Effortless Presence: Insights on Spiritual Integration and Letting Go - July 3, 2025

Effortless Presence: Insights on Spiritual Integration and Letting Go - July 3, 2025

Join Adam and Stephan in a deep and heartfelt conversation about their recent experiences and revelations after reading 'Effortless Being' by David Bingham. They discuss the profound impact of the book on their spiritual journeys, the process of integrating new insights, and the concept of living life with zero resistance. Through personal anecdotes and philosophical explorations, they touch upon themes like the dissolution of self, trusting the present moment, and the pitfalls of seeking wholeness through the ego. This episode is a rich tapestry of wisdom, vulnerability, and practical advice for anyone on the path of spiritual awakening.

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00:00 Reconnecting After a Long Break

00:31 The Power of Improv and 'Yes, And'

00:45 Life Updates and Inner Work

02:31 The Book That Changed Everything

04:30 Effortless Being and Spiritual Integration

08:18 Trusting the Experience

12:02 Zero Resistance and Trusting the Moment

22:15 The Role of the Mind and Problem-Solving

28:36 Embracing Life's Tasks with Joy

31:10 Embracing the Flow of Life

31:57 The Power of Siestas

35:22 Understanding Pain and Suffering

39:54 The Illusion of Control

47:31 The Search for Wholeness

52:58 The Nature of Definition

53:54 Listener Appreciation and Conclusion

Transcript

Adam: 0:11

Steven Downs. We meet again.

Stephan: 0:14

Hello. It's while.

Adam: 0:18

Yeah. Yeah. Perhaps too long.

Stephan: 0:20

a while to record. I don't know.

Adam: 0:24

Maybe the timing has been perfect.

Stephan: 0:27

I don't know.

Adam: 0:30

Well, what, uh,

Stephan: 0:31

useful.

Adam: 0:32

yeah. Thanks. Thanks for carrying the conversation along.

Stephan: 0:36

Yeah. Yeah, so I did a lot of improv I was younger.

Adam: 0:40

I was told yes. And are the two words in improv. Yes. And

Stephan: 0:44

the joke I just made. Yep.

Adam: 0:46

mm-hmm. And you just said no, effectively.

Stephan: 0:48

Mm-hmm.

Adam: 0:50

But well, tell me, uh, what have you been doing for the past six months?

Stephan: 0:57

Hmm. Not a lot of anything. Um, getting my garden going in spring. working on the house, been a lot of, uh, inner work going on, I suppose. Um, just unfold things unfolding in my inner world, my inner life that just needed time to. Percolate. I mean, it's still, it's still ongoing, it's all still ongoing. It feels very tender and, um, moment by moment. So I've, I've just been resting in that

Adam: 1:34

Yeah. Yeah. I like that moment by moment. That's all there is really, right?

Stephan: 1:39

I, oh my God. So

Adam: 1:51

Yeah. So where'd to go from here?

Stephan: 1:55

where to go from here? Do you

Adam: 2:00

let me,

Stephan: 2:01

why we've been gone? About what? we stopped?

Adam: 2:07

yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, life happens, uh, and we're not doing this for, uh, for anything other than sheer joy and pleasure of having these conversations with each other and sharing, sharing the insights that we have with each other. So sometimes.

Stephan: 2:24

it to, eventually I, I eventually

Adam: 2:25

Um,

Stephan: 2:26

onto the Joe Rogan show. That's why I'm doing this.

Adam: 2:29

oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that's good. Well, I wish you the best of luck.

Stephan: 2:34

thanks.

Adam: 2:36

Um, well, I think one of the things that, um, might explain the prolonged hiatus, um, is in January of this, of this year, uh, we both read a book. But I'll speak for myself. Um, I read a book called Effortless being by David Bingham. Um, and he's a very lovely British man, very unassuming, um, very sweet, who's turned into a, um. Non-dual teacher. I mean, he, he's just being himself, but really he, he's had an experience, an awakening, if you can call it, uh, to his true nature, and ended up writing this tiny booklet. It can't be more than 50 pages if that. It's really quite thin. And I remember, um, reading it while I was on a. Um, a travel work vacation to Paso Robles, which is a small town in Central Coast, California, just north of San Luis Obispo. Uh, my wife was at work and I was in the hotel room reading this little book, and there was a section in there about integration and the idea of spiritual integration is when you have an insight or an awakening. You sort of learn to live with it, integrate it into your daily life, into your sense of identity or more accurately your lack thereof, the, the dissolution of identity. And then learn how, how to live that way, you know? Um, what's the phrase before enlightenment? Um, chop wood, carry water after enlightenment. Chop wood carry water. You just do. I'm sure there's more to it, but like you, you, your life is still life. Uh, but something really profound happened in, in, in that afternoon reading this small book, uh, I was reading this paragraph on integration and he, he, he was saying something about how he was sort of inviting me to listen to a sound and noticing how that sound arises in awareness and. Notice how it's presence in the space of your awareness is effortless. Like I didn't need to do anything to make that sound be, and for that matter, I didn't need to do or effort to make any of life be. Life just was all these objects in the room around me, uh, the light filtering through this, through the window. They just were with no input on my end and, and it was this huge insight, a huge sense of like openness and spaciousness that occurred all at once and I realized I didn't need to do. Anything I didn't need to do life. Life just was absolutely effortless. Absolutely effortless. And in that realization was a total quieting of the mind, just raw stillness for hours. And I sat there in that room watching the sunlight filter through the window. Completely quiet. The mind was absolutely dead silent, and there was no one doing anything in that room. Uh, and I, in the subsequent months, the, the intensity of experience has faded. But the presence of that, um, realization that life, it's very nature is effortless. That's been sitting with me, and that's been something that I've been learning to integrate in my life. As life has gotten busier and I've taken on more roles from the, you know, the directorship of several hospitals and whatnot, I've learned that a lot. If not, I should say, I've learned that all of life, uh, can occur effortlessly, and I don't need to be the one to do any of it. And it, it's, it's taken. A huge amount of stress off my shoulders, um, really because I'm not there anymore and life just seems to happen. Some days it's more obvious than others, but that's been really what's been happening in the last six months for me.

