Growing in Christ, Sharing the Gospel, and Multiplying Disciples with Carol Mkize

Carol Mkize, Director of Every Nation Campus in Southern Africa, joins for a great conversation about growing in Christ, evangelism, and a discussion weighing the value and potential danger of advanced theological education. 

When she was an undergraduate student, Carol thought she was “living her best life,” but on the inside she was dying. 

She shares about her personal journey to faith in Christ, the importance of continual learning as a minister of the Gospel, why she is currently pursuing theological education at Oxford University in the UK, and how God used her empowering approach to discipleship and evangelism to rapidly grow a movement for Christ on campus.

Transcript

David: 0:37

Well, I'm here with Carol and Keizai Carol. So nice to have you on the podcast today.

Carol M: 0:43

Thank you Dave, for having me. It's good to be here

David: 0:45

Absolutely Carol. I am delighted. And just excited to talk with you. If I could take a moment to introduce you to the audience. Carol has been on staff with every nation campus in South Africa for 16 years. And Carol, you were currently the director of every nation campus in Southern Africa, which is, is a, a region beyond the nation of South Africa. Carol you've really bring with you a wealth of experience and just excited to talk about some of the things that you have experienced and done in ministry as a, as a woman, as a black woman in Africa. If you, if you could tell us just a little bit more about your experience, because I feel like you've, you've certainly lived a lot of life and, and led in a lot of capacity. I don't know that my brief introduction, even. Fully does justice. Uh, could you just share a little bit about your journey in campus ministry and even your journey as a believer

Carol M: 1:44

Yeah, so maybe I can start by sharing a little bit about, about myself. Thank you Dave, for again, having me, I was born in a small town called which is, um, freedom in English. That's an Afrikaans word. Um, and I come from a home of five children. I'm the middle child. Um, so number three in line and yes, I've got all the qualities of a middle. Child, um, growing up, I wanted to be a doctor and the reason I wanted to be a doctor was because I wanted to help people. I wanted to see people healed and I used to imagine myself having deep conversations with my patients and, um, helping them resolve their health issues. And my dad was my biggest cheerleader, um, of my, of my dream. But he passed away in my senior year of high school and I was, I was a proper, that is good. So that shattered my world. I lost my faith and I grew up in a religious home, but I wouldn't say that I had a personal relationship with God. So after my dad's death, I stopped going to church and I did. Um, um, and after that, um, I did a science foundation cause, um, and continued with biological science degree at Vince unit adverts university. But my cousin invited me to church. Um, she would often invite me to church, um, and I was just not interested at all. And I was living what, what people would call or what the young people today would call living my best life. That's what I thought. Um, and my group of friends, um, we were one of the popular groups on campus for the wrong reasons. Um, and one day we went out, you know, partying and I think that evening we were, we, you know, we just, we overdid it to be honest. Um, we overdid the drinking and I was highly intoxicated and couldn't even remember how we got back to our residence. Um, so I slept the whole day hung over obviously and skipping all my meals. Um, we had a dining hall away. We would fish out meals. Skipped all of them. And I finally woke up at 6:00 PM. The dining hall was closed and, um, and there was no place for me to get food. So I phoned my cousin to check if she had anything from the dining hall. Um, and she said, no, but she did. She said to me, but look, you can come with me to church because they give coffee and biscuits after the service. And well, to be honest, I only agreed, um, because of the, of the biscuits. So. I went with her. And, um, when we got to the service, uh, honestly it was not focusing on, on the service I wanted to, I just wanted it to end so that I could get to the biscuits. But th but you know, the campus director then timber, my lover, who was preaching, um, you know, w you know, gave the, an opportunity to those who wanted to give their lives to Christ. And there are a couple of students who, who went down to receive that prayer. I'm just focusing on just in the service already so that we can actually go out and he starts praying and he stops in the middle of it. And he says, Well, there's someone here. You, you, you didn't come because you wanted to come to church. You came for something else. And Dave, to be honest, I remember just thinking for that moment. Wow. Churches have become really good. Like what? I mean, obviously the load, there are a lot of people who actually are here, not for the, for the right reasons. Um, You know, and, and so, you know, two people went down and he starts praying and he stops and he says, no, this person is not here. So I thought, wow. It looked at my cousin. I was like, I think they, they can sense that they are sinners in this room. So could you just go down, you know, like, and get paid for? And she's like, I'm a Christian, what are you talking about? And I remember just like sitting there thinking what is going on. Like this guy needs to pray so I could get to the biscuits, but in that moment, Um, Dave, I had an encounter which now I've come to understand that it was an encounter with Christ and the conversation started in my head where I thought to myself, what if I'm the person? Um, and I was completely angry with God. And I thought, no, there's no ways because I don't want nothing to do with God. And, um, and so as it continued and he started praying and I thought to myself, you know what. I'm actually going to go down to get pressed so that I can actually get outside to get my biscuits. That was my strategy. And so the reason why I stood up was because I was, I wanted to get to the biscuits. Um, and, and just before I hit the last step to get to, you know, to, to the front. And, um, I just remember just experiencing a love that I couldn't explain. And I just knew it just, it felt like what I would call a reunion. I love, I had never felt in my life, even, not even from my parents. Um, and at that moment when he started praying, I just broke down. And I thought to myself, Oh my goodness. It was me all along and everything just opened up like the anger, the bitterness, the just, you know, in that moment. And I got ministered to, and I, you know, prayed the prayer of salvation. Um, and so what's weird is that I, I didn't get to the biscuits. I remember, you know, you know, I'm having this moment and asking a lot of questions and just. You know, God really ministered to me that evening. And I just knew, and I forgot about the biscuits when I got to my room.

