'Led by Shepherds' with Jeffrey Rakabe

Jeffrey Rakabe explores his personal journey through his book 'Led by Shepherds'  on this episode of The Podcast. The book blends memoir and social critique, reflecting on masculinity, culture, and healing, while sparking dialogue on tradition, identity, and change. 

Led by Shepherds begins with twelve-year-old Jeffrey Rakabe leaving his village to attend an initiation ceremony, believing it to be the key to his manhood. But the weeks-long rite of passage in the mountains is a far cry from the adventure he’d imagined. Years later, as a student, Rakabe discovers the nurturing world of books and thrives within the hush of the Johannesburg Public Library. The presence of caring women in his life, from his concerned mother and supportive partner to a librarian who feeds his intellectual curiosity with a steady supply of literature, spur Rakabe to investigate the possible links between the koma ritual, awash with misogynistic language, and gender-based violence in SA.

Part memoir, part manifesto, Led by Shepherds is a moving, vital and controversial book and Jeffrey Rakabe a brave voice for a new generation.

The Podcast:
Camera: Mluleki Dlamini & Siyabonga Meyiwa
Sound: Sibusiso 'Dust' Nkosi
Editing: Mluleki Dlamini & Kwenza Trevor Masinga
Co-ordinator: Phumelele Khambule
Host: Nongcebo Vukile McKenzie

Contact: info@nvmckenzie.co.za
View episodes on YouTube : Link ➡️ https://youtube.com/@nvmckenzie?si=y8ZcaOQ0yYqjGhA8

Disclaimer:
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The Podcast is not responsible and cannot be held liable for any damages resulting from reliance on the content provided through the channel's content. All content is provided without warranty.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:21

Our guest on this episode of the podcast is Jeffrey Ratame. In his book, Led by Shepherds, Jeffrey investigates the possible links between initiation school rituals, which are awash with misogynistic language and gender-based violence in South Africa. This book asks urgent, incisive questions of us as a society. What does it mean to be a man? How can we remake rather than abandon cultural practices that perpetuate harmful norms? And how do we realize a safer South Africa for its women and children? Its part memoir, its part manifesto, led by shepherds, is a timely and controversial text by Jeffrey Raknabe, who asks brave and essential questions for a new generation. My name is Nongrebu Vukile Mackenzie. Ngiawam Gail, welcome to the podcast. Our guest on this episode of the podcast is Jeffrey Raknabe. He's the author of the book Led by Shepherds. Jeffrey, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26

Good morning, thank you for saying that to me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29

I always love how uh people who aren't um guni speaking, and actually some who aren't guny speaking, how they pronounce my name, they always separate the g and the c. And it's always, I don't know, there's something so so soft because when you say non-glebo, it's very guttural. It's non-glebo. But when you separate the g and the c it's nong, it sounds so it's it softens it somehow. Yeah, um, Jeffrey, the title of your book, led by shepherds. That's an interesting title.

SPEAKER_00: 2:01

Yeah, it is. Yeah. So it's a title that we worked on with my publisher. So actually, the in the beginning, I named my manuscript the women brought books, uh, based on the two women in my life who've helped me write this book, uh, which is my partner and my librarian. So that's the point where we're working on the manuscript, and we kind of uh changed it to fit the narrative of the book, and we ended on led by shepherd to kind of um put everybody who've worked with me throughout this book and who have guided me and who have shepherded me. Um but mostly it's about uh gender interdependence in terms of me leaning on the people who have helped me, particularly the women in my life. Yes, that's how the title uh came about and what it means, the book and to my life and to the story and the journey all in all.

SPEAKER_02: 3:06

So the book is set against the backdrop of your experience at initiation school. Yes, to use that term that we've become used to initiation school. And that is obviously something that is very male and very masculine, and the focus of it is not about the experience of initiation school, it's about how that informs the view of women.

SPEAKER_01: 3:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 3:42

Now I'm looking at this at in terms of the title, Led by Shepherds, and I'm wondering, you are from a very rural area and you grew up as a rural boy, rural young man, although you're now in Johannesburg. Yes in your part of the world, are there ever any female shepherds?

