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Embody Enlightenment Now with Adyashanti's The End of Your World

• Adam Rizvi

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Exploring Adyashanti's 'The End of Your World'

Stephan and Adam dive into Adyashanti's 'The End of Your World' and share their honest thoughts and personal experiences about the long process of embodying enlightenment after moments of realization. From the pitfalls of spiritual awakening to the simple beauty of being present, they cover it all with warmth, humor, and a sprinkle of cheekiness. Tune in to find out what it's like when spiritual journeys go off script and how honesty can be the game-changer you didn't know you needed. Grab your favorite drink, sit back, and enjoy this adventure through the world of spirituality with a side of laughs.

00:00 Reconnecting
00:54 Discussing 'The End of Your World' by Adyashanti
03:10 Dissolution and Reality
05:08 Challenges and Realizations in Awakening
09:37 Waking Up is Like a Rocket
11:14 Personal Awakening Experiences
16:57 The Importance of Honesty
26:38 Traps and Pitfalls on the Spiritual Path
31:58 The Ego's Voice: Convincing You That Now is Not Okay
32:43 The Simplicity of 'I Am': Insights from Adyashanti
33:31 Questioning Reincarnation: A Personal Reflection
35:23 The Trap of Concepts: How They Shape Our Lives
36:40 Understanding Adyashanti: Background and Teachings
40:42 Awakening in the Present Moment
43:06 The Impact of Future Obsession on the Present
46:36 Practical Advice for Overcoming Future Obsession
54:45 Final Thoughts and Reflections

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Copyright 2025 by Letters to the Sky

Adam:

Dr. Downs, it's good to see you.

Stephan:

Dr. Risby. Oh, that's an old joke. That's an old joke

Adam:

I haven't called you Dr. Downs.

Stephan:

know right when

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

school and was gonna be a doctor

Adam:

Mm-hmm.

Stephan:

And then I saw you just get more and more burnt out and

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

through it. I, not just you, a lot of doctors I knew go through the amount of burnout that you go through and, and then the whole thing about my grades weren't good enough. I mean, that didn't help either. I.

Adam:

Yeah, I think, I don't think you've missed much. Uh, I think the path that you chose is beautiful and perfect, and it's exactly what needed to happen.

Stephan:

Thank you. Well, we're not talking about medicine today. We

Adam:

I.

Stephan:

about a lovely book that you and I both just read or, or listened to, which is the End of Your World by Shanti. And this is, you know. I, I don't know all the spiritual teachers out there. I, I certainly don't, I'm not incredibly well read, I suppose. I know a lot of them now. Um, but a Ashanti is one that I had never really looked into and, uh, this book was incredible. It was really incredible. I think it was one of the most useful down to earth guides about. A spiritual path that I've ever read.

Adam:

Yeah, I've heard about Ante for many years. Never really dived into his work. Uh, and I think I watched a handful of his YouTube videos in the past, but this was the first deep dive into his material and I'm glad you recommended it. Actually, there's something special about hearing his voice. That really did something for me as opposed to reading it on in text. Like, hi, his voice sort of, maybe you wanna call it transmission. I think his voice carries something. It carries something that, uh, resonated.

Stephan:

yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And so it, it was essentially. How are the way, how do they describe it? They described it as almost like an audio course, and so it really felt like that it was broken into distinct sections. I mean, you can call them chapters. I mean, why not in an audio book? But it felt really distinct and there was some musical transitions. It was really nice, a really nice product, and I agree listening to him. Him say it in his own words was really important. But anyway, so we, if you haven't read this book yet, the End of Your World by a Ashanti, um, definitely read it. It was, uh, an exceptional book. We both got a lot out of it and we've kind of picked out some of the juicier parts that, uh, we both really related to. And I know we both loved some, some of the same parts. So we'll definitely talk about that.

Adam:

I wanna make a point that I, I find very interesting, um, just a synchronistic maybe, uh, fascinating tidbit. The title is The End of Your World, and to me, one of my favorite books is The Disappearance of the Universe.

Stephan:

Mm-hmm.

Adam:

I just find it interesting that both titles speak to

Stephan:

Mm-hmm.

Adam:

the dissolution of one's reality. I, I do. I I do think it's, it's interesting, like it's pointing to something, right?

Stephan:

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. We can get to what we can maybe get into what that something is.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm just curious, how did you find this book, first of all, and, and what drew you to it?

Stephan:

I wish I knew how I found it. I honestly don't remember. Um, maybe I was just like talking to, I think it was probably

Adam:

it's probably an algorithm

Stephan:

Yeah, I think I was talking to chat GPT about, um, someone of the kinda like top books on awakening that were really relatable. Um, because I'd been listening to a lot of like, pure advice of ATA and it was getting very heady and I was kinda like, I need a, I need a break. I need a break from that book. So gimme another book. And, uh, I think this was just on the list and I just checked it out. And then honestly, the, you know, I started reading it on Kindle and it was, it was. It was fine, but then listening to it, I decided to pick it up on Audible so I could listen to it, like going on walks and that was, that was really special. So I think that's how I think I found it through chat, GPT. Thanks. Chat.

