Becoming a Better Thinker, and a Wiser Person, by Developing a Strong Reading Habit with Tim Casteel

Tim Casteel, veteran campus ministry leader with Cru at The University of Arkansas, joins for a conversation about his voracious reading habit. Tim shares how and why he formed a habit of reading an average of 75 books a year, and  the connection between reading books, the ability to focus, and being a thoughtful and wise person. In this episode, Tim shares a mix of motivation...
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Transcript

David: 0:36

Tim. Castiel welcome to the podcast. Good to have you on today.

Tim C: 0:40

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be with you guys.

David: 0:42

Well, Tim, I'm so excited about this conversation, Tim, you are somebody that I've admired and learned from for many years now. Uh, just to share a little bit about you, you are a veteran college minister with crew leading a movement at the university of Arkansas. You've got five kids ages, 10 to 18. And you're just a great thinker about ministry. You blog semi-regularly at your blog, which we can certainly link to in the show notes. And one of the things that I think is just incredible is that in the midst of all that, you're a, just an avid reader. In fact, I know last year you read 75 books, which is just kind of amazing in the midst of parenting and doing ministry and just, uh, an especially wild year. Um, so Tim, I'm just excited to talk to you today a little bit about learning and leading and how that connects to college ministry.

Tim C: 1:38

it is one of my favorite subjects. I love talking about learning and I think books are a key way to be a learner for a lifetime. And, uh, just to. Get better at your job, you better get better as a parent. Um, just in life. I think at one of the keys to life is to be a learner. So excited to be talking about this.

David: 1:58

Yeah, well, man, this is going to be a fun conversation. And Tim, I was just thinking back to even how I first got connected with you. And I know we, you know, only, just, you know, really today for the first time that face-to-face via zoom, but, uh, just, uh, I've been a follower of your thinking for years now. I think actually it was back when I was at. Florida state university doing campus ministry probably seven or eight years ago that, uh, I was having a conversation with another crew staff member there. I don't know Tim, if you know, Dan boots, uh, but uh, you know, campus minister there who I was talking to in fact, in a Chick-fil-A and I said, Man, I'm looking for other resources related to campus ministry. And, uh, I, I, I stumbled upon crew press green at the time, which is a great resource website, but then, uh, also got pointed to you and, and your website. So anyway, man, just a little bit of the backstory there that you might be somewhat interested to hear about, but man

Tim C: 2:58

That's hilarious. That's great, man.

David: 3:00

Yeah, good stuff, man. Well, Hey, if you, if you could just start off, uh, because talking about this and just ministry in general, uh, I'd love to hear a little bit more of your, your story. I mean, how is it that you became a follower of Christ? What was your journey like? And then from that point, even getting involved in full-time ministry with college students,

Tim C: 3:21

Yeah, that's great. Um, so my parents actually both became Christians in college, through crew back in the early 1970s that Ooh. In Oklahoma. And, um, so I grew up in a Christian home, whereas my parents did not. And so I grew up in a home or my parents read the Bible every morning and set a great, great example of grew up with great, a great church. And so I went to college at Texas tech and. I followed God decently through high school. Uh, but when I got to college, I really started to, to make my own and started to walk with God and learn how to read my Bible. I got involved in crew my freshman year. Not even, I can't even remember how I did. I don't, I don't remember thinking. I would do that when I got into college, because my, I don't even think I, at that time, I knew my parents had been involved in crew, but regardless I got involved and grew like crazy my freshman year. And, uh, just slowly changed life goals. I guess I went into college just with the typical American dream. I wanted to be a chemical engineer cause that's what my dad was. And he made a lot of money in the little business. And so I wanted to, and just freshman year, I slowly. I guess God shifted my heart, a lot of people. Um, and through just probably my Bible study, I would guess, and just decided, you know, I want to be at least open to the idea of going into full-time ministry and not making a lot of money. So that was a slow shift through the next few years of college. And when I'm graduated, that's that's what I love to do is to talk to people about Jesus. And so I. Came on staff. The crew was straight out of college and worked at North Texas for six years. And didn't Texas just North of Dallas. And now I've been at university of Arkansas for 17 years.

David: 5:09

Man. That's fantastic. Yeah. And I know one of the things that I've heard and Tim, you might've even been one of the people that's written about this is just the significance of really building over time and consistently, and just eat her in a year out. Uh, just really how key that can be for actual growth and impact. So I just, I think it's awesome that you've. Put roots down and you've been there for so many years there at the university of Arkansas. Uh, well, Tim, I want to dial in specifically on this aspect of learning and, uh, I know that you're a big learner, again, read 75 books, which I consider myself to be like a pretty serious reader. I probably read about 25 books last year, but man, 75 books, that's incredible. Uh, you know, some people are probably listening to this and be like, man, why would you torture yourself? You know, why would you even do that? Um, if you could just talk about why is it that you, you choose to read and spend a significant part of your time this way? Uh, what do you see as the value in that as a minister, as a leader?

