Ep 73: Colleyville, Community Healing, and Showing Up

It’s been almost two weeks since the Colleyville synagogue hostage situation, an antisemitic event that was incredibly scary for Jewish communities. During this conversation from just a few days after, we dive into the feelings of isolation that many of us are experiencing, the all-encompassing nature of grief, our internalized terror and communal need for healing, and what it looks likes when we show up and support one another across lines of difference. 

Check out our discussion/reflection questions for this episode:  https://joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-73

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Send us a question, idea, insight, or thought:  https://joyousjustice.com/jews-talk-racial-justice-questions

Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director, and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/

Support the work our Jewish Black & Native woman-led vision for collective liberation here: https://joyousjustice.com/support-our-work

Read more of Tracie’s thoughts at her blog: https://www.bmoreincremental.com/

Learn more about Racial Justice Launch Pad and join the waitlist: https://joyous-justice.mykajabi.com/rjlp-waitlist-1

Read more about the Colleyville synagogue hostage crisis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleyville_synagogue_hostage_crisis

Learn more about Baltimore Ceasefire 365: https://baltimoreceasefire.com/

Learn more about what mutual aid is and how to get involved: https://www.thecut.com/2020/09/what-exactly-is-mutual-aid-how-to-get-involved.html

Read more about Cherie Brown and her thought leadership: https://www.tikkun.org/author/a_brownc/