Adam:

That's a, that's a good use of chat g pt Wow. Or any AI really,

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

uh, as a, a book recommendation. Cool. Okay, great. Well, I'm glad you did and I'm glad Chat recommended it. Uh, and I agree Audible was the ideal way to consume that. Well, I don't know. How do you wanna tackle this? What, how did it touch you? What topics, uh, leapt out at you?

Stephan:

I think just in. In general, this, one of the reasons why this book really touched me is it's really hard to find good information about awakening. Um, it's very easy to find information about getting to the point where you have a big breakthrough. you and I, and probably most of the people listening to this could quote it as nausea. It's the, it's. All the advice we've always gotten about, you know, a little bit more renunciation, a little bit more focus, um, a little bit more devotion, a little bit, you know, a little bit, a little more of all these different like spiritual qualities and, and which we'll talk about because he has this whole section on, you know, building the momentum that, you know, a rocket ship leaving the earth's gravity needs a certain amount of momentum behind it. And so it's kind of like that phase of life is all this momentum building. I think for a lot of people, we've all had, um, deeper, you know, realizations about ourselves and about the nature of reality and, you know, I of different strengths and at different times in our lives. And I think once you have that, the path changes a bit, because things are stop appearing so clear you know, you thought you reached a point of a breakthrough. things are still falling apart. And you thought that once you had that breakthrough, that everything was supposed to be great. And the reality is that things only get harder. The

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

a different set of tools to deal to, to work through them. And so I, this was one of those books that really for me, hit some really good notes very honestly about. What it's like posts, you know, some sort of realization, um, which I think everyone, you know, there's probably a reason why it's very popular. So a very common time of an experience, of confusion. Um, and, and I think like most people have had those. Moments, certainly people who've been practicing a while have had those moments where there's a fundamental shift, but then you're left kind of in the lurch because the old advice doesn't really apply to you in the same way anymore. What about you?

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. No, those are all really good points. Uh, one thing that struck me about this book is there is a lot of time spent. If not the majority of the book was spent on the post awakening period,

Stephan:

Mm-hmm.

Adam:

which is very helpful. It's very, very helpful because it applies to, um, both the people who have moments of realization. But maybe there is lingering karmic residue or, or there are habitual tendencies that haven't really gone away, um, that keep the sense of identification, um, and the separate self intact. But he also speaks to the process of having, uh, a consistent awakening. And I think the term he used was abiding. Abiding awareness where it's, it's not just a momentary glimpse of realization, but you, you abide in that you are in that state and it hasn't, doesn't go away.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

And, and then the whole spectrum in between. I love that so much of the book is spent in that latter phase because it does really, it, it, the tools used at that point. You can start using it pre awakening. It's the same foundational approach to consciousness, to to awareness. It's, it's presence. It's, um, a non-attachment to what arises. Um, he speaks to, to the stickiness of thoughts. Um, he speaks to the tendencies of, of thoughts and belief patterns to form a knot around themselves, giving the impression of a, of a, of a sense of self. And you actually touched upon this. He, he talks about this rocket ship analogy, which I really, really like that, that, um, struck me. Uh,

Stephan:

into it? You wanna

Adam:

yeah.

Stephan:

give, give us the, an overview of what that analogy is and

Adam:

Well, the idea is, um, you know, when you wanna launch a rocket, the. The output of the, of the engines need to overcome gravity. So gravity is this force that's pulling the rocket down and you can turn on the, the engines and blast off. But if the, if the strength doesn't actually overcome the force of gravity, it's at a standstill. Um, similarly, like the rocket can launch, could leave. The surface, but it never actually makes it to space because maybe the engine's putter out and there's not enough sustained force to actually break the gravity well and go into, you know, low earth orbit and then into space. Um, and so he has, it's a great analogy'cause it's, it's sort of. This idea of some people have this sort of glimpse of space, but there's not enough momentum that the rocket crashes back to earth. Whereas some people maybe there is a sustained momentum and the rocket actually breaks free of gravity and, and then you abide in, in that realization. Um, and it doesn't make it wrong or right. Um, because it could be that, that initial experience of glimpsing what's past. The planet and coming back to surface is what creates the momentum for a future experience of breaking free of gravity altogether.

Stephan:

So have you, um, have there

Adam:

I think.

Stephan:

in, have there been times in your life when you have,

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

you were in space, then all of a

Adam:

I.

Stephan:

you're like, oh no, gravity's still here.

Adam:

Yeah, I, I recall, um, many, many years ago when, when I was in my twenties, I had this immensely profound falling away of, of the sense of self. Um, I was in the Le Ling. Monastery in Southern France. Um, and I was actually at a retreat with, uh, Rimpoche after having read his book, uh, the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. Um, and I remember doing, I remember meditating and struggling, like really struggling'cause I was trying to focus on my breath. I forget exactly what I was focusing on, but I had this beautiful vista in front of me. It's a huge, vast valley. In Southern France, absolutely gorgeous. And it was sunset time roughly, and I just could not do the practice. Uh, and there was so much built up, struggle and resistance around what was happening.'cause I just couldn't do it. That I remember telling, telling myself, you know what, you know. Forget this meditation. I'm just gonna enjoy the weather. And I, I gave up in that moment, I just gave up. I was halfway through the thought, I'm just gonna enjoy the weather. When something happened and it felt like a snap, like a, like something popped open and the, the visceral experience was. My sense of identity, my sense of self leaked through my eyes and spilled into the valley, and Adam disappeared. Like it, it was clearly seen that Adam was a construct that made no sense and had no inherent reality, and all that was was the valley. And the space that the valley held and the mountains and the, and the clouds. And it wasn't even an identification of those objects. It was, it just was the, the pure presence of nature before me. Um. And I remember resting in that space for, for, it felt like a long time, but it was probably just a few minutes, and then gradually that sort of, in that sense of self sort of coalesced back to the physical body, but it, it didn't completely go back to the way things were. And then I remember in the months after that. There was a rebound and it sort of, I remember I, I went back to the states and there's a lot of turmoil and suffering and a really strong sense of identity reasserted itself after that. And I felt like I had lost something. Uh, and I think that's a very classic experience for a lot of people. You glimpse something profound and then you rebound back. Uh, that to me was a rocket ship that went up. And just did not have momentum because nothing had been built up. I was very young and early in the spiritual path, and the rocket ship just crashed right back down. I, I've, I've had, I've since had longer experiences where you could say maybe the rocket entered lower earth orbit and kind of. Went around a couple times before coming back to to Earth. Uh, I can't, I can't say that I'm way out in space yet. I, I don't know if there's an abiding awareness, but I will say that, um, uh, these days there's not a moment where the, the sense of of, of a self, um. Adam, uh, isn't seen through it. It's pretty obvious, pretty clear that it's a construct. Um, but now it's a matter of, well, how does that construct relate to the world? Um, what, what words come out of its mouth? What actions does it take? Um, sometimes there seems to be a resistance to what is, uh, and other times there isn't, and there's just action occurring.

Stephan:

Mm-hmm. So what do you think, um, what do you think that momentum is? That take, you know,'cause you know, you're, you're describing a moment where you were

Adam:

Good question.

Stephan:

and then releasing, and somehow there was some sort of momentum that, you know, in the terms of the, this analogy that kind of, you left, you left the pull of gravity and, you know, is, do you think that's something that you can generate or do you think it's something that just happens? What, what do you think, where do you, where do you weight those two?

Adam:

Yeah, it's a great question. At the end of the book, AA Ashanti is being interviewed by, I think. Tammy Simon with Sounds True. And there I don't, I don't recall the question, but she's asking about whether the struggles that he had along the journey were worthwhile.

Stephan:

Mm-hmm.

Adam:

he said, yes. Every challenge, every struggle, every book he read, every teacher he was with, served its purpose and brought him to where he was. Uh, I, I do think that the challenges we go through and the steps along the spiritual path, they serve their purpose. And maybe the purpose is to, to help build the momentum for the rocket ship to, to leave.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Um, I know for you, honesty was a really big topic. Um. Could you maybe tell more about what landed for you there?

Stephan:

Yeah. So pretty early on in the book there's a a chapter about honesty. And, you know, I just starts off talking about a story of one of his retreats where he really, he, he starts having this talk about how, you know, to be awake means to be completely vulnerable and honest and to, um. Uh, just, yeah, just, just be honest, not, not hide and run from yourself and what's going on and, and what is for you. And he describes these, uh, he talks about a couple who come back the next day and they, they share that, you know, they, they were up until like 3:00 AM or something like that, just talk. They were, they were having trouble in their marriage and, you know, they were considering divorce and they just sat down and were just both just. honest with each other about what was going on for each one without trying to protect, without trying to, you know, get control and, and position oneself and to a place of safety and how it had been probably the best night of their lives the middle of this, you know, going through a, potentially going through a divorce and, he, he really shared how. When we're really on the reason why we don't like being honest, and I don't mean like blatantly lying to people. I, I mean just like we're not honest with ourselves. We're not honest. When we are scared of something, when there's tension. I know for myself, I've, you know, there's been so many times in my life and, and everyone will relate to this, where asks how you are and you say you're fine, and everything's great. And it's not a matter of nicety, it's just like you could convince yourself that everything's great. I think, you know, maybe, maybe you know that things aren't as great as they seem like them to be. um, he really talks about how when you are that honest, you give up control. And that when we, when we deceive ourselves and we deceive others, we are doing it to gain control of other people. Because if we don't tell the whole truth, we shape it in a way that we know won't get us in trouble, or we know doesn't really expose us. We know we're not gonna get what we're afraid of. We're not gonna get the, you know, the reaction that we're maybe afraid of, which is why we're not telling the truth in the first, the whole truth in the first place. And really about controlling and protecting a sense of self that can be hurt. If it goes the wrong way. And, um, I, I really related to this, uh, I, I, this is, you know, for a long time in my life I've kind of seen this edge of honesty of just self-honesty. There was a long time when I really was not honest about where I. Where I was, I was, you know, I'd had, just like you, I had a very profound awakening experience when I was younger, and in fact, just like Aja did, like he shared,

