Ep 74: Intellectual intimacy and interdependent intellectual independence

Many of us are learning about racial justice and trying to implement DEI in our lives and workplaces, but sometimes we become so stuck in our questions that it keeps us distanced and prevents us from going–and staying–in the deep end. In this conversation, April and Tracie challenge us to get intellectually intimate with the learning and to use our systems of accountability and partnership to stay in this close relationship while also taking ownership of ourselves.

Check out our discussion/reflection questions for this episode:  https://joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-74

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Send us a question, idea, insight, or thought:  https://joyousjustice.com/jews-talk-racial-justice-questions

Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director, and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/

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Read more of Tracie’s thoughts at her blog: https://www.bmoreincremental.com/

Learn more about Racial Justice Launch Pad and join the waitlist: https://joyous-justice.mykajabi.com/rjlp-waitlist-1

Join Awareness Accelerator: https://joyous-justice.mykajabi.com/awareness-enrollment

Listen to our MLK and Tu B’Shva Episodet: https://joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-71

Listen to our episode “Q&A or Q&Stay”: https://joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-69

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Transcript

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- [Tracie] In today's conversation, we describe five I's, intellectual intimacy through interdependent intellectual independence. Maybe it's only four I's since intellectual's there twice. I don't know, you'll like it.(tranquil ambient music)- [April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage- [Tracie] Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.- Hi everyone, I hope you're doing well. And hi Tracie, so good to be with you.- Hey April, always.- There's a range. Tracie and I have been digging into our material and pulling out gems from it to share with allies and friends, old and new. And we've also been working with different folks in the Jewish community lately on a couple of different matters, specifically guiding, working with a group of professionals who are working through our material in our course Awareness Accelerator. And I've noticed between a number of these things, and even actually, I'm noticing a theme coming up lately, I often have different themes show up around my thought leadership during a few weeks at a time where I'm like, oh, there's a similar thread here. It seems like the universe is wanting me to clarify this piece. And this started to my knowledge or to my recollection when Tracie, you and I spoke about, I think I first started talking about this idea of intellectual intimacy for our Tu B'shvat and MLK day episode. And it's just a slightly different framing than one that I've had before that I want to share with folks because I think it comes up often. And it also ties into the episode that Tracie and I did about Q&A versus Q&Stay of people asking loads and loads of questions. And I think it's great and interesting and juicy that in general, in our tradition and in my life, and in our culture, speaking broadly, the Judaism that I was raised with, because maybe this is universal, is that questions are really valued and respected, right? And it is also true that in my getting real close to 20 years now of doing racial justice work in the Jewish community and beyond, it's become clear to me in the past few years that there are dynamics around learned helplessness and chronic disempowerment. And I think there's a little bit of an either, or that's informally developed here around, I'm gonna hop around a couple different places and then land where we're going, between saviorism and superiority and internalized superiority and complete disempowerment. So I want us to dive in around intellectual intimacy and what I'd like to think of as interdependent intellectual independence.(chuckles)- That's a lotta I's.- I love alliteration. All right, Tracie, do you wanna say anything perhaps in your Tracie way?(chuckles)- I have this analogy that I'm really excited about and I hope it lands.- Okay, yay, I love your analogies.- And what I'm thinking about, like the sort of tension that that we've been pointing to around questions, we did it in the, in the Q&A or Q&Stay. And just in general, like questions, vis-a-vis intellectual intimacy, because I think that questions actually can be a tool to use to achieve intellectual intimacy with a new thought, a new body of work, a new body of thought new to you, but they also can be a way to keep that body of thought at arms length. And it occurred to me that the analogy that I'm thinking about is, I just read an analysis where a person was talking about how an accountability buddy can be really great, but also can be counterproductive because if you and your buddy are just like, oh man, I don't wanna do this, oh, I don't wanna do this either, let's not do it. And then you just(chuckles) kind of like feed each other's like excuses, then you don't make it to the gym, right.