Crossing the Line | When Cops Become Criminals - Liza Grobler

Crossing the Line is a timely and thought-provoking exploration of police corruption and criminality in South Africa, written to move the conversation beyond academic spaces and into the everyday public sphere. It unpacks how corruption operates within policing institutions, highlighting why it is crucial for ordinary citizens to understand these dynamics given their widespread impact.

It reveals the breadth of offences involving members of the South African Police Service (SAPS), including corruption, abuse of power, and serious violent crimes, while also examining the complex relationships between law enforcement officials and criminal networks.

Drawing on interviews with SAPS members, policing experts, and incarcerated offenders, the book combines firsthand accounts with media and academic sources to present a layered and compelling narrative. Beyond documenting wrongdoing, it also investigates the underlying individual and institutional risk factors that enable such behaviour, and critically explores possible interventions to address and prevent police corruption.

On this episode of The Podcast, we unpack the uncomfortable truths at the heart of the book and ask the questions many are afraid to confront: how deep does police corruption really go, who is holding the system accountable, and what does this mean for everyday citizens? Join us for the conversation with Liza Grobler, the author of  Crossing the Line | When Cops Become Criminals. 

The Podcast:
Camera: Mluleki Dlamini & Siyabonga Meyiwa
Sound: Sibusiso 'Dust' Nkosi
Editing: Mluleki Dlamini 
Co-ordinator: Phumelele Khambule
Host: Nongcebo Vukile McKenzie

Contact: info@nvmckenzie.co.za
View episodes on YouTube : Link ➡️ https://youtube.com/@nvmckenzie?si=y8ZcaOQ0yYqjGhA8

Disclaimer: 
Some content may include sensitive topics and discussions, listener discretion is advised. The intention is not to offend but to provide information. Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics. The content on this podcast does not constitute financial, legal, medical, or any other professional advice. Users should consult with the relevant professionals for specific advice related to their situation.

The Podcast is not responsible and cannot be held liable for any damages resulting from reliance on the content provided through the channel's content. All content is provided without warranty. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:56

In today's conversation, we're going to be taking the beauty how it's trusting why it happens and what it means for everyday citizens. This isn't about policing, it's about accountability and the fragile trust between the people and the police. My name is Nanteble Vogele Mackenzie. Our guest on this episode of the podcast is Lisa Krubler. She's the author of the book Crossing the Line: When Cops Become Criminals. Lisa, thank you for being with us on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Thank you, Nanteble, for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

So this book was released in 2013, and we are doing this interview now because obviously, in the context of what's going on in our country, it's never not relevant, but I think it's just really put the spotlight on what happens within the police force. It's quite interesting because the title of the book, Crossing the Line. What is that line?

SPEAKER_00 1:50

It's um what is also known in police polance as the thin blue line. So basically it's it's crossing from being a law-abiding citizen or a dedicated policeman always doing their job, crossing over that thin blue line that separates them from the criminals. That's that's what it is. They cross from being policemen, upholders of the law, technically, to into the criminal world. Basically sums it up.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

And if your life is in the criminal world, even if you're on the other side of that blue line, but your life is enmeshed in that environment, in that context, it's what you see on a daily basis. How hard is it really to stay on the right side of that line?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

There are a lot of considerations when it comes to answering that question. So if I can just sort of veer into perhaps two of the main motivations for for police criminality, if you'll indulge me. Um we're looking at we're looking at individual factors. So um before I before I really get going, I just I just want to emphasize again that this book um came out of my PhD, which I did on police criminality. And that was actually completed in 2005, and the book it was written in 2013. Um but what did come out strongly is uh that the main motivation for criminality are two main factors. It's it's individual factors. So you're looking at the individual policemen. And when when we talk about individual factors, we're looking at a policeman, let's say a corrupt policeman or criminal policeman, we're looking at their makeup. So it's it's are they greedy? Greed is is is a driver of most of the corruption in this country across the board, not just with the police. Uh we see it daily in the Bulanga Commission. It's it's greed, and it's greed versus need. But when you look at the book, the need is secondary to greed when you speak to all the experts and the criminals that were investigated. Um it's definitely greed, it's choice. Choice? It's it's it's a lack of integrity, it's a lack of self-discipline, it's a lack of control, psychological problems. Um, all those kind of things are individual factors. It's it's it's drug addiction, it's alcohol addiction, it's uh family issues, all of those things add up. Debt. Debt is a big one because uh police aren't trained in financial management. So so so debt is a big issue, and and you know, everybody wants what the neighbors got, kind of thing. So and the temptation, of course, is huge. And you'll either get those that succumb to it or those that don't. And then the second leg of that, uh the motivations is organizational. So within that context, you're looking at at managerial issues. So you'll also see in the book uh what comes through very strongly is is the the quite frankly, the the appalling standard of of management within the SAPs. And particularly in the middle management in the at station level when we look at those case studies. Um so the ma all the managerial issues, and then the there's also uh policies and procedures within the SAPs, like your you know, you start with your recruitment, the quality of recruits that you're getting into the police. The vetting. I mean, General Makunasi just said the other day, the unit that's responsible for vetting is dirty. Um there's a the training. Training is a big issue. And particularly when it comes to corruption, ethics and integrity training. Yes, there's a code of conduct with one line about corruption in it. There's an ethics, there's a code of ethics, which I think are used as paper jets in the police stations, really. Because the ethics and integrity training is is is is almost non-existent. It's your promotions, your promotion policy in the SAPS is hugely controversial. Um, salaries, all those, and and as I say, your caliber of management. Um and when you bring in things like political appointments into that, um, it just m muddies the waters even more. And we've seen some horrible consequences of that, uh particularly with uh police commissioners. And then also in this organizational cesspit is police culture, elements of police culture, and they're universal, it's not specific to South Africa. So you've got that whole element of abuse of power. I do it because I can. I beat people up because I can. It's it's the machismo, the you know, I'm the strong man. If you pull your tongue out of me, I'm gonna lock you up. It's it's um it's the blue code of silence. The the the code of silence, or some could refer to it as the blue code of silence, is where you do not rat on your mates. And we've seen consequences of that too, where police get taken out. Um so it's it's it's yeah, it's it's um a lot of very definite factors that would lead to one guy making the choice to to cross that line. And and again, I need to f to to just reiterate that uh this book focuses on the bad guys, not the good policemen in SAPS, which which are the majority. Although South Africans str struggle to believe that because of what we see on a daily basis, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