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

I added about the same age as him as well, and about 24, 25, and. Um, for a while there was like, really, there's something I had left Earth orbit or whatever you wanna call it, and then tension started to creep back in, but I completely covered it up and I tried to keep getting back to that state of awakening. And I spent years and years and years just in denial of that and to the point where my life completely fell apart. Um, I lost, like, I lost my job. I, know, it just, life fell apart for me, um, because I was just in denial about, about that. And so I really related to this chapter and, you know, I, I still, it's an ongoing practice to really be honest, and it's, you know, he makes a distinction, which I think is really important. He being honest isn't like, Hey Adam, I really don't like you and here's why I don't like you. That's not the kind of honesty. It's not like you just blurt whatever comes out of your mouth because you're no longer censored. That's, that's not what he's talking about. He's really clear. It's about, um, how are you with yourself? You know? Are there places you're still experienced tension? Do you still fear the unknown? Do you still fear, um. You, you don't want certain things to come out about your life, about your past, about who you think you are. Um, you know, really? What are you hiding? Um. That kind of honesty, not about just like, I'm just free and uncensored and I don't really

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

what anyone thinks about me.'cause you know, we're all enlightened or things like that. And so, I, I, I really related because it's been a central part of my path and, you know, um, one of the, in my relationship with my wife, I know for a long time I would. You know, I do most of, a lot of my processing internally. I don't really verbalize my process. so oftentimes, like in, in my relationship with my wife, that I would come to these conclusions about myself or the direction of my life, and I would just like drop them on her. like, she would have no, she would just be like, blindsided by it and, and really feel that like she wasn't in the relationship. You know, they're like, oh, here's, oh, Steven over here just making wild decisions about his life, but we're married and why are, you know, like, where am where am I in the, in the process? And um, you know, I, I really, I think just one example of this honesty, at a certain point, I took a really hard look at, her feedback at her, what she was pointing out. And I, I realized that was a part of me that wasn't opening up to her because I was. Afraid that, um, whatever transformation was going on was gonna get stopped somehow by

Adam:

wow.

Stephan:

opening up to her. And that, like, if I opened up to her, that it would, it would, it would stop in its tracks or it would become ruined or something like that. all the while missing that, like the relationship itself is also that process

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

and in fact, by opening up and, and being. Being honest about that, that actually provided a huge amount of integration, not just in my own life, but in a relationship. And it was like, you know, I know we've talked a lot about, on our podcast about how we can use what the ego is pointing out as kind of where you go. And this is, this is more of this, you know, it's very uncomfortable to have that conversation to like admit that like. I'm not sharing with you because I don't want it to get ruined as if like me, like, like sharing it is gonna expose it and then it's gonna, she's gonna like hack it to bits,

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephan:

which is all made up in my mind. And, and it just prevented me from really being in, know, in a, in a partnership for a long time. So that's kind of an, an example where, where it's really touched my life and I found his chapter really illuminating and he even has this one line in it, um, you know. Being awake means being willing to be crucified.

Adam:

Mm.

Stephan:

like it

Adam:

Wow.

Stephan:

do with the outcome.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

It is not because if you're honest, you'll get good things.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

honesty is the highest order, is is always in the highest good.

Adam:

Yeah. Uh, I do appreciate there's a lot that you shared there. Thank you. The, the comment that you made about honesty isn't just the. Verbal garbage, uh, where you just tell someone what you feel because, um, you're not holding back and, and you're not being politically correct. He does actually explicitly make a point that doing that is projection. You're, you're projecting your own insecurities, your own beliefs about yourself onto someone else. So for me it was, it's honesty with discernment, you.

Stephan:

That's a

Adam:

It's, it is honestly with discernment because then you, you have to realize, okay, if that's what, what you wanna be honest about, ask yourself. Is that really just projection? And then underneath the projection, that's where the honesty then lies. What the, what's the projection? The projection is always this, another side of a coin, and that other side is repression. And this every psychological textbook will tell you this right before project. There's, there's repression. You first repress and then you project. That's just the dynamic. So then the question is, okay, well what did you, what did you repress? What belief about yourself are you unwilling to see? That you've had to defend yourself in the form of a projection. And that's what I think he's talking about. Can you go deep enough? Can you discern deep enough and be honest with yourself? I, I, I, the, the honesty with self is really profound. One of the biggest aspects of, of the honesty chapter for me.

Stephan:

yeah,

Adam:

Can I be honest with myself?

Stephan:

Yeah. One of the, um. The next parts that really stuck out for me was his section on traps and pitfalls.

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

um, do you mind if we go into that?

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. I think he also used the term cul-de-sacs. Is that like

Stephan:

think he used the

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

Yeah, exactly. And

Adam:

Like

Stephan:

is

Adam:

you wanna go further, but you can't.

Stephan:

yeah, it's this, like, you get, you know, you get a little detour for a while

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

um, you know, I love the way that he framed them. So a lot of times, um. People will use the word spiritual bypassing here. I think this is a great, um, synonym for what he's talking about a lot of people say like, oh, spiritual bypassing is like this negative thing that like you want to avoid and like you always have to be on guard for. ADIA is really honest. He says that most people who. Go through awakening processes, go through these stages. You know, the, the people who have these unbelievably profound, instantaneous full awakenings are extraord, extraordinarily rare.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

are, those are the, by far, the rarity, the, the rare recurrence, the most part in his experience as a teacher is people who wake up, wake up in stages, he kind of listed these different types of. Of pitfalls, you know, of, of thinking that the experience you had the truth and then trying to hold onto that experience like I had described earlier, I I did that for, for what, like 15 years of my life? I mean like,

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

was in that cul-de-sac for a long time. But his notion is ba is idea is basically that these are normal stages. Of, of the awakening process. They don't

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

something wrong. They don't mean that you're, you're stuck. Stuck. And they're just, they're places that people tend to end up for various amounts of time.