Transcript

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- [Tracie] The events in Colleyville, Texas, on January 15th had many in the Jewish community reeling. In this week's show, recorded only a few days later, we take time to reflect on our own processing of the events and what we are seeing in our networks and communities.- [April] This is "Jews Talk Racial Justice" with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world change takes courage.- Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.- Hi Tracie.- Hey April.- (sighing) You know, there are a few different issues that have come up in our mind that are "Jews Talk Racial Justice" worthy in the aftermath of the synagogue hostage situation that took place in Texas on January 15th, 16th?- 16th.- 16th.- No, you're right.- It was the 15th, yeah.- I'm sorry.- Yeah, no worries. And it's tricky, because normally you're the one who's right about these things, so.- You're right, it was Saturday, it was Shabbat.- I'm pretty sure, yeah. Yeah and so, and also you were the first to say that these are some important topics that are in our wheelhouse and proximate to what happened. So you know, I would echo what you said pre-recording and say that we acknowledge we are, as we navigate this conversation, we will dive in and I think really get into some material and we're going to be a bit more gentle than usual in light of how a lot of people are and may be understandably feeling right now. In some ways I kind of would prefer to have this conversation just with you Tracie, but I think it could potentially also be a really great podcast episode, and that by the end of the podcast episode, I don't know if I will have landed on my sharpened or refined thought leadership on the topic, but I will be in a stronger place. And we've occasionally done this on the podcast. I generally, as I think a lot of people do, often prefer to come out of the gate polished and clear. And I don't know, and I've had thoughts about this before, but something about this moment feels new. And so I had a question that I posed to you and that I think there's background and just different ways we may navigate around it, and hit it directly or not. Again, just bearing in mind that even though it's been almost a couple of weeks at the point, by the time this airs, this incident for particularly, but not necessarily exclusively, Ashkenazi Jews. For white Ashkenazi Jews touches, a deep thousand-years-old wound of having been lethally targeted by anti-Jewish oppression. And as I've often said before, it's so deep that I do think it's possible through a lot of collective healing, that I think it is possible to heal, but there's still a long journey that our community has. And so this can be very raw in a at times explicit, and often subliminal just embodied feeling of terror sort of way. So we wanna be sensitive to that, as I said. And I will just be transparent and say that I definitely do experience White Ashkenazi Jewish terror at times, but as a Black multiracial Ashkenazi Jewish woman, I don't think I feel the same thing other people feel. I think it, this is not actually the topic, so I'll get that in a second, and we'll come back to this'cause it relates to my question. But also as a Black woman in America who has not a thousands-year-old, but a very daily life, past few hundred years, and in my own lifetime, particularly when we were living in Southwestern Virginia, I have a very real sense of, and in general, whenever I travel throughout the states, of walking in my light-skinned Black body and feeling vibes and energy around me, and at times being on high alert or ever so gently leaving a place because it does not feel physically safe, right? And so we recently launched a group online that we'll be sharing more about in the weeks ahead, and in facilitating and holding space for this group, it made this question all the more visceral for me, right? Where we want to back and support and educate Jews in the direction of more consistently and competently and courageously pursuing racial justice in their personal lives and in work. And in some ways this is easy, an easy premise because many Jews today and historically care about this subject. And it's tricky, and that's the reason why we created the group too, because there are lots of mostly hidden and indirect, but also explicit barriers that keep a lot of Jews from showing up as powerfully as they want, or being as resourced as they want and need. So my question is how, I know that this terror, and this is just, this is just kind of like a drop in the pool. But that the lack of opportunities to feel held and supported in this terror indirectly/directly profoundly impacts Jews' capacity to effectively and competently advance racial justice, if and when in acute moments and chronically below the radar but very much present, there is a constant fear of death, or threat of violent anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish targeting. So how can I effectively lead a group around this, knowing this moment and other moments like it, and I think there are ways to support and move people through this. And I think part of it, I mean, what was intuitively coming up for me now is that it will become evident with time if I continue leading and facilitating this space and letting people surface things as they are ready and I can offer support and reframes, is moments like this. I think many Jews have not had adequate liberatory trauma healing support to synthesize this in a way that it works through their system, and doesn't trigger deep terror that locks down parts of their heart, including their courage center and their capacity to do effective racial justice work.