Holding Truths in Tension with Adam Mabry

In this episode, Adam Mabry joins for a great conversation dissecting the culture of outrage and anxiety and discussing his new book, Stop Taking Sides.

Topics Discussed

• How we arrived at this current cultural moment, which is marked by constant outrage and anxiety. 
• How Christians should wisely embrace wholistic truth, rather than accepting small pieces of truth and rejecting those which their “tribe” is uncomfortable with. 
• What it looks like to “hold truths in tension.”
• Examining areas where we need to embrace complimentary truths. 
• How we can grow more Christ-like and virtuous through navigating disagreements and differences.
• How we can love people while also disagreeing on some things.

More details and links on the episode webpage. 

Transcript

David: 0:37

all right. Well, I am here with Adam Mabry. Adam is an old friend of mine and, uh, currently the lead pastor of Alafia church in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And he's also the author of several books, including the art of rest, and most recently a new book called stop taking sides, Adam, great to have you here today.

Adam: 1:02

thanks, man. It's going to be with you.

David: 1:04

Well, Adam, uh, I know you have a lot going on and, uh, being in the Cambridge, Massachusetts area, obviously just such a, uh, a strong place for education and, um, you know, college students of course, home to Harvard university, as well as MIT and, um, You know, this book here stopped taking sides. Subtitle is how holding trues intention saves us from anxiety and outrage. I'm excited to talk to you about this because I know that we are certainly living in an era where, uh, there seems to be such a rise in both anxiety and outrage. And, if you could just tell us a little bit about this book and what motivated you to write it.

Adam: 1:52

Yeah, well, I'm a bit of a contrarion myself. And, uh, so th this book comes, uh, really is a. Out of my own journey, but theologically, and then, then in ministry. So theologically, I occupied a couple of spaces that don't seem to go together, you know, commonly, um, and, uh, and, and also in ministry, I've, I've gone as I've been in ministry for like 15 years. I've come from being someone who's quite partisan, quite, uh, you know, this is the right, you know, side and, and, and quite black and white and almost all my thinking too. Um, Only about those things, about which scripture is, is abundantly clear. And in those places where well-meaning Christians can disagree. Um, I've, I've learned a little bit more in the way of, of nuance and understanding my neighbor. And I think just growing in the virtue of love and patience, honestly. So, um, And B, because the battles we have to fight are so important. I found, I just don't have the energy or the, uh, intention to fight a bunch of other sub Christian distracting skirmishes. And then when I look across this wasteland of the internet, I find a lot of us, Christians wasting a lot of our time fighting with each other about things that matter, but maybe not very much. And certainly not when compared to some of the real issues going on before us.

David: 3:15

Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. I, uh, I think this is a across the internet, uh, but uh, in particular social media, I find myself even just needing to take a break and, um, um, I'm regularly trying to. Pull back and say, how do I not, uh, just be absorbed with all the, just kind of toxic, uh, conversations happening there. Um, I love this. This title. I do know that even when I first picked it up and I've had a chance to read a few of the chapters, Adam, haven't read it cover to cover yet, but, uh, even with the title, stop taking sides while there's certainly something about that. That's so appealing. I know that that for some, the title, when they first hear that they might think, well, wait, you know, not taking sides. Aren't we supposed to take size. If we're people that care about justice and truth, how can we not take sides? What would you say to something like that?

Adam: 4:10

Yeah, it's funny. I've gotten a couple of negative reviews on my book for this very reason. Like stop taking sides. We're supposed to take sides, one star Kerr and I'm thinking, well, yeah, you're exactly the kind of person I wrote this book to. Um, Uh, because, uh, yeah, obviously, um, the, the phrase stop taking sides is like a categorical imperative won't work. Um, it's not the, it's not the way we must always live our lives. It's more like, uh, a piece of wisdom, common encouragement. Like there are matters about which we of course must take sides. And I cover some of those actually in the introduction, like, uh, you know, the Bible is super clear. There's only one side on many issues to the scriptures. Like, you know, the existence of God or the necessity of, you know, Believing in Christ for salvation or something like that. Like, those are not debatable to any like basic Bible reader, but for those other matters, you know, um, uh, there, there are, uh, some, some tensions and, uh, I, I think God's a genius and that he constructed the Bible really intentionally to, to put those tensions right there before us. And. And not give them to us necessarily as problems to solve so that we can have good theology, but it's tensions to maintain so that we can actually have good virtue in good character. And, um, Yeah. Cause it seems to me that, um, you know, the Pharisees were really convinced they were right on a really small matters. And when given the chance to take jesus' side, they voted for Barabis. And I just find a whole lot of that same tendency in my own heart and in the part of the people I've pastored and interacted with. And so, um, I I'm, I'm hopeful that the book will help folks figure out kind of where they start and what sides really do need it to be taken. And then. Everything else downstream from that, um, can actually be, be held in some really dynamic tensions, which is, I think good.

