Seetal Solanki

“A crisis such as the one that we're in right now has given brands a bit of a wakeup call to make products that are about survival and not necessarily consumption in the same way.”

In this episode, David Johnston meets with Seetal Solanki, founder of materials research design studio Ma-tt-er and author of ‘Why Materials Matter’.

Seetal discusses the importance of broadening the definition of ‘materials’, brands using the pandemic to pivot and how you can challenge yourself to change your perspective within a capitalist society.

Transcript

EVA_Seetal Solanki

David: Welcome back to Endless Vital Activity, conversations to inspire radical action. I'm David Johnston, founder of Accept & Proceed. Today, I'm chatting to the wonderful Seetal Solanki. Seetal is the Founder and Director of Matter, a materials research Design Studio based here in London. Her work explores alternative methods of employing and implementing materials more responsibly across industry and education, thus creating a positive socio-economic impact, which reveals the truth about how we live today and might live tomorrow. She is the author of 'Why Materials Matter' and has collaborated with the likes of Nike, Dazed, The Design Museum, and many more. It was great to explore Seetal's incredible career and the truly remarkable work and discoveries that she's been uncovering.

David I think it would be really great to talk about the expansive nature of materials, because I think people often think in terms of the obvious, you know, wood, metal, plastic, glass, but it encompasses so much more, right? 

Seetal [00:00:13] Yes. For me, everything is a material. I've written a book called ‘Why Materials Matter,’ and I really want to expand not only the vocabulary, but also the wide range of materials that we have available to us. People are working from something like a micro bacterium to something that is quite abstract to digital materials, or water as a material. So, there are multiple scales in which materials operate on and are coming from the Nano even to the pretty macro view.  Bacteria is a material and is something that is really, really fascinating because it somehow seems invisible. But a lot of practitioners now are working with bacteria in order for it to be made more visible and perhaps even tangible to some degree. So, there's a practice, there's an agency in London called Favor Features, and it's run by a friend of mine called Naci. She has developed a textile dye that is made from bacteria that is originated from soil. And that bacteria are synthesized in the laboratory and it naturally creates a color which has been applied on to a textile. So, this is trying to address the issues around the textile industry in terms of its dyeing methods and at such scales as well. Because it is synthesized in the laboratory, it doesn't need the land or the water usage that is required currently with textile dyes. So, it's trying to eliminate all that sort of Damage that's created within the textile dyeing industry. And reducing that sort of impact that it has So that I find incredibly fascinating. It just has a huge amount of potential, it's very complex, obviously, but the expanse is endless. We have no idea that materials are so intelligent, way beyond our capacity, and that is something that I will always be humbled by. I think because I will never know everything about materials. It will always know more than me. And that sort of Relationship I have with it- I'm a student and I think I will always be a student of materials. 

David But you've had an amazing career Seetal as a designer, working across fashion, sportswear, automotive lighting and architecture. And what unites all these experiences is materials, of course. So, I'd love to start by finding out what excites you about the radical possibilities of materials. 

Seetal That it's endless. There are so many possibilities with materials. And for me, it's endless what their capabilities are. But we need to really care and respect them more than we have done ever. And that's something that I would say I noticed throughout my career is the lack of respect somehow towards materials and the practice of it actually, because it would never be introduced at the very beginning it would be just tacked on at the end. And therefore, the sort of decision making around mature choices might not be appropriate actually for what their intended purpose was. So even though materials link everything together, it's almost like a conduit, like materials are a conduit to all industry, to other people, to the planet and all sorts of things. So even the individual- going back to my friend, like the other three were individual Camino and Planetree. The radicalness of materials is the fact that they have endless possibilities and they are way more intelligent than we are. And so, we need to really listen to them and get to know them, have a relationship with them. And that is exactly what I do within my work, it's building relationships with materials and somehow humanising them. And what I mean by humanising is not anthropormorphasisimg them, it's more to see them as human somehow.  I've developed lots of methods in order for us to humanise materials. One thing I've developed is a material horoscope, so each of the star signs in the horoscope has a material assigned to it, and those materials share the same qualities as the star sign does. It's kind of bridging those relationships between humans and materials and materials can be anything. It can be yeast, It can also be seaweed, paper and all sorts of things, and when you start to see yourself through a material lens, you have a different sense of appreciation or a different perspective for you see yourself through a different lens. I think that's really powerful in terms of how we then start to question ourselves basically, because ultimately, we need to understand ourselves first before we can even operate in this world. I feel like this time that we're in now during lock down is the perfect opportunity to do that and be a bit more self-reflective. I think these sorts of tools that I'm building within my practise is very much to do with that- readdressing our relationship with the planet through materials, and by discovering what we're made of. And that, for me, can seem quite radical but actually, this is old.  This has existed for such a long time, there's so many cultures and philosophies that have been talking about this with generations you know it's nothing that new. It's just the way that I'm relating to it, and my practice is relating to and materials, just happened to be the vehicle for that. 

