Spalding's Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East

Adam and Stephan discuss one of the foundational book series of "Western Esotericism", Baird T. Spalding's "Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East". Filled with stories of miracles and instruction to lead practitioners to the hidden truths of our universal powers and consciousness.

Copyright 2023 by Letters to the Sky

Transcript

Stephan Downes:
Hi. I'm Stephan Downes.

Adam Rizvi:
And I'm Adam Rizvi.

Stephan Downes:
And this is Letters to the Sky, a podcast about the metaphysical iconoclasts, philosophical visionaries, and religious leaders of the world.

Adam Rizvi:
Whether you consider yourself religious, spiritual, neither, or something in between, we invite you to take a deep dive with us down metaphysical rabbit holes and learn to see your life from a new perspective.

Stephan Downes:
Hello, Adam.

Adam Rizvi:
Hello, Stephan.

Stephan Downes:
How are you doing?

Adam Rizvi:
Great. Great, great, great.

Stephan Downes:
That's good. 

Adam Rizvi:
Master of awkwardness, man.

Stephan Downes:
I love your one-word answers. Do you know we're recording a podcast right now?

Adam Rizvi:
That's right. That's right.

Stephan Downes:
Some conversation would be good, or else it's just going to be me here.

Adam Rizvi:
Uh-huh (affirmative).

Stephan Downes:
My cat is sick, so if he meows and yowls a little bit, I'm sorry everyone, but when he's uncomfortable, he gets sassy.

Adam Rizvi:
And he just went to the vet, right?

Stephan Downes:
He did. He got some shots because he has an upset tummy.

Adam Rizvi:
Well, I hope he gets better.

Stephan Downes:
Me too.

Adam Rizvi:
And it'd be nice to have a little feline love in the middle of our call, too. That'd be nice.

Stephan Downes:
All right. They're not pretty. His yowls aren't pretty. Okay. All right. All right.

Adam Rizvi:
So, which book are we reading?

Stephan Downes:
Good Dog, Carl. All right. We-

Adam Rizvi:
Wait. Try that one again.

Stephan Downes:
Good Dog, Carl. Why are you holding up Good Dog, Carl?

Adam Rizvi:
The book I have in my hand here... We're on a Zoom here and Stephan is having trouble reading. The book I had in my hands is Baird T. Spalding's Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East, Volume One.

Stephan Downes:
Volume One. Okay. All right. Fair enough. That's the truth. I was lying before. We're not reading... We should do Good Dog, Carl.

Adam Risvi:
Oh, yeah.

Stephan Downes:
It was a favorite kid's book growing up. All right. Adam, you want to tell us a little bit about Papa Spalding?

Adam Rizvi:
Papa Spalding. Yes, so this is a gentleman who... It's interesting. I was researching his life and realized there's more that we don't know about him than there is that we do. I wanted to start with something as simple as when was he born and where was he born, but even those two things were hard to find. Some sources say he was born in England. Others say he was born in Upstate New York, and then even others say he was born in India, so that's interesting.

Stephan Downes:
I don't get a Cockney accent from the writing of this book.

Adam Rizvi:
You don't get a Cockney accent?

Stephan Downes:
No, no.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. Well, I guess it could be New York. I certainly don't get an Indian accent, but-

Stephan Downes:
I certainly don't.

Adam Risvi:
Yeah.

