Gugulethu Xaba on Rural Economic Development

In this episode, Nongcebo Mckenzie is joined by Gugulethu Xaba, an entrepreneur and development strategist with nearly 15 years of experience in business development across multiple sectors.

Gugulethu is the founder of several organisations, including the Moonlight Economic Development Forum (MEDF) and the Lighthouse Economic Development Institute (LEDI)—two NPOs with extensive networks supporting youth, women, and emerging entrepreneurs.

Together, they explore the realities and opportunities of rural economic development, strategies for empowering communities in South Africa and the broader SADC region and the long-term vision for economic growth across the African continent

A powerful discussion on building sustainable economic ecosystems and unlocking the potential of rural communities.

The Podcast:
Camera: Mluleki Dlamini & Siyabonga Meyiwa
Sound: Sibusiso 'Dust' Nkosi
Editing: Mluleki Dlamini
Co-ordinator: Phumelele Khambule
Host: Nongcebo Vukile McKenzie

Contact: info@nvmckenzie.co.za
View episodes on YouTube : Link ➡️ https://youtube.com/@nvmckenzie?si=y8ZcaOQ0yYqjGhA8

Disclaimer:
Some content may include sensitive topics and discussions, listener discretion is advised. The intention is not to offend but to provide information. Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics. The content on this podcast does not constitute financial, legal, medical, or any other professional advice. Users should consult with the relevant professionals for specific advice related to their situation.

The Podcast is not responsible and cannot be held liable for any damages resulting from reliance on the content provided through the channel's content. All content is provided without warranty.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:09

I am Nongrebo Vugele Mackenzie, and this is the podcast, Soulborn. Every fortnight, a guest joins us for a conversation or to share a story. It's a pleasure to share these with you and to have you with us. Welcome, Gawamgael, to another episode of Nonglebo Mackenzie, the podcast. On this episode of the podcast, we are talking all things economic development. We're looking at it with our guest, Okukuletu Kaba, of Amand Lomnot. And of course, it's a pleasure to see you. It's been a long time. It's been a long time.

SPEAKER_03: 0:56

It's a pleasure to see you too.

SPEAKER_04: 0:57

Thank you for joining us on this episode of the podcast. So, Aman Lomnot.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01

When you say the name Kukuletu Kaba, it's synonymous with Amanlum Not. Let's talk about it conceptually. The driving force behind Amanlum Not.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10

The driving force is coming from the position that uh we all know about as South Africans, which is our political um economic uh space, right? Whereafter 94, I think each of us, especially as young people, um wanted to look at what does one need to do and contribute. Um others went into politics, academia, and all of that. So we were very young, of course, um when 94 happened. And uh I sat down just to look at where my contribution can be as a person. Um and that's where this whole Amandham Noto came about because it was a question of after political independence, what is the next important thing? And and that's economy. That's economic emancipation of our people. Of course, this is thought uh by uh it's thought through by somebody who's just young, inexperienced, who doesn't really have much knowledge about even this subject, but somehow because we were politicized as we were growing up and we knew that uh what we were fighting for in the main was just not to be um sharing space uh in in the lavatories that used to be only for white people.

SPEAKER_04: 2:28

It goes beyond that.

SPEAKER_03: 2:29

It goes beyond that. It's a question of then what exactly do we need to do, which is more much more meaningful as a people and and and as active citizens for us to really make a meaningful contribution to our society. And that's it it was obviously an evolving process that ultimately culminated into Amanda Mnoto almost two decades ago to say, let's start this, let's have conversations and talk about how do we get into the economic space with learnings and relearnings and unlearnings as you're moving towards the the goal, and that's where we actually got to have Amanda Omnoto being born.

SPEAKER_04: 3:05

So let's look at the strategy of Amandlomnoto. You obviously have a lot of engagement, you all also have a lot of partnerships at different levels of government, private entities that uh obviously support the goals of Amandlomnoto. But let's talk about it strategically.