I like that you say it's universal because there was in your documentary done with Michael Dowd, and he's been dubbed New York's most corrupt cop. And when you listen to the scale of the criminality that he was involved in, it is amazing. And obviously he was not the only one, and he talks about that extensively in the documentary and in interviews that he's done. But as South Africans, and I I think as any people of any country, because you focused on how that affects you in the country of your birth or where you live, it's easy to believe that it's a uniquely South African problem.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

No, it's not. Corruption is universal. But as you'll see the book too, I've uh um I also made sure that I spoke to other um policing uh unit uh uh agencies, if I can call them that, in developed democracies. For example, um the New South Wales employee branch, um the UK, the Met, Scotland Yard, and the NYPD Internal Affairs Bureau. And the things that separate us is that, say, for example, like you're talking about Michael Dowd, now New York, NYPD, their corruption is sort of cyclical. So in other words, every 10 years they have a major corruption scandal, and then they they they've had commissions of inquiry dealing with them. So they've had the NAP Commission and they've had the Mollin K Mollin Commission. But the difference there is that the recommendations they make are actu are actually implemented.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

It's that's the big difference, not like South Africa. So the the NYPD Internal Affairs Bureau is highly effective, as are the Mets um employee, the Standards Bureau or the Ghost Squad they set up there. They're highly, highly effective units. And they deal with their corruption. We don't even we haven't even started dealing with our corruption. Nothing has changed since I finished my PhD in 2005. Nothing. In fact, if you look at the Midlanga Commission, I think it's that is only the tip of the iceberg that's coming out there now. Only the tip. And just getting back to the recommendations, um, I mean, we've had since I've I've written that book, we've had the Kylicha Commission. Nothing came of that. We've had the Zondo Commission. Very little is has come of that. Um, I was on the panel of experts dealing with the Americana recommendations and the implementation um in terms of public order policing. Nothing's been really come of that either. And the bottom line is SAPS is intransigent. They intransigent. I remember sitting in the panel, we had we had um so-called experts there. So we had people from civil society, we had people from overseas uh representing overseas um agencies, and then we had SAPs. And uh the the picture in my head that I will never be or never have been able to shake is this very pumped up, arrogant general, little general slouching in his chair with his arms folded, looking at all of us, and we had an awesome judge, he was the chair, I think he was absolutely horrified. Um, Ustra um uh his deceased now, Judge David and Changaizi, lovely, lovely guy. And uh this policeman with his sort of nose peering over the table says to us, saps will never be told what to do. And that just sort of sealed it for me, and we've seen it, practically we've seen it so often. And uh it's sad they really, really need a complete and total overhaul. And I think now with this sort of new management in place, you know, with Perozca, they they're looking at um at uh changing things, and and some somehow it's got to happen, but a lot's gonna happen before that.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

What makes our recommendations and our institutions ineffective? If time, money, expertise, resources are being spent on commissions, on structures that are supposed to disable corruption and enable some level of excellence, integrity, all of that to be applied. What is the stumbling block?

SPEAKER_00 11:57

I think the huge stumbling block here is and and the the big difference is SAPS does not have to um exercise those. They don't have to implement the recommendations, they are merely recommendations. And there's no comeback, there's no punishment for not doing that, for not implementing the recommendations. They will remain recommendations, whereas with with other major corruption scandals in other countries, and I I can only refer to those three that I mentioned, um, they have to implement them. It's it's it's followed up. Um and also we we we've had such the National Development Plan, let's go right back to 2012. I mean, there's such a whole chapter on policing there with really, really, really good, solid input. And one of the things they recommended there was a policing board. Now, again, I use the word recommend. Have we seen a policing board since 2012? This is one issue. No. Policing board is there to to to focus on to over it's it's another layer of oversight to focus on ethics and integrity within it within our police service. But nothing's happened. Nothing's happened in 14 years. It's um uh yeah, that that's the big difference. That's the difference is implementing them and or ignoring them.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

So going back to the main motivations for crime, individual factors, organizational factors. Looking at the individual, there is a code of conduct and there are national standards that members of SAPS subscribe to by virtue of them being policemen. So what happens to those? The enforcement, the monitoring? What happens?

