Ep 81: Middle Agent Status, Alternatives to Whiteness, and Radical Imagination

We cover a LOT of ground in today’s conversation, where we get curious about what prevents some folks and groups from accessing joy. We talk about Black joy, the whiteness of white Jews and what often makes embracing joy difficult (and the impact of the historical middle agent role), individual and collective safety, and imagining our liberated selves and living into that. What would it look like for white Jews choose the side of liberation over whiteness?

Check out our discussion/reflection questions for this episode:  https://joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-81

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director, and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/

Support the work our Jewish Black & Native woman-led vision for collective liberation here: https://joyousjustice.com/support-our-work

Listen to this year’s Purim episode here:  https://www.joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-80

Learn more about NCJW, the National Council of Jewish Women: https://www.ncjw.org/

Learn more about Black joy:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQlEpjZXfRU

Read more about Thich Nhat Hanh:  https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/

Transcript

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- [Tracie] In today's far ranging conversation, we get curious about what prevents some folks and some groups of people from accessing joy. We also dig into questions around white Jews' whiteness, including abstract and practical considerations of what an alternative could look like.[April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie.[Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.[April] In a complex world, change takes courage.[Tracie] Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.- Hi, Tracie.- Good morning, April.- I hope you had a good Purim. Did you have a good Purim?- Yeah, it was pretty uneventful. I took my daughter to the Purim Carnival and Spiel at our synagogue and it was the first time that a lot of us have been together again, like all the families. So I had several of the synagogue moms come up and say like, I didn't even recognize your kid when you first came in. I thought it was your niece or a cousin or something.'Cause my daughter has...- Wow, grown so much.- Grown like I don't know, like eight inches or something. Yeah, she's over five feet tall now and only 10. Not quite 10 years old, so.- Yeah.- Yeah, she's tall.- Aw, yeah, yeah. And I've had a really great Purim thanks to NCJW and being invited by their CEO, Sheila Katz and their rabbi in residence, Danya Ruttenberg to join them in a Megillah reading for not the patriarchy's Purim and had a lot of fun, had a lot of fun with that. Yeah, yeah. So that was really great. And then not only that but this will be going live now the day after we hosted our live event. So I wanna engage in a little divine co-creation here and a little of trust and belief in my people, which is not a stretch to say that that was a really fantastic event.(laughing) So thanks to everybody who joined us for as we're recording the event that has not yet happened, but will, by the time you're listening. And feel free. If you haven't already, if you didn't already in the live to let us know if that is something that you would love for us to do again. And for those of you who weren't able to make it while it will not be as quite as magical as being there live and engaging, you will get to hear our edited version of that experience so that we can all participate and partake, and be in this evolving, dynamic, courageous community together.(April laughing) So onto the theme that I wanted to address with you, which it's the first time I'm talking about this, so I'll try not to do that loopy thing that I do that kindly you and Sarah and other team members edit out. Shout out to Daniel for his editorial help in the past year. So I'm gonna try to keep it clean. And I think that there's likely various offshoots of this, but here goes and there's multiple angles of this. I'm just going to pick one to make it make sense. But I've been spending a lot of think time thinking about and noticing and observing, as we expand Joyous Justice's work, the ways in which it seems like joy is more out of reach for members, speaking generally here, for members of the Jewish community, as opposed to other communities I'm a part of or proximate to, right? Like there's a thing. Black joy is a thing. And it actually occurred. I was thinking about it this weekend. And I mean, I guess it's sort of obvious, but it hit me that now I tend to think of joy in a more universal sense for different reasons but the root of my joy comes from my family. It's not exclusively, but is very much deeply rooted in Black joy, in a liberatory, courageous, consciousness way of thinking in terms of taking full ownership of the entirety of one's experience, even in the worst of circumstances and saying, you ain't gonna steal my joy. This is mine to claim and own. And especially in the context of oppression. I need joy to help buoy me, to help give direction, to help me hold on to the fullness, and breadth and beauty of my humanity and the full range of choice. And I also see this showing up in other spaces to, you know, I would reference my indigenous and native American family and heritage and cultural context. And I believe from my sociological background that there's. And so I've been curious about why does this seem more out of reach for Ashkenazi Jews in general? Or why hasn't