Stephan: 7:19

Cool. Thank you. Yeah, it was, you know Adam, Adam is the one who sent me this book, and, and of, I think he sent it in October or something and then I didn't even, I didn't look at it. I was like, oh, cool. Another book, Adam. It goes through 10 books a week. Like, oh great, I'll get to this eventually. And I just decided to sit down and read it, uh, end of December, early January. And had the same, you know, something very similar happened to me and I remember sending it a page to Adam and then that's what Adam, that's what Adam was experienced, that he had reading the same page. And yeah, I think, I think for me, something very similar, um, I think it. We language it in different ways, and I think that's natural. And, I, I, something I do wanna maybe eventually get into is the Enneagram and, and how the Enneagram kind of

Adam: 8:13

Yeah.

Stephan: 8:14

the way that, uh, certain that people experience this or relate to this. But for me it's just, um. It is just been this, this integration or this relaxing into experience that there's nothing wrong with any experience. Um, and I, I think for a long time I, you know, I. W when you talk, you, Adam, you talk about doing things and getting something like, you know, there's a, there's a, there's someone acting to get something. and I think that's just my way of wording that is that every experience is okay, including the experience of feeling like you're falling apart or feeling like nothing's happening. Um, that just does not run from that. And so I, I've been in my own, my own kind of inner process of. Just realizing that there's nothing wrong with my experience. Um, whatever that experience happens to be, and I've, I've found that the more that I relax into my experience and trust my experience, and I'll clarify not my thoughts about my experience, but the experience itself, which is a very important, a critical distinction,

Adam: 9:34

Mm-hmm.

Stephan: 9:35

get into. Um. But that trusting the experience allows the experience to move that it, like the experience of being human or whatever you want to call it, um, moves. And it's just a constant ever changing movement and uh, we don't have to resist it. And I think when we try to do things, when we try to assert our will over our lives. Um, we stop, we put a try to build a dam in experience and that that causes tension. It can only ever cause tension. Um, but to really relax into that one really needs to, work to let go of what one thinks one is. I think I am. So if I think I'm something, and then experience presents me with the opposite. I say, um, I'm a loving person, and then experience is anger, there's a disconnect there. And the only way to remove the dis the, the experience never goes away. So the only way to ex to remove that disconnect is to let go of the sense of I that's loving. Um.

Adam: 10:49

Wow, that was huge. What you just shared. I've never Yeah. That, that's something I don't think we've ever talked about. I, I really like that idea in every, let me see if I can summarize it. It just,'cause I, I, it's kind of doing something for me right now with what you just shared. So in every moment there's the experience of what is now it can be like inner emotions of. Agitation or anger or sadness or depression, whatever. And, and then there's a self-concept. There's a sense of self in the form of thought saying, I am a peaceful, loving, kind person, or I'm a terrible person and, and I never get anything. Right. Whatever that self-concept is, and then it, it meets with the experience and there's usually some resistance there. Some, some like dissonance. Right. And you're saying since the experience can't change'cause it is what it is. It's the concept of the self that needs to fall away or dissolve or change.

Stephan: 11:51

I mean, needs

Adam: 11:52

that

Stephan: 11:52

Sure, yeah. Yeah. If you want, if you want to, to any sort of peace in your life, I'd say so. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, yeah, that's how I, that's how I'd say it. Yeah.

Adam: 12:03

that's, that's wild. I, it seems. There's been a mantra that's been coming up for me very, very frequently, and and it's just two words. Zero resistance.

Stephan: 12:17

Hmm.

Adam: 12:17

Zero resistance, and I love what you just shared, which is trust. Trust what's happening. Trust the moment. In order for me to have zero resistance, I need to be out of the picture and just what is is allowed to be. Whether it's the inner world of the turmoil or whether it's the outer world of things happening, whatever it is is allowed to be because there's no one there to say it needs to be otherwise.

Stephan: 12:52

Yeah. Yeah. I mean the, the, the, the zero resistance rings true for me as well. like even now, like even now having this conversation, you know, being recording again, can feel there's like nervousness coming up. There's like a sense of like. Like, like vulnerability and, and I think last year would've been like trying to cover it and trying to like put on a presentation. See, right now I like, I just know better now to like not resist that feeling. And, and not because, and this is, I think this is really, to me, this is a key, not because. Of any reason, not because it's going to be better if I trust it or not, if I don't resist. Not because of some future thing that's going to happen if I do something a certain way, just to, to trust it. Just I, I guess just because,

Adam: 13:58

It is not a means to an end is what you're saying.