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Alright, a code of conduct is merely that piece of paper. They're you you you can't get punished for uh transgressing the code of conduct. It's it's it's merely uh the same with the code of ethics, they're guidelines. This is how we should be behaving. Um this is what we should be doing. But it's not you you can't yes, you can you can get you can get disciplined um for not adhering to certain things there, um, ideals within the code of conduct or the code of ethics, but it's got to be manifested in the form of of of of misconduct or crime or corruption. But then you're not you're not sanctioned for violating the code of ethics or the code of conduct. You you you're sanctioned for not doing your duty or committing a crime or whatever the case may be.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Now, looking at those guidelines, let's differentiate. We hear of misconduct, we hear of crime, and then there's corruption. What's the difference?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Okay, they all sort of bleed into each other. So especially when one looks at sepsis disciplinary system, it's it's it's terribly confusing. Um but your misconduct is your your sort of everyday things, like a a policeman um neglecting to do his duty, or he's refusing to do his duty, um, or he's insubordinate, um, or he's misusing resources. Those kind of things. If one always he's he's he's um it's deviance related to breaking rules and procedures, departmental rules and procedures. So it's misconduct that is punished put departmentally. It doesn't become a criminal issue. Um so there is a disciplinary system that deals with that. But the disciplinary system also deals with with with crimes, although the courts win at the end of the day. Um, but yeah, misconduct is is but but i is the the sort of everyday things, internal things that are punished internally. Um and then yeah, I just said misconduct and then corruption is is also a very broad term. So if you look at the beginning, um I think Professor Morris punched on page, you know, the introduction, he he sort of summed it up the best when he said it's an officer knowingly doing or not doing something that is against his or her duty for some form of financial or material gain or promise of such gain. So if you unpack that sentence, you will see if he can do or not do his duty, okay, and that could be misconduct. So in other words, he can in other words, his his commander can say to him, Sergeant so and so, go and do that, and he'll he doesn't. Okay. That's misconduct. But if he if he's not doing his duty um or he's doing something against his duty, like he goes to a motorist and said, I'm arrested, I'm arresting you for driving, for drunk driving, or you pay me 2,000 rand. That's corruption.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Okay. Um so bribery, bribery is the one it's a crime and it's corruption. So the suit corruption is is is is also transgressing departmental rules and procedures, but with a criminal element to it. And then you and then after that you just get brazen criminality. Um so yes, they do, they do kind of bleed into each other. Misconduct, not so much, but corruption, because corruption is a statute, it's a crime, and and criminality, other forms of criminal criminality kind of bleed into each other, but with police members in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Taking that in context of the country we live in, the societies we live in, when we talk about policemen being involved in criminality and corruption, is the standard I I don't want to say fair, but maybe let's let's consider this. Because I'm in I'm in no way suggesting that you know policemen should be allowed to, you know, fall into these traps or allow themselves to be driven by whatever would drive them into misconduct, into corruption, into criminality. I'm in no way suggesting that. But if a person is living in an environment where there are high levels of crime in just general communities and they are working in an environment where all they see all day long, every single day, is crime. No matter what environment you work in, even though you see beyond the borders of that environment, but you tend to become enmeshed with your work. You know, if you're an if you're an accountant and you go grocery shopping, you're grocery shopping as an accountant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when when you consider that and you consider, you know, there's something you talk about in the book where you mention how hard policemen will work in investigating a case and putting together the evidence with limited resources, and they will go and hand it over when it's needs to be handed in as as evidence, and they'll do whatever they need to do, and sometimes that evidence will be thrown out on technicality or whatever grounds that it's thrown out on. And you see how far your work won't go or will go. Is it not normal psychologically as a person to be like ah and and be demoralized and give up? And when you see, as is evident in many, many, many societies that the bad guy, sadly, the bad guy does win. We teach our kids be good, do good, do unto others as you would have done unto you. But the reality of what we see is we see the bullies win, we see the people with ulterior motives win, we see the people with sinister motives win, we see the people that are doing wrong walking around happily, smiling like all the rest of us, but with just a little bit more in their pocket, with just a little bit more in their bag, and with just a little bit more bounce in their step, because they've got the little extra perks in life. And for any ordinary human being, you start thinking, why am I telling the truth about anything? Because the truth doesn't pay. And this is just as an ordinary human being. And obviously, you'll reel yourself back in and you'll sort of like fix yourself and you'll be like, okay, I'll do the right thing, I'll be a moral upstanding citizen. But as a policeman, when you're seeing how easy it is, you speak in the book about how many dockets disappear and you see your colleagues doing whatever, you know, is it really a fair expectation? Fair is not the word, but is it realistic? Is it a re yes? Is it a realistic expectation that we think just as an accountant we'll go shopping as an accountant, grocery shopping as an accountant with a little mental calculator? Is it fair that we expect them to never, ever, ever err on the other side of the thin blue line?