it been cultivated as much? What's that about? And I was talking about it with someone who's in my Kohenet ordination cohort. Shout out to Shemira, shout out to Pleasance, rising Kohenet where she named it, and it was so helpful to hear somebody outside of me who isn't Black identify like I'm really... April, speaking to, in terms of about my body of work. Like joy, there's like, Black joy is a thing. And that's something that is very available and it's just not quite as... There's just a different consciousness and thought pattern for Jews around this. And so, anyway, so I wanted to talk about this because, the name of my organization is Joyous Justice. And I really believe that not just exclusively joy, I like alliteration. So I chose joyous to be the framing. But to me also other things that are aligned with joy are love, empowerment, freedom. It's just this elevated, expansive place of being where you have a full range of sight, right? So, I'm like wanting to go somewhere further and I've also been talking for a while, so I want to pause'cause I feel like you have thinky things happening and I would like to know what they are.- Thinky things. You know what I'm feeling curious about as I'm listening to you describe this is, I'm wondering if the out-of-reach-ness that you are noticing is true for folks who are living more Orthodox existences. So like Orthodox Jews who live and work and worship and like everything within the more insular bubble, if there's more access to joy for them. I'm wondering like, I may be romanticizing what I think of as more authentically Jewish. I'm willing to own that that might be me projecting. But I'm thinking about the Orthodox weddings that I've attended, the Orthodox Purim celebrations, the Orthodox Seders that I've...- ...gotten to my thesis yet, but this validates my thesis. I'm liking where you're going with this. This is good.- And so I'm wondering if part of what my Jewish ancestors lost when they worked to gain whiteness was easier access to that joy. This is just like a hunch. I have no data. This is all speculative and anecdotal. But while you were talking, that's where my curiosity was going.- Yeah. And thank you for that segue. Yeah because I do think it relates to whiteness and dynamics relating to whiteness and class since class and race are deeply intertwined in the states. And depending upon where you are racially categorized, that has a number of different likely class and resource allocation implications. Yeah, I would say in short that... So basically this is what I want to get to. I had this thought a week or two ago. I think it was about two weeks ago and I feel like it was tighter than it is now, but I'm still just going to say it and there's any number of angles. But here's the main point is that, I think that there's something to... Oh, and I love how your story, what you just shared, further validates this. Is that I think the difficulty of accessing or the distance from joy is a byproduct of the Jewish middle agent status in the context of whiteness, and the ways, and is a byproduct of the designation of Jews having a conditional designation of whiteness.- Can you say more about what you mean by the middle agent role?- Sure. We talked about it at times on the podcast and I feel like there's some people who know exactly what it is. And then there's lots of folks who are pretty educated who don't. So I think it's worth. Yeah. So, historically and sociologically, it's understood by a number of scholars that the Jewish people, not all, but in many contexts, especially in Europe, but not exclusively also in the Middle East and different societies over the millennia have often been placed in a middle agent buffer role. Meaning that in whatever society they existed within, there was typically some sort of hierarchy in one way or another. And one of the ways that antisemitism operates, which is this, and so part of this middle agent status is a... And I think we could like have a discussion with historians about which came first, whether it was the middle agent status or that the middle agent status is a byproduct of antisemitism. And part of how antisemitism works is for there to be this complex, exploitative, hateful regard for Jews where Jews are over time, often disparaged and spoken poorly of, and the society in which Jews exist see that they have a use for the intelligence and skills of Jews. And so they give Jews access to various positions and do so in a way that positions Jews to be a buffer for the ruling class. So there's a cap, there's a ceiling. And what's complex about that ceiling is that that ceiling is typically higher than other, than some other. And not always'cause there are also, typically, always very poor Jews too. And very rarely, if ever, are Jews the most powerful and wealthy, like almost never. Although because of antisemitism, Jews are painted with that picture, that the wealthiest people in America, in the world are not Jews, not even close. But based upon antisemitic tropes, that's what one would think. And so historically, and in a number of society, it goes back and forth. But at times, Jews are targeted for death and targeted with death and destruction and attacks. And then at other times are given access to jobs but it's normally in middle agent roles. Meaning they are like shopkeepers or bank tellers, or maybe even the banker, but not the person who actually owns the money. They're the go-between. And so their ceiling might be higher than other folks who aren't permitted to have those kinds of jobs, but there's a cap on how far they can go in part. And, so how this