Tim C: 6:17

Yeah, I can't remember who called it this, but they said that reading is a difficult pleasure, a difficult pleasure. So I agree with that. I think it is not easy. Um, but I do think there's deep joy in reading because I really do think, I think. I am motivated for a lot of reasons, but I think I, I believe reading is an antidote to our chaotic modern world because in a lot of ways, it's the opposite of immediate gratification. I think it's a way to live counter culturally and to develop, uh, a focused discerning. Why is mine and a chaotic distracting world. Right? So. I think nothing has had a greater impact on me spiritually than especially over the last. It's probably been seven or eight year process for me. Um, but I think over the last six years, I've read the Bible all the way through every year. And then just, I started reading a ton of books and that's just changed my life. And so I've seen the difference in my life from being really distracted and really. Scattered in my brain to being a focused person and, uh, you know, someone who can think deeply or more, more deeply. Um, but I really do believe that if you ask my kids, what would dad say on this answer? They would say, well, dad always says readers are leaders and they would roll their eyes. You know? So I do think, I mean, as I look, this is, I read about successful people. The one attribute that I'll share in common is they read a lot. Um, so yeah. Dave Ramsey. I've read, had him say this one. So he said that, well, young people in his organization ask him like, Hey, what can I do to grow? We're going to do to advance my career. His first response is always just read. You just need to read, um, Randy Gravitt to author. He said, if I can only choose one habit to grow as a leader, it would be developed a love for books. And so I think what motivates me, so becoming focused in a distracted world, but I think also it's almost like a cheat code where you let brilliant people explain the world to you. It's like a shortcut to wisdom. Um, so you're. You're getting the best of what other people have thought and already figured out. And they've already, someone's smarter than you and more prepared than you has already thought through something you're trying to figure out and they put it into a book and all you got to do is read it. So it's almost, I dunno, it's just a, that's a way to quickly grow in wisdom. And obviously among all books, um, I'm not just saying this because I'm a professional Christian, but I think the Bible is literally the book. You know, the Bible. The word Bible comes from the Latin root word Biblia and so the Bible is literally the book, the Biblia the Bible like it's it's, it is the original book. Um, and I think it's foundational. I think those two have gone hand in hand reading a lot and then reading the Bible a lot, have gone. Hand-in-hand is I've developed a greater capacity just to focus, I guess.

David: 9:20

yeah, focus. I heard someone say that focus is a superpower and kind of our age, because we're living in an age of such distraction, especially with social media being just so, so prominent, new social media platforms, all the time, new features on those platforms to further draw you in further kind of just keep you busy. Um, So, yeah, Tim, I hear you focuses key and breeding requires a lot of focus. So maybe even just alone for that discipline of developing the ability to focus, it's certainly helpful for that. And just looking at some of the books that you've read and on your. Website on your blog, you wrote a little blurb about each of the books that you read last year. The, a lot of these books, these are these aren't like easy reads. You know, a lot of these books are pretty dense. Uh, I think I saw, um, Sure. Is it Charles Taylor who wrote a secular age? I mean, that, that book in particular I've heard is just incredibly tough to read.

Tim C: 10:21

it's a beast.

David: 10:22

yeah. So, just the fact that this isn't like, you were just looking for the low-hanging fruit of, Hey, let me find, uh, you know, as many, 15 page eBooks, just to kind of get my stats up. I mean, you reading some serious stuff here. So Tim, I know you commented about just the advantages and how that's developed your focus and how that's helped you see the world. Are there any other benefits that, that you've seen as you talked about this journey that you've been on in the past six or seven years, that might motivate someone to say, you know what, maybe I ought to think about developing a reading habit. What other benefits besides what you've already said, have you seen in your own

