Evangelism, Discipleship, and Mobilization for a New Generation with Steve Shadrach

Steve Shadrach joins in this episode to talk about the newly updated version of his widely-read book about reaching the college campus for Jesus Christ, The Fuel & The Flame. It's a great conversation about Steve's  focus on evangelism, discipleship, and mobilization throughout 4+ decades in college ministry! More description and details on the episode webpage here.

Transcript

David: 0:36

Well, well come everybody to another episode of the college, faith and leadership podcast. So great to have you back with us today. And today I've got a very special guest, who certainly will be a familiar name to many of you. Uh, but Steve, Shadrack so great to have you here with us today.

Steve Shadrach: 0:56

Great to be with you, Dave. Thanks for the invite.

David: 0:59

Yeah, well, Steve it's really an honor. You are someone that, through both your, your speaking, your writing, your training, just various aspects of your ministry, you have really challenged me and helped me personally. And so it's just such a, an honor to have you here today.

Steve Shadrach: 1:16

thank you, Dave. Um, um, I usually say I'm a legend, but a legend in my own mind.

David: 1:23

Well, that's great, Steve. Yeah, you, you are. You're a legend in my mind too. So,

Steve Shadrach: 1:27

right.

David: 1:29

uh, that's awesome. Well, Steve, for those that may not be aware of who you are, uh, want to give a little bit of introduction and then you can feel free to fill in the gaps, but, you are the author of the book, the fuel and the flame, which has been out for. Over 15 years now, I believe the first edition came out in 2003. And so a lot of college ministers have gotten to know you and your ministry through that. You've also helped a lot of missionaries, both campus ministers and other types of ministers and missionaries through your work. With support raising solutions and your book, the God ask, uh, and you're also the founder of campus ministry today. And so you've, you've, you've started a lot of things. You've, you've expanded a dove, heard you even talk about some of the variety of ministry that you do and how, uh, it's just, just, yeah. Even, you know, somewhat different and, and your, the broad scope of what you've done and starting different things and then empowering leaders. But, uh, Steve, yeah, just so grateful. Uh, I know you've also been involved in. Uh, in mobilization missions, mobilization is, is another piece of your ministry. Um, so Steve, I feel like you've done so much. It's easy for me to miss something. Um, and anything else you would add to the listener to help explain who you are and your heart and what you do and have done in ministry?

Steve Shadrach: 2:54

It seems like over the course of my life, I can start something and get it up and going and growing. But if you leave me in charge too long, we might be in trouble. You know, do you know people like that? They're kind of stuck they're starters, but not necessarily long-term developers. So man, if I had some, uh, other men and women who have partnered with me too, Uh, you know, take these ministries and grow them and multiply them in fantastic ways. And, uh, my job is just now to get out of the way and, uh, and, and let them run it. And God has blessed that one, two punch, I guess you could say, uh, you know, very, very much over the years, so I'm so grateful.

David: 3:38

Well, Steve. Yeah, there's, there's so many things that you've done that we could talk about. Uh, but particular focus here today. I'd love to talk about campus ministry and also your new book, the fuel and the flame. Um, and, and so we'll get into the fuel on the flame a little bit later, but just firstly, you know, with regard to campus ministry, you've been involved in campus ministry for, uh, what probably over three decades now, is that right?

Steve Shadrach: 4:06

Well, I came to college in 1973 to the university of Arkansas really is a brand new Christian and, uh, moved into a fraternity house and lived there for three years. And, you know, you talk about an unreached people group, you know, uh, on a big, bad state campus, you know, living, you know, in that house, trying to live for Christ, trying to reach my, my fellow Kearney brothers. Uh, but I just saw God use me. I saw how close to the kingdom these guys were because they knew they were lost, uh, in the South, you know, especially Dave, no, maybe not up in the Northeast and other parts of the country, but in the South, everybody thinks there's saved, you know, and we have to work hard to get students lost before we can ever get them saved, you know? And, and so, uh, but these guys, uh, they knew they were lost. They knew they were separated from God. And when they came to Christ, May have the same deal they were putting into the party life. Uh, they're now putting into following Christ. And so I, um, I just said, gosh, this is fun. Uh, I like to see life changed, radically changed like this. I think I want to keep going. And so that, that was, uh, I, uh, you know, we don't really do math much here in Arkansas, so I can't really think of, you know, how many years that has been. Uh, but, but a bunch since I was, um, you know, freshmen in college, so.

