Steve Murrell on 'Relational Discipleship' and Sustaining Lifelong Friendships in Ministry

Steve Murrell, president and co-founder of Every Nation Churches and Ministries, shares the story of how he came to faith in Jesus as a teenager, how he became an “accidental missionary” to the Philippines, and how Every Nation Ministries started after a conversation in his living room. We also talk about relational discipleship and how he and his friends have built (and sustained!) life-long friendships in the context of Christian discipleship and mission. 

Transcript

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Well, pastor Steve Morel. It is such a joy to have the opportunity to speak with you today, sir. thank you so much for making the time for this conversation, Dave, I am honored to be here and anything that is connected to campus ministry. I'm all in, and I'm so grateful for you and other campus ministers in campus, missionaries who. Are serving university students and bringing the gospel and making disciples, um, uh, that's what it's all about. And I'm grateful, honored to be here. Well, pastor Steve, thank you so much. It's truly an honor. Um, pastor Steve, I know we're, we're recording this for a couple of different purposes today, so I, I invited you to share a little bit on the college faith and leadership podcast. And then I know your team wanted to also use this for a video series that you're doing called think like a leader. And so pastor Steve, you really need no introduction for most people, but just, just in case I do want to introduce you. You've been serving in ministry for many decades. You were a campus minister turned international missionary and church planter. You have authored numerous books and you're one of the co-founders of every nation ministries and churches where you currently serve as the president. And so you've accomplished so much and you're a man that walks in. Just an admirable level of, of godliness and humility. And it's truly been an honor to, uh, learn from you and to serve under your leadership. So thank you again for the time today. I'll Dave. I appreciate it. And you know, at the heart of, I think at the heart of everything I do in ministry and have done is really campus ministry. And when I graduated Mississippi state 1981, Went straight into campus. Mission mission work. In fact, the semester before I graduated. And then even when we, my wife and I went to the Philippines, it was campus ministry. Um, so we, we really didn't even see ourselves as missionaries in the traditional sense, but we saw ourselves as campus missionaries and it, it, I think it made it, made it a lot easier for us because we didn't see a lot of difference in what we were doing at Mississippi state. And what we were doing at the Philippine campuses. It wasn't, uh, it really wasn't even much of a mind set shift culture was different, but so we're, we're campus missionaries at heart. Um, we had to learn cross cultural missionary stuff, and, uh, that was a long learning process. And some of it, we learned some of it, we didn't, but the campus part. Was always at the heart of it. And even the church planting that we've done is always the thing we say in every nation. We want one foot on the campus and one foot in the community and it's not just a slogan, that's just our life. And, and I, again, I'm so grateful for all of the vocational campus missionaries who are out there, you know, lot of the week putting both feet right in the center of the campus. And it's, it's just, uh, it's a tremendous ministry. Yeah, definitely. Well, pastor Steve for, for those, and we've got college students that listen to this, as well as college ministers, uh, for those that are not familiar with you, I've, I've had the benefit of, of hearing some of your personal story and your testimony of how you became a follower of Jesus yourself. Would you mind taking us back and sharing a little bit of what that journey was like for you as a high school student and then into college? Yeah, sure. We. I grew up in a, my mom was Catholic. My dad was not in, he didn't want to be Catholic. So when they got married, they compromised and became a fiscal. And so we were very dedicated in terms of mother's day, Easter, Christmas Eve. Um, and I didn't grow up with a, in a, in a, an extremely religious family, but when I was in high school in Jackson, Mississippi, The new youth pastor from first Presbyterian church, a guy who had just graduated from reform theological seminary. And this was his first gig youth pastor at first pres. And for some reason, since he was reformed, it had to be the sovereignty of God. He picked my high school of all the high schools in Jackson, Mississippi, and he sort of appointed himself the chaplain. He would show up at every football game, baseball game, basketball game. He would show up in the cafeteria at lunchtime and do Bible studies. And I was one of his many targets and it took about six months of Ron sharing the gospel with me. And, and, uh, I finally understood and responded in repentance and, uh, the fall of 1975, my junior year. And, um, everything changed. Um, he put me in a small discipleship group. And, uh, I didn't, I didn't actually start going to first pres I went a couple of times and everybody wore suits and the music was weird and, you know, pipe, organ, and that kind of thing. And, and I, I didn't fit, but I went every Tuesday to this Bible study with about a hundred, maybe a hundred kids from my high school. And, um, at first pres and then a small group on Thursday when it was about six of us. And. He taught us how to read the Bible. He taught us how to pray. He taught us foundational theology. He taught us how to share our faith. And I'm 16 years old and forever grateful for this youth pastor at first pres um, laying foundations in my life. And from the, from the moment I came to Christ, I knew this is what I would do. I wanted to do what Ron did. I wanted to, the way Ron helped me, uh, find Jesus and. And forgiveness and understand the gospel. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't know how to articulate it, but I wanted to be him. I wanted to do what he did. I wanted to go to campuses and, and go help students, uh, find, uh, find real faith in Christ. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. Well, pastor Steve, as you began to, to go down that path and take the steps to actually do that, what did that look like in the earliest form? Um, you know, when we were at Mississippi state, um, There were quite a few other, the many people you would know rice and I were there at rice Brooks at the cofounder of every nation. I were there together and, and we had a small campus fellowship when we were students. And. Um, it was interesting because I, I grew up in an all white world, um, you know, white private school and white country club and, you know, just family and where I grew up. That's just the way it was. And I went to college. Um, I started reaching out in the gym, playing basketball to some football players from Mississippi state. And some of these were African-American guys. They came to Christ and in my dorm, Uh, there were some Latinos and some Asians, and African-Americans had a Bible study in my dorm and it was packed with, uh, you know, it was like revelation seven, nine. It was every tribe and nation and to not everyone, but at least for that dorm. And we had a small campus fellowship that was very diverse in the late seventies, early eighties. And it was sort of an odd thing at Mississippi state's campus. It was sort of, uh, it was, um, there weren't a whole lot of. Very diverse, uh, groups on campus, but we were one and it was, um, it was pretty exciting to see where the gospel was impacting people. And, um, Hmm. So after doing that for four years of really doing ministry and going to class, the, you know, the, the guy who was running that little campus ministry, moved to another city to plant another one and he looked at me one day in December. I had another semester before I graduated, I was 20 years old. And he said, Steve, I'm moving, I'm moving to Lincoln, Nebraska to start a campus fellowship at university of Nebraska. And from now on you're in charge. And I went, Oh, well, what does that mean? I still have another semester before I graduate. He goes, no, you're in charge. We're leaving in a few weeks. And, um, he didn't ask me if I wanted to do it. He didn't ask me if I would pray about it. He didn't ask me if I felt called. He just said, you're in charge. And so I started leading those Bible studies and, and, you know, when I graduated, I just kept doing it. Um, and that's kinda how it was, it was not a big, dramatic thing. It was just what I was already doing from the time I came to Christ at 16 and then through four years of college and I just kept doing it once I graduated. Um, so that's how I ended up in ministry. Pastor, Steve, I know you sometimes refer yourself as the accidental leader, the accidental missionary. Uh, it sounds like even from a very early on point, that that was, that was the pattern of, of you. You stepped into things, not, not so much because you planned it out, but because you found yourself in a situation and. We're just desiring to be faithful to God. I know. I've heard you share about your process of actually moving overseas to Manila. Could you take us through that transition and how that came about? It was, um, after doing within a year of graduating, I got married and. And Debra and I were doing campus ministry together at Mississippi state, Starkville, Mississippi. It's a little, it's a little college town. Um, the campus is bigger than the town. You know, there's more students than citizens in the, in the town. So small college town. Um, and we loved it. Uh, we thought we would be there, grow old there, and we thought we were going to be lifers at doing that one foot on the campus. One foot of the community and start moving Mississippi. We were happy. Um, But like a lot of small college towns everything's sort of shuts down to the summer. So each year I would go on a summer mission trip, um, because the students were gone. So I I'd been doing that even when I was in college, the summers I would work half of the summer and the other res and earn some money. And then the other half of the summer go on a mission trip. And that was just sort of the pattern. And, and so. Rice calls in may or April of, uh, 1984 and said, Steve, I'm taking a summer mission team to the Philippines. Um, and he goes, I have basically said I had too many people sign up. I've got 65 people signed up. I usually take 20. And he goes, could you come and help me manage the team? So my job was to make sure, you know, you didn't get a mission team, summer missionary, summer tourists. My job was to make sure we didn't lose any tourists. Um, and, um, to manage the team. And I said, well, Raza, when are you leaving? It was like four weeks. They're leaving. And I said, well, I guess I need to raise some money how much? And I said, okay, if the money comes in, I'll go with you. Again, we didn't pray about it. We didn't, I hate to keep saying we didn't pray about it. We pray about some things, but it just, okay. There was a mission opportunity. Rice was a good friend and a Debra Anna. Hey, what you think you want to go? Well, let's see if we can raise the money and has a very generous people. I've known since high school for, I mean, even before high school, very generous, uh, Business people, you know, gave thousands of dollars to buy the tickets. And so we go and, um, we get to the Philippines and it was, it was pretty amazing what God was doing among the students. And. Something changed, uh, in may. I'll never forget the moment. It was. Um, we were doing outreaches. Rice was preaching every night for 30 days straight. And my job was when he would give an Altra call call these students. We, we rented a 600 seat auditorium. It was a girl Scouts auditorium, right in the middle of the university area of Manila. And every night he would call people to Christ and sometimes four or five people would come sometimes 30 or 40 would come forward. And my job was to take them to the side room and make sure they really understood the gospel and talk about repentance and faith and, and forgiveness of sins. And then talk about water baptism in the Baptist and the Holy spirit. And that's what I did for 30 days. And I would work with these new believers and, but on. The Sunday of week two, I was on my knees. We were having a communion service with our team and I just broke and started, started sobbing, started weeping, and it was, I don't do that very often. Uh, um, My dad's from West, Texas. And I was taught when I was a small boy that real men don't cry. I think I was five. It didn't Dawn on me that I wasn't a man or a real man, but I wasn't supposed to cry. So that didn't happen very well, but my heart was broken for the loss people, um, who needed the gospel and, and I knew I was supposed to stay. And, um, so even that it was, uh, it was a pretty dramatic moment, but we knew that God was doing something more than just that