SPEAKER_00: 4:18

Men are always the shepherd, men are always uh always the leader, and women are just doing the following, and even them too, they are just um led by men. So, in terms of shepherding the part of my world, I don't think so, because even when I wanted to go to the initiation and my mother wanted to stop me, she couldn't. You know, and as a young, arrogant, stubborn, peer-preisured boy, I did not want her as a woman to step my way, you know. So she was no longer my mother, she was a woman, so there was that separation between me and her that I wanted to be a man. You don't understand how this is important to me. So you are a woman. So I need to be do this transition from boyhood to manhood to kind of I wanted to be led by the men, you know. That's something that I grew up looking up to, and that's something that we are indoctrinated and domesticated into as little boys. That we must look to the male shepherd from leadership than the women from, you know. So that's something that was important mostly.

SPEAKER_02: 5:34

So your mom tried to stop you from going to initiation school because she kept on insisting that you were young because you were 12. Yes. And obviously, the world of initiation school is very closeted, and the experiences there, they from what we hear, they are they form a kind of brotherhood because you will hear people saying, Oh, I know so and so, we were at initiation school together, and that becomes quite a close bond because of the experiences that are shared there, life-changing experiences, life-threatening experiences as well. Now, what is it that women know about initiation school that makes them so uncomfortable with it? What is it that women have heard? What is it that women have seen? What is it that women have an intuition about when it comes to initiation school that makes them reluctant to send their sons to initiation school? The reason I ask that is because it's not supposed to be spoken about. It's very closeted, it's very clandestine, it's very secretive, it's very, you know, what happens at initiation school stays at initiation school. But somehow women are have an awareness of I'm not so sure about my son going there at such an early age, the things that are gonna happen to him there. Where does that awareness come from?

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

That's a good question. And in my part of my world, that awareness is so hidden in my mind. So they try to pretend like they don't know. You know, even though what they have had is not confirmed, but they kind of have some perspection on maybe what is going on in the fate stories and everything. So my mother tried to stop me first in 2003. I wanted to go in 2003, and she said I was young, she tried to bug me with a bicycle.

unknown: 7:35

So from 2006, she still refused. I think saying that I was young was just an excuse. She did not want me to go at all.

SPEAKER_00: 7:44

And even though I never asked asked her that what is it that you know about me initiation that you are protecting me from, she she could never tell me that there was some kind of fear of something else as she has been there herself, herself, you know. But I think women know that in there is not a good place for young boys and for for innocent-minded little men that somehow they can't stop uh us from going there. We yarn for it. But I think I got the same question when I was doing a launch, when this woman said a boy is going in the Eastern Cape initiation this year, and she wants to prevent her boy from going, but as a woman, she's she's trying to her place. I think uh what is going on is that it's a brilliant place, we all know, and it's harmful to the little boys we all know, and women know too, but because of their position in a patriarchal cultural village, the the their voices are are not heard, and they have no choice in what happens to the boys. And even as the boys, we we do not want to listen to our mothers. But I think they know what is going on in the initiation, even though it was never confirmed by us, the men, but and they know that is horrible. And whatever us young boys who've been told in the lies of how beautiful it is in there, they know it is a lie, but we believe the lies more than our mothers' fear, tears, and our their protection.

SPEAKER_02: 9:20

So you say in the book, yes, I have become a traitor. I'm the guy who decided that honesty, no matter how uncomfortable, was worth more than holding on to an outdated tradition that is eating us. Men and women alive. Would I do it again? Absolutely. Because the alternative is an endless cycle of suffering, shame, and silence. Unbearable. Yeah. You say it's eating us alive. How come? Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_00: 9:53

Boys are dying every year, you know. You you you you we we had boys who died during the initiation in Indian purple this year, in June. We're still gonna have initiates who are going to die in Eastern Cape this year, come November, December initiations. And we have uh a very bad role model in the form of how men are behaving in this country. And such kind of traditions where they are being uh protected by the government, by civil society today, they are being celebrated as if it's a new thing at the cost of young boys who are losing their manhood by losing their lives. No one is saying anything about that, and no one even wants us to ask questions as to what is this initiation about and how does its teaching uh impact society and young men, you know? So it's kind of worrying. That's why in my in my book, what I wanted to find uh out was the link between is there what we is there a link between traditional male initiation and gender-based violence in this country? And what we're dying for as boys, why why can't we go to hospital and get circumcised and rather than going to the male initiation and lose our men who would go through abuse and uh traumatized and made to sing vulgar songs about women, this hateful tradition that is uh celebrated as this big African institution that we have to go through whether we like it or not.