David: 6:02

Yeah, definitely. You know, in your subtitle, I think even hints at this where you say how holding trues intention saves us from anxiety and outrage. So what I hear you saying, Adam is you're, you're not dismissing the existence of truth. They're saying, Hey, it doesn't matter. Just. Kind of kumbaya, but you're, you're talking about, um, just, uh, not neglecting one truth in favor of another to really have a, more of a, a wisdom centrist kind of an approach. Um, is that correct?

Adam: 6:37

Yeah. Yeah. So compromise and moving away from the scriptures or not caring about truth would, would look like I'm pulling back from the scripture. So compromise happens, you know, it's sort of like a liberal theological impulse that looks at the Bible and says, well, here, the Bible says that God is sovereign and here, the Bible says that we have moral responsibility. Well, those things obviously can't both be true. So, you know, I'm going to go solve this problem. Bye bye. Pushing the Bible away. Right. And, and I am actually advocating the exact opposite approach I'm saying no, no, no. Don't, don't push the Bible away, actually get a lot closer to it and pull it really, really, really close and get, make sure you really understand what the Bible says about God's sovereignty and what it really says about our responsibility and dial both of those up to 11 and let that mess with you. Cause I think that God wants to do more than just fill our brains with right doctrine. He actually wants to. Make us righteous people. Um, and, and this I believe is sort of a meta approach. The Bible takes it at doing that. And this is obviously in the book of Proverbs. Right. You know, there's, I forget exactly where it is, but you know, they're right next to one another, it's like, Hey, don't answer a fool. Cause you'll be calling his folly. And then the next problem was like answer a fool or other people would call in his folly. And you're like, what? And, uh, you know, famously like Richard Dawkins uses use that as a, as an example of, you know, obviously the Bible is filled with, you know, Idiocy. And whenever he was saying this to some, to some biblical scholar and he said, no, Richard, it's just demonstrating the fact that you're the character the Bible is talking about. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, there's a, there, there are attentions that because life is complex. Uh, we have to manage

David: 8:19

Yeah. Yeah. True. His intention. Yeah. So what you're saying is, is, you know, go deeper. Don't, don't pull back, but actually go deeper and, and, you know, try to see, you know, the, the other side of things as well. Uh, and so, yeah, I hear you in the book, you talk about nine different tensions. That Christians need to manage. I'd love for us to talk specifically about a couple of those, those, uh, I know, you know, one of those that stood out to me, particularly as we are coming up on, uh, uh, presidential election here in the

Adam: 8:57

W w we're having we're having an election. I didn't notice.

David: 9:00

Yeah. Oh yeah. You didn't know. Yeah, not that you haven't heard anything about it, right? I mean, it's, the campaigning started probably two years ago, but, uh, anyway, uh, one of the chapters in this book, and one of the tensions that you address is, uh, what, what you title, uh, politics and kingdom. Um, could you just talk a little bit about this concept of holding trues intention as it relates to this idea of politics and kingdom?