summer mission trips. So. And I am forever grateful that I was allowed to. I mean, it was a great privilege to spend most of my adult life so far in Asia, but it started with campus ministry and it was the seeing those students come to Christ. And I was in my early mid twenties at the time. And so everybody coming to Christ was they were 18, 19, 20 years old. So they saw me as this old guy who was married. Um, And they were all, you know, young college students and that was our church, you know? So the church was the campus ministry. There wasn't really any difference. It was the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. You're how, during those years, when you're in a teen teenager, I think even being a high school student and some of my teachers that had just graduated college, I viewed them as authority figures, but they're really like four or five years older than me. And the same thing was the case, certainly in the context of campus ministry where, uh, gay Bouche, one of my mentors and someone I. Uh, I'm pleased to serve with. And in my local context, he was my campus minister and he's only a few years older than me, but when you're in that situation, sometimes those even just a few years can make such a big difference in overall maturity and responsibility. Back on Ron, the guy who led me to the Lord, I thought he was a spiritual giant. The truth is he had, he went to university of Alabama straight from there. He went to reform theological seminary, and this was his first job. And he didn't have a clue what he was doing, but to me, he was a spiritual giant. Yeah. Um, yeah, because he had just finished seminary and he could throw around a few Greek words. Um, yeah. But God used him. I'm sure he learned, you know, as he, as he continued on, but yeah, it was, he sure seemed to know everything to me compared to what I knew. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. Well, that's awesome to hear. I always get inspired when I hear these stories of, of the beginnings of something. And so I, I love taking that trip down memory lane and just hearing just the raw and the real and, and what that was like, because I'm sure that, that, that probably took a lot moving, you know, going to the Philippines and then the rest of the story. I mean, to date anyway. Is, you know, you stayed there for decades and God really did something amazing. And today I know there's a church. I don't know if you want to share much about that here, but God really did something incredible through this missions work and the evangelism that was taking place on campus. That that really is just an incredible testimony. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about, over the decades of what God has done through that work in the Philippines and in Manila specifically? You know, when we. First landed in 84. Um, it was a time of massive unrest in the nation. Um, there was a lot of political upheaval. There had been coup attempts. Um, and the students as usual were the ones that were in the middle of these protests. And so we planted the church right in the middle of what's called the university belt, which is where all the protests happened. And so having tear gas, canisters blow up in and. Having Sunday worship service and Wednesday and Thursday outreach meetings and our center. And in Manila having tear gas in those meetings was not that uncommon. Um, there were times when, um, we were preaching out in those crowds, we had a megaphone and there's also a political speech and we would take a corner and would preach the gospel and, and there were awful. You know, multiple times there were violent clashes with the police and. Um, sometimes it was more than tear gas. There were maybe two occasions over a few years where people were shot, but we're just, you know, kind of young and dumb and down preaching in the middle of these and seeing an opportunity of these often it was 10, 20, 30,000 students marching. And so we put, we, we rented the basement of a movie theater right in the middle of the university area where these riots would happen. And so, um, we were open as a student center and. People would come in and trying to escape the tear gas at times, or when the confrontation would happen with the water cannons and all students would start running and we would usher them down into our student center and pray for them and preach the gospel and minister. And it was just, uh, it was, uh, it was an exciting time, a little bit crazy, but, um, uh, that's where we started in the middle of a radical season in the Philippines. And over the years seeing, um, Obviously stability happened and prosperity and, and the nation really, uh, growing and changing and, and all of that's been, yeah. Great. But it, uh, I'm just forever grateful that God allowed Deborah and I to, to be a part of he was doing, I don't think for a second, it's something we did. I think it was something he was doing and he let us be a part. And, um, our, our three sons are, we're all born and raised in the Philippines and, and I mean, that was home. And then they came to America for college and, um, but that was always home. And that was always Philippine. Christmas is how you do Christmas and, you know, Philippine birthday parties. That's how you do a birthday party. And even the way we sing happy birthday in our family and our grandkids, they sing the Filipino version of happy birthday. It's not, not the American version. Actually. We ended up having to do both, but, but it was, I. I think raising our family in, um, in a, in a different culture than we grew up in, I think was a great privilege. Uh, certainly had its challenges, but I think the concept of third culture kids were there, our hope was they would get the best of both cultures and maybe filter out things that weren't so good. We tried to do that. I'm not sure we were totally successful, but I think having third culture. Not American, not Filipino, but you know, a us passport. I think it's a huge advantage for people. So anybody thinking about going and cross-cultural missions, um, I'll just tell you the. Yeah, their sacrifice, but the goods so far outweighs the difficulty. It's not even a comparison. It's not it's, it's like what we leave at the cross to follow Jesus. I mean, what we get and what we leave, it's not even a debate. And so anyway, I, I don't know. I don't know how many are watching, considering going and investing your life in another, in another culture, another nation do it. Uh, you'll look back on it and go, wow. That was the best decision I ever made. So