David: 7:08

That's so funny.

Carol M: 7:09

Um, and so a month later, so I joined the group, um, then we called it the purple book, which is the political foundations by rice Brooks, um, Steve Morrow and, um, for Vanessa and I started going through biblical foundations, um, and understanding, you know, salvation and stuff. And, um, baptism, I got baptized in the Holy spirit for, in, in, in water. It was just, I started this beautiful journey, but you know, my friends didn't understand what, what happened to me. Um, I no longer was interested in joining them. And then a month later, There was a campus harvest, which we now call every nation campus conferences, um, in Cape town. And so we traveled from Johannesburg to Cape town. And when I, when, when I, we arrived at the conference, there were a thousand students and I thought they had that many young people who actually follow Christ. It was just mind-boggling for me. And I'm at that conference. Um, during worship, uh, we had, um, um, profit gymnasts when the, um, rice Brooks was there, preaching pastor prayed for that was there preaching. And during, um, worship, I, I felt the Lord spoke to me and said, I want you. To give up your Isaac. And I was like, what's an Isaac. So I, you know, like looked at my friend and I was like, could what's the story of Isaac? Listen, I've just gotten saved. I never used to read my Bible. Um, and so, um, you know, she explained to me that Abraham had to give up Isaac and I thought, wow, okay. So what's my Isaac and my Isaac and my idol was to become a doctor. Um, and Jim LaFond gets up and he says, It's someone here who God has spoken to you very clearly about giving up your Isaac and I just sobbed. Um, and so I just knew that the Lord had called me into, in full-time campus ministry, and that's how Jenny started. And, um, It was the best decision of my life. I've been in campus ministry for 16 years. I have loved every moment of it. I have seen students who are now, you know, have their own families and have become everything that we've paid for while they were students. Um, You know, I I've seen so much in campus ministry. I've seen transformation in our campus. We had a load of students who came from a lot of students, black students in South Africa come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Um, and it's almost impossible for them to go through, um, you know, university without financial precious and, um, And we've seen God, you know, like really transformed their lives, um, to a point where they've graduated and started their own families and transformed even some of their family members and been able to help them, you know, get higher learning education. So it's been, it's been a privilege and a joy of my life to be in Memphis ministry. Sorry, a long answer,

David: 10:03

no, that's, that's amazing. I loved every, every moment of that. That was just amazing. Carol, how did you feel like I probably should give a word of translation for our American audience. I think. That we use a different word. So you, you were kept referring to the biscuits. You were, you were in this meeting and you were looking forward to the biscuits afterwards. And I think w w what you, the word you use for, for biscuit? I think that refers to what Americans call cookie.