David Absolutely. I think when we last spoke, we touched on panpsychism, I don't know, huge amounts about it, but I like that what I do understand of it, which is basically a recognition that everything has a consciousness of sorts. So materials included in fact a stone or a rock has a consciousness. It's just maybe not the same type of consciousness as we have or one that we can fully understand or appreciate. But when you do start to think that way, I think it does the same job that you described of us as kind of humanising materials or making them more human. I really love that. 

Seetal It's such a great word, panpsychism.  In a lot of Eastern cultures, it's called Animism.  That's very present in Hinduism, which is a religion I was brought up on. For me, it's not necessarily religion. It's more of a way of life really. This sort of appreciation for other beings and their consciousness and being very present in that conversation or dialogue, I think relates to panpshychism or animism, even object-oriented oncology. Those three sorts of Methods or framework of philosophies coexist somehow, they just have different languages. I think this idea of consciousness existing within all other beings is something that I believe in. I mean, like you mentioning a rock. I think there is a consciousness to a rock, I mean, if you think about volcanic rock, it's metamorphic so it's living. You know, it moves, and they speak a different language to us and that's the difference. So, then they're not verbal or written in the way that they communicate. It's the movement in which they operate, in or the way that they grow with other things around them. There's a conversation happening that's a material one, not a human one. 

David Absolutely. 

Seetal That is something that we need to somehow shift, basically, because language is a key component to all of this. So we can't just take for granted that other things, other beings will communicate the same way as us. You know, we speak through our voices, we write, we listen, we move. And there's so many sensors that are involved in the way that we communicate and that there's different forms of languages that we use; even the way that we smell things- that's a language. So we can't just take for granted that a written or a vocal language has more validity over the other forms of languages. So that's something that I'm also developing within my practise is allowing for those languages to coexist and for them to be part of the way that we perhaps listen, see, observe and relate to other beings, because even symbology in, say, ancient languages are an incredible way to communicate, and that's something that indigenous communities would communicate with one another. They would perhaps provide, for example, describing a plant through the plant's benefits- it might be healing, and that symbol would represent that. It's sort of being more aware of the fact that we can speak other languages rather than just a polemical one. Those two languages written and the verbal one has been sort of validated in Western society because of the education system that's in place that has been implanted across the world really. For it to be the most dominant one, which means that it's universal but actually, it shouldn't be that way.  We should be inclusive of other forms of communication and I think a less colonial one would be preferable and a less capitalistic one also. There are other systems that we can operate in as well and and within other communities it's about the sense of engagement and relationality and having access, because a lot of the time the whole earth catalogue, for example, talks about access to tools and in a way, I'm kind of doing that with materials and giving, providing access to materials. That has to begin with language and reframing it. And that I'm actually writing a book about that. So that's the next the next book, so it's going to be interesting. 

David  I'd love to talk about, you know, kind of language and education and how it relates to your practise. So, can we start with just talking about Matter which you founded in 2015 and you've talked about this being born out of frustration. Can you tell us more about this and your vision for the company? 

