Letters to the Sky

The Work that Reconnects - A Tribute to Joanna Macy

• Adam Rizvi

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Honoring Joanna Macy: Love, Grief, and the Dance of Life

Welcome back, folks! Join Stephan and Adam as they dive into a heartwarming tribute to the incomparable Joanna Macy. They chat about her life, her profound contributions to spiritual ecology, and her legacy of promoting interconnectedness and compassion. Explore grief, love, and how we can be Shambala warriors, embracing powerful, love-driven action in today's world. Shoutout to Dayton for the episode inspiration!

If you have an episode recommendation on a book or topic related to awakening and spirituality, and to sign up for our email list, email us directly at:

letterstotheskypodcast [ at] gmail.com



00:00 Introduction and Welcome
00:54 Tribute to Joanna Macy
01:26 Joanna Macy's Life and Work
03:04 Emotional Connection and Grief
04:16 Spiritual Ecology and Interconnectedness
14:41 The Shambala Prophecy
22:52 Taking Action from Love
29:09 Misconceptions About Awakening
30:16 The True Meaning of Awakening
31:24 Mind-Made Weapons and Their Undoing
33:35 The Power of Love Over Hate
35:36 Feeling Without Pathologizing
47:47 Joanna Macy's Reverence for Life
51:49 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

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Copyright 2025 by Letters to the Sky

Adam:

Welcome back, Steven. Steven Downs.

Stephan:

you very much, Adam. How are you doing?

Adam:

Good, good. I'm really excited, uh, for this episode today. This is a good one.

Stephan:

Yeah, this is a special one and it's been, uh, it's been a while coming. It's good to be recording again. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah, yeah, agreed. And a special shout out to. Dayton Gorley, uh, who is probably off farming somewhere, uh, or taking care of his sheep in Norway. Uh, Dayton, this episode is, um, thanks to you. Dayton is a good friend of mine and he, um, friend of ours actually, uh, and.

Stephan:

now

Adam:

He,

Stephan:

dare you.

Adam:

he is your frontier. Um, Dayton recommended that we talk a little bit about Joanna Macy, um, who recently passed away in mid July, I wanna say July 19th of this year in Berkeley at the age of 96. Um, I don't think we can do her. Justice in this episode, but we'll certainly try to, we, we hope to honor her life and her legacy and everything that she did. Joanna Macy, gosh, how do I even start? Um, so for those who don't know her, Joanna Macy is, uh, she was a scholar, she's an activist, um, a spiritual teacher very well versed in, in. Not only Buddhist philosophy, um, but systems theory ecology. Um, she, gosh, she did so much. She did missionary work. She worked with Tibetan refugees. Um, she actually worked and studied with Erwin Oslo for, for those who were into this world, uh, Irwin Oslo was a, one of the preeminent systems theorists. And, um. She or Irwin Lazo, um, taught that everything is interconnected and actually spoke about the role consciousness plays in in interconnection. And it's interesting. If you look back at Joanna Macy's life, it's amazing to see the, um, evolution of her work, even from her early days. Uh. Studying with folks like Irwin Laslo her, the religious studies, her dissertation. Actually I have a note here. I took some notes about her. Her dissertation is, was called Mutual Causality in Buddhism and General Systems Theory and, and this is like in the 1970s. It's amazing to see like. Right from the get go, the threads of Buddhism interconnectedness, um, her care for systems of nature and her compassion for all of that, it just was very evident from early on. Um, and I think another huge aspect to what she's known for is helping people feel. And what I, what I mean by that is when we see, when we truly see what's happening in the world at, at least in the context of nature and the environment and our interconnectedness with, with Planet Earth, with Mother Earth, I think it's natural to feel a deep sense of grief and despair to see what's happening. And Joanna really. Helped us connect with that grief and allowed us to feel deeply. And from that sense of feeling, um, aro arose compassion for a lot of people. I feel it certainly did to me as I really dive deep into her work, uh, I probably think that in, in addition to the, the understanding of interconnectedness is one of her biggest, uh, legacies. What do you think when you think of Joanna Macy?

Stephan:

Wow. Well, you already covered all of it, so, uh, I'll see how much I repeat.

Adam:

level.

