Leading From the Deep by Diego Ugalde - Psychedelics and Spirituality

Diego Ugalde - Leadership From the Deep - Conversation About Psychedelics and Spirituality

In this episode, Adam and Steven welcome former Navy SEAL and renowned coach Diego Ugalde as their special guest. Diego shares his transformative journey from being a Navy SEAL to becoming a leadership coach who specializes in spiritual and psychedelic healing. The discussion delves into Diego's experiences with Ibogaine, his book 'Leading from the Deep,' and the profound insights he has gained through elevated states of consciousness. They explore themes of fear, spiritual bypassing, the power of psychedelics in mental health and self-awareness, and the similarities between psychedelic and meditative awakening. Diego also talks about his work with The Trident Approach and Warriorside, initiatives dedicated to helping veterans and civilians connect and heal through storytelling and psychedelic experiences.

The Trident Approach: https://thetridentapproach.com/

00:00 Hi Adam. Hi Stephan.
00:40 Introducing Diego Ugalde
01:52 Diego's Background and Achievements
04:39 Discussing Diego's Book and Psychedelic Healing
05:28 Diving into Ibogaine Experience
11:20 The Healing Power of Psychedelics
18:57 Spiritual Bypassing and Psychedelics
28:36 Facing Fear and Divine Guidance
34:26 Striving for Acceptance
35:25 The Cost of Fearlessness
36:29 Awareness and Muscle Memory
37:26 Balancing Fear and Combat
38:45 Insights from a True Story
43:22 Flow State vs. Dissociative State
45:31 Meditation and Psychedelics
59:36 The Core Truth of Love
01:03:17 Upcoming Projects and Final Thoughts

Transcript

0:00

Uh huh.

Adam: 0:11

Hello, Adam. Steven Downs. Uh, how are you doing? Uh, well, I feel like I don't hear your voice often enough, um, but today is a delight because I get two of my spirit brothers. It's a two way street. Hey, Hey, it takes two to tango. That's true. That's true. What about all those missed texts and missed calls? Huh? Okay. Anyway. So today we have, okay. So today, today we have a great episode guys. We are very, very fortunate to have our, uh, second guest ever. Um, his name is Diego Ugalde and he is a former. You'll hear a lot about his life. And he is a former Navy SEAL, now coach, and who specializes in not only leadership coaching and training, but also helping veterans, especially his fellow Navy SEALs through psychedelic Healing experiences, which we are going to talk all about the day So the name of the game on this episode is we're talking about spirituality and psychedelics And focusing on diego's great new book And I will let um adam do a little little bit more info Yeah, I just want to share a proper bio here. Diego's an amazing person just on a personal level um Diego was at my wedding. He is a brother from another mother. He is one of the most kind hearted, powerful veterans that I have ever known. But just to do him justice, I want to read this bio. Diego Ugalde A distinguished author and Navy SEAL veteran with over 15 years of service alongside America's elite warriors is a founder of the Trident Approach. Diego has dedicated his post military life to coaching executives, mental health clinicians, athletes, and veterans, guiding them toward deeper self awareness, authentic connection, and transformative leadership. Also, as the creator of WarriorSide, he's expanding his mission to reconnect America through the power of storytelling, by having veterans take the stage to tell their deepest transformative lived experiences in an effort to connect with community. Diego's unique blend of military experience and personal growth through elevated states of consciousness continues to inspire countless people to live and lead with purpose and resilience. I can attest to all of that. Diego, you are a gift to humanity. Um, with all that said, is there anything you want to say? Welcome. Welcome Diego.

Diego: 2:57

Well, thanks for, we've been talking about this, I think for, since the wedding, I think, and I'm so happy to be here, Adam, absolutely. Brother from another mother. In fact, uh, Steven and I were arguing about who is your best friend. Remember he was walking by our table. We were like, Hey, whoever he looks at first is like the one he loves the most. And he looked at me first. I was like, see, what's up, dude.

Adam: 3:22

And then he said, Hey, Steven, you ever heard of a C one 30 specter? And I said, I actually, you're his best friend. You're his best friend. No question.

Gallery View & Screen Share: 3:37

That's funny.

Adam: 3:39

Well, we're glad to have you, Diego. Um, so most of our listeners, actually, I don't know too much about our listeners, but I do know that our, our podcast is about spirituality in particular. Um, it's about spiritual visionaries, people who in the past have broken barriers, people who have, uh, um, gone beyond the confines of, of traditional spirituality. We have a lot of mavericks that we talk about. Uh, and you, sir, are an absolute maverick. You, you have dived into psychedelics, recognized its healing potential, but you've also clearly bridged, uh, psychedelics with the spiritual journey. And so maybe just to start off, I. I want to just highlight one particular story that really, really got me, um, interested in that bridge that you talk about. And first of all, before we go into Diego's book for all those watching and listening, it's called leading from the deep. This is how it looks like. Uh, I'm holding it up for those watching the video leading from the deep. It's fantastic. This is the hard cover. I also want to say Diego recorded himself, uh, reading this book. I highly, highly recommend the audible version of it. Uh, Diego has a fantastic reading voice. And there are many times in particular, one that I'm going to ask you to talk about Diego, where you can hear his voice crack from the emotion of the awakening and healing that that happened. And I've never really heard an author wear his voice on his sleeve. So to speak, I was in that moment with you and in particular, I want you to talk a little bit about. Heaven and hell is within your Ibogaine experience, where you first, uh, encountered ego. And we're kind of going in the deep end right now, but Diego's Yeah, we're just jumping right in. Jumping right in. Okay. What was that like for you? And maybe you can tell us why you decided to do that in the first place. Maybe some I'm going to request a little bit of context first, too, of what Ibogaine is. for those who haven't read the book and what's going on here. Diego, why don't you say a little bit about it? Give us a little context from your own, your own words.

Diego: 6:06

It's so funny. I used to be in a band and one day I was, I was the lead singer. I didn't play any instruments and I, and I created the set list one day and I, one day I started off with Police so lonely and when the band showed up and they saw the setlist, they all freaked out. They're like, dude, give us a chance to warm up, bro. Like, it's like a super hard song, you know, like it wasn't even on my radar. And, uh, and, and Adam's question just like ran out to me. Like, there's no warming up, dude. We're going to Ibogaine like right now. Let's go. Okay.