Adam: 9:26

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, in the history of Christianity, we have, uh, sometimes. Try to live as though this worldly kingdom were the place we were going to set up, like God's forever reign and let the early Christians, when, when Constantine became a Christian, the Christians at that time thought, Oh, this is, this is the kingdom right here. Um, Later on, uh, you know, it was, it was Charlemagne, you know, the, the first Holy Roman emperor, uh, Oh, this is the reunification of, you know, the kingdom. This is going to be Rome 2.0, you know, we're really going to get it right this time. And, and, you know, then, uh, you know, another example was the Protestant reformation, and you'd have, uh, you know, the various kinds of, um, things that happened after that. And, and to some America has done this. We we've all th because the Western imagination is, is haunted by the story of. Progress, um, that that's an entirely Christian story. No other civilization had it before Christians. Uh, well, Jews and Christians came along and gave it to humanity, which is history is moving toward a goal and a place. And, and that place is heaven. It's the kingdom, it's the para Zia. It's whatever it is. And, uh, and we can be a part of that now. W when we reject God, we merge those two realities, the, the right now and the not, not yet. And so we, we make it our goal to make heaven right here on earth. And, and the reality is the Bible pushes us to work really hard to make this place great. And to do so as elect exiles, as those who understand we've been chosen for such a time as this, as, you know, Mordecai put it to, to Esther, but we're not. Um, we're not to mistake politics as the means by which the kingdom of God, it becomes instantiated in the world. Um, and, and so there's a tension there and a lot of people have tried theologically to, to solve it, like, well, you know, how, how does my work here? You know, last into eternity and the Bible gives us metaphors and definitely gives us some insight. But, um, it doesn't explain in a systematic way. What we've got to do is hold it and avoid kind of the Amish and bolts of just kind of. Saying the heck with this and going off by yourselves, but also got to avoid this sort of, um, uh, uh, triumphalistic, uh, impulse to, to legislate the kingdom of God. I mean, that, that was sort of the failure in many ways of the moral majority. And it's the failure of our, you know, our current moment right now is you've got, you've got two groups of people in America who think that if their candidate loses. We're going to have hell right. And so they're, they're fighting, uh, as if this were a Holy war, uh, to, to bring heaven down and kick hell out. And, uh, and so what I'm doing in that particular chapter is trying to show, okay, there are some ways the Bible really encourages us to work hard in this world. And, and there are other ways that the Bible says, and while you're doing that, just to remember that this is not your home and that that's hard to do, that's really hard to do. Um, But knowing that it's hard to do and holding that tension should produce, um, uh, virtues like patience and graciousness with each other. Um, because the reality is that the man in the white house is not gonna, he's not gonna bring hell about on earth. And, uh, and if he gets replaced, heaven's not going to show up. Like neither of those things are gonna happen.

David: 12:57

Yeah. Yeah. This is certainly a, a point of tremendous tension. Um, and I know that obviously you tackle a number of these things throughout the book. Uh, you know, even just speaking of outrage and certainly politics, um, and our current president, uh, for that matter, seem to inspire. A lot of outreach and, you know, in a lot of cases. Understandably. So, uh, could you just speak to this culture of outrage in general and, and, you know, not that it's limited just to this issue. I mean, we talked about social media a little bit. I mean, it just, that can be a flashpoint for outrage for a lot of people, but, uh, w w why do you think we've gotten to this point, uh, where there just seems to be such outrage just across our culture as a whole.

Adam: 13:50

well, I think it's precisely because we've pushed away from the Bible and we've pushed away from the scriptures. Um, it takes maturity to. Be able to say that I love someone and I don't agree with them. You know, if you can imagine the time, you know, when, when you're little or I know you have children and I do too, um, you know, you play good guys and bad guys, and someone's the good guy and someone's the bad guy. And if you're the bad guy, uh, you know, the rules are just very clear, the good guys, you know, go kill the bad guy, et cetera. Right. And, uh, obviously those games. Aren't the way we play, you know, when, when we become older, uh, the way we play are a little bit, um, more nuanced, you know, when, uh, you know, I live in Boston, so I'm supposed to root for the Patriots and the Patriots are, you know, uh, allegiance is, is strong here. And so, um, when, when the pats play somebody else, it's not good versus evil, right. It's just, these are two teams and I really want my team to win or whatever, but it's not like. But I'll sleep that night. Right. Um, and in fact, if we saw a sports fan who was like willing to like unfriend someone, because they were just really, really, you know, uh, you know, 40 Niners fans or something like we would go, I think that you've missed the point of the game. And, uh, and, and I think largely we have come to miss the point of the game. The point of the game of politics for instance, is to, is, is a common goal. And, uh, And that goal can only be expressed and experience if we love one another, but because we've pushed away from the scriptures and we've adopted ways of thinking about each other that are not biblical. Um, we, we so deeply otherize one another as to, um, as to make love impossible. Right. So, so now it's not just, I don't agree with president Trump or something. It's it's, you know, he is a horrible, moral monster. Well, the nice thing about making your enemy or someone you disagree with a moral monster is that they're nothing like you. And if they're nothing like you, they're not human, you don't have to respect them. Right. Um, but if they're actually startlingly like you, then you are more inclined to remember the words of Jesus to treat one another, the way you, you would want to be treated. Um, And, and because we've rejected that story about each other, we, we don't do it. And here we are.

David: 16:19

yeah. Yeah, Adam, I know another tension that you address throughout this book. And in one particular chapter, you talk about theological tension, uh, around word, spirit and tradition. Um, could you just talk a little bit about that tension?