Carol M: 10:28

Cookies. Yes. Yes. Okay. Sorry about that. Cause I, I remember coming to America first time hearing, um, over a biscuit, which was very different from what I, I knew, you know? Um, yeah. Cookies. That's that's that's the word?

David: 10:44

Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah. W w when we call something biscuits, usually it's more of like a piece of bread. Uh, and so it's just interesting how the language is different in that way. Um, but I love that. That's awesome. Just how God met you and how your life was impacted. Just so personally. And so, so deeply as you took those steps with Christ, that that even in that first meeting that you described where, uh, I mean, God was, was just unveiling some things in your heart and he was dealing with you and you were just having a really powerful moment there so much, so that. You forgot about the cookies or the biscuits afterwards? I love that. Yeah. I find in, in student ministry and I guess in ministry in general, just, uh, who doesn't like food, I mean,

Carol M: 11:30

Yeah, exactly.

David: 11:31

how you, you can come for the food and then, you know, you get so much more than that. You get God himself revealing himself to you and drawing you close. Uh, so. Praise the Lord. I love that story that you shared Carol. So thank you for doing that. By the way, I just occurred to me, Carol, you were actually the first ever, uh, international guest on this podcast. And so I just feel like I just needed to point that out that this is a special milestone in this podcast.

Carol M: 12:00

Whoa. What an honor. Thank you for having me as an international guest.

David: 12:06

absolutely.

Carol M: 12:07

know, I feel really, I mean, I felt honored, but now I feel super on it.

David: 12:13

No. Well, Carol. Yeah, if we could continue it, just even speaking of international elements, you are our leading in every nation campus, Southern Africa. But in fact, you're, you're currently pursuing some graduate studies in the UK. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Carol M: 12:31

Yeah. Um, so I, we decided to move to the UK, um, about a year ago to come and study it at Oxford university. Um, and really what, what motivated me to, to pursue this, um, Cause was, um, you know, was because it is a traditional university with a long history and academic excellence, and I've always wanted to come and study here. Um, and many of the theologians whose work I respect, um, either studied here, lectured at this time. Very same university. And so, um, it offered a course in pure theology and an area that I have been yearning to. And at the moment I have strong leadership qualities, um, and I've always felt focused on that. Um, and yeah, just needed to get ATP exposure in theology. And this program they offer was more appealing to me, not only from a delay. Developmental, um, point of view, but also instrumenting foundation's built on philosophy. Um, so I was also interested in meeting like minded students, um, with different backgrounds and to enhance their learning experience and also how to feel, how to be a student again, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So that's part of the reason why I came here.

David: 13:51

Yeah. Yeah, that's excellent. Yeah. I'm a big believer in ongoing learning. And of course that can take many different forms from just picking up good books and reading them to more formalized study in an academic programs and things like that. Uh it's it's interesting though, in. Sort of the world of Christian ministry and how sometimes there can be this disconnect between the academic and more of the practical hands-on. And I found that because I've pursued some higher level education as well. Uh, in fact, in, uh, at a seminary in the U S and, uh, it's interesting. Sometimes it seems like the people that are. Pursuing these degrees have a disconnect from day-to-day hands-on ministry, but then I also find the opposite where sometimes those that are in many cases really bearing some wonderful fruit, actually out reaching the lost, actually discipling people that, that. Again, I'm generalizing here that, that many times, those people don't have a lot of formal education, uh, in a seminary or, or higher level graduate degrees in theology. Uh, and there can be almost this. Sometimes the hands-on workers. Sometimes there can be a little bit more of a. A skepticism about advanced education that, Oh, if you get there, your, your head is going to get big and your heart is going to get cold.

Carol M: 15:17

Cold.

David: 15:18

I, so I'm curious, is that something that you've wrestled with and is how, how has that been for you so far during your studies at Oxford?