- Right, so I think what you're doing right now in terms of naming the situation feels really important, and also resonant with what we talk about at Joyous Justice all the time, right? I think one of the things that is so, one of the aspects of the horribleness in terms of the experience of, and I'll speak for myself, like I was rattled. I was deeply rattled by the situation in Texas. I think part of that is that that with the conflation of whiteness and Jewishness in my own, like it's hard for me to divorce those things because I am both of those things. And as a White person, I'm relatively safe from targeting by my identity. As a Jew I'm not. And so it's still a little bit of a surprise for me as a Gen X Jew, American Jew, I'm still sort of surprised by the antisemitism. And then that feels, that I feel just totally blindsided by the hatred and the danger, the very real danger. Even though I know intellectually it is real, what you just said about how it could happen anywhere. Like, I'm not sure that I'm carrying that with me all the time, especially not in the way that people of color have to for safety's sake, carry that with them all the time. And so there's an element of surprise, which makes it all the more sort of terrifying because the adrenaline like, you know, kicks in the way that it does quickly. There's also the isolation that we talk about all the time, about how isolation is a part of-- Mm yeah, please say more.- Is a part of the work, and I feel like there's a bit of that with this too, whereby, I think the folks who in my feed were feeling like, what I read when I see Jews say like,"Why aren't more people posting about this? Why aren't more non-Jews showing up right now in this moment?" I see that as isolation, which is part of our integrated life now, as Jews who are acculturated. In the shtetl, we didn't wonder why our friends and neighbors weren't talking about the pogrom,'cause our only friends and neighbors were other Jews. And now that like, there's this whole, we all are coming at with our intersectional communities, each community has its own and they, which is not to say that folks aren't showing up for Jews when we are hurting, I think they are. But if your particular feed in social media, which is the way, especially in the pandemic-- It does occlude, yeah.- We are engaging with folks. If your particular feed doesn't have the right non-Jewish folks who are posting at that moment, then it feels like no one's talking about it.- Yeah, I never posted-- And that feels isolating and terrifying.- Yeah, I know this was also gonna be something that we dive into deeper, so I don't wanna go too far into this, but I also want to say, as you were talking, I just had like a thought that I remembered from moments like this before, is that I think too at times that I wish, how do I wanna say this? I think at times when people say that, it's because specific people in their feed didn't say, I think it's not necessarily, and that it's safer to ask,"Why is no one showing up?" Than saying, "Peter my neighbor,""my Christian cousin Paul,""my daughter's teacher Sarah," you know, whatever Ms. Jones. Why are they like, because that's right, that I think there might be like a, kind of like when we talk, in different different movement spaces, including in different movement in social change spaces, including Joyous Justice trainings, and we talk about speaking from the I. This to me feels like one of those moments in part where I think perhaps they could. The specificity is both painful and they don't feel ready to do that. But at times I wonder, and I don't think it's necessarily all the time, but if a number of times or the good percentage of the time, your question isn't actually,"Why is no one showing up?", because people are showing up. And so either they're not on your, you're not connected to those communities or individuals, or in deep enough relationship that you're on their list of people they personally call, which in my life, and with my mom, with a number of movement leaders, we work across lines of difference. When something comes up, we call each other because it's not about optics. It's about actually caring and supporting each other and offering mutual aid in a time of need. I'm not sure about the correct use of mutual aid, let's check up on that. But you know, like offering mutual support and love and solidarity, but the support is out there. And so it might also be pinpointing. And the reason I say this is not to critique, but is to say to someone, if you're someone who has said this in the past, or who says this or wonders this, is one to check in and see, is it actually about specific people? And are those relationships that you could reach for and bring it up with this person and/or or reach for relationships with the people who are saying things when this happens. It's just to point out that there are some options. So sorry, please continue, Tracie.- Well, the thing that occurs to me actually, while you were talking, the residents for me is like-- Oh by the way, I wanna take back that apology. That was an internalized sexist sorry. There was no need for sorry. I just could have said"Tracie, please continue." Sorry go ahead, I did it again. (laughing) Tracie, back to you.- Yeah, thanks. So what's coming up for me, what's resonating for me really right now too, is when my dad passed. He's been gone eight years now, but (sighing) when my dad passed, like in the first few weeks, even few months of grief, it was so all-encompassing for me that it also felt isolating when like, how can, I can remember sort of thinking, like,"How can you be going about your lives?" Like, "My world is crashing down." Whoo, didn't expect that. And I think that, it's that same sort of like all-encompassing grief. Then when you see other people who are just going to Target or crafting-- Ooh, I can relate to that.- Or doing whatever it is that they, it's just a regular Saturday or Sunday for them, when you're experiencing a grief that is just overwhelming. I feel like that's part of the "Why aren't people?"- So true.- "Where are people?" Which is not, when I can step out of the all-encompassing grief, like when I look back now eight years later, it is not the case that I wasn't held when my father passed. That's not the case at all. I had a lot of friends and loved ones who really came to hold me and my sister. And also it wasn't enough (laughing) because that kind of, that grief is just so much. And so I think that's another, I think you're right.- Excellent, yeah.- I think that you're right, that sometimes it's not, the question is not actually,"Why isn't anyone," it's,"Why are these people?"