Michael Kruger on Answering the Objections to Christianity Common on College Campuses

Thirty years ago, while an undergraduate student at The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, Michael Kruger’s faith was shaken intellectually by some of the views he encountered in the classroom with well-known skeptic and professor Bart Ehrman. However, he didn’t give up on the faith. Instead, he did some deeper study outside the classroom and arrived at a re-affirmed belief in the Gospel and confidence in the integrity of the New Testament scriptures. 

Dr. Michael Kruger is the now the President of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina where he also serves as a professor of New Testament and Early Christianity. In this podcast, we talk about his personal faith journey as an undergraduate student and his new book, Surviving Religion 101: Letters to a Christian Student on Keeping the Faith in College. This well written and highly readable book is aimed at helping college students navigate the intellectual objections to the Christian faith common on college campuses.

>>Additional links on the episode webpage here

Transcript

David: 0:37

Well, I am here with Dr. Michael Kruger. President and professor at reformed theological seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, Dr. Kruger. It's good to have you on the podcast today.

Michael Kruger: 0:49

Thank you. Great to be with you.

David: 0:52

Well to give a little bit more of an introduction to you, sir. Uh, you, uh, you're a prolific writer among your books are Christianity, the crossroads, how the second century shaped the future of the church and cannon revisited, establishing origins and authority of the new Testament books. And, uh, most recently what we're actually going to be talking about here. Is your first popular level book, surviving religion, one Oh one letters to a Christian college student on keeping the faith in college. So excited to talk with you and excited to specifically talk about this book. Uh, anything else that you'd like to say about yourself as a word of introduction to the audience?

Michael Kruger: 1:34

Covered it there. I mean, um, I'm sitting right now at the campus of RTS in Charlotte and, um, I am excited about this new book. I, I think it's, um, hopefully going to be helpful for college students and really any skeptic and as I'm sure we'll discuss it's, it's going to be, you know, a very personal book for me too, in terms of why I wrote it and what it says about my own background.

David: 1:57

Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you could even just jumping in there, uh, tell us a little bit about the book and why you wrote it.

Michael Kruger: 2:03

Yeah. So, you know, for years this was one of those books that's been floating around the back of my mind, and I knew I was needing to write it and never really got around to doing it. And then it just sort of got delayed, delayed, and delayed, but it really goes back to my own experience as an undergraduate at the university of North Carolina in chapel Hill. Where like many other, uh, Christian college students today, I entered my college experience with a commitment to Christ and a profession of faith and fairly convinced of the truth of Christianity and just eager to serve Christ in college. What I wasn't ready for was the barrage of intellectual challenges and attacks that were coming my way. Um, and even though I was prepared in some ways to be a Christian on the college campus, I wasn't really prepared intellectually. And then it sort of all, I had it hit a head when I had an introduction to the new Testament class with Bart, Erman, who. Many of your listeners will know is a fairly well-known and fairly prolific critic of Christianity. Well, at the time he was a brand new professor and it wasn't wasn't, uh, you know, obviously who he is today, but, um, he was very, uh, determined to critique everything. I believed about the new Testament and said he was once an evangelical like me and he no longer believes these things. So it rattled my faith pretty good. And it sent me down a intellectual journey where I had to figure out what I believed. And thankfully God put me through that and got me through that. And. And now of course, sort of an ironic turn. I'm a biblical scholar too, studying some of those same areas. But then, you know, 30 years later, my daughter is headed off to college and, uh, lo and behold, she's going to UNC chapel Hill, right where I was. And so I knew this book needed to be written to help prepare her and prepare any other college student. And so it's designed to help as the title suggests, how do you deal with those sorts of intellectual attacks and what, what is our answer to these questions? And so I just walked through. Issue by issue, uh, uh, in that book, uh, for, for students.

David: 3:51

yeah. Dr. Krueger. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading it so far. In fact, I've got it here on the table in front of me and I'm excited. I think this book is going to help a lot of students. I'm excited to help get it in the hands. Of some of the students that I have the opportunity to work with as a college minister. Uh, if you could though take us back a little bit, even to your own journey as a college student, you shared about your experience having Dr. Ermin as a professor there at UNC. And, you know, as you said, he's well known as being a critic of many of the beliefs that. Historic Christianity would consider to be normal. Uh, how did you get through that? You mentioned your faith being shattered. What, uh, what did that process look like for you as a college student?