Carol M: 15:27

Yeah. I mean, you've explained, you've explained it well. Um, um, Dave, I think being on the other side of, you know, practical ministry, that seems like exactly what I. You know, you get that, don't go and pursue theology. You're going to be, you're going to become dry. Um, and there's nothing there for you. But on the other side in academia, I find that they end up in the books more, um, and less practical, uh, ministry. So I think for me, I'm going to advantage because I have done, you know, the practical work or ministry. Um, and I feel that I'm a little bit more mature now to be able to actually. You would with the academic side of it. Um, but also I'm only doing it for like two years, a year and a half. So I'm going to be on my way out. What I also did is that I did not disconnect from my work. Um, My ministry works. So with the world and the way it looks now, it's, it's made it easier for me to be able to do my, the practical side of ministry. And I still continue to disciple people, mentor people, um, over zoom and, and still get to do. Ministry, but I've found that the challenge, the challenge this side is that, um, it does, you know, I can see why people are a bit hesitant to come in and pursue it because it can feel a little bit dry. And, um, and, and, and, and God feels like a steady more than someone that you can experience and have a relationship with.

David: 16:52

Yeah, it's true. Yeah. I think sometimes people, again, perceptions can be diff different, but those that aspire to go to seminary, pursue graduate study in theology, uh, whether at a university or at a seminar, Mary sometimes can have this idea that it's going to be just this constant euphoria. And you're just going to be having constant aha moments where God is showing you new things, but then you get there and. Not every book that you're assigned to read is exciting for you. And it is a lot of work. And so there could be, yeah, it can be a little bit disheartened. I mean, you're not just sitting there having a, uh, extended, quiet time, you know, every day for eight hours. I mean, you can read some, some things that at times can be quite dry that, that not every highly respected theologian is a compelling writer. I mean, I

Carol M: 17:43

Yes, it's so

David: 17:44

uh, so it is

Carol M: 17:45

I don't have to imagine it's I'm living it right now.

David: 17:49

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, that's great, Carol. Well, I'm excited for you where you're at in your journey. And just even to hear what you learned through this experience, I'm a little envious you're at Oxford university. I mean, I can only think of, I mean, Cambridge and Oxford, those are some of the really most highly respected universities in the world. And so that's gotta be a fantastic opportunity for you.

Carol M: 18:12

It really is.

David: 18:13

Yeah, well, before we move off of that, I'm just curious to know you've you've been there for a while now. for those of us that, that aren't currently at Oxford that don't have that opportunity? could you share with us that you've learned from your journey so far? That's been helpful there at Oxford.

Carol M: 18:31

She knows to be honest, I've loved. Um, I love history. So, what I've enjoyed mostly about, about, um, Oxford university is the, the access to knowledge and, um, research. Um, so you know, some of the things that I've learned, firstly for me with all the knowledge that you could get, um, I have just learned that simplicity of a solid relationship with God, um, and the need for that need for, to cultivate that. Um, and as much as I'm learning all these great, um, I mean, learning from these great theologians, but I found is that it's better for me to still dig into the word of God, myself, um, then to rely on, on their interpretation of it. And, um, but I've got to say, I say that also, this is everything that I imagined and more in terms of just the access to, to, um, to knowledge, to. Research, just some of the best and the libraries are amazing. So I, you know, the week apparently on lockdown and that's the difficulty at the moment is that we can't really go into the libraries as, as much as we could, but it's, um, I'm, I'm learning so much and really grateful for this for the season and opportunity. Um, and there's so much to say, so I know I'm not doing justice to your question, but, um, But th there's, there's a lot to learn, but I mean, at the core of it, to be honest, Dave is that w with the Lord, I started getting over, becoming overwhelmed with how much I needed to, to learn and grow. And, um, that, you know, in that overwhelming feeling thing that became very apparent for me is that whether I'm at Oxford university or I'm at I'm in South Africa doing ministry, um, there is a deep need for me. To get into the word of God and, and, and really, um, do the reading and the learning and the studying myself. Um, and not rely on, you know, other people's, um, yeah. Findings of, uh, of that. So that's been it's, uh, it's something that I've, I've, I've come to treasure, um, and. Kind of constituent apart from people who are just approaching this from the perspective of just wanting to learn more about either God or Christianity in terms of like the history of it, but never really having the experience of it. Um, you know, I think that you can study, you know, Jesus and the history as much as you can, but if you won't allow, you know, the, the person of Jesus Christ to actually. Um, come into your heart and have that personal relationship and experience him. Then there's a lot to miss out, even with the best institution in the world. Yeah.