Adam:

There, there's something, um, I, I do, I don't wanna interrupt you. There's just something that he said about that, that, uh, I remembered, which is that when you have an awakening, he's like, I don't care what experience you had in the past. I, I love when he's. De described, um, a student or two that came to him to share with him a about something that they experienced in the past. Like, oh, I had this realization two weeks ago or, or a year ago. And, and he says, well, I don't care. How about now? What's your experience now? Because that's all there is. It's now if, if, if you're thinking about something in the past, then that, that's just a concept. It's just a memory. Uh, what is it right now? What's your experience now? And I loved it because there really is. This, there's only ever this, uh, and it's this amazing ingenuity of the ego to co-opt an experience and to make it about itself. Then, then the experience of realization becomes, uh, more armor around the identity.

Stephan:

Yeah, and it's so, I mean, thi this ties to me, this ties back to honesty, you know, like you could, the way you get out of the cul-de-sac is by being really honest with yourself. you know,

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

you're right. Since I did have this. Experience this hugely profound experience. It does mean I'm awakened. You know, that's a total, total cul-de-sac or you know, am so good, so good. I've done this practice for so long and I've done so many rep repetitions of this practice. So that means that I'm a very serious practitioner who's gone a long way. you know, thinking that the. Yeah, the past has any bearing on the present. And, and what's, like you said, what is alive for you right now? You know, what's alive for me right now is I'm like, I'm exhausted. Uh, my neck hurts. Um, I, I feel kind of, you know. Blah, in some ways is kind of neutral. Like, you know, there's, there's a part of me that would also, you know, or the past would've, you asked me how I was, would've said like, I'm doing great, and like, awakening is progressing smoothly. You know, like, like kind of couching it in these spiritual ideas.

Adam:

Oh yeah,

Stephan:

and these, these spiritual frames of reference, instead of just being like, actually today just is, today's just shitty.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just being real, being honest with yourself mostly. You don't need to,

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

to like say all this to other people

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

then that, that becomes a trap,

Stephan:

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Adam:

right? Like, look, look how authentic I am. Look, look how, look how real.

Stephan:

Wow. Incredible. Yeah. You know, it always, like this is an ous language, but this is, this is the way I frame it is, um, always trying to get somewhere else. Like you're

Adam:

Mm.

Stephan:

it in a spiritual context so that whatever is now can be different in the future.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

I that's, that's one of the, ways that I tend to relate to it is like, am I really, am I trying to change what is, uh,

Adam:

good. Yeah. It's, it's so good. I, I. I was talking to, to my mom actually earlier this morning and, uh, just sharing with her that fundamentally the ego is a voice that will co convince you in many, many different ways that now is not okay.

Stephan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam:

That that.

Stephan:

you, I feel like you could really break down every. Problem in life to now is not okay.

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah. And you need to do, and you need to do something about it

Stephan:

You

Adam:

now is not okay.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Um, Aja Ashanti also says something, um, fairly profound. Uh, he says, the only thing I know is that I am. I really appreciated that. The only thing I know is that I am, there's a sort of simplicity to that, and aside from that, I don't know anything. And I forget, uh, he, he was maybe a little self-deprecating. He was probably saying like, I guess on the. Stupidest spiritual teacher out there. He says something like that,

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

as a joke, but I, I get what he's saying. Like, that's, that's really the only thing that you know, and so rest in that, rest in the don't know mind. As you know, Zen teachers would say,

Stephan:

Yeah. There was a, a moment, a couple, a couple weeks ago where someone asked me kind of out of the blue. Like,

Adam:

I.

Stephan:

expecting the question like, do you believe in reincarnation? And I'm not, honestly not in, I don't have a lot of those conversations these days, but someone asked me that and I legitimately didn't know. I, I was, I was actually shocked because in the past I would've totally had an answer for you. had this answer about how, you know, reincarnation is. real, or oh, reincarnation is, is relative. But really no one ever reincarnates unless it's kind of like into, you know, this like intellectual understanding of, of how non-dualism orvi ATA work. And I, I honestly was like, I, I honestly don't know. I have no idea. Right now. I, I have no idea. feel like, um, I can be a little, that was, it was, I didn't, I wouldn't say that I was scared by that answer coming out of my mouth, but I was definitely shocked that I just legitimately don't know. Like I, I, I have no idea.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

it's, uh, things just, I could see things dropping away. Um, like not

Adam:

Right.

Stephan:

have, I mean, for so long, I mean, for so long in my life, I, I really relied on having the answer.

Adam:

Wow.

Stephan:

really relied on having the right, I mean, that's why, you know, I would, um, listen to hours and hours and hours of talks and lectures about like invite to ante to like, understand the right answer to like get, like what is it really saying? And

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

um, and it always just led to more questions like having, having the, the, the, the best, uh, the best answer.