Michael Kruger: 4:34

Yeah. So it looked like a number of things. I think at first I didn't really know what to do. Um, I was looking around me and I saw a variety of different responses from my fellow Christian students. And they were all over the map. I mean, some just pretend to, not that it wasn't happening, they just wouldn't engage. They just sorta cut off their faith. From intellectual engagement entirely. And so that was one potential solution, I suppose. And some people took that route. They just pretended that, well, what I believe just isn't going to be touched by this and they sort of just separated their, their, their religious world from, from historical things. Then there was another type of response where people are looking to sort of compromise. Well, maybe I could believe what Orman said and still be a Christian and sort of find this hybrid. Sort of creature. And so there was that, and then there was a third sort of reaction out there where some were just chucking it entirely. They, they, you know, few months in Herman's class, you're like, yeah. Now I really realized, I don't believe this at all anyway. And always knew maybe it was false. And this is sort of giving me the intellectual justification to sort of go a different route. So they would just sort of abandoned the faith. And then there I was. And so my conclusion at that point was surely someone has answered these questions. But, you know, it's not, it's not really statistically likely that Erwin is raising questions. No one's ever thought about in the evangelical world. Um, and so I was determined to figure out who's discussed these and, and who's and what answers they've given. And so I just dove into the sources and into the writings as best I could. And I was encouraged to discover, and I say this in the book that. These things are old news in the sense that Christians have been, been dealing with these things and talking about these things and responding to these things for generations. Um, and I think giving really good answers to them. Um, now of course in the class, the students were never told that, right? They're never told that there's another side of the story, but there was another side of the story and I was grateful to learn it. And then once I started learning it, I was like, wow, I'm really fascinated with this whole new world I've discovered. And then that just took me down a whole new path. I've never left.

David: 6:24

I'm just curious. Were there any particular books or other resources that were helpful to you at that point as a college student?

Michael Kruger: 6:32

Well, at that point, what I was mainly looking for were, uh, you know, discussions of textual criticism and cannon, which are the two big issues that, that, uh, Erman brings up. And ironically, one of the big sources for me was, was urban zone mentor, Bruce Metzger. Who's written on both those issues, quite extensively. So I started reading as much as Metzger as I could get my hands on. And you gotta remember this was, this was before the internet and before, before the ease of finding things on Google. So I had to go in and really sort of, you know, do the sort of, uh, physical research to find this stuff. But I spent a lot of time reading Metzger's work and then realize, Oh, wow, this is interesting because his, his conclusions aren't the same as. His, his students, um, even though, uh, urban study with, with Bruce Metzger at Princeton, they had very different worldviews, so to speak when it came to this. So that was really a part of the, the beginning of a journey for me to learn what he had written. I would say FF Bruce was another source. Of course, at the time he was a British scholar who has written extensively on texts and Canada issues as well. And then it just kind of flowed from there.

David: 7:38

yeah, that's, that's great. Yeah. I remember my own experience as a college student, and I'm a little bit younger than you, but, uh, I do remember that having some of these questions and just not even really sure where to turn at that point, the internet was available, but it was. It was crawling. It was very slow to try to find anything. And, uh, so yeah, I'm just

Michael Kruger: 7:58

Yeah. And one of the things I learned too, was that, you know, I would go to campus staff workers in the, in the Christian group. I was a part of, and. No, they were great people who love Jesus and were well-intentioned, but I realized quickly that they did not know what to say. Um, and they did not have any real clarity on what to, how to help me. Um, in that way it was a little discouraging too, because I'm thinking, well, wait a second, your, your, your, your function is a college staff worker on a college campus. And wouldn't that wouldn't these things be at least somewhat in your purview. And then I realized. You know, looking back, they, they seem so much older than me, but now I look back and they're like, you know, 25 years old and, um, you know, having really themselves been to seminary or study many of these things. And so I realized that there was a systemic issue here too, which is, do we have the resources available to these students? Um, now admittedly things are different now with. With the way resources are available. But back then, all I had was a few people I could ask in, in, in, in, in, uh, you know, unfortunately I was, I was, I was faced with the fact that not many people could, could deal with some of the questions I was trying to, to answer.