SPEAKER_00 20:55

And on Table, I totally get your point. But there's two sides to that story. Yeah. Um yes, they're human. Okay, they're human like all of us, and none of us is perfect, and we will all succumb to temptation of some sort throughout our lives. And um the police are no different. So the the difference is that technically they should be operating on a totally different level from the average man in the street or the accountant that's gone grocery shopping or any any of anything. They, you know, they uh any profession, they they should be operating, as I say, on a different level. Now, the problem is when we allow corruption to get as rapacious and out of hand as it is in in the South African police service at the moment, um, and it has been for a long time, it's it's there are many factors that influence that behavior. So the fact that it's not uh actually, this is such loaded question though just bear with me so sorry if I talk too much okay so what is happening here is you you you have to look at the the process right so police get recruited and that's where it starts that's where the problem starts so in this country we have to also be realistic about the South African society yeah we we have a massive unemployment problem in this country right so we have everybody or or you you'd have a you'd have a thousand positions going and you have a hundred thousand people applying yeah and the people that are doing the doing the recruiting are not necessarily recruiting the best candidate even in recruiting there's corruption so what are we letting in you know as as we also say in the book you're letting a worm into the apple we there are cases in this book too of of of offenders who um are police offenders um who end up doing serious crime who come into the service with a record so that again on on that level it speaks to the vetting processes what are our vetting processes like so if the vetting processes are weak you are again letting worms into the apple then the next level is training there's a massive problem with our training and that brings me back to a policeman making a choice to commit corruption or a per or policeman who stays on the straight and narrow of which are the majority but then again so our training there there's I I don't think there's any ethics or corruption training um ethics or integrity training in their in their syllabus um they don't do what they do in these other examples like New York and the other um democratic policing agencies where they do scenarios they do scenarios and they they get they get ex-cops who serve time for corruption or or criminality they get them to come and speak to recruits we don't do that um well you know we can always use a couple of generals to come and explain to them but anyway that's beside the point um so yeah we we we we're losing um as I say we we we're not getting the best caliber policemen into the service and then you know you you as I say your your training is is a a very very very important um part of how that policeman is going to turn out and then of course you've got management issues you've got you know we just need to look at the the the last couple before Masamola and Pashani police commissioners three of them with political appointments um the first one Celebi uh was convicted of corruption he had a corrupt relationship with Glenagliotti for years he he was convicted of corruption 15 years sentence served seven seven months sorry not seven years um and then there was Pekikele who was fired um for a for a dodgy uh building lease uh issue um and then again only in South Africa he gets put back into into the state as a police minister and then the third one was um uh Ria Piecha and uh I mean the the the the the biggest consequence of her appointment was the Maricana massacre and she these people come from outside they have no that the the biggest problem is they have no policing experience they don't understand a policing organization which is incredibly con complex and deep and so they cannot give operation direction and there was nowhere there was no more graphic example than what we saw at Maricana so you have all these these complications and these issues and then your quality of management your quality of management look if you look at those examples in the book you look at those examples of the a lot of those guys were um working night shift with no senior management on duty at all so they just basically did what they wanted to do. So your caliber of management is very very important as well and um that would also determine whether you would whether whether where it's easier to be corrupt I mean can you imagine working in that station X where where your buddies are permanently drunk and they're going to gangsters for bry meat and they're stealing and they're robbing and they're raping and they're murdering and you've got to now hold the straight and narrow. And besides that you might be an ethical guy I'm not saying you're gonna cross the line but they will work you out. That's what they do they will work you out and it also depends on the unit you're in. So if you say for example you are in a police station in Seapoint or or Camps Bay or sorry I'm using Western Cape examples or any upmarket suburb um you your corruption will be less um if you look at that those that 5000 Rand German mark case yes those those guys were they were at the Seapoint police station and their their colleagues noticed they came there with fancy cars they were warrant officers fancy cars and a boat one boat and a motorbike and and they were saying hang on you warrant officer there's no ways you can afford this and they went to their superiors and they did something about it. Now you go to station X which is on the K flats and the the gangsters who I interviewed as well by the way would tell you that 80% of that particular police station was corrupt. Now you can imagine being an ethical guy full of integrity with the best intentions loves policing being placed in that police station you know what's going to happen to him he's gonna go one of two ways um he's either going to get worked out or he's going to join them. So it all and then there are also certain units that are more prone to corruption than others. So you'll find your um your uh organized crime units which we see coming out strongly in the Bidlanga Commission and your um detectives detectives are hugely vulnerable because because of this whole docket issue nobody wants to go to court I mean nobody wants to go to jail and um yeah so it so it all depends too where you are um based but at the end of the day it does boil down to you as an individual and choice. But on the other hand on the other hand these guys that go that work in these very very dense crime areas um they also get threatened going back to you know growing up with gangsters policemen growing up to with gangsters living in the same environment they also get threatened they they I know where you live um I know where your kid goes to school I know your family and it happens they get hurt so you know it's the same with correctional services and orders it's a it's it's the same scenario um they live amongst the criminals um but the the difference is also socializing with them that's where a lot of um policeman at station level have got into big trouble is yes your friend might be a gangster but you you as a policeman must know where to draw the line once you start doing him favors by choice then you're in trouble. But then also you you should be able if you're based there and you don't want to get involved you should be able to go to a manager or to a senior manager and say look this is what's happening or this guy's corrupt or I've got this problem but SAPS doesn't work like that. They're hierarchical so you can't go to the provincial commissioner as a sergeant and say this is what's happening in my police station. You have to go to your direct supervisor and your direct supervisor might very well be involved as well. So yeah it's a complex web of issues it really is but at the end of the day it boils down to use the individual.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Just on that reporting structure and the channels that need to be followed if you need to report and you might find yourself reporting as it happens in corporate as it happens in any environment you know it's it's not specific and particular and unique only to the police force you might find that you report your colleague to your direct supervisor or their supervisor or whatever the case might be and you're the one that's punished for it. You worked out you are bullied you are ostracized you're you're eternally you know blacklisted you know from yeah and it it's it it's not unique to the police force but what you talk about in the book as well is that 5% of police deaths are police being taken out in parenthesis by the police or their colleagues that they're investigating for crimes. And that is interesting for me that the very same police are investigating their colleagues like in in any organization you'll have the forensic unit and often the forensic unit will have the financial you know so they might outsource that to an auditing firm and they would then have you know forensic investigators or forensic auditors from an from an audit firm or whatever specialization to come through do an investigation on that. But here you've got internal people investigating other internal people if you are investigating me I am giving you the side I everyday when we come into work I am giving you the bad ah every day and you know I am I'm I'm not washing your coffee mug at all because you know in my mind you have now become my problem which obviously is is a bit but that's how one would perceive it. Is that absolutely it is how do we expect that to work though if we are not creating separate institutions or separate units within the the police force or within government that will be directly responsible you've got IPID right and we as members of the public can report instances of police brutality to IP but we are expecting members of the South African police force to investigate each other. How is that supposed to be effective? How is that supposed to yield good outcomes? How is that supposed to keep those who do want to stay on the right side of the thin blue line safe?