Seetal  Yes, of course. It's definitely a frustration because the 12, 13 years I had as part of my career before I launched Matter into the space, I worked in all these different industries, which you mentioned earlier and they sort of gave me an insight into how people actually  work with materials-how they interact with them and how they could then apply them. Even the methods of production and different scales in which they operate, how they work in the commercial world as well as an artistic one. It was an incredible insight and it allowed me to really see the bridges between all of them. There was a real lack of respect towards Materials because, like I said earlier, I never really got introduced at the very beginning of any sort of process. Materials were always the conduit between all of them, but they would just be tacked on at the end. I would also say that this sort of lack of respect towards materials is something that has really trained what I do as a practice because I want materials to be respected. I want the people that work with materials to be respected, and I want them to be more accessible, more relatable and cared for- ultimately because we all work with materials. Previously it existed in the expert field, whereas now it's the sciences and also academia and there's been incredible work and there still continues to be incredible work happening in those spaces. However, it doesn't allow for others to understand them enough or be made aware of them. And that's something that I'm doing. It's like building these bridges between, say, the sign phase academia, because I'm also an academic. I teach at the RPA on a programme called Tech S. So, building these bridges between these sorts of knowledge systems or different qualities allows me to sort of connect everything together and see. It gives people the space and the possibility to understand them more. Because everybody likes material and ultimately that will be whether it's you sitting in front of your computer typing on a keyboard, using your phone, whether it's the clothes that you're wearing or the chair that you're sitting on; there is an everyday interaction with materials.  But some have matter that is put into this expert field and it feels inaccessible or unattainable. It feels far removed from the everyday, and the average person by creating a release on practise. Like I have with Matter, that's ultimately my goal- to get people to engage with materials and relate to them. We do that through a studio practise where It's the practise and an agency and an initiative for. Basically, the practise translates the material, immaterial and virtual world into objects, places and thoughts, an agency is more like a consultancy. And so, we work with brands and organisations and institutions and even individuals. We help to reorient their mindsets, behaviours and mechanisms to something that's more responsible. And, yeah, the sort of school aspect, which is more the initiative in making that more public facing and we can do that through a series of workshops to talk to. That's kind of a humanising part somehow and different learning instruments that we're building, basically. 

David I mean, it’s a very special and quite unique organisation. 

Seetal  There's just been a huge misunderstanding with materials as well, and even as my role as a textile designer I think the assumption is, oh, you can make me a dress so you can make me a cushion, you know? I mean, I can do those things, don't get me wrong, but also, I could potentially make a textile, that could power your entire house. You know, there's so much that a textile or material can do that is misunderstood, and I think this misunderstanding has always been present in what I do, even as an individual on a personal level. I think that sort of third space that I exist in and materials exists in, it's not binary. It's not like black and white or it's not- operating in these extremes. I think for me, it's about creating this balance between these worlds, rather than one that is offering a solution, it'ss offering alternatives. That's what materials do ultimately. 

David  And the education that you've just described…actually, that kind of education aspect of the company is really at the heart of your mission. Where do you think people's understanding of materials currently sits? And if you were going to grade them out of 10, you know, where are we now and where do you think we should be? 

Seetal Oh God, that's a really good question. Okay, so, as a society, we are material illiterate. I would say- we don't understand materials as much as we could. So the educational side to my practice is almost a fundamental route in which we direct or navigate every project through and that can be maybe with a quiz which we have developed and that offers you the opportunity to understand your material qualities in form and identity of your material palette through understanding the emotional qualities, as well as the functional qualities to the material, so you develop a vocabulary from that and that vocabulary is a non-typological one, which is the current framework in which materials exist because the current framework is really problematic. I would say, it's framed on nouns. So like textile is put into a textile category. And I see that textile could be made from a variety of materials, you know, a composite. It could be made from seaweed. It could be made from linen, it could be made from Kevlar, for example. If by putting it in to a textile category that doesn't allow the person who wants to use that material in whatever function they require, it doesn't allow them to understand it for what it can do, as well as how it behaves. So you need to really be an expert to understand that alone. So that framework of this type of logical framework of material categorization is a problematic one, because it doesn't allow for non-experts to relate to them. So, I'm building something which has a relationship to. emotion and function, basically, and these different sorts of value systems can perhaps inform a qualitative one and a quantitative one. So I think both can be measured equally and they both should be equally valuable. Therefore, it would allow for a more holistic approach and a more caring one and a respectful one so that's the foundation of the school as such and we deliver workshops- we deliver all sorts of learning instruments through that series of schooling or learning, I don't like the word school, sorry, I'm trying to use learning more. And that's because school seems a bit colonialism, power or hierarchical, and I don't think there's. I mean, I'm a cheetah as well. And my practises are very much about learning and guiding, so school just seems really hierarchical and actually, we learn from each other. There's an exchange happening, and schools sometimes just give you this student/ tutor complex give the. Almost as if she's a student, so complex and or hierarchy and I don't really want to have that. I learn so much from my students and vice versa. So, I just wanted it to be a bit more sort of equal in that sense. And I hope that answers your question. 

David  It does very well. And it's interesting and important to be as considerate as you obviously are about all aspects of what you do, really, including language, and matter obviously has a strong environmental and political agenda. Can you talk about this purpose and why it's so important to you? 