David: 9:04

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Well, to this question that you investigated as a student, and one of the many things that you address in this book, the question of the historical reliability of the new Testament. And of the gospels, especially, uh, what confidence could one have that, uh, that these are historically reliable documents.

Michael Kruger: 9:26

Yeah, as you might expect, this is one of the chapters in my book. And, uh, I covered this because it's obviously one of the most critical questions for people. Um, and you know, the, the, the new Testament is a big book, uh, or collection of books, I should say. And so usually what I've done in, in, in, in, I did this in my, in my book, surviving religion, one, one Oh one is narrowed it down to just the gospels for a moment. And this, I think is a strategic move for, for conversations with people. People say, well, can I trust the new Testament? Well, yes, but I mean, that's a, there's 27 books we've got to get through there. Let's just talk about the gospels for a moment. Can we trust them? And I think this is a good place to start. Because obviously these tell the story of Jesus and they're the basis for everything we believe that comes from that. So if they're not reliable, then we're done and if they are reliable, then at least we can go further. Um, and I talk in my book about reasons to trust these, these books. I'll just mention, um, you know, one, one particular reason is I think these books give evidence for having been written by people who were first century Palestinian Jews. Um, in other words, they give evidence for being, having been written by people who at least fit the profile of the names attached to them. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Um, and I think there's even better evidence to think that they're actually written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but at least they give evidence of being people who could have been those folks. And one of the ways that we know that is because of their familiarity with, with, with, with Judaism and with first century Palestine, but geographically, uh, and, uh, even geologically, um, and even, uh, culturally. And much great work has been done to show that you can't just sort of pretend to know what the world was like back then. If you lived outside of Palestine and we're writing about events that took place in Palestine, um, you, you, it's not like you could Google something if you're writing in some other place and get it right, because you had no way of knowing unless you were there boots on the ground and these authors. Do a number of things to show they're intimately familiar with those sorts of details. And, you know, one of the things that I mentioned is their use of names. The type of names we see in the gospels are exactly what we know about the names in, uh, in first century Israel. And so just little tidbits of information like that are confirming that, that, uh, these gospels are not just fabrications, uh, from some late, uh, pseudonymous author. And I think that's an important point to make.

David: 11:38

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That point about the names. That's something I only just heard recently, and then I encountered it again in your writing, but it really is a fascinating, fascinating insight. Other than this topic. What are some of the other topics that you address in the book?

Michael Kruger: 11:52

Oh, wow. So all over the place. Right. So I have 15 chapters. Uh, I probably should mention that the way I've set up the chapters is I've framed them in forms of letters to my daughter. Uh, you know, she is, as I said, off to college herself and currently a sophomore at UNC chapel Hill. And so my daughter's name is Emma. And so I framed the letters as, as like a father writing to his daughter. Here's what you're going to face in college. Now, obviously she's a real person and I'm a real person. And in that sense, they're real letters, but they're not real letters in the sense that no one else could benefit from them. Obviously I focus in the letters on the topic and so anybody can obviously read it. And glean help from the topics. So I cover all kinds of things from the issues of modern science and miracles to obviously, as I, as we just discussed the reliability of the gospels, the problem of evil, the issue of sexuality and morality, the exclusive claims of the Christian religion. And then I talk about a number of sort of worldview related issues that are key. And I'll mention one here, which I think is really critical. And I have one of my early chapters devoted to this, which is this question of. Of w what do I do with the fact that I'm basically in the vast, vast minority about everything I believe in R and R raises question, the average college student won't take them long to realize, or her laundry realize that basically everybody around her, in the classroom, the professors, the faculty, generally speaking for the most part, think she's got a worldview that makes no sense. And she's going to be vastly in the majority and the minority. And one of the questions that creates for college students is what is the statistical chance that everybody else is wrong. And I'm right. You know, these are the smartest people on the planet. They have, you know, Ivy league PhDs. Am I really do you know, here I am a 19 year old kid, do I really think, yeah, I've got it. I've got it right there. They're all wrong. And that I'll tell you, that's a big problem for people to deal with. And I talk about the way worldviews work and how people aren't neutral and how you don't form your conclusions just on facts. And I think those are important points to raise.