Stephan:

When I, I mean, when I think of Joanna Macy, I really do think of, for me, the voice of spiritual ecology and,

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

spiritual ecology, but. I mean, just a spiritual connection in general. I mean, Joanna uses Buddhist terminology and, and you know, ideas from both Poly and Tibetan Buddhism, but it's, they're fundamental truths because she ties it directly to our, are like felt sense of self as a person in a world, is really special because. So many times it's so easy to disassociate spiritual practice from our felt sense of self, and in fact, I'm certainly guilty of this and I, I'm sure many others are. There's a sense of there can be an attempt to kind of. Tear apart the self tear apart the aspects of the self these composite parts that we have to understand and analyze. And I think of the gifts that Joanna brought was that she really allowed the self, that allowed us to be as we are and feel what we feel. Without having to conceptualize it, without having to overly analyze it and still understand that what we feel is a piece of a larger puzzle. And so it's, for me, her work is a really, is special embodied reframing of the spiritual path of awakening. Um, stripping away a lot of the. Mental concepts that go typically go along with walking a spiritual path and especially something like Buddhism, which is pretty concept heavy to begin with. So I, I think of, I think of just an amazing spiritual teacher who happened to teach through the lens of ecology.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. I feel like it, uh, for a lot of people, she helped us understand we are not alone. We are, we are not solitary individuals on, on a cold uncaring. Planet it, but really deeply interconnected with the fabric of, of all things around us. Uh, even going so far as to see this entire world as a single organism, a single being, and we are facets or, or part of that. It, for me, it, it's a profound shift in sense of identity, self, a sense of self.

Stephan:

Yeah, absolutely. It's a, it's a total shift. And, um, how do I wanna, how do I wanna say this? It's. Not about having the right concept of self. This is what's, this is what I think. It's so

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

It's, it's about feeling, literally, really just feeling what you actually feel about the world without concepts. And I think, know, she uses certain questions. She, she uses the ecological framework, so she talks a lot, um, about. You know, kind of corporate expansionism and using the world as a resource, uh, purely for profit rather than having a

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

to it that's outside of that. And I think that when you really, for a lot of people, and certainly the people that relate to her work, when you strip away those kind of concepts of what should I feel, what's the right way to feel? A lot of people find, and I found that what's left is this just And you

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

one side of it is heartbreak. But the other side of that is love. And you know, this is a question that I, I learned, I think in, in Landmark, and it really changed the way that I view problems in my life. They were talking about when things break down, when you have a problem. Why is it a problem? Someone else doesn't have a problem with that. Why do you have a problem with that? And it's not about looking for the, the particular answer to your particular situation. The realization is the problem is that you care. The fundamental problem, the problem, it's, I'm making air quotes, it's not a problem. The, the reason that this is an issue is because you care about it. This happens to be something that you care about. And so you, you go right from problem consciousness, this idea that this is a problem to, oh my God, I care so deeply about this. And, um, that is an incredible shift. And Joanna, her, her work is just. Amazing at, at bringing me into that sense of, yeah. Heartbreak about the, the trajectory that we're on right now and, and completely obliterating life on our planet. And I, and I don't mean, I, I just wanna be clear, I. I don't want to get stuck in concepts here. Like, I don't want to get into like, oh, well, is global warming really happening or is like at another ice age or, I don't wanna get in. I, I, I am not

Adam:

Mm-hmm.

Stephan:

about that. I'm,

Adam:

Mm-hmm.

Stephan:

about we are literally obliterating species. I'm not talking

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

result. Net 10,000 years, net a hundred thousand years. I'm talking about right

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

are obliterating the earth.

Adam:

Mm-hmm.

Stephan:

that feels like heartbreak to me, to me.

Adam:

Yeah. Oh, yes, it does.

Stephan:

um, you don't rationalize our relationship to the world, like, oh, well these things happen. Or yeah, we're humans and we pray on animals. Like, like if you don't rationalize behavior, you, you look at like, no, we're just obliterating it. And it's hard, it's

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

And,

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

us, that leads me to. So much love. I, the reason it's heartbreaking is because I love the world so much and I love others so much, and it takes one out of the sense of individual self in a, like you were saying, of individual self in a cruel and unloving world. And I,

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

with the sense that this. The world is just love. The world is love and it's relationship back and forth, and that sensitivity that we get when we start feeling this is a, it's a feedback cycle. It tells us where we're out of balance. It tells us. What we need to, where those soft spots are, where the tension is that we need to look at and lean into a little bit more, and right away as soon as you get into her work. This isn't something that, you know, you need to spend years and years meditating to try and get, know, a lot of times I've talked about meditation as this, this process that takes some time for a lot of people that you can meditate for months or years and not have a breakthrough. You can do Joanna's, me, Joanna, Macy's, work for. 30 minutes and have a, and really feel the core of awakening.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate you, you sharing that. It, it reminds me of a quote of hers that I very, very much love, she said. The heart that breaks open can contain the whole universe, and, and I think it's worthwhile. Just like really letting those words sink in the heart that breaks open can contain the whole universe. For me, it, it's.