Stephan: 14:00

it's not, it's not a means to an end. It's, it's the. I guess you could say the, yeah, yeah. I, I don't know how else to put it.

Adam: 14:11

One thing that you've shared. Several times since the that January experience. And for the record, Steven and I had very similar, maybe we talk about it in different ways and use different words, but in January reading that book, we both had pretty profound insight into the nature of ourself and the nature of presence and awareness. Um. Since then that we're, we've, we've both been integrating quite a bit and I, I think the fact that it both occurred to us at the same time, more or less, is kind of hilarious and, and funny in its own way. Um, maybe synchronistic is a better word. Uh, but something since then that you've shared several times is how much more raw life feels because there's no, there's no filter saying, there's no filter interpreting. The emotions that that come up. And so there's just the, the pure intensity of the emotion. Nothing's being suppressed, nothing's being repressed. In fact, I think that's a huge realization, how much we tend to suppress the intensity of our own emotions unconsciously. But when there's no self anymore doing the suppression, what arises in the moment can be very intense and. But if it's allowed to be felt fully, life becomes crazy rich.

Stephan: 15:39

Yeah. Yeah, I think I, I, I completely agree. Um, I think one of the big fears that. I, I have experienced around that, and I'm sure many other people have,

Adam: 15:56

I.

Stephan: 15:56

that if you stop resisting, then everything's just gonna fall apart. Like there's a certain necessity to the tension life. Um, and I, my experience has shown me the opposite, I suppose. I think at a certain point you just can't resist anymore. Like resisting becomes so painful. I. that the only way through is to get, is to allow basically. but you know, when we, we have this like, story of ourselves and the story of what we're doing in our life and why we're doing it, and all of that is just to cr to resist. The whole purpose of that resistance. when you stop resisting. a lot of that can feel like it's going to come crumbling down. Um, that all of the effort that we've put in, all of the, all of the reasons why things are the, we've said that things are the way they are and that why we've done certain things just all comes crumbling down. And I think maybe for some people that's true that there are truly things that they're up to that are completely. Out of some sort of alignment with what is and, and maybe those things do, but you are, I mean, you are especially a great example. You know, you're, I, I work at a publishing company. My job is not saving lives and, uh, not doing incredibly complex tasks that, um, must be executed a certain way. And, you know, let alone being a director of, uh. Departments and hospitals, and if anyone's life could have come crumbling around them in a dramatic with lots of, uh, ill effects, it would be yours. but I've heard, and I've heard you say so many times that one of the things you've stressed is that you don't have to make those decisions for yourself anymore, if I could put it that way. Like, you don't have to go out and achieve and, and accomplish things and. You know, you've shared with me that in meetings, like the right answer just comes and there's no sort of like sense of like, oh, well let me have thought this out for six hours ahead of time to get the right answer.

Adam: 18:18

Yeah. Yeah. Let me give you an example. This has been a really big change for me. Um, so using the Enneagram as, as an example, I, I, I'm number three apparently, which means an achiever. And there's a, obviously there's a lot of, uh, there's a dark side to that and, and whatnot, but I think generally in the past it, it came from I wanna do more because I. The things that, the roles that I have and the things that I do in the world give me a sense of value and worth. Obviously that's, that doesn't drive me anymore. Um, there's no, there's no desire to, to do or to be anymore that, that sort of desire has faded. Um, instead what I notice that action arises spontaneously in the moment and the moment itself. Calls for the appropriate action, uh, without my input. I'll, I'll give an example. Um, we, I was talking to one of the ICU, uh, nursing directors who was telling me that. Typically when we round on patients, meaning when we go to each patient's room in the ICU, we have a pharmacist who joins us and the pharmacist helps us make sure that the correct dosage of the medication is being delivered, that the patient doesn't have allergies, uh, to the medication. They suggest alternatives. We really value them being present with us, but the timing of them. The timing of when we round didn't match with, with their calendar schedule. And so there was a lot of tension and I remember that, that, that this nurse director was telling me the struggle as she was talking to me. I'm in this place of, of witnessing and watching sort of like empty presence. A thought arose, go right now and talk to the pharmacy director. Tell her. What the concern is, and then I found myself talking and saying out loud. You know what, let me just go down to, to the pharmacy director. Now I'm new to this hospital. I'm new as a director. So I ask someone like, tell me where, where is it? Where's the, where's the pharmacy headquarters? Or whatever. And then, so they take me there, I sit down, the pharmacy director says, oh, it's nice to meet you. I heard you're taking over as director. Um, let me bring. The other members of my team so they could all meet you. So she brought her chief of operations, she brought her lead pharmacist, she brought her secretary, whatever, like a bunch of people all came into her office and it was five of us. And it turns out all these people were the core members of knowing how pharmacy operates. And I shared with them, Hey, I was told that there's a challenge getting you to be present with us during our rounds. What's the challenge? And she says, well, that time doesn't work for us, but if we could do it half an hour earlier, we could join. And I said, that's easy for us to fix. We can just round half an hour earlier. And she said, oh, we were told that you can't change things and, and you have to do it a certain time. And I was like. No, we just round because it was, uh, you know, it was convenient for us, but half an hour earlier is easy. And she said, that would be great. And I said, okay, I'll tell everyone to round at this time tomorrow. How about tomorrow? You send over one of your pharmacists? She's like, no problem. Actually, the person sitting right next to you can join you tomorrow. I said, great, and I, and I shook their hands. We went upstairs and the next day we rounded at that time, and since then, the pharmacist has been with us for all the rounds and in that moment I realized. The thought of what to do and what to say will come. I don't need to plan anything, and it has been this way ever since the right action arises spontaneously in the moment based on what the moment calls for. It's all effortless.