Stephan Downes:
He sounds like the whitest guy in India.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah, yeah. He was born, per some records, in 1857, but there are other records that say he was born in 1872. So, it's not quite clear, but regardless at some point in his young adulthood, he claims to have gone to India where he experienced very spiritually advanced men and women who demonstrated powers, psychic powers to put it simply, but really I think the crux of the book is capturing those stories and capturing that it's more than the psychic powers. It was their spiritual understanding and the depth of their realization that really made it worth writing a book about. Though records do note that he was a mining engineer in the American West for the majority of his life, and coupled with that of course the speaking engagements of these books that he had written. That's what we know on a high level about Papa Spalding.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah, and I would say we're doing this book I think for a couple of reasons. One, because it's a... Well, not even one. The big reason is because it is really foundational to understanding American spirituality especially, and probably Western spirituality more broadly, especially as it relates to kind of the New Age movement of these ideas that were brought over from the East and you know, kind of took hold in the minds of Westerners, specifically Americans in kind of the late 19 through first third to half of the 20th century. There was definitely a particular flavor to them, and we talked about it with talking about Madame Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society, and we started talking about it with ascended masters. You know, there are other books we could get into, too. It's hard for me to put Yogananda into this category just because he is actually an Indian person, but a lot of his writings sound very much like this era. I think it probably had something to do with that kind of series of generations where the English they used was still very proper. It was still very like classy, so to speak. Had a bit of more of an aristocratic feel to it, but this book is, regardless of when Baird T. Spalding was born or even whether he actually went to India and met these beings, I really feel like there's nothing in these books that shocked me, even knowing Indian tradition aside from Western views of it. None of this stuff is out of the ordinary for hearing about spiritually advanced people in India.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. I would absolutely agree. I think when this book came out, I think the things that were shared with these beings who were purportedly living 500, 600 years who could levitate, who could bilocate, who could communicate via thought transference or telepathy, I mean, these are some of the things that he talks about in the book having witnessed. At that time in the 1920s when this book was published, those were outrageous. Those were wild and crazy statements to make, and I think it did a lot to explode the mass consciousness at the time. There was a burgeoning understanding of spiritualty, whether you call it the New Thought movement, or the Unity movement, or even the spiritualist movements at the time, which the Theosophical Society was a part of, that was really in its nascent phase, but this blew something open. It feels like that way to me. However, as you noted, Stephan, I felt the same way. I read this book when I was a lot younger, and there was such a feeling of, "Well, yeah. Of course. Of course this is possible. Of course this is where humanity is headed if it wishes to be." I think I do want to say at the outset of this episode that this episode isn't about whether these events happened or not because I don't think that that is relevant, nor is it helpful because, okay. You're convinced that they happened. Okay, great. You're convinced that they haven't happened. Well, okay. Great. There's no movement there, but if you can take the story for what it is, which is an inspirational story, I think, at its heart, and if you take it at that, there is a lot of movement. There's a lot of possibility there.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah, absolutely. For those of you who have read this book, you'll be already familiar with its structure, but for those who haven't, the book... and actually, this is a series of books. There are six of them, although only the first I think four are actually the story of this man's travels. Then the last two, I believe, are kind of teaching tools for people who want to use this, just teach this work in America, for example. So, the structure is this gentleman Baird T. Spalding is in India with a crew of people presumably there to do some sort of expeditioning in the late 19th century. As Adam said, they meet these advanced beings, these masters as they call them. The book goes through their travels with them and the lessons that they teach them, and they are very inspirational, but the bulk of the book is actually dialogues by these beings. That's why we're considering it so inspirational. There is like, "They did this. Then this happened," especially at the beginning when he's giving some context for the types of things that these beings can do, but a lot of the chapters are the beings themselves dialoguing with Baird T. Spalding or people at present. So, there are pages and pages of quotes that are just of beings, one of these masters speaking to the audience, so to speak. And a lot of them you know have this similar feeling. It's basically like they're drilling it into your head that these things are possible. I just want to give people a little bit of context if you haven't read them that the bulk of these books is basically inspirational dialogue from these masters.

Adam Rizvi:
Let's dive in to the book itself.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah, and we'll say for this one, we actually don't have three questions this time. Everyone who's so used to us and craves the three-question format, I am so sorry. We're going to try and do it like we did the first time with Zarathustra, except we're going to do it much better because now we have a few podcasts under our belt.

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, man.

Stephan Downes:
Those are famous last words. I'm sorry I said that. I shouldn't have said that.

Adam Rizvi:
You totally just set up expectations, man.

Stephan Downes:
Okay. Oh, God. Okay. I don't know what to do. Carry forward. Carry on. Move forward.

Adam Rizvi:
For all the listeners out there, lower your expectations. Wherever they are right now, they need to be lower.

Stephan Downes:
All right. Adam, do you want to start?

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm going to start by reading the forward of the book because this gives you, from Papa Spalding's... From his mouth straight to your ears, you'll get his intention with this book. "In presenting the Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East, I wish to state that I was one of a research party of 11 persons that visited the Far East in 1894. During our stay, three and a half years, we contacted the great masters of the Himalayas, who aided us in the translation of the records, which was of great assistance in our research work. They permitted us to enter into their lives intimately and we were thus able to see the actual working of the great law as demonstrated by them. We call them masters, which is merely our name for them. One living the life described herein is entitled to reverence and consideration as a master." I like that forward because it gives the tone of the book right from the get-go. You're joining Baird Spalding and his crew on a journey, and you are getting to experience from their point of view what it's like to live with masters, with people who understand the great law and can demonstrate them. And this is another thing, too, that we end up learning in the book is if ever there was a time for our Christian listeners or anyone who believes in Jesus Christ, the stories of walking on water and the miracles that he performed, if there's a part of you that believes that those things indeed happened, then this book seeks to answer how. What was it that Jesus did? What mindset was he in? What spiritual understanding did he have that enabled him to do that? And I think the other point that this book makes pretty clearly multiple times is that there wasn't anything special about Jesus, that every human being, if they had that understanding, could enact, as they say, the great law and demonstrated it in the same way.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. I'm sure I'm not going to quote it directly here, but I mean, I'm quite certain that one of Jesus's quotes in the Bible is that, "These and greater works, you shall do," which always struck me as one of the points is that, "I am not special. You are like this too. You just don't believe it or know it yet." So this book, as you said, goes into it in more plain English than the Bible for sure, although it doesn't give literal step-by-step instructions. It gives a kind of a rundown of the mentality and the way one might go about it.

Adam Rizvi:
This is probably a good time for another quote.

Stephan Downes:
Go ahead. Quote it.

Adam Rizvi:
Page 16, if there's anyone following along. "We know that this greatest of all teachers," and they're talking about Jesus in this quote. "We know that this greatest of all teachers came to show more fully that the Christ in him and through whom he did his mighty works is the same Christ that lives in you, in me, and in all mankind, that we can, by applying his teachings, do all the works that he did and greater works."

Stephan Downes:
Oh, there you go, right there. It's even in this book. 

Adam Rizvi:
That's right.