Gallery View & Screen Share: 6:40

Let's go. We're getting serious.

Diego: 6:42

All right. Uh, yeah. So Ibogaine is like a derivative from, from, from the iboga plant, which comes from central Western Africa, like Gabon and the Bwiti people, B W I T I people from that region use it as kind of like a coming of age medicine for, um, the boys and girls who are coming into adulthood. And it's a, it's, Some people call it the grandfather. There's a couple of other grandfathers in the space of psychedelics, but this is one of them. And, uh, you know, there's different medicines have different state, uh, you know, time periods with Ibogaine is one of the longer ones that I'm aware of. So 12 to 16 hours is the journey in this medicine is just, it's called, uh, or Neurogen, which is like a, Very cool word for me, which is basically it incites like a dreamlike state. So you're, you are in a dreamlike state. And at the same time, you're fully aware that there are people in the room, you know, doctors are there it's, it's also the most, as far as I'm aware of the most dangerous psychedelic there is. But as long as you do like a cardiac stress test and you pass that and you're not on any opiates, you're not. You know, you don't have a ton of alcohol in your system. It's it's totally safe, especially compared to all the other medicine we have available to us to our local pharmacies and all that. But, um, yeah, it's a very, very, very powerful medicine. And, uh, one of the big ones, one of the heavyweights for sure. And And it does have heart. Um, but sometimes it doesn't feel like that.

Adam: 8:31

Yeah. Yeah. When you say it has heart, you mean there's, um, like there, there can be a soft side to the experience, but you're also saying it's, it can be harsh.

Diego: 8:40

Yeah. So I have, uh, the, the first time I did the medicine, I had a friend who was going through with me. I w I was taking Ibogaine because I didn't, I had so many, I didn't even have questions about what was going on. I just felt lost. Um, I just felt like I wasn't doing the best that I could. There was, there was more that I could do more than I could know. I didn't, I honestly, I didn't really know what I was doing there, but I knew that I felt like I needed some kind of help somehow, and then I had a friend that I was going with going through with, and during like our initial talking circle, he said, Hey, just so you guys know, I'm not, I'm not in trouble or anything, but, uh, you know, my, my 18 year old son just died from cancer. His name is Sean, and I gotta be honest with you, I don't necessarily see any real reason to go on living. Um, you know, I don't have any plans, I don't have any intentions to kill myself, but life is fairly useless to me these days. So I was going through my journey later on that evening and just getting, like, celestially thrashed. And, uh, uh, one of those speed bags and a puncher, like, that's, that's not enough. It was more than that, it was, like, these fiery whippings. From all that is for 16 hours of getting my ass kicked every once in a while. I went, I was telling you, you also can be aware of what's going on in the room. I, I, from time to time I thought about Jim and I was like, Oh my God, this poor guy has no business, you know, experiencing, you know, what all this stuff is. And the next day, you know, when I was able to finally. Manage the strength to stand up and walk around. I ran into Jim and I was like, dude, how are you doing, man? He's like, amazing. And I said, what? And he's like, dude, Ibogaine held me all night. It showed me where Sean is. He's okay. I'm okay. Literally everything was fine. And I was like, fuck you, dude.

Gallery View & Screen Share: 10:47

16 hours going through like the gauntlet of hell. He said like Ibogaine literally held me all

Diego: 10:59

night. So it was just like, it was such a cool thing to see, like the, just the, the heart that, that Ibogaine is capable of showing those who really need it. Apparently it didn't think I needed much tender loving care.

Adam: 11:20

Wow, that's, that's, so I'm curious, do you, why do you think, you spoke to this in the book several times, what have you witnessed in terms of the, uh, positive healing effects of psychedelics? Why do veterans turn to psychedelics?

Diego: 11:40

Nothing else works. Not really. Well, that was a, that was a broad statement. Partially true, but our current approach to mental health, whether it's veterans or traffic girls or whatever it is, abused boys, is just broken. It's the best that our approach is capable of. But the interesting thing is that you could be in psychedelic space and there are mental health clinicians that, that go into, they'll run through the MDMA assisted treatment. Therapy course in New York through maps, and I had, and there were a bunch of mental health clinicians there, and they all said in one way or the other throughout the course of the week of training, I had to come to finally admit to myself. That what I'm doing isn't working. It's not helping people. So there are those who actually know, and there are those who are afraid of admitting that all the time they spent in school, all the work that they're doing, all that thousands of hours that they've got, you know, they're just afraid that it's not actually doing what they're, what they wish it would do, but there are other people who will be able to, who are able to reach past that and come to an honest assessment of, listen, this isn't working. So. The reason why I said it works, it doesn't always work, and psychedelics are not for everybody. We're, we're trying to fix the thinking mind, thinking mind. In other words, so there's two types of suffering. There's physical suffering and there's mental suffering. All the mental suffering comes from the thinking mind. All of it does. And so, as far as I can tell. So, you know, Einstein has that saying, we can't fix the problem with the same line of thinking that we use to create the problem in the first place. There has to be a way, if the thinking mind is the problem itself, if you want to call it a problem, you don't, I just did, I'm the one to call it a problem. If the thinking mind is considered to be the problem, then there has to be a way to transcend the thinking mind in order to help. So it's not necessarily psychedelics per se, the whole idea is elevated states of consciousness. Psychedelics are a way, they're a powerful way. But they're not the only way meditation is there. You don't need psychedelics at all. You can, you can do all this. You can learn all this. You can come to understand all of these things and more through meditation, holotropic breathing, which is you breathe a certain way, um, for 30 or 40 minutes and you're gone just like psychedelics and some, some say even deeper. Uh, sensory deprivation tank. Joe Rogan has, uh, uh, one of his podcast episodes where he talks about how he, he went deeper than he's ever done in his whole life in some sensory deprivation tank, even more than psychedelics, near death experiences. Uh, there, there's a lot of ways to, to get, uh, to these places. Uh, Eckhart Tolle, he just got there just from deep, massive, profound suffering. And that's it. And somehow, in his way, he was able to look under the veil and like, oh, wow, you know, there's this whole other thing here. So psychedelics help getting people to elevated states of consciousness. When you get to an elevated state of consciousness, you can see. that the things that you are experiencing through the mind, almost all of it, if it's suffering, almost all of it, there's no need. There's lessons, there are things to learn and gain and grow and strengthen and develop from, but there's nothing that requires you to suffer to the end. The suffering may be required for a moment so that it catalyzes you through transcendence, but nothing more kind of thing. That's why psychedelics are so powerful. That's why they work when they do. This is a long answer, but I will say that there is a caveat to that. Psychedelics can show, and they're also medicine. So in a way they give you crutches to walk with so that you're dealing, so you're handling these issues in a better way. But in the end. over time, whether it's one month or three months, these medicines start to fade, fade, fade, and all of a sudden the crutches are gone. So if you haven't done any work to help balance your state of being with this new logical awareness that you can, you can be just as messed up as you were when you started, you'd be like, Hey, this didn't actually work. What happened? It's like, they're there to help, but you have to do all this work to build up all the supporting muscles and bone structure around this whole thing. So that when the medicine does fade, you are in a much more powerful state.