Tim C: 11:00

Yeah, that's a great question. I think. One really motivating thing to me, or one thing I've realized as I've gotten older is the compounding interest of, of books, learning, compounds, just like money. And so I, I, you know, we were both college students and so I talked to college students try to convince them of this. I'm not always that successful, but I try to convince them like, Hey man, I wish someone had told me in my twenties that, that reading and knowledge compounds just like money, just like, you know, I'm 45 years old. I can't go back in time and invest money in my twenties and let it compound for a good 25 years. I wish I had done that more. That'd be wealthy right now. If I did that, I wish, like I said, I've read, read through the Bible with the last six years every year. And I've realized the Bible is such a huge book, such a profoundly deep book, and it, it compounds annually every single year. I read it. Um, I'm just like, Oh my gosh, I'm starting to see some threads and some themes. And it's just coming together for me. What if I've done this for the last 25 years? Like how much more depth to what I be seeing at this point? And that's how books work like books. I think I've really learned that books unlock other books. So the more you read, the more you get out of reading, the more you get out of other books and you're reading. So for example, I read a book, um, you are what you love. I read that probably five or six years ago, and I did not like it. I disagreed with it. I didn't like it. Um, I've read probably 20 or 25 books in that world in that vein of, of thinking on habits and desires and, um, even liturgy and things like that. And now I've, I've read his, his other book called desire in the kingdom and I've loved it. You know, it's was the greatest book ever written, you know, and I, I think what changed in the middle was I just, I understand it a little bit better because I read 25 books in that world. And that started to unlock where I actually can understand what he's saying. So I think just seeing that compounding interest of, um, how books build over time, knowledge builds over time and you can't, there's no shortcut to that. You can't just get that today. Um, you have to do that over, you know, years and decades of reading. So that's, that's really motivating to me, um, to really, I wish someone had told me that my twenties, for sure. I think another one is so. Back in the, you know, in the heyday of Christian blogging, it really 2010, I would literally read from a hundred different Christian blogs or not just Christian, but leadership and Christian blogs, a hundred different blogs. I checked them every single week. Literally I'm not exaggerating a hundred different ones and I would read maybe one or two books a year. And so. What changed several things changed, but one thing really impacted me was Tim Challies has a book called the next story and he eliminated a huge idol in my heart. I don't know if any of y'all do the Enneagram Enneagram five. So this is one of my chief idols, I believe is what Charlie's calls information ism. So information ism is a belief that more information is going to lead to life. It's going to lead to wisdom. It's going to lead to improving my life. A constant flow of information is what I need and that's what I was searching for and searching all those blogs. I was just trying to find. That one article out there at on how to be a better parent or how to be a better, more, you know, really successful college minister. If I could just find that one article. So I had this belief that more information would lead to, you know, a successful life, but he had a profound sentence. John Piper says that books don't change people's lives really sentences within those books do like one sentence with them. That book is going to change your life. And so he had one sentence that book, he said, That, what we're finding is that more information does not necessarily lead to more wisdom. In fact, the very opposite may be true. More information may lead to less wisdom. And I remember reading that, you know, seven or eight years ago, maybe 10 years ago and just being stunned. And I was like, that's me. Like I I'm getting less wise by taking in all this information. So kind of paradoxically. Reading a lot of books helps me cut down on my over overall information intake. I'm taking in less information. Okay. So kind of going on a side tangent here. So Nick, uh, Nicholas cars has a really good book called the shallows. And he talks about how we grow in wisdom, which is kind of what Tim is talking about. How do we grow in wisdom? And so your goal, he kind of gets into the brain science car does, and he says you have a long-term or in the back of your brain. And then you have the short-term memory in the front of your brain. And you said like your short-term memory, you get at most kind of hold three or four thoughts at a time, like three or four sticky notes in the front of your brain. That's the most you can process at one time. And what you're trying. So he compares the front of your brain to being assembled. And so you fill up your little thimble with ideas or thoughts or new information. And then you're trying to transfer that thimble full of water to the back of your brain, which he says is like a bathtub. You're trying to fill up that bathtub of wisdom, which is the back of your brain is as how you think about the world. The schema is you understand the world through the wisdom. Kind of your operating system of your life. That's the bathtub in the back of your brain and thimbleful by symbol full you're trying to transfer knowledge back to that bathtub. And so when I was reading all these blogs, it's like, you have your sink on, you know, full blast and you get a little fumble you're trying to fill up and water's just going everywhere, you know? And not just one St one, not just one faucet, but a hundred different bosses are trying to fill that one thimble. And you're just getting a ton of information. And none of it's sticking. Right. I would read all those things. And I could not tell you one thing that any of those blogs said, you know, two days later and reading is like getting a slow drip that fills up your thimble with the same, you get the same topic over the course of maybe two or three weeks of reading a book. It just kind of stuff. It used to drive me crazy like about John Piper is so repetitive in his books. Um, But man, that's how you learn. We learn by repetition. And so you get these slow drops that are filling up that fumble and you transfer it to the bathtub. And then you read another book on that topic that fills up that symbol. You just answer it to the bathtub and you, that's how we change. It's our brains change. So I think understanding that, how, how do you retain what you're, what you're bringing in, what you're taking in. As information reading I have found, this is the best way to do that because it's slow and it's steady and it's consistent. And that's how you rewire your longterm. It's how you become wise basically,

David: 17:43

Yeah, I agree. It's such a key habit. And I remember in my own journey, as it relates to developing a reading habit, I used to hate reading. I remember actually being in high school and somewhere kind of upper level high school, junior, senior year, having, having some assignment where I had to read an entire book and write some kind of re report about it. And it was just like, man. Just, just shoot me now. Like I do not want to do this. It's so painful. And, uh, but just hearing again and again, why is people, people that I admired, uh, pastors leaders even. People in the business world that would talk about the value of reading. And it was one of those things where at some point it sort of dropped for me that, man, I really need to just do this. It's kinda like, it's kinda like you just other habits, like brushing your teeth, like, well, do you want to have gum disease or not? You know? Okay, well then brush your teeth, you know? And so just being similarly deliberate about. developing a reading habit, even if it was slow at first or hard at first or whatever. So

Tim C: 18:50

Are painful.