(chuckles) Or you might actually reinforce like.- Unhealthy.- Well, that is reinforcing.- Yeah.- But you might reinforce like actually bad behaviors, not just like, not engaging, but.- Let's eat donuts instead.- Better than bad behaviors.- Right.- 12 of them each.- Exactly, exactly. Let's skip the gym and go to the Dunkin' instead. And so for the fitness accountability buddy, this person that I was reading said like, the model would be like at the end of our workout together at the gym, we would each give the other one of our shoes. So that in order to actually show like the other person is literally depending on you to do their workout the next time, like you actually. So that's a, and I'm not exactly sure what the,(chuckles) like exactly what the analogy there is with questions, but I do think there's something.- Well, there's interconnectedness.- Ripe and resonant.- In your analogy.- There's something ripe and resonant in the idea that there's sort of that give and take, that, that question, the questioning as a tool to get to intellectual intimacy, it's not all one way, it's not all like you must, you whoever you are, must help me, it's like, here's what I've got. How does this fit with what you've got? Like, there's sort of a give and take in that. And that's the way in which, I mean, if you look at the way questions show up in the canonical literature in the Talmud, right? The rabbis say, this is what I think it means. And here's a question that I have about it. Like, it's never just like, why did you say that? There's always a little bit of an analysis first, right? So anyway, that's where I was(chuckles) when you were coming into your I's. And I think there's like an interdependence and independence.- Yeah. Yeah.- In that buddy metaphor.- Yeah, and so here's what I mean by each of these pieces, so the first is for intellectual intimacy, I've been thinking about this in the sense that a number of us have been pushed to be more physically proximate. A few of us I think are doing that, I think most still aren't. And so what I would say, I'll just cut, there's a lots of analysis I could give here, but I'm really feeling called and directed internally to just keep this short and pithy, right, and pack a powerful punch. So what I would say right now is that I think that intellectual intimacy is the frontier(chuckles) of, or an element of the frontier or the leading edge of potent transformative racial justice work. And what that looks like is what actually, and some of you take us up on it, so shout out to the folks who are listening who do it, and also cool if you don't, but every week when we share an episode, after we've recorded it, we produce reflection questions for our listeners if they want to look over the questions and think about and chew on the material. And so to me, intellectual intimacy can look like different things, but primarily the way I'm thinking of it is instead of you asking questions and still being detached, you ingesting the material and letting it percolate through your mind, and through specifically the truth and knowledge as you have it, of your living your life. So not just your theoretical thoughts about something which is internal, but it's still distanced, but in your life, in the relationships within which you navigate, in the professional context within which you live, in the societal dynamics you experience in day-to-day, how does what you're learning jive with what you know? And the approach that Tracie and I have in Awareness and in a range of the programs, we do not all of them, because this isn't the only step or the destination, but a key step to me in almost any learning, and I think most educators would agree and I think this is absolutely true in racial justice, and I think it's actually quite liberatory and contradicts intellectual segregation is for you to show up and read the material, show up fully with your full attention. Read or ingest, or listen to the material, and then ask, either respond to questions that the person asked you and write them down somewhere, type them, write them, I'm a big proponent of handwriting, but do whatever works for you. Paint it, dance it, whatever you need, but move through. And I really meant that,(chuckles) like, it's also kinda funny, but like, I really do mean that. And think about, how is this true for you? How is this true for your parents? If it feels true to you, how do you feel about sharing this with other people? Does it still feel like you still need to work through it within yourself? And if so, what's there to work through? There are infinite questions, right? And so, you can see examples of some questions that we ask for our podcast. If you go back in my Instagram feed around the 10 Jewish values for advancing racial justice framework that I developed a couple years back around the holidays into the fall, I would ask different questions. And so when you have an opportunity and a leader of color, a racial justice educator, especially if they're a person of color asks you to consider questions, accept that sacred and transformative invitation. I'm still getting longer here, but what I'm