Adam: 16:54

That's amazing. Thank you. And Stephen, jump in if you, if you want to. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, that's kind of where I wanted to go. You kind of went with it. So my, my, my experience reading the book and listening to the book, Diego, was that there were a lot of times when I recognized like you were, you were pointing out deep truths that I've also found through meditation. And, and a lot of the experiences that you've described are similar to experiences that I've had in meditation. And, um, Every time I was listening, I was kind of like, okay, where's he going to go from here? Where's he going to take it? Like, does he go, does he keep going? And you kept going and it was, it was so, it was so beautiful. And so one of those things you ended up on, which you just kind of ended up on is, is, um, spiritual bypassing and how, you know, in the, in the meditative world, uh, you know, cause I've, I've, I think I've, It's messed around with psychedelics. Never like this. I've never, I did like salvia when I was in college or something and it was a horrific experience. So I didn't like it at all, but I've never, I've never done any deep like intentional psychedelic work. Um, this book, I will say definitely may be interested and finding out more for sure. But with spiritual bypassing, so like, just for those who are listening, maybe you don't know what that is. It's basically, if I could say it in one sentence, it's thinking you're somewhere you're not. So it's thinking that you are more awakened in a higher state of consciousness than maybe you really are. There's several kind of classic signs of. spiritual bypass, which are the first, most, one I'm most familiar with myself is saying, all these people aren't as high, aren't as in high estate as me. What's wrong with these people? That's a classic, uh, spiritual bypass moment. And so anyway, so this is a very common, extremely common, maybe, maybe the most common experience for anybody who's meditated or practiced a long time. And, um, You could write many, many books about it, but in terms of psychedelics, you talked about it in your book as well. And I'm curious if you could, well, I'm not curious, I'd like you to speak a little bit more about how it manifests in the psychedelic world. Um, because there's a lot of similarities, I think.

Diego: 19:11

I, I was connected with somebody who had actually reached Samadhi and she and I were talking, she hadn't reached it, I think back in like 2016. So that was whatever, a long time ago based off of the car, when this conversation happened and she was like, you know, it's, I'm interested to hear more and more about this psychedelic thing because I think you might be missing something that's just not attainable unless you go into meditation. And so it was really cool. She and I had really, really, really great conversations about it. But yeah, the, one of the concerns that she had because she was on a, she didn't have any real personal experience with psychedelics, I think was a really valid one. And what that is, is psychedelics can launch you like almost like in an instant to some place, especially for those who don't have a spiritual practice, practice or mindfulness practice or anything, to this whole brand new state of awareness. So the, the analogy that I use, and it's temporary, you know, you work and earn your way there through meditation. It's slower when you get there. When you're there, the sense that I get is you're really there and, and psychedelics, you're like, Hmm, see, check this out. This is everything. And all of a sudden you're gone again. And they're like, oh, wow, I saw this. Uh, so the analogy that I have is the, is um, the one of Leif Erikson, where, you know, Leif Erikson, we think is the first European to discover North America. So you can imagine on his first night of leaving with all the rest of the Vikings from Norway, sailing west across the Atlantic, like the first night of his voyage, a psychedelic comes and whisks him to sleep. Individually, instantly away to Newfoundland and sets them down on the ground in Canada. And says, Leif, look around. This is Canada. See the trees and the oceans and the deer trails and the people. Here, bend down, put the dirt in your hands and rub it around. You see, this is Canada. You got it. All right, cool. And then in an instant, it brings them right back to the ship. And I think that that's what psychedelics do because it's still up to Leif to manage his crew, to maintain his equipment, to navigate the seas, to get to Canada. But this time he knows where he's going. He's seen it. He was there. There's a lot of people I think in the, and I, I really do think that this is just a normal function of. Any kind of spiritual growth on spiritual bypass is to have the illusion that you're still in Canada when you're not So life is stand up in this ship and just being like, hey guys, we made it to Canada. Whoo. Check everything out I was like, what are you talking about? There's nothing but ocean everywhere and I think there's a couple of reasons for that one is that the the experience is so can be so powerful and That people don't know how else to respond. Like, this is the realest thing. This is still a cure. I have this life transformational experience. You, no one can tell me any different because I'm the one who's experiencing this thing. And that may totally be true. But like I was saying before, every medicine kind of stays in the system for different periods. But once that medicine fades to like such a low level, there won't be any question that they're no longer in Canada. For They're like, Whoa, what the heck happened? And this is what we're talking about before about building the muscles so that you kind of stay there as long as possible. Um, the other thing is that I find a lot, I don't really know how effective psychedelics are. This is why I kind of had that. hesitation when I said, Oh, because they work. It was like, no, I'm not sure. And the reason why is there are a lot of people who turn to psychedelics because they don't know what else to do. Literally everything else failed. And if they admit to themselves that even this, this whole trans transformation, this whole thing, if that doesn't work, then there's literally nothing else for them to work. And everything is failed and they're not going to make it. So I think that there's a percentage of people who go through the psychedelic experience and for all the reasons lie to themselves and other people to how powerful these things are because they fucking need it to work. So I'd be really, really curious to see, because I used to, when I got into the space to begin with, they were like, dude, you do this one time, you're That's it, you're good to go, forever. And I haven't really experienced that, however, for the people who do the work once the medicine is over. I see launch people make these huge launches that I haven't in other arenas.

