Why So Many Students 'Raised in Church' Run Away While in College with Billy Bernhard

This statement is so common it's almost cliche -- "they grew up in church but went wild at college." Why does this happen!? This conversation with Billy Bernhard unpacks this all-too-common ...
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Transcript

David: 0:36

all right. Well, welcome to another episode of the college, faith and leadership podcast. So good to have you back with us today. And today I have a very special guest, a good friend. Uh, my, my good friend and co labor in the gospel. Billy Bernhard, Billy. Good to have you here today.

Billy: 0:57

great to be here with you, Dave. Thanks for having me on and just excited for our conversation.

David: 1:02

Man. Yeah. Going to be great. So, Billy, just to share a little bit about who you are, ability, URA, a native of the greater Philadelphia area. You are a former college wrestler at Drexel university and you and I worked together on the same team. With every nation campus, reaching out to students and helping them grow in their walk with Jesus here on, in, uh, urban Philadelphia. So, uh, Billy, if you have anything else you'd like to share, um, just, uh, to help people get to know you here today.

Billy: 1:38

Yeah, I, uh, that's a great intro, Dave. I think you said everything just recently, recently married, um, been doing this for about, was it five, six years now with, um, with you and, uh, yeah, this has been a blast. Um, the past five years being a campus minister, I, I feel like the least likely candidate to be an administry. And so I'm sure we'll kind of get into that as, uh, the interview goes on. So. Um, yeah, just thankful to be here, man.

David: 2:05

Yeah. Yeah. It's been a lot of fun, man. Been a, been a great ride, uh, excited for the future as well. But yeah, Billy, as you alluded to, when I was talk a little bit about your journey, because I know for each person, of course, that, that journey to faith in Jesus and that process of discipleship is different, but, uh, with your journey specifically, I think it's gonna resonate with a lot of people just as I've I've. Red and even had lots of first-hand experiences over the years with myself and watching others with her walk with Jesus during college. You know, I just know there are a lot of people, unfortunately, that are raised in church that don't end up really following Jesus who, you know, whose parents tried to try to point them in that direction. And, you know, in some cases maybe they even, uh, you know, are involved in youth groups are involved in, you know, even. Uh, religious education, Christian schools and things of that nature, vacation Bible school, but just are not walking with Jesus. And so, um, Billy, I know your, you know, your journey kind of had some interesting twists and turns. Um, if you could just to start us off here, share a little bit about what your faith experience was like growing up.

Billy: 3:21

Yeah, well, um, like you said, David's got some twists and turns. Uh, we started off on the straight and narrow though. Um, my family, both I believing, uh, parents, mom and dad came from a really great stable household. I couldn't have honestly asked to be raised in a better house. Um, loving father, loving mother, both knew Christ and. Dad raised me with a lot of character and just teaching me what it means to be a man. And you know, almost like the stereotypes of, Hey, uh, you know, I'll teach you how to use a wrench and how to live with integrity. And a mom is just, you know, I just remember the clearest memories of, of growing up. We had this green spoon for discipline and she had a ring of Bible verses that she would attach to it, to, to discipline us in the Lord. And so it's say said, this is why I'm disciplining you, you know, clearly the rules you chose to disobey them. And these are the consequences. And so, you know, it was like we had, uh, you know, it was clear. And it was always loving though. It wasn't like some legalistic household. And, uh, I knew that my parents were my just, they love me. They made sacrifices for me. And so, um, grew up going to a local Baptist church and it's not Southern Baptist. I D I came to find out later in life that there are two different kinds of Baptists, at least there's Southern Baptist, which we were not. And then it was Northern, I don't know, uh, you know, other Baptist and we were the other, so very much the, the pews, the Oregon. Um, but this had a pretty profound kind of impact on my life. I remember some of the biggest memories. I wasn't super involved in youth group or anything, but just going to church and seeing my, my dad, having men, he looked up to in the church. Um, he would introduce me to, you know, man, after man of, Oh, this guy fought in world war II, he was a boxer he's in the Navy. Uh, we got the cowboy with the hat on, you know, he's like the one guy with that cowboy hat on it. And, uh, we had these very strong male figures in my church growing up that left the pretty now definitely looking back a huge imprint on, um, men that are spiritual men that pray, uh, men that, uh, yeah, just love Jesus with all their hearts. So, uh, my biggest, uh, spiritual formation, you could say that was my Christian school that I went to K through 12. I was a lifer and, um, went

David: 5:41

you were a lifer.

