Letters to the Sky
Letters to the Sky is a podcast about waking up to what you are. We explore awakening and nonduality through honest conversation, irreverent humor, and stories drawn from many traditions and our own lives. Instead of fixed answers, we invite listeners into direct inquiry. Be right where you are. No dogma. Just the ongoing experiment of seeing through illusion and resting in what remains.
Letters to the Sky
Drop All Resistance To Your Life the Way It Is - Zen Enlightenment
Email Stephan and Adam at letterstotheskypodcast[at]gmail.com. We love to hear from you and hear your ideas for episode topics.
Well, here we go again! Stephan keeps trying to lock Adam in the basement, but somehow he always escapes. Join the delightful duo as they navigate formalities and dive into the incredible origins of Zen. This episode unfolds the mind-blowing history of Bodhidharma, the first Zen Patriarch, who spent nine years staring at a wall (seriously, nine years!) and also helped shape Shaolin Kung Fu. The journey continues to Sengcan, the third patriarch, and the profound depth of the Hsin Hsin Ming. Stephan and Adam ponder the nuances of preferences, tension in existence, and how to naturally flow through life like a river. Is there any resistance in this moment? Well, let's find out together. Plus, discover meditative practices and brainwave science with a sprinkle of Adam's doctorly insight.
Email Stephan and Adam at letterstotheskypodcast[at[gmail.com
Ram Dass reading the Hsin Hsin Ming: https://www.ramdass.org/ram-dass-reads-the-third-chinese-patriarch/
Ziran (the natural, spontaneous way): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziran
00:00 Introduction and Banter
00:32 Starting the Episode
01:13 Discussing the Third Zen Patriarch
01:53 Origins of Zen and Bodhidharma
04:10 Zen vs Tibetan Buddhism
06:10 Bodhi Dharma's Teachings and Legacy
08:41 The Profound Teachings of the Shin Shin Ming
12:37 Exploring Preferences and Awareness
15:58 The Role of Preferences in Enlightenment
25:19 Naturalness and Spontaneity in Action
27:10 Understanding Preferences and Misinterpretations
27:31 Natural Actions and Harmony
29:06 The Grind vs. Natural Flow
32:11 Meditative Practices and Brainwaves
36:16 Exploring Resistance and Allowing
38:40 The Metaphor of Layers
45:26 Final Thoughts
Copyright 2025 by Letters to the Sky
Well, it appears we're back again.
Stephan:I keep trying to keep you locked in the basement and you keep getting out. It's becoming a problem.
Adam:Yeah. I think a part of you, uh, is okay with me escaping.'cause you leave the key on the floor every time.
Stephan:Damn. You're good. You're very good.
Adam:Uh, I, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. I, uh, how are you?
Stephan:Formality's first.
Adam:Okay. I'm good, Steven. How are you?
Stephan:I'm going really well, thanks.
Adam:Great. Uh, are we able to start the episode?
Stephan:I mean, we can. I, I really think that it's nice to be back recording again. How about you?
Adam:Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, it's really nice. So much has been going on and yet we get the. Um, we get the juice that comes out of the conversation between you and i, I think there's so much that gets explored and, and the conversation goes in directions that I wouldn't have anticipated. Um, otherwise.
Stephan:Well, let's do it again. Yes, sir. Okay. Let's make the magic again. Alright. What are we talking about today, Adam?
Adam:Today we're talking about the third Zen patriarch. Uh, his name Issan. Uh, I'm probably butchering that. Uh, but mm-hmm. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Sansan, well, it's spelled S-E-N-G-T-S-A-N. And then in other sources it's S-E-N-G-C-A-N. And then in some sources it's SOSN Soan, which I think is the Japanese, uh, way of pronouncing it. Anyway, um. Can I just say the, the zen, the origins of zen are absolutely amazing, mind blowing. Just the, these, these zen patriarchs are, I think I was reading it. Patriarch is not really the original meaning of, of the Chinese term rather than founder I think is more accurate. Like the, these first few founders of Zen freaking amazing. Uh, I just, I'm just really starting to explore it in depth right now. But, um, for example, I was blown away. I, I found out just yesterday, I think I probably should have known this. Um. Bohi definitely should have whatever it is, right? Yeah. I should have Bodhi Dharma. It was the first Zen patriarch, uh, arguably the first the founder of, of Zen, um, in, in a certain way, uh, brought, he was, I think he was Indian and brought Buddhism and the particular form of Buddhism, um, called Chan to China. And he was really, he had these like striking blue eyes and was like six foot three, super built. Very impressive guy. Very intimidating, big boy. Yeah, very big boy. Very, very big boy and such a badass. Like he, he basically, um, after nine years in a cave of facing a wall, which apparently is the whole zen tradition of sitting like zazen and staring at a wall. Started with Bodhi Dharma'cause he was in this cave, staring at a wall. He wanted no distractions. No distractions at all. Sounds a lot
Stephan:like Plato's Cave. Do you think that's where Plato's Cave came from? Did Plato's Cave come from Bodhi Dharma, Adam?