SPEAKER_03: 3:24

Yeah. Uh strategically Amandlomnoto is actually looking at um it's backed by research and development. Uh it's backed by the understanding of what exactly do we mean by economy. You know, uh theoretically, when you're talking economy, you are talking about uh uh sort of like means of production ownership. You are talking about different sectors of economy, uh primary, secondary, and tertiary sectors, and subsectors that fall under that. So, but a month of Noto is more centered around what exactly do we mean by the primary sector of economy and drilling deep into it, as well as understanding the ownership patterns of economy of our country. We know where we come from, we're sitting now at 62 million uh people, and in 1994 we're sitting at less than 40 million. So that's a the phenomenal growth that has happened in South Africa. But if you look at the the African natives, black people generally, if you are talking about the demography of South Africa, which is Africans, uh whites, colors, Indians, etc., you would uh I I regard why uh blacks, uh all of them as black, right, in terms of uh uh race, if you were to compare just white and and black people, you still have literally largely less than uh 10% of the economy owned by black people by and large. But if you were to drill deep into the into the the sector and specific subsectors of the economy, you see that ch the change and the transformation that was meant to be achieved through uh such legislation and legislative framework like BE and others have really been achieved, but to a very minimal degree, right? And for us, therefore, at Amanda Manota, is to try and dissect this and make it understood, understandable by somebody who is from Eku, who's from Guan Nongwam, who's from deep rural areas, who's from the townships, to understand what exactly do we mean by this so that we we become more much more uh actively involved and serious about when we we're talking economic development, economic emancipation, and we understand that we've got to crack that code open and be part of the real sectors that mean much more in driving the the political economy of our country.

SPEAKER_04: 5:47

So from that we obviously are talking about distribution, and I'm not gonna say wealth distribution, we're saying the distribution with regard to actually economy participating in the economy, because when you say that black people, in terms of actively participating and holding portions of the economy, that becomes very disturbing because when you look at the actual drivers of the economy, we see that every single morning, Abanda Bahamba, Ibe Mafemin Beo Sedenza, those are the people whose blood, sweat, and tears actually make the economy turn. But when you look at actually the distribution and holding the economy in the palm of their hands, you don't see that translating. But also from what you're saying, post-1994 came the birth of this wonderful person called the tenderpreneur, which obviously then has its own ramifications further down the line. And what that means is that if for whatever reason there were to be any changes in that with regard to legislation, it impacts an entire growth pattern in terms of what people perceived to be holding wealth, participating in the economy. And there's also the sustainability factor of that as well. So when you re-look that and you configure it in such a way that it's actual real tangible holding of economic factors, production factors, factors of production, it then really changes and makes it more understandable when we talk about economic transformation.

SPEAKER_03: 7:20

That's true. You see, Justin Jay, whilst on that, you if you're to look at the equation in mathematical terms, you've got the production side of the economy and the consumption side. And you look at uh where do we sit, largely as black people, we are more on the consumption side of economy. Uh something very interesting whilst you're talking about this whole ecosystem of economy, uh, which I've been looking at, for instance, is the question of uh uh the morals that are mass growing. South Africa, I think, is top five, top six countries globally with so many malls, right? Uh and and as a person who is an economic development specialist, when I am advising people and listening to people, you find that they want to start a mall, they want to start the shopping center and all of that. It shows that people's minds minds is more geared towards the consumption side of economy, such that their entrepreneurial outlook is more towards let's create something that's going to be consuming instead of something that's going to be producing, right? So the the consumption side of the economy must be anchored on the productive side of the economy so strongly so that you can be able to sustain. I I'm not a prophet of doom, but I just anticipate that when I'm casting a scenario down the road, the possibility of malls, quite a number of malls closing down, is very high because of the sustainability factor, which is where we are trying to bring people to to say you need to find we we must be part of the productive uh side of the economy. What do I mean? We need to produce from the primary production, for instance, just a simple example where we're producing uh uh you know guava, uh we're producing tomato, but we must then value add. That is now you are value adding, you are creating a processing facility uh to make sure that there is a much more value that you extract out of primary produce. And and and that alone is is it's just a a system that needs to be inculcated within our society uh for them to understand that it's not just about malls or shopping centers, but it's about the the juice that you are producing there. Where does it come from? It's about um the fruit that has been has to be converted, you know, it's about vegetables that have to be to be converted, it's about uh the shoes that have to be uh made and understanding that you've got to have a world-to-wall strategy of uh growing a kettle, slaughtering that kettle, having the skin utilized to form the bag as well as the shoes, and then moving to having these bones utilized to form basins and all sorts of stuff, having the meat uh processed, right? Because a cow alone would would cost maybe 15,000 rand, but once it's totally processed and is on the table, it's almost 100,000 Rand. You see, so it's about adding value to the same thing all the way through. So what we try, therefore, to do is to really educate systematically according to sector by sector, subsector by subsector. I think that is an education that for us is very, very crucial, especially in South Africa, with all the ills that are out there in the community and the challenges that our country faces, of unemployment, of ascetic poverty, of uh of really hunger and other stuff, and yet we've got the country uh and the land of plenty.