Stephan Downes:
They said, carrying on from that, "We believe that Jesus came to show more fully that God is the one great and only cause of all things, that God is all." Yeah. All right. Well, I feel like we've kind of set up the book.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. Yeah, and now it's interesting. We kind of chatted about this before starting the episode, but although Baird Spalding went to India, the language is very Western and very Christian, I would even say in it's-

Stephan Downes:
Yeah, absolutely.

Adam Rizvi:
... use of the word God, Christ, and you know similar... They even talk about John the Baptist and different stories, but a lot of Christian overtones in this, which is interesting. And I think this is something you said, Stephan, earlier. I think that's more indicative of the masters teaching in a way and language that this party could understand.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. Absolutely, and I'm hoping we talked about it in the Buddhist episode, but the concept called upaya, which is masters who are truly enlightened have the ability to meet students exactly where they are, and to say things in a way that are understood, and it's called skillful means. And so when I hear this kind of language, it doesn't really take me out of it, although someone who's a bit more skeptical would look at this and say, "Well, why didn't they use Indian terminology, or Tibetan, or wherever they happen to be?" It's always just kind of like, "Well, you wouldn't use that with someone who didn't know those concepts." Indeed, especially talking about Jesus as being a master just like one of them, that you know, you wouldn't need to. These concepts already exist in the Western mind, someone who was raised Christian.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. That's exactly right. I mean, even the concept of God is largely not found in the East, except in modified forms I think. In various Vedantic lineages, you of course have gods and goddesses, but they're not viewed in the same way as monotheistic religions. Right? They are more readily acknowledged as reflections of the psyche, archetypes of certain energies of nature and of the cosmos, but when God as an ultimate sense is brought up in the Eastern traditions, it's usually in an impersonal formless way, like the ground of being. Right? That kind of thing, which is more of a Buddhist concept. Dharmakaya, right? Something that's far beyond form. But in this case, there's language like, "God loves his children and God wishes to embrace his son." Right? There's that kind of language that really brings you into a Western mindset, but also I think is upaya. It's skillful means. Like you generate a sense of love and a feeling of oneness, and being cared for, and being loved by this great force, this great presence.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. Absolutely. That didn't really, that didn't really bug me because I kind of took it... It's like reading the Bible in an esoteric way. The language, it says something in words that can be interpreted multiple ways, and you just have to know how to read it. That being said, to maybe get a little more into this book's meaning to me is, just like you said, you talked about the relationship of it, generating that love, and that devotion, and that reverence. You know, that is the way that these masters talk about beginning to step onto this path of achieving this mastery for ourselves is really to alter the relationship that we have to both our external and our internal worlds. And instead of seeing the world outside of us or even the world inside of us as antagonistic, as something that has to be conquered through force of will, there is a request to turn inward and to develop a sensitivity to what's already there, to what's already available. And this is probably why it sounds so familiar to me, who is someone who is a little more versed in the Eastern traditions, as that's exactly what you would hear if you were in India or you were in a place like Tibet. It is developing more of a sensitivity to what's already there as opposed to trying to command it with your human will.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. That's really well said. I mean, that's the nature of the word esoteric, right? Eso as opposed to exoteric. This is really about going within or becoming aware of what is within. This book, there's two things. I do want to share some stories that Baird Spalding shares, but before I do that, I want to say something. I read this book when I was really young, and it did two things for me.

Stephan Downes:
Like three, or like baby's first book for you? I wouldn't be surprised.

Adam Rizvi:
I was a freshman in high school, so ninth grade.

Stephan Downes:
Four?

Adam Rizvi:
No. Ninth grade. The book did a couple of things for me. One, it solidified in mind that there have got to be people out there who can do these things. It wasn't just one person 2,000 years ago. There are many, many people and it made the world of oneness with God so much closer as a reality. It was very inspiring in that sense because I felt like, "I want to be like that. I want to be like those masters."

Stephan Downes:
Mhm.

Adam Rizvi:
"I want to study, and I want to learn, and I want to feel what it's like to live life that way, to live life in such deep harmony with all of reality, and to not suffer anymore." And the other thing that I did was... I think this was also a product of me being a teenager having read the book is I just thought it was so cool to be able to walk through fire and walk on water, and that feeling of this is pretty damn cool. It was also inspiring, but in a way that a teenager mind would appreciate.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. You could like, you could smite people.

Adam Rizvi:
Yes.

Stephan Downes:
You could just straight up smite them. Like oh my God.

Adam Rizvi:
Like telekinetic powers and moving rocks with my mind.

Stephan Downes:
Mhm. And smiting people. Yeah.

Adam Risvi:
Clearly that's something that you want to do.

Stephan Downes:
I smote the. Yeah. I did not read it in high school. I was a stoner failing out of college when I read this book.

Adam Rizvi:
Hey, you made it this far, Stephan.

Stephan Downes:
Somehow. Not my doing, that's for damn sure. I had the same feelings, which I think a lot of people do, which is probably why this book, this series has kind of held its place in the development of Western spirituality is that it is a very inspiring story, and the words that are spoken by these masters do ring true for a lot of people of, "What if you didn't have to fight against everything? What if you didn't have to struggle swimming against a current?" And not even that it's you feel like you are. It's just like that's how they describe the natural state of like mortal human consciousness, which I think everyone can relate to, you know? That's not even outside of spiritual circles. That's a very common you know, experience.