David: 18:51

yeah, painful. Exactly. You know, as the saying goes no pain, no gain, you know, that the developing any new habit can be challenging at first, particularly if it's a habit worth having, usually those don't happen by accident. So yeah, love that, man. Well, you know, even this thing that you talk about kind of the slow drip versus the gusher of, of internet information coming at you. I'm curious to know. Does that influence the way that you read? Like, do you, do you tend to just focus on reading one book at a time, or do you read multiple books at a time? Do you pick one topic that you say, Hey, for the next six months, I'm just gonna try to read. A bunch of books on the same topic so that I can really develop some better competency in that. What are your thoughts on reading widely, and broadly versus reading in a more focused categorical way?

Tim C: 19:42

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I'm a big believer in reading a lot of different books at the same time. I think you have, it's surprising how much your brain can, can keep up with. Like, I think often people are like, well, how do you focus? Like, how do you remember what's going on in that book? If you're reading four books or five books at the same time, I mean, it's not, your brain will do it easily. It easily can. Detransition. So, so I think for me, I read different books at different times of the day. So in the morning when I'm most focused, uh, you know, I read my Bible, uh, first thing and pray and journal after I do that. I will, I will try to read about 20 minutes of a good, you know, a weighty Christian book that helps me understand the Bible better. Helps me see Jesus more clearly. So whether it's a really deep book like religious affections by Jonathan Edwards, or, you know, a lighter book, but more devotional from my heart, like a gentle and lowly bye. Portland. Um, that's kinda what I read in the morning. And so during the day I'm always listening to books and those are usually, uh, leadership books or, um, historical biographies, um, or even just fun books. And then at night I try to read something fun just to help my brain unwind for the day. So it can't be really deep or can't be. Um, it can't get my gears turning where I'm, you know, I'm trying to think about stuff. So it seems like just, um, either a novel or a historical, you know, narrative, what I call narrative non-fiction, you know, like a historical book that reads like a novel has to be something pretty light. So I think I read every, I keep, uh, I mean, I keep a huge books. I want to read and an Evernote and. A lot of it's organized by topics. Like I have a whole list of topics. I really, I don't understand. And I want to understand this year. And so I have, you know, books I want to read in 2021 and it's kind of a, it's kind of a mess, but partly it's broken into, you know, morning audio book, night books. Part of it's broken into topics of just here's 12 different topics I want to learn on this year. Um, But it's not super organized. Like I don't just read on one topic all year. I kind of just cycle through whatever, whatever is most confusing or perplexing to me right now that I'm trying to understand. It drives me to kind of learn and read on that topic.

David: 22:09

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting, man. That's, that's helpful. Just curious. Is there any aspect of community, do you have, are you part of any reading groups or do you have people that you're like, Hey, let's read the same book together and then you talk about it. Is there any element like that that's incorporated into your reading habits?

Tim C: 22:26

I've done more of that in the last couple of years, actually. Yeah. I think especially since quarantine I've, um, just kind of. Sought out people like the secular age, you mentioned, like that's a, you know, a really dense book, really long book. I would never probably taken that book up on my own, but I read it with a group of guys, a group of college ministers that, um, they're like, Hey, let's read it in November and let's try to plow through it together. And so we did it last November and I actually read it like October through March, cause it took forever to read. So, uh, I didn't quite finished that one month, but, um, But that really helped get me through. I think that's one thing I've found for difficult books like that. It really helps to have somebody else doing it with you. Cause otherwise I would have dropped out book quickly.

David: 23:14

yeah, man. That's, that's helpful to hear. Yeah, I do find that. Yeah. Community encouragement. Just it, it, it can help. So that's awesome. Yeah. Well, Tim, just back to the bigger picture, I know we've been talking a lot about the particulars of, of how you choose books and your overall reading habits, how that fits into your day and rhythm. But again, just to put that in perspective, it's not like you're just retired and got, you know, empty nester. I mean, you've got, you've got. Five kids. You are a, a team leader for a crew movement. leading multiple staff, actively doing evangelism and discipleship on campus. You've got a lot going on. How in the midst of all that, how do you make time? And do you see that some people might hear this and think, man, you know, you just, what are you doing spending all this time reading, you know, you just need to go and Just do all the time. What do you see as the direct benefit and the relationship between your reading habit and your on campus ministry responsibilities?