SPEAKER_04: 10:58

But also, if you really simplify it to its most basic terms, if you look at an unemployment rate, and if you look at our skills base, and if you look at what that skills base is able to earn and take home, and then you look at them all, there's a misalignment there. Because what are people going to spend when they are not working or they're working low-level jobs that essentially just mean that they can just barely survive? It's also just the the balancing of that equation. So the importance of the understanding and the ownership of the entire value chain becomes quite important. But also it what it then does is it necessitates a transforming of the skills base as well. Because once you change from primary factors of production to secondary factors of production, the skills that you need there, and if you're taking that to rural areas, through rural chambers of commerce, through Operation Buiele Kai, what it then does is it again now impacts another element, which is the rural to urban migration, which impacts what? Human settlement factors. So it really creates a huge ripple effect because take it to the most simplest thing, societal structure. If we can revive that societal structure of being able to be there and support each other because people aren't having to leave for work, there's a difference between choosing to leave for work and having to leave for work. And the reality of most of our rural areas is people have to leave. So when you are bringing all that and essentially decentralizing it to some extent, it then again has an impact on the social fiber of communities.

SPEAKER_03: 12:35

That's very true. You know, talking about the skills, we we have got um what, 51 Tibet colleges in this country. We've got universities, um, private and public universities, but maybe let's just bring it down to the Tibet colleges because by and large, those are found uh to be anchoring some of our rural spaces, um, even though they are in urban centers as well. Uh if if you choose to look at that and say, how do we utilize that institutional capacity that we have of Tibet? I know government is busy trying to do some forms of transformation and assisting this to fit into the work and the job world, as it were. But more than anything else, I think we need to have an entrepreneurial ecosystem of a country, you know, where you are turning the country into an ecosystem of entrepreneurship, which means there is innovation that should happen, which means there is creativity that must happen, which means there is risk taking that must happen. Those are tinnets of entrepreneurship. That's very, very crucial. Um and and practical, what do I mean by this? I just I was in China last year and we're studying some of the models that are working there, which has helped China to really leapfrog into the first world country in a generation and uplift over 750 million people out of poverty in a generation. That's phenomenal. But what makes it tick, what makes it more nuanced, what makes it more successful in China is a model that I think, because we are part of members of BRICS, needs to study even more closer. But but then bring it back home in terms of what needs to be done within our Tibet colleges. I'll make an example. You know, some factories in China they operate within the Tibet uh system.

SPEAKER_01: 14:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 14:21

Right. Which means you will have uh BYD, you will have your Havali and other uh big names and brands operating within a Tibet College, but signing a partnership agreement with that particular Tibet College and making sure that they they cut down the cost to the bone in terms of producing their product, which is the car that you and I drive now, electricity-wise as well as labor-wise, because they absorb students who are technical oriented to be part of this uh uh manufacturing facilities, an example. And therefore, they they drive down costs. And then you come, you go there and want to put up a plant uh that is gonna cost you hundred times more than what Chinese uh, for instance, what it costs them to produce, and then you think you're gonna compete with them. But such a model is an example. It makes a lot of sense because that that that talks to the the creativity, that talks to the innovation, that talks to how do you utilize these Tivat institutions as factory spaces, and that must be driven from the top in terms of the Department of Higher Education and Training as an example. Because I can tell you right now, Chinese want to bring that model here, but they want to run it themselves in South Africa because they've seen a gap and they're very smart. So, why should we not be the ones that spearhead that after doing those getting those learnings? I'm just citing one example out of many, which you can a benchmark and get from different countries. Uh, not now to talk about, I think we'll talk about the rural gentrification, which is in itself what you were touching about, touching on in terms of what exactly needs to happen within the rural spaces for us to develop by the rural people themselves. But when it comes to how we need to look at coming up with long-lasting solutions, solutions that will ensure that there is job creation, there is a true, a true turnaround in terms of this whole scourge that we find ourselves in. Uh and there's a true turnaround and not just come up with knee-jack reaction type solutions uh which are not really thought through carefully. Uh and uh if we are going to uh turn this country around seriously, we we need to come up with such groundbreaking, you know, earth-shattering type strategies.