SPEAKER_00 32:56

I'm very pleased you answered that question because Jackie Saleby did tremendous harm to the South African police service and um that it's never really recovered from that. I'm not saying it was perfect by any means before that but um he did tremendous harm because he had a selfish reason for disbanding there was a there was a very good anti-corruption unit removed from the SAPs although it was it was it had the it was staffed by SAPS members. It had the best of the best investigating their own and they had their own techniques they work with intelligence they s surveil they they listen they uh work with whistleblowers and then he came along and he knew jolly well what he was doing or what he was up to already um in terms of of of corruption and crime and he I think there each province had a unit so the year before he closed down all of them which was I think 2003 or four um the year before he closed down four. So what he did was because they had fantastic results so what he did was to justify to Parliament why he wanted the anti-corruption unit closed he quoted he quoted the stats from the reduced number of of anti-corruption units and and said to them look look how their performance has declined in the last year so the previous year was the performance of all nine um anti-corruption units and that year when he was in parliament was only the the um the stats of the remaining five so obviously they're going to be a lot less than than the entire contingent so parliament weather is it fine disbanded and um and and he got his wish so and the motivation he used was um corruption is everybody's problem therefore these specialists in corruption must now go to station level and investigate their colleagues in the police station I mean it's bizarre it's beyond bizarre and this again comes from political direction instead of operational direction these kind of decisions so anyway that was the end of that and that's never been resurrected that's never been reinstated the anti-corruption unit so now they have an anti-corruption unit I think in the detectives we've got the Hawks and it has an anti-corruption unit we've got iPIT um we've got a hotline a corruption hotline it's very higgled-giggledy but again I'll go back to the New York Internal Affairs Bureau they are highly highly effective and that is what we need um we we need again also to have uh another um organization like we had with with the scorpions and I mean those were also they're also disbanded purely for nefarious reasons not not for any other reason whatsoever but for nefarious reasons and that's what we need we need an NYPD type unit part of the CEPs but outside of the CEPs um to investigate corruptions police investigating police when they're looking at each other uh uh no it it doesn't work and it's dangerous it is quite frankly dangerous I'm not sure if you're aware of um a book called Serpico or or a detective called Serpico there was actually a movie with with El Pacino sorry I'm giving my age away here but it's he he was he was in one of these really bad corruption cycles in New York um he was a cop who was having none of this and he didn't he got nerve backing because the corruption went so high up um and then what happened was they as you said um his colleagues were watching him they were not happy you know that but that he was he was determined to do something about the corruption around him and um they went on a drug bust one day and knocked down the doors and everything and then of course you know pretended to shoot a dealer but in the meantime one of the colleagues shot him. And um yeah and and then then you know when there was an investigation such as it was it was it was it was no sorry oops um I shot the wrong guy but it was absolutely and completely intentional. Oh yeah as literally uh yeah as a warning shot to say you know just back off and in this country people die unfortunately they die they get set up by their colleagues and they they'll either do it themselves or they'll most of the time they'll actually get a an outsider criminal to do it. I mean if we look at our level of hits and things I mean look at look at the um the the the the fantastic cops we've lost the hawks um policeman that was murdered the cops we've lost because they are not tolerating corruption there within the ranks and they've been taken out there's no warning shots there's no nothing they get killed in this country which is if which is just it's it's terrible it's unacceptable. It's completely unacceptable.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