Adam Rizvi:
Right. Exactly. Let me read a little bit from the beginning. This is one of... For those who have read this book, this is like a classic scene in the book. I certainly have this image imprinted in my mind, and I've since gone on to other forums, and a lot of people talk about how this particular scene has stayed with them, but it's the opening scene of Baird Spalding meeting one of the masters, Master Emil, outside. And Master Emil is looking at a bird circling above, and this is on page 11.

Stephan Downes:
Wait and guys, just bear with Adam because he's just learning how to read, so if he makes some mistakes, please forgive him.

Adam Rizvi:
"One Sunday afternoon-"

Stephan Downes:
Very good.

Adam Rizvi:
"... Emil and I..." This is like follow along. Hooked on Phonics, man. I graduated. All right. "One Sunday afternoon Emil and I were walking in a field when he called my attention to a pigeon circling overhead and casually remarked that the bird was looking for him. He stood perfectly still, and in a few moments the bird alighted upon his outstretched arm. He said the bird has a message from his brother in the North. This proved to be a fellow worker who had not reached the attainment whereby he could communicate directly, so he took this means. We later found that the masters are able to communicate with each other instantly by thought transference or, as they call it, a force much more subtle than either electricity or wireless."

Stephan Downes:
Even back then they knew about wifi. 5G. 5G, baby.

Adam Rizvi:
Wireless. Yeah. What do you think about when... if you heard that for the first time? Well, you're kind of an odd one. You already follow this stuff, but what would you think that someone in the 1920s, an average Joe hearing this, would think?

Stephan Downes:
I feel like my mind wouldn't know how to process it. It'd be almost like a, "Okay." Kind of just a barely registering what's happening you know, which I think would probably be the same for the rest of the stuff in the story, and clearly you know it is for these guys. I don't think my brain would really register it, to be completely honest.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephan Downes:
I feel like I would be incredibly skeptical.

Adam Rizvi:
I think that's pretty... Yeah. If you think about it, this is pretty bold. This is pretty bold for him to write about, especially in that day and age. And for those people... Let me just say, for those people who think Baird Spalding was out to make a buck, there really are so many better ways to have made money at that time than writing stuff that would largely get ignored or leave people highly, highly incredulous. But anyway, that's just my personal opinion about the matter. What I would say when I read this, he establishes a couple things. It's a beautiful scene, first of all. You see this master who's staring at the sky, and this beautiful bird lands on his outstretched arm, and he's clearly in harmony with the birds. I mean, how often do we walk around and we see birds flying above us? Do we connect with them? Do we relate to them? Do we have a sense of harmony with the natural world around us? I am left with this feeling like here's this master who is walking about his daily business you know, doing normal things, and then is able to instantly be in harmony with a bird flying above, and gathering that this bird is looking for him. I mean, that's awesome.

Stephan Downes:
It is. I mean, and then this is like the tip of the iceberg of what they talk about. I think from then on, I'm trying to remember. I don't think it's immediately after that they talk about... One of the first things they do is when they start um speaking with these people who... Emil begins helping them do some translation work of things that they're working on, and then they start traveling you know you to another village, and one of the things that Emil asks them is he basically says, "I'll meet you there. Why don't you leave someone here to see what happens, and then he will rejoin your party? Once we all get there, we'll wait for him, and see what he has to say, and you know document everything." The thing that Emil and the other... It's predominantly Emil because the other masters, especially in the beginning of the book, didn't really have as much of a command of... They weren't directing the party in the same way that Emil was, but he said basically, "Document anything. I'm not asking you to believe any of this. I'm not asking you to take my word for any of this. We're all going to be with you, and you can make your own conclusions," which is a theme throughout the book, and it's a theme that a lot of you know, Awakened masters have, which is they're not out to prove anything to anybody. They're not out to make you believe them, you know? And if they are, for me, that's a huge red flag. None of the people that I would consider to be actual enlightened masters you know really... Not that they don't care, but they know they can't. They know they can't do your job for you, and so they don't spend a lot of time like trying to convince people. Okay. That being said, they make this journey, and then they get there. It's like a 10-day or five-day multiple-day trek by foot between these villages and they leave Emil behind and they are kind of like, "Okay. I don't understand how he's going to meet us there." Then when they get to the village, he's there waiting for them. This is like remote India. This isn't... He didn't hail a cab. He didn't take a plane. He didn't take a train. These things aren't there, and so-

Adam Rizvi:
In the late 1800s, no less.

Stephan Downes:
The late 1800s. Yeah. Concord. So he, you know he was there and that was one of the first times that they were just like, "Okay. What's happening? What's happening?" And so later on, the member of the party who was there documenting, he speaks about, "I believe that Emil like basically laid down in a quiet state and just kind of like stopped. His body stopped functioning, so to speak, but it stayed kind of bright and vibrant. Then eventually it kind of disappeared." They timed it, and that was like a couple minutes before they arrived at the other place and Emil was there. This is the first of many of these instances where they are bilocating, or I mean not to tell you bilocating necessarily, but like teleporting essentially. The different masters have different abilities depending on how advanced they are, of how much control they have over their bodies. Yeah. So that was one of the first times. Now, that would blow my mind. That, I would probably have like a stroke and go comatose at if someone... Even now. Even now, to see that.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's very... As you were saying, that I remembered that scene from Return of the Jedi, the third scene were Yoda is basically dying on his death bed, and he turns to Luke, and he's like, "Luke, there is another Skywalker." Then he dies, and then his body disappears.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah.