Adam: 24:27

Do you talk about, um, Doing the work and I I I think that's Where the meat of the conversation is in terms of where the spirituality of psychedelic work is Uh, I'd love for you to share What do you mean by the work? And, uh, is that the same thing as, as what you talk about in the book, integrating the experience or integration? Could you speak to those two things?

Diego: 24:52

Yes, the same thing. When someone has these powerful transformative experiences in the medicine, their logical awareness goes through some sort of wormhole. It has this thing almost, you know, you could say something like, just be when you're in the medicine, you know, you know what it is to simply be. And then you come out of the medicine and the medicine is gone. And then I'm like, I am just going to be, and it's, and it's not there, you know, you don't have the crutches anymore. So it's not as easy. And some people will be like, well, this is broken. This doesn't work. Or, I guess I had it, but I don't have it anymore. And so they just leave it alone. And then there are other people who choose to do the work. It's what there was something there. I know it was there and now I have to spend as long as it takes to get from where I am now, because I'm not able to experience that to where I actually am able to experience that completely absent of the medicine, what do I need to do in my life so that I can actually experience. The simple state of being absent of the medicine. And so meditation is part of the work. Uh, the, the other things are recognizing, you know, a lot of times psychedelics can bring into the awareness habits or whatever it is that somebody might be experiencing that's confining or limiting their life. When you learn those things, you have the opportunity to take those lessons in your day to day life and start to make changes. And implementations so that you're correcting, you're actually doing something about your state of being. So in essence, the end state, there is no end state, but, but the objective of integration and doing the work is to bring your state of being into balance with your logical awareness. For example, it's not supposed to matter to me that somebody said something mean to me on social media. Spiritual bias maps would say it doesn't. At all. Like, everything is fine. I'm totally cool. Like, there's no problems at all. But once you go past spiritual bypass, I'm like, no, no, no, no, that really, really bothered me. Doing the work is like, Oh, how does it, what is it about me? That's contributing to the situation as it is. What is it within me that I need to fix that I need to fix in order for this to genuinely not be a thing for me. And a lot of times, you know, some of these things go back to childhood wounds or fears or whatever. Pushing through those learning, pushing through those things, building the muscle structure around that particular thing. And all of a sudden you look, you read this nasty thing and it's just words. And it doesn't mean anything. Like genuinely doesn't mean anything. You don't have to fake anything. You don't have to, don't have to do anything. You just, it's just, they're just words and they're gone. That's doing the work. And the truth is, I think a lot of these can almost take a lot. It seems to me like a lot of these things can take a lifetime to really, really, really, really understand. It's a lot of work, but worth it.

Adam: 28:31

Yeah, that's beautiful. And that's exactly what I was hoping you would share. It seems like one of the first barriers to really doing the work and getting to that place is something that you talk about over and over again, which is facing fear. And I, I'm very curious. I mean, you feel free to share an experience, uh, where you think it captures that, but there's a way that you describe it that is, first of all, you, you, there's a title of your chapter that I love. It's, you say, fear is the school bell, right? Like it's time to learn. It's time to go to class. I absolutely love that because it redefines fear. Um, but you also have this. way of describing how you face fear. Like you're, you're burying yourself fully. You're totally present. Uh, you're not running away. And it's sort of like a, I feel like the courage that one thinks of when one thinks of a seal. is now redirected, not towards an external enemy, but towards the ability to face fear fully. And you talk a little bit about that. What if we could train our SEALs to be spiritual warriors? I really liked the approach you took. So could you tell us a little bit about how do you face fear in life? Like what's your mindset? How do you approach it?