SPEAKER_02: 11:29

Until I read your book, and I admit obviously that my knowledge, information, exposure to the world of initiation schools is beyond highly limited.

SPEAKER_01: 11:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 11:43

But I was even more shocked to realize that boys who die at initiation school don't get buried at home. I I didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_00: 11:54

I think that there was uh I read this article when I was doing my research. There was this boy to, I don't remember which initiation he was in, but it was here in South Africa where he was buried there. So that's how they treat the coward, the failed, you know. You are a failed man, so you're not supposed to be part of the society.

unknown: 12:13

You know, that's how it goes about. It's shame, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 12:16

Not you failed with the ritual, not that the ritual failed you. And that's how we're framing these arguments today when boys die in initiation school. The media frame this as illegal schools. So they're trying to shift the blames that the ritual is perfect, it's just that it's a legal school. So for me, all initiation schools are illegal schools. So you you get buried there. So the ritual ate you. You know, you failed to be a man, you failed to be strong. So you shouldn't come back to society to be buried, you should be, you shouldn't be mourned, and even how it is introduced to your family, it's in a brutal manner. So I think that's what our mothers fear. That's what our our our the women in our lives fear what will happen to us, that we don't know how brutal this thing is. So your life is not guaranteed when you go there. You might die and you might be buried in shame.

SPEAKER_02: 13:15

Now, going there at the age of 12. Yes, that sounds like a very tender age. So, what's the standard age though? Is there a standard age, or are you supposed to go when you feel ready, or what's the process for identifying that a young man is now ready to go to initiation school?

SPEAKER_00: 13:47

So, right now, when they register their initiation school, they say the age is 12, even though I don't believe that the boys will go there, all of them are 12. When I see teachers of initiation this year, I doubt that some of the boys are uh are 12 years old. So there's no proper age. So in my initiation as opposed to Eastern Cape, Eastern Cape, they go when they're a little bit old. So we when in part of the world they need little boys so that that domestication and that indoctrination, those teachings, so that they can guard you at an early age. So I think it's between you and your family, you know. You can go even when you're 10, you can go even when you're 11, 12, 13, but we go early as young because there's this shame in my village again that would you go to initiation with my own disembarcing. So you need to go as early as possible.

SPEAKER_02: 14:38

So going as early as possible, and considering this in the context of how you framed your mother's reluctance in the book, because you articulated in the book to reflect that she wasn't afraid that you would fail, but she wasn't afraid that you would come back a stranger. That for me was a bit of a because if you are twelve, you're not really at an age where you have discovered who you are. You're not at an age where your parents have come to know you fully as who you fully could be in terms of your personality. And then you go to initiation school and you become a stranger, but you were not known in the context of now a young man because you were still a boy.

SPEAKER_01: 15:34

I'm still down, yes, yes, I understand you.

SPEAKER_02: 15:37

That sounds very scary.

SPEAKER_00: 15:41

As opposed to uh uh uh Eastern Cape initiation, uh our initiation, most importantly, the main thing is not only about removing Tolkien and the circumcision, it's about the whole series of events that goes on the first week, the second week, and the third week. Uh can you hear me? Yes.

unknown: 16:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 16:06

So when when when I get in the when we get in the initiation, we we we we lose our names. You know, we the you are no longer yourself, and we are called by a name that we're all given, which is Wiga in our in our language. I think in in in in the Eastern case, it's if I'm pronouncing that correctly. Yeah, so that that that that that that is when we begin to become strangers of our own selves, you know. And that that that that that breaking up of ourselves and that mod that building up of new men that we do not recognize it, that is a problem. And I'm saying it's a problem because that building up and I mean that breaking down and building up, it is done unaware. That we we we we are not sure what is going on, and we are not sure what we are absorbing, what we're being taught, and what is being made of us. And that is what I think my mother feared that I'll come back as a stranger because in there you're not just going to get circumcised, like you know, you're going to be remoulded. So you come back here, I'm afraid that you'll come back a changed person. I'll come, I'm afraid you'll come back here as a person whom I don't know anymore. So I think that kind of uh uh remoulding of new men in in young men, it's it's it's it's dangerous and it should be questioned because one thing you you're not supposed to question, things can get to be referred in different names. You need you you're given in a new language to refer to things. So I think we are all strangers when we come from that initiation, even though we are aware or not. As an it is done in an early age. I think even for me, I realized later on in my life when I have to sit down and think about what happened with me when I was there, what was I singing, what was that, what did that mean? So, yeah, that's when I realized. So that's how good the domestication and the indoctrination works because you you are unaware and you want to look stoic, you know, you want to celebrate even though you're hurt and look good in front of society and those men, you want to interest them.

