David Hieatt

“Business has some serious thinking to do. We're in danger of losing our way. In amongst a crisis and chaos is a really good time to just go ‘are we doing this right?’”

In the latest episode of Endless Vital Activity, David Johnston speaks with David Hieatt, the co-founder of Hiut Denim Co and The DO Lectures; the self-funded talk series that aims to create a safe space to ask better questions about the world we live in.

Johnston and Hieatt discuss the pitfalls of ‘selling out’, the need for purpose-led businesses and the power of anonymity when asking what needs to change in the world.

Transcript

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DJ [00:00:12] Welcome back to Endless Vital Activity, conversations to inspire radical action. I'm David Johnston, founder of Accept & Proceed, and today I'm chatting to the incredible David Hieatt. David is an entrepreneur in the truest sense of the word, who is committed to creating sustainable businesses that sense from community and purpose. He founded Howie's, Hieatt Denim and the Do lectures three world class businesses which use simple yet radical ideas to reimagine what a business can be. David sold Howies in 2006, and it was with learnings from that experience that he went on to build the sustainable jeans brand Hieatt Denim, in a small town called Cardigan in Wales. This town, with a population of just four thousand, was home to Britain's biggest jeans factory with 400 employees and over 40 years experience within their walls. The factory was facing closure, and David took on the quest to get 400 experts or the grand masters, as he calls them, their jobs back. Seeking to have the biggest impact on its community whilst also seeking to have the lowest impact on our planet, Hieatt denim was born and it continues to thrive. During our conversation, we focus in on this third and lesser known business. The Do lectures, a unique creative conference, if you can call it that, but in truth, it defies categorisation. It truly is a life changing event for all who attend. So much so that Accept & Proceed has committed to send a member of our team every year that it runs, and every year we do, we come back inspired and with new ways of thinking. David and I also discuss how ownership needs to evolve, how to create meaningful businesses, and how being community centric can in itself be a radical force for change. 

DJ [00:01:53] You called bullshit's on the advertising industry and refocused your life in order to do good through your work. Can you take us back to that moment and how you felt? 

DH [00:02:02] Well, I mean, you know, like I kind of loved my time in advertising and to work with really smart people is, you know, when you're 21, you've been through our college. Yeah. And to to be in an environment where they don't really care where you're from, what school you went to, if you got thrown out of college. They only really cared if you had ideas. So I was I felt like that was a really brilliant environment to be in for a bunch of time. I think, you know, towards the end of my time in advertising, I kind of felt like I was pushing product I didn't really believe in. And I felt I was part of the problem and I didn't want to be part of a problem anymore. 

DJ [00:02:53] So onto the Do lectures, a second world class business, and I know it's hard to describe exactly what it is, even for you. There's a magic to it, but it could be described as underground creative experience that focuses on education, building community and enabling the audience to reconnect with themselves. And there really is so much I love about it. Having attended, as you know, last year in 2019. But I really love that you've got no desire to get big and you're not churning out loads of press, you don't have a sponsor. It's a pure and sustainable business and it pays its way. And for many entrepreneurs, this is the antithesis of how their programmed. Did you have to reprogramme yourself to think beyond those limitations? 

DH [00:03:37] Well, I suppose we had a rather large kick in the shins in as much as we'd half built Howies and we sold it and we had a bunch of money. But if the truth be known is we felt a lack of fulfilment. And so...that's what happens sometimes is that, you know, that's why a lot of companies or they get bought by other companies and they don't do very well. They kind of lose their way in their purpose. And they're definitely for me, I lost my way a little bit. And so when we're looking at the Do is, it gives free talks away to the to the world. So ninety nine percent of what it does, it literally gives away for free and that costs an enormous amount of money to make all those talks. So it's a really unusual business and yet, you know, it's possible to do it without sponsorship, without advertising, because we sort of made, you know, a really big distinction, and that is if we help our community to take that next step and it can be a step in their career or step in their business, if we are of value to them and we help them and they pay us for that knowledge, then we can be a brilliant business. And it is turning into a brilliant business. And still we do not have to scale. So it's kind of like it's a really awkward experiment and  the interesting thing is like a one point two billion pound events company came to us and said, oh, we really love to Do lectures. I'm going to ask do I? And they said we'd love to buy it. I've gone, do you know, I've done that once. I'm not making the same mistake twice. But I thank you and thank you for your attention and I thank you for your interest but, you know, we're here to serve our community and and we do workshops and we do online workshops and we have an incredible event. And and there is no big sponsor and there's no advertising on the site. And it's not perfect but it's good. And I'm really proud of it. 