David: 5:30

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Uh, Steve, as you may know, I, I was. Serving in college ministry in Florida for quite a few years. Uh, both as a student and then for 11 years, uh full-time after graduating from Florida state university. So I'm familiar with some of the cultural similarities. I'm not sure exactly how, uh, Arkansas compares to Northern Florida, but certainly, probably more similar than, uh, you know, the Northeast where I am now compared to Arkansas. Uh, but yeah,

Steve Shadrach: 6:03

You, you, you, your, your fraternity boys drink Gator, Gator, beer, and ours drink hillbilly beer or something like that, right?

David: 6:11

Well, uh, yeah, common misconception, Florida state

Steve Shadrach: 6:14

the house kids me apart. Pardon me? Pardon me? Yeah, that's right. Well, that's the ultimate sin right there in it. Go wait. Whoa.

David: 6:22

that's right. Hey for you, Steve, you know, I'll pardon the sin. So, uh, I don't, I don't know how that works. I mean, but, uh, but Hey, w w we'll let it fly. Uh, well, great. We'll see if, yeah, just, just in that time and, and, you know, you've, you've just even written about some of those experiences in your new book, the fuel on the flame, which, uh, You know, I do want to get into, and I'm, I'm, I'm excited. I've actually been reading this. And I think I've shared with you a photo of some of the earlier additions of the fuel in the flame. And so

Steve Shadrach: 6:54

right. That's right.

David: 6:56

multiple copies now and now I've got an advanced reader copy of the current edition of the fuel and the flame. But, uh, yeah, I, I, you, you've done a lot of work to revise to update this new edition of the fuel on the flame. If you would, just though, before we get into the changes, share a little bit about what this book is about and what does that title mean? The fuel and the flame. What is the fuel? What is the flame

Steve Shadrach: 7:20

Right. Uh, you know, after people read the book, I like to ask them that. So, so tell me, you know, what is the fuel and what is the flame? You know, it's a cliff notes, right? The shortened version of the book. And usually people can pick it up pretty easy, but, um, you know, I think that God has to do a work in our lives. First of all, uh, w w what is the personal. Vision and foundation spiritual and personal foundation that he has to build in us. Uh, what are those essential building blocks, you know, to, to, you know, that he has to create in us, that we call the fuel. And if we will do our part to allow God to work and it's like that, then he will ignite it. He'll be the ignite, a flame that will really catch catch on, on a college campus. And, uh, so we want to help. College workers, college students, you know, across the planet, really, uh, not just have a ministry, but could it really, uh, ignite into a movement. And, uh, and really that's the next book that my coauthor, Paul Wooster, who, you know, he's the one that I have teamed up with. Um, I'm 65 and he's 35. Uh, we, we had a little mini revelation this past week, Dave, as we were talking, as we were talking about the book of second Timothy, my favorite book in the Bible in that Paul was about 65. When he writes this final letter to his disciple and lo and behold, Timothy there an emphasis. Well he's. He's 35. So we just thought, wow. Um, Paul and I are creating a little bit of a team here to write this book together, rewrite it. And then now we're starting on one, uh, for college staff for college ministries, staffers, church, based in campus-based collegiate workers all over the world. And, um, so. Anyway, that's, that's kind of where we're going with that. And what does asking God to start little mini fires on college campuses all over the U S country after country, you know, overseas as well. So,

David: 9:27

Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. I remember when I first started in campus ministry, even hearing about the first edition of the fuel on the flame and at that time, and even still to an extent, but it's to a lesser extent, just seeing just such a need for resources specifically related to campus ministry. And so it really felt like such a godsend to come across your book. Uh, What led you recently to revise and update the book? Uh, cause I, as I said, I know this edition is significantly different. It's I would say improved, not that the other edition was bad. The

Steve Shadrach: 10:02

no, no, I understand. No, I

David: 10:04

it's, but it's great. What led you to revise and update the book?