Stephan: 22:16

I hadn't heard that example. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think gets us, um, well, where I, where I go from there is, is really thinking about the, the mind, um, and talking about the mind and, uh, know, up until a certain point. mind is all that's available, or it seems like the mind is all that's available. That's really what we identify as. Um, and there, there comes a certain point when we, when something changes and we, we realize that we're not the mind at all, that like, we're truly not the, the mind is just a thing that's happening. Um, like, like sound like, uh. You know, thought, and I, when you say thought, I mean like conceptions of, you know, conceptualizations, um, you know, like if you listen to a sound with no mind interpreting what it is, it still happens. You don't need the mind to tell you what it is, it it's happening, or to make it happen for lack of a like you, like you shared earlier. And, um, you know, when you really, when you realize that. not the mind, and then you start watching what the mind does. The mind is trying to like, the mind itself is a tool and you can be like, okay, For me, I have an old truck. How do I tune the carburetor? The mind that actually the mind does is good at figuring that out. I can research things. I can ask Che DPT, I can go to YouTube. I can watch, you know, I can do all these things, but when not, none of that's going on, there's no problem to solve. The mind is still a tool habitually trying to solve problems that don't exist. That it, but the mind will also convince you that there is a problem to solve, which is like exactly what you're talking about, where like, oh my God, there's this big thing with the pharmacist. I don't know. Are they gonna like me? Are they gonna, I, I, I'm new here? Are they gonna respect that I'm new, that I'm the director? Do I have to do, have seniority? Like is there a reason why they didn't, they said they couldn't before. Do I have to know that? Do I have to know all the history? Of like this whole relationship and then like somehow like guide myself into it at the perfect timing and strategy to like, make it occur like a stroke of a clock. And it is like, no,

Adam: 24:36

You're so good.

Stephan: 24:37

like it's like that whole thing is just, is made up and it has, it has nothing to do with the situation and it's so habitual that we can't help but do it

Adam: 24:51

You are so good at pretending to be an ego. You're so good.

Stephan: 24:55

We can't help but do it. Um, uh, yeah, and, and then you, this is this. Start seeing that, oh, that's not the case. And then all that's left is this, this, I guess, freedom piece. I don't know, like it's. Uh, it's just what you're saying. It's like things happen and there's no, like,

Adam: 25:16

Yeah.

Stephan: 25:17

and then you start trusting it, right? Because then you, you

Adam: 25:19

Trust.

Stephan: 25:20

see that like, oh, my world didn't fall apart and actually things are better when I don't mess with them.

Adam: 25:27

Yes.

Stephan: 25:28

go out of my way to mess with them. yeah, there can be, there's a rawness, there's a, there's an intensity, there can be strong emotions, there can be, know, kind of old concepts that break down. Um, and we realize we don't need them anymore. But what's left over after that clearing is just this trust, this joyous trust. Um. But what's happening is great what's

Adam: 25:53

Yeah.

Stephan: 25:53

okay, and we don't need to have it figured out ahead of time at, uh, we have to, there's no effort we have to put in ahead of time.

Adam: 26:01

Yeah.

Stephan: 26:02

and in

Adam: 26:02

Yeah.

Stephan: 26:03

would, would just be wasting energy. Um.

Adam: 26:07

There's a feeling I remember very distinctly. I, I, you know, my tendency in the past has been to worry. I, I, I lean towards anxiety as sort of a default mechanism. Um, at least, you know, the ego does. And if I could bring words to, to that anxiety, it would be. I need to be on guard. I need to watch out for everything in case things fall apart. I, I, I gotta watch for this. I gotta watch for that. I gotta be, I gotta think of all possible scenarios of, for how I can address a situation. If this so-and-so says this to me. If so-and-so says this to me, this is how I'm gonna respond. And I have like, you know, layers and layers of fantasies going on in my mind around what I would do and say in, in this particular situation, at work or at home, none of that is happening, but. My mind has to plan for it because it feels if I don't have a plan for life, life's gonna fall apart. The shoe will drop. And one thing I've noticed is all of that noise is gone. The vast majority of that has gone. There's no need for it. And so there's now a trust if I, if there's just a resting. The pure naked awareness of this present moment without judgment of the thoughts that arise without judgment of the emotions that arise or the events that occur. There's so much more stillness. There's so much more stillness, and, and when a, an event occurs, that requires an action on the part of this body and this mind. The thought of what to do comes spontaneously, and I don't know if you've had this experience, it, it, it doesn't feel like I'm choosing the thoughts that arise. Thoughts just come up and the, it becomes clear what needs to happen. And I think part of the trust is I don't need to be the one orchestrating my whole life anymore. I can sit back and watch and watch the play unfold. I'm still taking action, obviously. I mean, I, I have these roles that I'm playing, but it feels like the, the roles are playing themselves

Stephan: 28:36

Mm-hmm.

Adam: 28:37

and I'm, I'm watching the play unfold.