DJ [00:06:10] It's really good, David. I think for me, it was a transformative experience. You know, one particular talk which took me to my death moments, you know, I've never experienced anything like before. It was Keith Yamashita. That's why partners last year and he told us how pre stroke, he was obsessed, but has now learnt how to cut through and to connect generally with himself and his family and life in general, I suppose, in a more meaningful way. And it was a really powerful experience so I won't go too far into where Keith took us during that one of the opening sessions, talks, group therapy, whatever you call it. But in essence, you know, through the process, he urged us all to collaborate, to cut the crap and to tackle important issues head on. Yeah, well, I really took from it is that you only get one life. Time is short. Do something good now. You must have had so many powerful experiences like that over the years. But it was one of the most powerful experiences of my life that individual talk, but you must have at many. Does one stand out in your memory? 

DH [00:07:13] Well, the Do's extraordinary because not many people know about it, hasn't had a big bunch of publicity. And yet on March the 1st, all the tickets sell out in an hour with a waiting list. And that's because the hundred people who came the previous year go and tell their friends, you've got to go. So it's it's hard to describe it. It's much harder to miss it. Like chocolate, really. Like, how would you describe chocolate? That's actually quite hard to describe. But in the first couple of years, it wasn't always easy to sell the tickets. And I kept saying, like, unless it's absolutely on another level amazing we should stop it. And each year that thing just got more amplified in terms of it's remarkableness, and this is continue to do that. And there's an awful lot of it I don't particularly understand, but I do think it takes you away from your day to day. It puts you in a place which is far from perfect and far from anywhere. And you are with a bunch of people and there's no name tags. There's no like I don't literally care what you do, you don't care what I do. And so there's like a there's just a moment of pauseness, if that's actually a word. And people are inspired and they open up. They already have that urge to open up, but they don't know how to add and who to. And so like you, I've seen a lot of people come and suddenly go, oh, my God, I'm literally...the hardest part of all the Do is going back to where you came from. Because you also know it's the place you need to leave. And so whether it's that job that doesn't fulfil you and to give you a funny story. Now, I'll give you a more serious story after that is we had a deal with Virgin Atlantic and they would in return for us upgrading our speakers to some nice seats on the plane, they would send down their three brightest know to experience the Do. And after three years, I think all nine of them had resigned and they said, look, we don't know actually what you're doing to our people, but we can't do this anymore. And that was it, it wasn't really a sponsorship it was more a partnership, but it was a funny way to end. But the moment I remember is Maggie Doyne did her talk and not one person in the crowd after her talk could look at another human being, and all they could do is look at the floor. And I know pretty much everyone was crying. It was an extraordinary talk. And not talk has gone on to be watched by, like over 100 million people. And that's in a, you know, like the far western edge of west Wales. And it's not Ted and it's not the cool thing and nobody writes about it. And I don't mind. I actually don't care because the only people I care about is our community. And you suddenly go, oh, and thus the extraordinariness of a community where you're trying to do as much as you can to help your people take that next challenge and step forward. 

DJ [00:11:13] Powerful stuff. Yeah, I mean, I felt compelled at that moment to walk out of the chicken shed and call my wife and just tell her that I loved her. Which kind of freaked her out. I'll be honest, She was like, what are you doing? I thought you were at a creative, like, conference thing. And I was like, It's not that, Laura.  It's though it's not that I don't know quite what it is, but it's. 