Steve Shadrach: 10:08

Well, you know, I, I, when I was back doing full-time campus ministry on campus, myself, Dave, I, I was looking for a tool and, and, you know, there are some great, you know, we were using disciples are made, not born and master plan of evangelism and, and, uh, you know, and, and, and I was swiping all the crew and nav materials I could find. And, you know, so I was. Uh, you know, scrambling around to try to find, and, and finally, I just said, you know, I, maybe, maybe I should attempt to. Write a book of the one I've been looking for for years and our board kept after me on that. And finally, cause I'm, I'm the master of procrastination, um, you know, wrote that thing and finished it, I think in Oh three. So here we are 17 years later, you know, I mean, think about, you know, how students have changed, how the campus has changed, how language has changed. You know, I can't use the word groovy anymore. That's that's really groovy, you know, and. And, uh, I can't say, yeah, I dialed him up on the phone, people going, what do you mean dial? You know? And so, no. So I just re we just realized that we wanted to bring this book to this generation of students. And, and so I had to bring in somebody that really loves students that really knows students that really has impacted, you know, thousands of students, uh, you know, in a, in a local way. But also I think in a global way is Paul. Paul Wooster. And, um, also one, one little final point there, Dave is, you know, when I wrote that original book, I was confused as to whether I'm writing it for staff. Or students, and I'd flip flop. You don't want gap. I seem to be focused on students. The next chapter, I'm saying stuff that really is more appropriate for staff. And so we, so we said, let's pull everything out of there that that is really staff oriented. Let's make this book just for college students and let's make it, um, simpler, uh, more realistic, more doable. Uh, for a full time student to be able to, you know, try to have a personal ministry on, on the campus. And so it is much, uh, simpler, more streamlined. It feels less a manual. I think the first one was five keys for this and seven steps for that. And four secrets for this, you know, and well, that's cool. You know, I'm, I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff, but, um, but no, we, we, we, we make it a much more readable, fun flowing. But, but impactful, uh, read. Uh, and so I think, I think the Lord's is gonna use it. I really do.

David: 12:47

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. One of the things I really loved about this new version is just the, all the stories. There are a lot more stories of students' experiences with some of the topics that you're writing about. And so it brings it much more out of the abstract and into the specifics of lives changed. And so, yeah. It's got the same sort of instructional value that the previous edition had, but I would say a much higher inspirational value.

Steve Shadrach: 13:18

Yeah, well, students, uh, you know, A lot of them are not reading as much as they were 17 years ago, you know? And so we're definitely doing the Kindle version and the audio version, and we're already starting on some other translations and some other, other languages and stuff. But, but I do hope that the stories and I love stories will, will pull people in and, um, and just, uh, that they could read it and enjoy it. But at the same time, um, let God work deeply in their, in their heart.

David: 13:51

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. W what are you most excited about this new version? Is it the stories, or is there something else that you would speak to you in that regard?

Steve Shadrach: 13:59

Yeah, I, um, I think just adding Paul to the team, um, he is such a great writer and, uh, he is a visionary and, um, You know, he must be a great guy. Cause he thinks like me, you know, I mean, I, you know, you know, how, how ethnocentric and egocentric Roe, you know, but who are the people that you like the most? Well, the ones that are like me, isn't that terrible that we would, human beings would be like that. But no, we, we have such similar, uh, philosophies of ministry. Um, I, I came to Christ through crew. Uh, athletes in action actually in Dallas when I was 18 years old, but then primarily got my training, my, my, my Christian personal and ministry training through the navigators when I was in college and, and thought about going on staff with the navigators, um, uh, pretty seriously. And so those two organizations, uh, along with the us center for world mission, the perspectives course, you know, the perspectives on the world, Christian movement course. Are probably the three organizations anyway, um, that have most influenced me. And that's really why kind of the theme of the book Dave, is we call it EDM for most students. They'll think that's electronic dance music, but it stands for evangelism disciple-making and mission mobilization. And so. So many topics, issues causes social justice, racial justice, all kinds of things are just. Hot topics and hot bed of involvement, you know, for students, especially in our country right now and beyond, but we've just decided, you know, we wanted this to be a very narrow book and not try to hit every topic that's out there. So some, some students will go, well, where's this issue and where's this cause, and where's this topic. And we just said, gosh, let's make this a timeless. Book that, uh, that, that, um, that will out last, you know, you know, different trends and let's not make it just for Americans. Let's, let's really serve the collegiate body of Christ and other countries and not weigh them down with our problems, you know? Uh, so, you know, we, we, we left all that out and we were just focused pretty much on, uh, your vision for your own life. How to build that foundation that I mentioned, and then EDM. And so it's kind of a narrow, I can't really use gun illustrations anymore. Sorry. I, you know, I'm not allowed to do that anymore, but it's more of a rifle shot than a gunshot. Uh, so it's pretty narrow in its um, in focus. Yeah, I guess I just use the gun illustration tonight.