- And sometimes-- It is.- It's just no matter, no matter how much it wouldn't be enough because it feels so overwhelming.- Or the bar is so high.- And you feel so overwhelmed.- Right? I thank you so much and, I wish I could give you a hug right now, for retroactive Tracie. I hear you, two thoughts come to mind. One I feel like maybe have shared on the podcast before. I can't remember, but I remember it was like, it was a while ago, I was in Boston. So this was like 2014 or '15 that, I think it was over the summer, and there were Black kids at a pool. And thank God nobody, in Texas I believe, and no one died. But this this police officer-- Oh, when he slammed that-- Took this little girl-- 14-year-old. To the ground, yeah.- And it wrecked me, and I felt similarly. I remember I was riding the Boston subway that day and was like, "Why aren't more people upset about little girls being treated?" And there was something about it, I don't know, like in her swimsuit, like as a young woman, as a developing young woman and in a relatively, like clearly no danger. You can literally see everything that's on her body, which is not much, it's a two-piece swimsuit, and something about her tiny, she was tall but she was thin, about her vulnerable body being treated with such violence. And to be clear, this is not the same as the magnitude of your loss. But I remember feeling the exact same sentiment. I remember being on the Green Line underground and being like, "Why aren't these White people bothered about this?" And in my head, I was like,"Maybe they don't know." But this is so upsetting to me that Black children, because I made it about this bigger thing. It was both the incident, and also what it represented, that something like that could happen, and there wasn't a national uproar, it just ripped open a part of my heart.- Right, I think that's the experience that the Jews who are saying,"Where is everyone?" That's where they are. That exact place that you're just describing."Maybe you don't know, do you not know, how can you not?" Like, "If you know, how are you not saying something, doing something?"- Right, which I want to name explicitly is a need for deeper healing and support. But I actually, I think even if, to your point, even if lots of people stood up and said something that awful thing still happened. There was a rupture in healing. There's still likely a need for healing and witnessing and being held and/or like held literally physically or held in person by someone sitting across a chair in a different chair from you looking at you and saying,"Yeah this is awful, and we are gonna fight this together. You are not alone." And let that person cry and wail for as many hours, likely over multiple sessions as they needed to have their pain be witnessed and move through their system. Sorry, you were about to say something.- I'm reminded of, there's a story out of Baltimore that a colleague of mine told a colleague in the work. Another White Jew told this story. In Baltimore, since Freddie Gray's murder it's, the loss of life in the city to homicide is unacceptable. And there's this amazing organization here in Baltimore called Baltimore Ceasefire, and they started calling a ceasefire every quarter where it was like, "Nobody shoot anybody, nobody kill anybody for 48 hours, we can do this." And then it's turned into Ceasefire 365, and they're doing just amazing work to try and both hold the trauma and also address the root causes of violence and poverty and et cetera. Anyway, one of the early ceasefire weekends was in 2018, I believe. And one of the downtown synagogues did a big thing for Ceasefire, and like just a big to-do for Ceasefire. And did, I don't remember the details of what it was, how they showed up, but they showed up. And then several months later in 2018, the loss of 11 worshipers at Tree of Life in Pittsburgh. And neighbors of that downtown synagogue, Black non-Jewish neighbors of that downtown synagogue, just showed up unbidden to sort of hold and just be there, and be proximate to the synagogue members at this, these mostly White synagogue members at this downtown synagogue in Baltimore. And one of the women spoke to this colleague of mine and said, one of the women who showed up, one of the Black non-Jewish neighbors who showed up, said specifically like, "You all were here when we did that thing around Ceasefire. And so when this happened, I wanted to show up for you." Which is your point April, about how leaders show up, not in big optics ways with statements, but like checking in on one another. And so what I'm thinking about is how that experience of that sort of all-encompassing fear and grief and despair that so many of us felt as we watched things unfold and feared for the worst, how that can inform our behavior going forward when we see situations that are causing that kind of constellation of feelings in other intersectional identities, and how we can show up to be the folks we wish we had had so that we can then create that world where we show up for one another in those moments. And that's what I'm really thinking about right now.(sighing) I also wanna shift a little bit, still on the Colleyville situation. The Shabbat that it happened was a Shabbat Shirah, when we read the part of Exodus where Israelites walk through on dry land, and then the seas crashed back over the Egyptian pursuers. And this is not a fully-formed thought folks, but I feel like there is resonance in the, when I attended Torah study on Zoom with my fellow congregants here in Baltimore, there were like 20 of us, and like, there was real discomfort among those of us in the room with the treatment of the Egyptian pursuers and their death, which felt like maybe unnecessary. Like, why did Hashem hurl them into the sea, or shake them off, whatever the translation of that word is that we want, when they were already trying to go, they were trying to whatever. And we talked about that for a while. We talked about possibly the most quoted Midrasha on that portion is where the angels start to rejoice, and God says, "Stop, they were also my children." Like, "We don't rejoice in that death." And so the death of the hostage taker, at least so far, maybe by the time this airs we'll have more conversations, but so far we're recording this only a few days after and there hasn't, it just-- I haven't seen that, but I also haven't taken time to scour and look but, actually come to think about it, I think I've seen people intentionally avoid the subject.