David: 21:30

well said, Carol. Yeah. That's, that's excellent. Thank you for that insight and that encouragement. I it's just, it's an encouraging that, that perspective that you have, uh, which I, I appreciate so much is that Christianity is not anti intellectual. It's not anti knowledge. Uh, but yet. W w what's more important than gaining knowledge is, is really that relationship with the Lord and had, you know, Jesus, he draws near to us and it's not dependent just upon. How many degrees we have or on what university we've attended to, or even if we've gone to university at all, or if, and if we can read, I mean, he, he draws near to centers and, and so really that bar for entering into a relationship with him, it's, it's not some high. Academic bar by any means, is that far from it? In fact, the opposite from it that he draws near to each of us, uh, and that if we would just respond to him, man, we can, we can know him and that in some ways the, the simplest, person might actually be better off, uh, in that way. Then somebody that is highly educated, but yet doesn't actually know God. And so I think it's just important to have a. A nuanced view of education that, yeah, it's education has not bad, but, but there's a danger there that you can, as the scripture say, knowledge puffs up love, builds up and so knowledge, it can be a tool for good, or it could also be a tool to really build up pride in our hearts. That actually would further keep us away from God. And so, uh, anyway, not to, not to just get on a mini soapbox

Carol M: 23:09

it's. Yeah, but that's really good. And it's true. Um, that's really good. Yeah.

David: 23:16

well, Carol, um, just to come back to an earlier part of your journey, And even as it relates to your studies, I think it's interesting too, that you had a lot of experience, both walking with the Lord as a believer, and then also as a minister of the gospel prior to even embarking on this journey that you're on now at Oxford university, 16 years on staff with every nation campus in Southern Africa. Could you just talk a little bit about your journey prior to that time? Because again, some people related to education might think, Oh, wait, if I want to bear fruit in ministry, if I want to. Be a faithful minister of the gospel. Therefore I must go get a graduate degree first before I try to do anything. And that's certainly not what your experience was. Could you just talk a bit about your journey even as it relates to actually doing the ministries, even as a student, but also as a campus minister, what was that like for you early on? And, uh, talk about that, that the fruitfulness that you experienced there.

Carol M: 24:19

I, I completely agree with you. And I think this is why I'm such a huge advocate of people experiencing. Um, you know, experiencing God and not really, um, learning about him because I I've experienced, um, fruits that I don't think that required a lot of, um, learning. Um, so when I first started out in campus ministry, I started out as a student and, um, and we, um, sorry, I'm, I'm having too many thoughts in my head, but, but, but, um, starting out to the student, I started off by serving. Um, and I think for me, I was quite eager because I came, I came from the other side of, um, being an evangelist in the opposite direction. So I wanted to, to, um, to reach out, you know, um, and, and, and shape my experience and the gospel in its true sense. And, and I started seeing fruit, but how it happened is that when I, you know, the residents that I lived in. There weren't um, let me just make sure I'm answering the right question. Um they've

David: 25:35

Oh, it's okay. Yeah. Uh, yeah, Carol, just to rephrase that, basically, just I'm thinking about your journey in campus ministry and how. Uh, you know, you, you, you were, you were making disciples, you were helping students come to Christ. And so it sounds like that started while you were still a student, but then as you became a campus minister and took that role on as a staff member and vocationally, You were, seeing fruit, uh, you were seeing people come to know Christ. You were see, I mean, you talked earlier about some of the students that you were involved in ministering to now they're so much further along in life there they're walking with the Lord that they have families they're in a career and just really seeing lives changed. And so I guess I just wanted to come back to that part of your story in light of what we were talking about with education. Because I guess again, I think some people, they, they hear about education and especially at a prestigious university and they might think, Oh man, I don't, I don't, I don't know if I can. Be faithful to God. I don't know if I can actually do ministry without this and your story, sir, seems to indicate that that wasn't the entry point. That that's something that you're pursuing much later on that you've seen a lot of effectiveness and impact along the way. So that