DH [00:11:33] When people say, oh, what is it? And you go, I have no idea. It's our job is to create the space for the magic to happen. But we can't actually create the magic. It's we just get out of people's way. And it's an extraordinary event in in a beautiful part of the world. And we're all trying to help each other. We're literally going we want to help you. And it's extraordinary to be amongst people. It's just like we just want to help each other. And we're not perfect people, but we're trying to help each other. And I think actually the human being is hard wired to do that, and I know when you read the newspapers, you just go, oh my God, that's really hard to believe. And it is. But most people are hardwired to help each other. 

DJ [00:12:24] Absolutely, I'd love to. Well, I'd like to talk about community a little bit. You run two companies with very different purposes, but in many ways both sense from community. And I feel like community is a vital element of human happiness, as you've just said, and society and truly has the ability to change the world, which is what we need to be thinking more about now than ever. I mean, can you talk a little bit about what community means to you and its significance as a founding principle? 

DH [00:12:54] Well, I mean, I think. You know, every business has a community. Virtually every business has quite a few communities and maybe they don't think about it in that way and one community is the people who walk in each day and do the work, another community is your customers, another community is your town, another community is your planet. I mean, so there's so many communities. And and yet when most people run a business, the only thing that they look at is a spreadsheet. And I think we can have to try and run business in a much more human way than we have been. If you look back through history, you know, we stopped businesses to serve our community. And now you start businesses in order to supplement three years time. And the only metric that we really care about is the fact that they can scale and but some things can't scale like for us at the Do. The thing that you can't scale is in making like a really intimate environment that doesn't scale very well. And so we've fallen in love with big, and we've fallen in love with lots of metrics that we think are this can this can scale this scale as well. Why don't you scale trying to be more human? And that's the challenge for me, is understanding that you have several communities within each business and and and most entrepreneurs, most founders are really only taking care of one community, and that could be their shareholders, which is another community. 

DJ [00:14:46] So so when you think about this ecosystem of communities, I mean, how do you introduce that into your thinking when you're creating products or experiences? What have you learnt about building and I guess, considering that ecosystem of authentic communities? 

DH [00:15:04] Well, I mean, in essence, it really starts with you building a team. And and so without you building the team around a set of principles, you can't really build the business. But in a way, what really builds the team is the culture that you build. And that's always the hardest and trickiest thing to be talking about, because people can't see the culture and the and the culture isn't defined by the mission statement you put up on the wall. That's not culture. It's the things that you do when actually no one is watching. And and it's the things that you do good for your team that no one will ever find out about. And certainly it's those things that are almost unwritten that you practise every day. And in essence, like you, you are what you do every day. And so, you know, it's not the brand document that you've written and which is so also perfect. It's your actions every day and those actions, when you add them up, is you build the culture and then the culture then allows the team to go and do its best work. And then the team does its best work and that grows the business and then that helps us do more good in the world. So it's an extraordinary, complex and yet simple thing. And, you know, I'm learning every day. I'm far from like anywhere near to the degree I would love to be. But but there's also I enjoy the learning and...but it is a really odd mix of everything. And it only takes one thing if you ever, anybody out there actually has made some bread or maybe made a sourdough loaf and you forget the salt or you forget...not enough water., or you didn't pre-heat the oven. All of those things matter. And you need all of those things to be there in order to go and build this exceptional company. And so and that's what I'm trying to practise. And I don't really mind people either not writing about us or writing about us. But I would really mind about is whether the culture is really on point. And because the thing with the culture is you can't see it, but you can feel when it's no right. And it's a really, you know, ethical thing. And and it doesn't take very much for the culture to go away. And so that's why I'm sort of really trying to like, shape. And if you look at sports coaches and how they manage millionaires, because that's what they have to do. And you can't do that through motivation about bonuses, you have to go and tell them about the culture and you have to go and tell them about the purpose. And so they have a really hard job. Right, so, and that's why they are the people who understand people win the most trophies. 