So in page two one seven it reads so practically any police member who wants to report corruption can't especially if they're seen as a corrupt they'll be victimized. As a result most people ignore corruption I didn't see anything. That's the attitude in the police and it's quoting uh one of the respondents to your questions and it carries on and it says when there are problems in the SAPS members should be allowed to talk to the media especially if they cannot talk to the cluster commander a provincial commissioner despite some of the eleven offenders joining the police force for altruistic reasons after their bitter experiences in the organization only two recommended as a courier and there's a quote I wouldn't recommend the police as a courier because of the corruption the way they do things the whole system including promotions, courses, training etc Even though I was mostly happy in the police throughout my career. Another policeman from behind bars warns people off the SAPS because of the potential for psychological and mental breakdown as a result of what they will see every day. You can't just switch off some accept it but never forget it. One adds that he will definitely not recommend a career in the police because there is no real future for white policemen in South Africa. I've seen too many policemen destroyed I don't know any cops who have seen their career through and retired without becoming alcoholics, etc SAPS does not help their staff, for example with lawyers if they need them. I was curious as to why this particular respondent felt that it was more difficult for white policemen because what you're describing seems to be applicable to everyone.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Yeah yeah I think this this brings you back to um what what I said in the beginning is the promotions policy um if it I can also just you know because I spent the last probably 20 years or so uh more in the corrections environment the prison environment um I you know but the the the the policies for all state institutions are the same which I also don't agree with I think the police and corrections should be treated differently completely differently they're total totally different beasts um so so so what we're seeing is with um I don't know if I can call it a quota system. So it's the same with promotions um affirmative action yeah um all of that you have to go according to the equity policy. So say say for example you've got five candidates um for a particular senior post like let's let's say they're going into it to a commissioned officer's post like a captain and they've applied for the captain's post um your first consideration has to be equity whereas you would go to a different democratic agency anywhere else in the world and your first priority is is skill education ability so that so very often I'm not saying that the equity applicant is any less skilled or able or or educated than the other one. It's just that they get preference if you understand what I'm saying. So that you can get two candidates two different race groups and with the same sc skill or slightly less even depends but equities and I think this is what they were trying to say to me because there was a lot of that in the book. If you read the book there was a lot of unhappiness about the promotion policy a lot because and they would also say to you that the promotion policy is good but you'll get managers abusing it. So what we see too throughout the correctional services any state department is favoritism. That's also factionalism and favouritism is also a big determinant of of who gets what what position in in in the state uh in the department so yeah I think that's and also there's a thing that police there's a thing in the police called the warrant officers club and and that's the the highest level of non-commissioned officer and then you go to commissioned officers which is captains up and they they these are guys that are just stuck there they um they will retire as warrant officers and um and another thing that's come through strongly okay it's a good policy but we as whites even the the colored um interviewees as well we've been discriminated against right because it's not so easy for us to to get promoted. So at the very least we're good cops we know we're good cops but then reward us um appropriately mm-hmm so we'll stay in this rank but give us you know uh fair incremental increases um just so that we don't become despondent and unhappy or don't recommend SAPs as a career mm-hmm so yeah I think I think that's that's definitely what they're trying to say they just see it as the implementation as being particularly unfair.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Looking at at the book and how it's sequenced the the chapters it's categorized quite nicely because you go from in the pockets of gangsters to murky relationships to buy me a cool drink. I love that term because it makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

It makes so much it makes so much sense you know but obviously in in in South Africa You were to go if you were to go anywhere else in the world and you're like, ooh, buy me a cool drink. It would be you know it's it's a logical thing to ask for, but you know in the South African context, yeah, it's got a completely different meaning.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

And meaning, yeah. And and then, you know, you you talk about what drives a lot of the not so much the motivations, but the underlying, just beneath the surface, the the subliminal issues that drives criminality and corruption within the police force. And you talk about anger fueling, police murders, a fish ruts from the head, you know, that those are some of the chapters that that are in the book. But you know, a lot of what you describe is transactional. So it's people paying for things to go away. Now it does get extreme, people pay for people to go away, but a lot of it is paying for your docket to disappear, for that ticket to not be written, you know, for for the protection fee, uh, you know, for for those kinds not to be arrested, you know, those kinds of things. Um but in as much as that is criminal, inasmuch as that is corrupt, not taking away from that at all, what really, really, really just baffles me is the rape and murder aspect of it all. Because how does it get there? Any person, average human being in whatever career, in whatever context of life, in whatever society, when that person rapes, they are. I mean, I've even heard, I'm not sure how true this is, I've even heard that, for example, if you are in prison and you are in prison for the rape of a child or molestation, even there you're considered as, you know, in the lower ranks of what we would consider human. That's what I've heard.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