Seetal  Yeah, because if we almost reframe our relationship with materials, we end up with a set of values ultimately, and those types of values will impact. The way that we care for our environment, because those values will be framed around care, respect, love and perhaps even trust. You know, they have very fundamental principles. And I would say. Human beings and faith and yeah, one that I feel is very connected to consumption and consumerism and the lack of those values have somehow led us into a space of over consumption, because we've become a bit indulgent, perhaps. And so those values have definitely connected to political systems as well. And so, the current capitalistic system that we are creating in doesn't allow for these other value systems to be part of the same space or the same conversation even. I'm really trying to readdress that I think, so that it can be done through understanding different methods of growth. Basically, the capitalistic one is more about economic growth. Whereas that is valuable, but it doesn't need to be at the rate and at the speed and at the scale in which Capitalist operates... and we can operate in multiple scales, multiple speeds and multiple futures and what have you. It just needs to allow for multiples, it needs to allow for plurality's, it needs to be more inclusive of those differences. I don't know what political system I would like to exist in, I'm not sure if it even exists right now. I think there needs to be a question of perhaps the political system- they're all outdated, I should say.

David  Yeah, I agree. I couldn't agree more. I think what we've been looking at just over the last three or four months is actually as we look forward, as a studio, you know, a business plan that's based more on an ecosystem idea that exists really to bring about harmony and balance rather than just the perpetual growth that most businesses are based on. Because obviously, you know, through like you, we want to bring around positive change through our work. But it has to stop to a degree, you have to operate your own business in a way that is sustainable and balanced and harmonious if you want to create an environment whereby you can create work, which is going to have that same effect on the wider world and your partnerships and ultimately, you know, bring about that positive change. And it feels to me like a lot of change in terms of sustainable thinking has been driven by customer demands rather than the brands or the businesses driving change themselves. What change have you seen over the last few years? 

Seetal I think brands are trying to make an effort as well. I mean, I work with a number of them. And I see you see lots of interest from them in order to maake change. They just don't know how to do it or where to look, because they are so large some of them, that it takes a lot for them to reorient. But I think a lot of the time they can do it in stages. Well, the only way to do it actually is in stages because they can't change overnight somehow, even though actually the pandemic might have given them the opportunity to do so. And because everything has ground to a halt for a lot of them, I would say, and maybe make a lot of the bands have even pivoted to boards making PPE gear. I know LVMH, for example are making hand sanitiser, and that is for hospitals and you know, all the frontline workers. That's incredible to pivot that quickly under such a crisis and loads of brands now are even making facemasks and what have you and I think a crisis such as the one that we're in right now has given brands a bit of a wakeup call, I would say. In order to make produce that are about survival and not necessarily consumption in the same way. So I think we need to somehow reorient. That, too, was something that is about survival and not necessarily saying survival and like beating other things or others, it's not about that. It's more about living in harmony and in balance- like you were saying earlier. So I think that there is time for change and there is change happening and some well, actually, most change only happens in a crisis and that sort of discomfort, you know, the idea of discomfort and change sits side by side with one another, we've been comfortable for too long. 

David Yeah, I completely agree. You know, and progress doesn't happen in the comfort zone. And I agree there are some very heartening, you know, examples of organisations rethinking very quickly and changing. And I just I hope that this is the beginning of lasting kind of commitment and change. I'd like to talk about do you work in three different timeframes. Can you talk about those and why it's so important to your practice? 

Seetal It's kind of three different timeframes, but I think they're perhaps more than that. The immediate near and far picture, and we're all always working within some kind of picture but I think when working with say other companies and brans and organisations and then need or the desire to want to change to something that is more sustainable is one that can't just happen overnight because they have their supply chains already in place. But what can happen is if they make more changes and they lead to larger changes, we can start to think about, like what does the immediate future look like for currently? So what is your material landscape right now. What can we do to use these materials to their full potential in order for you to create more possibilities with what you already have, and that already allows for something that is a bit more sustainable, actually, because you know, those materials are being met, therefore potential is being met ultimately. If we understand the full potential of those materials if they can be decisive ability, I think they can be decisive disassembly or, you know, all sorts of things. And then we can move towards something that is introducing, perhaps alternative materials or alternative methods of production. And then the other timeframe is looking at, you know, changing the systems. So the way in which these materials are actually applied and that there's different temporality basically say the durability, disassembly or even versatility or if that open, you know, there's so many ways in which a single material can operate within. So those three timeframes are related to those.  And I think that ultimately ends up with a bit of a constitution of sorts, so you understand the life-cycle analysis of it. You understand the scale of it. You understand the temporality of it as well. And also, the possibilities and the potential of those materials can work within basically. 