SPEAKER_02: 18:22

So some would maybe view that as the breaking down of any preconceived notion that you can individuate, that you can, you know, go and chase flights of fancy, and that the whole point of awakening your masculinity is to ground you in the fact that you are supposed to be a man, a man that is unswayable, that a man that knows what he stands for. And maybe you know, some would justify even the singing of the derogatory songs, not from an angle of demeaning women, but from an angle of saying, as a man, you need to know what you stand for, and you need to be able to lead a family, lead a community, lead in whatever context without being swayable, without being influenced in a way that would, for lack of a better word, weaken you. Maybe that would be their argument. And maybe the whole argument would be that because the world is not an easy place to navigate, that's why they try to toughen young boys. And you know, we all know that with age, well, you're still a young man still, but with age we face problems where you're like, hi, no men, I is this what being an adult is about? And maybe the whole point of putting young boys through that tough experience of transition is so that they have got a reference point for difficulty that would then give them the mental fortitude. Maybe that would be an argument. I I I have no stance on initiation schools um either for or against. I have very limited, very, very limited um exposure and understanding. So this is just a conversation as to the different perspectives, perhaps?

SPEAKER_00: 20:42

Oh, I don't think so. No, it's not you know, maybe I do not agree with that, you know. Um I think I think we we have a problem in in relation to men who get masculinity, and I don't think it's a proper place to put boys uh through that process, say we are building them for anything of how they should face life and everything. Yeah, I think I think main initiation, whether AD, Tonga, Soto, Tosa, for me, um, I think it it's a it is cool for green stupid things.

unknown: 21:18

That's what I hope.

SPEAKER_00: 21:20

And I think um they they they okay, if if if it's that case when we we they need to prepare us, why why when I swear uh using the main private parts, it's a it's a it's a problem. And but I when I swear using the female private parts, then celebration. So I think why don't we do them both? I think what you said is this male bonding, you said this is the beginning, this male bonding that is dangerous, that is uh uh dangerous to to society as a whole, that we as men we protect each other no matter how foolish we are. We protect each other. We need to protect each other most importantly against women. You need to always be dominant to women, you need to know your position. So I don't think it's a good thing to tell me that uh I mean at a 12 years old that after circumcision, my penis is a spear. What is the spear? That organization of male private part that we need to ourselves by the size of our genitals as boys and boys are waiting to have sex. I mean, girls are waiting to have sex with us when we get home, that we need to equity. I did not know what sex is when I was 12 years old, you know, and that that's what they told me. That pressure of having sex at any age, you see, that's what they were implanting in my in my head. That the you you go through this initiation, you're not done. When you get home, the final stage is for you to have sex, you know. And what kind of sex I'm being taught that I need to take it, you know. That's how men do this kind of thing. So I do not need to wait for it. So women are props, you know, there are things for us to use, and they they we own our speed that we will have been sharpening in in in in many initiation. So I I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02: 23:09

So it it's from uh your interpretation, and uh this is my interpretation of your interpretation, um it the the building up is the building up of a certain level of ingrained, should I say hatred towards women?

SPEAKER_00: 23:32

Hatred towards women, yes. Unaware though, but we are unaware, you know. But when we sing that a black woman is a witch, which has meaning, and you compare that with what is happening in terms of gender-based violence in this country, you're like, we shouldn't continue to sing about that, you know. So if if we are we have a problem right now that men can take a women's training, I think we should stop singing those kind of songs in that initi in those kind of initiations. You know, it's very much important that what boys are being taught to view women as it's something that we need to uh always try to scrutinize and and and and and see if it's good that boys have proper role models and those kind of initiations be used to to kind of help us in a society in terms of the problems and challenges that we have in terms of gender-based violence and abuse and so on and so on.