Stephan:

Yeah,

Adam:

it comes to back to compassion and love. I, it hurts so much to see the suffering of others. Because there's care, because there's love. Otherwise it wouldn't affect, it wouldn't affect me. I, I recall, I, I remember, um, in the days after my dad died, and I think I shared with this with you, I went to, um, I was in Istanbul at the time. Uh, I was still processing his death, and we went to this mall. And it was a huge mall. There were people everywhere, um, all different ages. Moms with strollers, toddlers walking around, old people with their walkers, um, and uh, kids running. And it just made me realize like each and every one of those people is gonna lose someone be because it's just a natural part of humanity. We, there are people we love that die. And I know this is not ecology related per se, but the lesson I learned was, oh my gosh, there's so much suffering in the, in the world. There's so much suffering. And I felt my heartbreak open because for the first moment perhaps in my life, I really felt the immensity of the suffering of humanity. And I think with Joanna's work, I feel that. Uh, even on a broader level with the planet, with the natural world, with the species that are, many have numbers in the single digits, uh, before their species are about to get completely lost, uh, to time. And there's this deep sense of, my gosh. What's happening here? And then like this, this deep grief. This deep grief. And the other thing too that I wanna speak to, um, at least, is what occurs to me, the suffering that's happening is so widespread and so global. I feel, I personally sometimes feel a sense of hopelessness, like, what can I do? What can I possibly do? How can I possibly have an impact on, on a problem problem that's so widespread and so huge. Possible impact can I make? And one thing that, um, Joanna talks about repeatedly is actually she, she speaks to something called the shambala prophecy. Um, and that we can become shambala warriors. Maybe it's worthwhile for me to speak to the prophecy a little bit. Um, the prophecy comes from a, uh, a book or a come, comes from a, um, an in a, an initiation, uh, Buddhist initiation called the Ka chakra Tantra. I, I have a book here, but it's not a book per se. It's, it's a, it's a ritual that Buddhists perform, but it has to do with. You know, the, the wheel of time and, and understanding, uh, I'm not gonna do the college chakra tantra any justice, but the aspect within it,

Stephan:

it. You're gonna get it.

Adam:

the, the aspect within it that I wanna talk about is this idea that, um, there is a world, there's a kingdom called shamah, which is not a physical place, it's a state of mind characterized by peace. Mutual respect and interconnection, and where we are right now is a time of great destruction and turmoil where humanity's destructive tendencies is literally creating vast devastation and that there will be a time when individual people, ordinary people. Can recognize that devastation and choose differently, and they can choose and hold an intention to bring about inner peace. They can choose to have love, hold compassion in their heart, as well as insight into the nature of our interconnectedness. And that's again, the two wings of Buddhism. Love and, and insight, or love and wisdom, compassionate wisdom. And Joanna said for those who step up and hold that compassion and insight, they are Shambala warriors and they will bring about this new kingdom in the face of such devastation. And so that's, for me, that's what I, um. Take from Joanna that if we were to apply this prophecy, a assuming that we are in that that time now, and it certainly seems that way. That's what Joanna suggests, that we are at the, you know, in the times that the Shambala prophecy speaks of, then we can each become a shambal warrior, and that's how we do it. We hold compassion and we have insight into the interconnectedness of the planet.

Stephan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

Did I do the prophecy justice?

Stephan:

You, you done all right? No, I think you did

Adam:

I'm doing all right now.

Stephan:

what really, um. I wanna tie it back into, can you read the quote again that you had shared right before you shared that? Because I, to me, they're very related and I want to, I want to

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Um, her quote was, the heart that breaks open can contain the whole universe.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

I.

Stephan:

you. You know, um, God, it's so powerful. Definitely gonna cry.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

Oh God. Um, it's if you to really take that seriously, you know, the, the quote when you really just feel that grief and you don't try to change it. And I think that's very important. And so we've talked about grief a lot, both you and I have. And, um. To me, grief is essential emotion, of the central human, human emotions. And, um, the way through grief to quote unquote, to healing, to, to wholeness is because grief is a, a sense of being broke as something's broken. the way to wholeness is. Not through changing or removing grief, it's through feeling grief fully. And because what emerges when you feel grief fully is love. That's the access point. And so,

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

you know, when Joanna Macy talks about the prophecy of the Shambal Warrior and talks about how, you know, it's ordinary individuals, I think is. Really, um, a key insight into that, and the way I relate to it is you'll know that you're on the right track if you can feel that grief still feel a deep sense of love without, um, being consumed by anger. I think that there are a lot of people that feel that grief very deeply, but the. is anger. They think that the solution to