But now to be a p I I I don't get that because they're supposed to be protecting the most vulnerable, right? So if I am caught doing something wrong, let's make an example. I don't drink, but let's say I I drank and I was caught drunk driving. Oh, and then I, you know, plead my case, you know, I've got a child waiting at home, I'm stressed, no, I'm not really drunk, you know, I'm on I'm on whatever medication and it makes me look drunk or whatever the case might be. Okay. You know, that is, and and somebody then helping me with that. Because I mean it could be considered helping from another perspective, you know. If when I get home, I'm gonna say, oh, you know, you really, really helped me, otherwise we'd be telling a different story about my life, kind of thing. That's the perspective that I would put in it. Now, I'm not vulnerable though. I've done something, and they are, in parenthesis, helping me to not face the consequences so that I don't destroy my life. I don't get the rape aspect of it.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

You also have to bear in mind that um police, the police, you see, this is we're just getting back to basic the police force or the police service. I refer to them as a police force. Although they are democratic community-based policing, we've got military ranks. Okay, so the the police force is a microcosm of the broader society. Yeah. And and and as South Africans, we have a particularly violent society um with hella high levels of murder, um, GB uh domestic violence, GBV. Um so to them, uh what what fuels them too is is a level of impunity. Uh-huh. So when you look at when you look at that the one case of the of the policeman that joined the tri the triads, and he the Chinese triads, and he ended up committing a murder for them. Now, in his case too, he was absolutely shocked and horrified when he was arrested. He said, But why am I being arrested by my colleagues? I've got away with so much already. Why should this be any different? You see, there's murder. So that that are you looking at when you're looking at when there is no proper uh um managerial controls, command and control in place, weak command and control, weak supervision, um, not ratting on your colleagues, you are going to get away with a lot of stuff. So, you know, as I say, rape again, opportunity. You know, there's there's a there's a woman locked up, there's one guy or two guys on on night shift. Some of them will will take the opportunity because of the type of people they are and because of the system. So, and and another another one is is is the raping of of prostitutes. That's to them, that's nothing. It's it's like part of the part of their duty, you know. Okay, you don't want to go to jail, I'm gonna rape you. I mean, it's well, you're gonna provide sex for me for free. You know, same thing. So it it it's just it is just a as awful as it is, it is just a microcosm of of the broader South African rap culture. Really, South Africa has got a rap culture. And if you if you look at our broader statistics, how many rappers actually get um incarcerated? Six something like six percent. Six percent. And that that's off a very low base of reporting of rap. So uh and also included in that the whole rap culture, South African rap culture, which filters down to to the police, um and and and the impunity is is the lack of consequences. That's you know, if if if you if you're looking at six percent conviction rate, ninety-four percent are getting away with it. So, and then also they they also probably rely on being protected by their colleagues as part of the the police culture. They probably rely on on nobody, their colleague not not reporting them. So the victim has to report them. But if you had a professional police service, that would no certainly not happen. That would not happen. Um, but sadly it does. And in terms of murder, if you're looking at murder, it's it's that's that's police brutality very often. Look at um the example I gave in the book of Mahdi Amasir, who was dragged behind a police van um because he wouldn't listen, and he ended up dying in the cells. You look at Andres Tetani back then, the the protester from from Pittsburgh, he was shot to death on purpose. And and these kind of things have never really stopped. Um, and then together with that you look at the family murders. Um, the family murders, parcel murders, gender-based violence is big in the police. And that again boils down to lack of psychological care. They have an employee assistant uh assistance program, um, but if they go for outside psychological counseling, they have to pay themselves. Um so you look at the lack of psychological support, you look at the the the stress levels that that cops work under. Let's let's be honest here. Um the things they the the things they see every day. Um we if you look at say NYPD, uh after every single firearm incident, just a firearm incident, police have to be debriefed. That's not the case here. They should be debrief debriefed uh almost on a weekly basis. Our police who work in visible policing and specialized units, such as they are, um, they should be debriefed far more often. Um and then you look at all of that, and then the the the insidious mix of alcohol, drugs, we've got a drug problem too in the cops. Yeah. So all of that drives you know, they take it home with them because there's no other outlet. So it it it um it results in intimate partner murders, police murders, even murders on on on the job. Um as as I've just explained. Yeah, no, we we we next level, I'm afraid, um when it comes to there isn't there is also not a a category of crime that there's the policeman is not involved in. Um I'm talking for our own country. And you know, in my book I deal with a handful, but uh the other things, like at the moment the illicit cigarette trade is is huge. Um I don't think it's a coincidence that Sergeant and Coursey had dockets lying around related to crimes against British American tobacco. And just a week ago, or two weeks ago, they arrested three crime intelligence officers for stealing cigarettes from a uh a spazer shop. So yeah, these and stock theft and things like that I don't deal with. But yeah, uh murder and rape are uh it's it's it's it's mind-boggling. It's um but it's not surprising if if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Yeah, and and what you just mentioned now, uh in the context of murder, is you know, murdering their own families. You talk about that in the book, uh in in the chapter, Anger Fuels Police Murders, where you talk about the policeman that shot his daughter, shot his son and his wife and his wife was also uh policewoman. You talk about or in the context of drug use, and you know, th that was really a sore one. That young man, he was 20 when he joined the police force and he lost his mother and another close family member, and he just couldn't cope with the pain. And he graduated from alcohol to eventually using tick, and that is what was driving his corruption because he needed money, you know, for for the habit. And with with rape, you know, I think what for me was really sore is the rape of women who have come in to report domestic violence issues. Yes. And they then are taken to the trauma room, or the one woman who came in to report that she'd been assaulted by a police officer, and when she reported that, you know, they would pay her visits at home, rape her there. You know, it it's it's all incredibly painful. But as you say, um the police force is just a microcosm of South African society and it's it's a reflection. There are human beings, they are human beings that are South African human beings, and obviously it would be reflected, you know, we are all a product of our environment to some extent, you know. So our organizations also reflect that. But as we close the the interview, Lisa, you have obviously continued with your work. You've got another book coming soon, and hopefully we'll get a chance to talk about that. You're continuing with you with your work in corrections, and obviously you've been you still are quite involved with the work um in terms of you know your expertise and your area of expertise in criminology. And when we hear all that we hear, which is predominantly the negative, and there are some positives. I'm I'm just gonna, you know, veer off a little bit. I went to the Pinetown police station and I was there just to get an affidavit, nothing major. And there was a young man, he was from Limbombo, if I remember correctly. And he had been promised a job or some such thing. So he had taken public transport, be it a bus, be it a taxi, and he had landed up in the wrong place. Bottom line, he was not supposed to be in Pinetown, and he was from Limbombo, doesn't speak the language, didn't know where to go, didn't know what to do, and I came in and you know, there was this young policeman, and he was going around asking everyone, his colleagues, everyone who was in the charge office for donations to go and buy this young man a bus ticket back home and to get him something to eat. And in the time that I was there, because the queue was longish, he went out, bought the ticket, came back, gave him food, and then asked one of his colleagues to please make sure that he gets to I think he was going to take him to to the bus station for him to take a bus. And I thought, you know, we think about what they do in the context of crime, solving crime. Yeah. We you know, there's a lot of just human, human things that they do. Because not everybody who goes to the police station is going to the police station to lay a charge or to report a crime, or some of them are going because they genuinely do not know where to go. They don't know where to ask, they don't know where's a safe space to go. Refuge. And I I thought that was so amazing because that's somebody's child. And and the young man was 25. And we don't know what his situation is like back home. Maybe his mom is excited that he's gone to find a job if he doesn't have parents. Maybe he's thinking this is a chance for me to start my life over, you know, new town, new place, just you know, trying to get just a start in life to travel all the way from Limbobo with just the clothes on your back. That young man didn't have a bag, didn't have anything. And somebody had obviously misled him from the story that he was telling. Somebody had misled him, and you could just see, I mean, how sore it is. You do you can't guarantee that somebody's gonna help you, but if you're gonna go to a police station, you have that little bit of hope. And he was, yeah, as I've related the story now, how he helped him. And I thought that was really, really so nice. So it's beyond nice. I'm just you know, yeah, nice is not the word, but it was so kind and it was so humane and it was so caring of him to do that. And yes, we're a lot of those stories.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