Adam:Uh, I don't think so. But staring at walls. In a cave. I'm, I'm sure there's, you can't see my
Stephan:face if you're listening to this, but I'm just smiling at Adam because I knew that this question when he would take this question seriously. Okay, go ahead. You, you're terrible. Continue to disappoint. Go ahead. Okay. So sat in a cave nine years, staring at a wall. That's the, that's where we get Za uh, Zazen. Zazen. This is the base zen practice of meditation. Yeah.
Adam:Yeah, exactly. Actually, and you, you kind of described, you, you compared Zen with Tibetan Buddhism pretty nicely, or your friend did. Can you, can you share what, what did you tell me yesterday?
Stephan:Oh yeah, so, you know, we've talked about Tibetan Buddhism a lot on this channel, just as a reference, and Tibetan Buddhism. Buddhism. Oftentimes for people learning it, it feels like there are. A million things to keep track of and a million, um, parts of language and concepts to hold onto before you can even start doing anything related to Tibetan Buddhism. That, that's certainly my experience. But, um, zen is almost the opposite. You know, when you start zen, you just sit and it's as simple as that. And you know, like everything, you listen to teachings and everything, but it's just. It's the simplicity of Zazen is really the core of everything. And you know, as you progress through the stages in Tibetan Buddhism, there can be a sense that the language becomes simpler and simpler and less and less has to be said. Whereas in Zen it's the opposite. You know, you start with Zazen and then you progress, and then there's more and more, and then you get to like. Eventually start reading like Dogan, which these huge compendiums of information and you know, Tibetan Buddhism has its own version of that, but it's just interesting, they're almost flipped. Um, Tibetan Buddhism almost gets simpler, the, the higher you go. Whereas Zen gets, uh, in terms of like texts and con concepts gets more, more complex. It's a really big oversimplification, and I'm sorry to both send practitioners and Tibetan Buddhists
Adam:as you should be. You. Mm-hmm. You desecrate everything where you go. I exist
Stephan:in a perpetual state of being. Sorry for my words.
Adam:So going back to Bodhi Dharma, um, what I thought was fascinating about, about him is. Um, I don't recall whether this happened before he spent the nine years in the cave or, or after, but there's this famous, uh, interaction between him and a really powerful Chinese emperor at the time. And, um, the emperor asks him these. Profound questions like, what's the source of my existence? Um, or what's the source, source of all creation? And Bodhi Dharma just laughs at him and says, that's a silly question. Think, think of another one. Uh, and eventually being unsatisfied with the questions that the emperor asks. He, he does. He turns around and he walks away, which is unheard of you. You don't do that to an emperor. You, you just don't, that's so disrespectful. Um, but that, I mean, he didn't care. He didn't, he, he didn't care at all. Um, what he ended up doing eventually. After the nine years in the cave in which, so the story goes, um, his feet atrophied because he was sitting for so long. Uh, but the, there was a realization that he, that the body needed to be prepared for extended periods of meditation, which is very similar to, you know, haha yoga in, in Hinduism or, or how that came about. But the, the body needs to be stronger, more robust, um, to be able to handle these. Prolonged periods of meditation and zazen. And so he went to this small temple in the mountains in China. I don't know which one or where, but, or he started teaching monks. You don't, I should, should ahead.
Stephan:Sorry. Sorry.
Adam:Yeah. But he started teaching these monks different practices, um, like the, the horse stance and, and iron fist and different types of practices to really get the body strong. All of these practices. Formed the basis of what we now know as shall kung fu. Which was like, like a mind blow for me because I, I studied kung fu when I was younger for several years, and it's like, that's quintessentially Chinese. You would never associate that with Zen. I mean, I didn't, uh, just, and to only to realize like the, the first founder of Zen, whereas Zazen gets created is also the founder of Shalon Kung Fu. I mean, this guy's badass. Bodhi Dharma is so cool. Um. So Bodhi Dharma bringing us to where we're at, Bodhi Dharma then passes, uh, the, the mantle to another, um, character and I, I'm not sure his name, hu Huka Aku, um, H-U-I-K-E-I think, who then passes his mantle and, and by passing, I mean sort of the transmission of enlightened mind to a third person, and that's sang. Now, thanks son. Not to, I think he. The least is known about him. Um, reportedly to be born in four ninety six, uh, ad and died in 6 0 6, um, over a hundred that makes him over a hundred years old. But he is reported to have written something called the Shin Shin Ming, which, uh, is, it's interesting. It means verses on the faith mind. Shin means faith and shin means mind. Uh, but uh, obviously in Chinese. There's probably different tonalities to it. And like I said, I'm butchering these phrases.