Tim C: 24:20

Yeah, that's a great question. I do think. If I had to guess, that's probably what's going through most people's mind. If I had to guess there's probably two things going through people's minds. So, you know, I would read a couple of years ago I was reading like a hundred books a year and I don't, you know, broadcast that or anything. But if I would just maybe come up in conversation and I think the two assumptions there are. Wow. Like you must be a really fast reader. Like you must be speed rating or a skimming a lot, or, you know, some kind of hack, like you went to some class on how to speed read, which is not true. Like I'm not a particularly fast reader. Um, or like you said, the other, I think thing people think is, well, it must be nice to be an administrator where you can just sit around and read all day. Right. So I think those are the two assumptions. But I I'm an average reader and I rarely read during work hours. I rarely read between nine to five. Um, I think having a demanding job does not mean you can't read a lot, so I'm inspired, but by people like George W. Bush, when he was president, he would read close to a hundred books a year. I mean, the leader of the free world, obviously a pretty full schedule. And the dude is reading, you know, almost a hundred books a year. Uh, bill Gates, when he was a CEO of Microsoft, he would read more than 50 books a year. Um, as a rather busy man, uh, Warren buffet, you know, considered the greatest financial investor of all time, he would read 500 pages a day. Like I'm not exaggerating. He has said, I re I read five pages a day. Like so, but he, he does read for his job. So that's a little bit different, but. I think the key is having a plan, like the difference between a re being a reader who reads a lot and someone who doesn't read at all, I was just having a game, a game plan. I'm a big believer in habits. In fact, one of the first things I recommend to people who want to be a reader is just read some books. First books you read, read about habits, like read the power of habit by Charles Duhigg read atomic habits. Um, our particular like atomic habits. Um, great, great book, but I think that is the key. It's not some secret speed reading speed reading life hack, or to quit your day job. I think it's just established some really, really basic habits of reading and the ones I would recommend are the ones that I do as read 20 minutes in the morning, read a serious Christian book for 20 minutes every morning. Listen to audio books all throughout your day when you're driving. When you're working out when you're doing dishes and you're working in the yard, um, just re just listen to the audio books and then read 20 minutes before you go to bed. If you do those, just those three little things, 20 minutes, audio books, 20 minutes, you will read about 50 books a year. Like, it's crazy. Like it's not, it does not take much. It's just, it's that slow, you know, habit thing, or it just kind of works. Um, you read 20 minutes every morning and you'll plow through some pretty thick books in about three or four weeks. Um, And you'll apply through, you know, a 200 page book and at about a week. So, um, I re I'd say, I do read a little bit every once in a while, I'll be preparing a talk or a sermon and I'll read a book on that topic. Uh, but I don't typically read during work hours. I do read on vacation a little more, or, you know, different, different seasons of life. You have a little more space to read, maybe. So that's kind of what looks like for me.

David: 27:42

Yeah. Yeah. Really helpful. Yeah. So it's not like you're just slacking off on your job. Just sitting back reading all day long every day. You're just being intentional with the time that you do have Tim, as you develop more of this reading habit, are there things that you've stopped doing during some of those other times that, like you mentioned, like drive times or early in the morning or evenings, are there, are there other things that you use to fill that time with that you no longer do? Uh, Tell us about that.