Diego: 29:55

This is, for me, it's been actually a A relatively recent thing that has come to me over the past couple of months where I, I, I think we've had discussions, Adam, about the limitations of language that are just being, or the ocean, right? When you say the word, do you even know what the, do I even know what those, do I even know what I'm saying when I say ocean? You know, just like, All that is the ocean. It's like, no, I don't. I'm just like, there's the ocean and that's it. So I don't even understand fully a lot of the words that we only have to describe certain things. And I think fear is one of them. There's a fear that exists for good reason. For example, you know, you're standing on the shore with your surfboard. And there's perfect waves going off, but there's like a pool of like 15 great white sharks, just swimming in circles right around where you're about to go in. There's a fear that it'd be like, it would literally be stupid for me to go. Who knows if they're hungry enough, but who wants to find out? You know what I mean? Maybe I shouldn't go in because if I do, I could get my face ripped off. So I'm not going to do that. There's a fear there that is there to ensure our longevity or whatever it is. Um, that actually mechanism didn't work very well for me in my life. Mine was kind of broken and defunct, but whatever. I did stuff all the time that didn't make any sense, but I also lumped in all kinds of other things. With that word fear that we're basically confining me, but that we're different. And a way that I can use to explain that is, you know, we just did a corporate event where we were going to put all of these people of the full spectrum of physical fitness levels through a Navy seal. Team building event where people are going to have to do pushups and stuff like this. And so the, the anxiety and the level of the energy in the room was just like, you could just, you almost had to like cut through the room. It was just like, there was all this stuff. And I was like, in our culture, we, we, we classify this as being fear. Like you're afraid of what's about to happen. And I don't think that's the case at all. I don't think it's fear at all. And the reason why is just pay attention to how you feel right now. And then when we're done, we're going to come back and I want you to pay attention to how you feel now that you've gone through it, there's a feeling that's in your chest and your stomach that might feel tightness or anxiety or whatever, but it's not the same as you feel when you're afraid. And the more, I think people get used to that feeling and understanding that feeling and then pushing through it and then going on, going ahead with that. And then on the other side, they feel more powerful. They feel stronger. They feel lighter. They feel wiser. They feel it's not fear. It's divine guidance. Why this matters is because I think when people, it's so easy to be like, I'm not doing that. I'm afraid. Oh, of course. Who would want to do something they're afraid of? It's a lot harder. I'm not doing that. That's divine guidance. You sure you don't want to do that? That pain, that tension, that tightness or whatever. It's Is the toll that the toll amount that you've got up that you've got to pay In order to get the gift of what the gods are trying to give you So I, it would, in my world, it would be so cool if we were no longer allowed to call that fear anymore. Call it what it is, just in, in my mind, right? What it is in my mind is divine guidance, which is a complete and total shift away from everything. Like you don't have to worry about, I'm not going to die because of this. I'm going to become stronger because of this. This, this is an opportunity for, this is a, this is a gift instead of something I should avoid. So that's one thing. What I did pretty much my whole life before I, I found any elevated states of consciousness, or I lumped it all in with fear and I just pretended like it didn't exist. And for all kinds of reasons, one, I wanted to find value as a human. Like I wanted some, you know, some sort of acceptance in the tribe, which is like one of the fundamental core elements of. Um, living as a human, you know, I didn't feel like I got that a lot. So I was like, well, what do I need to do to stand out? So that somebody in the tribe accepts me. So I'm just gonna, I'm going to do all the dumb shit. I'm gonna do all the crazy stuff. And that's going to be my value to the tribe. Like, Oh, Diego America, long time ago in the eighties, there was like that, that food commercial. Like Mikey likes it. Like everybody just gave Mikey everything to eat. Cause they knew he was going to eat it. Like I would do that with all the dangerous stuff. So it's like, yeah, I'll do it. I just did it. And, um, yeah, this is. It wasn't for any other reason other than like, that's how, like fear of broken bones and all the stuff was nothing compared to the fear of not being accepted. So I did all that stuff. And when I did that with zero awareness of my mind, I was hurting myself. I was, I was physically hurting myself because I'm not didn't realize this on any logical or level of awareness or anything at the time, but I was, I wasn't loving myself. I was just like, literally, my body doesn't matter. So, I'm going to do this. And so my body's like, yo, what are you, what are you doing? Uh, you know, and my legs and my back were like, what are you doing to us? I didn't see it like that. Of course, back then, but I see, I see it for what it is now. And, uh, just like awareness, lack of understanding so many things, but I, I'm not alone in that. I think there's a lot of people in the community who are just. There's no excuses and nothing matters. You just get the job done regardless of what it takes, you know, how many people have run into a hail of gunfire to do whatever it is they need to do. And it's not immediate out the other side of this. Hey, that's just the way it is. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it, but it's a shutting down most of the time. I can go on and on about muscle memory and all these things, but yeah, yeah.

Adam: 37:05

Do you think there's a way? So, I mean, just that last thing you said, I, it's a lot of ways, a lot of Places I could go from here. But the last thing you said, you know, you do it because you have to get, to get the mission done. And there's, I'm sure there's a bit of an attitude of like, hell yeah, I'll do it. Like let's, let's get in there. Right. Let's, let's get into the fight. Is, do you think that there is a way for those same people who are meeting The standards of the seals in terms of, you know, let's say their combat capabilities, for lack of a better, their attitudes, is there a way for them to go into those situations and still be open to fear and still do it in a balanced way? Or do you think those situations are so intense that unless you are enlightened, enlightened, for lack of a better word, you're going to shut down and block stuff out.

Diego: 37:59

I was watching a movie recently. It's a true story about But it, but it's about like, like one of the very first things that went on, uh, in Afghanistan, right, almost immediately after September 11th, where like a couple of green berets inserted into the country. And. You know, it was the, it was the wild west out there. Like they were all fighting on horseback and all this stuff. But I watched the portrayal that they had of the Taliban and how, for example, Americans needed to live in the Taliban didn't care whether or not they lived or died. And I remember, I think it was Osama bin Laden said, well, that's the difference between America, the Americans, the Americans want to live. And we don't care if we die or not, but that movie did a really good job. And showing that and I remember thinking back at the time when I was a seal like these guys are monsters. They're insane. They're just And then when I watched the movie just now i'm like they're the ones who get it They get it it doesn't matter, um, it's so funny, you know how And I'm grateful for being able to change, you know, cause I wasn't that way at all. And in other words, when I say they get it, in my opinion, when people who deeply, deeply understand, or maybe not even deeply understand, but understand more than we generally do in our, it seems to me, this is not our only go around that we continue, you know, what exists always exists. You cannot ever unexist. And the point is not to. Behave in ways in which are not aligned with yourself. The point is to do as, to be as you are, no matter what, or it can be, it can be the point, but in my career, I cannot. I couldn't even begin to even try to, to count and tell you how many times my mind just shut off and I was, I was just about to get into the final point before about muscle memory. It's like a, it's like a place to strive for in the SEAL teams muscle memory where you do something so often in the same way every single time that you can literally complete a whole entire house when almost without thinking. It's just like. How did I get here? Sort of thing, but you performed on a high level. I think it's that checking out that contributes to the pain that so much of the pain and trauma that that seals experience throughout the course. So they're like shooting people or whatever it is, doing anything negative against anybody, including the self and just shutting down that when you learn, if you learn the same thing I did, I did. I wouldn't say that you would, but What I learned was the important thing is to, like I said before, just allow yourself to be as you are, and you can also, what comes to mind is like the samurai wars back in the day where literally everything that they were doing, every movement wasn't shutting down. It was a, it was a opening. Of the mind opening of the entire state of beings when they were in a sword fight They could be engaged in the sword fight and know everything that was going on around them also um, there's a book the book of the five rings where um, Forget his name, but it's like the greatest swordsman in the history of japan Where he's talking about, you're not reacting to somebody swinging their sword down, it's just you are in a state of being with this person and you are moving with what's happening, you're not reacting to it, kind of thing. And in that way, everything is open. And this whole idea of like, I need to survive my way through here. Cause otherwise I'm going to die. Isn't even, that's not, it's not even there. It's not even part of the conversation. I am just being it's a whole other way. Yes. I think it's possible. Yes. I think if our military would go through that kind of training, um, that, you know, the suicides and the mental health and the VA and all that stuff, those numbers were just like, but it's not for everybody. Uh, I've met some people for sure. I don't care what I tell them. I don't want to hear anything about, I don't want to hear anything about this. You can't arm wrestle them into this state of being.