Stephan:Mm-hmm. Yeah. We're just letting you dig your own grave. Keep going.
Adam:Yeah. The dig the grave has been dug. Um, so it's called the Hin Hin Ming. And the reason I felt so compelled to talk about it is, first of all, it's only like, I dunno, what, how long would you say this is?
Stephan:10 pages.
Adam:10? Yeah. Yeah.
Stephan:Four,
Adam:five. Actually
Stephan:don't know.'cause you're looking at something that I can't see.
Adam:Yeah, that's true. It's five, it's five pages in a tiny book that's, uh, smaller than the size of my hand. It's, it's five pages. It's very, very short. Um, and it, it's, it's been rocking my world. I It is so profound. It is, it's so concise. I feel like, so there's a, there's a form of this. I'm gonna get to reading some of it, but I highly recommend for those of you out there, go to YouTube. Type in chin ing, uh, spelled or just type in third Zen patriarch rom das. And there's a YouTube video of rom das actually reading from this, which in itself is so cool. Um. And I just with his voice and the, the depth of these words. Uh, I think the video's about 17 minutes long. Just listening to that, I go into this beautiful, beautiful meditative state, and there's just like any good parable. There are so many levels and layers to the teaching here, but let me, let me just read the first two sentences. No first three sentences. This is, this is the first p, first stanza, first paragraph. The great way is not difficult for those not attached to preferences when neither love nor hate arises. All is clear and undisguised separate by the smallest amount, however, and you are as far from it as heaven is from earth. So that first sentence just gets me every time. The great way is not difficult for those not attached to preferences. Something so profound happens. On a, on a high level, maybe superficial level, you could say, yeah, of course. Okay. Don't have preferences. Don't have likes or dislikes. All right? Yeah, I get it. Quintessentially Buddhist. Makes sense. No grasping, no pushing away. But then when you really go to the level of raw awareness. When you have subject object, duality, just like right now, being present to whatever, listening to my voice or, or whatever you're looking at, the, the sensation of the chair that you're feeling as you're sitting on it. These are objects in awareness and it's so subtle, but maybe, and this is what I noticed myself in every given moment. There can be the subtlest of desires for this moment to be other than what it is, and in that. There's a preference. It's the tiniest of preferences, but it's there. And, and this is what, what, you know, Sansan is saying like, separate from that by the smallest amount and you're as far away from heaven as, as heaven is from earth. And, and that's what I noticed, like in this place of pure awareness, if there's the teeniest amount of preference for this moment to be other than what it is. Then you've broken from it. And I noticed in order for me to, to just completely be unattached, the only way out of that is to step as far back into naked awareness. That's it. Just naked awareness and allow all the objects to, to be as they are. And when I do that, and this is the profundity of what I've been noticing in the last couple days, is when I really, really go there, I notice the object. Always drops away with the subject. The object and subject dichotomy falls away simultaneously. There's no, Adam's not there anymore. When I really, really let go, when I totally allow the preferences to drop away, the object falls away. The subject falls away. There's nothing left, and, and things get so still, like a deep, deep stillness occurs. And that's why IFIF. I just listened. I've been listening to this for three days now every night, and I read it in the morning. There's just these waves of stillness that come from going deep into this falling away of subject and object. That's why I wanted to talk about this book.
Stephan:That was great. Thank you.
Adam:Thanks. You probably end the episode now.
Stephan:I think that's it. I think we're good.
Adam:Yeah. Yeah. Look, look, this is, this is the second stanza. Okay. I promise I won't, I won't quote the whole thing, but you, y'all should really agree.
Stephan:You might. You
Adam:might, you
Stephan:might.
Adam:Okay. If you wish to know the truth, then hold to no opinions for or against anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind. So good. So good.