David: 16:50

I think he did. Yeah.

Steve Shadrach: 16:52

Oops. Oops.

David: 16:53

Yeah, well, yeah, I hear what you're saying and just to have a focus of the book and that, you know, there are a lot of important, uh, things that we, as a society are wrestling through and are discussing right now and certainly discipleship. Uh, it, you know, as I view it, it's very multifaceted. It involves applying the teachings of Jesus to every area of life, to every issue. And yet, you know, I mean, you, weren't trying to write. A thousand page, systematic theology book here. You're trying to write a, a short book, more narrowly focused than that. So I think you've, yeah, you've done a good job with that. And in speaking to some of the illustrations, one of the other things that I really like about the book is you have, have quite a few, uh, visual. Type illustrations in there. I know a lot of those you've borrowed from some of these other organizations that you refer to such as the navigators who are famous from that, uh, th illustrations like the hand or the wheel, but, uh, I'm excited for a new generation to discover some of these helpful illustrations as well as even, uh, students more broadly than just those that might be involved in. In a particular ministry organization that would heavily use those versus another. That would not because certainly they are relevant in a more broad scope. So I'm excited for that as well.

Steve Shadrach: 18:15

Yeah, I am too Dave and I, you know, I really, I've never had original thought in all my life. Um, have you, have you had one, No, we, we, we, we, we mainly just, you know, we aren't, we just a conglomeration, a compilation of all the things that God and others have poured into us. And so, yeah, I can rearrange some words on a page maybe, but really worded all those thoughts and concepts and principles and fruits come from. Well, they come from God, his word, but also others who have poured into us, you know, over the years. And so, you know, just yesterday morning at 7:00 AM, you know, I'm taking three, three young. Fraternity presidents, um, through this, uh, this book and this first group that I've taken through this new version. And, um, you know, one of them had never heard the phrase, great commission, uh, that was all, that was a whole new phrase for him. And so, uh, you're right. This, this, this generation, uh, you know, a lot of them had been raised on, on, you know, Uh, Netflix and video games and stuff like that. And, and hasn't, haven't spent the time either reading a lot of them and, uh, or even, um, knowing much about the scriptures or, or, or certainly about Christian life or ministries. So it's, uh, it's, it's a, it's a big educational task that we have to bring this generation into. Uh, the great commission really.

David: 19:46

Yeah, I would agree. Well, yeah, Steve, to that, to that point, actually, you know, your years of campus ministry experience, how has campus ministry changed over the years and how has it stayed the same?