Billy: 5:42

Yeah, that's what we call them. You know, if you were there the whole, the whole time you were in for life, uh, we, we won an award at graduation called lifers. I don't know if it was an award or a recognition of suffering. So, uh, all jokes aside though. I loved it. Um, the school I went to was founded by Westminster, theological seminary. So, um, very PCA influenced, although it wasn't officially, that's the Presbyterian church of America. And so, I mean, we would be talking about God and math class and, you know, physics, and then we had Bible classes. So, um, you know, from a young age, learning catechism, uh, learning, you know, just up to, uh, systematic theology in high school and surveys of the new and old Testament. And, um, having to, I remember having to write a credo. Uh, in my senior year, it was credo is Latin for, I believe. So we had to write down a statement of faith and it had to be coherent. And I remember, you know, just doing really well on that. Uh, 95, if my memory serves me correctly, I knew I had all the right answers because I had studied hard. Uh, but in high school it was, it's a real shift. Um, I'd say, I don't know, around 11th or 12th grade. Where I realized that God was holding me back from doing things I wanted to do. Uh, holding me back from having fun has how I put it and very conscious of, uh, my prayers. You know, I had a prayer life. I had, I knew God. I knew about God. At least I knew a lot about God, but, um, I was running from him. I didn't want to follow him. Uh, in fact, he was holding back from what I wanted to do, which is mostly. Hang out and spend time with girls, you know? Um, I think I had two main drivers in life is I wanted to be liked and popular. Um, not, I want it to be successful and be seen as successful. And then, uh, yeah, most of that revolves around the attention and affection of girls. So. Um, that really was the driver going into college. So I was, you know, at this Christian school bubble for lack of a better word. And so if you go off the rails there, there's only really so far, you can go it's, it's really not off the rails, but Eddie worldly sense of the standard. So going to came to Drexel university, studied mechanical engineering. Um, I was on the wrestling team here and. So, you know, I had these very strong values, very strong Christian upbringing. Um, there was really no gaps there. Uh, as far as I can see in terms of, you know, who, who screwed up. Um, but my heart was just not in it. My heart was, um, like I said, it consumed really with my own success and doing what I wanted to do. And, um, so when I came to college, you know, again, those, those kind of main heart drivers were at play. And I wanted to fit in with the wrestling guys. I wanted to be one of them and, um, I wanted to do whatever I wanted to do. And so I had these two, um, these two things, I still believe in Jesus. A buddy of mine got me involved in a Bible study and he dragged me out to freedom church. And, uh, the Bible study was an upperclassmen him and then me. So that was our first, every nation campus Bible study. It wasn't even called that back in the day. Uh, In Philadelphia. And, um, so yeah, I think for me it was, it was really wrestling with, um, who's the captain of the ship. Is it Billy? Or is it God? And I had a very clear answer to that. It was me. Um, and I was pray like, God, just please leave me alone. I remember in high school, God foiling my plans and. I've I like clockwork. There was one, like, I think it was maybe spring of my senior year. It was like three or four plans I made to get into no good. And I'm just like every single time something came up. I mean, to the point where people's cars are breaking down and I'm like, God, you did it again. You flew by plans. And so when I went to college, those ex those restrictions kinda got lifted. I had a brutally strong conscience that I tried to shut up. Um, but, uh, yeah, so, uh, with the wrestlers, you know, I don't know if you know many wrestlers, but they, uh, they embody the, uh, the old adage work hard, play harder. And so, um, it was the lifestyle that I wasn't really exposed to in a Christian school. And so I joined them gladly. Uh, meanwhile, my conscience is screaming at me the whole time, Billy, this isn't what you know, you're supposed to be doing. Uh, but it's what I wanted to do. And so joined with them headlong, uh, and this lifestyle, you know, never really drank before college. And so, um, Yeah, man. I just kind of went down that path for years. Uh, I had this other, this kind of life where I would go to this Bible