Stephan:Yeah. Yeah. This is, um, the basis I think for, so one, thank you. That was the, was really wonderful and I think it's the, the basis for a discussion about. What that, what the implications of this are. You know, it's easy to hear that. Okay. You, you basically, you can't have any preferences, which feels like it, it feels like antithetical. I mean, it feels like it because it is just to spoiler alert, uh, antithetical to having a personality and having a life. Yeah. It, it, it, and it can be really, this is one of the most common objections I hear. I mean, I listen to, I listen to lots of teachings by different teachers. I myself have been in that position of answering, talking about this very subject, um, and inevitably comes up. Does that mean that I can't have a life, basically, like you just want me to literally sit in a cave and not have any preferences? And the answer is like, that's kind of missing the point. Yeah. It's not about like sitting in a cave and sitting there, not wanting to sit in a cave doesn't make your preferences go away. You know? Like, like it's not about having no life, it's not about taking something away from you. It's about seeing that. When you set up a preference and a dislike, you inevitably create tension that just ha like tension is created. That's the whole thing. It's, it's like a, it's like a system that comes into being, there's something you like, something you want, you're avoiding. Those things, there's a tension between them and all that this is saying is that when you dissolve in your case, you said you, you watched subject and object disappear. So along with those goes all of those subjects and objects, objects, preferences, right? It's a whole world disappears. It's not just like, you know, you said subject an object, but there's a whole everything else that comes along with those and it's. It's not about whether or not there's some sort of outcome called. I get to live my life and or I don't get to, you know, have pizza anymore because I like pizza and I, I don't want to avoid, I want to avoid not having pizza, whatever, you know, whatever that is. Yeah, yeah. I keep wanting pizza. It's that you have to look at the tension that's created. You just, you know, you need to notice the tension that's created from having the preference and understand that that's not your natural state. It because a lot of people feel that tension. They say, well, yeah, well that's what life is. Life is just tension. Life is, and it, and there's kind of this Well, of course, like what else would it be? And you, that's, that's, that's the part that sucks about being human. And that's then we, we go through tension and then we die.
Yeah.
Stephan:But that's what the profundity of this is that, and what all of these teachers are pointing to is that that's not who you are. That's, you think that's who you are, but it's not actually who you are. And there's actually a way, a method through all of these traditions, Buddhism's pointing to, of realizing that's that's not who you are. Mm-hmm. And when you realize that that's not who you are, that tension drops and, and you start, you start watching the tension form. And then you watch it fall away because you no longer identify with it. That's the key and that is the profundity of, of this kind of teaching is that it's not that you have to give something up, it's that you have to see that you were never that thing to begin with.
Adam:Yeah. Yeah. It, it, it's identification with it. And just to go back, I think that the key is the very first sentence, um, which is for those not attached to preferences, it's not saying Right. For those without preferences or Yeah.
Stephan:That's the key. Yeah.
Adam:For, for, you know, exactly. For those where there are no preferences, because I mean, fundamentally in this, in this reality, that, that. Preferences exist. I mean, I, I prefer a specific type of coffee. Yeah. Coffee over another. I prefer certain clothes. Yeah. Certain books like it'll, preferences will always exist. And I would even argue some of the best literature, some of the best art, some of the best music is the play between tension and release. Tension and release. And it's, it's so rich. Of course. It's so, so rich. But the key is. If you're identified with it, as you said. Yeah. Or as Anne said, uh, the attachment to it. And what I've noticed and I'm curious about your opinion, is when there's no more identification with the person who has the preference, but the person who has the preference is allowed to be with no pushing otherwise. Everything becomes much more vivid and rich. It becomes a play. It becomes fun because there's no one there forcing or needing what is to be anything other than what it is.
Stephan:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, I, I totally relate. You know, I would say. That is you. I agree with your key that it's the attachment to the preferences. So, so many times we'll say like, I have a preference for something. Um, I like this black pen versus writing with this blue pen, something silly like that. And we'll say, oh, oh, an enlightened person wouldn't care. Enlightened person wouldn't have some, like, it's, it's like there's like a, they're a zombie and that's not Yeah. What it, it's that they're okay with their preference. They're okay with EX because their preference is, what is it? It's like enlightenment can be described as being okay with what is and what is is a preference in that moment. What is, is a preference. There'll be another moment when there is no preference and it's, it's, that's why. The dissolution of the self is so crucial to this whole thing because when you say, okay, um, what is Steven, when I say what is Steven's vision for Steven's life, that's something that happens right now. But, but in five years that could be diff in 30 minutes, that could be completely different. And if I go back and say, no, I can't, my, I can't change my mind because I made up my mind already. Like there, it's. Already, it's, it's live in the moment. It's fresh and that freshness. But what is the preference? Now, you could say, since we're talking about preferences, that is, there is a vividness to it. There is a, oh yeah, this is what it's like to want this and to love this and to, to have this experience and that experience in and of itself is perfect. There's no, you don't need to resist that experience. And, um, I think a lot of people. This, this gets into a, the next place that my mind goes, maybe'cause I'm a cynic, is the objection. Well, if you just have any preferences, then what is the point of morality? What aren't you supposed to have certain preferences? Isn't it right to have certain preferences over other, isn't there. Isn't there a moral slant to this? And the whole thing that we're talking to, if you're listening to this, if you're already someone who's listening to this conversation and following what's going on and interested, that's not gonna be a problem for you. I promise you that very few people who are robbing convenience stores are listening to this podcast. Those you, if you listen to this, you probably don't have a big ethical problem like that. And, and it's also, it's also a reason why the path, all of these paths always start with morality because it, we've talked about this before. You start building the base and then eventually you have to dissolve what you thought you were, that built the base and. You'll find that if you've, when you've done that work and you've gone through it and you, you have transformed yourself, you have worked into becoming a good person with a good heart. That's heart first. That when things fall away, they're not replaced by a bad person. It's not, they're just replaced by love. It's like all of a sudden the love that you know, you are, and you have practiced generating and practiced being with and remove the barriers to that love all of a sudden can just flow. And that love flows into every experience. It flows into the preference for the black pen. It flows into the preference for just sitting on the couch or the preference for going and touching a tree. Um, it doesn't it. The love just starts flowing into those experiences and everything like you're saying, becomes more vivid, becomes more juicy. There's just a juiciness to everything that comes.