Stephan: 28:39

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I completely agree and, and what I've noticed over time, you know, um, yeah. What I've noticed over time is that there's much more peace with whatever's going on and whatever needs to be done. Um, you know, a lot of times in the past I would really resist. Doing certain types of work around the house, like around the yard, the garden, the truck, like whatever, like whatever. I'm, there's so much owning a owning land and, and a home and it's just, it's, it's, it can be feel like a lot, but I've noticed that there's so little resistance to what needs to get done, and I actually find myself just loving whatever needs to be done. Like I. But I can't tell you how many times that I would stop work and then not wanna do anything the rest of the night. I would just be exhausted. I would just like, yeah, I would just not, I would just not want to, I do anything. I, I mean, I, I, my, my wife can tell you this, this is years and years and years of my life, and I've noticed now that like more, more and more, and it's, and it's, it's always, I've actually been surprised that it keeps. Improving this way. Like I, I just love doing whatever needs to be done. And you know, last night I, after work, I on like three or four different projects and I stopped because the sun went down and, and it was like, oh, this is a good time to stop. And it was the whole time it was, there was no like, oh God, I can't wait to take a break. I can't wait to stop. It was just like, oh, lemme go do this. Lemme do this. I want to do this, I want to do this. There was just this like engagement with life. and all the little things that are, that are exactly show up because that's what my life is. Um, I didn't need to, I don't need to have the answer ahead of time. I don't need to will myself to get something done that has to be done. And I'm doing it out of restorative resistance. I find that I genuinely want to do those things. Yeah,

Adam: 30:55

Yeah,

Stephan: 30:56

it's been surreal to watch happen because it's not some, it's not someone that I recognize would've recognized a year ago or something like that, or eight months ago, you know, six months ago, not, you know, a year ago. Let's say a year ago.

Adam: 31:10

this is like the an anti hussle culture.

Stephan: 31:14

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam: 31:14

You, you,

Stephan: 31:15

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Anti hustles culture.

Adam: 31:18

you, um, what you're describing sounds a lot like the way Daoists might describe the Dao. The

Stephan: 31:26

Hmm.

Adam: 31:27

life becomes a flow, I. What needs to happen happens. You need to do, you need to take care of your truck now you need to work on the garden here. And there's also, um, what I also notice in what you were describing, there's a, a unity or a a, a harmony with nature. You're, the sun goes down. I, it feels like a natural time to stop doing what you're doing. You're, you're listening to yourself. You're trusting the feel of the moment.

Stephan: 31:58

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,

Adam: 32:02

Yeah. Do you take Siestas? Do you take a little afternoon nap?

Stephan: 32:07

Yeah. Oftentimes I do some, some weeks, some days I need more than others. But yeah, I've definitely found myself, um. Needing, needing siestas and taking them. You know, I, I find, uh, 25 minute naps are incredible. There's like the first like 10 minutes, I'm like, my mind's still going. And I'm like, not really feeling any. I was like, wow, this is, I don't know if it's gonna, anything is gonna happen. And like the last 15 minutes I just pass out. I noticed that it's like really, it's really great. And I wake up and I kinda feel a little bit groggy for a. minutes, but then I have a lot more energy and I, it's just been like watching that happen. know, like I, I'm so much more, I'd say I'm, I'm observing things so much more clearly. Like I, like I would've never been able to put language to the anatomy of a 25 minute nap a year ago. Like I would, who would've cared? Who cares? Like, what do you mean a 25 minute nap? I get in, get out. And I was like, I can tell you, I can tell you how long everything lasts. I can tell you all about the anatomy of that 25 minute nap and why it's so great.

Adam: 33:12

Now that's, that's a good book title. The Anatomy of a Nap.

Stephan: 33:15

the anatomy of a 25 of a

Adam: 33:17

Of a 25 minute nap. Yeah. Or an essay title. You know, I find that, um, if so, my, my wife and I have been, uh, napping more on our days off. It's such a glorious feeling to have warm sunlight coming through in the middle of the day. Things are quiet. It's a little warm. We're you're on the couch. And, and you just doze off and it just like, ah, it's such a sweet feeling. If you look at the, interestingly. Spaniards do this or it's a big part of their culture, you know, to just shut down the stores. Um, go in and take a little nap in the afternoon. If you look at the physiology of it, we have a corti cortisol spike in the morning that naturally comes down in the afternoon. And then we have a evening cortisol spike. So we actually have two, uh, two spikes of cortisol, which fit perfectly. The idea of napping in the middle of the day and sleeping at night. I, I don't think the idea of, you know, pushing really, really hard all throughout the day and then crashing at night is the healthiest way to live life. I, I think the more you start to learn to be in harmony with the ebbs and flow of physiology and of nature, life seems to happen a little bit more smoothly.

Stephan: 34:46

Yeah, I mean, and we can bring that back to the resistance concepts we were talking about earlier. I mean, if you're not, if you're just really feeling what is what there is or noticing what there is, like the body's tired, the body just wants to take a nap,

Adam: 34:58

Yeah.

Stephan: 34:59

resist it and you're like, okay. And

Adam: 35:02

Yeah.

Stephan: 35:03

sense of what's happening and as opposed to like, oh God, I'm tired to push through. I need another three cups of coffee so I can finish off this afternoon. It's like.

Adam: 35:13

Yep.

Stephan: 35:14

you causing yourself so much pain.

Adam: 35:16

Yeah.

Stephan: 35:17

like

Adam: 35:18

Yeah.