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

is to be enraged and to attack. And, um, Joanna Mei makes it really clear that the outcome of whatever is going on right now is not settled. And that's a part of the shambal prophecy is that, you know, and we, we will, we will, um, try to share, we will definitely share in the link below, uh, Joanna's interpretation of the prophecy We try and play it at the end of, of this, um, episode as well. And one of the key things is that the outcome isn't certain. Um, grief doesn't get healed by knowing that everything will be okay. I grief is

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

And when you really just feel it and let it take you over, you're. There's no need to be angry. You can just be in grief. And what tends to emerge is this incredibly tender heart. And whereas you could feel the grief of the entire world, you can also love the entire world exactly the way it is. You can love all of the suffering in the world, and I think for me, that's a true mark. Of knowing that you're starting to, you're starting to get what it means to be a shambal warrior in this prophecy. And I think that that's what Joanna was trying to get to. Um, I wanna take it to the next, I want to move on from this and now go to, you know.

Adam:

Well before you do, I, I, I just wanna say I've once heard that a de the definition of, for the definition of spiritual progress is the ability to hold greater and. Greater paradox.

Stephan:

Hmm

Adam:

I, I've, I've once heard that and I feel like you're tapping into it. Like, can you hold a deep sense of grief

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

and, and profound love and compassion

Stephan:

Yeah,

Adam:

at the same time?

Stephan:

yeah, yeah. Thank you. That's a yeah, and that, that's totally true. I agree with that. And so, you know, okay, so we're feeling what we're. Maybe you're following along and, and you, you get it. Something's clicking. Yes, you can feel the grief fully, and you can feel the love for the world it's suffering fully. But what do we do? What, what's, what do we do? Because it's not just necessarily, oh, great. I just feel. And I, there's, I'm just a passive sort of doormat, not even doormat is the wrong word.'cause that's kind of the, the attitude of, you know, someone who's getting walked on or whatever you wanna say. But it's um, you know, Joanna RACI really talks about how the action that comes out of this comes from love. doesn't come from, you can have aspect, there can be anger too. There can be aspects of anger and fury and rage. But it, it can't be a, it can't be a, because they're the bad guys over there. Because this is, this is the whole system. It's, it's not just us, the good guys versus the bad guys. That's, that's not what Joanna Macy is talking about. When you feel that love, you'll be motivated to take action naturally. That love will produce action on its own, and the loving action that you take will be in the highest alignment for you to take for you. I don't want to say more. It's you don't have to individually solve all of the problems of the world. You just have to take the next step in loving action that inspires you. And I think that's, that's really important because it's not about going okay. I feel. The deep sense of love, and I feel the deep sense of grief, and now I need to conceptualize what the best way to take action is According to some sort of like, um, methodology or outlook on life. I, you know, our hearts naturally know how to love people. The, the heart does not need the mind to tell it how to love. And so I

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

key is to, to allow that, that grief and that love to inspire action out of feeling, not out of concept.

Adam:

Mm-hmm. Uh, again, this is another quote from Joanna.'cause I, I love quotes because I also, it speaks to like, I want her words to shine here. So, in light of what you're saying, um, she said, you don't need to do everything. Do what calls your heart. Effective action comes from love. It is unstoppable and it is enough,

Stephan:

yeah.

Adam:

and I love that she ended it that way. Do what calls your heart. Effective action comes from love. It's unstoppable and it is enough. Um, as you were talking, I, I have, you know, this picture I have of, of my desktop on my desktop is of a. Huge, um, valley, a mountain valley with trees. And as you were talking it, it sort of dawned on me going back to that comment that I made about feeling, what can I do? That sense of hopelessness. What can I do in the face of such travesty, global travesty? And I think about the trees are essentially on mass. They are the lungs of the planet. Right. They, they inhale carbon dioxide and they exhale oxygen. And we are the counterpart to that, you know, which is so beautiful to think about plants in general. Like they are, they are the, the counterpart lungs to, to all, to all life. And if, if a single tree took on the job of. Having to purify the world's carbon dioxide, it would be a task that was insurmountable and it would create despair and maybe a sense of hopelessness at the impossibility of the task. But then I, you just look at a tree at how beautifully grounded it is, reaching up to the sky and doing its job. And I'd like to think that each tree does its job of breathing out of love.

Stephan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

Completely present in the moment, completely intertwined and connected with its role on the planet and, and so when I look at a tree, all of that comes at once into me, that when I act out of love, I'm completely and deeply in harmony with. The, the life that is all around me and the actions that come from this being Adam in this part of the planet and in this world with the people that are around me in the relationships that Adam is a, is a part of, is exactly what needs to happen in the moment.