Yeah. A lot of those stories, they really are.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

We get so lost in the misconduct and the crime and the corruption, and and that goes to my question. That from what obviously you've seen, you've seen both ends of the spectrum. Um, but as ordinary South Africans, when we watch these commissions on TV, when we read the newspapers, when we see all these reports, we just think it's gloom and doom, and we think you know, we just th we just think there there's no way. There's no way. We are just in the pits, we are in the depths of darkness. Is it that bad?

SPEAKER_00 58:40

I think it's pretty bad. It's it is pretty bad. I mean, I was looking for hope there, Lisa. I'm so sorry. No, look, I think it's you see, it's hard for me to um no, look, there's a lot of good out there. There's a lot of good out there, but when we are dealing with the top echelons of the police that are written, then it's bad.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

What what motivation has some guy got sitting in a in a charge office in a high gang, high crime area, and saying, Yeah, gee, I gotta behave myself, but look at General So-and-so, he's fruit. You see, you see what I'm saying? So, yes, they are gonna they are good cops, believe me, they're brilliant cops, and they will stay brilliant cops because that's who they are. But then there are those rotten ones who will also always be rotten. And that that cuts across all ranks because syndicates and gangs, they use senior policemen. They don't bother with um the charge office non-commissioned officers. They use the senior guys. And when there's money involved, that's it. And we we don't have we don't have adequate controls, we don't have adequate command, we don't have adequate management to deal with it at this stage. But thank you for that positive story, even I feel better now.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

Lisa, thank you so much um for your time and thank you so much for for shedding light. Thank you for the book. What I loved about the book is yes, it comes from academic work and it's based on research, but its narration is so easy to follow, it's so easy to engage with. It's the the the nar the narrative is told in a s in a in very much a storytelling way versus an academic reporting kind of way or a research reporting kind of way. So thank you very much for that. And I think it's easily digestible for for anyone who would be interested in the subject matter. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Thank you very much. That was great, and I look forward to chatting to you again.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

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