plug for the agreeable missions. Yes. Yeah. That's a great word. Yeah, pastor Steve, I believe. And you know, I'm sure many would agree with this is that that's one of the things that can be so strategic about college ministry is the availability of students to go to travel and, you know, college and ministers to play a role in, in leading that effort. And so I, I believe. Wholeheartedly in the importance of, of, of, of going of, of sending, um, you know, our, our best to really serve around the world. And, and so I I'm so appreciative of how you've modeled that, uh, pastor Steve, I would like to talk a little bit about the founding of every nation and even just to fast forward, a little bit in your story, as you were sharing. You were seeing God do some pretty incredible well things through this ministry in the Philippines, you mentioned rice Brooks who was a friend of yours from college and was there with you helping to reach out and evangelize their, sharing the gospel in Manila. At what point did you and he and the others involved in founding every nation, um, come to that conclusion that, Hey, this was. This is supposed to be something bigger and we're going to, we're going to really form something official and move forward with that. What did that process look like? It, it was more of a, um, how would I say not an accident, but more of a, uh, an encounter than a process. Really? It was, um, The ministry that the mission agency that we went to the Philippines on, you know, connected with dissolved itself in 1989. And so then we went from 84 to 89 and our mission support vanished overnight. Um, Rice was a huge help after that, connecting me to friends and pastors, he, he knew this guy out in West, Texas, Russ, Austin, and he said, Steve, I know your, your support has disappeared. Um, I've called Russ and he's going to let you come and preach. And he's going to be a partner. You know, many of you listening to this understand missions partnership. And so I had never met Russ and Russ was huge, became a very. It planted a church in Midland, Texas, and became a very generous partner. And I, I had a few other friends in Canada and, and a man who's been a spiritual father to me. He's, he's almost 90 now, Emmanuel kind of Stacy Pentecostal, uh, prophet and, and, and, and preacher. And he opened some doors. You know, there was the financial part that was difficult many times, but rice was a huge help and opening doors for me. But we even, when that ministry ended and we were alone, I was pulling on people because I, I never liked doing ministry alone. I never felt, um, comfortable being an independent church or an independent missionary. It was just, it was a free zone for me. I, I knew I needed partnership and I knew I needed covering, and I knew I needed people to, to do life with and to, and to help me make better decisions. I, I was. It was a weird few years when the organization I went with folded, even though it, it, it didn't exist. I knew I was supposed to stay. And so rice would come back several times a year and do big evangelism moments and train our evangelist and preach the gospel. And, but in 1994, Um, we were 10 years in to the Philippines. The church was thriving. We had planted a church in Bangladesh. Uh, we had planted, um, done a lot of work in China at the time we had planted along with, um, Ron Lewis and Taylor Stewart had moved to Guam. That was a miracle story. How that happened? It was, uh, it was a funny letter. My wife sent to her old sorority, uh, Roommate, which Taylor Stewart's wife and joking about them moving to Guam, and God took that and spoke to them and they packed it up and moved. And so we had planted that church together. We had a few other things going and so rice and Phil banana also were on their way to an open door, ministry moment in Singapore and Malaysia. And they stopped in Manila on their way and stayed in my home. And, um, we were talking about it and they were talking about these opportunities and. And they kept going, we're going to do this. We're going to do that. And I just said, I don't know who we is, there's you and you and me. And as we talked, we all felt it was, it was, I don't know how to say it. We, we felt. The hand of God, we felt the presence of God. And we all acknowledged that God was putting something together and it wasn't any longer going to be. Phil had his ministry and rice had his, and I had mine, but God put us together and we knew, we talked about it. We said, okay, here's what we're going to do together. Not just these opportunities in Singapore and Malaysia, but we're going to plant churches and do campus ministry all over the world. That's what we're going to do together. We're going to go plant churches that are reached the campus. We're going to plant campus ministries. That'll become churches. Those two, whichever comes first or second. It didn't matter to us, but we're going to do church planning and campus ministry. We're going to do it everywhere, not just Malaysia and Singapore. And so we were excited about it. We knew God came in and met with us and, and so they go on and do the ministry in Singapore and Malaysia. They fly back to the States and. Next thing. They know rice friend, Russ goes, Hey, if you guys are going to do this, I want to be a part. And then Brett fuller and old friend, I mean, way back Breton, Breton, Bryson feeling, I go way back, uh, longer than many of you were alive. And Brett goes, Hey, if you guys are going to do this, I want in. And so there were, we never dawned on us that anybody would want to join. It was going to be, Phil had planted a couple of churches. Uh, we had planted a few, maybe we had six or seven in the Philippines and then Bangladesh in Guam. And. Ron Lewis, uh, somehow he and rice got in contact and Ron goes, Hey, I want in, I, so a number of old friends of ours said campus ministry, church, planting, world missions is in my heart. If you're doing it, let's do it together. And filling out that night, looked at rice and said, um, rice, if we're going to do it, you need to lead. Phil was pastoring a church. I was too. I said, I'm not. I'm not letting go of what I'm doing. I feel called here to pastor this church, but we will be all in sending missionaries and supporting missionaries and planting and sending our best leaders and all that. And so that was well, we did. And, um, then we started planting. Um, we had, like I said, right at the beginning, within the first month, a bunch of old friends, you know, said, Hey, we want, we want to do this with you. Let's do it