Stephan:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And sometimes that looks like, you know, an act of kindness and sometimes that looks like silence. sometimes it looks like taking some sort of inspired dynamic action like Joanna did, and teaching this to as many people as would listen and, and sometimes it doesn't. And all of those as if they're inspired by that sense of felt love and felt and inspired by inspiration. They're inspired by, inspired. Um, they're, they're the right action. And it's not about. Finding the most utilitarian acts action through concepts. It's about staying in the feeling and letting the feeling inspire you to action in the moment. Because sometimes you won't feel the grief, sometimes you won't feel the love. And it's not about having the right feeling. It's not about, yeah, it's not about having the right feeling. And this is why I think it's, you know. We've been talking for a little bit now, and I want to, I wanna actually into how this relates to awakening because

Adam:

Oh yeah.

Stephan:

talks about awakening to this, you know, this larger sense of self or, and dissolving the individual sense of self. that's, uh, she does it really well. And I, I want to

Adam:

Mm-hmm.

Stephan:

into like and Steven land. Um, you know,

Adam:

There's, there's a land,

Stephan:

the

Adam:

there's an Adam,

Stephan:

there's the

Adam:

so there's, there's like the pure land for Buddhists, right? And there's like heaven, and then we have Adam and Steven land.

Stephan:

Adam's Exactly.

Adam:

knows what's there.

Stephan:

land. I, yeah, don't, not ready to send out invites. Um,

Adam:

I.

Stephan:

you know, for so long, I mean, so long. Even after I had some of the like initial pro, you know, profound awakening experiences. so long, I still thought that waking up was about good, and it was about having the

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

If I just had the answer to this question, I. I would, I would finally wake up I just felt good all the time. Surely, waking up means that you're in bliss constantly. Surely that's what it, because all those cool stories we read about these great awakened beings and how bliss out they are and you know,

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephan:

powers that they have. And it's so, uh, it's so sexy,

Adam:

Uhhuh.

Stephan:

version of awakening, but.

Adam:

Oh sure. Yeah.

Stephan:

But what Joanna's pointing us to is that awakening just looks like really, honestly, feeling what's there right now and, and being inspired by it. Um, it's not about having the

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

concepts in your mind. Sure. There's work that we do. I, I recently, we had an episode where I talked about how to turn the mind into this kind of sword. And to cut, and that's a part of it, but you're not cutting concepts to get to new concepts. You are removing them. And,

Adam:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Stephan:

and then it's about, not about feeling good, it's about just feeling, being able to feel freely without pushing it away or pulling good feelings towards you. to me is really, um, what awakening has come to mean. Um, and it's completely the opposite of some, you know, pie in the sky version that I heard about and tried to reach when I was, um, for most of my life.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. And that makes me think of something that again, you'll, uh, you'll hear for those listening to this, you'll hopefully, if we find out a way to have Joanna Mason's interview. Um, and interpretation of the Shambal prophecy. At the end of our recording here, you'll hear this, but Joanna speaks to the prophecy in that the weapons of destruction, the weapons of mass destruction when this prophecy comes about are man Maya, which is to say mind made. Mano Manas means mind in San Great, and Maya means to, to be formed of. It also means illusion, which I think is fascinating if you in incorporate the

Stephan:

we

Adam:

deeper meaning of that word. But so man, Maya, like the illusions of the mind are forms of the mind. So the weapons are mind made, which then Joanna says means something very powerful. It means they can be undone by the mind. They're made by the mind, they can be unmade by the mind, and that to me is key. For me, that was a super empowering message because like I said, it's very often I, I often have a, I notice there's a tendency in me to feel a sense of despair when I look at. All the terrible things happening in the world, and it's not just ecologically speaking, I'm talking about financial systems. I'm talking about the level of corruption in, in politics, it's, it's terrible. It's terrible. But when I, when I go back to, okay, what action can I take? The tempting solution is there's something out there. I need to say the right words. I need to take the right bodily physical actions. I need to do something. But really the action is at the level of the mind, heart, mind, emotions, and thoughts we go within is what I think Joanna speaks to it. These weapons were made by the mind and they can be unmade by the mind. That's super empowering for me. Wouldn't you say.

Stephan:

Absolutely.

Adam:

mean, that means the solution's, like in your hand, it's, it's within you.

Stephan:

absolutely. I think this gets into, um, a bit of a question of what is a weapon, right? Because you could look at the weapon

Adam:

Mm.