David: 13:46

Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoyed some of your insights there. And they certainly resonated with me both from my personal experience. And then also just from working with students for almost two decades now as a college minister, uh, yeah, I really appreciate even the way that you've written this book, as you said, it's, it's written as a series of letters to your daughter. And I, I can't say that I I've come across another book like that. Uh, I think it adds a level of interest to the book. it doesn't feel like it as dry of just laying out all these different

Michael Kruger: 14:17

Yeah, it seems more relational. It seems more personal and relational. And I think that's an important aspect to, for people to realize is that there there's a sense in which. You know, the Christian faith is more than just facts and data. The other thing that the listener might want to know is that, you know, I tell stories in there, uh, and illustrations in there about her and me and are in her life. And they're all there. Those are all real stories, you know, I didn't, I didn't just make those up. Those are genuinely things that happened and took place and hopefully illustrate some of the points that I was making.

David: 14:46

yeah, certainly does. And I know at the end of each chapter, the way you frame it is you open up with a little bit of a personal note in each chapter, and then you explain some of The details around the topic that you're, uh, you're discussing, laying out the case and all that. And then you end with the, a couple of paragraphs. Typically that again, feels a little bit more personal at the end. Uh, some of that I have to say, even as a father, myself of two children, I've got a nine-year-old son and a seven year old daughter. I have to say that some of those things were just very touching to read that I could tell there was a warmth, your relationship. And even as a father, Uh, I, I kind of related to you in that way of just desiring for my children to know the Lord and knowing that there's a struggle, knowing that there are outside influences that want to pull them away from serving the Lord and believing the gospel. Uh, so I really tremendously enjoyed that. I'm curious to know. What your conversations around these topics with your daughter were like, were, were they actual letters that you sent prior to publishing the book or, uh, is this the extent of what your conversation has been over? Uh, some prior period of time, but how does your actual relationship with your daughter relate to producing this book?

Michael Kruger: 16:00

Yeah. So obviously the letters weren't actually sent, um, and maybe that's intuitive. I don't know, but no, I wrote the letters for the book and so I sent them to her and that sense of course, because she has a copy. Um, but, um, but they weren't sending the past and then just correlated together, but they do reflect actual conversations. Um, and what I mean by that is these are the kinds of issues that I've been, um, Moline over with her together for years and not just her, my other two children too. Although, you know, when they're in their younger years, they weren't always tracking at the same level. So, so these reflect the kind of conversations we had had when she was at home and then still had, even as she went to college, remember she'd been in college a couple of years before the book came out. And what I've really enjoyed is it, even after she arrived in college, she would call me up usually on a sort of zoom call or a FaceTime chat kind of thing, where she would talk with me about the issues she was dealing with. And her friends would kind of all be crowded around the background. Um, and they would be throwing their questions into, and we had these fun conversations usually really late at night when I was trying to go to bed and they were calling me. But, um, but it was, it was really special. And so. You know, I can remember as I was doing with those phone calls, I would make comments like, um, I'm writing, I'm writing a chapter right now for your book on this, you know, and obviously the book wasn't done at, at th at that point, but I was, we were, we were dealing with those very same issues.

David: 17:17

Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, I'm sure for her, and you didn't mention in the book, whether or not she had actually had Dr. Irwin as a professor or not, but, uh, it

Michael Kruger: 17:27

well, we don't know yet. Right. She hasn't had them yet, but she's got two more years. So.

David: 17:32

Yeah. Well, that has to be interesting for her as well, as interesting for you in light of what you shared about your previous experience, her going to the same college as you, and just in light of the work that you do, uh, really being on the different, a different side of a lot of big issues from Dr. Erhman, I'm curious, have you and Dr. Erwin haven't had any kind of a professional dialogue around these topics in the years, since you were a student there at UNC.

Michael Kruger: 17:59

No, we, we, we run in broadly similar circles, obviously, but there's no, there's no email exchanges or, or personal dialogues there. We usually interact in print. Which really just means I review his books. And then, um, you know, I don't really know that he really responds to book reviews very often if ever. So we don't, we don't interact in print in a, in a back and forth kind of way. So yeah, we're dealing with, with, with one another, mainly on the, on the level of ideas. And so, um, but you're not, but you never know. Maybe, maybe my daughter will take a class and get to know him personally. I mean, from, from all I know of him personally, um, and of course I interacted with them a little bit in my chapel Hill days, but. From all I know of him personally, he's, he's really an enjoyable, friendly, fun guy to get to know. And you know, all, all that I've heard is that he's, he's really, uh, an enjoyable conversation partner. And I probably would enjoy having a beer with him sometime, but, uh, you know, we haven't had an opportunity to do that until now.