Adam:

Yeah, you probably still could offer that person a very detailed, intellectual, conceptual answer. You, and you probably would do a good job of it too. But I think if we're, you know, our theme thus far has been self-honesty. The truth is, if you, without relying on concepts you don't know.

Stephan:

Yeah. Yeah, that's, it seems like that's a really good point, you know, relying on concepts. I mean, how much of. How much of our lives rely on concepts? How much of what we do day to day relies on concepts? We rely on concepts for how to be a good person, how to make money, how to, you know, how raise a family, how to have a community, to, you know, all these how-tos, like how to do anything is all like, it's all concepts. so I,

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

you just get bogged down on concepts and then, which, which one's the right concept and oh, this concept clashes with this concept. How do I hold both concepts at once? And it's, um, I think what Aja is pointing to is you, you know, you don't, you don't need to have the concepts at all to tell, to, to, to, like, really, that's, that's not what it's about. It's not about

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

answer.

Adam:

One thing I, I realized I didn't share, and I, I generally like to do this at the beginning, is just a, a little bit of a background on, on. Ti,

Stephan:

Oh yeah.

Adam:

um,

Stephan:

you, what are you

Adam:

yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm slacking man. Who, who is this guy? Yeah.

Stephan:

is it a dog? Is it someone's dog named a Ashanti? It

Adam:

AJ Aja, uh, enlightened Dog. Okay. So a Ashanti. Hi. His name is Steven Gray. Uh, Steven Gray and he's 60 something. I think he's 61, 62 at the time of this recording, um, he basically studied Zen, and so for those of you curious, although his name is Sanskrit, and I think AIA means primordial, Shanti means peace, primordial peace. Um. Although his name is Sanskrit based, his background is Zen. Uh, I will say though, that, um, oh, and one other thing, uh, la the La Zen Center, I think is where he did most of his training and, uh, where his teacher was. I, I will say that, um, even though he comes from a Zen tradition. He does a very good job at not speaking with jargon, and he even uses some Christian terms, um, sprinkled throughout so that he doesn't, you know, turn off people who come from different, um, traditions. I think traditionally with Zen for example, you'll, you might speak of. Pure awareness or pure presence or, uh, stillness to describe this state. But he'll, he uses God and, and the word spirit quite often interchangeably with that. And I, and I appreciate that because there are people who relate to that level of awareness, um, in those terms.

Stephan:

Do you or I honestly, I kept wondering'cause I didn't know a lot about him before listening to this. I actually. I thought he was from a Zen background, but.

Adam:

Yeah,

Stephan:

didn't get it from his. He did use a couple of things. I think he, you know, he

Adam:

you wouldn't. Yeah.

Stephan:

like, uh, I, I believe this was in the book, he talked about the concept of like drunk on emptiness.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

this kind of like soulless, just nihilistic, uh, obsession with emptiness.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

like, you know, these things are very clear, like. You know, you gotta be in, in Zen to really get that, like the stink stinks of zen kind of sayings like this, that are really zen, zen focused. But I, I would never really get that he was a Zen practitioner. Um,'cause he did, he doesn't use that jargon at all. It's props to him.

Adam:

He is, yeah, props to him. He is really good. And one of the things I really like is he does offer stories of how students show up to him and the ways that they hold on to their sense of self and their identity. And he's so you can hear on his voice, he's very gentle. He's very, very gentle. He's not aggressive. Um, I think a lot of Zen has a rap of like the wild and crazy teacher. Uh, he does not seem like that at all. Although he is, he's, he will point out where you're still holding onto an identity as an ego, but not realizing it. I think he's a good teacher. I've never met him in person, but just listening to this book seems like he has a genuine sense of what he's talking about.

Stephan:

Absolutely. And you know, the real mark of a, a good teacher is that they

Adam:

What?

Stephan:

they speak in complete sentences. And like, it sounded like he was reading almost at times. Like,'cause the, the, every, the thought, every thought was so formed. Um,

Adam:

is that the mark of a good teacher?

Stephan:

No, it's not. I'm, it's not. I, I appreciated it though. What else?

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

you got? What else? What else stuck out or stuck out for you about this book, Adam?

Adam:

Honesty, um, the rocket ship. Uh, what else was there? Um, gosh, we talked about the cul-de-sacs. Uh, what else? What else? Um,

Stephan:

I, I wanna, I, if you don't got something I, I,

Adam:

yeah,

Stephan:

to talk about, you know,

Adam:

what do you got?

Stephan:

awakening is, and we've already mentioned it during this episode, but maybe we'll dive a bit more into it. You know, awakening is alive in this moment. It's not, it, it's right now it's not. past awakening. It's not the future awakening you'll have in the, at some time in the future. It's, you know, it's right now.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

And the freedom that comes from, you know, when you just let everything be exactly as it is, you know the people that agree with you, they agree with you, and the people that don't agree with you, they don't agree with you, and just how there's such a freedom in that.