Stephan:

say like, okay, uh, you know, Joanna, for example, talks a lot about nuclear devastation.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

say, well, the weapon is literally a nuclear bomb. And okay, it's mind made because the a, a mind actually made it so it can be literally unmade. We could figure out a way with our minds to unmake it, I, I also think that the weapons of the mind that are made by the mind are our mental tendencies to. Put things into categories of good and bad and judge things and attack things. And those, to me are also weapons that are mind made. when she says that, I, I, I took her literal her, you know, maybe the, the meaning of, okay, yeah, we could find a way to denuclearize the world and not live under this constant threat of nuclear obliteration, but also that the entire idea of. and other can be undone by the

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

which is something that we've talked about, uh, here in, in a lot of our recent episode, which is that, you know, the ego, the mind is the thing that ultimately undoes itself. And that to me, I think is a, is another fun, fun, cute little level of meaning to,

Adam:

Yeah,

Stephan:

prophecy. It's not

Adam:

well probably

Stephan:

It's not just

Adam:

the level.

Stephan:

Yeah, sure. I don't, yeah, I don't wanna, I don't, I don't know. You know, the, the, the level of disarming nuclear bombs is also a fantastic level to work at. We should do that too with our, we should use our minds to those solutions too.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair.

Stephan:

but I, I think you have to. Right. Anyway.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

just wanted to share that, that, you know, what do we mean by weapon? Um,

Adam:

Well, well actually let, this is great. I love this. I, that kind of lit me up too,

Stephan:

I

Adam:

be

Stephan:

your approval.

Adam:

You have my approval always. Well, well, something that I, that really lit me up and what you just said was, um, something that I see often with activists. Okay, if, if the weapon of the mind going into this sort of level that you're talking about is the mental tendency to attack, to project and blame, let, let's go straight to a very common, um, a common tendency is we see the devastation of the planet. Why does this happen? Why is the Amazon being destroyed? Because fundamentally it's for profits. Corporate greed. Okay. Corporate greed. It it, that's happening on person to person level. It's not just the corporation, right? The CEO, the, the C-suite, the board of directors, they're beholden to the shareholders. The shareholders want profit right then. Then it does not matter how that profit is achieved for that particular mindset.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

And so it's natural for an activist to demonize that group to hate and you know, it just. Go on YouTube. You can watch the videos of the, the vitriol, the hatred that some activists feel. I mean, I don't wanna, you know, point out. Yeah, I mean, really you could, you can, you can feel it. And you just watch one of that famous Greta Thunberg video, I think, where she speaks to the UN and, and she, you could see that her face getting contorted and she said how you should be ashamed of yourselves, you know, when she's speaking to, to the leaders. I have nothing against Greta Thunberg, but I'm just saying like that tendency to really hate, that's a weapon.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

a mind weapon there. The only thing that comes from that level of hatred when you see the other person as another, as an enemy is destruction.

Stephan:

Mm-hmm.

Adam:

Destruction comes from that weapon.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

And it's funny if an activist goes there, if he goes there or she goes there and attacks internally, even at the level of their own mind. They are I, I mean this with all due respect, but they are the same. They are doing the same thing. They're utilizing the same weapon that their quote unquote enemies are using. And that's why I feel this is so important when we say we to undo. Those, that weapon, it always starts first with yourself.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

So the question is to, to the listeners out there, is there, and I could, I'll, I'll own this too. Is there an aspect of of my life. Where I am hating another person where I am projecting blame onto another person where I'm not taking ownership, but rather saying that the ter, the terrible aspects of my life are because of this other person or this other situation.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

mental tendency is what we're speaking about and what Joanna's referring to, I think.

Stephan:

Yeah, absolutely. And from the, I guess, you know, and I, I think Joanna talks about this, but I'm not as, I'm not as fluent in Joanna's language, so I'm gonna kind of rephrase it in in my own language. And it's very related to what you were saying is that, you know, if we, and this is through my own experience, as well as kind of the. Fundamental understanding of like Buddhism, right? Tibetan Buddhism. The fundamental understanding is that we are all already Buddhists. That's the highest teaching. So if we're already Buddhists, we're covering it up with something, we're covering up with delusion. And so the path is to remove delusion. And what is the delusion? The delusion is the hate, the anger, the, the self and the other. I mean, we just did a, we just did an episode on the. On, on Zen, and there's the Diamond Sutra, which is this amazingly profound sutra about there's no self in other. And, um, when you, in my experience in myself and seeing it in others, when you have gone to those parts and, and to yourself that hate and let them dissolve and ask, why do I hate? Because it's the same question that we started with. Why is there a problem? Hate is that we don't want to feel hate. No one likes feeling hate. No one likes hating anything. it, there's a reason it's uncomfortable when we lash out because we're trying to get rid of the feeling