David: 18:55

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, Dr. Krueger, I know you cover a lot of different issues in this book. Is there a chapter that you would say this is your favorite chapter? Uh, or is it, is it like your children? They're all different and you love them all in different ways.

Michael Kruger: 19:12

Yeah, that's a, that's an interesting question. I don't know if I've thought about which chapter is my favorite. I don't know that I have an answer to that. I think. They're they're, they're all heading such important issues that I think they all, they all serve such critical purposes. I hope they're all helpful. I think one chapter that I wouldn't say is my favorite, but I think an important chapter is the, is the, is the last main chapter on doubt. Um, and, uh, there's a, is an epilogue on, on what do you do at Christianity? Isn't working for you, but there's the last main chapters on doubt. And I, that was a really important chapter to write because I think it. There's a stigma about doubt in the Christian world. That if you doubt something or wonder why you questioned something, or you have in the back of your mind, what if I'm wrong? That somehow you're, you're a bad Christian and you just ought to just be quiet about it and just, you know, move on with things. And I, and I want to relieve that and people's minds and saying, look, you know, this is part of, of working your way through issues. There's nothing here that is scandalous in. It's best to do with doubt. Openly and with friends and with the church and dialogue, rather than sort of hole up in secret and pretend it doesn't exist. Um, you know, it doesn't mean doubt can't be problematic. It can be doubt if left unchecked doubt can, can be the thread that you keep pulling until the whole sweaters unraveled. But, but, but, but, but everybody deals with doubt at some point. So the question is, is not whether it's going to be there, but when it comes in, how you face it,

David: 20:38

Yeah, that's great advice. I know one thing I've seen often over the years of students that I've worked with in ministry that have gotten excited about taking an intro to the new Testament class or some other class in the religion department and this for them, they think this is great. I'm going to get to go deeper in my faith. And I'm going to knock out some college credits with an elective and then. It doesn't take too long before they're in this class and their head is spinning with doubt, and they've got all these questions that are, are, are being posed to them and, and it begins to erode their faith. Uh, it, again, as you say, in the book, Many times it's just one side of arguments that are being presented, but it's hard to know. I think for 18, 19 year old student that's in these classrooms, they're not really aware of what they're not being told and they don't know what to do with that. They don't know where to go. And they're feeling all this pressure of just the momentum of the academic work. I just got to get this assignment done and, and the. The doubts that they had last Tuesday or two weeks ago, those aren't really getting addressed. They just kind of get buried underneath the momentum of, I got to get this classwork done, and then they come out of a class really with some lingering. Issues. Uh, what advice would you give to a student that maybe even right now, as they're listening to this, there's, they're in the middle of a class like that? Uh, what, what would they be able to do? Because it's not probably not reasonable to expect them to become an expert on all these issues, right. In the middle of a bunch of other classes and all of that, that they've got a lot on their plate, but what could they do to at least. Grab ahold of those doubts. So those doubts don't go unchecked and then just kind of erode their faith from the inside out.

Michael Kruger: 22:24

Yeah. So several thoughts that I think I would say to a current student in a class like that, um, and you know, one thought would be, look, everybody's been there and you're not alone. And I I've been there and we all sympathize with this sort of confusion that creates to be in a class like that, where you're getting bombarded each week with new ideas you can't have answers for. And on that score, I would say, look, just remember that. Not having an answer, it doesn't mean what you believe is untrue. This is I've been stunned over the years that people think if they can't answer questions that somehow their beliefs are now suspect. I, I don't know where we got that idea. I don't know why any 19 year old students should think he could be able to go toe to toe with the professor. You just got to give yourself a little bit of a break here and realize, okay, so I don't have the answers. I just got to own that. I don't have them. I can't answer that question, but just not having an answer doesn't mean what you believe is fallible, flawed or untrue. There's lots of situations we could find ourselves in where we don't have an answer to something. I give an example in the book where, you know, if you ran, if you ran into someone on the street, that was a moon landing denier. And by the way, these people are still around where they don't think we really landed on the moon. In 1969, it was all fabricated by the government and everything. If you've ever talked to those people, then we've got some pretty good arguments. And by pretty good, I don't mean true, but I mean, if you didn't have an answer, you could find yourself stumped and think, wow, maybe they're right. But, but if you didn't have an answer, you wouldn't think, well, therefore my belief that we landed on the moon is wrong. You just admit that you've never heard that before and don't have any answers. So first thing is just realize not having an answer doesn't mean what you believe is untrue. The second suggestion or advice I would give is don't confuse not having an answer with there not being an answer. This is the other thing that is a mistake that's made the students will assume that if they don't have the answer to, there must not be one, but again, that's flawed thinking too. Why would you assume that there's lots of good scholars out there both historically and in the present day that have tackled these things. And so you just have to go do the hard work and find the answers. Um, but just because you don't have an answer, doesn't mean it hasn't been answered and I can promise you that there's always another side of the story always. And what looks like a great argument on the surface. If cross-examined. Uh, you'll, you'll find quickly falls apart. So if students just hold onto those two truths, I think there'll be in good shape.