study. They'd ask me how my week was. I would tell them about my weekend, a big retinol. I tell them names and places I went and things I did and cause, and I just, you know, I somehow made sense of this. I believe in Jesus, but I don't live like it. And, um, I had a friend, uh, who at the time basically was incredibly religious. He was very, you know, coming out of a legalistic home. And so he had, I saw him seven days a week, six days at practice and once a church, uh, on our day off and he cut me off. So he would hang out with my, and talk to my even more godless friends. Yeah, but he had cut me out of his life because of, you know, some convictions, if you call yourself a Christian don't act like it, you get cut off is what Corinthian says. And so I was always confused by that. I, it gave me a great reason to justify calling him a hypocrite and religious guy and to further entrench myself in my own positions. But, um, these two paths I had, uh, came really careening together. They were parallel paths for, for years. Um, and they collided when I was in my third year. Drexel's kind of weird. It's a five-year program. Um, so my about halfway through college, I realized that I was deeply unhappy. Um, I was emptier and emptier. I was getting what I wanted living the lifestyle I wanted. And, um, I just was, I was empty inside and I realized that I needed to change. And so, um, Yeah, I just started as I tried to stop, uh, with small things, like, let me stop cursing. One thing is so hard to do. I was like, I can't stop cursing. I can't start making these jokes. I'm like, I can't say anything about myself personally. I tried to cut back on drinking, no luck, you know, and I just realized that I can't change myself. Um, and it was getting me in more and more trouble. Uh, it was getting me more and more empty. And, um, my friend sat me down after a Halloween party and you know, this is like the, you know, we, one of the few times we had talked and probably close to six months, even though I saw him every day. And just chewed me out, um, said, Billy, you know, you yourself, a Christian and, uh, you, you act like this and he pulled out pictures. I mean, he's pulling out the, all the receipts and we're screaming at each other in a Starbucks at 34th and Chestnut, uh, between Penn and Drexel's campus is ugly. And the words he said to me, stuck to me, like, uh, Um, a time bomb, a ticking time bomb. He said, Billy, you have to pick either you get busy, live, uh, get busy living or get busy dying, but you got to choose. And then he laid it out. You either call yourself a Christian and you act like one, or you stop calling yourself a Christian and act, however you want to, but you have to choose. And I left there like. You know, confirmation bias to the extreme. Well, you're a religious person who, uh, is super judgmental and I can completely write you off forever. But these two streams in my life are getting closer and closer. I'm getting more and more miserable. And, um, it's new year's Eve of, uh, 2011 going into 2012 and I'm going to have a bunch of friends over. I'm gonna, uh, have one of my legendary parties at my house. And I decided I'm going to throw it because I committed to it, but I'm not going to participate in it because I know where this goes and I'm not, I'm not happy. And, um, around 1150, a friend drags me in and, uh, you know, it ends the same way. All of them ended it with regret. And so I wake up the next morning and I say maybe one of the first honest prayers in my life is, uh, God, I'm done doing things my way. I want to do things your way now. And I meant that. And I knew that's, that's what the past two and a half, three years of fighting God was about is who's going to be in charge. And, uh, men, I had a, uh, a dream about a month later that scared the living daylights out of me of, you know, basically God putting that, that path in front of me of choose life or choose death and the consequences of, of not choosing God and seeing where that would lead to death. And so. It was just powerfully, powerfully in front of me of, I have got to pick God if I want to get out of this and I've got to make him, I've got to live for him. And, um, so I would say somewhere in there around February, January, February of 2012, I got born again. Um, you know, I know that's not everybody's experience, but that's where. Life changed for me forever. I, the God I was running from and didn't love the God I hated and wanted nothing to do with is the God that found me in my mess, cleaned me up, made me whole, and, um, yeah, found me at the end of myself. So yeah.