Steve Shadrach: 19:59

Well, I noticed when you, you sent me that question initially, Dave, you said, how has it changed over the last 60 years? And I said, Whoa. I said, I don't think I've been involved quite that long. You know, I'm old, but not that old. Right. Uh, you know, brother, I, it has changed. Um, but so many things remain the same. Uh, you know, I go to these seminars or here, these, these talks and the guys, you know, they've got all the different, you know, this is what the boomers are like, and this is what the millennials are like, and this is what X and Y and Z. And, you know, they give you all the different characteristics and boy, they seem to really know what they're talking about, you know? And, uh, especially that PowerPoint, it's all really designed well and you know, and no, I listened to that stuff, but, um, you know, what. I don't know, bro students or students, uh, we've got some more sophisticated ways to sin. Uh that's for sure. Um, we, we have, um, you know, a, a, a, a larger group that I think, uh, has come maybe from broken families or from dysfunctional families. Uh, they they've lived there. This new generation has kind of lived their life in front of a screen and they don't necessarily know how to build relationships, like, like they used to, or even carry on good conversations, you know? And so it is it, you, you, you are starting as least in the United States, I think from a little different position than in years gone by, you know, second Timothy two, two is still as true today as it was when Paul wrote it to Timothy, the things which you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, isn't caused a faithful man who will be able to teach others also. And so I put a lot of emphasis on those two characteristics, Dave, as I'm working with students, Um, I want to look for fight for men and women or, or one version uses the word reliable, but that second characteristic that Paul told Timothy to look for. Uh, we leave out most of that most of the time and it's who are able to teach others also. And so for an 18, 1920, 21 year old, uh, to be able to not only be fightable or reliable, but then to also be able to take what you give them and pass it on to others. That's that's a little more unusual these days. Do they have the social and emotional maturity go along with their spiritual maturity to go beyond themselves and to start caring about others enough to pass this on to them. Those are the type of individuals that Paul told us to look for and to pour into. And those are not quite as readily available these days. It doesn't feel like. Um, then maybe, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago even. Um, but they are still as interested in, in, uh, my wife says finding a cause. That's what she, she feels like students are more than ever looking for a cause. And if we can help them embrace the cause of the person and because of Jesus. Um, that will revolutionize their life. So

David: 23:18

Yeah, definitely. Well, let's just some good insights. Yeah. Thanks, Steve. Um, any, any thoughts on what we would do about that? Just as a follow up to that point? I mean, how do we. How do we react? How do we respond? How do we do we do we does that just thin the crowd for us even more? Are there things that you think campus ministers ought to be doing to focus on developing students and some of those areas that seems like they're not as developed in what do you

Steve Shadrach: 23:49

There are all kinds of, of, of college ministries, the church base, the campus-based, uh, I don't want them to look like me. You know, I work with a particular little narrow sliver of, of, of, of guys on my campus. And I don't pretend to think that others would, would try to copy me on that. Uh, it, it w w I think each of us, each campus worked with is listening here to this podcast. Dave, uh, tends to relate to a different type of student, and they may have a burden or a calling to reach that particular. You know, category of student or a certain affinity groups on campus. And so what is it you're comfortable with? You're familiar with who are you drawn to? Who do you have a burden for, who really is drawn to you? And so every, every ministry is different and I don't, um, you know how I hope this book lays out some principles and some tools and, but there's, open-ended enough open-handed enough that any. Uh, student, or college worker, uh, would be able to, to see how it would apply to their ministry. I will say this, to really answer your question, I'm not sure that many students come to college these days and have really been affirmed that I'm not sure they really ever had anyone kind of put the stamp of approval on them and say, I care about you. You're a person of worth. I believe in you, God has a great plan for you. You have amazing potential. It's something that the, the, that a mother and especially a father I think ought to be doing for their sons and their daughters. But many times they come here still looking for that, that affirmation, that sense that someone believes in you. Um, and so I think a college worker can not need, I'm not saying play that, play their dad or play their mom, but you can be the person, you know, that, uh, puts your arm around them. Um, you know, once COVID is over. Uh, and, uh, and, um, but just really says. Man, I believe in you and God, God has a plan for you and you, and he is going to use you mightily and, and, um, and just put that, you know, that, that sometimes it just takes one person to believe in another person. And that changes their life. That, that, that that's all it takes.

David: 26:17

Yeah, Steve. That's so good. I think you're, you're so right. And onto something there of just believing in students. And of course that doesn't mean pretending that everything they're doing is great or never challenging them or, or any of that. Uh, that's a part of discipleship and evangelism as well, but, but yeah, just. Uh, affirming, affirming what what's good about them and believing in them and calling them forward into who God has made them to be while also just celebrating who they already are and just recognizing the inherent value and worth that they have as a young man or as a young woman. Yeah. I think that's just a great option. Really true, Steve.

Steve Shadrach: 26:57

thank you.

David: 26:59

Well, Steve in the book and just throughout your ministry, I know one of the things that you talk a lot about, and that comes across to me throughout your speaking and your writing is a tone of urgency and evangelism. I know in the book, you shared a story from your college years of a fraternity brother named Mike who you're administering to. And it sounds, it sounds like that was something that was perhaps catalytic for you and even developing this greater sense of urgency to share the gospel. Would you mind talking a little bit about that?