Stephan: 35:19

for what? What? I dunno. It's just, it seems insane now to, to, to, to say

Adam: 35:27

Well, a lot of suffering comes from the thoughts superimposed on an external experience. So you, I think you mentioned this once you hit your. You hurt yourself somehow and you felt pain, but instead of having like the thoughts of, oh my gosh, this is so painful, none of those thoughts occurred and so you felt pleasure instead, or, or something like that, right?

Stephan: 35:50

had a lot of experiences with pain. I've had moments where, uh, like I'll hit myself like with a hammer or I stub my toe and I immediately catch the thought of like, oh, fuck, that hurts. Or,

Adam: 36:03

I.

Stephan: 36:03

uh, like some sort of fear about the future. And instead I just come right to it and I either I say pleasure sometimes, or also just, I would just use the word intensity. Like, experience becomes heightened and intense. Like the, you know, the chemicals in your body are rushing, there are endorphins, or not even endorphins, adrenaline, thank you. Um, and there's a ha but there's no story behind it. Um, and so you just have this like moment of intensity or pleasure, and then it's done.

Adam: 36:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephan: 36:37

Yeah.

Adam: 36:38

So cool. That's so cool. I mean, that's a game changer. Um, I've heard it said that for people who have chronic pain, uh, like chronic regional pain syndrome, um, CRPS, uh, that a, a sizable portion. A huge percentage of the actual subjective, subjective experience of pain is the mental or psychological fear around the pain getting worse or the suffering of the pain. Um, but the, the actual I. Uh, physiological pain is a, maybe a smaller portion of it, and so that's why a lot of things like mindfulness and presence, uh, training, meditation c can appear to lessen the pain of people with chronic pain.

Stephan: 37:24

I mean, everything that we're talking about in terms of. causes suffering or what causes tension is comparison. If you're in pain, you're comparing the moment that you're in pain to a moment when you weren't in pain, and to a moment when you hope to not be in pain in the future. you're talking about a meeting, you're thinking about the past, you're thinking about the future, like you're, you're comparing what is what you think should be or was, and that is. I mean, that's a source of like almost all human suffering. I, I, I, I'm is comparison way taking, saying what is now should was different and I wish it would be that way again in the future. but it's, that's, that's it. That's what we, that's pain. That's, uh, that's planning our lives and these great, um, you know, mental symphonies that we think are going to make everything work out great. And, um. It is just all, it's all comparison. We're just

Adam: 38:31

Yeah.

Stephan: 38:32

ourselves or whatever this moment is to another moment that only exists in our head.

Adam: 38:38

Yeah. Yeah. Ju judging what is, and telling yourself, this is how I'm interpreting what you're saying, judging what is, what arises, what occurs both internally in terms of your emotions as well as the events that happen. Um, judging it and saying it should be other than what it is. Pauses so much suffering, and, and I still notice those thoughts tend, they, they do arise far less than they did in the past, but I, I, I can watch when the thought of this, what's happening right now, couldn't be.

Stephan: 39:18

Yeah.

Adam: 39:18

And I noticed that it creates a cascade of emotions. And then, uh, like a, a sense of like this insatiable like desire, I was gonna say hunger, but like, it's more like a, a desire to change it. It has to change. It has to be something different. And just that in itself, the desire to change what is, because it's, it's not supposed to be this way, is immensely painful. It's, but we don't, we don't identify it as suffering. We think this is what life is. Life isn't supposed to be this way. I gotta change it. I have to plan for it to be differently. But we don't recognize that that is suffering.

Stephan: 39:57

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, it's, it's really easy to see that with, um, I mean, you, you have so much experience with this, obviously with your work and going through people who are dying or, um, and the, like, there's a moment that, that's it. Like, like with my, with my brother, like he was alive and then he was dead. There was no, there's no like, let me bring him back from the dead so that I don't have to experience this. Um, it's like, how, how can I come to terms with the fact that he died? can I like that? I can, I can run for years. I mean, how, I'm sure we, you know, if you're listening to this or probably know someone who, or maybe it's you who's. Someone so close to you passed away and how much, or an animal or something, and how much you wish that you could just bring them back and not have to have gone through that. And that whole time spent running, you still have to deal with the emotion. If you ever want to actually heal that, you can. You can create so much buried suffering by running, running, running from what is, and I'm using a strong example, but this is the exact mechanism that plays out in. you compare anything, um, is there some, something should be different than what is, and we create entire worlds and universes out of these very clever ways to avoid feeling what is, because what is the. Oftentimes it's very intense.

Adam: 41:33

Yeah, yeah,

Stephan: 41:36

like someone dying or it doesn't even have to be, it's the same feeling. It doesn't have to be someone dying. It can be like, I don't want to, uh, I don't want to go to work today. Like, it's the exact same comparison.

Adam: 41:49

yeah,

Stephan: 41:50

literally the exact same thing. We, we say they're different, but they're not at all.

Adam: 41:54

yeah.

Stephan: 41:56

stronger than the other,

Adam: 41:58

This is.

Stephan: 41:59

They're the same situation. I.

Adam: 42:00

That's a great phrase, um, that I, like I tell myself often there's no hierarchy of illusions,

Stephan: 42:06

Mm-hmm.