Tim C: 28:12

yeah. Going back to that book, the next story about some chalets. Yeah. I read that. And I, you know, I got, I probably got an iPhone in 2009 and I, I don't know when I read that book, but a few years after that I was deeply addicted to my phone. Like most of us are, and I was trying to understand, like, why does my phone exert such a gravitational pull on my, my heart and my attention. And I mean, obviously that's something all of us try to figure out. And, um, I'm still reading a ton of books trying to figure that, figure that out. It's a constant struggle, but I think. Getting a less addicted to my phone was if you had to, I would guess if you had to graph it out, it would be a direct inverse correlation between how much time I spend on my phone and how much time I wasted. Um, I think not just in, yeah, but I think, like I mentioned earlier, just a distracted mind cannot read. And so your phone is, it makes. It rewires your brain, you know, the plasticity of the mind, it rewires your brain to be a distracted mind. You can't sit down and focus even to read the Bible for like five minutes. You just can't. It's like you have a distracted mind and the, but you can, through the, you know, the plasticity, the mind, your mind can rewire itself to be a very focused, disciplined mind. It takes months and years to do that. But, you know, So I, I would, I would be on my phone constantly and checking a ton of blogs and reading a ton of blogs, but just kind of scattered and just all over the place. And I would read one or two books a year. And so I read several books in that vein of trying to figure out how to get off your phone. Um, and, uh, so I was like, I'm going to try to read more. And that first year I read 72 books and the next year I was like, that was fun. Like, I really enjoy that. I flipped my brains changing. I could feel. Books that I thought were challenging. Now I'm reading a little bit easier. Um, it's easier to read those books and they're not impossible. Like I felt like they were at first and you'd kind of develop that muscle to be able to focus and really follow someone's logic through. There are some paragraphs and some pages and the next year. I was like, I want to increase my reading this year and I read 52 that next year. And the next year I was like, that was, I wasn't horrible. Like that was definitely doable. I could, I loved it and I want to do more. So the next year I read 104 and the next year I read a hundred and then I got to, for me, its sweet spot is about 75 or I'm not just believing. And I'm not just trying to read for, I don't know, just the goal, the number. Yeah, just to hit a new record or just, I'm just. I want to be able to retain, obviously I want to just be changed by what I read and retain what I read and, and sub kind of down shifts at a tiny bit, and really I've implemented some stuff to like, I force myself after I read a book, I forced myself. I read on I almost exclusively read on. The Kindle app on my computer. And so I'll, I'll highlight while I'm reading, you know, and I'll force myself after I read, I will go back and I will copy and paste all my highlighted notes into an Evernote. And then I will, before I'm allowed before I allowed myself to re read the next books. Cause I'm like chomping at the bits kids in the next one. Cause I want to learn, um, before I'm allowed to do that, I have to go back through my notes and, um, organize them and kind of bold some of the thoughts that stuck out to me. Um, and if I really liked the book, I'll go through a, you know, kind of a third pass and reread all, reiterated all my highlights again, and kind of highlight the best highlights, if that makes sense, just to try to, I'm just trying to retain, I'm really trying to like get it into my brain and not just quickly move on to the next book. Um, but I think that's the key for me was getting less addicted to my, to my phone. Um, and then really. I would say, finding out what, why, like, why would I read and just kind of learning just how wise, you know, giving and life-changing, it can be. Um, so here's, here's how it actually started though. Was my wife started reading a little bit more and my kids were avid readers. I'm not sure how, but they, they loved Harry Potter. They loved Percy Jackson. And I kind of wanted to know it was in my, you know, what my kids were reading and just to be in their world a little bit more. My daughters were, you know, early teens maybe, or junior high at that time. And my wife read Harry Potter and she's like, you know, you, you, you should read, this is a really fun book. And I was like, no, I don't, I don't read novels. I don't read, I didn't read at all much, but I definitely didn't read fictional novels or, and youth novels, but I'd picked up Harry Potter and I loved it. And I just thought it was so much fun to read that at night. And I got hooked. So I really do think reading for fun reading. What's interesting to you is one of the keys to starting to read. Like if you read stuff it's fun and you like, it you'll want to read more. I think, I really think key to reading a lot is to read good books. Like don't read crappy books. Um, don't read, I only read books that have been recommended to me by people who read a lot of books. Um, I don't. So that can include footnotes of books that I read. If I see a lot of books referencing the same book by a lot of brilliant people, then I'll be like, yeah, I'm going to, I think I'm going to read that book because everybody's referencing that book. Or if a buddy of mine who reads, you know, 50 to a hundred books a year, he's like, these are the two best books I read last year. I'm going to read those two books because he's filtered through for me and found the best two. Um, so that's, that's definitely reading good books is very motivating.

David: 33:46

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's some great advice. Well, Tim, with that, I know as you're a heavy reader yourself, what's the best book that you read last year.

Tim C: 33:57

man. It's like trying to say what's what's is my children is my favorite child. Um, that's a really, really hard for me. Um, yeah. I can limit it to like my best 30 books. I have a hard, really hard time getting it down to even top 10 or top one. I mean, I really liked, everybody's talking about gentlemen lowly, but it's a truly a great book and very, very good for your heart. And especially for the chaotic world we're in right now. I think it's a really calming and peaceful book on just the heart of Christ for us. Um, And if you feel like you're on that, he says, if you feel like you're on this escalator of performance, um, this is a great book for you. So it's, it's gold. It's, it's a good one to slowly work through in your, in your morning, quiet times. Um, so that, that one stood out for sure. Last dress, definitely the book I recommended the most, because it's just an easy, it's a, it's a book that anyone can enjoy, no matter how much they're into reading. Um, it's just a really street-level. Book, anyone can really get a lot out of

David: 35:03

that's great. Yeah. I've, I've been hearing good things about it. Actually. I know several students in our ministry here are reading through it and I've, I just added it to my Amazon wishlist just yesterday. Actually. I

Tim C: 35:13

that's great.

David: 35:14

out. Very cool. Well, Tim, just to take slightly a different turn here for a moment, as you were talking about reading, and I know you were mentioning taking notes on your Kindle and copying them into an Evernote and just the place where you can keep those. Have you been able to develop any intentional system for referencing those in a more long-term capacity? I would imagine though, I don't know for sure that you speak with some regularity yet. Crew meetings or other places preaching and such. Uh, have you been able to develop any system beyond just throwing notes in, uh, in, uh, you know, not to make it, maybe that is your system? If so, that's great, but just anything beyond what you've already described with Evernote in order to easily reference those key takeaways that you've pulled out of all these books over the years.