saying is that, and because I'm wanting to explain it more and to help people understand that's my, as I'm learning, actually not only my personality, but actually part of my lineage, specifically my native American lineage, I'm learning, there's a real desire to reach across difference and help people to understand. But intellectual intimacy is a deep and liberatory contradiction to internalized white supremacy culture. So a number of us are reading books. And so I think this is where the value of book groups can come in handy. And specifically, I think it's best, and I've been practicing this for years and I've seen it work well and get results, not always immediately, but over time, I've watched my students over decades go through different learning experiences and be challenged and not fully clear what's happening. And 10, not even that long, two years, 10 years, like the full trajectory in the months and years that follow, noticing them being able to take more personal ownership over their role in racial justice. And that's the next piece of this. So I just wanted us to provide an intro to here and then I'll let Tracie share any thoughts, then we'll draw this to a close, is, ooh, I feel it in my body. Ooh, okay. I believe that we collectively, individually and collectively right now have immense untapped power and strength. And I want us to start to cultivate that power and I believe, and I want you to hear us really clearly and hear me really clearly specifically, that I'm not saying questions are bad, but the point at which there are endless questions and you are not able to find a rhythm where you are moving forward in this work and starting to apply what you're learning from respected leaders and teachers of color, and you're just in a sea of questions, that's what I want to reverse and turn around and get it to a place of what's the, can you get clear on certain pieces of certain skills or practices or reframes that you are starting to integrate into your daily life, and that it's starting to become who you are. Because to me, in some ways, this is partially about who we are and how we operate because racism is a what. And I believe that we are inherently good, but we get these things conflated. And so the more we as individuals can start to own that inherent goodness and apply it in the direction of racial justice incrementally, and increasingly over time, I think that can lead to massive results. And I'm seeing a lot of dependence that I think because of racist patterning, and there are other theories here too, there's a superiority and inferiority complex. And then when that leaves, part of the collective memory that's left in that absence is black people and people of color in general, not just black people, is people of color in general, and also there's a specific legacy around black people and enslavement, but a legacy of people of color doing it for white people. And I see that.- Hmm.- Unconsciously and I've been a part of it playing out for years, and it's very pervasive in our community. And I want... and to me the middle ground between savior complex and total disempowerment, I'm gonna let people of color carry the load and do all the work is a stretch zone middle ground of this is going to take all of us taking on parts of this work that are ours to own based upon our position, access, power and privilege. And that's customized for any number of different variables in our lives and the sociological dynamics that we're navigating, and that we can each show up in not a power over, but in a power with dynamic. And now I'm specifically speaking to white folks, and find a stance where you are taking ownership over your learning, but without the toxic individualism, which is where the interdependent piece comes in. So leveraging the Jewish tradition of Hevruta, checking in with other folks around you, but both taking ownership around your learning journey and also checking in with other folks. And as you do that, developing your own interconnected aligned analysis, that is both aligned with the thought leadership and direction of leaders of color, and also aligned with people in your ecosystem with whom you resonate, but at a certain point, part of that is uniquely your own. So there's overlapping pieces, and part of that is just yours. That makes sense and jives with your lived experience and other parts of your knowing. And this isn't an overnight thing, it's a journey because in some ways, some things will be easy to integrate, and other times you might need to relook at different parts of your story with this new racially informed analysis and start to craft a new story. And I think where people get stuck and dropping a lot of knowledge here is that they go to a place of shame and judgment, and instead if you replace that with strength and compassion, with gevurah and chesed, loving kindness. So if you're like, ooh, actually my dad wasn't a victim there, actually he was being held accountable for his racism when he got fired. And that doesn't mean your dad is bad, your dad was likely doing the best that he could, I'm just making up a story right now, but was doing the best that he could with the knowledge and understanding he had, but you might have