Adam: 42:07

uh, which I, I really like it. An illusion of resisting what is, uh, and telling yourself it should be. It can be very intense or it can be very, very mild, but recognizing that, um. In essence, they're the same. Uh, I wanna share with you a story. Um, when, when I was in a hospital very recently, I was in a, working at a hospital in close to downtown LA and, um, it's a little rough there. We, there was a woman who was about to die and she had, um. Her son and she had several children, um, but her son was a, clearly a gang member. I mean, he was tattooed from the, from the hairline, hairline down to his toes. Um. And kind of spoke in, in, in a way. Uh, he had a bunch of friends that would come and visit with him that seemed like they were all gang members. He, he was very, very hard and he was like, uh, you know, give it to me straight doc. You know, is she gonna die? Is she gonna die? And I was like, yeah, you know, I can't predict the future. But she's very, very ill. She's critically ill. She has multiple multi-organ failure. And I'm worried that she's not gonna be able to make it. And he's like, you know, a miracle can happen. A miracle can happen. It's, it's all right. I'll, I'll pray for her. But like, very stoic, you know? And then the nurse called me like an hour later, the family was in the waiting room, and she told me that the patient, the patient's heart stopped and the patient was very adamant. She said, do not resuscitate me. If my heart stops, she made it clear so her heart stopped. She died. I went to tell the family and the son I. And I said, her heart just stopped. I don't know why or what happened, but it just stopped. He screamed. He was like, no. And he started cursing mother F for this and that, you know? And then he like ran to the room and he went to her and he grabbed her hand and she's like, he's like, mama, you gotta come back. Don't do this to me. You gotta come back. And he started like. Pounding her chest and the nurse was like, you know, just please, you know, don't, don't do that, do do that. And he, he like, the whole family was around her. It was painful to watch for the next hour. I kid you not for the next hour. He was screaming at her. The patient I. Come back, come back. You can do this. And then he would get really serious like, you're a fighter mom. You're a fighter. I know that you can do this. You're a fighter. Come on, go for it. Go for it. Go it. Come back, come back, come back. He could not see that her body was going into rigor mortis her face, all the blood was coming out of it. She had these like lifeless eyes staring out into the ceiling. She was dead and she had been dead for, for a, a while now, and he was like pleading with her to come back and I remember sitting there watching, and the family too, the, the daughters clearly a accepted that she had gone and they were rubbing his back. He could not accept that she had died. He was shouting to her as if she had some say and she could come back. It was so striking, and he, at one point, he just got up and walked out and never came back. He just left the hospital, walked away, and it was, to me, this is sort of an extreme version of what we do on a daily basis. We sh

Stephan: 45:51

moment by moment.

Adam: 45:52

we shout at the, at the universe saying, don't be what you are.

Stephan: 45:57

Yeah,

Adam: 45:58

Expect things to change,

Stephan: 46:02

and

Adam: 46:02

it all it does is cause suffering.

Stephan: 46:04

Like if I, if I feel into that right now, like anything, like it's the same grief.

Adam: 46:11

Yeah.

Stephan: 46:12

that we, that in, in that moment, it's the exact same grief with anything in our lives that we just wish it could be different. Um, yeah.

Adam: 46:23

Yeah.

Stephan: 46:23

it, it can't.

Adam: 46:25

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, so, um, but think about how much of life and is predicated on the belief that you can change what is

Stephan: 46:39

Yeah.

Adam: 46:40

all, all the self-help, all the, you know, manifestation work, all, all the, the efforting around create the life of your dreams is predicated on. Changing what is, and now I, I I should say like, obviously you can plan for your life. You know, I have health insurance, right? I, I have, I have life insurance. I'm planning for, for life. I'm taking action. But I think it's something more raw, more fundamental, the inability to be with what is.

Stephan: 47:15

Yeah,

Adam: 47:16

I, I hadn't labeled that as grief, but I like the way that you did that. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of the, the struggle, the pain, the suffering, uh, of the inability to accept what is, and just to be present with what is with no judgment.

Stephan: 47:31

yeah, yeah. If I were to go, um, I know I, I shared this with you. A while ago, but there was this, there was this moment when I felt like I was so emotional and angry and I was, um, just exploring it. I was just being with it and it felt like I had lifted the lid on like, some cauldron of anger, like, like primordial ego anger. And I was just like looking at it and I was like, what is going on? Like, and I just. So much of that grief is me, like the mind ego, whatever you wanna call it. However you break it down, it wants to find solidity so bad.

Adam: 48:18

Yeah.

Stephan: 48:20

Like our, our minds, our egos, it wants to be whole

Adam: 48:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephan: 48:27

And it, it doesn't get that, it can't, that it's, its job isn't to be whole. Its job is to be broken so that we search for wholeness, but it's the, but be, it's the thing that we think we are.

Adam: 48:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephan: 48:44

it's always looking to be whole to heal this, this whole, that can never be filled

Adam: 48:49

It will search forever.

Stephan: 48:51

it'll search for, it'll do anything it can to, to create. The universe is all worlds inside of us to.

Adam: 48:59

Yeah.

Stephan: 49:00

To find that, but it never can. And it's this, that's why I say it's the same grief, because it's, uh, it's the same grief. It's just to different degrees. That's why, that's why I called it grief,

Adam: 49:14

Yeah.

Stephan: 49:15

because it's, it's the same belief in yearning to be whole.

Adam: 49:21

Yeah.