DJ [00:18:33] I love that. I think the way that you took us on a journey that from kind of building teams to creating the culture to then allowing them, that will allow them that environment in which to thrive and create the work of their lives, which can then bring a bring about positive change in the worlds. Feels like it was like a simple I know that the things that underpin all that are very complicated but a simple journey that I hadn't quite thought thoughts about in that way, because this is what we want, right? We want to talk about enabling change and and in fact, radical change as we look to the future, we're planting the seeds for hopefully a different world. A more enlightened world, more understanding, compassionate world driven from our hearts and the environments that you create. The coaches you create are the things that will bring about that positivity, is that right, David? 

DH [00:19:26] Yeah, I think it's some, you know, like business, you know, has some serious thinking to do. And we're in danger of losing our way and in amongst, you know, a crisis and and much chaos is a really good time to just go ahead. Are we doing this right? And if you think back to the Quakers and you know, all the chocolate companies, Cadbury's and Bonneville and whoever I like, they were there to serve their community. Okay, they're making chocolate but like, there was another purpose to the business. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs just building companies and there's no other purpose to them. And and I think we have to get back to the drawing board and just go, look, the reason we're doing this. Yes. We're going to make a good profit, but we're going to we're going to do good in this world, too. And the best businesses for me go and change things. And so, and they're fighting on behalf of things that we care about. And if you think about Patagonia, you know, they're working on behalf of the environment for all of us. So them bringing things to the fore and bearing witness to things that actually maybe we haven't noticed and perhaps we need to. Back in the day, Apple were fighting on behalf of simplicity, because every computer that you would buy, you know, you needed to phone a friend in order to try and work out how to open the box. And so those companies are fighting for things. And there's another reason that that company exists. And and yet we've got a lot of founders out there that can't get a bunch of B.S. money and they're from the very start of the company they're working out how they can sell it. And I think I don't think that makes the best companies in the world. And it definitely doesn't make a purpose driven company. And I think we have to go and question how we fund businesses in the future. I think ownership is going to change. I think I'm a fan of the block chain and the understanding of perhaps what its potential is and I think we will fund businesses very differently in the future. And we'll all have more ownership over the companies that we care about. I think that's going to be a good thing. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of change. That is going to happen. And I think the 2020 is maybe a catalyst for all sorts of reasons and. And it's some good will come out of this, I believe. I think there'll be a lot of founders out there. And they're going well I'm going to start a business. It's gonna do this and it's going to help these people, and I think that's a good thing. 

DJ [00:22:39] Absolutely. I think it's interesting your points on ownership of businesses. There was an event I went to last year put on by the B-corporation, and there was a professor of economics, I think, from Cambridge or Oxford. But he made a very interesting point about business ownership. And we had to change the ownership and businesses, in fact, had to be held responsible because their responsibility is to make the right decisions on behalf of their community. But that isn't a legal requirement of business ownership at all. In fact, you've got to make the right decisions predominantly on behalf of the stakeholders or the, you know, the kind of board. And that's a shift. It's shifted my mind about my business, actually, and kind of made me rethink about our strategy. And I think there is a lot of people, as you say at this moment, taking the opportunity to rethink. 

DH [00:23:28] Yeah, I think I mean, I don't know how this is all gonna play out, but I think without getting super technical, there's going to be an ability through cryptocurrency where you can have a token for something. And so if you had I know a Painting, maybe five thousand people could own a little bit of it and it doesn't...and it could be one penny or it could be one pound. It doesn't really matter. Whereas, you know. But the reason they want to bit of the painting is because they love the painting. They don't want it to be sold, they just love the painting. And there's an awful lot of businesses out there that the customers just go I just want to be part of the ride, I don't want you to sell, I'm not even doing it to make money, I just think your purpose is important in this world. And I think we've got to, like, have another relationship with shareholders. And I think the alternative ownership model, and  I don't know what that's going to be. But I think it is definitely we're not going to really change business if we carry on like funding it in the same way. 