Adam:What you're describing, and this is where my mind is going to, um, is something that I've read about. It, it's related to Taoism, but during this period of Zen, uh, going over to China, there's such a huge interplay, a very rich mixture between these original expressions of Buddhism and Taoism, and, and there's a phrase. Um, it's called Zan or Zan or, oh, now you can
Stephan:pronounce it correctly. Okay. Alright.'cause now all of a sudden you can say these words, I've heard someone say this word. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.
Adam:That's the only reason the other phrase that, but, um, so if, for those looking it up, Z-I-R-A-N, or I think the other way it's written is T-Z-U-J-A. Can we just,
Stephan:can we just put a link in the. The show notes.
Adam:Yeah. Sounds good. We can do that. Um, and it, it refers to naturalness like natural spontaneity. When there's no one there anymore, when there's no personhood, like a separate self action still occurs. There's the, the action still happens. Um, but the place it's coming from is pure. Natural, harmonious, uh, action, which is to say like, you know, going back to Daoist ideals, look at, look at water, look at the way a river flows. The river isn't intending to go left and then right, and then twist and the turn at those moments, it's completely in harmony with the river riverbanks and the, the, the mountain around it. And the valley like it, it is totally natural that its flow is spontaneous and what. I hear in what you're saying is
Stephan:real, real quick and you'd never say that the river is wrong. You'd never, you'd never pointed the river. That's good. Say you are wrong for the way you are.
Adam:I love that.
Stephan:Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Adam:No, it's really, that's a great, exactly. And so for those saying, okay, I shouldn't have preferences, great. First of all, there's no shoulds, but if, if you're, if you're hearing it that way, have no preferences, don't do anything, you know, all of that. That's, that's a, I think it's a misinterpretation of, of what's being said. Um, instead, you're not attached to it and you're not identified with it. Preferences still happen. And amazingly, and this is so cool to watch, action still happens. You will notice this body, the, the thoughts will pop into the mind directing the body to do and say, and move in a very natural way. In, in fact, um, this was, I just recently finished reading a book on, um, Confucianism, but Confucianism and Taoism conflicted. Um. Around this exact point, Chong Chong, he famously like refuted or pushed away these Confucian scholars who were really regimented in ritual because Chong SU's point was everything. All actions should be natural. Now I would, I would, uh, argue that in certain environments it may be the most harmonious action. To, to perform ritual, to meaning, to do things according to rules. If you're in a government position, you speak and you say in a certain way, um, that may be the most harmonious form of action. So naturalness doesn't necessarily mean like chaos, it just means you're in total harmony, uh, in the moment, and that there's. There isn't a striving of a person pushing, forcing, and, and this is very pertinent and personal to me a lot of my life. And for those listeners who've been with us for all these years, you
Stephan:know, any other type A people listening?
Adam:Yeah. Yeah. Type A. It's all like life. Think about the, the gr the grind, the hustle mindset, right? It's all about push, push force, visualize what you want to achieve and you can achieve it. Just go out there and grab it. Like this is probably the opposite of what we're talking about. Allow the action to come from a place of harmony and, and naturalness.