Adam: 16:37

Yeah. So this is the only trilemma in the book. Um, and it's really about, you know, where you plug in to spiritual vitality. And so, you know, if you can, if I can vastly oversimplify Christian history, um, you know, just before the reformation, there's this, uh, Reliance upon tradition. Um, it's the tradition, it's the church, it's the institution. And then here comes Martin Luther and the reformers going, no, actually it's the word of God. It's the word of God. It's the word of God. And then, you know, over the last hundred plus years, the, um, the Holy spirit has, has been moving powerfully and awakening in, in the church, a sense of the practice and experience of his presence and his power. And so when you have in the church today, are, are. Christians who plug in to one of those as if they were the most important were only source of spiritual vitality in life. But the reality is, um, we're supposed to have all of them and if we hold all of them together, um, If we understand, okay, the word of God is, is authoritative. Uh, but the word of God says a lot about how we should respect our traditions and our elders and treat one another and about what the Holy spirit should be doing in our, in our midst. Um, Then we won't get in our little sandboxes. So, so like today, Christians largely, you know, divide up between the, kind of the weird Holy spirit folks, you know, who go to, like, I hop in duffle, running conferences and act strange. And then you've got like, sort of the, the reformed gospel coalition folks who read their Bible and are, you know, the heresy watchdogs, everybody else. And then you've got the tradition folks who were largely the, uh, you know, what's left a mainline Protestants and Catholics Anglicans, who kind of look at, look at both those other tribes. And they're like, man, what's wrong with them? And, um, And I believe that, uh, you know, one of the most powerful things that could happen is if we saw one another as, as family, as part of the same team, this team, Jesus, and could actually learn and listen, uh, to one another, because then actually the Holy spirit might, might do a real work. Um, but, uh, because the Holy spirit is a person and can be offended. We, we offend the Holy spirit when we, uh, when we, you know, Are proud about our, you know, knowledge of spiritual gifts or knowledge of the scriptures, and really, really, really arrogant and dismissive toward our brothers.

David: 19:01

Yeah, that's really, really interesting and true, Adam, uh, you know, what, what stands out to me as well is that, uh, you know, in the world, as it is today, so interconnected, uh, the internet really making information. More accessible than ever before, making it possible to speak with people, uh, that are different from you or live in different regions. I mean, just again, uh, so much connection that wasn't possible even 20 or 30 years ago. Um, but yet it seems that in some ways, Groups have been more polarized, not less by this increased opportunity for connection. Um, so I know I'm bringing in sort of a technology angle to this, uh, but you know, for me that seems somewhat counterintuitive. It seems that, uh, having, having more of an opportunity to understand one another and a dialogue, it could make possible a greater agreement, but it seems that it's done just the opposite. Any thoughts on that?

Adam: 20:04

Yeah, I think it's actually done both. So you do get affinity groups who are, you know, connecting to people, uh, around like shared ideas and stuff, but yeah. The, the promised paradise of the internet, you know, when, when the.com thing was happening in the nineties and all these tech companies were kind of coming online, um, and, and all this promise like, Oh, technology is going to be what binds us and unites us very few people at the time pointed out like that people were attributing to technology power to do things that only God is. Been promising to do, to unite us, to put us in a family, a truly international multicultural, a union. It doesn't make us all the same. And so what. What's the promise of technology failed to remember is human nature. And because all technocrats and all, uh, everybody who ignores their Bible seems to ignore the fact that humans are at the same time. Really, really amazing. And, um, morally disastrous. Like we, we both, we all have that in us. And so, and again, it's because we, we divide the world into good guys and bad guys, rather than realizing as a. No soul's needs and said the line that separates good and evil is actually, it goes, goes down in the middle of every human heart and, and that's, that's true. That's just true. Um, and, and so because of that, the internet had, uh, the internet was like, miracle girl. I mean, if you pour mule miracle, grow on a weed, uh, that's going to grow. And if you pour it on really lovely grass, that's going to grow. And if you pour it in my yard, both are going to grow because both are there and, and, uh, And, and that's kind how our, our hearts were there in our, and the internet has had that effect on us.

David: 21:50

Yeah. Yeah. If I'm, if I'm not mistaken, you actually get into this very idea. In another chapter, you've got a chapter divine imagers and deeply flawed kind of getting into that. Um, Adam, uh, uh, Oh, I also want to talk to you about this other tension. You talk about strong and weak and, uh, I know you, uh, you actually said at the beginning of this chapter, that this was, uh, the tension that you almost didn't want to write about. Could you talk about that a little bit?