DJ [00:24:46] I'd love to talk about Cardigan, David, leaving London to pursue your own creative endeavours from a small town in Wales was a pretty radical move at the time. And you clearly really loved the place and I can understand why, having spent those few days there. And can you tell us a little bit about the community there and what did you discover building companies there that maybe you wouldn't have if you stayed in London? 

DH [00:25:08] Well, I mean, I'm from a small town in Wales anyway and so as soon as I took the train to London to try and get a job in advertising, I mean, I, I sort of said to myself, i was going, right, How quickly can I go back to Wales? And it wasn't that I didn't enjoy London, I definitely did. And I had a great time, great friends. But when we were coming back to Wales, it was we didn't really want to go back to the same village and we'd been Holidaying in West Wales and so that was our destination. Anytime we could get out of the the city we would head west. And the thing that we liked about Cardigan, it was just hard work and it was honest and it wasn't flash. It was just normal. It wasn't trying to pretend to be anything other than what it was and you'd have to go and, you know, they wouldn't accept you unless you were trying to be part of a community and as it should be. And so and so you have to earn your stripes and a call like that. And it's a very Welsh thing. So you know, so we just put our head down and just get on with, like, building our companies and trying to help the community in small ways and sometimes helping them. I'm not even telling anyone. And I think that's actually something we should do more of. And and it's. It's a good place to build a business. There are good people here. We live in a beautiful spot, we're very far away from pretty much everywhere. But it's but the community is strong and, you know, there's a vibrancy to it. And and even through, you know, Covid 19 times, actually, the town has come closer together because they're all trying to help each other. There's a sense of community and everybody knows you and I and I grew up in that kind of town where everybody would know you. And I like being part of a you know, I like being a small fish in a small pond. 

DJ [00:27:26] There was something that occurred to me the other day when thinking about Cardigan and your kind of love of the place. And obviously, you know, you come from the the valleys, I believe. Is that right? A small town in the valleys, is there anything about those communities that has made them thrive that you can apply to your businesses or that people could apply to their businesses? 

DH [00:27:51] Well, I think one thing I've sort of looked at is they they just come in and do the work. And there is no pretence, there's no like airs and graces. It's everyone is equal and when I think about the team, everything that you want to know about team is, you know, if you look at a bike chain, you can look at a bike chain and that's all you need to know about a team because there is no link that is more important than the other link. And so we're all equal. And I think the town is very much like that. There are no stars, you know, if you do the work well done. And it's it's a definitely a hard working town and I like that ordinariness., normalness, like there's no airs and graces to it. And I like that about it. It's it's you know, it's very utility doing this. It's not a flash place at all and yeah. And they don't like braggers. They, they don't like big heads. There's definitely keep your feet on the ground. Tuck town. But I like it that way. 

DJ [00:29:18] And how do they feel about the hundred out of towners that turn up once a year to your farm?

DH [00:29:23] Well, I mean, it's an interesting one. They kind of...I think maybe this is part of the weakness of the Do and it's like...I would love for it to be more part of the town. But obviously we're up on a hill, people come in. Maybe they see a bit of the town, maybe they don't. So and then one day, I think they are very proud of it as much as when people....because they don't quite know it then all of a sudden, their friends will go 'Oh you've got the Do lectures in town' and they're going, oh. So they find out about it through friends of friends and they suddenly go, oh, my gosh. And, you know, like Maggie Doyne's don't talk has probably got more views than you like. You know, a lot of Welsh television has in a 10 year period. I mean, so it's it's definitely on their radar a bit now. And we're also making donations to bits and bobs in the town. And so just quietly trying to help. So but I was the thing I would love to do one day is to do a town event where, you know, we suddenly do bring five or ten thousand people to the town and and really help the economy. I mean, that feels like a big stretch right now because, you know, we kind of gather in small homes for people. But, you know, one day maybe. 