Adam Rizvi:
That, I find it interesting. I don't know what George Lucas's source was, other than tapping into the collective unconscious and sort of into a collective wisdom, but I feel like there's that sense of mastery where the body just vanishes, right? Because there's an awareness of its inherent unreality, right? That the body is more a projection from the mind rather than something that's physically real, I don't know, in a materialistic sense. That's what that story leaves for me. It's like glimpsing another world, glimpsing another reality.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That seems very far removed from ours.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Let me share another quote here. I love sharing quotes because I just feel like there's a certain power.

Stephan Downes:
I'm so behind on the quotes. I feel like I haven't had many quotes for the past few episodes. I'm sorry, everyone.

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, God. Don't worry.

Stephan Downes:
Here. Oh, no. Here. I got one for us. I got one. Okay. Ready?

Adam Rizvi:
Okay, okay. You go.

Stephan Downes:
Page 92, "You are our guests here." There you go. That was the quote. Now your turn, Adam.

Adam Rizvi:
Is there actually... There's got to be more to it than that, "You are our guests here." I don't even see that. Oh, yeah. It is in quotations.

Stephan Downes:
Thank you. I wouldn't lie.

Adam Rizvi:
Hold on. Let me provide some context to the listeners here. I don't even know what the... Oh, this is actually a good one. This is the scene. Okay. Here's the background. They're at some sort of inn eating a meal or having a meal, and first of all, the food manifests. Wait, no. This is probably not the first time, but there is a time where they're sitting down at a table, and food manifests out of thin air, and they say, "Where did this come from?" They're like, "It came from where everything comes from, the universal." That's something that gets repeated a lot in his book is understanding that all things, at least all things of form, come from a universal source and that because of that, there's a radical shifting in the sense of lack. Right? You can't have a sense of lack when you realize everything you could ever want comes from the same source, and that source is limitless. And that, I think, puts our current mindset of limited resources on its head and you realize, "No. There isn't limited resources because the source from which everything comes is limitless." Anyway, here's the quote, "After breakfast, when we arose from the table, one of my associates started to pay for the meal. Emil said, 'You are our guests here,' and held out to the lady in attendance what we thought was an empty hand, but when we looked a second time, there was just the amount of money necessary to pay the bill. We found that our friends did not carry money with them, neither did they depend on others for their supply. When money was needed, it was right at hand, created from the universal." That's so cool. You wouldn't have to work for money anymore.

Stephan Downes:
Wow. I mean, if I was one of these masters, that would be the least of my concerns. This 9:00 to 5:00 is really killing me.

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, the 9:00 to 5:00 grind, man. That's hilarious. See, that's why I feel siddhis-

Stephan Downes:
Siddhis are spiritual powers, for everybody listening.

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, thank you. Oh, you're-

Stephan Downes:
And we've probably mentioned that, but you know.

Adam Rizvi:
You're so good, Stephan. Thank you. Siddhis spelled S-I-D-D-H-I-S. Is that right?

Stephan Downes:
I believe so, yeah.

Adam Rizvi:
These powers I feel-

Stephan Downes:
Yes. That's correct.

Adam Rizvi:
... are best manifested after a certain level of spiritual development and spiritual awareness because if you get these powers and you're still thinking that you're separate from the world, alone, a victim of the cruel world around you, and then you get these powers, the way that they're going to be utilized is more likely than not will be in a selfish way.

Stephan Downes:
Absolutely.

Adam Rizvi:
Like getting money to buy a Rolls-Royce, and you know a Rolex, and a large mansion. Whatever it is people want these days.

Stephan Downes:
What do the commoners want? A Rolls-Royce? A mansion? I don't know. No, but that's true. I think I mentioned it before, but it's worth mentioning again is that in this book, and indeed in all sorts of other traditions, I mean, in this case from the East, from the Indian subcontinent, there is a focus siddhis as a way to show people that there's more going on than they think, but that ultimately the siddhis that are developed are secondary to the spiritual awakening that is you know deeper. So, setting up this notion that you could develop siddhis. There are people who learn how to control their bodies. I mean, even thinking of... I don't even know if you consider this a siddhi, but Wim Hof, right? Who is a Westerner who has phenomenal control over his nervous system and over the way his body regulates itself you know to the level where someone who knows these stories is like, "Well, that's like borderline siddhi." So, clearly it's possible, and I wouldn't say that Wim Hof is necessarily... He's never struck me as a particularly enlightened person. He's just someone who has figured out a phenomenal way to control his body, and that is kind of the equivalent, you know. You don't necessarily have to do the underlying spiritual work that correlates with something like enlightenment or ascension, and you could still have these. And so in a lot of traditions, they focus more on the understanding underneath it all, and indeed in a lot of traditions, siddhis aren't even taught until someone is an extremely high-trained adept.

Adam Rizvi:
I would say something. I feel like it's important to say if there is someone listening who was born with powers, with gifts let's say, if you're out there, and more and more there is a lot being documented. Like um, i'm not sure if you've heard this, Stephan, China's super psychics. Have you heard of this? 