to retell some of those stories and notice, oh, my dad actually wasn't, well, he was a victim in a way, but he was a victim of having been fed lies his entire life, and then took a course of action that led to hurting a person of color, and he had to pay consequences for that. So that's the kind of work I want us to do is to filter these stories through our living and the stories of our lives, but do it with not from a carceral cancel culture, but from a place of compassion and dignity and knowing that most of the time we in our own lives and all of those around us are doing the best we can with the knowledge and understanding we have, and at times do crappy things, but if we look back and see what happened to that person, often what they're doing made sense in some sphere and they likely needed healing to not carry those survival strategies into a new space. But okay, I think that's it for me for right now. Tracie, do you wanna add anything in before we start to draw to a close?- I just, that was all very, it was a little cerebral. I wanna.- Yes.- Put maybe if I can another very specific component. I think sometimes, this is again like pulling on the questions and the learned helplessness.- Mm-hmm.- Sometimes we sort of pose a question and then we think we can't move forward until we get that answer. And that's a specific moment that I wanna kind of shine a light on and say, actually, if we allow that stuckness, like that's a choice and we can actually choose to sort of put that question on a shelf or in maybe a better metaphor because I want us to be moving forward, like we're on a bike and you can't balance if you're not moving. And so put that question into the saddlebag of the bike,(chuckles) you know, or whatever the appropriate, like rest it on the handlebars so that we can continue moving forward and like working on that balance. And eventually it will, either the answer will come, the question will dissipate. You will have a better way of answering, but to stand in stuckness because I have this question and I don't have an answer for it is actually an excuse to stop moving. And that can be in kind of heady intellectual ways, questions, it can also be in much more intimate sort of family dynamics, like what April was just describing. Like the question could be like, how could you say whatever.- Mm-hmm.- In the kind of made up story that you were telling.- Right.- But either way, I think allowing it to make us stay stuck is a choice.- And also, I wanna further clarify here,'cause I just realized, because we're thinking about it in a particular sort of way. And I think we're also both thinking about it differently Tracie, but I want to clarify too, that in terms of becoming more, what did I say? Interdependently, intellectually independent and simultaneously independent and interdependent, refining the phrase here is that some of the places where you're asking all these chronic questions, I think the replacement to that is not action. What I would say is in the metaphor that it is action, but it's not the action that a number of people are thinking of or wanting. To me and Tracie's metaphor when a person is riding the bike, the movement they are doing is it can look like a few different things, but it's more like steadily incorporating racial justice, more racial justice into micro movements throughout one's day. It's not immediately jumping in or rushing to do a campaign.- Right.- That takes years of knowledge and deep relationship and lots of things. And so if you're having some stuckness within your organization, I think an effort in the direction that's more helpful is if you want to take some external action is to think about and ask questions around, are there other places within our organization where we can bring a racial equity lens? We have multiple questions that have come up, let's identify some books that we think may help us get to some answers or identify some speakers that can help us to have, who can share some frameworks with us to think through some of these pieces.- Well, thank you for that clarification.'Cause my bike, I definitely meant I was thinking of intellectual movement, not like rushing out to.- Save the day.- Different policy or program.- And racism in 24 hours.(chuckles)- Right, right. No, I was definitely, I was actually thinking of the intellectual stuckness that people get so that they then disengage with thinking about it altogether.- Ah.- That's the movement that I was thinking of, and allow themselves to stand still in terms of learning. I'm gonna come back, like I'm gonna come back to one of our tradition's metaphors that we, I've shared on the podcast before, which is the story where the student comes to the rabbi and says, like very proud and performative, hey Rabbi, I've read the Talmud three times, I've been through the Talmud three times. And the question and response was, that's very nice, but how many times has the Talmud been through you? And I think that.- Exactly. It's exactly.- It telegraphs.- What I'm talking about.- The kind of intellectual intimacy.- Yes, yes.- That you're talking about. So it's not just like, yeah, I follow Ibram Kendi on Twitter.