David: 15:51

Praise God, man. That's, that's such an awesome, uh, I mean the, the, a lot of stuff going on there, but I just, man, so thankful for God's grace in your life and just, you know, this friend that walked with you through those years of early college and then just really God getting your attention, you know, during that, uh, that season, um, Billy just to, just to go back even a little bit into some of those details, just thinking about your high school experience, thinking about early college, um, and you know what I want to just dig into there for a moment, where do you think the disconnect was? You know, you, you had all these experiences growing up, you're in this Christian school, you're, you know, you talked about just the, the wonderful influence of your dad and, and all of that. Where, where do you think was the disconnect, uh, for you, um, being exposed to all this, having all this knowledge. I mean, you, you wrote out the statement of faith, the credo, you talked about that, you know, I mean, you, you, you, it, wasn't a lack of knowledge. Where do you think the disconnect was for you? Uh, really following Jesus yourself for real, as a young man there in high school and early college,

Billy: 16:59

great. First, let me shout out mom also. Great. Uh, example, mom and

David: 17:03

Oh, yeah. Don't

Billy: 17:04

holding it down. Don't don't want to forget mom, got to make sure that all the credit goes to where it's due. Um, man, that. That's a great question. Dave one I've thought about a lot. Um, at first it was easy to blame other people. Like why did I never hear the gospel? Um, I think the disconnect ultimately lies within my heart. Um, I didn't want to live for God. I wanted to live for Billy. And I think that just produced a hardness of heart. Um, maybe I could say, you know, some things that this tradition. That I was the school I was going to emphasized. Right. Thinking and believing more than a discipleship or life transformation or, um, like being born again. That could be something I could lean towards, but I, I doubt that that's really what it was. I think it was very consciously. I understood Jesus wanted me to do certain things and I did not want to do those things. And so I'm going to go. The other way. Um, but I don't want to go to hell, so I'm still going to believe in him. So maybe it was not understanding, uh, Lordship. Um, yeah, I, I think it was just to be honest, I don't think I can blame anybody else, but myself in terms of, um, not turning to God sooner, uh, at the end of the day, maybe if there was one thing externally, it would have been not seeing Judas as both savior and Lord. Uh, when that was painfully clear in my, my heart was ripe. That's when those two things kind of collided. So

David: 18:44

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and just in your story, it sounds like that kind of internal rebellion really intensified and became much more overt when you got into college. Would that be inaccurate? Statement

Billy: 18:59

Yeah. Only external. Yeah. Um, in my heart it was, I just didn't have the opportunities to do those kinds of things in high school. Praise God, I'm glad. Cause you know how deeply entrenched those habits get in those patterns. Um, and they become an identity. They become a social group and they become harder and harder to turn away from. So I'm, I'm super thankful. Uh, you know, I had to spend a lot of time kind of unlearning or relearning, um, how to be me. Um, in the image of Christ rather than in the image of myself. So, um, yeah, I'm thankful for those things. Uh, just not being exposed to that, but it was the same heart. It's just, Billy wants to do what Billy wants to do. Being the captain of my own ship.

David: 19:38

Well, as you talked about the key turning point moment and a couple events with that, a key conversation, uh, with, uh, with a friend, uh, you know, you talked about a dream, right? Could you just expound on that? What, what do you think was catalytic in really making that ultimate shift to, you know, you talked about who's the captain of this ship, is it, is it you or is it God? Uh, could you, could you just share a little bit more what, you know, and, um, Billy, the reason I'm asking this is just trying to even. Mine out. What are those key things thinking for the student that's listening to this that maybe is just in that place of considering, Hey, you know, who am I really going to live for? Or thinking about the collegiate ministry leader or the student leader? That's just like, man, I, I. Interact with people like this every day, that seemed like they're just kind of half in half out. And just, just wanting to see that real embrace and real pursuit of Jesus, or even for that matter parents that are frustrated that want their kids to walk with the Lord, but just aren't seeing that fruit in their lives. Um, so I'm just trying to dissect this a little bit further to. Ascertain. What are some, some key elements in your own experience, as you look back that you think were particularly helpful in bringing you to that point?