Steve Shadrach: 27:35

you know, Dave, sometimes you just get burdened for someone. Um, I have to believe your, your listeners, there's someone in their life right now, but they were burdened for. Um, they love and they want them, they want to be in heaven with them someday. They don't want to be in heaven without them. And, and they don't want them to live on empty purposeless, guilt filled life, this side of heaven either. And so, um, I'm not sure there's been a person in my life that I, that I felt as deeply burdened for. As the story of Mike in that book, uh, everybody begged me not to, not to, you know, remove the story of Mike, uh, in there and how. How burden that was for him. And, and, and what happened to him? I don't want to, I don't want to give the punchline. Do you mind? I, I want them to get the book and read the story, but, uh, but man, it, it had a horrendous chapter in our situation there, but then boy, it got to give a final chapter that was so satisfying. Uh, and, and I praise him for it, but you're right. I hadn't really thought about that before that that situation may have been a catalytic one for me. Um, just to see the potential, uh, of even hellion fraternity boys, you know, most people on college campuses, you know, his stay away from those guys. They, they, they, those are like, you know, You know, getting behind me Satan or something, you know, it's just like, uh, and yet, um, the potential is so great there. And, uh, so I, I, you know, I I've got one guy and maybe a second one that I think you're so close to coming to Christ even, even, even this week and next week. Um, uh, I'm praying for them. I'm spending time with them. um, sharing with them. There's going to be a point here pretty soon, where I'm going to ask them the golden question, you know, and I just think that, um, my heart to their heart. My eyes to their eyes, you know, uh, uh, they know I care about them. And, um, and so that, that w when you care about someone, when, when your listeners really care about a student, pray for a student, enjoy a student, like a student, they sense that they see it. They feel it, that opens up their heart to the gospel. It really does. Um, even if they say no, the first time. Uh, no, as a stepping stone to it. Yes. And, um, and so I just would, um, it's really one of the funnest things I do. Is that a word funnest, maybe, maybe most fun thing I do, um, is, is, is help a young man, um, bow his head and invite Christ to come into his life and receive him as his savior. And Lord, it's just a. Uh, and, but then the work begins. That's when the work begins to start following him up. And that's why the fuel in the flame is so essential and say, okay, what do I do now? Because my very first attempts at evangelism, I was telling somebody yesterday were just embarrassing. I mean, when I came to Christ at age 18, I knew nothing. And I just was the way I was trying to share my faith. And it was just, you know, embarrassing. Well, you got, you gotta start somewhere. Right. And, uh, and so, um, God has brought me to this point. I'm grateful.

David: 31:18

yeah, Steve that's, that's tremendous. Yeah. Thank you for that. I think this book is going to help people. I think it's going to help, uh, both inspire and challenge our hearts for evangelism and for reaching out to whether it be fraternity brothers or. Teammates or classmates, uh, it's going to help. Uh, but then as you said, it, it really takes it beyond that. Okay. What do you do now? You know, that's, that's the beginning. That's not the end, so very good. Well, Steve, you referenced it earlier in your emphasis. So what you call EDM, and again, that's not, uh, electronic dance music, but evangelism, discipleship, and mobilization. Let's talk a little bit about mobilization. Because I think this is something that I do see, uh, just as a great emphasis. And you mentioned earlier your involvement with the, us center for world missions and Ralph winter and the perspectives course. In fact, Steve, I don't, I don't know if I've ever told you this, that I've, I've been through their perspectives course. and so yeah, very eyeopening, just how does doing all around the world and just the number of, of people groups, and then the number they have no gospel, uh, witness within them. Uh, even the number of languages that currently, have no. Translation of the Bible. And so really eye-opening um, and I know your vision, which I love and I, uh, you know, celebrate and it also share is just to see laborers for the kingdom, mobilized, mobilized on the college campuses of North America, uh, college campuses over the world, but ultimately to see. Every tribe. Every tongue, every language reached with the good news of Jesus and to see, people from every, every language group trusting in the Lord and following him and worshiping him. could you talk a little bit about. Mobilization, and I hope I didn't steal your thunder here in talking about it, but, uh, just share how that developed in your own ministry, as well as some thoughts on connecting evangelism, discipleship with mobilization for college ministries today.