Adam: 43:03

Yeah, of course.

Diego: 43:04

Yeah, um, but for those that are ready, man, there's so much good that could be done.

Adam: 43:13

It sounds like, um, the difference between, A dissociative state, which happens with trauma, right? Versus being in a flow state, which is full peak performance, full awareness, you're totally grounded. Uh, at the same time, there's no you, there's no separate self, there's just the flow of the moment. That's what, um, a lot of people describe the flow state as being. Yeah. That's that's it sounds like that's the distinction that that you're making.

Diego: 43:47

Yeah, I think I need to learn more about that So like Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi like the father of flow.

Adam: 43:54

Yeah

Diego: 43:56

Who wrote all the book he coined the term and all the things I it seems to me that there's a step because I've been in flow state in the SEAL teams plenty of times especially like During our shooting competitions and all this where the only thing that matters is like what I'm doing But I don't think that I was ever in this expansive Awareness state, you know what I mean? Like I was hyper. Yeah. Yeah Like in my dashboard, I can do everything that was going on on my dashboard But I think that there is a way to even transcend that where it's like you're hyper aware of all that is

Adam: 44:44

Yeah.

Diego: 44:45

Which I don't think is closed state, or at least, that's what I mean, I think I need to, maybe for all I know it is, I just haven't, you know what I mean? I don't know.

Adam: 44:52

Yeah. It seems to be. I feel like, I feel like it's above, it's different. I feel like it's different. Although I, no, no, you know, there's stories of our backgrounds here, like stories of spiritual masters who do things. Like difficult tasks that are completely flawless and perfect in every way. That's not just flow state. They didn't know how to, they didn't know how to do it before they did it. Right. There's no, like, I'm going to repeat this 10, 000 times until it's muscle memory. It's so far, it's not, it's a completely different thing. Uh, at some level, I feel for the, for those masters, you know,

Diego: 45:25

Yeah,

Adam: 45:26

that's mine. That's mine. I don't know.

Diego: 45:27

Beyond my experience.

Adam: 45:29

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, it's so interesting because so much of this is directly, I mean, it's a direct correlate to the spiritual path. And I, um, you know, I, before reading your book, I wasn't, I wasn't really definitely not against psychedelics in terms of like, Uh, don't do them, but I definitely had no interest in them just because I felt, you know, I felt like my path has been, um, really rounded and, and, um, and thorough in a lot of ways, but, uh, it, I just, it's so amazing. I, you, you speak about it so well. Well from and it's everything you're talking about, you know spiritual bypassing I can't tell you how many times I spent a long time Thinking I was somewhere else then I wasn't than I wasn't like how many times that has happened I mean Adam and I have talked about you know, what in our earlier episodes I had this we had this kind of running joke where I would ask Adam. Hey does enlightenment exist? And we have this whole running joke about it because we finally decided that like enlightenment doesn't exist because there's nobody to be enlightened. There's really nobody there to be enlightened. And these are all things that you've, you've talked about in your book and it's in different ways in different languages. Uh, but there's, it's so, it's so cool. And, and the book is so well, Uh, it just communicates that you communicate it so well that I found everything you were saying. I thought absolutely this is exactly, I mean, I don't know how long I've been, I mean, I've been meditating for a long time now. My voice is not coming through.

Gallery View & Screen Share: 47:12

I hear you fine.

Adam: 47:13

Okay, cool. Levels look weird. Uh, great. Ignore that then. Uh, um, you know, very long time. And I have had, I mean, I've had experiences that would be considered psychedelic just from meditating. Um, but all of the same truths are present. There's nothing Nothing I heard you say was any different other than that in one situation, you know, I might have been meditating for seven years before I had some a crazy trippy experience meditating. Um, whereas a psychedelics, you could then, you know, Take the medicine and then be gone. That's the difference, you know, and then I can see that when you're doing psychedelics, if you come, especially like seals, right, they're not necessarily, they don't have a background in meditating. You know, someone who's meditated for a long time, takes like it takes the medicine, they come back, they continue to practice because the practice is the ground. But I can see it being very huge struggle for people who are for like veterans or anybody doesn't have to be a veteran, but someone who's, you know, doesn't have the ground and practice to then be blasted into outer space and to come back to exactly who they were beforehand in terms of practices, in terms of habits. I can see that being very difficult.

Diego: 48:38

Yeah. I, you, you might've noticed me laughing when you were talking. Because you were talking about the conversation that you and Adam were having about enlightenment. I was laughing because Adam and I also had a conversation about that. He came out. He came out to us with a trident approach to Lake Tower. And uh, so we had this long drive because we drove there. So we had this long drive back. Do you remember this conversation, Adam?

Adam: 49:07

Yeah, it was a great drive.

Diego: 49:08

Do you remember what we settled on? I don't know. Shut the fuck up and do the dishes.

Gallery View & Screen Share: 49:15

Oh, yeah. I remember that. Yes, yes. We were trying to, what is it? What is it? What is it? It's like you just need to shut the fuck up and do the dishes, man. That's it.

Adam: 49:27

That's exactly right. Yeah. It's exactly right. Yeah.

Diego: 49:31

That's a good conversation. It took us like four hours to get there it was like

Adam: 49:39

Yeah I'm guessing i'm gonna guess from the shut the fuck up and just do the dishes that Uh, even though I wasn't there. I mean, that's kind of what I At this point in my life and the experiences that I've had that I've come back to is I have, when I'm really honest with myself, I have no idea where I'm at or where I'm not at. I have no idea. And I don't need to know. I just need to do the dishes like none, none of that. And when I reflect back on my most powerful. Profound spiritual experiences. None of them had any trigger that I could identify. None of them had any sort of like, Oh, if I do this, this, like I could, can't repeat it. Um, and if I hold on to it, when I hold on to it, it becomes static. And that's when that's, that causes pain. You just have to let go and just do the dishes. And that's, so I'm guessing that I'm guessing that that's where, uh, you part of the conversation. Well, the thing is

Diego: 50:36

both Adam and I are teachers and it's, We're trying to figure out how to Is Adam really

Adam: 50:43

a teacher?