Stephan Downes:
I haven't. 

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, yeah.

Stephan Downes:
Can you tell me about them?

Adam Rizvi:
There's documents of 100,000 or more verified cases by the Chinese government of children who are able to read books blindfolded by touching them or by you know putting a piece of paper under their foot, and then being able to read what's written on it, or placing their hands on it. All sorts of stuff, or like there's videos out there of these children lighting pieces of paper on fire without ever touching them. Anyway, there's a lot out there, and so I feel like there's more and more people that are discovering this about themselves. What I would say to them is it is not so much the gift that you have that necessarily makes you special, but it really is how it is used and to whom it is given. Right? If it's used in a selfish way, then there are ramifications that are consequences of that, but if you give it up to the highest of you, if you give it to be used, if you give yourself over as a tool for some greater purpose for a wisdom that is beyond the conscious mind to use for its purpose, then I say that is worthwhile. Then your gift is being put to good use. That's my two cents on it.

Stephan Downes:
Spoken like a true muggle. 

Adam Rizvi:
Potter reference. Love it. Okay.

Stephan Downes:
You know, people don't understand... No. I'm not even going to go there. No. Okay.

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, now you have to go there.

Stephan Downes:
I was going to make a Magneto, Professor X joke, but that makes it sound like I know anything about comic books, and I don't. I don't.

Adam Rizvi:
I'm sure you do, more than the average.

Stephan Downes:
I know that I... No.

Adam Rizvi:
The fact that you even know Magneto exists, come on.

Stephan Downes:
I've seen the X-Men movies. What do you want? Magneto is someone who thinks that his powers are a gift, and that he shouldn't have to apologize for them, and that he's of a superior you know race or whatever. Then Professor X is like, "No, no, no. We're no better than anybody else. Just because we have these powers doesn't give us an excuse to harass the world with them."

Adam Rizvi:
That's really good.

Stephan Downes:
You'd know that from watching the movies. I have never even read an X-Men comic book.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah, yeah. I think in your halfhearted defense of not being a nerd, you actually were able to convey something pretty profound there.

Stephan Downes:
Well, I never said I wasn't a nerd. I mean, I just called you a muggle.

Adam Rizvi:
I think... Actually, no. What you said about Professor X, that's really important. Yeah. It's how you... I think that applies to people who don't necessarily have psychic powers, but any gift, any ability that you have, whether it's being a great communicator, whether it's being a scientist. Whatever you find yourself doing in life that you are particularly good at, if you give it over to a greater force, in service of something greater than you, not only does that reflect your mindset, I think there's sort of a feedback in the sense that it entrains a certain mindset, which is that of humility and service, and ultimately a oneness with those who you serve.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. Absolutely. I'd say that, you know in my own experience, that playing around with powers or whatever you want to call them, I guess it's fun and well, but it doesn't really get you any further in any sort of spiritual development to be able to do something or not do something. In my experience and everything I've heard from my teachers is that they're separate things. As one develops spiritually, they appear as well. They don't have to be sought out, and most teachers prefer it that way. Most teachers that I know, anyway, that I'm familiar with. They prefer that they kind of emerge on their own, and they aren't this thing that's taught or you know sought out. Yeah.

Adam Rizvi:
All right. Let me dive into this next quote, page 34.

Stephan Downes:
All right. Which Harry Potter book is this one from?

Adam Rizvi:
This is from the Prisoner of Azkaban.

Stephan Downes:
Wow. Who's a nerd now?

Adam Rizvi:
Hey, I am unabashedly a nerd. The question is whether I'm a geek as well. A nerd and a geek. I don't know if there's a difference. I've heard there's a difference. All right so here's the quote. Page 34.

Stephan Downes:
Page 34. Okay. Getting back into it.

Adam Rizvi:
"Emil said, 'This is called...'" Oh, by the way, they arrive at a place called the Temple of Silence, which has the records that you were talking about earlier, Stephan, which apparently were records present at the time of Jesus, and John the Baptist, and all of that. "Emil said, 'This is called the Temple of Silence, the place of power. Silence is power, for when we reach the place of silence in mind, we have reached the place of power, the place where all is one, the one power, God. Be still and know that I am God. Diffused power is noise. Concentrated power is silence. "'When through concentration, drawing to a center, we have brought all of our forces into one point of force, we have contacted God in silence. We are one with him and hence one with all power. This is the heritage of man. I and the Father are one. There is but one way to be one with the power of God and that is consciously to contact God. This cannot be done in the without, for God manifests from within. The Lord is in his holy temple. Let all the earth keep silent before him. Only as we turn from the without to the silence of the within can we hope to make conscious union with God.'" That's pretty powerful stuff.

Stephan Downes:
It is. Yeah, and it's something we haven't really talked about much yet is the power of silence and its relationship to spiritual awakening. Do you want to talk a little bit more about it since we just read about it?

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, I would love that. That's a huge topic, and it's a very important topic.

Stephan Downes:
Do you think you could give us a primer in the next few minutes here before we wrap up?

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephan Downes:
Okay, let's go.