Steve Shadrach: 33:28

Yeah, that's a great question. Day by day. I, you know, early on, I thought. Evangelism was the key. Just how many people can I get to pray a prayer to receive Christ, you know, and I. I thought I was the Billy Graham on campus, you know, and I was going to how many new conversions could I not show my built, you know? Uh, but then I, I got involved with the navigators and realize their founder, Dawson trauma, and who, I kind of study the founders of these organizations to know exactly what ha how did they begin this thing? And what are the roots and what are the, the DNA of it, you know? And. No. I realize that then I was realizing, well, no, it's not as much. How many people, you, you get pray a prayer, so to speak, but, but how many disciples, how deep and broad can you, can you raise up disciples in generations of disciples? And, and I thought, well, now that's success. How many disciples there are, you know? And, um, and so then I thought I was the Dawson Trotman of my campus. You know, I, as you can tell, I have an inflated view of myself, you know, dramatically, but, uh, but it wasn't until a few years later, um, I was actually a college pastor. I was, I was a collegiate password church. And a guy comes through and wants to give a talk to our group. And we had, uh, we had, I think maybe 800 students involved. So we, we were doing the, the E we were doing the D on, got on the university of Arkansas campus. We, we, we wanted to have two laborers and every single. Uh, living group. I mean, that means every dorm floor, every fraternity, every sorority, every athletic team, you know, every week divide the band up, you know, the winds and the percussions and tell, I don't know much about music, but we, you know, divide them all up. And so we were going after that campus, right to the heart of the campus. Um, and this guy wants to, you know, come and speak to our group about missions, you know, and I, you know, as I kind of humor me, we, we, we pretty much know about missions, you know, w we're doing just fine, but I finally let this guy speak and he just gave a little 30 minute message to all of our students of tracing Genesis to revelation God's heart for the nations. Well, bro, I. I had never seen this before. You know, I, I had been to, you know, two giant seminaries and, you know, uh, Charles Riley, the guy who wrote the Bible, you know, Rory study Bible, he, he'd never mentioned this, you know, or at least I didn't ever hear it. And it just stunned me. And, um, I became a little more teachable at that point. And I went up after that little session and I said, Hey, bro, uh, what if I were to treat you to breakfast tomorrow morning? You know, and now I'm a little more teachable, right? And so he says, why don't you go out with your wife? I was married with a young child out to us center for old mission and take this course called perspectives. perspectives.org is the website is all over the country. It's all over the world now. And I did, and it changed my life, Dave. I mean, I'm sitting there in that class. My world's being turned upside down and, uh, as I'm listening to these speakers, I'm doing these readings and all of a sudden it hits me that it's all the dots are connecting. The reason we're doing evangelists and the reason we're doing disciple-making. If my vision is not tied to reaching the whole world, If my life, my ministry, my vision is not tied to reaching the whole world. Acts one eight, you know, Jerusalem, Judea, Sumeria to the uttermost parts. My vision's too small. My ministry is too small. All of a sudden I saw my campus not as how many people can we, you know, related to Christ and disciple? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It became a launching pad. It became a sending base and that's that changed everything for us. It connected all the dots for us. And so, um, yeah, I think, I think that if you really want to, um, build leaders, attract leaders, uh, if you really want to impact the world, uh, I think the college campus is the most strategic place to do it, especially if you can start viewing it. As a launching pad or a sending base to export all these students, you led to Christ all your students. You discipled now give them a vision for the world and, and launch them out all across the us, all across the world and their different professions or different, you know, ministry roles. But you can truly touch the world from a college campus. And I, I I've seen it happen many, many times, and I'm going to, I'm going to go to my Diane Gray believing it's the students college students, especially are the most recruitable. Trainable Sendible category persons on planet earth.

David: 38:16

Yeah, Steve that's excellent. Yeah. Hearing, hearing that vision and, you know, being impacted through campus ministry, myself as a student at Florida state university, uh, home of the Seminoles, not home

Steve Shadrach: 38:28

Seminoles go Seminoles. And really, really Dave y'all's ministry to every nation. I mean the one, the one you're associated with the one I was associated with for 20 years called student mobilization. I mean, that. That came about when I was out at the U S center was, it was, uh, at four 30 in the morning, kind of an epiphany, you know, that, you know, that that's what we're all about is mobilizing students to reach the world. That's what your ministry is all about is mobilizing students to reach what every nation. And so it's a similar vision, I think.