Diego: 50:44

Oh gosh,

Adam: 50:47

yes, the answer to me is I pretend, I pretend to be. I think we're all, we all pretend.

Diego: 50:54

Not pretending to me, but uh, what it, what, where the such, where the, you know, not talking thing came from is that I don't know, and there's no way to know. So what am I to teach? You know, who, who am I to teach? As if I know, and work needs to be done. So help out around the house, make it happen. You know, anyway, um, But that was cool. I was happy to bring that up, but and then to to your question about meditation verse psychedelics There I can't remember if this made it into the book or not but there was a really cool story where they were talking to this Buddhist monk about Psychedelics and so they gave him a Acid.

Adam: 51:48

Yeah.

Diego: 51:48

You put that. Okay. Tell it anyway.

Adam: 51:50

Tell it anyway. Yeah. That's a great.

Diego: 51:53

So he goes, uh, like, what'd you think, man? And he's like, well, with psychedelics, I could see God and like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But with meditation, I know that I am God and they're like, oh, fuck, you know? And the, the way that I think about that is I've never experienced this, but in, in my imagination. I can imagine like there's like a Hollywood party with a bunch of screen actors hanging out and just being like, Oh, you're awesome. Like, Oh yeah, you're awesome too. And we're all awesome. And all of a sudden the door opens and there's like a stage actor that walks in and they're like, Oh, okay. Just be quiet. The one has entered the building kind of thing. Like the real serious one of the, I don't know if this is true. This is something that I imagined, but I feel the same about like meditation and psychedelics. It's like the people who get to a psychedelic state through meditation, or in other words, 10, 40 years of meditation, whereas other people like myself experience these states like in an instant in psychedelics, like there is a difference. There's just, there's just no, there's just no way around it. I can stumble into these experiences, psychedelically speaking, but you cannot stumble into these experiences. With meditation. You have to earn it. You know what I mean? Like you have to earn it. I, I think I could never know, but, but I think that I have experienced like the apex of a psychedelic state a few times on ayahuasca or in other words, like I felt like I was like in, in the awareness of heaven where I did see it out there where I was in the room or whatever. And while I was there, I felt like I wasn't close enough, but it was still there. Out there, kind of, and it was very, very, very clear to me that there was much closer for me to experience, but I kind of tapped out. I just, I, I pegged out in Ayahuasca. This is like, this is all we got for you, dude. I'm like, what else do you want? you know, And so I think, and I think this is what that girl was talking about, is like, you, you don't even know being heaven. You know what I mean? Like, you don't even know that. And I'm like, that I can wrap my head around because I can't wrap my head around it. You know, that kind of thing.

Adam: 54:35

Yeah, yeah.

Diego: 54:37

And so, yeah, these days I meditate and I also still do psychedelics for all kinds of reasons. But, um, it's still clear to me that I have more layers to remove to really, really observe myself as I am. It's still out. So much.

Adam: 55:04

I mean, yeah, they're definitely. You know, states of, you, you, your comment about Leif Erikson, I mean, I've, I've experienced that with meditation of being like sent to the end and then you have to, you have to come back and for sure, like, I don't, I mean, I've, the people that I've met that I feel like don't have any layers left are like on half a hand, you know, I can count them on half a hand. Uh, but it's, it's really, it's so interesting because psychedelics. You know, I, I often encourage people when they're meditating to just stick with it, even though it seems like it's not working. If it seems like it's not working, I'm someone who had before I'd even started meditating, I was reading a meditation and I popped out of my body. Like the first time I opened a spiritual book and I, it popped out of my body. And, and then I was like, what the hell is happening? Get back in. Like I, I was too, you know, that was my first experience that didn't necessarily set me up for like, Oh, I must have more of this, anything like that. But, um, After that, I, when I was meditating, you know, I didn't have experiences, I didn't really feel like it was doing anything for months and months. Um, and then I started to actually see how the gradual, like we're talking about in particular shamatha, so like watching the breath, um, how that slowly started to like loosen its grip. And I think it can be really slow, but having a tool like psychedelics that can show you. Um, or most people, cause like you said, obviously it's not for everybody. And some people don't have good experiences and it's, they don't want to continue it. Um, I think it's, it's really wonderful that it's becoming part of our spiritual lexicon because, you know, not everybody has to meditate their entire lives to have a deep and meaningful spiritual life. And there are people who can't, and it's no, for me, it's, You know, if, if you can do it in a, in a structured environment with someone who knows what they're doing, you know, there's like going to therapy with a really good therapist and going to therapy with someone who's really shouldn't be a therapist, like you can have both experiences and the same is definitely going to be true for, I mean, meditation or psychedelics, the same, this is where fraught, it's the spiritual path where it's fraught with, uh, yeah. Brought with danger. And I think it's so wonderful, um, that there is a tool out there that could really help start people down that. And I know a lot of people come to it because they need it, right? You know, the seals, they need it, they need healing. Um, and your descriptions of it were so, I resonated so strongly with them. I still, you know, I, it brought back those moments of my life as well. So that, that healing that happens is. Without having done it myself, there's nothing in it that I would recognize that isn't exactly as real as anything that a meditator would have healed. Um, there's not, yeah, so I, I think it's, I think it's wonderful that we're now talking about this. And I think your book is, um, at the forefront of people talking about it from a spiritual perspective.

Diego: 58:18

Interesting.