Adam:

Uh, yeah, there is. Yeah. Um, he does bring that point up several times. It's always about your lived experience right now, right. And it's, it's very true. There's, um, the, the awakened mind, if you will, is timeless. Or another way to put it is it's outside of time, and some people talk about it by describing the, now. I know Eckert, uh, is well known for talking about the now. Um, but really even the idea of a now, uh, is defined. In relation to a future, in a past when neither really exists. So that's why I personally like, um, in, in a lot of non-dual circles, there's just the word this and I like that because there's just this, there. This, to me, speaks to the intimacy of, of what is when there's no more barrier and when you really live with just. The presence of what is then the idea of a past in the future is ridiculous because there's only this, um, one other,

Stephan:

how have you seen No, no, no, no, no. I don't wanna leave this point yet. How

Adam:

okay.

Stephan:

that, uh,

Adam:

I.

Stephan:

you know, in those moments in your life when you've really just rested in that. How have you seen, like the world around you change or not change? Like have you, has it actually had an effect on the way things show up for you or do you

Adam:

Yeah, no. Well, it, uh, for me, I'd say one of the biggest things that changed for me with, um, the experience of awakening that has so far, thus. Lingered is time doesn't exist the way it did before. Um, and what happens is what is is very rich and it's also quite intimate. What I notice is that. When I think of the future, it's almost like a layer comes between me and what is.

Stephan:

Mm-hmm.

Adam:

It's, maybe it's a layer of thoughts. It's a, it's a, a layer of Im imaginations and fantasies, hopes, um, fears, fears that this might happen or that might happen. You know, in many ways I notice the ego when it arises is, or rises in relationship to an imagined future. Uh, either a future that I'm afraid will happen or a future that I hope will happen. But even the, the, in the hoping there's a grasping for it.

Stephan:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Adam:

Um, but what happens is everything that occurs in the present moment occurs through a filter of the future. There's like an, like an obsession over will, what will, what I'm doing now be in service to getting to where I wanna go? Right. It's, it's.

Stephan:

how is this, how is what's happening going to affect my future?

Adam:

Exactly. Exactly. It's, it's all in relation to the future. Now that just happens to be where the, you know, my,

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

ego, my tendencies, that that's what it does. I know there are people and there are friends that I know where they relate to everything that they do is in relation to. Past, you know, uh, bemoaning a lost past, past, um, memories. There's a past good time that now will never be again. Right? Like we relate to the fast. And what I've noticed is, um, prior to a deeper awakening, there was always that filter there. I was never intimately relating with what is. Directly, it was always, uh, through a, a barrier. I just didn't know that that barrier was there until, you know, then I realized, oh my gosh. It's possible to be very intimate with the present moment and not have anything in between.

Stephan:

So how would you, I mean, what advice would you give to people? What would you, if someone said, I also just totally obsessed about the future. You know, what, what can I do? I mean, are

Adam:

Hmm.

Stephan:

you tell them?

Adam:

Yeah, I, well, I can't say I'm coming from a place of, uh, fully abiding in a, in the.

Stephan:

Adam, please help me, please. I'm worrying about the future all the time. I'm obsessed about my 401k. I'm obsessed about whether I will be truly be an executive vice president by the time I will retire. Please for the love of God, help me.

Adam:

First of all, if you're, if you're just shooting for executive vice president, you, you gotta go higher, buddy. Go, go president, go CEO. If you're gonna go home, you go go big or go home. Um, that said. That said, um, what, I'll share what I do because of, you know, I noticed this tendency in me, um, the first comes a noticing and awareness. Oh, I'm doing it again. I'm grasping for a future. I'm, I'm planning out the next five years of my life. Um, where is this coming from? Oh. I'm unhappy with what is, I want something other than what is. Okay. Oh, gotcha. That's what my ego's doing. All right, cool. And so it is sort of a matter of fact, uh, noticing that that's what's happening. And I notice when I notice that the air gets sucked out from, from the ego, it's like. You, they're under the wings of the ego just gets completely removed and everything falls flat. Uh, and just in the noticing, the totally matter of fact, just like I said, oh, interesting. That's my ego's doing its thing again. You know, um, the, the momentum drops. It just falls flat. Uh, it's so funny. I was, I'll share with you, I was watering the, the, every evening when the sun sets, we have a little succulent garden in the back of our house. Um, my wife and I, uh, we just have this little ritual where we go and water the, our, our little, um, succulents, our little desert plants here. And, uh, she was telling me about her day. And I was standing with her while she was watering and, and I noticed I wasn't fully present because I was planning how to make the succulent garter garden prettier and bigger with, with white rocks and more succulents and, and then the thought of. Well, really this garden's too small. Our backyard's too small. We need a bigger house. Um, but we need to save up more because we don't have enough for a down payment. And I was like, off to the races, you know, and I realized I totally missed the last 30 seconds of what she just told me. And, and I was like, oh my gosh. There I go again. There I go again. And I just dropped it. I just noticed. Just noticed it. I dropped it and I looked right at her. I looked at her face, and then I noticed the quality of experience dramatically changed. I was, I could see every pore on her face. I saw her, her curly hair, framing her face. I saw the water. I, I could. I felt the cool air, uh, on me. I could see the color of the, of the plants. Just the, the richness of the moment suddenly became clear and I, I realized how much of my life was basically filtered. Through layers of thoughts about a future that may or may never come. This is crazy. And, and also it, it impacts my relationship with my wife, my ability to be present with her when she's talking to me. Um, and I'm sure she notices it, you know, when I'm present versus when I'm not. What about you? Have you noticed, does any of this ring true for you? Do you have something similar happen to you and.