SPEAKER_04: 16:52

But what you're talking about, and as you said, I mean there are several models that you could um that you could recount. But what I like about what you are saying is that it closes the transitionary gap that we face in South Africa because our children work or rather go to school with the idea that post-matric they will get some qualification, and then there's the jubilation and joyous moment of achieving that that qualification, but we can't negate also what that then happens is that the transition from that moment of jubilation immediately after is the anxiety of way through from there, and the a lot of people fall through the cracks in that, and we are sitting with these unemployed graduates because that gap is exactly what China has managed to close, that transitionary gap. And when when that falls through, somebody needs to catch catch that. That there's a net that needs to be created there, and what we're finding is that government is creating that net and that what and that is at a cost to government, because obviously, when like you're saying, Lala and all of that, they need to capture that. So I think that that that's quite nice. And you're reminding me there's um a restaurant here as you go down the coast. So what they've done is they've got three restaurants within this complex, but within this complex, they've got a campus where because they're a trained chef, qualified chef, and they run these restaurants, what they do is they then have a campus for a culinary academy. And as part of the training, then the students are absorbed. So it creates that feedback loop. Yes, it's the employment feedback loop, it's the training feedback loop, it's the production feedback loop, it's all in here, it's all contained in this little complex. So I I think if this could be replicated across our industries, it would make a huge difference. But rural gentrification, let's talk about that, but let's talk about that in the context of Operation We Alecaya.

SPEAKER_03: 18:54

Yeah, we we we have started again this uh movement called Operation Weelekaya, um, which is to do with um you and I, people who come from rural areas, to say we were brought up there, born, brought up there, schooled there, but just like you said, we've migrated into big cities, um, which is called urbanization, which is a global phenomenon. I I really don't think that we should just accept it as a global phenomenon and and leave it like that and say, ah, it's happening anyway. Why is it a global phenomenon? It's a global phenomenon because there's a rural gap. It's a global phenomenon because there is a situation that has been left uh unattended, where you have got rurality being left to be on autopilot, to develop on its own. I'm sure I'm sure you've seen how rural areas are developing, from Venda to um Bumalanga to the Sin Cape Sul to Wazunata. People are building mansions, beautiful infrastructure, etc. But to be honest, it's just developing on its own. And you'd find there's no uh infrastructure. Development to sort of like backup and support that. So, and now government later they are coming and say, hey, these people are building nice houses, so we need to start charging them and all sorts of things. I think that's wrong. Because you can't just come and say, want to charge you, you must start paying rates in the land that you've not even contributed to helping me develop. You know, so what we what I think we need to do, which is now uh Operation Belegaya, is to say there are many educated people and smart people, engineers, technicians, doctors, scientists, uh, media personnel, you name it, who I think are so preoccupied with their urban life. Such that they they only go back home, maybe uh for big functions, your logolog and you and all that, or may or may or not as they feel. So we we need to find a way of looking back to our areas that really made us who we are today, and ensure that we offer career guidance to the young ones who are at school from primary to higher high school for free. You know, that's that's our duty, our national duty. We've got to go back and invest in those rural areas. We've got to go back and assist in mapping out rurality because nature leaves no what vacuum. So if we leave those pla those spaces, definitely somebody else who's gonna come and occupy it. I can tell you that for sure. Because I come from Nungama, and I've seen uh gradually that that space is being occupied, right, uh by other people other than ourselves.

SPEAKER_04: 21:45

Other than South Africans from other than South Africans from and this is not just I'm not saying this is I mean you you you you go to a supermarket, yes, and you you get there, it's you know run by literally people from China, people from different countries that that are running it, and obviously, again, that has an impact because where is that money gonna go? It's not gonna stay in South Africa. It's not gonna stay in South Africa.