Adam: 58:20

Thank you. Adam. Yeah, I, I echo that actually. I think there's, um, having been to a couple of gatherings where psychedelics is talked about. Um, I think there's one very popular angle is psychedelics Psychedelic Assisted Therapy. It's basically psychotherapy, um, where trained therapists guide someone through a psychedelic experience. Um, MAPS is an organization that's really spearheading that. And I think you're speaking to this, Diego. I know there's people that do it. And then there's, there's something else. There's, um, being on the spiritual path, being on a path to recognizing one's self, one's true nature, an awakening to that in a way that's not just about a one off experience, but having it be the ground of daily life. Uh, and with that, it's, it's not just about, you know, the regular experience. It's about peace. It's about love. And you said something I thought was so beautiful because it holds all the truth and wisdom of many spiritual traditions in that one phrase. And you said in one of your awakening, your realizations in psychedelic experience, we said, love is the bloodstream of the universe. I love that. I love it because it's so visceral. Um, and it also speaks to the truth. That's the truth. And you say this multiple times in your book. You're not necessarily, and I, correct me if I'm wrong, you're not necessarily a proponent of everyone has their own truth. You said truth is truth. And independent of what anyone, anyone's opinion is, truth is truth. And I love that because for me, that's what spirituality is. It doesn't matter what your path is, whether it's psychedelics or meditation or, or, you know, chanting or, or, you know, Praying five times a day, like, there are different ways that we can walk towards God, towards heaven, to the divine, you know, sense of self, but there are, there are core truths that exist across the board, and there is a truth, capital T, and I think love is, absolutely is the bloodstream of the universe.

Diego: 1:00:45

I'm gonna tell you something on purpose. I don't know how you're gonna deal with this, but

Adam: 1:00:54

Gettin ready. I

Diego: 1:00:55

got that from the movie Willow. Where in the beginning, Have you ever seen that movie? Yeah!

Adam: 1:01:03

Willow's a classic, man! Long time ago. That was in the 80's

Diego: 1:01:07

I think. Long time ago, yeah. So there was this, uh, this high wizard, and he was, he was one of the, uh, I don't know what the proper term is, but it was a small people in the beginning, but there were the bikinis in the, in the movie. And he was looking for an apprentice to teach. And he was like, magic is the bloodstream of the universe. And that there are so many, there are so many. lines in that movie that that just stuck with me. And I came out of a psychedelic experience being like, love is the bloodstream of the universe. So that, that, that quote was inspired by the movie willow by the high all wind. Yeah. And the reason why I, I felt like it was necessary to say that is because I, I had my own experience in this and there are so many people that I talked to that I'm like, like, how do I love myself? Like, how do I, how do I begin to love myself? How do I, you know, discover, um, how do I start to build? How do I, you know, how do I create? And I'm like, you don't have to. It's all already there. It's just all the static that I, that I have that's in between my awareness and what is so I, you know, I get the biggest room in the universe and I swish all that stuff away. Love is everything. It's everywhere. It's everything. You know, um, I, you know, so yeah, anyway, you don't have to do anything to create it. It's already there. There are maybe many things to do to remove the static, but the love is there and that's all there is. So, yeah, for sure. Funny.

Adam: 1:03:00

Well, it's good to know that it came from a reputable source.

Gallery View & Screen Share: 1:03:05

Certified certified. Well,

Adam: 1:03:11

uh, as we're wrapping up here, I, um, there really is so much we could have. Touched on, uh, that we didn't, but Yeah, I feel like we're scratching the surface. Yeah, it just feels like we're just scratching the surface with, with an hour. Um, I, I like that we came back to the core truth, that it really is all about love, it's and, and that we can come to these conversations. Um, awareness is through many different means, but with all that said, Diego, is there, uh, I want to give you a platform here. Where can people learn more about you if they're interested, um, in, in you, your work, the Trident approach, and, and what do you have coming up? What's your, what's your next big project?

Diego: 1:03:53

So I'm mostly on LinkedIn. Um, Diego Ugalde, I'm sure it's in the right up there somewhere. That's like my social media. Yeah. Platform. I also do some stuff on, on, uh, on Instagram. We're at the trident approach or warrior side is where we do most of our other social media things. Our next big project coming up as we have some. I didn't talk about it very much, but, uh, with the warrior side, we have veterans coming up on stage and telling their most transformative lived experiences, and it's really cool because very little that it has to do with combat, but the good part about it is when people in the audience. They resonate hugely, like, because the whole idea is there's, there's a stigma, there's a separation, and we were talking about mental health, and there's so many times where people are like, listen, I haven't gone through what you've gone through, but like, here's all my stuff, and what they don't understand is we're all the same in that way, because once you get past, like, the clothing of what all this stuff is wearing, It's all the same underneath of just not understanding the mind, being disconnected from the self, not loving the self, not being present. Uh, and so with Warrior's Sight, it gives people an opportunity to understand like, like their shit matters too, like nobody else is worth more than theirs or whatever it is. And then also they get to hear from people who have in their own way transcended and kind of touching back to what you were saying before. It seems to me as the months go by that I learn more deeply and more deeply and more deeply more deeply that everyone is on their own path and it sounds so simple but I keep learning mountains behind what that actually means that nobody it's if somebody doesn't dream They're not broken. There's something else for them. If somebody doesn't resonate with psychedelics, they're not broken. Somebody doesn't know how to pray or meditate. They're not broken. Like there is something, what is it that's there that is yours. That is for you. You don't need to fit or there's all these things, but anyway, that's what I love so much about. Warrior side is, is it's starting to open up. Like maybe I'm literally fine just as I am and there's nothing wrong with me. And there are these things that I can do to help myself, but I'm not busted. I'm not dysfunctional. And, uh, yeah, so we love what we're doing there. Um, we're having a, uh, storytelling night with heroic hearts project, December 5th in Los Angeles. We have our huge thing a little later in March 29th at the house of blues in San Diego, or. Big production lights and limousines and all that stuff, bring your good clothes to that one. Um, yeah, those are the, those are the big thing. I just got back from Peru doing another, uh, ayahuasca ceremony with veterans who were kind of going through it with the heroic hearts project last week. So I was moving around, always having a good time and doing my best to be in alignment with what my path is. So things are super great.

Adam: 1:07:22

That's awesome. Thank you, Diego. Thank you for spending the time with us and sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute honor and pleasure.

Diego: 1:07:32

Yeah. Same. I love you both, man. You guys are good people for sure.

Adam: 1:07:38

All

Gallery View & Screen Share: 1:07:39

right.

Adam: 1:07:42

See you later.