Carol M: 26:56

Yeah. Yes. Okay. So that's that's I think I was answering that I question. So, yeah. Um, it's, it's, it's true that, um, you, you, you actually don't need that. So for me, when I, when, when I, you know, became. Uh, Christian, um, Still as a student, I shared earlier that I went to this conference, um, campus hovers conference, which is campus conference now, um, and, um, was really struck by how many young people actually. We're following Christ, but also the transformation that I had experienced in my life that I didn't want to go back to my old life. My friends, my, you know, my old friends are still pursuing me. And I knew that for me, I really needed to just like dive deep into, um, You know, applying the pinnacle principles that I had learned. So I started off inviting my friends that the very friends who are not saved, um, and, and, and that I used to hang around with, um, for coffee, for coffee evenings, I started a small group, um, with them. And, um, we would do a chapter of biblical foundations. The reason why that became easy for me to do was because of. Of the friendship, obviously, that, that we had. Um, and they wanted to understand what happened to me. So I said to them, well, why don't you come in and do the book that I'm doing and see what happens at the end. And if you don't believe, you don't believe in that. That's all right. And so we started going through the biblical foundations and out of the eight, eight, nine of my friends that I had invited, um, eight of them actually, Then by not even by the end, like halfway, some of them started, you know, expressing the, the, the, the need to, to, to receive Christ into their hearts. And, um, and so we did that and, and then, then I, I suggested that we started inviting some of our, you know, like. Other friends, you know, what did we invite more people? And we started inviting more people to join this. Um, and so after six weeks I had about 40 people coming to my room to, to do these biblical foundations. Now I've got to say this. When I went to my, to my campus director, I said to them, I don't really know. How to walk with people or preached the gospel to them. So why don't I bring them to you and you do that. And then I can help with like, walking with them. He said, no, you've reached the people you do that. And I'm like, but I don't know anything about like, I mean, I've only read a couple of chapters of the Bible and he said, well, I'll teach you. So I'll go through the biblical foundations with you, a chapter, and then you go and you teach them. And so that's how we did it. And so at the end of like the eight weeks. When I went back to him, I was like, well, now you need to help me because they asking way more questions that I don't understand. And he was like, well, okay. Um, I can come in and visit you guys and see what what's happening. He walks in and is like, yeah, there are lots of people here. This is not a group. This is a church. And so he was like, you've got to split this. This is not a small group. This is like, this is, you literally have a church in here. I was like, Oh really? Well, I didn't know, like if people kept inviting people, um, and I, you know, like used to be part of the evangelism team on campus, I just wanted to serve that. That was my heart. Um, really, to be honest and I wanted to grow and I wanted to learn. And because I also came with the idea that you needed to have to know more information and you needed to, you know, learn theology, but. The Lord, just, you know, he moved with black, the people who like came to know him and then would start sharing. And I think for me the keys that just start sharing, you know, like, um, the gospel and don't wait. And so I fell in love with second Corinthians five 21. He made him who knew no sin to become sin and out behalf so that we might become the righteousness of God. And this is where I would start with them. And then I'll go all the way back to, um, the 17 that is in Christ. He's a new creation, the oldest gun than us camp. And that's pretty much what I would, I would, I would use and then talk about like reconciliation and, um, and so even going into chemist ministry, because I had experienced that kind of fruit where I knew. Uh, pretty much nothing. Um, you know, not only just the part, like the Bible, I was still growing and learning, but yet God still moved and people still received him. I think I approached campus ministry in that same thing, that this is not about me. It's about God. If I weighed myself and I become the vessel that he needs me to be. Um, but also being faithful in growing in my personal relationship with him. And so. I was accountable. I was, you know, being discipled, but at the same time, I just came with that approach that we don't need to know everything. And we can start with where we are, um, and start with the people that are closest to you. Cause it's possibly easier or start with your, with your classmates. And so I started doing that with my peers. Um, you know, when I go to class, I share with them during the breaks, like. You know, not only do you know, Christ, I'll take it from the conversations we having. And then I shared with them that, you know, I used to have the same questions and, you know, one day I started getting answers to my questions. And if you don't mind, do you want us to go through the biblical foundations that I've gone through? And if you, you know, if it answers your questions great, if it doesn't, well, you're more than welcome to continue with life. And, and, and so from that approach, that's how I also approached campus ministry was, you know, I, I. You know, I'm a very myself and God is the one that convicts the hearts and he does the work. And so that's how we sold it, you know, the fruits and so, uh, campus ministry, when I started, when I took over was about 72, maybe average 90 students, um, attending our Sunday services. And, um, and when we started, when I was, you know, reaching out and with the evangelism, um, bye bye. So I took over in 2016 by the end of 27, I'm sorry, 2006. But, um, as a campus director, by the end of 2007, we had grown to about 350 students and went on to grow to about 800 students who were attending. And we had about 650 students average who were in connected in, in small groups. Um, and we went up as, as. As much as, um, about 110, um, connect group leaders. Those are the small group leaders who, who lead, um, or the discipleship leaders who lead, um, the small groups, um, in our congregation. But it wasn't because I had, um, I had some qualification from a seminary. Um, it really was just the, the heart to see the lost saved, um, and the fruit came.