(chuckles) Like that's great. That's great, I do too. But like how are you actually working to integrate Ibram Kendi's thought leadership into your thoughts and your actions.- And the stories of your life. So how has Ibram X. Kendi's following him on Twitter as Tracie says, or reading a couple of his books, how has that shifted your understanding of parts of your own story or the nature of different relationships? And it doesn't have to be massive or a specific value into action, but how are you understanding your world differently? And in what ways have you on autopilot or potentially more likely intentionally made that matter and be of consequence in meaningful ways and taking the time and riding this metaphorical bike to sit and chew on those questions. And rather than turning to somebody for help, this is about, that piece is for you in part to figure out and to think about. And then it may make sense to gut check, but I would love to see questions start to be around, here's this question that I had, and here's the process I went through or the things that I've been thinking about it. And initially I thought this, and then I took some more time and I looked up some things and my thinking is here. And the place where I'm landing is I think this makes sense, but April, knowledgeable person in this, Tracie, I wanted to gut check, is my thinking here, because it feels very personal to me, which at times can be a very good sign because that means it's real and it's likely lasting because it's relevant in your life. And I was thinking that it might make sense to support different initiatives that bring safety into the organization. And I know it's important to support the leadership of people of color. So I thought I might be a conduit and reach out to a few folks and see if there's somebody in my orbit or somebody I can reach out to who is looking to do this and I could leverage my access, but I wanted to make sure I'm not crossing any lines here, right? Like that's a very different place than, I don't know how to make black, how do you make black people feel safe in the workplace?- That's a perfect example.(chuckles) That's a perfect example. And I think that clearly displays like what I was talking about, about the give and take in terms of the accountability buddy, and not just like give it to me, but here's what I got, how does this look? How can we iterate? Refine? Yeah.- Yeah. And stay humble and keep going.- Nice.(laughing) Amen sister.- All right, thanks, you all for tuning in. And if you don't already know, we are now, we've been in beta mode, we'll continue to be in beta mode, but we're being a little bit more public about it. We've launched a Facebook group, woo-hoo, called "Joyously Pursuing Racial Justice". It's a private group, in order to get in, we ask you to answer a few questions because we are not just inviting anyone who's like, meh, I feel like joining another group, but we want people who care about these things and who are thinking about them. So we ask some questions to help confirm that, not around any specific thing, don't worry. Please don't be performative, but.- These are questions you can answer.- Yeah, they're just.- it's not a quiz.- No.(laughing) But we just wanna make sure that if someone's like, nah, actually like lollipops and my obsession with lollipops is pretty much my whole life, I was just curious. This is not the group for them. It's for people who care about this in some way. We not only share content from this podcast and break it down and make it more digestible and consumable and integratable in your life, but we are also sharing a lot of content around joy and racial justice more broadly and anchoring it in some of the thought leadership we've already developed to create essentially, quite honestly, and this is also in a video I made in the portal itself, but I feel really proud of the fact that of a few of the different ideas Tracie and I have in terms of the future of our business, we took one that we planned on being, offering that people would have to pay for and are essentially providing it to our people for free. So, and also giving folks other opportunities to join in and other learning opportunities.- And part of the value is all of you, so the people.- 100%.- It's a community where you can interact with April and myself and also with one another and other people who like care and think about this a lot. And especially in pandemic, I mean, always, always we need to counter the isolation that comes with this work, but especially in pandemic. I'm really finding it as a balm if you will.- Yeah. Yeah, and it's also a place and space, which is what we intended it to be among a number of different things where everyone has an opportunity on a daily basis to practice in bite sized portions, intellectual intimacy with racial justice, with joyous justice and racial justice content and with each other.- Mm-hmm. Yes. Interdependent intellectual independence.- Yes, exactly. Yay, for the five I's. In addition to the other I's we have.- All right, yeah.- All right, take care.(chuckles)(tranquil ambient music)- [April] Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram@ElliotHammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care, until next time and stay humble and keep going.