together. That was great. But then it started rolling in terms of planting. And then we really started, um, planting campus ministries, planting churches, sometimes planting both at the same time, sometimes one or the other, then they would emerge out of that. But, uh, it's been a pretty exciting ride. Um, again, just getting to be a part of something God's doing and. And that wasn't our idea. It wasn't a plan. It wasn't a strategy. It was just, it was a God moment. We were just talking that night at my house and, and, um, and then it just became obvious to all three of us. Um, I wish I had recorded that conversation cause I can't honestly remember who said what, but it all led to us going all for one, one for all, let's do this and, and let's see what happens. So. That's so awesome. I love that. I love that story. Just such a God moment. And you know, here we are 25 plus years later, and hundreds of churches and you know, the start of that, Dave, you mentioned about reaching the world on the campus. It's what happened was there was a, um, A girl who was a Singapore, Chinese Singaporean, who was a student at USC was in Phil's church. And, um, there was another person in Minnesota who was a Malaysian student and they had both come to Christ in the States, in those campuses and gone back. And the girl in Singapore, Singapore, and actually was back in LA and on field staff. And the guy in Malaysia had reached out to Phil. These are international students. And they Singaporean said, Hey, there's something happening in Singapore, my sister and her husband. That's Larry Matsa walkie and Elaine who planted our church in Singapore. Now they're in Melbourne, Australia planting another church, but they said, Hey, could you fill, would you go help? My sister and my brother-in-law would you go meet them? And they're trying to start a church. And then. The same thing was happening in Malaysia with, from this international student, Malaysian who studied at Minneapolis and Minnesota. And so both of those happen at once. And so it was international students who called us, uh, who call Phil and rice. Hey, would you guys come help us do this? And they happen to stop at my house on the way. And, um, you know, um, we're just a few hours from those cities. And, and so that's, that was really what we did together. First was. Trying to do something in Asia. And then of course it bounced all over the world, but it was, it was campus again, it was the, it was, it was students. It was, you know, there were people who came to America to study and then go home and, and want what they experienced as stars, church, and ministry and the States. They wanted it back. There all goes back to the campus. Doesn't it? Oh yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, pastor Steve, even in just watching you from a distance, you, and some of the people that you've mentioned, just those friends of yours, rice Brooks, uh, and, uh, Brett fuller, uh, and others knowing you've walked together now for, for decades, even pre every nation. to me, it's just, it's always inspiring and encouraging to see the kind of friendships that you all have and the way that you've, uh, By God's grace tried to really honor and love one another as, as co-laborers, as brothers in Christ, uh, in the context of expanding the kingdom and advancing the gospel all around the world. Uh, I think a lot of younger leaders are, are just hungry for that hungry for. Really deep friendships in the context of mission. And it seems that sometimes, uh, the church just broadly speaking can either get hyper-focused on one or the other of mission or relationship. And I think it's so powerful when you can combine the two of them. Hey, we're going to, we're going to have great friendships and we're going to do that in the context of mission, not just burn out on mission and burn all bridges, relationally in the context of mission or on the other hand, just be all about community, but forget what the community is supposed to be. Therefore, any, any words of vice that you would give to younger leaders of how to cultivate those kinds of friendships and perhaps even lessons that you've learned, trying to sustain those friendships over the decades. That's a, that's a good observation and good, good question. And really a great vital topic. You know, when we, when we talk about discipleship, we talk about in terms of relational discipleship and in every nation seminaries, first cohorts about to we're about to meet together and just a few weeks. And, um, our faculty retreat in a couple of weeks and then two months from now and our first cohort in Dubai, but one of the core courses is called relational discipleship. And, uh, it's very important for me that we frame discipleship in a relational context. It's not a, it's not a class, it's not a course. It's not a, a bunch of information. And, and some of those things might be present, but ultimately discipleship is relationship is joy. Bonifacio always says, um, it's starts and leads to relationship. And so I think it's sustaining any relationship. Um, And you're married many people listening to this or watching this are married. And the way that, the way that you sustain a marriage is by really, it's not that complicated. It's, it's, it's difficult, but not complicated. It's saying I was wrong. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. And then responding. I forgive you. So it's pretty much, I think any relationship is sustained by repentance and forgiveness. And doing a lot of both, um, repenting when you do selfish things and then forgiving people when they do. And I think that's how, um, that's how, as a parent, you keep a good relationship with your kids by admitting when you're wrong. Repenting. And then forgiving your kids when they're wrong. A lot of the time, most of the time. I mean, that's a lot of, um, when they're young, I mean, you know, realizing that as a parent, you're always going to put more into the relationship than you get out of it just, that's just the deal. Um, So of our video, people here have new babies are about to have babies. And just, you guys just know that, but you can't turn around. Now you're in, um, you're always going to give the parent always gives a hundred times more than the kid gives no matter what age. Um, and that's God, that's God. Our father has given a million times more than we ever put into it. So that's just the way it is. So I think any relationship is sustained by, I mean, there's practical things, but really it comes down to. We'll admit when I'm wrong and asked for forgiveness and will I forgive others when they're wrong? And if we do both of those, then relationships work, they don't work because everybody's compatible. I'm not sure anybody's compatible. I mean, I, I, I believe in depravity and the depth of sin. So I think sin makes us incompatible, but. Repentance forgiveness, confession, forgiveness, and a lot more forgiveness. And we ended up walking together for decades and I'm grateful for people who work with me and tolerate my idiosyncrasies and tolerate my, my gaps and my immaturities and my impatience and, and, um, my sin and, and, and we get past it. And I'm grateful. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's so helpful. Just a repentance and forgiveness. That will definitely take you a long way and in a marriage or a friendship or anything. So that's a that's wise advice on a practical note though. I'm curious. A lot of what we're talking about here. This was, this was pre. Smartphone even just at the, the simple logistical level. How, how did you communicate? Was it just months at a time you're not communicating, but then when you're together at a conference you're really trying to be fully present and just cherishing those moments or was there, or there are a lot of phone calls happening long distance over, or that type of system, or what did it look like at the practical level? Well, that's a good question. When I think about it, um, You know, in those days, in the early days of the Philippines, an overseas call would cost us$5 a minute. Hmm. Think about that$5 a minute. And so we didn't call our parents, my wife and I would take photographs and take the film too. I mean, I had a real camera, it was a real photography. We take the film to the codex store and then we would print and send. Once a month, a pack of photos of the grandkids to our parents too. That was the communication. Occasionally our parents would call us, but not very often because it was expensive. We couldn't call. We just didn't have the money. Um, email came along at some point way before there were affordable calls and we did a little of that, but I think sometimes the over-communication now is so shallow. And so surface that it's a, it's a real. It's a real inferior substitute for face-to-face relationships. And I think what would happen when you didn't see each other until a conference once a year, there was a depth of, of relationship and communication and, and talking, and that happened to maximize. Versus keeping everything on the surface, which is kind of the way things roll. Now, everything's a soundbite and everything fits in, you know, a hundred and whatever characters or however many it is now on Twitter. And, and, and so I think in many ways, relationships were richer and deeper. Now there are certainly advantages to. Technology today w what we're doing right now, we couldn't have done back in those days, but, but there were a lot of, uh, snail mail, but when we were together, we were together and nobody was multitasking and nobody was, was distracted by something else. And, and I think, uh, I think there were relationships took a lot more work and in flying to conferences, it was expensive. It costs time and it costs money, but. Those face-to-face relationships were huge because we always wanted to be a relational movement. It's like our friend, your friend, my friend, a Russ, Austin always says it was the mission brings us together, but the relationship keeps us together. And I think we do have a compelling mission. I mean, the. Plant Christ centered spirited powered, socially responsible churches and campus ministries in every nation. I mean, that's a, that's going to take more than my lifetime, um, more than your lifetime. And it's a compelling, worthy mission to throw a life into. But without the relationships we won't stick with it. We won't stick with one another. So it's the, the mission draws us together. The relationship keeps us together and, and. Relationships are work there, they're life giving, but they don't just happen. It does require time. And I'm not anti-technology certainly, but I do, I do think sometimes there's not a depth that, that maybe we had in the past. Yeah. Yeah. Those are some really helpful insights. I appreciate you sharing on that because yeah, it does seem certainly the case now that there's this saturation of communication and new social media networks and platforms all the time, but yet. The evidence shows that people are feeling more and more isolated and disconnected than ever before. And I wish it were the case that Christians were not as susceptible to that, but that's not, that's not the case. And so I think that that's helpful for us to think about, you know, this morning I was on, I was on a zoom call with, um, 50 about 50 every nation worship songwriters. And we had people from Philadelphia on the call this morning, and you guys do some amazing music. Um, Jeremy and the team. And gosh, I love what's coming out of Philadelphia. We had people from all over Africa, Asia, India, Australia. I mean, they were all different time zones, but we're all on this call together. And, um, it was many of these people have written songs together. Cross culturally. Um, when they're together at a conference or when we've had global writers workshops, but it was interesting when you're looking at your screen and you have everybody on there and somebody else pops on watching everybody's face and, and how they respond to this, this friend in Nigeria, this friend, and in London, or this friend in Cape town and the people in Malaysia and Singapore, like it's like they want to reach out and hug them. It was, it was the real relationships. And I'm glad we got to do what we did today. But you could tell there was a long, and then when that one finished, I had another call with I'll be in South Africa for our regional, our Southern Africa build conference with a lot of campus missionaries and church planters and pastors in, in a couple of weeks. And so we were reviewing the schedule of that. Some with. Dear friend of mine, Roger Pierce are our regional director in South Africa, and I had a few others on, on the call and, and we were talking about, this will be the first time our, our Southern Africa or South Africa churches are together in, I think it's 15 months the first time. And the, you can, you could just feel the excitement. Of the embodied fellowship and embodied worship and the, the, something about the two or three gathered together. And, and, and, um, you know, we we'd mentioned my good friend, pastor Brett fuller