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

we think that if I express this feeling, it's going to make things better for me at a feeling level. You can break this down into the nerve, the way the nervous system functions. I'm not gonna do that, so, but. When you, when you see in yourself that what's underneath the hate that you feel love is a desire to love and be loved, you can start understanding that every one of us is the same. The people that hate the, the same people that are unaware, the people that hate, they all just want, love that the love is fundamental to me. And so when you see it's, so this is, this is what transforms it from becoming a us versus them a, I'm gonna hate you back because that's gonna solve the problem. When you see that the people that are the quote unquote bad guys are just versions of yourself that haven't yet seen that all they want is love. Then you can hold, you can be the target of their hate and still love them because you know that the hate isn't real. The hate is just a lashing out and a feeling because they don't feel loved. And I think that is what really lets you be in action, is when you can say, yes, you're just like me. I know what it's like to hate too, I know what's underneath it, and I'm gonna be here and I'm gonna let you hate me. As long as it takes for you to get that.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

I think that

Adam:

Wow.

Stephan:

that's so fundamental to actually creating, to unmaking the weapons of the mind.'cause that's

Adam:

Yeah,

Stephan:

weapon of the mind.

Adam:

he, he touched upon such an important topic there. It reminds me of a very well-known quote now, um, that all, all behavior is either an expression of love or a call for love.

Stephan:

Mm-hmm.

Adam:

And if we see it in that frame, then we see the people who are hating and lashing out and attacking or devastating the planet or, you know, look, looking at their own self interests. It's a call for love. They don't know it on a conscious level, but like you just pointed out, the deep, deep inner drive is they, they don't feel loved and they're calling out for love and they do not know how to do it. And so they do it in a maladaptive way.

Stephan:

Yeah. Yeah. Like we create

Adam:

And

Stephan:

structures, we create, we, we create these structures to, to stop feeling it. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

Um, because it hurts and we don't know how to be with the hurt, which comes back to the Joanna's fundamental teaching of the work that reconnects is. You have to feel what's going on. Without, and one of, I love, I love what Joanna says. She says, don't let people pathologize what you feel. a tendency to say, like, if you feel, if you just break down from grief at the thought of the world being destroyed, that there's some, you're, you're crazy. Like you need, you need to get yourself together. Joanna's saying. You don't, and you shouldn't. Don't let it become a pathology. Just feel it fully. if, and if you feel like you're gonna break, then, then feel like you're gonna break. Don't,

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

it with a pathology. And, um, that is, that is so key to, to breaking through. Finding that love underneath it is to not,

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

the process with the mind, not to pathologize it and to be okay If other

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

think that something's wrong with you, that's okay. That's,

Adam:

Yeah, so be it.

Stephan:

Don't stop

Adam:

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's so, it's so, so subtle. It's so subtle. Uh, e even there's not pathologizing it, but there's also don't rationalize it.

Stephan:

Yeah, I think

Adam:

Just be with,

Stephan:

guess you could,

Adam:

yeah.

Stephan:

version of pathology. Pathologizing is

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

you have a diagnosis and rationalizing it is

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

and like reflect and, you know, make it a, is it a good,

Adam:

Like you don't need to give it a reason

Stephan:

yeah.

Adam:

for, for being. Um, and it also reminds me of this idea of which we talked about zero resistance to what is. Zero. And if, if what is, is grief and terror. And I think terror also too applies to, you know, the end of the world, right? Uh, are we gonna see the end of the world? And not to be doom and gloom, but like if that's the emotion that's arising, then zero resistance to that.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

Be with that, be with that. Uh, I think the, um, you know, these, these. Mind weapons that we're speaking to, I could probably go so far as to say, arise from an inability to be with what is

Stephan:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh,

Adam:

the, the inability to be with what? Yeah.

Stephan:

agree.

Adam:

It's like I cannot be with the, the suffering that I feel on an unconscious level, and so I will do X, y, z, defensive mechanisms, attacks, projections to, to run away from it.