Adam Rizvi:
I definitely think that this is something worth diving into later on. So, a couple of things. There's a lot of symbolism in using the... I should say there's a lot of meaning in using the symbols of silence and noise. Sound, as you know, is vibration. It is a sine wave, essentially, right? Up and down. You have something that is vibrating and producing sound waves in a physics level. In order to produce vibration, you need two. You need two states of that object, right? That's what the vibration is about whereas silence is the cessation of movement. It's the cessation of vibration. It's where everything becomes still, and it's symbolically going from a place of duality, the two-ness of sound, to unity. And it relates to the very famous koan, what's the sound of one hand clapping?

Stephan Downes:
Who wrote that koan?

Adam Rizvi:
What's that?

Stephan Downes:
Who came up with that koan?

Adam Rizvi:
Well, you tell me, sir.

Stephan Downes:
One of your favorites. 

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, we should do a book on him.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. It's Hakuin-

Adam Rizvi:
Hakuin.

Stephan Downes:
... for everybody who's listening.

Adam Rizvi:
Master Hakuin.

Stephan Downes:
Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead. I loved what you were saying. I loved it.

Adam Rizvi:
Wild Ivy, by the way, for those who are interested. We will definitely do a book on him. He's an iconoclast. How have we not done a book on him yet? Okay.

Stephan Downes:
I don't know. He's like the coolest zen iconoclast who spent his life shit-talking other zen practitioners. It was great.

Adam Rizvi:
Oh my God. You know how they have these rap battles on YouTube?

Stephan Downes:
Yeah.

Adam Rizvi:
I feel like Hakuin would have just been slaughtering people had they been in rap battle equivalents of zen.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah he'd just send people crying.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. He would have, for sure. So, the other teacher that I know of that really explicitly goes into this idea of silence and noise as a symbolism of the movement from duality to unity, or another way of putting it is the dualistic nature of subject and object, and having that dissolve and merge into the singularity of oneness where object and subject merge. Right? The other author that does that is Swami Lakshmanjoo, who within certain circles, he is a well-known Kashmiri Shiavist who basically dives into Advaita Vedanta, but within a particular lineage, which is Kashmiri Shiavism. He has a great book, which actually goes into these symbols of silence and sound, and there's specific poetry and literature from that lineage that takes the reader into these certain spiritual states by repeatedly talking about silence and noise. The other, I think more surface level but equally as powerful concept, is this idea of be still and know that I am God, which can be seen on a level of the mind. Right? Our minds are filled with chatter, and random thoughts, and vicissitudes of emotion. There's just so much movement there, and you know there's a great teaching of looking upon a lake, and there's this treasure at the bottom of the lake. You can't see the treasure because the distortion of the image is so great with the ripples on the surface, but if you allow the lake to become still where there's no more ripples on the surface, then you can see right through to the very bottom and see that treasure. Of course, this is what the mind does. If we can still the mind sufficiently, we will be able to see through to the core of our essence. It's a great teaching in the use of stillness to know oneself.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah, and it's even... I don't want to say it. It's not even the more practical level, but it's just kind of an idea that I think anyone can use, whether or not you are a follower of a particular like tradition that is Eastern, or Western, or whatever, but this notion that if you're able to still yourself, to still the mind, that's something... It's not even something, but there is a presence that emerges, and it's almost like there's a wisdom there that can come out when the mind is stilled and when we are starting to dissociate ourselves from those thoughts. The way that this is described is that we put ourself into the thoughts. This is very Buddhist. I'm sorry.

Adam Rizvi:
Don't apologize.

Stephan Downes:
But we're always looking for... I said I'm sorry.

Adam Rizvi:
I said don't apologize.

Stephan Downes:
I said I'm sorry. We're always looking for identity. We're looking for who we are, and one of the ways we... Identifying with things is literally that, right? We see a thought. We grasp onto it and be like, "I'm not good enough," or, "I'm great," or whatever the thought is about ourselves or about anything. We are like putting ourselves into that thought saying, "This is who I am for that moment." Right? There's an identity that happens in the moment, and when we are able to still the thoughts, and it's not even that thoughts go away, but when we start training ourselves with even basic meditation to not follow the thoughts, when a thought comes, to just stop. Right? To just let the thought go, and then you do that enough, and you do that for a while, and for some people it happens the first time they ever meditate, and some people it takes them six months of meditating, and who knows? But something happens where all of a sudden you realize, "Oh, wait. That's not me. That thought isn't me." Then you say, "Well, who am I then?" Right? Then there's this whole mystery that opens up of realizing that you're not what everyone says they are, right? Because that's the conventional way, in the West especially, of understanding who we are. The whole Descartes thing, "I think therefor I am." That's the whole... In a lot of ways for us, the foundation of our identity as humans is people who think, as people who have thoughts, and ideas, and hopes, and dreams. If you start to like pull yourself away from them, not as they're bad, but just to realize like, "Oh, you don't have to," there's this wisdom that naturally emerges. And what they're speaking of here when we talk about silence or you were speaking of earlier is a depth of that, that very few people get to where that silence becomes so intense that you truly start to see, in quotes, spiritual knowing or what really going on.