a moment ago. And, and, um, on the call was his son tell us fuller his fourth son. It was one of the pastors at grace covenant. He's going with me to minister and I'm a Bret. And I have done these kinds of things so many times, but, um, tell us is going with me along with, uh, Morgan Stevens and, uh, and Tim Johnson, the four of us are doing most of the teaching preaching along with the South Africans. And, and so we were talking about that and I thought this is, um, I, I I'm so grateful for the opportunity to go with Mo not just multiethnic, because we do that in every nation. It's just who we are, but the multi-generational preaching team going. And we were talking through with our South African team and talking through who's doing which session and who's, what's Telus doing, and what's Morgan doing, and what am I doing? What's Tim and shuffling that around. And it was, it was just a joy to work with. Different nations, different cultures, but also different generations. And I can't, I can't wait to get there and see what God's going to do. And, uh, we were praying together on that call, just believing for a move of his spirit. Um, when we gather it's, it'll be, um, several hundreds of vocational ministers and campus people and church planters from not just South Africa, but from Botswana and Namibia, Mozambique, that whole Southern Africa area. So, but again, I can't wait to actually. Be there face to face, you know, and, and, and be in that moment, in those worship moments, in prayer moments and meals, uh, eating together socially distancing and keeping our distance in and all that. But yet still the opportunity to be together is pretty exciting. Yeah, very much so well, it's so encouraging and exciting to hear. And, uh, it just, just, I love hearing how that is transferring into the younger generations of this relational discipleship that you talk about and that you and others have, have modeled and walked in for years. So I love that pastor, Steve. Well, I want to respect your time, so I want to, yeah. Bring us to a close here soon. But if I could, I'd like to ask you just one more question or, or two more, if you have time, uh, one of the things that you are known for and really highly regarded for is your consistent emphasis on just focusing on the non flashy fundamentals of discipleship. In fact, you often tell a story of watching your son play tennis and. And just him having a moment with his coach in which his coach tells him, basically stop trying to do the flashy moves, just stick with the same old strokes. And so you use that to talk about the same old, boring strokes of just day in, day out, making disciples and staying focused just on that. Uh, I'm curious to know though, In a world that seems to have such constant change and we've, we've seen rapid rapid change over the last couple of years and certainly over the last couple of decades. How do you as a leader think about and discern when it's time to stay focused on those. Uh, those fundamentals and the consistent thing that you've always done. And when it's time to, uh, to pivot, just to use an already overused word from this past year of the pandemic, uh, how do you think about those things as a leader? That's a good question. I, it was funny as yesterday. Uh, when I came home from the office, there's a tennis court in my neighborhood in Nashville, just outside of Nashville. And my seven year old granddaughter has started tennis lessons. And her coach is my oldest. Son's former teammate when he played tennis at Lipscomb university here in Nashville. And so watching her out there and it here's what's, here's, what's different in just a generation. The racket technology has changed. Um, you know, they can control the surface. They can make the tennis courts, whether they can make the ball bounce higher or lower, they make those decisions all the time. Uh, the ball at Wimbledon used to skid. They make it bounce now by how they cut the grass. And so there's a lot of things they control. And so from one tournament to another, I don't know how much the audience knows about tennis, but on clay courts, the ball bounces higher, which gives you more time to get to the ball. And you typically put more spin and hard courts. The ball bounces lower. And so there's. Points are shorter. All those things are different string technology, racket technology keeps changing. And so the ball keeps going faster and faster and the ball keeps getting more spin and more spin and all this. But what didn't change is what my granddaughter is learning the same thing her dad learned at that age. It is the same old boring strokes. Is different technology, better technology, better keeping fit and better. The, the drills that they do now compared to when my kids were seven it's it's mind boggling it's stuff. They, they start them earlier doing things. And, but when you break it all down, it's still same old boy, it's still up, down, up, up, down, up, up, down up it. A lot of the stuff has changed, but. The basic hasn't changed. And I think when it comes to what we're doing, um, it's always, it's always the perfect time to make disciples always. Hmm. It's always the perfect time for relational discipleship. Um, pandemic, no pandemic meet together. Can't meet together. Okay. Um, whether we are forced, if, if one-on-one, we can meet together. Great. If we can't even do that, then we can still, my, my wife does, I think she has four groups now that have been going on. She has one group of young Asian ladies that are the age of my kids. They're a lot of our closest friends, daughters. Um, so she does a zoom she's up early morning there at night, and it's been going on the whole pandemic. Uh, she has another one with Asian pastor's wives. Same thing early morning. It's and she has some here in America. She's got all these groups going. It, the pandemic didn't change. It, it just, some of those used to be face-to-face and now they can't, but it's always, we get back to decide what is discipleship following Jesus fishing for men doing that in fellowship with others. It's the three F's of Matthew chapter four, come and follow me. And so discipleship is a relationship. The relationship on three levels, the relationship with Christ. With God follow a relationship with the world, with people who don't know Jesus and how has our relationship with our neighbor on our right and our left and across the street. And I pray for my, my neighbors on my right, Jeff and Andrew am I right in my left, where I live. And, and, um, uh, and how is that it's relationship with Jesus, a