Stephan:Yeah, and I think I wanna go, I wanna rewind a little bit because you're using words like allow it to happen a certain way. I, I'm just gonna, I want to clarify because this is how I think about it. We're already talking about the dissolution of self, so I've already kind of like ripped the bandaid off. You don't have to allow anything. That's the way it's already happening. You have a preference for a black pen, not because you hate blue, but because you have a preference for a black pen. The mind comes in and tells you why you have a preference for a black pen. It come. The mind comes up with a reason after the preference happens. And I, they, they, they, so you can actually watch it happen the first time, like you encounter something that you've never encountered before. You have a reaction to it. And the it, it's fine to notice the reaction. To notice the, it's the preference. The reaction is the preference. And then your mind, after you feel it, your mind will tell you why. That reason can change,'cause multiple people can have the same reaction to one thing for different reasons. The reason is not tied to the preference. The reason is the story to keep you trapped in thinking. The preference means something because if it means something that you can create more tension and you can keep running from yourself. So it's it. Preferences occur just like water flows. A lot of people think that somehow experience stops, that there's just a blackness. There's just if, if you go through with this, that there's just nothing. There's just, there's just nothing and you, you die or something. Right? Like, it's like a zombie. Like people just, the zombie thing keeps coming up. Like people think you become a zombie. That's not the case. It's just you. You stop resisting what is, and so much of who we think we are is fighting things that it, people see that and they say, oh God, who would I be if I wasn't fighting this? Hmm. And that's why it feels like something's being taken away because they, we want to fight, we want to defend, we want to, you know, we want to say why we want. And when you remove all that, you see that you don't have to allow, you don't have to allow anything because it's just happening regardless. It's happening in your consciousness. Um, there's no difference between one thing and another
Adam:in a certain way. This is really good. It's really good practice, meditative practice. Um, just this morning when I was sitting in meditation, um, all I did was was close my eyes and go deep within and just. Became aware, uh, about 50 feet. Th 30. 30 feet. Okay. 30 feet. That's pretty far. Yeah, it's pretty far for a person. Yeah. I, it was like compression, you know, compression, sickness was, was a real thing. I had to slowly go my back up. Back up. Um. Actually a side note, some I've been playing with using, um, certain audio entrainment, uh, like that gets you into like theta delta states. It's pretty, pretty fun.
Stephan:Is that word entrainment? Is that what that's called? I haven't heard that. Yeah.
Adam:Audio entrainment. Yeah. So there's two, there's multiple forms of it bin neural beats, which is like classic. Um, but there's iso chronic tones, but it's basically like these. Tones that make your brains go, make your brainwaves go into a certain state. Okay, we're going into science now, but can you
Stephan:tell he's a, can you tell he's a doctor, people? Can you tell He is a doctor? Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. It's fun. It's fun
Adam:to play with, uh, to, to, yeah. So it basically
Stephan:sounds, and things that, that turn, turn your brain onto certain wavelengths, essentially. Yeah. F like, okay. Okay.
Adam:This is definitely a tangent, but I can't, we should explore it. Um,
Stephan:let's do it.
Adam:But, uh, so they're, they've, they've done these studies where they hook up EEGs, electroencephalograms, they measure the brainwaves of, of Buddhist monks, meditators, actually, actually Ming Rimpoche one, famously one of the monks who got tested. Uh, and they can measure the brainwave states that they go into. And what's amazing, first of all, is they, they appear to go into what is, we would call deep sleep or dreamless sleep. The difference being they're not sleeping. They're fully conscious, but their brainwaves look like they're in deep, deep sleep, whereas a usual human being would be unconscious. These long-term meditators are fully conscious, fully aware, but their brainwaves are going to the de. Deep places. And then one interesting tidbit from some of the recent re research is when they start to practice loving kindness meditation, like really holding a, a deep sense of compassion and a desire to serve and help others in that deep state, the brain starts to produce gamma waves. Now the interesting, uh, corollary is deep sleep is delta. It's super slow. The brainwaves are very, very slow. But gamma is super fast. It's actually faster than the regular brainwaves that occur when you're awake. So we don't know why. We don't know why, but some people have to theorize. It has to do with the integration of various, um, neural networks in the brain. So the deep integration happens when you start to think about others in a loving way. Um, anyway, so I've been there, there are all sorts of audio tracks out there. You can type in brainwave entrainment, um, and then you just listen to it. Um, it's like sounds of brain that you put a link in the show notes like that. Oh God, there's like hundreds of thousands on YouTube, but I, I'll, we can type it,
Stephan:be better. Um,
Adam:and it, it's for those who don't like to meditate or find meditation's hard. I would recommend listening to some of these tracks. It'll make you feel like you're going into a deep state, but you don't really have to, you meditate for 30 years to, to get there. Um, but it doesn't What's the, what's
Stephan:the fun in that? What's the fun in not having the struggle? Well, the fun comes, comes the pain with the learning.
Adam:Okay. Okay. Mr. Sadist, um, or masochist I should say, but, um. So you could, you could go deep, but you still have to do the work. Obviously you still go, go within and do the work. So, like I was saying, I was meditating this morning and, um, going into a, a really still place. And the only thing I looked at, just aware of my own awareness, aware of this present moment, and I asked myself, is there any resistance here? That's it. Is there any resistance here? Is there a total allowing or not? Uh, and you know, I, I know you to the point that you brought up. Allowing isn't maybe the best accurate word, word to describe this. I think
Stephan:it's a great, I think it's a great word. No, no, no. I think it's a great word.