works to the disservice of Jews. So it's something that Jews in this specific context are striving. I'm trying to speak about this neutrally in a specific sense. Are striving for safety and to be able to provide for their family, and also to be able to meaningfully contribute to society. And they do that through different ways like being shopkeepers. Like I said, owning stores, banking, being an advisor to the person in charge and they are set up consistently. To this day, we are, Jews are set up to be the fall guy for the sins and the abuses and the injustice that is perpetrated by the state, by people with the greatest resource, by people in power. And so this phenomena is often referred to as a middle agent role where Jews are placed in the middle of an oppression dynamic, which is a easy way to inherently say where it's easy for one to see how in that dynamic, it's a both and experience for Jews where they're both the targets of oppression and disdain from either side. And also by their very positioning, how they've been positioned, are also at times, not at fault, not to blame, but are complicit at times in different oppressive dynamics. They're the closest and at times an intermediary in an oppressive dynamic, which then serves to further set them up as the target of people who are experiencing more oppression for the people in power to convey and to use Jews as scapegoat, as a buffer from them.- And so you're saying you think that that role, that middle agent role is a factor in the distance from joy?- Yes. And I think in some ways what I'm saying, and I'd love to be in conversation about this and consider is, no, I'm not going to talk about over time. I can only talk about in this moment that I think it's worthwhile, as we, as Jews continually start to, and begin to and... Not begin to because Jews have never wholesale accepted whiteness, which is why, a number of Jews, many Jews have issues with being referred to as white. So this middle agent dynamic just shows up in a lot of different ways. It shows up around Jewish ambivalence for being categorized as white and yet for people of color, for them, they see that, and for me as someone who's proximate to Jews, I'm not even gonna talk about people of color, who aren't in the Jewish community. For me I would say, but I see that most of the time or a lot of the time, white Ashkenazi Jews are classified as white, but not all the time. And for Jews that not all the time is acute because they're striving for belonging. And now that we're approaching it from this way, it's helping me to despite my pain and frustration with certain dynamics with this. You know, be just very conscious of the need for compassion and a holistic perspective. Yeah, so basically, with the middle agent dynamic, I think that there's, basically the piece that I want to share that's like the aha that has lots of implications is that a middle agent role, the way that Jews have often been categorized, and are to this day in American society is psychologically and spiritually fraught. And I would also add that there are a number, there's a proud, beautiful history, whether it's the Bundt or different radical Jewish folks who rejected the middle agent status and said, we are here to fight for liberation, and the state came down on them hard. And so there's that. And to me, a big part of this all relates to fundamentally, what is the source for Jews of safety? Of safety. And I'm working on a increasingly making a compelling argument. To me inherently, there isn't currently safety for a reliable safety for Jews. And I think Jews are caught right now between the myth of whiteness, which I think more Jews are becoming more educated about all of the icky implications of what that means, I think for a number of Jews over time. And at some point I may disagree with this and think I'm being too forgiving. But in the context of a different cultural time, it was a part of integrating into a society. And at a time when critical race theory wasn't fully a thing yet and awareness around how inherently oppressive and crappy that is. And anyway, there's just a lot to say here. Let me just cut to the chase'cause there's so many different things I want to unpack. What I'm trying to say is, it occurred to me, I think because of this middle agent status, a byproduct of that is, like that also engages in this concept. And I think there's probably more specific name for it, of this phenomenon, but I could call it the psychology of choice. And as we've come to know in recent years and well before that, but I feel like it started to be a part of pop culture awareness, or at least my world that that choice or multiple choices at times actually causes more suffering. And that it's just an inherently more complicated, even while it is more beneficial. So emotionally it is a more complicated and fraught place to be in this middle agent role where one is trying to choose which people are my people, and neither one of these groups are necessarily us and we are us and how to navigate that. And the lack of clarity and they're not being one specific choice, and being pitted in the middle is a source of great collective psychosocial suffering for Jews. And there's a part of me as a Jewish woman of color that wants Jews to choose the side of liberation and release from the oppressor. And it's not that simple.- Right.