Adam Rizvi:
I really like what you shared, especially that idea of grasping and trying to grasp thoughts, especially thoughts around identity. My story, who I am, where I was born, and my successes and failures, right? What I got from what you were sharing was that it's possible to have thoughts arise in the field of my awareness and still be silent in the sense that there's no grasping there. So, the thoughts will arise, and then they'll dissolve and return to wherever they came from, but in the process of arising and dissolving, there was no movement at all within. There's no movement of the self because there's no grasping. To me, that's silence within sound, which is related to also a well-known line in the Heart Sutra, "Form is not other than formlessness, emptiness, and emptiness is not other than form," which for me, relates to that idea of it's not one or the other. This is the world of paradox. You can be in a place of total silence and stillness, and yet there's all sorts of sound all around you, but there's no movement in the mind.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. This is like one of the most classic new meditator confusion is where people who start meditating think that their thoughts are going to stop, and they're slowly driven insane when they finally realize after like six years of meditating, and someone finally tells them, "Oh, that's not the point." What have I been spending these last years of my life doing? Yeah. Absolutely. The thoughts don't stop.

Adam Rizvi:
If you're a new meditator out there, just keep-

Stephan Downes:
The thoughts aren't going to stop.

Adam Rizvi:
The thoughts aren't going to stop.

Stephan Downes:
Spoiler alert.

Adam Rizvi:
They might slow down a little. I think, in all honesty, I've noticed that I think less having meditated now for so many years, but they haven't stopped.

Stephan Downes:
That's just getting old, Adam.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. Maybe that's true.

Stephan Downes:
It's your brain slowing.

Adam Rizvi:
It's the atrophy of old age.

Stephan Downes:
The neurons. The gaps between the neurons widening.

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, that's so good. Yeah. This book has so much, and on the very off chance that you haven't read this book or you haven't read it all the way, it's filled with many stories that make it engaging. And I think it also speaks to how the brain works. We love narrative. The brain loves narrative. The brain loves stories, and within the package of the story comes these super juicy spiritual teachings that inspire and uplift. I always feel better when I read even a page of two from this, and I feel called to be a better person, and to dive deeper into my spiritual practice.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. It has a certain... We've used the word inspirational quality, but there's something about this book, and this series, and other books like it that they just have such a purity of content and vision. It's not Baird T. Spalding's journal on whether the masters are real or not, you know. It's just kind of like, "These masters speaking to you, the reader, that this is possible for you as well," which is clearly part of its staying power, and the cover. The cover has like a monastery on it. If you've got the book with you, it's like the Himalayan mountains with this little monastery in a valley, and the sun spot is hitting the monastery, and you're just like, "Wow. I need to be there. I need to be there right now with the silence all around me."

Adam Rizvi:
I'm not sure about you, but I definitely wanted to track down where they went. When I was younger, I was like, "I got to go there. I got to find out where they went."

Stephan Downes:
Absolutely. 100%.

Adam Rizvi:
I've got to find this Temple of Silence place.

Stephan Downes:
Cool. All right. 

Adam Rizvi:
That's great.

Stephan Downes:
Do you have anything else right now? I think we're good.

Adam Rizvi:
Read it.

Stephan Downes:
We're going to go to the after show.

Adam Rizvi:
That's my takeaway. Read the book. It's amazing.

Stephan Downes:
Yes. Read the book. Read the book, everybody. Read the whole series.

Adam Rizvi:
Yeah. The whole series.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. He goes pretty deep. We were talking about one book, but the teachings as you read them get progressively deeper, quote/unquote. I mean, I feel like they do, where at the beginning it's like, "Oh, the bird landed and he was looking for me." At the end, it's like you know he starts talking about the masters interacting with people's energies, and reflecting, and things like that. Do a actual manipulation of people's energy, and it's fascinating.

Adam Rizvi:
I'm going to whet your appetite for those who haven't read all the books. Okay. At the very beginning of the book, he has a partial listing of some of the contents of the six volumes. Let me just read a couple of the chapter headings.

Stephan Downes:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Adam Rizvi:
Okay. In the first volume. Volume one. There's a chapter called Walking on Water, A Visit to the Healing Temple, The Snowmen of the Himalayas. In the subsequent volumes, check this out, Jesus Discusses the Nature of Hell, The Nature of God.

Stephan Downes:
I mean, the chapter before that is Visit with the Master Jesus.

Adam Rizvi:
Visit with the Master Jesus, The Mystery of Thought Vibrations. The next volume, The Creation of the Planets and the Worlds, Explaining the Mystery of Levitation. That was an awesome chapter. That just gives you a little bit of the taste of some of the wild, amazing, and inspiring stories of Mr. Spalding and his masters.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. In looking at these, I mean, just the first three books that are the stories, and then the fourth through sixth have more modern topics or more topics that are based around teaching and not just stories.

Adam Rizvi:
As we said before, we have a lovely website called LetterstotheSky.com. Check it out. We have a Discord channel. We have an email address, I think. What else do we have, Stephan?

Stephan Downes:
Some say we have a Patreon.

Adam Rizvi:
Oh, that's right. We also have that as well.

Stephan Downes:
So I have heard.

Adam Rizvi:
If there's a book you want us to cover, shoot us a note on our website and let us know why. We would love to start covering books that you want us to cover.

Stephan Downes:
Yeah. All right, Adam. Well, on to the after show.

Adam Rizvi:
On to the after show.

Stephan Downes:
The after show and other books.

Adam Rizvi:
And other books.

Stephan Downes:
All right, my friend.

Adam Rizvi:
All right.