David: 39:01

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So. Well, Steve, this has been a, an excellent conversation. Um, I would love to ask you one last question before we wrap up here, just for, for the, the college student that's listening, uh, or perhaps the collegiate ministry leader. That's trying to think about man. How do I. How do I lead this 18 year old, this 19 year old? What should I say to them? Steve, you've lived this for a long time now and you've served in all these different leadership roles. Looking back now, what word of advice would you give to the 19 year old version of you?

Steve Shadrach: 39:38

Oh, wow. What a question? I cannot overestimate desks, maybe what I'm looking for here, the value and power. How scripture memory. See when you're old enough, now you start spending time with or crossing paths with young men and women who were involved in your ministry 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. And I'm thinking of one man right now who, uh, you know, was a different race than I am. He played football. I was, you know, an intermural God, but he was a varsity athletes, you know? Uh, and so we had a lot of things that were different about us, but he came to Christ and he started growing in Christ and he took on something. I challenged him called the topical memory system. You're familiar with it. I'm 60 verses to memorize and the references and these 30 different topics. And. And, and, and, and I, and he went into coaching. He went into some big time coaching. They even, you know, some major D one schools that he was coaching with, but now he's back in the area with w doing a men's ministry and having tremendous impact. And the first time we got together, it had been probably 30 years since I'd seen him. It's interesting sitting across from, uh, a person 30 years later, you can tell a lot about what's going on in their life. Right. Dave, These 60 versus I could just see them coming out of him. They laid the foundation for him. They, they, they formed the DNA of his life, that conviction that th th th the, the, the pillars and, and it sustained him and, and grew him and multiplied he and his ministry campus by campus team, by team player, by player. And here he is, as a 55 year old man. Sitting across from me and I could see the TMS just living inside of him and, and just, just oozing out the fruits, you know, that he had lived his life. I can Psalm one there, uh, you know, the, by the being nourished by, by along the river there of the word of God, you know? And, um, so it's kind of lost art these days. Uh, you, you. You don't, you don't hear much about it, but I would say let's get back to helping our students really memorize and review over and over again, key verses into their minds, into their hearts. I think you're going to see some dramatic long-term effects in those students' lives and their marriages and their family and their ministry. Uh, if we can, uh, help build that kind of a deep scripture based foundation in their life, I think.

David: 42:30

yeah, Steve that's so good. Yeah. Actually in a previous episode of this podcast that I did with Paul Wooster, whom you've referenced a couple of times here today, that's something that we talked about as well. And yeah, I I've personally gone through the topical memory system and, you know, we're, we're just living in a time. We're so many people are distracted and I'm not going to say I'm, I'm just totally above that myself. I used to come to the distractions of the phone, uh, myself, but just such a fight to, to not live that way. And instead to constantly meditate on the word of God, uh, and have that in our hearts, not just the latest. Notification or, or social media post. And so I think that's a good challenge, that you shared. So thank you. Well, Steve, this has been an amazing conversation. Uh, again, such an honor to have you here on the podcast today, for those that would want to get in contact with you, or get more connected with you personally, or just find more information about the book, the fuel and the flame, where might they get that information?

Steve Shadrach: 43:36

Cleveland staff with a ministry called center for mission mobilization is the organization I'm officially associated with Dave. And that that website is mobilization.org. And they could go to info@mobilization.org, if they wanted to email or something that would get to me. We are going to develop a, um, uh, a website for fuel and the flame. I think it will be fuel. And the flame.com is what they're working on right now. Um, and they can get that book@mobilization.org, or they can get that book on Amazon. And we hope to have the, the, the final version out, you know, somewhere late November, maybe. And, um, and hoping it'll really be a real, real blessing too. Uh, the collegial body of Christ around the world. So

David: 44:21

That's great. Well, Steve, I'm confident that it will be a blessing. It already is being a blessing in the advanced reader edition. Uh, so Steve, again, thanks so much for taking the time to be on the podcast today.

Steve Shadrach: 44:34

honored to be with you today. Thank you so much.