relationship with people outside of church and its relationship with church with, with, with our church family, with our. The fellowship part. So it's, it's, it is relationship and whatever the circumstances forces to do, whatever, whatever we can do to build those relationships. So discipleship is helping someone follow Jesus, helping someone fisherman, helping someone walk in fellowship with others. It's it's, it's doing relationship on three levels. That's what it is. And I don't think that ever changes. I think the way we do it changes, I think the tools and technology change, I think the challenge has changed some we've we've been at a big challenge for that. Um, But thank God that we weren't banking everything on a, on a big event. I love Sunday worship or whichever day of the week you do it. I love it in the Muslim world. That's usually on Friday. That's their, that's their Holy day. But, um, I love it. Uh, I, I had a meeting this morning with a church planter here in Nashville. We were talking about. How to do a Sunday service to break through a certain growth barrier and a few minor tweaks that might help because we can meet here in Nashville. It's, you know, churches are meeting, but, um, I love that, but still the heart of it is still relational discipleship. And, and when we boil it down, it's as simple as helping someone follow Jesus. It it's pretty much what it is. So yeah. Well, that's great. Well, I love that, uh, that update with the tennis racket. They've got better tennis rackets, better drills, but the fundamentals remain. So what a powerful analogy to really what we're talking about here, right? Well, pastor Steve, as we wrap up, I know it's been a difficult year for so many, uh, across the world. Really? Uh, any word of encouragement or challenge that you'd like to share specifically to college students or college ministers that are listening to this today? Yeah. You know what, if you're, if your college, if you're campus missionary or doing any kind of vocational ministry, I want to, I want to encourage you to go deep and go back and revisit the call of God on your life. What did God call you to do? And I know this year has been a difficult task and a lot of hurdles we, we didn't count on, but the call hasn't changed. And so, um, I know there's been a lot of frustration of, I had dreamed of this and I had planned for this, and none of that happened, but the call hasn't changed. The strategy might change, but the call hasn't. So I want to encourage you in your calling. I want to encourage you. I commend you for stepping out in faith. Raising a partnership team and launching out sometimes on new campuses, sometimes the campus you grew up on, but, uh, I want to exhort you to hold them to that call fight the fight of faith with the call of God on your life. Um, um, no matter what, no matter what I mean, I mean, the battle is often over the call. Am I going to let the circumstances or the opportunities or the distractions or the difficulties push me from the call? And, uh, we all have many opportunities to divert from the call or to kind of wander into something else, but don't do it just hold on to that call on your life and, and, and college students. Um, this is what you're doing now. The choices you're about to make are the most important decisions you'll make the rest of your life. Most of the biggest decisions I ever made was from the, from the time I was 16 years old till I was 25. Uh, when I was 16, it was when I responded to the gospel, that was biggest decision I've ever made in my life to respond to the gospel. Then at 18, I decided to go to Mississippi state rather than Ole miss, where all my friends went and where all the party trail went and I made a decision to go somewhere else. I think it was God. Um, during that time I made a decision who I would walk with. So when rice and I became friends and others in college that have walked most of my life with. It's when I decided what I would do with my life. I was a business major and supposed to go work in my dad's family business. I didn't do it. I went in ministry then made a decision who I would marry. Um, got married at 23. She was 20. Um, listen, you're making big decisions right now. There's not a more important time than your college days to go deep in God and to go deep in his word. It's not a time to, to, to just throw away it's going deep and seeking deep roots and building a Christian spiritual community, uh, because you're about to make some massive decisions that will affect the rest of your life. I don't say that in a bad way. So that's an exciting time, but more important than any other time to go deep so that you make those decisions. They're God's decisions and it's, it's not making decisions as much as it's discerning God's will and, um, what, what to do with your life and who to do it with, and marriage decisions start coming up about this this time. And so, anyway, I think this is a great time of life. And again, back to the campus missionaries, I'm so glad for what you guys do, men and women, because it is helping younger people go sink some spiritual roots so that these massive decisions they're about to make are made. Uh, while seeking God and made for, for his purpose and his glory and whatever career path you take, that you take it with a sense of calling God's. I talked to a guy, I had coffee with a guy yesterday who who's an engineer. And we talked about when he was involved in our campus ministry here and graduate what he's doing now and what he's doing with his life. And he's a man of God in a pillar in the church and pursuing a calling, uh, and that, and, and so whatever your calling is, Uh, this is the time to make sure we're, we're, we're getting on track. So that's, I know it's been tough, but the calling hasn't changed and the, and the root system that we have to build is still vitally important. Pastor Steve that's so good. Such a great word of encouragement and perspective. So thank you so much for sharing that and thank you for your time today. It's really just been a delight to talk with you and really just appreciate all that you've shared. So thanks so much, Dave. I appreciate it. And Hey, thanks for everything you do for the campus, not just in your city. I know you carry a lot of responsibility for our campus ministry all across North America, and I'm just. I'm grateful to God for your leadership and everything you're doing and hope to get to Philadelphia someday. I love what God's doing. And you guys and your church up there. So they had a pastor Gabe and all the team