SPEAKER_02: 24:32

So you say in the book I had a problem with the whole idea of being a man in a world that seemed hell-bent on using that masculinity as a means of hurting people. Now, when we say that that masculinity was being used or the lessons of masculinity were being used, may I say teach how to hurt, or how to invalidate, or how to not feel bad about hurting. There are instances, not there are instances, we live in a very diverse country, and not all our people are people who go to initiation school. And yet we still see high levels of GBV, of all kinds of horribleness, actually. You know, I mean you we can use as many descriptive words as we want to see, as we want to use. And a person could argue, and again, I am at pains to explain that I have absolutely no view, stance, or opinion, and I'm highly unqualified. I'm not a man, so I'm highly unqualified from that point of view to either encourage or discourage the idea of initiation school. I do not know what it does to a person. I do not know, I I don't know anything about the experience that that I could that would make me have any opinion on it. So these are just, you know, again, points of discussion around the the issue. When we then transmute it to GBV, that an argument that could be raised would then be, okay, if we're attributing this hatred, this learned hatred towards the other gender and towards those who are not deemed to be masculine enough, even if they are male, and those who are of same sex orientation, and those who do not go to initiation school, and we therefore then pull them all together as a group of people who are weaklings. Why is that then observable across demographics, including those who then do not go to initiation schools? Yeah. You know, a person could raise that argument.

SPEAKER_00: 27:13

Of course, and it's a valid argument. And one of the points that I make is that whether you come from initiation school or you do not come from initiation school based on your tribe or your culture, but the boys, they all believe we all believe in the same things that were taught in initiation school. It's that us who went through initiation school, is that we went to get our certificate there. But we do where those who went and those who did not go there, we all believe in the same thing, you know. Everything we've been taught in initiation is the very same thing that these other men too who have not gone through this initiation, they believe in what we believe too. Is that still it's just that we absorbed it, we went to school for it, we we we it was validated. It was it was validated. We graduated, we went there and learned it for three weeks. So we we we we are the leaders of it all, but we we all believe in it, you know. Every man, whether it comes from initiation or not initiation, but you believe that men are superior for women, you know. You believe that men should be leaders as opposed to women, all those kind of things. So we stand up for each other. When when there's a gender-based violence case, men come together, whether coming from initiation or not, and come and justify why the men killed the women and or why the women needed to die. So we stand together, we stand up for each other. So whether we come from initiation or not, we still believe in toxic masculinity, all of us.

SPEAKER_02: 28:40

When you speak about Kamuchelo, you speak about her in in a way that does not make her seem like a female. You speak you you you speak about her of course you refer to her as she. You say she made me see that strength didn't have to be loud, tough or unshakable. For her, it was something else entirely softer, quieter, and honest. She showed me a version of manhood that didn't involve flexing muscles or clinging to traditions that no longer made sense.

SPEAKER_01: 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 29:44

Now is this not the thing that they were warning you against in initiation school?

SPEAKER_00: 29:57

Oh my god, uh exactly. No, it's that is the very exact things that they were women me for the past three weeks in initiation when I was 12. So they were like, you see, don't ever allow that. So it's the opposite of being a man. Yeah. So yeah, my partner is the person who played a very big role in my life. You know, there was a point in our relationship where she was the one who was working, and I was not working, or I just graduated and did not know what to do with my life. And I she guided me, and I just took my life and put and put it in my hands, and she did not feel burdened and I did not feel emasculated. But she wakes up in the morning to go to work, and I'm still trying to figure out my life, and she encouraged me a lot. So those are the kind of things that uh as a man, if I say this in front of other men, they're going to laugh at me. You know, I'm going to be referred as a weak man and all those kind of things that uh that men are ashamed of. That uh my partner helped me, you know, and uh she guided me. I think she's the reason that I wrote this book. And at other moments she challenged me and she she she kind of pushed me and blamed me for for the kind of gender-based violence and femicide cases that were happening in this country. So she pushed me to search deep in myself as to how as a man am I complicit uh uh in what is happening in this country? Now I at some point I was frustrated and I was like, You blaming me? I'm not doing anything, but you are a man, so all men uh you know need to stand up and do something. So, yes, she's a wonderful person, very wonderful.

SPEAKER_02: 31:38

Now, what is it about having a supportive partner that makes a man weak?