Stephan:

Yeah, and I, I think, um, you know, I would express it and say that just like Joanna Ma, and Macci breaks apart this small sense of self and gets us in touch with feeling this larger self, which is the ecological world. The entire ecological system that breaks apart the sense of self. I think it's important to, when we start to get into these, this deep, deep feeling world, to understand that the feeling is not us either. The feeling is just a feeling, and it's

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

This is, this comes back to the pathologizing, but this is one of the things that has stopped me for a long time, is that the feeling means something. The feeling means something about me. And I, the feeling doesn't mean anything

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

me. It's just a feeling. And it's Joanna Macy the way if my understanding is corrected, I'm not, I'm not unbelievably, widely read on Joanna. I'm trying to do her justice is that that feeling is what tells us something's out of balance. We use that feeling to, to feel what's out of balance. Um. So, so pay attention to it, to feel it deeply, but not use it as a, it means something about me, it's natural to feel it. It's also natural to feel it, but it doesn't mean something's wrong with you for feeling it. So that, that goes back to not, not pathologizing and not letting other people pathologizing it and not pathologizing yourself. Um, and just to understand like, yeah, terror, like there's not something wrong with you if you feel these things. It's, it's, it means you're deeply connected to. going on in the world?

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd like to, um.

Stephan:

You got

Adam:

Share another quote.

Stephan:

thank

Adam:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and this is a little bit a, a lighter quote to be alive in this beautiful self-organizing universe to participate in the dance of life with senses to perceive it, lungs that breathe it, organs that draw nourishment from it is a wonder beyond words.

Stephan:

Mm. Wow.

Adam:

I just, Joanna, she exuded such deep reverence for life.

Stephan:

Mm.

Adam:

I, I've never met her, obviously in person, but. Thus far, after reading her work, watching videos of her watching the Passion with which she speaks, there's this great YouTube video of, um, a speech that she gave at the ERs conference. Um, actually she, from what I gathered, gave a talk at that conference several times. Um, she's so passionate, so fierce and fiery, uh, in her call to action. Which is, it's very clear that it does not come from hate, but it comes from a deep love and cherishing, um, and like I said, a reverence for life all around her.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

It's the wonder beyond words. I, I like how she put that.

Stephan:

It's um. You know, one of when you feel without resisting

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

have this movement, um, you know, uh, like ne I think it's, I'm gonna try and do a director quote here. Uh, you said, you

Adam:

Uh, you're gonna butcher it.

Stephan:

Love tells me I'm everything and between is where

Adam:

Uh,

Stephan:

And, and to me, this is

Adam:

wait, say that again. Say that again, because it's so good.

Stephan:

uh, wisdom tells me I'm nothing. Love tells me I'm everything between the two, my life flows. This is that you have moments of deep understanding and moments of deep feeling love. And between those two are all sorts of experiences. And the point isn't to stop the flow of ex, like I've said before in this, this episode, you know, it's not about having the right experience, it's, it's about letting experience flow. Feeling, thought, whatever flow, unimpeded. And I think what I think what Joan is pointing to, if I could, you know, I don't wanna say bastardize it, but put it in my own words, is that when you stop fighting what is, and you really start to feel these feelings deeply, after a while, there could be a sense of ecstasy at feeling them. Even the, the, the pain, there's an ecstasy that comes, like, isn't it amazing that we get to be alive? Isn't it amazing that we get to feel this deeply? Um, and yes, sometimes it's heartbreaking and sometimes it's amazing and, and isn't, that this moment that we get to share. Isn't this just incredible?

Adam:

Yes, it is. Yeah. I feel that in your sharing. That's so precious. It's so amazing. Wow. There's so much to say about Joanna. I think she's touched.

Stephan:

but.

Adam:

She's touched so many lives, she really has, and she will continue to touch lives with her work and her expression and her life really is a testament to someone who is living in the flow, who lived in such a way that her actions, um, came from a place of deep caring and deep love,

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

amazingly, uh, uh, demonstrated the ability to take. Profound philosophical truths, at least within the Buddhist tradition, and very much apply it to the modern world and the, the modern troubles that we seem to have appear to have.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

Well, um, I guess what I'd like to, um, close with. Again, maybe another quote, um, but also it's, you know, a se a call to action for, for those listening. And we're gonna have a, I think it's about an eight minute. Clip. Um, if we're somehow unable to add the clip at the end of this video or, or audio, um, please go to the show notes. Look, click on the YouTube link. It'll be there as well. And, uh, and watch this for yourself. So here's the quote. If the world is to be healed, it will be by ordinary people. People whose love for this life is even greater. Their fear. And so in that respect, I would say let us love, let us show up individually in our own unique way, in a way that is, uh, our own expression of love and, and let our hearts be open.

Stephan:

Perfect. I have nothing else to add to that.

Adam:

Well, thank you all and once again, thank you, um, to our friend Dayton, and thank you most importantly to Joanna and for her life and for her legacy.

Stephan:

gratitude to Joanna and what she has given this world.

Adam:

I will see you, Steven. I. On some other episode,

Stephan:

Sounds good, Adam. I'll talk to you later.

Adam:

bye.

Stephan:

Bye.