Adam:It, it, it for, for, for me at least, it's like a key just in the asking. There's this sharp awareness, it's like this quick clarity that happens and I, and just seconds after I ask the question, I'm usually aware of some subconscious or deep resistance.
Mm-hmm.
Adam:And often it's subtle and I, I, it's just the need to go there and to look at it and observe it. And oftentimes just in the looking alone, just in having that courage to look. Recognize, yes, I, there is resistance to this moment. There is a resistance to life. Mm-hmm. In that, seeing something dissolves, something fades away, uh, and allowing occurs, uh, there, their peace starts to arise. And then I just rest in that. I rest in that piece. And it's, it's funny because I feel like I'm playing with these super subtle minute waves of consciousness, if you will. But I feel like that that is, you know, it's like the, the earliest wave hundreds of miles out, um, in the ocean. Mm-hmm. But as it approaches, yeah, sure. It turns into a tsunami and Yeah. But I think if you can play with those subtle waves deep in your mind, you save yourself a lot of trouble before they become tsunamis.
Stephan:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think, um, oh shoot, there was something there that. Tsunamis
Adam:meditation, brainwaves,
Stephan:tsunami, tsunami meditations, meditate on tsunamis. Um, no. It was, you know, everything we're talking about, we're talking about removing layers. We're not talking about adding more concepts. A, the stuff where we're talking about is, is self-evident. The more and more layers of the onion that is you, you remove. Um, it's, none of this is. That's why this moves from, that's how you move from theory to practice in, in this, you know, it's good to understand the theory. It's good to understand it conceptually, but to do it, to do these meditations, to, to ask yourself, like you just said, is there resistance? I, I've totally done that myself. I absolutely. Just checking in with yourself, is there resistance and why does it, why does it dissolve when it's seen? It's, it dissolves when it's seen because it's not natural for it to be there. It's, it's covering up something else. And what it's covering up is, is your natural state, which you see once that resistance goes away, and then another resistance comes when we are not aware of it. Another one. And that's just, that's how you slowly start to peel back the onion.
Adam:Why did we pick an onion for that metaphor?
Stephan:Because they're stinky, but they're also delicious.
Adam:Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever eat smell of, do you ever onions,
Stephan:but like your wife hasn't eaten onions, and then she's like, no, I don't think I'm gonna kiss you right now. And you're like, why did I make that choice?
Adam:Well, you gotta get her to eat. That's
Stephan:exact. No, that's the trick. Yeah. You say, all right, time for you to eat some onions,
Adam:then you get like a kissy onion breath.
Stephan:Mm-hmm.
Adam:I think the smell of onions, I mean, I remember this, my grandma, uh, Pakistani grandmother, uh, I'd come back from school when she used to live with us. She would cook onions and like, and, and ghee, right. Clarified butter.
Mm-hmm.
Adam:And, um, or sometimes just like onions and butter, uh, that smell. Like right before adding the sauce and the chicken, whatever, but like that, that the beginning of the cooking, cooking your, like slightly caramelized onions mm-hmm. And, and butter. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Salate with just that.
Stephan:It's like when you start, when you start, anytime you start cooking,'cause onions and like onions and garlic are a lot of times the base for cooking. Yeah. And then people just walk into the room like, what are you cooking? It's like, it's just onions. It's onions and garlic. And it's, every time it's like magic. It's like they, they get attract. It's like, it's like mods to a flame of, what are you cooking? Onions.
Adam:Onions. Well maybe, maybe that should be the new metaphor. Instead of peeling onions, you just cook'em. Cook and caramelize'em. Caramelize'em. It doesn't work as well though.
Stephan:Yeah. I don't know, man. It's the,
Adam:it's the layers. I think you might be,
Stephan:I think you might be trying to reinvent the wheel here. Do you want to use another one? What about like Russian dolls or, oh
yeah.
Stephan:Uh, what's another thing with layers? I don't know what other things have layers. Adam, if you listen to this, throw up some suggestions. What other things have layers? Jackets, not onions, jackets, coats. Yeah, sure. I like the Russian dolls for sure.
Adam:Mm-hmm. That's good. No, the jackets and
Stephan:coats are
Adam:what I got. I got another quote.
Stephan:Okay, great.
Adam:All right. When the mind exists, undisturbed in the way, there is no objection to anything in the world, and when there's no objection to anything, things cease to be. In the old way, when no discriminating attachment arises, the old mind ceases to exist. Let go of things as separate existences and mind to vanishes. Likewise, when the thinking subject vanishes, so too, do the objects created by mind.