David: 24:28

Yeah. Yeah. That's great advice. Well, Dr. Krueger earlier in this conversation, you mentioned even the equipping for college ministers and how that can be problematic at times. Um, Any thoughts on that? I mean, would you, do you think that, I mean, not to make some broad brush statement of every, every minister should do X, but what might current college ministry leaders do to become better equipped to help their students with some of these issues?

Michael Kruger: 24:58

Yeah, that's a great question. I think that's a really important question. Um, I think we would begin by saying, as you noted that, that no one's making the case. Everybody's got, got to go get a PhD or something in order to work on college campuses. That's crazy. And I don't even think everybody, of course even has to go to seminary to be effective. On a college campus, but if you're going to do ministry on a college campus, you do have to be equipped at some level to do it. And so you have to have a plan. And so my suggestion for people in college ministry, if they haven't been to seminary, and even if they have been to seminary, what is your education plan for the upcoming year for yourself? What is your study plan? If, if, if a college minister or college leader of a Christian organization says I spend all my time. With students and I don't ever do any personal study. I would say you need to carve out time for personal study. I know it sounds like you're neglecting some poor student when you do it, but actually you're helping them in the longterm. There needs to be a place for intellectual engagement and intellectual development in every person's life. Who's on a college campus. And I would argue, even in Christian ministry off the college campus, there needs to be that intellectual engagement. So if I ask a person, what's your study plan for the year and they look at me, look at the blank. Look, I'm like, well, Man, you got to give that some thought and whoever's leading your organization. He's thinking about some thoughts. So I wouldn't say there needs to be some structure, some, some planning, some intentionality to that. So people have a system now there's ways now that are great for this. I mean, you can get all kinds of online education, uh, pretty reasonably and with really high quality. I mean, you know, it would be obvious to mention this, but I felt like I should, because RTS, the school I teach in has fantastic resources that you can get online. Um, and Lauren and you wouldn't have to leave your college campus. Um, and so th the stuff like that, it's out there and, uh, I would be encouraging people to take advantage of it. And then it was closely related to that is that I think the, these people leading a college ministry should be building their personal libraries. And what I mean by that is you should be reading books, collecting some books, and then using those books and they should just grow slowly, your own little private library. I think that's an important part of your, of your mission. So I hope that I hope that's on people's radar screens.

David: 27:00

Yeah, that's, that's really helpful. Yeah. Advice. Yeah. And it certainly has been great to see the expanded opportunities available through the internet. Uh, Dr. Krueger, I actually am a graduate of RTS, primarily taking classes online though. I did do a

Michael Kruger: 27:16

yes. I remember reading that. That's great. Yes. So you, you can testify that, that, uh, that, yeah.

David: 27:22

Yeah, certainly helpful. Especially if you're in a place where there aren't a lot of in-person opportunities for that kind of education, mean some of these college towns, for example, you know, there's a huge university there and there's just not a whole lot else. And, and those spaces, especially if you're kind of in the middle of nowhere, it's difficult to, to get to, to a university or, or rather a seminary campus, uh, for some of these kinds of things. So that's a great point. Um, Yeah. Any particular classes or resources, I guess, just to drill down on that even more, because even a person that would say, Hey, I want to develop intellectually in the faith. It can just. Even feel a little bit overwhelming of there's so many cultural issues, there's so many even biblical issues. Where do you even begin? And of course, that can be helpful at the seminary level where there's some classes that are in place and curriculum and the syllabus for a particular class that you would have a reading list. Uh, yeah. What are your thoughts on the approach to that as it. Is it more reactive of, Hey, I've got students that are got these questions that I don't know how to answer. Let me focus on that. Or would you recommend some kind of a more systematic approach to this personal development plan?