- And I am in the process right now of figuring out for me. And part of it, luckily, since we do work around this, Tracie, is, either through what we're currently offering or what we may develop in the future. And also being able to lift up and list, and share out other things is that, to me this is... I've recently gotten trained in energy healing. And one of the things that they talk about when you're doing energy healing is that you can't simply take out, work in partnership with the divine to remove a negative habit or trait, unless you are facilitating a replacement, a healthy replacement for that thing. And so to me, what I'm thinking about is almost like as if something, like if there was like an image of a stick holding up something, holding up a table or something and what I want. Like to me, the task has become and how much I want to be part of it, although I do, but in what ways that I can that are good for my well-being and my spiritual vitality is us collectively. You and I, Tracie, and also a number of our allied folks, figuring out what is going to replace that false sense of safety because the crappy news and also the good news for me in terms of potential for liberation, is that conditional whiteness, whiteness in general and conditional whiteness, which is what Jews have had access to is incredibly fickle. And it's not actually a good solution. It's not, right? But the thought of leaving that is understandably terrifying. And also, I think, it's ultimately what Jews need to do but that is a daunting and horrifying prospect. Please, Tracie.- I think even bigger than the fear factor of it is the, what maybe shouldn't be, but does feel like radical imagination. We are so, so deeply trained to have the either or thinking. I mean, even the paralysis of choice that you described, my understanding of that is that it's a lot harder to make a choice between three or four than it is between two. Like the people get stuck when we have more choices.- The level of suffering goes up much more when there's no choice versus a choice, right?- I mean, the studies that I recall from like Chip and Dan Heath's work and other sort of behavioral economists who talk about this stuff, is that like, when they do like jellies, like what jelly do you want in the grocery store, right? That's the one that I've seen. When they had two, they sold like crazy. But when they had three or four or six, they stopped selling because people just can't choose between that many choices or Americans can't. I am wondering if it's a cultural thing. So I feel like, even bigger than the fear, is it feels as though like, it's, well, what else is there? In America, it is a choice of two; white or not white. And that's not accurate. And that is not natural. And it doesn't have to be that way. I completely follow you there, April. And also that is the way it has been presented for a very long time. And so, it's knowing that one can say, C. none of the above, and what that looks like and how to live into it, and how to actually...- Live and lead from that.- And create the space where other see it, and acknowledge it. I'm realizing as I'm talking that perhaps we have things to learn from our trans and non-binary, and gender non-conforming siblings, who are actively working on that sort of third space.- Yeah.- Now, and in recent years, and are, I think making headway. And also, I wanna acknowledge getting a lot, a lot of violent pushback from society at large. So I think the fear factor is real. And also just knowing how to create a third way when only two have been presented even though neither are actually fully available to white Jews.- Or makes sense. And I want to add some things. This is really great, Tracie. Oh, there's so many good things. Yeah. And so you were right about the piece about the psychology of choice. So thank you for adding that, greater depth. I think what's coming up for me is, I would say that I don't think I would argue that I suspect that gender based violence is much more likely than violence against Jews if Jews were to take a third space that I think that a lot of different forms, I think that a foundational oppression in our society, a deeply rooted foundation is around men and women, that what men are placed above women. And I think a core part of my gender nonconforming and non-binary folks are hated. Whether or not it's conscious or not is because their existence threatens that entire oppressive dynamic. And that that is deeply entrenched in the fabric of how marriage, how multiple foundation, how money is moved in this, how resources are allocated, the very fabric of society. I think in some ways it's a bit more foundational than specifically, and it's also 50%, right? So it's something that literally impacts everyone.- Gender does in a way.- Gender, yes. Gender does. And how people choose to identify or not identify because to me the reason why gender nonconforming and non-binary folks are such a threat in the number of ways is because their existence and their teaching and wisdom threatens to queer and upend, how lots of things function in our society. So I just want to say that. And I'll continue to think about that more, whereas I still think it's very dangerous for two. I think it's complicated in different ways and there are different potential implications. But from my perspective, it's dangerous, no matter what, for Jews. And so I would prefer that we take the courageous choice that is moving us, that is more likely to move us in the direction of justice than maintain a system that is not safe for us, nor anyone else. And foundationally rejects the ways that Jews are leveraged to be complicit in the oppression of others.- I'm really interested in how, like what that looks like, because I push back against my co-religionists, Ashkenazi Jews who say "I'm not white, I'm Jewish." Who wanna sort of say that because...