Stephan:Oh boy. This is a very deep rabbit hole that I don't know that I want to go down right now. We're already 45 minutes into this episode, man.
Adam:The first one. The first one. I mean, I just keep coming back to this feeling, feeling the tension of existence.
Yeah.
Adam:I, I think if that's, if there, if there was a theme to this episode, it's be present to the tension of existence that, like, that inherent resistance you have to the present moment. Yeah. When, when the mind exists undisturbed in the way, there is no objection to anything in the world. Just that sentence. Just that sentence. And you know, it, it's, it's. One of my favorite, um, spiritual texts is a Course in Miracles, which is sort of a Christian metaphysical, it's not really Christian, it's more really, it's more ante, but it uses Christian terminology and there's, there's this path, uh, pathogen there that talks about forgiveness. Uh, and it talks about letting go forgiveness simply is it merely looks and waits and judges not. It does not seek to twist reality to appearances. It likes, and I, I always come back to that sentence because it's, this is exactly what San is saying over here. Like, what part of you is tr is objecting to the way things are. Doesn't mean you can't take action and change things, but internally, is there an attitude towards reality that is an objection, like you're saying no to life in a certain way. Just being aware of that.
Stephan:Yeah. I'm, um, you go to a CIM and I go to Sailor Bob Anderson, who is a disciple of Lisa Guata, um, 20th Century Indian Master, and he has a book and the title of it is, what's Wrong with This Moment? If you don't Think about it. I think that sums it up perfectly.
Adam:So good.
Stephan:Yeah.
Adam:Yeah. I have that book. Just looking at the cover is enough to,
Stephan:yeah, right. All you need is the title to Wake you up.
Adam:Just, just the title. We'll wake you up. Yeah. What a pointer right there. Wow. Say it again.
Stephan:What's wrong with this moment if you don't think about it? Yeah. Wow. Well, speaking of titles, I don't know what the heck I'm gonna call this episode. This has been a lot of different topics. Rapid fire.
Adam:Yeah. Well, like I said, I think, I mean, really this Hin Ming thing. From the third Zen page. Okay.
Stephan:That's it. That's it. The HIN main thing. That's the title of the episode. Got it. The
Adam:main thing. Oh God. Umang not open. Your mouth around me. Sang. Yeah, ancestor to Zen. Please forgive me and forgive Steven. I hope he's not turning around in his grave. I heard it's possible that it's like a later disciple of his is the one who wrote this and it was attributed to him. But I guess the further back you go in time, the more likely those sort of things happen.
Stephan:Yeah. Let's, let's, let's finish up, let's say an, let's send a high note.
Adam:Let me, let me finish up. I actually, um,
Stephan:okay. Okay. And then this is gonna be at this, you're gonna read this. Okay. And then we're not gonna say anything about it. I'm gonna,
Adam:this is the last paragraph.
Stephan:An hour of silence after this. Okay. Yeah. This is an
Adam:hour of silence. All right. Okay. I'm gonna, no, no. After
Stephan:you read it. After you read it, yeah. Yeah.
Adam:And then, and then, and then we just close and end.
Stephan:Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Okay.
Adam:Well then before, before, hope you've enjoyed this episode. Lemme read
Stephan:it episode before Adam read it. I,
Adam:yes. Thank you all for listening. Um, actually just a quick, uh, shout out to several of our, uh, listeners who send us, uh, mail via Buzz Sprout. I don't know how you do it. I actually don't know the, the links that show up
Stephan:apparently Buzzsprout has, we have our own podcast webpage on Buzzsprout and people send us things there. Just so you know, we can't respond to those. So. Sorry. Uh, we can respond to Spotify comments, so if you listen on Spotify, I don't know about Apple, but if you listen to Spotify we can reply to those, but we can't reply to Buzz Sprout ones. This is fine, but we see, we hear you. We will be doing an episode on Sleep and Dreaming shortly
Adam:and maybe astral projection. I had a couple people yeah, that mention that too. That goes the dreaming projection, all. All that stuff if you want. Um, we love emails and we will always respond to emails probably in a lot more depth than we would on any other platform. So if you're interested in just shouting out and saying hi, uh, it's Letters to the Sky podcast@gmail.com. Letters to the Sky podcast@gmail.com.
Stephan:Okay. Adam promises to respond within six hours. Okay, go ahead Adam.
Adam:All right. Each thing reveals the one, the one manifests as all things to live in. This realization is not to worry about perfection or non perfection. To put your trust in the heart mind is to live without separation. And in this non-duality, you are one with your life source. Words. Words the way is beyond language for in it. There is no Yesterday. No Tomorrow, no. Today.