SPEAKER_03: 22:09

You know, and that's the biggest problem. Again, rural gentrification has to do with uh the concept, just to do it, you know, more affluent people, uh you know, people with with so much money going back to rural areas and and maybe buying that. It's got its own pros and cons, by the way, it's good and bad in a sense, where you you will have people occupying that space and then maybe driving the land uh to be even more expensive because it's rich people who would go down there and start developing the rural areas and therefore displacing people from the same areas because it's becoming more expensive. So if we are not careful, we are going to start experiencing the rural gentrification in a negative sense. Yeah, right? And what we need instead is to be the ones that go to the places that uh gave birth to us and that we understand better because I understand very well the needs of my people one and gone. What is that do they need? You know, uh sometimes you just go, and it must not just be politicians. It must honestly, this is my fan view. It mustn't just be politicians who are leading the pack, it must be professionals.

SPEAKER_04: 23:16

But no goes, I mean, if you take it out of the rural context and you look at the urban context, what keeps schools in urban areas going? When I say urban areas, let me say suburban areas. Yes. It's the old boys and the old girls of the school. Yes, that they will make sure that their school has a science lab because a person will say, and they will come and and they will do that. So sports field, you'll find sports field. Because nungos and it's named after him, and they've come and they've built that that that sports field for the for the next generation because that's where they come from. But what it also then does, if we go back and we contribute to the growth and the development of our areas, we now have a vested interest in not letting them decay.

SPEAKER_01: 24:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 24:05

In not letting any elements, negative elements, the elements come in. And who better to drive the development and the growth of the area than the people that are there? Because Sane Sobo named the sequomuntu kukona ili ba sala se uvarajela, or an eka, andasekumunde, but still gama, you go tell you, hey, hi, bingyo hoke. If you allow that place to deteriorate. So that's the importance of Operation Bilekai. But let's talk about the rural chambers of commerce.

SPEAKER_03: 24:36

Yeah, you've summarized it very well because this calls for partnership, right? And uh the the the partnership that must be between municipalities, the traditional authorities, uh, the community leadership, the church leadership, or religious community, and say, let's find a way of making sure that we are partnering here and we've got a social pact that is going to help us as a people emerge. And we we really, I mean, we'll solve a lot of problems in this country if we were to think like that. Coming to the rural chamber of commerce and industry, again, this is based on a three-dimensional vision of of uh of the things that we drive, which is the Mazom Noto, uh, which is Operation Belecaya, and rural chamber of commerce and industry. That chamber is very important because it's got to do with packaging rural assets.

SPEAKER_01: 25:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 25:34

Right? Rural assets is people from rural areas, uh, expertise of various kinds, right? As I've already mentioned. And number two, it is land that is there, especially your agric potential and agricultural land. Imagine a situation where we have got all the the assistance that the rural land will need, especially for on agriculture, creating models that will really beside me, do economic agri-revolution.

SPEAKER_01: 26:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:11

Where you've got your your your mechanization in place, your assistance with irrigation processes, your assistance with post- and pre-harvest technologies, your assistance with the input costs, uh, that will be your seats and all of that, centralized. Yes. Not left only to government, but centralized and to make sure that within each and every one of these districts, there is a serious impact as soon as the season begins, because we're talking agriculture, which is a time-sensitive sector. And you miss a month or you miss a week, you'd find yourself totally out. Yes. And yet we are sitting in millions of hectares of land. Yes, we still need lots of land that we do not have, but the land that we have currently, as you see, Telelangabantu, because MS CPAs they are there, the traditional land is there, but it's not being fully utilized. I'm just talking about another um uh packaging of that particular asset. And then you are talking about mining. Royalty is not poor, royalty is rich, royalty is the future. So mining, you know, I I always make this example that who knew that uh this sand in Richard's Bay uh has got so much value? Who knew that down here in Melmoth there is iron ore? Who knew that there is gold in some other areas in Kwasulina Tan? Who knew that let's see I'm in the South Coast? You name it. I mean the list is just endless. Where are all those found? In the rural areas. Who negotiates for these assets between uh your investors as well as rural people? For the rural people to have equity in this and not just to be to be said, look, you are going to will create jobs for you. You know, we we we are not just about jobs, and that's that that issue which we must deal with. And having the ownership of the means of production. And I can name property, I can name list, the list is endless in terms of rurality and rural economic development.