David: 33:41

Carol that's. That's fantastic. That that's just so powerful. So encouraging, so inspiring. I love that. Love that. Well, yeah. I almost just want to camp out there and just like, kind of have a moment of reflection and, and praise it's a God, I just love hearing your story and just of the fruit, that it really was born out of just a simple obedience that even as a student, you know, you weren't, I mean, you didn't have some. Kind of elaborate strategy for this or that you were just simply trying to share Jesus with the students that were around you and, and over time, it sounds like you, if I heard you, right, you had over the course of a week 40 students that are approaching you and trying to go through this Bible study with you, or you're helping them explore the, the core teachings of the Christian faith. And you're helping them. Take initial steps with Christ and just, as you were faithful, really seeing that fruit. Uh, and I know that. It can be discouraging for students that feel like they're the only one trying to follow Jesus or for a campus minister that, and especially in the year that we've been through, but even in a non pandemic year that, uh, the university campus isn't exactly the most friendly place to Christian faith. There's a lot of, uh, just tension around trying to live faithfully as a follower of Christ and, and fulfill his mission in that. Environment, of course, it's not only there. I mean, that's the world that we live in, but what for you helped you to boldly live in that way? Was there, did you feel that any kind of resistance and if so, how did you overcome that? Whether as a student or as you were a staff member