DJ [00:30:50] I'm curious to talk to you about your personal experience and approach to business. You talk a lot about time and commitment and how you don't build anything of value over a quarter and earlier, you know how the acorn isn't judged in the first year, It's a long term pursuit. How is this helped shape your work as a founder? 

DH [00:31:09] Well, I think especially know, if you're in your early 20s and you're starting businesses, you want to go and scale something and you're in a rush to grow it.  You know, I study brands and like pretty much all of the great ones, take a long time to build. And remember, before I started hired, I phoned up Avon Chenard, sort of co-founder of the Patagonia company and I was curious to ask him and, you know, how did you keep hold of Patagonia? Because I didn't keep hold of Howies, and I wanted to make sure that with Hieatt I did. And he said, well, it was 40 years hard work, and I had to remortgage as well, and I went ah yeah I thought as much. And I guess what he is trying to say to me is like, ou got to go in every day, do your best, go to bed early and and get up and try and do the same again. And I think everyone's trying to find the perfect hack. Everyone wants 10 tips to go and be a Millionaire by Friday. And the truth is, it takes time. It takes a team, It takes hard work. There will be ebbs and flows, but nobody wants to sell that dream because actually does like a slightly boring and building great businesses is slightly boring because you have to be consistent. And when you say the word consistent, is this boring? And and you go, yeah, you have to be boring. You have to be consistently excellent each time. And people don't want to hear that story. Like, you know, Fast Company is a magazine titl, it's not slow company. It's not like, oh, this thing will take 20 years company. Everybody wants to do it fast and. When I look around like the best business I look to and I look up to. They weren't fast and I think I was telling everybody the wrong story is you can go and build an amazing company in three years. No, you can't, not that I can see. And all the shortcuts. I mean, they there are things that you can do strategically better and it will save you time. But ultimately, it's a game of patience. And people don't want to know that, and I'm sort of curious about that. And I think, you know, like business schools are, you know, pumping out people who think that way and I think it's wrong. I think businesses need to be more human. I think businesses need to be able more about their community. And and some are. I mean, the problem with Patagonia, like I said, is there just aren't enough Patagonia's. And and the same I hope one day people will say, oh, there's not enough Hieatts or there's not enough Do lectures. I hope that because, you know, you have to be a beacon of hope where you can go and build an incredible business. And you look after your people and you really attend to your community. And and yet, you know, you haven't had to scale. You haven't had to sell out. You don't have to raise a bunch of money, there is another way and everybody wants a short cut. 

DJ [00:34:46] I'm really interested in the fact that you called up and actually managed to speak to Yvonne, and I remember when we were actually on the bus from Do lecture's to Hieatts, or maybe back to the Do lectures from the factory. You told me that you'd also sent a postcard to Paul Smith once just with the word help on it, and you spoke to him as well. I mean, did. How did you get through to your Yvonne?

[00:35:08] Yeah, I mean, I've been sending Yvonne the catalogues for a while and twice we were pretty close to maybe doing something together. And at the time and know it's probably not really been told that story that much, but like Howie's was doing really interesting things and Patagonia we're going, oh, my God, what they do next? And I mean, you know, we wrote a piece in one of the catalogues, The Journey of a Carrot from Poland to Cardigan. And we we did every left turn, every right turn, every round about, I mean it was a boring piece, I have to say. But from that, they went and did their Footprint Chronicles. We built a Web site, which was incredible, and we tracked all the journey of everything. And so we were definitely pushing Patagonia. So. And, you know, I think there was like a mutual respect. And so I think those people, it's their job to find out who's doing interesting things and maybe we read at some point come up on their radar. And Paul is an extraordinary ambassador for Britain and creativity, he really is. And we did some T-shirts together and last time I spoke to him at the time, I think Howies was getting sued by Levi's and he just phoned me up and he said, 'Are you?okay, just checking' and that's what Paul's like. He actually is a big hearted human being, I actually miss him, actually, I'd love to have breakfast with him. And I mean, you know, like sometimes you can... I think you have to have done something to get their attention so when you do write to them, they kind of go,Yeah, we should maybe have a cup of tea. 