- Yes, I agree.- I think, and when I actually, when I notice that, it feels better to me, because to me it's, because I was sad, and as someone whose voice and values at times has been agitational for my White Ashkenazi Jews, and given that there weren't other pressing issues, like when different things were happening around the Women's March and cross cultural dynamics, and there were multiple variables, there were times where I felt it necessary like,"I know this is hard, but if this continues, this is going to hurt our community and this," but this isn't happening here, right? So.- To be fair, I haven't seen anyone celebrating this man's death.- No.- I've seen celebration that the four hostages are safe.- Right.- I have not seen anyone celebrating that.- And so I was sad, right. And so I was sad that, thank you. That helps me remember what I was going to say. And I know I interjected, so I'll keep it quick, Tracie.- No, I'm done.- But it just occurred to me that I think a number of the leaders are taking time to be mindful, and also are taking a little bit of privilege,(sighing) which potentially one could critique. But at this moment it feels like it's reasonable to have a day or two or three just to celebrate that members of your community that has been historically targeted for millennia are safe, and give your nervous system time to re-center prior to stepping into restorative justice, and making sure not only you, but there's a lot of the people in my feed are leaders of communities. They're clergy, they're organizational leaders. They're tracking their people right now.- It's also the case that like, I think this is something that I wanna hold on to more consciously, that those leaders are helping their communities through trauma while they themselves are navigating the same trauma.- Exactly, yeah totally, absolutely yes.- And that's, I think that's really significant to note.- And, but what I would say is, is that, no, it's been bothering me and it's been like gently nagging at me, and I will just speak for me. I think the reasons why I didn't do it are okay this time, in light of me trying to be extra compassionate and sensitive for where my community is, but something within me is not at peace and doesn't feel like I was fully accountable to my movement partners in not writing a post that said,"I am rejoicing the safe return of four members of my community, of my Jewish community. And yet I am very sad that a life was lost. I don't have enough information about whether it was feasible or not for his life to be saved. And he did something very wrong and awful, and we are all children of God. And I'm sad, you know, I don't know the details, I'm not judging anyone." But I don't know, something. Something that named a named sorrow that I don't think tons of people were expecting. But somebody's sad about this man's death and from a restorative justice perspective, which I believe in deeply, this was a sad outcome.- Even just the Midrash, the most quoted Midrash on this.- Thank you.- That on the portion that was being read the day that this happened is, as I said, when God chastised the angels for rejoicing that the Israelites were free, because in order to get them free, the Egyptians had to perish.- And here's why I didn't say something, is that I didn't want Jews who weren't saying something to feel indirectly-- Chastised.- Chastised.- Yeah. Agreed.- Yeah, but it's still, I'm gonna take a breath or two, (exhaling) and I invite you my friend, listening in, to do the same if that's helpful. (exhaling) I think I've shared before, and so I think it, now it has a good corollary in this moment for me, after multiple, multiple, you know, a few dozen times of, although usually it was, there was already a death of Black, unarmed Black people being shot by police. I was like, "I have to find a way to metabolize this in my system so I can stay afloat and still do it justice." And I think that's a part of the thing that's happening. That's why this just feels so big. (exhaling) Is that I think, I've heard people say, and I feel like I've seen people not fully knowing what to do with the terror that moments like this, incidents like this trigger, like what to do with it. And so then it ends up showing up in unseemly places and in ways.- Yeah, I'm coming back to sort of, I said this earlier, but I can imagine sort of allowing that un-metabolized, unprocessed terror to turn into bitterness and sort of like, "Well you didn't show up for me, so I'm not gonna show up for you." And I am I'm choosing and inviting that we actually, whether or not we feel, how we feel that we didn't get, let's become that in the future to model it for others rather than trying to take vengeance in some sort of way.- Yeah and to me, a sign of vengeance is near always a sign of an absence of healing.- Yeah, agreed.- For while I was, for me it was never, well occasionally at times I would feel a desire for vengeance, but it was more just like bitterness and hurting. And for me, the Scorpio way through that, it's not fighting, it's not vengeance, it's like flight or freeze. It's just like, just gonna wall off. I'm just going to leave the Jewish community. And I'm just going to leave working in Jewish communal space, right? And it was through healing and a mentor catching this and being like, "No, you're an amazing leader." And like, "Yeah, they really hurt you and they were really racist. But let me pull you into this healing circle." Here's what I wanna say from my Black Cherokee multi-racial Jewish perspective. Having been through a lot of moments like this in my own life, where members of my community have been dangerously or fatally targeted, members of my own family have endured immense oppression and suffering, and it has generated profound fear and terror within me. I think