Billy: 20:58

Yeah, it's a great question, Dave. I wish I had a simple answer for you, a silver bullet, but I don't. Um, a lot of people get credit that God used them in my life by. By this point I had met, um, our current pastor, pastor Gabe, and he had taken over the Bible study and had become a significant influence in my life. Um, you know, really actually being one of the voices that's confronting me about my own inability to change and my own need to change. Uh, I super thankful for my, my buddy on the wrestling team, another, the guy that was leading a Bible study, who was gracious, he gave me a, he, I belonged, right. I didn't, I wasn't cast out. Um, even though I was acting out. And so I, I had a really clear next step when I came to that moment of decision, I wasn't, it wasn't unclear to me what I needed to do. So I think that there was just, uh, the combination of being confronted with the truth in a gracious way and my own dissatisfaction. Uh, with the life I was living, I just, I was so concerned. I am miserable. I am so miserable. I'm getting what I want. And I'm S every time I taste this, I get mm, empty or the cavern in my soul gets bigger and bigger. So, um, I think for me, just, you know, David, you know, because we work together, I'm very confrontational person by nature. I want to talk it out. I want to resolve something. I want to move forward. I want to action steps. I want. Like I'm, I'm not shy about the truth, uh, coming out to light, even if it's a bitter truth, uh, or bitter in the moment. So I think for me, what was really important is confrontation. Um, and I think that's a lot of things that people are, are shy, shy away of. Um, but the way I've thought about this in a way that is going to be life producing is confrontations with grace. Right. People confronted me with the grace of God. He loves you, but you've got to turn, right. Um, he has so much more for you, but you gotta lay this down. Uh, you can't receive him unless he is both savior and Lord. And so there was I, my, the confrontation wasn't pushing me away. It was saying, Hey, you've got to confront these things in your life so that you can be received so that you can receive the love of God. And the compensation was just things that are true. Um, but it never came in, uh, in a form of rejection. Um, I think that was just really important in my life. And I think, you know, Dave, we talk a lot about how, um, just communication styles, personality styles, but how we have to reclaim biblical confrontation and really calling people to change. And, um, I think that's a big part of how I think about discipleship now is that. You know, I'm going to put some difficult things in front of people and say, Hey, this is an issue. Um, but I'm a hundred percent committed to you and I'm calling you to change a hundred percent because the word of God is calling you to change. Jesus wants you to change this area and I'm not going anywhere. Um, I'm going to be with walk with you, um, as you figure this out and I'm committed to you, even if it's messy. So I think that, that, you know, has I see that in the character of Jesus. And I see that in my own story as being super pivotal, I had people to go to, I had another mentor. Um, obviously my parents are still in my life. They're praying for me during this time. My grandmother's praying for me. My great aunt's praying for me. Um, I had, uh, my high school wrestling coach who was a deep mint, a great mentor in my life. So I had a lot of people who were sewing into my life, praying for me, who were nudging me towards God. So I can't say that it was any one of those things. It was just. Uh, my heart wasn't in that place to receive yet.

David: 24:50

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's great insight, Billy, about confrontation. And, you know, I think what you said was just, uh, being confronted with truth in a gracious way. And so it's, I think sometimes when we think about confrontation, I don't know, we are almost thinking of that as like, I don't know, being aggressive hate or something like that. But I think what you said is so helpful of just saying like, you know, Hey co confrontation, if done, you know, humbly with, with, in a, in a gracious spirit, it really can be very helpful. And, and many times that's just what is needed. Um, but Billy, you know, something that, I guess I've got to ask as a follow-up to that is, it does seem that. Because many people just dislike confrontation, even though we, we, we, we, we all need it at some level in our lives. Uh, you know what, there can be a tendency just to run from that, that even confrontation, even if it's given in, in genuine love and in, you know, a very gracious way that there can just be a real tendency to, to run away from that. And so it sounds like in your experience that. You know, you, maybe you, you backed away from, like, for example, this friend that you mentioned several times, you know, you weren't talking to them as regularly, but, but you know, there was a continuity of a relationships still. So any thoughts on that? I mean, how both from your own experience, as well as now being a campus minister, how do, how do we navigate that? How do we, um, Just lead others in that way and bringing, you know, a challenge in a, in a good way, but also just, you know, help, help not to break the relationship, even if, cause I can see it, that being the case that you know, the person on the. On one side might want to challenge and, and maintain relationship, but there can just be such a tendency to run from that. So any thoughts there on how to just really help lean in where a person might be inclined to basically just cut off and disconnect?