- Yeah, I meant to talk about that too. Thank you. Thank you for circling back to this.- I really wanna talk about that.- It's more nuanced than that.- Exactly. And I think it's really important that we kind of dig into what this looks like, what you're describing right now looks like because I feel like part of my role in the liberation that is all of our liberation is acknowledging the ways in which the color of my skin gives me unearned privileges. Like that is a part of my role. And also, I want to make the choice that you are suggesting. Can you talk a bit more about how you see that?- Yeah. So one, I think part of it is spiritually making the choice without fully knowing what. I think part of it is getting clear on values first. I think before we talk about what it looks like, I think it's more of developing a determination around that that's similar, but different to the ways in which in different Black spaces I've been in, even though it's difficult for us to imagine, and both scary and also what we want, that's the why it's called radical imagination is envisioning what would I look like as a liberated person? And how do I start to live into that when I have deeply ingrained patterns that tell me that that is how I survive in this world? But still, and just start to engage, right? That's part of what, and not that I'm saying anyone has to move abroad, but that's part of what drew me to Senegal, is I noticed when I was here having been asked that question and thinking like, how do I start of the existing paradigm? And one of the things that I naturally did that I do in other spaces consciously, but that I started doing over time or without even realizing it, I think, is that question stayed with me. Even in some ways I had a specific answer, but it didn't feel like it was enough.- What question? What question stayed with you?- So I don't remember how exactly the prompt went, but it was something like, share one anecdote of what your living will be like in the context of collective liberation? Of if you were to be living outside of a paradigm of race and racism, outside of a paradigm of sexism and other forms of oppression, what would that look like? What would that look like? Right? And one of several key things that drew me to Senegal is, and there's very much a dynamic around colonialism here. It's not like this is Gan Eden or like, you know, the garden of Eden. But when I was here in different ways, I saw I felt closer to liberation. And I could see in the ways that Senegalese people move in their bodies, the way they express anger at times publicly, the way they play in the ocean and get wet, and get their hair wet in public. I saw some models of things that I hadn't seen before about what it looks like to be more free in my body, and to see what it looks like for Black people to feel safe, to fully own all of their power. And even just the way Black people look at people on the road. If something funny happens, Black people look with the face of... Senegalese people here look with a face of expectation. Like, what are you doing? Like I am safe in my body and I expect things on this road to go well, and that is much less frequent in America. There's a sense of am I about to get targeted? Am I about to lose my life? Who is on the other side of that? And there's just a much more demure, calm, as opposed to, excuse me, what do you think you are? Right? And that feels liberating to me to be in a space where that, you know, and there are other examples that are probably more profound, but it's in those simple things that, right? And so for me, there's a specific space here where radical imagination is key and for us to notice in our bodies. So I think to me, part of it, Tracie, and I think this is something offline, both in this episode and offline, we can continue to discuss, because I think the how, I think it's more about getting clear, like allowing ourselves to get clear on where we're going and thinking that that's actually possible, and worth working toward. And I think the specifics of how that may show up, I think, especially in the context of movement building work can look like different facets and some of us can choose to take on and own'cause it's a lot for any one person. I think if somebody's up for that, great, but that's a lot of work and exhausting. And I think it's more about us getting clear and visioning and finding some facet of that vision that feels delicious and worth fighting for, and living into and finding our slice and connecting with other folks, and seeing what they're living and saying like, oh, that's intriguing to me too. I wanna start to take. I think it's non-linear and I think it's intuitive. And I think it's based upon how we're feeling in our bodies and what we feel ready and safe for. And some of us might find it more comforting to dive in, and some of us might find other facets. But to me, part of it is a commitment and deciding to live into it without fully knowing all of the how. And recognizing that the more we can do that, the more our brains will have space to start to create what that how looks like. I also think it's worth naming but I think there are folks certainly within our community and beyond who are also already doing work in this vein. And it's worthwhile for us to look at those models and see how that resonates, both around race and I think also, perhaps in other areas. Like where have people started to live into something that is totally new or not new, but is new in a specific context. You're thinking something, Tracie and I'm really feeling it. What is it?