SPEAKER_00: 31:50

So I think we we need to learn that kind of gender. I think that's the problem that we have as men, you know, that gender interdependence, you cannot fix everything alone. That's the reason why we have problems in this country. And I think men are we are afraid that if a woman comes to take care of me, I will not be able to control her anymore. Because I want to control you when I'm dating you or when I'm in a relationship with you, you know. And as a man, again, how will my mother and my father look at me? That I'm being taken care of, you know, even our feminists play a role in this kind of shaming as boys or men that I'm not working and uh my partner is doing this for me, you know. So it's kind of they're saying you're you're you're married by a woman. Why can't a woman marry me if I can marry her? So we need to talk about that too, you know. So that kind of shaming needs to stop. It needs to stop because it's harmful. That's why we have so many boys who are committing suicides than women, you know, because we want to carry everything on our own, and we feel when women are doing things for us or women are working, we are under attack. Our men who our manhood and our malehood is under attack, you know, men need to always be on top and not only to lead but to subjugate women. You know, they need to hear from us, they need to learn from us, they need to be led for they need we need to leave them. You know, I think it's some kind of competition that we have with women, and women don't know. And we want to win this race or we lose our lives.

SPEAKER_02: 33:24

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 33:26

You know, that is the problem that we have. But there are good women, so women have categories. I mean, men have categorized women as lay queens, you know, she wants something, this and this and this. And I think the problem is us because when I'm proposing a girl, the first thing that I'm telling you is not that I love you, is that what I will do for you? And when she comes back to say I want something, I'm like, you see, she loves men. But that's how I proposed you. I did not say I love you. I said I can do this and this and this for you. And you come to Lord and say, I want this and this and this, I'm I'm pretty, I'm saying, look, there's no way I knew you don't love me, you want things. But that's how I started the relationship. I think we have a low self-esteem and we want to hide by uh blaming women. That is therefore that our lives are in that place, are in a horrible space and a bad place. I think we need to listen, we need to, we need to share with our partner, and we need to not see women as evil spirits that are here to destroy our lives and that separate us from our mothers. That's one thing that is important uh uh and most dangerous about us boys that we believe that our partners and our wives need to separate us from our mothers. You know, the the there's a kind of competition between the mother and my wife, and um I'm I'm I'm putting fire to it. You know, yeah. So no man must lead. I do not want to lead. I I I want to work hand in hand with my partner, and there there are moments in life where she's gonna lead and need to be learned, you know. That's how I'm going to learn and everything.

SPEAKER_02: 35:07

What is interesting for me is that what you are presenting is often taken as the modern view, right? Yeah, yeah. Where it is taken as the modern view. It's taken as as the modern view, and when you contrast that with you know the previous generation and generations before that, yes, there was an interdependence, but that interdependence was very subtle.

SPEAKER_00: 35:39

Can I ask you a question so that you can maybe put this together? So what what about in a position where because it's it's a problem even if a women is anymore, both men and women are working. So what about that that yeah?

SPEAKER_02: 35:53

Again, this is the argument that's propagated, right? This is the argument that's presented when we say women and men, and we look at their interaction and we look at again gender interdependence. Yes, and we say, you know what, we need to work together. Of course we do. Yes. Maybe in different ways for different people, um, maybe in a different way to how society was before. We live in a completely different world. Our needs are different, circumstances are different, we face different problems, we face different challenges, we face different opportunities, right?

SPEAKER_01: 36:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:32

So again, that's how it's viewed. That the the the woman, if she's earning more, it should not be known. It should not be known. It should not be known. If she's earning 40,000 and the husband is earning 10,000 and she's paying for the bond, it's their secret. Because once you expose, you then diminish the authority in the house. And by diminishing the authority of the house, you displace the system or you confuse the system. And when again, as it happens, especially when you've got children in the equation, there will be conflict, there will be all of those things, and then you're creating a situation where and you will hear this often. So the point that I'm getting at is maybe that's why it's seen, it's viewed with such opposition, what you propagate, that you know, let's have this gender interdependence and let's displace the rituals that place one gender above the other.