Stephan:

yeah. You know, I, you know, you and I have talked about, uh, about this quite a bit, my tendency is not to go to the future. My tendency is to go just towards feeling good, pure, uh, you know, feeling good. Like I will run from something that doesn't feel bad. So, everything I, everything I experience is always contextualized and. How can I feel better? It's not

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

I don't care about past future. I don't care about money, I don't care about of that. I just care about can I feel better than right now? and what was the original question though? I don't, I don't even

Adam:

I,

Stephan:

original question.

Adam:

I,

Stephan:

just

Adam:

were, uh, we were talking about

Stephan:

where like there's some,

Adam:

the, we're talking about a book. Um,

Stephan:

No, no,

Adam:

I, I,

Stephan:

you a question, I started

Adam:

yeah, it, it was related to, um, the, the, the present moment,

Stephan:

I think

Adam:

uh.

Stephan:

asking you about what happens or I asked you about advice, is good.

Adam:

Oh yeah.

Stephan:

but I started out asking about, you know, what you notice changes when you

Adam:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephan:

yeah, I think, um, what changes for me is that, um, space is created spontaneously for myself and others. So if I'm, if I'm talking with someone and there's no sort of escaping into a, for me, not a future or past, but a like, how could I feel better than I do right now? Um, a space opens up. And I find that I am just able to be with them exactly as they are and aren't. And I oftentimes find that there's so much more connection I really feel like I'm, I'm connecting with this person you know, what they're, what they're sharing and what they're going through. I really, I feel like, um. For the longest time I had the experience of you talking to somebody and then not really, not really knowing what was said during the conversation. Almost like, you know, you, you meet

Adam:

Yeah,'cause you're somewhere else.

Stephan:

Yeah. You're just somewhere, somewhere else. You're like, oh, who that, I know their name, but like, I kind of forget everything else about the conversation we had. I'd say that I, I really get absorbed and. And I really get absorbed in them, um, in them and what's important to them and what they're going through. And it's, so I, that definitely shifts for me. Um, and I think I, to me that the question about how would you, know, if I was to give somebody advice, said all I want to do is feel better, I'm tired of feeling so awful, is to really come back to what I started this whole talk with, which is. Um, honesty, really being honest with yourself about what you're running from, you think is so wrong with this moment. Um, there's people like me who are, you know, more focused on, on feeling good. Like there's a huge amount of. Energy invested in avoiding pain and discomfort.

Adam:

Mm-hmm.

Stephan:

think we all do that, but like,

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

I mean, you know, you, you do that through the future. I, I do

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

like, get me out

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

Like it's a, and, um, but really being honest with what I'm running from and, and so I don't find, like, honestly don't find there's a lot of like, peacefulness, you know, I used to think that it was uh, that honest and open would result in some sort of peacefulness. but I've even had to give that up because honestly, a lot of times there's a lot of discomfort and a

Adam:

Mm-hmm.

Stephan:

even like pain and tension and that's, that's what is.

Adam:

Yeah.

Stephan:

um, but just, yeah, there's something in that that doesn't, I don't run and so I'm just okay with discomfort,

Adam:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I, we, we, I, there's a lot to be said about getting to know yourself, getting to know

Stephan:

almost

Adam:

the

Stephan:

the entire path that getting to know

Adam:

Yeah. Getting to know yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Well, oh, let, let me, uh, qualify that there's a lot to be said about getting to know your ego tendencies,

Stephan:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Adam:

the ways that you avoid

Stephan:

Mm-hmm.

Adam:

presence.

Stephan:

Yeah.

Adam:

Uh, and, and then ultimately when you see that and, and that stops, then you know your real self. You know that which has always been, and. Never, wasn't

Stephan:

Yeah,

Adam:

for, for a double negative there. Um, I love him. Yep. Aia Ashanti an amazing teacher. I think he, uh, I heard he doesn't teach as much anymore. I honestly wish I had stung upon him earlier. But like we said, everything happens at the right time and everything's meant to be. When it happens, I highly recommend it. The end of your world. Actually, I'm probably gonna listen to more of his audio books.

Stephan:

Yeah. No, I want to too.

Adam:

Oh, any closing words of wisdom or non wisdom?

Stephan:

Hmm. I'd say exactly where you are is exactly where you're supposed to be

Adam:

Yep. And I would add, unless the future is better,

Stephan:

You'd ask. The future is better

Adam:

unless the future is better,

Stephan:

unless the future un unless the future is better. Yeah. Unless

Adam:

then then you shouldn't you, then you shouldn't be where you are. You should really try to change it.

Stephan:

all costs.

Adam:

As quickly as possible. Uh, yeah, I You're right, you're right. Okay. Say, say it again. I ruined it. Say it again.

Stephan:

I totally forgot it. The end of this episode is ruined,

Adam:

Where? Wherever you are.

Stephan:

you find yourself is exactly where you're meant to be.

Adam:

That's beautiful. Thank you, Steven.

Stephan:

got. You're welcome, Adam. It was wonderful to talk to you.

Adam:

Likewise, sir, until we meet again.

Stephan:

Until we meet again,