I started to speak about this a little bit before, but I just wanna name here, the fear from my perspective has a very finite purpose. I think there is an immense need and a totally different body of work to engage in any number of practices that support each of us in ways that are helpful for us to heal, to heal from the trauma and release the internalized terror. But to me, I make a bit of a distinction, even though I think they kind of work together, between our internalized terror and fear and the fear we let rule our mind. And that fear we let rule our mind, other than, which doesn't even have to come from fear, us making sure that we are taking measures to work across lines of difference. Effectively to think about communal liberatory and other means of safely and accountably, keeping us safe. That fear, at least for me in my experience, can be highly limiting. And what I want for us as Jewish people is to be our most powerful, brave selves. First of all, as I often talk about in our work, I want us to have an opportunity and space to take the time that we need in the ways that we need, including fumbling through a little bit, exploring, figuring out what works for us, taking time to heal. And that that is part of the work. I think for a lot of Jews, as I've at times mentioned before, as Cherie Brown teaches, a way that terror can manifest is in a pattern that she refers to as scared active. So rather than focusing on the fear, just diving into action. Which shows up all over racial justice work in the Jewish community and at times is helpful, but it's usually not so helpful. And so I want us in time, and this is both in the now for those who have access to it, and for those, this is planting a seed, let me plant the seed and water it, or water the seed that likely has already been planted at some point along your journey, that healing is worthwhile and can lead to a very different state of existence. I think often people think that we will succumb to the fear or whatever unhealed emotion that is there, but we can actually move through it and on the other side of it, our brain and our body actually function differently, once large pieces of the trauma has been released and we have new possibilities available to us. So enough of that specific tangent. The other thing that I want to put out there, I both want to say this so you can bookmark it, or just as a reminder, that you can know that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, that it is possible in the world as it is today, to get to a place where you have skills and networks and connections that work for you, that help you process and metabolize crappy to horrific situations and continue to have profound resilience and show up powerfully, and in a place of expansion rather than contraction where you have options available to you. What I want for our Jewish people is first and foremost healing. And second, is the opportunity for additional healing and profound purpose, for us to have opportunities, for us to lean into opportunities that a number of us are already taking, and a number of us are on the edge of taking, but haven't fully taken yet, to show up powerfully in causes for justice, across lines of difference with confidence and with trust and/or with the logical perspective that statistically it is both possible, but also unlikely that I am going to be targeted by violence. And even if I am, this is the work I want it to be doing. I don't know if y'all can get on board with that yet. I'm not saying you have to. I'm saying what I, as a Black Jewish woman, have had to several years ago, and as often a number of Black leaders, and I'm sure Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, and a number of folks who have targeted identities, just that alone, and also are working for change in this world, have decided that this is a cause worth fighting for, and likely it isn't going to kill me. It could be dangerous at times, so I need to be safe, and I am going to show up because I am not going to let this terror impinge my capacity to support my people and other peoples I care about, in advancing us toward collective liberation. That is where I have chosen to live after a lot of dark nights and a lot of tears, and a lot of processing of terror. And I welcome you to join me if you are in that place definitely. And if you're like, "I am not there, but I feel that.(laughing) And I appreciate you giving me space to heal and take the time that I need it," I have your back. And if you're just in the,"I am not even there yet,(laughing) and that sounds terrifying." (laughing) I still love you and accept you and support you. But where I'm gonna be in the boardrooms and in the streets, is doing the work we need to do because, not in spite of, but because of these threats and in spite of them, in the sense that just justice in and of itself is worthy of fighting for, it is critical and not easy. And it's complicated, and it looks different for different people. For me to build out my skills and strengths so that I can meet this moment and keep my people safe. And not only that, but help us all as much as I humanly spiritually possibly can, help us collectively thrive. Tracie, you wanna add anything to that?- (laughing) I can't follow that.- (laughing) You can but alright. All right, so now that I said all that, I'd love to close where we started with you Tracie, which is to say, we're sending each of you so much love. And in the realm of Joyous Justice, all vibes are welcome. I particularly, after years of practice, like to intentionally attune myself to a certain frequency, except when I don't because I can't, and I need to get healing so I do. (laughing) And we're here, we're here. As I mentioned, in a few weeks we're gonna be inviting more people to join a group we're launching online, to offer more support and to enable all of you to connect with each other and continue to build safely and lovingly toward our dream.- [April] Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram @elliothammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes, and learn more about our team. Take care until next time, and stay humble and keep going.