Billy: 26:53

that's a tough one. Right, Dave, and I think we see this a lot in our culture right now, especially with younger people, is that, uh, this cancel culture. Whether it's canceling someone in a public sphere or in a private, uh, sphere of like personal relationships where, uh, there's the moment you make me feel bad, or the moment I'm uncomfortable, you get ghosted, you get cut off, uh, no responses whatsoever. Um, and honestly that just shows to me and a massive amount of immaturity, emotional immaturity on the part of other people. So then it's like, how do I not just. How do I navigate that? If that's the reality that if, if for a lot of people they'll cut you off, if you feel uncomfortable, um, I think we've talked about this before. David's just being really relationship driven. Uh, we've used the phrase of building bridges of trust that can bear the weight of truth. That's been a big, uh, framework for me is that I want you to know. I love you. I'm committed to you. And I will do anything I can within reason. And within my power to bless you and to see you grow, to become the man or willing God has made you to be. And so that is my commitment to you. And nothing you can do can change that. Um, so I think that I start there and then. Uh, allow people to lean back say, okay, well, how am I going to respond to ability then how, you know, cause I want to be an example of Christ and I want to be like him in all that I do. And I think that's how he treats us. So, um, then I just kind of gauge the stage of relationship that we're at and you know, I, I, I look at that, that kind of bridge of trust. How can this bear that weight, um, of confrontation in. Giving things time, not being out of fear of rejection, but out of looking at the goal of transformation in the other person's life, um, some things just need to be said, I've had people cut me off after confronting people with difficult truths and you know what? I can't be afraid of that. I can't live in a constant state of fear of rejection. I've got to grow up is what it comes down to. I've got to be willing to. Um, speak the truth in love. And if you don't like that, if you don't love the truth, I can't help you in that area, but I can remain committed to you and I can remain gracious towards you. And I can communicate that even if I know this is probably going to be our last conversation. So that again, this is going to give you a place to come back to, like, if you come back to me, you're never going to, I have to apologize. Well, I mean, some people let's be real, but you know, like I, I'm not gonna hold that over your head. Um, I'm not going to reject you because you treated me weird three, five, 10 years ago. And so, um, yeah, and I've had those exact conversations with people when I kind of sensed that, Hey, this is probably going to be our last conversation for awhile. Um, I just, I see too many people walking in fear and it, what that fear does is it causes them to swing between aggression and. Uh, protection. So they're really aggressive towards people because they're afraid inside or they're protecting themselves and their own emotions. And so they never can bring truth to it, to bear on people. And I just don't think that real life and really walking in as Christ allows us to like, flip-flop, we've got to operate out of a place of love, man. That just takes a stupid amount of wisdom to do so.

David: 30:23

yeah. Billy that's that's really great. Um, You know, just around this topic again. Uh, as I said at the beginning, I think so many people. Just to have have others in their lives, whether it's a friend, a roommate, a classmate that, or even a parent that has a child, uh, that is, that has someone in their life that is just not walking with the Lord, that they really have been praying for. You know, It can just be disheartening. And, and so Billy, I just got to ask, what would you say to a person that's in that spot? That's been trying to believe for their teammate praying for their teammate, their classmate, any words of encouragement to them?