David Well, in terms of potentiality, one of the things that matter does, which I find particularly fascinating, is how you explore what materiality means in the virtual realm. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Seetal Yes, sure. I've done quite a bit of work around this in terms of viscal materiality and for me, like different material is kind of very expressive or narrative driven, it's sort of a communication tool to some degree, but it gives the viewer and even the person creating those materials the ability to almost manipulate what it can do and even broaden the language around those materials to. So, it can do something that's impossible in the physical space. So, there are a number of studios out there. One being based in Copenhagen. They have manipulated the material, digital material in such a way that they can make something look like marble but actually it becomes really fluid. And that's physically impossible. You can't really do that. So, they're kind of expanding the potential of that material in the digital space and giving it a whole new narrative. 

David Do you think we might see more real and virtual experiences overlapping in the future? 

Seetal Oh, yeah. It's already happening. We have a digital and physical life right now, don't we? So. If anything, they're converging more and more, and I think we will probably be a bit more seamless and something that we might not even think will separate somehow. They coexist in our lives already. Like, I live a digital life on Instagram. And I live a physical life in my home, for example. Its very edited what people see on Instagram versus what they see in my real life. So we choose what we want others to see in our digital lives, which I find quite fascinating. And that sort of informs how people see us somehow. And yeah, I think there's two worlds are converging for sure, but they are very different at the same time because they're material, physical material world is framed around a different set of values so that their physical materials abstracted. And also, it costs money in physical money. So whereas in like a digital world, the value system is time. So, the amount of time you spend creating it. And so those different value systems actually are kind of an interesting one to sort of question. And almost the hierarchies within the digital space are completely diminished somehow. And like in comparison to physical ones. So, marble in a physical world will be highly expensive, but a marble in a digital world is one that framed around time. And it could be the same cost of plastic. So that for me, it's quite interesting, and I think that's how they differ. I mean, like the cost in terms of carbon is an interesting one and it's something that I think should be explored more, it's omething that I'm really questioning right now is that the fact that most of us working digitally or virtually, should I say. We are consuming more carbon by doing, so? Or is it more carbon heavy in a physical world? So, I think a lot of this is...like during this pandemic, I think we need to be questioning that a lot more. 

David I agree. I think it's interesting, isn't it, when you look at things from different angles because so take cryptocurrency, for example. The you know, in some ways it's good that we're pushing at the edges of new systems or monetary systems that could have different ways and more effective ways, fairer ways of existing. But the carbon footprint prints associated with cryptocurrency is absolutely massive. And somehow, we need to get on top of that side of things. And I feel that we're kind of at very early stages with so many technologies and we're quite naive to their potential. And what I'm seeing a lot of is a lot of experimentation. Of course, you know in virtual augmented realms. But I often question what's the point of it? In truth, you know, ultimately we need to be building solutions to problems and not kind of putting the technology before the requirement of it, you know, and allowing the issue or problem we're trying to solve to be informed, you know, first and then the technology second.

Seetal I have a slight issue with the word problems and solutions, and I feel. It's not as linear or binary as that, I think. How do I frame this? For me, a lot of the reasons why we are here, the fact that we as human society, we have wanted to fix things. We wanted to solve problems. And there isn't just one solution to a problem, there are multiples. And for me, I frame this around providing alternatives. And I think there are alternatives to that and issues or questions? And one that is a more inclusive one and one that is framed around plurality's and one like courage, slight alternative futures and temporalities and all those things we've been talking about scale's and what have you. So, it can be accepting of those differences and allow for those differences to exist, because one solution can't be for everyone. That's universalism and that's really problematic, and the example of that is plastic. And plastic has been a really problematic, one because of human consumption, right? Plastic is designed for disposability. And why is it designed for disposability when it can last up to five hundred, six hundred, maybe even more? And it doesn't make any sense, but that's just because of human convenience and laziness. And also, the cost of it. It's so cheap to produce. But that has been a solution to a problem to allow a universal solution, and that universal solution doesn't work. It just doesn't it just conjures up more problems. So, the idea of a solution just seems too definitive and too finite and it doesn't allow for it to evolve, whereas alternatives allow for an evolution. And that's where we need to be. And that can be uncomfortable for a lot of people because it doesn't seem like we're solving anything. It doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere. But solutions will always have problems. Alternatives will also have other problems that we need to address. So, by offering alternatives, it means that we can be inclusive of other cultures as well. And I think that's the route we need to be on right now, the path that we need to be on. 