Adam: 22:19

Yeah. Um, mostly because I, uh, I have a really strong personality and, um, And so I'm the kind of person who in the past has relied on his personality and just the strength of his, of his, um, you know, genetic makeup, uh, on that score to manipulate the world around him and get what he wants. And, um, and so it's, you know, I'm just, I'm aware that I have that potentiality in me. And, um, and so. You know, part of like, part of what I would say as a critique of our own culture here in America is we value strength and that's fine. We should, God is strong. Right. And, and, and there's a kind of strength. That's really wonderful. Um, but we've therefore, um, cut out the possibility of meekness. And, and so we we've. Again, good guys, bad guys, winners losers, because we tend to think along this really digital one zero black, white sort of, um, framework. We think that if someone looks weak as in they, they part ways with what we perceive to be strength. So in America we've seen at the time at the current moment to value, um, a great physique, um, wealth influence, particularly social media influence, um, You know, things like that. So if someone doesn't have those things and we tend to write them off and ignore them and think they've, they've less to contribute or are somehow less valuable. And the reality is that that's not the right thing to measure. And so when you, when you look at Jesus, you see this being who has literally all power contained in a week frame. Who intentionally let go of his own on rights to that power in order to empower other people. And that's just a very different approach to power and weakness then we think about, um, and, uh, and yet I know we're all longing for a leader like that. Um, because, uh, because everyone, uh, everyone finds themselves, you know, the longer you live it's at some point you're going to root for a strong man, and then you're going to be feel as though you're underneath a strong man. Um, and this is classically seen. Like it will right now, you know, in politics. Um, a, uh, there's a, a group of people in our country who are, are glad that we've got this, this kind of, you know, quote unquote strong man president. And, uh, and it was the same group of people who, you know, eight years ago were not glad that they were under a very different kind of strong men. Um, uh, and, and. And so we, we know that we want someone like Jesus, but, um, again, it's as though we're, we're haunted by an Emory of a thing that we forgot, we once knew.

David: 25:06

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's really interesting, Adam. Um, Yeah, very challenging. Um, you know, it's interesting. One of the things I've, I've enjoyed his, even throughout some of my studies and, you know, going into seminary and things like that, uh, reading from a different time periods. I know, uh, one of my pastors of, of years gone by whom. You would certainly remember as well, sh Bueller, he would often talk about, uh, this idea of, just living within your own time and not reading authors and ideas from bygone eras and how in a way that can help to open our eyes to some of our own, blindness, not only culturally, but, uh, chronologically. So, yeah, really, really interesting. Well, Adam, what's your hope with this book? as we're living in this really tense time, um, going through a year with just a lot of varied challenges, uh, what would be your hope for someone that picks up this book and reads it? what, what kind of a journey, um, do you aim to take them on and what sort of change or help would you hope to offer them?

Adam: 26:20

I really hope that the truth and graciousness, uh, of, of the book, uh, the truth of, of pushing them deeper into the Bible helps them come out on the other side with an appreciation for those things that they th those ideas, those particular theological positions that they may need don't hold. But understanding that those who do hold them probably aren't like heretics. Um, and may actually just see the words differently. Um, and so the book starts with a, um, like a chart really, uh, that invites the reader to, you know, Answer a few questions and figure out, okay, where am I starting this journey toward Jesus? Am I more judging or am I a little bit more of a slow processor in my, uh, more inclined to be very, you know, open handed, uh, with new ideas or I'm a much more like, no, you know, this is it. And more of a black and white thinker and, and none of those are wrong. Okay. All those are fine. That's just how God sent you from the factory. That's fine. But. It, it guides the reader through what the text of scripture is doing so that when we come out on the other side, we're hopefully more virtuous. And that's the point I want personally, to be a more virtuous Christ-like person. And that can't happen if I just judge people for things that Jesus never. Gives me the responsibility to judge them for and, and hold in my heart, low grade offense or disdain for the very same people. Jesus bled to die in love. Um, I can't, I simply can't become the kind of person he wants me to be if I do that. And so largely speaking, if we don't get this right in the church, I have no hope for my country. I mean, where, where else are we gonna find people? Doing this it's certainly not gonna be our politicians. Uh, it's certainly not going to be our, you know, uh, media moguls. It's certainly not going to be our artists and our leaders coming out of Hollywood or anywhere like that. It like, we're the only people left who even remember that this is a way we should be. And so what I'm asking the reader to do is to come into the Bible and let its difficult tensions forge something really, really needed. Which is virtue