Stephan: 49:21

But I, I think, I think one of the things that I've seen is I, as I've watched. This mechanism work is that it just, it just can't be. It's, it's not its job.

Adam: 49:30

Yeah.

Stephan: 49:31

It's job is to solve problems and

Adam: 49:34

Yep.

Stephan: 49:34

it, and in order for it to solve problems, it has to think there's a problem,

Adam: 49:39

That's it.

Stephan: 49:39

it

Adam: 49:40

Exactly.

Stephan: 49:40

solve it. And

Adam: 49:41

Exactly.

Stephan: 49:42

is like this fundamental built in flaw. But, but it's, but it's when we, when we use it to. In the, like a moment like when someone passes away or the my day isn't going the way I want my day to go. It, it applies the same tool set like trying to wake up on the spiritual path. Right? Because it, it's such a, it's such a dichotomy that the ego is ultimately the one that wakes you up.

Adam: 50:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephan: 50:15

that, that thing that can't be whole, can never be whole, will always be, a piece that feels like it's missing, is the actual thing that pushes us all to find wholeness in the first place. And it's,

Adam: 50:28

Yeah.

Stephan: 50:28

so it's like, uh, yeah, it's just, we just have to listen to it. Like we just have to listen to what is it telling us? What does it think that's wrong? That's wrong with right now? And then go into whatever we think is wrong with right now, whatever we're comparing, just go into that. And and just see what's there.

Adam: 50:45

Yeah. Yeah. I've heard it worded differently. The obstacle is the path or the using a thorn to remove a thorn.

Stephan: 50:55

Yeah.

Adam: 50:55

Right. Using an illusion to come out of illusions.

Stephan: 50:59

Yeah.

Adam: 51:01

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And it's a very clear from, obviously from what you're experiencing right now and um, and what you're sharing, the depth of the suffering that arises with that searching, that endless searching, the seeking and seeking. Hoping, but not ever finding.

Stephan: 51:22

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's, that's certainly my experience.

Adam: 51:28

Yeah.

Stephan: 51:31

Yeah.

Adam: 51:33

Yeah, mine as well too. Yeah. This is why, it's the power of, of non, non-duality in a sense, which is the recognition that there never has been separation, uh, as opposed to feeling something terrible happened and we need a path to fix it. We need a plan to solve it.

Stephan: 52:02

Yeah.

Adam: 52:05

Wow.

Stephan: 52:08

Yeah. I mean, when you take away that, when you just step away from that feeling, left is just, is whole. I mean, it's, it's not whole as in the feeling of wholeness, it's whole, and that it's not divided. The, the, the

Adam: 52:22

Yeah.

Stephan: 52:22

the thing that divides it. the mind is, is an, is an option. Like if you

Adam: 52:29

Yeah.

Stephan: 52:29

can, I mean, I just saying before you just, you can listen to a sound, whatever sense is like the sense that you relate to the most and sound, sight, smell, touch, doesn't matter. Like just pay attention to something occurring in that sense field. And do not label it. Just listen. Just listen without labeling, like that has not been divided. We divide it when we, when we label it. And if you even look at the, the etymology of the word, this, this blew my mind. Okay, so there's all these levels to like the way that is like baked into our world and, and all the kinda like these fun jokes, if you look at the word define, right? I'm saying don't define that sound. The word define the etymology is dier, is too. Limit,

Adam: 53:23

Wow.

Stephan: 53:24

what is it limiting? Right. The whole i the idea of def definition defining something is to limit that thing.

Adam: 53:31

Oh my gosh. I never, I didn't think about it. I've never looked into the etymology of that word. That's wild.

Stephan: 53:37

there. It's right. So when you, you listen to something, you touch something without putting a concept onto it, it's whole and, and the mind is what separates it.

Adam: 53:53

Huge realization. Thank you, sir. Wow. Wow. I think we co. Yeah. We covered so much today and a really impactful return. To, uh, to recording? Yeah. I'm not sure. We, we got a lovely, um, message in mail from, what was her name? Uh, a shout out to, uh,

Stephan: 54:21

you

Adam: 54:21

find out what her name is. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephan: 54:24

that

Adam: 54:24

We, we,

Stephan: 54:25

the

Adam: 54:25

first of all, we love getting messages from you all. It, it really makes this personal, it makes us feel like we're speaking to someone. So please, if there's a part of you that feels, oh, I should just let'em know that I'm enjoying this or, or I wanna talk about a particular teacher or topic, please. Uh, you can reach out to us on Buzz Sprout directly. You can, um, send us an email, uh, I'm sure we've mentioned that probably in the show notes, there's gonna be our email address. Whatever way you, you find to email us and, and let us know your appreciation. We appreciate it.

Stephan: 54:55

Leanne, uh, this one's for you.

Adam: 54:59

This one's for you, Leanne. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Um, actually, your message prompted us to say, you know what, we, we gotta come back. Let's come back, because we've been so in this place of integration and, you know. Being with the insights and the realizations that have occurred to us in the past couple months, there was no real drive to record again, but clearly there's a lot of power that just came out in this, in this recording. So thank you, Leanne. Thank you. Any last words, Steven?

Stephan: 55:30

Nah, I'm good.

Adam: 55:32

Okay. Well, um, lots of love to all of you listeners out there and Steve and I will be coming back for more for sure.

Stephan: 55:40

Bye Adam. Bye

Adam: 55:42

Thanks Steven. Bye.