Michael Kruger: 28:39

Yeah, I think there's two channels or two trajectories for the personal development plan that both have to be there. One is a slow, ongoing picking away at the overall curriculum you want to learn. So, you know, you need to eventually take a class on church history. You need eventually take a class on apologetics, need to eventually take a class. On systematic theology and, and so on. And you just need to have, uh, a plan where you're going to get to those and, and just start working through them slowly. It'll take time. You know, I, I think, you know, people want to make sure they're not overly ambitious. You know, part of the reason people don't finish those things because they try to do too much and they realize they can't do it and they quit it all. It's kinda like dieting, you know, if you go from your normal diet and then you say I'm gonna, you know, I'm only gonna eat a thousand calories a day. I'm like, well, okay, You know, that's, that's, that's, that's gung ho and ambitious, but you're not gonna make it on that. You know, you gotta pick something a little more modest, same thing here. So, so trajectory one is, you know, a slow, steady diet of good content, just working with the curriculum. And the other trajectory is what I call sort of your current topic trajectory, which is probably driven by what's going on that year or going on in the minds of your students are going on in your culture. Um, and so yeah, you need to be reading all what the latest stuff is, whatever it happens to be coming down the line, and this can be dictated by a conversation. You had a situation you were observing, or just like I said, what people are talking about broadly in our world. So, you know, you want to be up to speed on some of this. Okay. So you've got both those, both those trajectories that have to be, be happening. Um, and so, uh, you know, you're going to have to have a place. For each of those in your life, um, where you have a steady diet of both those things. And again, you know, don't, don't misunderstand, I'm where I'm suggesting someone's eight hours a day doing this. You know, these are just little snippets, but they'll keep you, uh, above water. So to speak.

David: 30:28

Yeah, that's good advice. Well, Dr. Krueger, I am excited for this book. I think it's going to help a lot of people as we wrap up today, any final word of encouragement or challenge that you'd like to share with college students or college ministers that are listening today?

Michael Kruger: 30:45

Yeah. I mean a little bit. Yeah. Uh, as I was saying before, you know, a word to college students is just encourage them. Look, you, you're not alone. You're not experiencing anything unusual. We w others have been where you are. Um, and you know, my, my big advice for people in college, struggling and with what they believe is what I call kind of comically my horror movie advice. And let me just explain what I mean by this. I love horror movies. It's sort of this funny thing with me. I love scary movies. And, uh, one of my, one of my little jokes is, is that, you know, when you watch a scary movie, that the protagonist always makes the same mistake as if they go off alone in the dark, right. It's laughable, but then always happens in a war movie. And you're like, why are you doing this? If you don't stay in the group, stay in the light. Well, that's good horror movie advice. And it's also a good spiritual advice. If you're going to make it through college, same thing applies. Stay in the group, stay in the light. Don't go off in the dark by yourself. So if you're doubting, you're struggling, you're, you're wondering this is not something, uh, that you need to do alone. It's not the time to be, to be a solo. So being in a good fellowship with others, you can point you back to truth. It's going to be really, really critical. That piece alone will probably keep many people in the camp of having survived. Um, and you know, there's more to be done. Certainly I hope people will be blessed by my book. I'll also mention my website, which might be useful because I digest a lot of stuff like this on my website, it's called cannon fodder, which is course upon, but it's just Michael J kruger.com. And I deal with Canon tax reliability, the Bible objections to the faith bunch of stuff on there, videos and interviews. So, uh, you know, if someone's looking for some quick little tidbit, um, they might find that useful.

David: 32:25

Yeah, well, that's great advice and we'll be sure to link to your website in the podcast. Show notes, Dr. Krueger. Again, I just want to say thank you so much for your time today. Your words of wisdom and encouragement. And thanks again for writing this book, I'm really excited for the impact that's going to make in the lives of college students. And I think it's going to be a very helpful resource for college ministry leaders. So again, thank you so much.

Michael Kruger: 32:50

Thanks. Good to be with you.