David: 28:36

Yeah, that's so good. Well, uh, Adam, thank you for writing this book. I think it is challenging and it's, going to help people to see things from the other side. I think that probably in each of these chapters, people are going to resonate a little bit with some things and they're going to be challenged with some other things. And so, um, I just appreciate you. Uh, producing this, sharing this with, uh, with the world, uh, before we wrap up, if I could just, uh, change gears just a little bit, uh, you know, for those that don't know you and Adam, I know you've done a lot of things in ministry and here on this podcast, we'd like to talk about the intersection of college, faith, and leadership. And so, Adam, I know you are just a naturally gifted leader. Um, but if you could just talk about all of your development and growth, uh, as a leader and as a disciple of Jesus during your collegiate years, um, how, how did that period of your life impact and shape who you are today?

Adam: 29:35

No, it's difficult to underestimate. How, um, I'm sorry. Difficult to overestimate how much that changed me. Um, It was in college that I was first really discipled. Um, it was in college that I discovered what spiritual family meant. It was in college that I had some really bad decisions, um, you know, shown to me by people who love me to help me. Um, and it was in college that I, uh, I stepped up into the, the very context, uh, of my whole life's work in ministry so far. So, um, No, it it's, it's been huge. Um, I transferred to Florida state university, uh, from a different school because I was just desperate to be discipled and help. Um, and so by saying yes to that process, um, I feel like I'm, I I've been able to sort of step into or live into the. You know, the promise seek first God's kingdom and everything else will be added. So, uh, I, I was fundamentally shaped by the work of, uh, like every nation campus and, and, you know, your own pastor, uh, there in Philly, um, Who who mentored and discipled me. And it it's, what's funny is it wasn't even like for a really long time. Some people think like discipleship has to be this like decades long, you know, sort of apprenticeship. It's really not like that at all. It's just, it's just being at least for a moment of your life, open to the input of other men and women of God, uh, to, to help you get to the next, next place. And, uh, and without that, I I'm certain I wouldn't be married and I'm certainly I wouldn't be in ministry and the way that I am and, um, um, I am. Unspeakably grateful for it.

David: 31:27

Yeah, it's, uh, Adam, it's been the neat just to observe your journey over the years. And just, uh, for those that are listening to this, that, that are not familiar. You, you went straight out from college, into international, missions and church planting in Scotland. And then, uh, you've been a church planter in Cambridge and Boston now for, uh, perhaps how many years have you been there at this point?

Adam: 31:54

Um, we've lived here for a decade and, and, uh, and it'll be the first quarter of next year that, uh, the church we planted is 10 years old.

David: 32:02

fantastic. Well, I hope that the younger leader listening to this, would just would take that to heart. Uh, just the, the kind of, uh, Impact of, of what can happen, uh, during the collegiate years, um, Adam, with that in mind for the younger college student or, you know, recently graduated person listening to this, what kind of advice would you give them? let's say the, the 19 year old version of Adam, if you could just say something right now to encourage to challenge, uh, the 19 year old version of you, what would that be?

Adam: 32:43

Press into God and to relationships and don't waste time doing anything else. I think, I think my, and what I worry about too, with other, um, With other young Christians on the campus that I have observed now for a very long time is there's a, yeah, I'll get to that. Y'all get to that. Y'all get to that. And then they never get to it. Um, and then a lot of their next 10 years is spent in a revision, you know, is spent trying to undo some things that they did, um, or go back and learn some things that they skipped. And so I, I would say, man, if you're in college right now, um, use the time and the, and the moment that God has given you by grace, because you're never going to have another moment in your life. That's like your undergraduate years ever. So ring it for all it is worth.

David: 33:44

wow. Well, Adam, this has been just tremendous. Thank you so much for carving out some time to, uh, to just have this conversation today. I really appreciate it.

Adam: 33:54

Yeah, man. Thank you.

33:57

Well, that was tremendous. I so enjoyed that conversation with Adam. And definitely encourage you check out his new book, stop taking sides. I think it will be eye-opening and helpful. As we continue to navigate these difficult times. Uh, that we would be people that are a little bit wiser, not just playing into sort of a tribal warring mentality, but that we would be able to see. Different sides of things and, uh, just, just live well out of that. So be sure to check it out. I'll include a link to it on the episode, webpage. And until next time stay encouraged.