- I'm thinking back again and just realizing how distant I am from joy, which is where we started in this conversation with specifically with regard to this potential of a third way. Like one of the ways that I have tried to live into that third way is that knowing that my counterparts who are Black have to have the talk with their kids about the cops. I have had a talk with my daughter. We have it on, you know, semi-regularly about how, if she's with Black or brown friends and the cops show up, she stays with that friend. She grabs their hand and stays with them because her presence could be the difference between harm and not harm. And to me that feels like authentically me choosing something other than whiteness, for myself and for my kid and it feels very far from joy. So, like I'm just coming back to where you started this whole conversation and realizing my own distance from limitations. I mean, I'm willing to own this, maybe my own limiting factors. But like, I'm such a more pragmatic thinker. Like that's where I go, but that's kind of what I've just been thinking about as you've continued to talk and make kind of bringing it back around to where we started this conversation about distance from joy.- And what I wanna say to you is that to me, and I... It's like a knowing, but I'm not used to talking about it. So I'm figuring that out in real time. But I would say that that choice is the foundation of joy. That that choice is the entry point or the beginning of joy. There's something about, it almost feels like warrior or clarity. The clarity and the stake in the ground that the wholeness that starts to result from that resolve does not mean that there will be joy all the time, but it also provides a lot of clarity that within that, and the sense of purposefulness and conviction, and shit's crappy but I am doing, and I love that example because it's so, like, it makes me emotional. It means a lot to me when you said that I was like, that's like accomplice type stuff.- Right, we've been having that conversation since she was like five.- Right?- But I hear that. I hear what you're saying is that when I say that to my kid, I'm asking her to choose relationship with her friends over safety. And that is, I think maybe kind of what you're talking about. Like I'm asking her to choose...- Over singular.- Right, over that specific moment. Yes.- Right.- So choosing the safety of the whole, rather than the safety of herself.- Which I think is actually safety, but how we've been conditioned to think is that, right? And it is, and she is putting more on the line, but it's also likely both in that moment and in the future.- Right.- Because there's a part of this that I think Jews don't, and it's tricky because of the way that Jews have been oppressed and have been targeted by so many folks. But as someone who is Black and who believes in my Black people, I think of my Black people as being incredibly loyal.- Yeah.- And embracing folks who we see as having by being by our side.- Yeah.- And the collective around that. And the collective energy'cause to me, part of it's about a broader, it's both that moment, which is a huge shift in intervention, and countering of oppressive dynamics that you're facilitating, but that has many substantial ripple effects from that moment, right? And that choice. I may I say, so another piece I think is courage. Is that when you make choices like that, you are living more from a place of courage in your heart and less from your brain and thinking like, how do I navigate this? As opposed to I'm doing what my soul says is right. And who I am and the entirety of my spirit and being. And when you live from that, the more one lives from that place, and certain people by conditioning, by circumstance have had to live from that place, because they did not have resources to get to, or trappings that could make them think that anything else would give them safety other than the connection they had with the people around them, and the conviction they had in their own hearts. Right? I'm feeling this so much. It feels like, it seems like you wanna... This is the beginning of the conversation.- Yeah, there's definitely a lot more. My daughter has also seen me stop. If I can, if I see a Black motorist like broken down, then I'll stop and wait with them until their ride comes or the tow truck comes. And so my daughter's seeing me do that. Or I followed one guy whose car was having trouble to make sure he got to the gas station, stuff like that. And I think something you said just now is really important and I wanna lift it back up again for myself, which is that it doesn't mean there will be joy all the time. I know, I know that we get hung up on race, that we want it to be sort of a static thing and it's not, it's contextual. And I think I get hung up on the idea of joy, or contentment or whatever that sort of positive emotion and way of being like, I think of it as like a state that I will achieve, like Nirvana and just keep it, you know. Like I wrote an essay recently where I described it as like, you know, you're tall enough to ride the ride. You never have to check again. Like once you reach that height, and that's the way I've been thinking about it, and that's just not accurate. And I think I am causing myself more suffering by thinking of it that way, because then I think I must be doing something wrong that I'm not there.