SPEAKER_04: 28:05

Now, of course, Amand Lomoto hinges on partnership in terms of government partnerships, private um partnerships, social, um, social impact as well, all of that is quite important. So, how does one participate?

unknown: 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 28:21

Uh look, we we obviously um have been signing partnership agreements, MOUs, uh with uh government, with entities, with DFIs, with international uh institutions. I mean we we have got partnerships all across the globe. In America, with HBCUs, historical black colleges and universities, we've got in in Eastern Europe, uh, we have got in UAE and all of that. We we would like to obviously get government to be part of this because it must be we must be the ones that lead our own economic development and not necessarily wait for government uh to dictate what needs to be done. It's very important that we lead our own economic development. Again, it's very important for government as well to understand that they must be receptive to ideas. Yes, because it's great ideas which drives uh communities and countries. But if they are not, and becomes a problem because they think or they just want to be the ones that lead. We are supposed to be the ones coming up with our own well-crafted solutions and say one partnerships can work together.

SPEAKER_04: 29:30

Now, gossip, I like what you're saying there when you say that government needs to be receptive. So government being receptive obviously speaks immediately to bureaucracy. It speaks to quicker turnaround times when there are investors and when there are project implementers and partnerships that are to be formed. It also speaks to us as people, especially Jungobagatus Makay or Kulele Makai. And the there is opportunity for things to be done beyond just building our mansions. Yes, we want to live nicely and in comfort, masas be makai, but how can we also participate in the I'll use the usual term in the upliftment of India was it to masa masasmuye leg zone? But also you mentioned something very important, like concept, the Chinese concept of ensuring that the education system speaks directly through to the economic system. And I think as we close off, those are quite important points.

SPEAKER_03: 30:28

I think they're very important because they they talk to the beautiful policy framework that we've had for many years. Um you you can talk about our lofty and very um subordinate um uh vision of the National Development Plan, which which is talking to 2030, 2030 is just in five years' time from now, uh, and every other policy prescript that uh comes flowing out of that or as part of the broader uh government framework uh in terms of uh legislation and policy framework. Whether you're talking industrial policy action plan, IAPUP, we're talking agricultural policy action frame uh plan as well, whether you're talking political strategic frameworks or any other IDPs and uh and and and and and and district planning and whatsoever. You we've got all of these nice plans um on paper. Uh but I think the emphasis now should be uh I always say that uh if if you if people ask me what is it that needs to be done, just three things. It's implementation, number one, and number two is implementation, and number three is implementation. That's very important. But who is going to implement? Uh it's not just only government, it's us, the people, it's entrepreneurs. Because here we're talking more about economy, we're talking about uh encouraging and activating the culture of entrepreneurship. We do know that broadly speaking, we talk about entrepreneurship globally. Of 8.1 billion people, less than 10% of people on earth are entrepreneurs. And and and and why? It's because a lot of people are pushed towards job uh seeking and and and really getting employed instead of uh creating jobs themselves. And and and so that we can drastically reduce this unemployment. I mean, we we we have got a very small population with almost 65% youth unemployment. But you go to these big countries that we benchmark with America, 345 million people, 3.2% or their about unemployment. Same as China, single data unemployment. When are we ever going to cut that down? We really need to drive entrepreneurship aggressively from from young, uh, from uh preschool, you know, from um primary education. So we have lots of people coming up with solutions, especially solutions, you know, to solve problems in your own environment.

SPEAKER_01: 32:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 32:50

You know, if if your education is making you look elsewhere and excited to start, I've got three or two or four degrees or whatever qualifications. But when you look back in your backyard and see what exactly are you doing about the problems in your own locality, that that education system is really missing the point. So we need to really start getting that. I really have uh a lot of optimism in me about the fact that uh people are not like uh concrete and cast in stone. Whether you've studied engineering or or any other field, you can always be adaptable to do something else. Uh it's not like these unemployed graduates, they are just there in numbers and and and they can't be converted, right? People can be converted and and people are not concrete, and people can think uh creatively and come up with solutions.

SPEAKER_04: 33:41

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03: 33:42

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04: 33:43

Thank you for joining us on this episode of the podcast. Remember, you can like the episode and share the podcast link as well as listen to more episodes on the channel. Subscribe to the channel for more Sea Walk. Thank you for listening.