David Yeah, I love that way of thinking. I think I understand where you're coming from when it comes to the kind of finite nature of the word solutions and that we need to see it more as a continuum, that we can continue to evolve and iterate upon. I'd love to focus a little on the creative industry. I think design and advertising is becoming more mission driven, which is exciting. But I think as a whole, we can be guilty of not really addressing the impacts on the world when it comes to materials. What advice would you give to designers wanting to think in a more circular way? 

Seetal It depends what their mission is. I think it definitely seems that more people, more designers and agencies and brands and what have you, they are kind of reconsidering their mission and their vision even. But it also depends on what that mission is, because there is an agenda to that.  That agenda needs to be inclusive of the planet, so we need to somehow reorient from a human centric one to a planet centric one. So we've been diviners have been human centered for such a long time. 

David I’m really interested in where your life force comes from, what drives you? 

Seetal Well, basically, there's a couple of responses to that. My rituals that I have created for myself, my daily rituals, one of them being I have a yoga practise, which I do. I dedicate every day like at least an hour and a half or an hour, at least of my day to that practise and that ultimately grounds me, it connects me to the community. It allows some reflection time for myself and gives me the ability to trust in myself, basically because I'm doing postures that I didn't think were possible. But I also have these other tools, which may sound quite bizarre, but I'll say it anyway. I have been doing a lot of diving into the divine, the divine feminine, divine masculine, and trying to somehow create some sort of balance between myself, the divine feminine is because I practised Kundalini yoga as well. And that's framed around that, and so my divine feminine side is the left and then the divine masculine is the right. So, I have created these sorts of personas that allow me to see myself through those lenses. And I guess I've been doing a lot of work on my self-worth and that has been quite challenging for me for my whole life. So, I'm just developing all these different sorts of tools to give me that strength or energy to understand myself. And once I understand myself more, I can understand my practise more. My practise actually allows me to understand myself more. I do a lot of reading, fiction and non-fiction as well, so it gives me the ability to...I find reassurance in other people's words, so I'm not always doing my own thinking and that's really helpful, so I don't feel so alone in my thoughts. And I think that's a really valuable tool. Writing is an incredible tool for me, even though I find it incredibly hard. And I find it tricky to even call myself a writer, even in public. It's really strange. It's just because I have a bit of imposter syndrome around that anyway. That's because I feel a bit fraudulent, because I haven't been trained, like formally trained as a writer, but that's my own battle to deal with. But I find writing really cathartic and... yeah, it's been an incredible tool for me even thought I find it incredibly hard if I'm writing something meaningful. 

David What gives you hope, looking forward, Seetal?

Seetal I have a lot of hope in people actually. I know that sounds really silly. Maybe by now but I think the capacity we have to make change is so great, and so large and we're seeing it happen right in front of us. And we have shifted so dramatically. And even though we are in a crisis, multiple sets of crises, I think with the Black Lives Matter movement being one, and the pandemic being another, you know, environmental crises with the oil spill. You know, this is a lot right now that we are faced with. And that ultimately, they're systemic ones, like deep systemic ones. But we can change and if anything, these times have shown us is that we have the capacity to do that. So, I think I'm hopeful and that's quite exhausting to be hopeful but I think the more conversations that are happening around all of these things, the better. I'm a very open person and as you know and this conversation has revealed a lot of that, I think. And the idea of exchanging and having these dialogues are a really valuable one, I think, narratives and storytelling...we'll only offer something that perhaps might connect those and provide some sort of relational relationality there as well. So yes, I know it might sound silly to say that I appropriate people, but I think if anything this time has proven that we have that capacity to do so. 

David I couldn't agree more. Thank you for being so, so honest and open and sharing Seetal. I know everyone you know who listens will appreciate that as much as I do and. Yeah. Thank you for a fantastic conversation. It's been fascinating. It's been really great to talk to you. Thank you Seetal.

David: Thanks for listening to our conversation today. I hope you find Seetal and her work as inspiring as I do. Endless Vital Activity is brought to you by Accept & Proceed. Remember, creativity can reimagine our world.