SPEAKER_00: 37:39

Yeah, I think about the the the the the argument on Israel just highlighted that point that women aspirate brides, you know. It's all about us, you know. How many women have cars that they give the mental drive just to make him more dignified and everything? You know, I feel like women are caring a lot. Um someone somehow it has to be about us, you know. Yes, maybe that could be an argument, you know. It's it's reasonable, it's sound, but I feel I feel like we we need to get to a point where we get to take that argument and look at it from the from the women's point of view too. Because it's always their fault. That's why we want to take them out of jobs, that's why we want to, that's why we want to take them out of higher positions, you know, because we we are I think we are very insecure. And even though uh me and my partner are in a relationship that she's aiming more and I'm aiming less, even though we are putting that conversation and that argument in our bedrooms, as we know, but every now and then I'm going to use the argument because you see, because because you have a lot of money more than me. So it's I think there's that insecurity in you, you know, and and in terms of authority in the family, that's another big question. What is authority in the family? I think authority in the family, it means men must not cook, men must not clean, men must not wash children, you know, men, you know, so it's it's it's that that is authority, you know, because th those are uh uh a women's uh women's job, you know. But I don't think I don't think so. But as you say, you're you're putting some uh uh um uh uh a contextual psychological point of view. Um I think they need to look at that or maybe uh uh read, but I think but we can try, you know. I don't think we we we we we always have to make men feel good. You know, they just need to learn to be good about who they are and not make women feel bad, you know. It's not women's fault. It's not my fault as a man that my partner tells the women she's working and she's providing. And I think the women as men we have low self-esteem. That's low self-esteem. If I feel like my children look down on me because their mother is working, but when the woman is not working and I'm working, why can't the women say it feels like my children look down on me because you as a woman you are working? You know, so it's it's a big debate, and I think both sides need to be a bad thing is that no men are not special about anything, just need to be equal from the women, and life reckons all of us. Men and women are all unemployed, and they go through uh uh uh different, different challenges in life, and we are the ones who are complaining, the game is rigged against us, you know. And the most important thing is that we are men, you know. That's my argument. You know, so what what do I do in that situation where my partner is working, I'm not working, I cheat in here. And when she asks, why is that but I'm a man? I don't feel welcome at home. What did I do? Nothing, it's just that I should be the one who's working, not you. You see that the problems are amongst the i mean, you know, we need to fix that.

SPEAKER_02: 41:01

But you know, if we juxtapose that against the essence of your book, I think you are highlighting two distinct but equally important things here. If we look at the context of your argument with regard to, should I say, the psychological warfare that initiation school prepares you for, it one, the derogatory songs in in terms of your experience, because you know somebody else might raise a different argument. So these things are subjective. Yeah. If you look at it in in that context, what you're saying, or what I'm hearing you say, is that one, it creates a situation where it subjugates men, rather subjugates women relative to men. So it elevates men's authority, not on merit, but purely on gender lines.

SPEAKER_01: 41:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 41:52

But what it does, what I'm hearing you say is it does not foster emotional development in men where they can learn to stand in their manhood. Their manhood has to stand on something, it has to trample something for it to fully flourish. And what I'm hearing you say is that the approach, the current approach, and from your experience of initiation schools, it's a breeding ground for that kind of mentality and that kind of brotherhood mentality where your mistakes will be sheltered and they'll be covered and you know, men stick together, men band together. But it also then displaces the ability for men to realize the added value that a woman could bring to his life beyond cooking, beyond children, beyond intimacy, physical intimacy. But the emotional, the the mental, the mental contribution that you get from being with somebody. You want somebody, as you say, like challenges you to you know, consider things. Have you thought of this? Have you thought of that? You know? Of course, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 43:00

And and that's what male initiation is about, you know. It doesn't foster courage, it doesn't foster growth, it doesn't foster all the good things that we want to look for in a in a man. So the most important thing is to separate us from women and make us hate women even further and want to stamp on them even forever, you know. So that's why we through, I mean, during the initiation, women are not supposed to wear pants, you know, they're not supposed to gather in groups. So we want to uh uh feel uh even more important in their lives, even when we are not with them. You know, it's about controlling them, and there's that kind of intimidation. And you know, it's just a bad organization that that that has been put in place since time has not been challenged, you know, and it's not fostering the good in us as boys who are not being taught anything that is good about being a man. We're taught here that if you don't do this as a man, you're going to lose this, you know. So you kind of cling to this fear of am I failing as a man? Am I failing as a man as to oppose what what is what is it to be a man and uh what what can I do with my life and my manhood, you know? So uh is it's that thing that um challenging about initiation school. Not that we need to abolish it, but we need to kind of teach boys to to to to be better boys, you know. There's nothing is perfect, but we need to kind of be better in in our approach to the world, life and and and and our relationship with women.