Carol M: 35:32

Yeah, there's a lot of resistance, you know, talk about like from management to, um, students themselves. Um, it's, it's not, like you mentioned, it's not the friendliest place to, to try and proclaim you, your, your faith or preach the gospel. Um, and I think for me, Um, instead of I learned the hard way I joined a program that was the evangelism team and we would, um, you know, um, brainstorm and think of outreaches and, um, and how to reach our campus. And we'd go to different residences to, to kind of go and preach the gospel there. And most of them were quite discouraging and the people were not receptive to it and they were not interested at all. And I just, I remember thinking, well, Um, we obviously can't reach everyone like in big groups and they're not interested in coming to events that Christians have put together. How about I just start reaching out to the people that I have access to that I, you know, like, um, that I'm not. Trying to stop and have conversations with, but they had have to be next to me. So for instance, when I was in class, I've got someone sitting on my left, someone sitting on my right or my friends that I would attend classes with, or my friends at my residence. Um, those are the people that I had at my disposal. And I think starting from there taught me a good lesson of the fact that even in campus ministry, instead of trying to have, um, constantly have big events, That, um, you empower the students to be the ones that reach their friends. And so everything would be around teaching people, um, to, to just simply share the gospel. And when people would say, but I don't know a lot of scripture as well. Why don't you just share about what God did. For you and then take them to the scriptures that you already know that we've learned, um, you know, from expanding what, what, what sin is and salvation. Um, and so I think for me, you know, my, my encouragement, particularly when you, when you feel like you're alone, I was, you know, biological science students. So you can imagine. You know, in learning about evolution and our, our lecturers are not interested in talking about creation. Um, in fact, they speak negatively about creation. Um, and so, you know, you, you outnumbered in classes like that, where people believe more in science than they do, you know, like in, in, in. Christianity or faith. Um, and so I think it's just taking those, those small steps of looking at what's at your disposal, um, and then trusting God to, to be able to open those doors, um, and then let it, you know, building building slowly from that, you know, I, I am a firm believer of what, what pastor Steve Merrill always says is that foster, you know, um, slow is fast. Um, and, and I, and I think. That sometimes we underestimate how much could come out of just reaching two or three, um, people. Um, the end of that, if they go and reach two or three people, and those people are going to be two or three people, that's how you end up with, um, you know, massive fruit, but it starts with being faithful with just what's at your disposal. That's my encouragement that. Um, if you're the only one don't be disheartened or discouraged, um, the Lord will lead you to at least one or two people and think of the people that are already there instead of people that you need to go out there and reach. And I find that that also just, um, it's, it's less intimidating when you go to people that are already around you in, in your, in your sphere of influence and not so much have to kind of think of, um, You know, big ideas of how to reach people out there that are strangers. Now, obviously there are moments when we, we can think of strategies like that and we can reach out to them. But I do believe that if we all, you know, empower each other, to be able to preach the gospel, um, then it's easier to reach a campus. Then when you have to be the person that has to think of how to reach a hundred people about you just started like, you know, the two or three friends that you've been praying for and share, you know, boldly and. You know, uh, practice on them is what I used to say to my students, but you're literally not practicing on them. You're really sharing it faith. Um, and, and, and I think for me, when I look back at that fruit that's, that's what encouraged me first seed was recognition of what God did in my life. Um, and how I thought I was living with, you know, my best life. But actually I was dying Trinity. I was angry. I was broken. I was sad. I was, you know, grieving. Um, the loss of my father and I, and I wanted nothing to do with God, but it's exactly what I needed. And so when I had that encounter, I just knew that I wanted my friends to experience that I wanted my loved ones to experience that it didn't just end up, you know, on campus. When I went home for Christmas, I started sharing the gospel. Um, and you know, my family members started receiving Christ because of that. So yeah.

David: 40:38

Carol that's that's so encouraging. That really is so encouraging. Yeah. And just, I love what you shared and I think it's so right on is just the focus on reaching the one that sometimes when you go out on a university campus or you're in a city and you just see these hundreds or thousands of people and have the sense that. Probably very few of them actually know the Lord that it can be overwhelming. And part of that's good. I think that the Lord can use that to help give us his heart of compassion, but it can also be paralyzing if we just think about, I have to reach these thousands of people that. Really, it doesn't start with reaching a thousand people. Usually it starts with reaching the one or the two that's right next to you and being faithful to invest in them. And that it will multiply over time. If you're faithful, just like you said, the slowest fast kind of a mindset that pastor Steve Moreau often talks about.

Carol M: 41:33

Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

David: 41:37

Very good. Well, Carol, I know there is so much more than we had planned to talk about, but I, I think that's probably a good place to stop for today. And, uh, I want to honor your time. You've been so gracious and so generous to share your story and your, insights, just your, your journey currently in academics. And I want to just thank you for taking the time to invest in. The next generation of leaders, whether it's staff workers on campus or college students currently, uh, just as we conclude any final word of encouragement or challenge that you would give to the younger leader, listening to this

Carol M: 42:18

Yeah. I mean, my, my go-to scripture is, um, um, first Timothy four verse 12 or one Timothy four verse 12 that no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example. And I think that for me is the emphasis. Set an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. And I would say, secondly, nurture your relationship with God. Um, it will keep you solid and grounded and lastly, embrace challenges, pain and hardships, because that's where you learn your biggest lessons. Or at least that's been the case for me.

David: 43:00

That's a great word, Carol. Thank you for that. And again, thank you so much for your time today. It's just been such a delight to talk with you.

Carol M: 43:08

Yeah. Thank you, Dave. This was, this was really incredible. Thank you for the opportunity.