DJ [00:37:17] So what have been some of the hurdles you've needed to work through things that have tripped you up that you've had to reconcile along the way? 

DH [00:37:25] Well, the reason, if I'm talking about Hieatt, the reason most brands don't have factories is actually that's quite hard and it's much easier to delegate and outsource. And so because there's a complexity, there's complexity to making. And then there's a complexity to...and most brands are sellers, not makers. And so the complexity of then making and selling is you got to get both things right now. And people that you say to me, oh, what's most important, the ability to make or the ability to sell. And I sort of throw it back at them and say, you know, which leg of yours is most important, the left leg or the right leg. And so if you can make and not sell and if you can sell and not make, like, neither are good. So so the hurdle for us with it was to try and even though that what we say is to try and do one thing, well, you have to do many, many, many things well in order to do one thing well. And so the challenge for us with Hieatt was the fact that we were suddenly not outsourcing anything. And it was all under our control. That's also the reason why we stand out and I would say to the team, if we do easy things, then we'll have a hard life. And if we learn how to do hard things, we'll have an easy life. And it's a it's a funny thing and it's a funny expression, but it's true. And so, I mean, it's, you know, the hardest thing is once you've run around the track, which I felt like we did a bit with Howies, is to then go do I want to run around the same track twice? And the initial response from myself was actually, no, I don't want to run the track again- I feel like I've done it. And then I had a phone call with someone and they said, yeah, Dave it's not actually about you. You know, you're working on behalf of the town and your job is to go and get all those jobs back. So you put your ego away and get out of your own way and actually go and do what you're good at. And so it's a combination of things... starting from nothing is hard, making is hard. And all those hard things actually, in the end separate you from everybody else, he wants to do easy things. Oh, I don't want to start a factory. OK, that's fine. We'll do the hard things. That's OK. I don't want to start a brand. Fine. We'll do that and we'll do it when we we don't really have a marketing budget. I mean, we spent all the marketing budget on the coffee machine. OK, let's go make this even harder then. 

DJ [00:40:38] And from the few times we've chatted, David, I can feel a great energy from you. And I'm very interested in where your life force comes from. What is it that drives you? 

DH [00:40:50] Well that's a big question. I've always loved...the great thing is when you're a kid, right? And your hobbies are really telling you things that you are super interested in. And so for me, my bedroom was and I'm not kidding. My bedroom apart from windows and apart from door handles, was covered in posters of some of my favourite brands. And that was Adidas, Puma, Levi's Wrangler and I just loved the thought that you could build a company and you can make a stand for something. And and that's always what I've been interested and fascinated by, is- can you and build something. And and I've always loved sport and I've always loved the team, and I've always been fascinated by how can you build a team to maybe achieve much more than perhaps they could like, you know, when you add up their individual talents and and I've sort of driven by that. And I'll tell you one story, which I found every time I tell it, I just go into there is such power in this story. And I mean, as a Welshman, it's hard to tell the story because it's about the English rugby team. And I didn't and I haven't been able to find out who was speaking because it was on the radio and I only caught a little moment and there was an English rugby player being interviewed by someone and he was off see a World Cup medal winner. And he was asked he said 'Was that your defining moment like winning the World Cup?'And he said, 'No, actually, it was the moment in the tunnel before we went on to the pitch and everybody in the team looked at each other and without saying any words, they said thank you to each other, because we all knew at that point how much work we had done in order to get to that point, to be able to walk out onto the pitch and and the rest was. Yes, you need luck and everything, but I just thought that was the moment where the team said thank you to each other. And this year, to create a team that is really only there to help the team. And so the individual egos are left to one side, that's an extraordinary thing to be able to build, extraordinary. And they and most entrepreneurs will, if they're lucky, build one or two amazing teams in their life. Maybe only one. And a lot of entrepreneurs will never build a team at all. 