Tim C: 36:11

Yeah, that's a great question. I do think that is a difficult thing is to, I mean, yeah, go back over what you've read and really sit in it and try to. Meditate on it. And, um, one of my goals this year is to reread some really foundational books in my life and try to get them into my brain and my heart a little more. Um, I do think so. I use good reads. Um, I think good reads is a great platform to kind of, it helps me track what books I've read. And so, um, I can easily look back and see what I read in 2019 or 18 or 17 or. Um, and then what I, what I rated it, you know, out of five stars. And so that's a, been a helpful platform and really the most helpful thing on good reads is they have a reading challenge and you set your goal for the year. You can set whatever number you want, and if you get on good reads, it'll just tell you immediately, you've read 12 at a 75 books. You're on, you're on pace or you're one book, you're one book behind. So it just really is a super helpful. Goal tracker. And it's really so the way our brains work with habits, as we, it seems silly, but we really like to be rewarded. We really like to feel like we're making progress. So if you set the goal of reading 50 books this year, and you really don't know, you could do the math and try to calculate how many months we're into this year and that good reads makes it easy for you. It makes you help. Helps you see, like, I am making progress. I am becoming a reader, but just that. The mirror little button that says I'm finished, you clicked the button button unfinished. That's incredibly satisfying for some reason. I don't know why, but it feels like you're making progress. Is this fun? You read a book, you get on good rates, click on finish, and it just bumps you up one. It seems still even man, that's for me, it's just a fi and I've heard that from a lot of people that that little thing helps them push through. So maybe some more difficult books or, um, yeah, that's a key thing. So organizing. I think getting, I use Evernote, I think very highly of it. Um, it's free. It syncs to your phone and your computer and just getting all my thoughts into Evernote. All my that's. What I read on the Kindle is I want to get everything. If I read on paper and I highlight it, it's just something myself, somewhere in the garage. This happens to me all the time. I'll be, I'll be given a sermon on prayer. And I will forget that I read four different books on prayer. I don't even remember that. I read the book much less, that there was a brilliant insight in that book. Right. But when I'm, I'll just search the word prayer and Evernote and it'll pull up 53 notes about prayer. Some of them are not relevant, but then I'll be like, Oh man, I read Paul Miller's book on prayer. And that book was crazy good. You know, like it's just, um, I think it helps, it kind of has an external brain that helps when you do. You just don't remember what you, you did like last week, much less a couple of years ago. And so if you can just have it all in Evernote and it's searchable and you can just search, um, specific phrases, um, like even thinking about, and talking on those podcasts this morning, um, I just looked up, you know, readers are leaders or you have reading and I just pulled up 50 notes and I can kind of look through some of the thoughts I've had and it helps. Just helps get it all in one place. Um,

David: 39:36

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's good advice. I've heard a lot of people recommend Evernote over the years. I've I've always just stuck with Apple notes, Similar,

Tim C: 39:45

it's a little more robust and I think just more searchable and it's yeah, you can. I mean, I keep everything in my life. I never know. I keep, you know, which restaurant I liked and what food I ordered at that restaurant and what my, you know, what size my wife wears. I can remember when her birthday comes around or what candy my kids like. So when their birthday comes around, I can get them the candy, the lag or everything. I want to remember. I put in Evernote so that I don't have to. So in the book, getting things done, one of his key concepts on productivity is that brains are for having gods, not for holding them. So you're not, your brain is not meant to hold. That's what stresses you out is trying to hold thoughts in your brain and trying to remember, like, okay, I gotta remember to get that done. Or I got to remember that my one kid, you know, like sour, Skittles, not playing Skittles anyway. Like that's not what your brain is for your brain is for having brilliant thoughts and creative thoughts. And the more you can offload on to Evernote, the more it frees your brain up to, to think.

David: 40:45

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Uh, just for those that might not be familiar, you referenced getting things done. Excellent productivity book by David Allen. I read that probably 15 years ago. It was. Massively helpful for me. Tim. Appreciate everything that you have shared just super helpful, man. And just honestly challenging. Uh, I love talking books. I love talking strategy. And so just super fun connecting With you and just a like-minded guy with a similar heart, similar passion to speaking though, just in word of conclusion, just, we talked a lot about reading, talked a lot about building a habit of reading. anything else you would say for someone that's listening that is like, man, I'm starting to see the value of reading. I get what you're saying. There's a lot of other wisdom out there that I don't directly have. And yeah. Reading is a very good, accessible way to get it. I'm hearing you about the importance of developing an ability to focus, and maybe they're starting to track with this conversation a little bit. What would you say to someone who doesn't have a habit of reading at all? Just to help them get started?