Billy: 31:06

so many, so many words of encouragement. Um, I think that when we hear a testimony, when I share my testimony, it sounds so quick. It sounds so straightforward. It sounds so, uh, Uh, clinical almost. And it was so long, it was so messy. It was so uncertain. I, you know, there was times even when I, you know, gave my life to Christ and really made that commitment where I wasn't the greatest at it. And I, I faltered and, and I was learning how to, you know, like a, be like a puppy with big feet, you know, like learning how to walk. Um, so I would say, give, give God time to work. Your prayers offers never fall on deaf ears. Never. Um, I just think of the prayers of so many people that have changed lives, uh, like, you know, a famous, uh, Augusta St. Augustine's mother, how she prayed and prayed and prayed for her son. And he became one of the great men of faith, um, that we all look up to, you know, over a millennial leader to the prayers of a mother, changed his life, have changed millions and millions of lives as a result. So say don't doubt the power of prayer. Um, second, I'd say, you know, just think about how you can lean into that relationship. What does loving that person really look like? It's really hard to love somebody from a distance. Um, so how can you close that distance? How can you connect with that person? How can you figure out what they like, what they love and to just show interest in that. So to communicate love to that person, and then, you know, again, that's going to build that bridge of trust and then, uh, you know, third is like, how can you just show them that Jesus is better? Uh, I think the theologians call this, or preachers called a subversive fulfillment where, Hey, you're looking for this thing, how's it going? Is it really working? Yeah. Is that boyfriend is that girlfriend is this identity. Is this relationship, is this career really giving you what you want? And the, a lot of people answer you with the bravado of, of course, and you just have to not be scared by people's bluff because it's not working and it can never work. There's, there's no amount of money. There's no amount of sex. There's no amount of drugs. There's no experience. Um, there's no comfort that can fill that, that place, that in your soul that is made for God. And so if somebody says, yes, don't, don't buy the beat, just have grace. And, uh, then add, just show how Jesus is better. So many people want peace and identity at the same time. And it's so hard to, it's impossible. I'd say apart from God to have that. So. I'd say, look for those areas where you can just, uh, lovingly and graciously remind somebody, Hey, Jesus is better. And I think that that's, uh, that's been the, the resounding, um, One liner of my life since then, is that, Hey, I was looking for God. I was looking for satisfaction in this area and, and partying and relationships and any success. And I know that Jesus is better than that. So what I would go back to my teammates, I'd be like, wow, no, no guys. I know literally last month we were out here doing this, but come to church with me now, Jesus is better. He's better. We, we like my soul. It tasted something that was refreshing. And that I've been looking for the whole time. And so I think that we've got to show people, we've got to show them, not just tell them, show them that Jesus is better and invite them to experience him in our lives. You know, man. If, if you say the community being a part of a Christian community is better than another community then is it really better, right? When they come to your house, do you greet them with warmness? You think of them with kindness, you know, is it just the, you love them from a distance or can you get in their life when they have nothing figured and just show them with the tangible love of your life, that it is better to be a Christian. Um, So, those are just some things and it, it works. It works. God does the heavy lifting. That's the last thing to encourage somebody, you know, nobody changed my heart except for Jesus. Everybody was just a signpost to say, look to him, look to him. He's better looked at him. We're pet, look to him. He can transform you. And so I think that that's the last thing is that, um, allowed Jesus to change people's lives. Cause he will do the heavy lifting. Um, and he will actually reveal himself to people, uh, whether it's, you know, after a long night of partying or whether it's, um, in a dorm room, uh, or it's in a hospital bed, God can and will reveal himself to people. Um, we, so we water God makes it grow. And, um, I think that's just something that's so important to remember. We can trust God with the timing of those things.

David: 35:58

Yeah. Wow. Billy. So good, man. I think that those are just some really practical takeaways and words of encouragement to those that are listening. So, man, I just appreciate you appreciate just you sharing your story, your testimony, and just, you know, as well, your, your ongoing efforts to reach the next generation, just, you know, your service to students. And, uh, man, just again, thank you so much for. Joining today just really been great to have you here on the podcast.

Billy: 36:27

Thanks for having me, Dave.