DJ [00:43:50] You seem to trust your guts in a profound way. How how do you know what move to make next? 

DH [00:43:56] Well, I mean, it's some... I think it's informed by a lot of things, and I think you have to inform your gut. I think you have to, you read and you have to listen and you have to learn. And I think I think being an entrepreneur is probably the most incredible personal development programme on the planet. And because if you truly want to grow your business, you're going to have to grow you as a person. And so for me, I do listen to my gut. I try to inform my gut as much as I can and sometimes doing things in a intuitive way. Sometimes you have to be early, but you have to be right. And and so it's an incredible thing being like entrepreneur. But it's you know, there's there's always that thing of you don't see how much work entrepreneurs put into growing themselves. And the smart ones always do. 

DJ [00:45:13] How do you feel about the public facing role? You know, being a founder, you speak a lot of well, you speak a lot of conferences and sharing your journey. Is this something that you enjoy? 

DH [00:45:25] I didn't used to enjoy it, and I mean when I was 21 and I was coming to 7/8 years at Saatchi's. I mean, I went to about two meetings. I would do anything to get out of a meeting and I didn't. I was super shy, you know, like a big introvert. So it's not a natural thing. And then I sort of learnt, well, you know, even at Saatchi's where, you know, the biggest talkers didn't always have the most to say. And so I sort of learnt that slow confidence and also I thought, well, I can't do talks like, you know, those big hitters, but I can actually tell my story and believe in it. And so I learnt that I didn't have to be like anyone else. I just had to be the best version of myself. And that was okay. But, you know, there were times where if I had to do a talk, I wouldn't sleep for nights but I learnt that thing of if I practise enough. And the role of practise is in order to relax you. So when you are nervous, you still do exactly what you wanted to do. And so I'm not a natural born like person who craves the spotlight. Quite the opposite, you know, for the Do,  I don't introduce speakers or anything. I don't. It's not my bag, but also it's my job to go and tell people about it and. And unless so we do, because that's just bubbles along super nicely. But in a way, I have to do my best for the grandmasters. And therefore, it does motivate enough, because especially in the early days, they would say, hey, I'm gonna go and do a talk. They go, go and sell some jeans, Dave, and I'm going. Yeah, OK, I got it. So I think when you got a cause that's bigger than you, it makes it little bit easier. 

DJ [00:47:40] And when you think about the future, what do you think we need to see more of in business? 

DH [00:47:45] Well, I think when you see more humans, and I don't worry, the robots are coming. I think the robots already here. And so I feel like people are running businesses just on metrics and with no humanity. And I just going to like, how on earth did we get here? And an, I think, human brams, you know, the next 10, 20 years are going to have an absolute ball because actually more than anything else, we need to know there's a human being there. 

DJ [00:48:19] This has been a fascinating. David, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for. Thank you for. Do thank you for the Hieatt. Thank you for continually giving so much. It's really appreciated. 

DH [00:48:32] My pleasure. And I hope that that was of use to you or your people and. Yeah. And if, you know, if you're down in Cardigan again, we'll put the kettle on, sir. 

DJ [00:48:43] Thank you for listening to our conversation today. I hope you found David as inspiring as I do. Self-described resistent boss, you can tell that culture, community and purpose strives everything that he does. His thoughts on slow progress are refreshing in a world that seems committed to speed up endlessly and his ideas on the need to grow yourself in order to grow your business resonate with me on a very deep level.Endless Aital activity is brought to you by Accept & Proceed. Remember, creativity can reimagine our worlds.