Tim C: 41:47

That is a good question. I think one thing habits help you do is a, they don't require willpower, which seems a little bit counterintuitive. But I think you tend to think of someone who reads a lot as being really disciplined or the manager can't do that. I'm just not a disciplined person or man. They just most have a lot of willpower to just to make sure they stick to that schedule. But habits while I think there's a life-changing. And I think they're incredibly in line with scripture and how, um, the Bible talks about how we change, you know, how we're transformed by the renewing of our mind. I do. I think this is how God has made us is that we are changed by, by things we repeatedly do. Like your life has made up of mostly, um, habits that you, you subconsciously you do without even thinking about it just automatic. So when you get in the car, you buckle your seat belt. You don't have to think hard and be like, you know, I don't want to die. I have a family. I'm going to put my seatbelt on this time. No, you just instinctively do it. It does not take willpower or disciplined about your seatbelts on. You're trying to get more and more in your things that you want to be about and the things you want to do on autopilot like that. You want to make them a good, healthy habit. And on the converse, you're trying to kill bad habits and you're trying to make them visible. So you're, I do think that's why I said phones. Like I think, you know, screens, Netflix phones, TV shows, um, you're trying to make those bad habits visible to yourself. So you're not on autopilot with those things. And then you're trying to make. Good habits easier and more likely that you'll do them. That's why I think it's so key to have to, you know, read for one of the first things you read is to read a book on habits and how your brain works and how, um, how to make things visible. How do things make things more likely? So one thing that makes a habit more likely to happen is just to have a plan you're twice as likely to go work out tomorrow. If you set your bag out, Winter's gym shoes by the end of your bed, just statistically you're twice as likely to go work out tomorrow, because basically what's happening is you're convincing your brain. Hey, we are people who work out. That's what we do. And then your, your, your morning self wakes up and you're like, no, I'm not that kind of person you're. And your night self was like, yes, we are. I remember we said this, we were going to do it. And we put our stuff out. And so then you're your morning self who doesn't want to do it as like, alright, I guess we did decide that, you know, you're just, you're trying to trick yourself almost into convincing yourself that I'm the kind of person who reads. I am a reader. I'm a kind of person who works out and that's just who I am. And so it's kind of a weird. A weird deal, how that works, but so getting that's the only way to read more that I know of is just to get it into your schedule, get it to where it's it's automatic. So one of the key concepts in habit forming is called habit stacking. So trying to attach new habits, you're trying to do that are good to habits you already have in your life. So for example, I drink coffee every morning. I was trying to add the habit of, I just want them to dry. I need to drink more water. And so every morning now I just. Stacked on my habit of, you know, I drink coffee, I just make myself drink a full coffee cup full of water. Before I had my first cup of coffee. I attach that habit to an existing habit. So with reading, I just, I already have my clients on every morning. I just did I just stacked on the habit of reading for another 15 or 20 minutes, right after that, while I'm focused. Um, so that, that idea of habit stacking or, or just. They say it like, if you want to S you know, you want to work out a little more than before you watch a Netflix show. Oh, I have the habit of I'm going to earn that by doing 25 pushups, you know, every, every show was going to do that, or just trying to attach that to habits you're already doing in your life. Cause I think. I have books in my life that I am never finishing. They're just been sitting on that bookshelf for years because I don't fit into those three categories that I read and they don't fit into my morning reading. They're not an audio book and they're not fun that I read at night. They're just kind of more serious or philosophical books. And man, I'm, I've been a third of the way through that book for about a year and a half, you know, it did just don't fit into my existing habits. So I don't get them done. I don't have the willpower to plow through those books when I would rather look on my phone, you know? So I do think figuring out how to get them into your schedule, if you get it into your schedule, it will happen if you don't. It's probably not going to happen because it requires a ton of willpower.

David: 46:13

Yeah. Yeah. That's good advice, Tim. Just figuring out a way having a plan. Uh, the more you can. Reduce resistance to where it's like, you know, like you said, with the gym clothes of just having it out to where, when you wake up and you're tired, you know, you're not having to think like, wait, where am my socks again? And it's dark and you can't find them. And it's at the bottom of a laundry basket. So just applying that similar principle to reading, trying to reduce the resistance plan ahead, just prioritize it, make a goal, maybe mineral, maybe the goal is. Hey, I want to read a book once a month, just figuring out a plan and going for it. I know you referenced a couple of books earlier. Certainly a can, can link to that as well. Atomic habits being a great book on habits, uh, perhaps is a great place to start. So Tim, this has been a super fun conversation, man. Really just appreciate you taking the time to share about this journey that you've been on. Developing a habit of reading and how that's helped you personally, how that's helped you in your leadership and, uh, how that's just helps you in your ability to think and to focus. And so, man really just appreciate you taking the time today. Thank you.

Tim C: 47:23

Yes, thanks for having me. I love talking about this stuff and love what you're doing and help him encourage other people to walk with God and be more effective in their ministry and loving others.

David: 47:34

That's great. Well, man, maybe we can do it again sometime. I know you've got a lot of other insights and things that you can share, but again, man, thanks for your time. Appreciate you.