SPEAKER_02: 44:42

So you say they called circumcision a death and a rebirth. Nice metaphor. Except what kind of rebirth demands that you cut away the parts of yourself that ask questions, that wonder, that feel. If this was supposed to make me stronger, why did I feel so small? Every rule, every cut, every blow, every silence seemed designed to erase me. My curiosity, my softness, my ability to just be human. So, how do you, in your view, think that we could improve on this model, shall I say? You know, what what what is what is your view, what is your take, and what is what is your view on its place in society as a kind of facilitation of some kind of bond. Yeah, whether we we label the bond negative or positive, but there are people in communities, especially in rural communities, that because you were there for me at initiation school, like your shepherd. I mean, he put the herbs on you, he helped you. I'm sure you would do anything for him. So it's created that bond because he literally saved your life. Now, multiply those experiences. There are people who into their old age show up for each other, and that was born at initiation school. There are people into an old age, they will take care of each other's children, handle each other's burdens, you know, where there are traditional functions, you know, would there are distinct roles that are given to men and women, boys and girls. And you will find that the a certain grouping was formed through this bond of initiation school. So it helps, it weaves the fabric of society together, right? So I think there is also that acknowledgement of how it becomes an essential in this tapestry, especially, especially of rural life. And you will find these bonds, you know, even evident. You'll meet somebody in Johannesburg, in Cape Town, in Durban, and last time I saw you, we were in the bush together, yeah, and this is your brother for life, and you are now protected from certain elements because of that bond that was formed. So, you know, how how how do we navigate this?

SPEAKER_00: 47:16

Yeah, that's a big question. So I I'm I'm not saying we should abolish uh initiation schools, of course, they are they are part of the people's identity, you know, culture and everything. But all I'm saying is that uh we we let's question, you know, let's question what our cultures mean, and and and we need to make it open for everyone to know, uh especially this male initiation that is so problematic, as you say, initiation death and everything, which have failed this money, nobody's been able to stop that. So my um I'm saying which in the sense of I think we're going in a in a in a in a in a in a terrible direction as a country because uh when when when when these rituals are being questioned, the government responded uh and people responded in a way in which that the the the culture is being is under attack from from from Western people who wants to wants to demolish wants to demolish this culture. So what did they what did they do? Instead of opening the the the the curtain for all of us to learn, to question, to to to to find meaning, they protected it and in in that way they protected the deaf. We cannot know what killed the boys, you know, so it becomes a secret. So I'm saying I'm saying all those bad teachings that I I talk about in my in my in my in my book, they cannot be referred to culture, they need to be removed, and in them, I think our culture needs to evolve. In them comes uh uh proper development and proper teaching that is alpha for the boys and that is alpha for society as a whole. And that's something that we do not want to talk about. The most uh uh depressing thing about these rituals, this culture is that we do not even want to talk about. It is the way it is, you know. And we need to challenge culture, we need to test it, you know, so it cannot stay as it is, and and uh whereas it's it's problematic, and the question of boyhood and menhood is a big topic throughout the world, and in this country where men are doing horrible things to women, and that kind of initiation that is about male masculinity and men stands alone without being questioned. I think I'm saying remove the bad things, remove the bad things and the bad teachings, and come on, involve women because being in a room with men only teaches you how to perform masculinity, you know, not how to be a human. So we need women need to be involved in this process because they are the mothers. You know, they need to know what happens to their child, they need to know you know what what is this song, what is this poem, what have you been taught in there, and what they say, even about me, about your father, you know, and how how how does it impact us as a nation? I don't think there's a way that it impacts us. You can we can keep the child, but I don't think there's a way that it it impacts us or uh help to our identity and in our pride as a nation. It has cost us harm. You know, it has cost us pain, it has cost us our beloved sons. And as you just said, it it has some bonding, good bonding that we have with our shepherds and everything. And you know, so remove the bad and keep what is good. That's all I'm asking.

SPEAKER_02: 50:45

I love how you say if you're only in a room with men, you only learn how to be masculine.

SPEAKER_01: 50:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:54

And if you're in a room with men and women, you learn how to be human.

SPEAKER_00: 50:59

You learn how to be human.

SPEAKER_02: 51:01

Thank you, Jeffrey.

SPEAKER_00: 51:04

Thank you, Nina. It was good talking to you.

SPEAKER_02: 51:06

And thank you for listening to this episode of the podcast. Remember, you can like, rate, and share this podcast on the channel you're listening on.