- Right. And I'm not fully sure because it's something that comes up a lot in Buddhism, as well as in mystical spaces. And I, at a different point in the conversation, Tracie, at a different point on the journey, have been in the past few months, like the past six months have been refining this, myself, that it's much more about joy and love and freedom in these higher vibrational states. That it's much more like riding a horse. You can walk somewhere, but if you hop on that, it can get you farther, but you're gonna keep getting knocked off. The horse is gonna get too wild. The terrain's gonna get too rough, you're gonna fall off. And then the part of the practice is to heal yourself. And when you're ready, say, okay, now I'm ready to hop back on this horse and knock off. And, anytime I get knocked off, part of the practice is being more gentle and at peace with the... Like that that actually is just always gonna happen. But we know that that choice when we're ready and when it feels useful to us, that fast track to just feeling better, like it just from my perspective likely at times, not always.'Cause at times we also just wanna walk and give our britches a rest. But like feels better to be moving more quickly, to have more options, to have a higher view. But it's impossible to be there all the time. And also the horse needs a rest. Like we all just need to break from that, right? For me, Joyous Justice is not the... To me, I think in some ways like the only like positive vibes only are all good vibes comes from somebody. But I suspect it was people who misunderstood the teachings of mystics and wise teachers who are saying, when you are able to, and if you want, you getting into a high vibrational state is of great service to you. None of the teachers I know. Thich Nhat Hanh, even the more woo teachers who I've learned from, whom I've learned and followed, none of them ever say you're supposed to be there. They say, of course. And we get back there faster because we don't make it, it's fine. Like whatever we're going through, we move, you know, it's like a Willow, we move with the wind. And eventually we come back to center as the wind blows. We're human. We are actually human. And even some folks as I've been dancing with this myself in different ways, even enlightenment, even when one is enlightened, part of it's that they are at peace when things aren't at. They're at peace with themselves when they aren't at peace. It's not that they're always like, a child died in front of me and I'm fine. No. Like, no. It's having a different, more dynamic fluid relationship and being okay with all of it. Having profound compassion that makes all of it okay. And once in that place saying when we have the choice, what state would be of greatest service to me that I have access to right now? And I'm also not going to force myself to be somewhere where I cannot be. And by not forcing ourselves, we then more quickly have access to have that choice once again, by letting things move through us. I feel like we just did like five episodes.- We covered a lot. We definitely covered a lot.- All right, Tracie, I think it's at that time for us to wrap up. We've opened up a number of different threads here, and these are threads where I really live and think and ponder and that Tracie and I discuss, and is on the leading edge of, as we think about future programs, or things we might want to do, these are all relevant themes. And there's just a lot to explore here. And what I would invite folks to do is accept the invitation to let, if something resonated with you or brought up curiosity, or brought up some pain, for you to let it rumble through you. Specifically, if there's something that's really acute, that comes up for you around your life story, or the journey of your family, feel free to seek out support. And if it's not quite that intense, I invite you to continue to be in dialogue with us. Obviously in our Facebook group, always feel free to chime in and give us a heads-up, or visit our website at jewstalkracialjustice.com and submit feedback. And we will continue to be in conversation. This is just the opening of what is going to be part of the body of work that we are engaging and helping to lead and facilitate in the Jewish community. And I personally believe the different things we're talking about here, and hopefully you heard it and felt that too are deeply a part of and central to us moving forward as a Jewish people with the greatest amount of courage, and ideally the greatest amount, wherever possible of safety and support, and deep self-compassion and pride. Pride in the best sense of who we are, what we've been through, what we survived. And also saying, and starting, seeding, watering the seeds of radical imagination around what would it look like for us to live in a world in which we are actually safe for almost the first time in human history? It's a big task. It's as radical as any Black visionary's radical imagination is. So, yeah, so as much as that is generative, we invite you to consider that and also to continue to take it easy. If you're just like, wow, that was a lot, and I just wanna relax and settle, that is also very much a part of this work to somatically check in with ourselves and tend to our bodies and help our bodies, and beings know that we are safe and okay. And it is safe for us to engage in this conversation. So Tracie, anything else you wanna add?- I'll just say that we covered a lot of ground today, and none of the conversations that we had today are finished. None of them are finished. We are going to keep talking and keep circling, and having new insights and new questions and new answers.- Yes, here, here.- [April] Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at Elliot Hammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble, and keep going.