Gabe Bouch on Engaging Thinking People with the Gospel

As a college campus minister in the late 90s and early 2000s, Gabe Bouch saw significant fruit in ministry and developed many young leaders.  But after a decade of fruitful ministry on campus, he decided to pursue a Ph.D. in Mathematics.

Upon completion of his degree from Rutgers University in New Jersey, his path took an unexpected detour. Instead of pursuing a career in academia as he had planned, he became the senior pastor of Freedom Church of Philadelphia. 

As an analytical person himself, Gabe is passionate about engaging thinking people with the Gospel. In this episode he shares the story of his personal conversion to Christ as a teenager and his faith journey throughout college. He also gets practical about how to ask good questions and how to effectively engage in rational dialogue relevant to core Christian beliefs.

Transcript

David: 0:36

Well, I am here with Dr. Gabriel Bouche, Gabe. Good to have you on the podcast today.

Gabe Bouch: 0:43

so glad to be with you, Dave.

David: 0:45

Oh, man, this is so fun. I gave you and I have known each other for many years. And just to give a, an introduction to you or for you, I should say, uh, you, uh, you're an intelligent guy. You actually have a PhD from Rutgers university in mathematics. You are currently the senior pastor of freedom, church of Philadelphia, a multi-site church in Southern New Jersey. And pencil and a Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and you are a, just a, a man who loves Jesus, loves his family and has a heart for engaging thinking people with the gospel. And so we're going to have a great conversation about apologetics. So again, Gabe, welcome to the podcast.

Gabe Bouch: 1:29

so glad to be with you, Dave. It's fun to think back of so many memories over so many years, as you alluded to, I could actually still remember. Posters on your wall, in your room back in college days. So some memories just stick with us.

David: 1:42

Yeah, it's funny. Some of those things that we remember and those things that we forget, but yeah. Uh, and for context there gave you, or my college minister when I was a student at Florida state university, I think you were a relatively young, relatively new college minister. Maybe been at it for a couple of years at that point, but yeah, you were in fact, really instrumental in my life as I was not exactly. Uh, on a strong trajectory of serving the Lord at that time, I was really just honestly, kind of struggling and full of doubt, full of just confusion and just a whole lot going on in my soul. That was not, not so good. And you know, the Lord really used you to. Engage me to, to, you know, to speak to me, to listen to me. And I often think about the patients that it must've taken for you to even just persist in some of those conversations. And so, man, just to even start off this conversation, thank you for the role that you've played in my life, as well as I know many, many others just in pointing, you know, me to Jesus

Gabe Bouch: 2:47

Dave. I know you've been on both sides of it yourself and you know, it's just such a blessing. None of us are perfect. None of us have all the answers or know everything we're doing, but God is just really gracious. And when we show up, it's amazing how he shows up.

David: 3:02

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, Gabe, yeah, if you would, I think just, again, for context, we're going to talk about apologetics. You've actually launched recently a YouTube channel called the big question and which I think you're doing such a masterful job of engaging some of the big questions that people have about God, about the Bible, about, um, just all kinds of things that, that may. Trip people up on a journey to faith or growing into a deeper walk with God. And so we'll talk a little bit more about that, but, uh, if you could share a little bit of your earlier experiences, high school and college and how it is that you personally became convinced that the gospel was, was true and became a follower of Jesus.

Gabe Bouch: 3:46

Yeah, so I grew up going to church with my parents and it was a traditional denominational church. And I'm so thankful for my parents who. Brought me to church who wanted me to know something about God who gave me a great home to grow up in. I'm so grateful for their lives. Um, I didn't connect a lot with church growing up. Uh, you know, when I was really young, you just do what you're told to do. And as I got into my high school years, I think like many of us experience, you know, I really started to think about, is this true? And as I asked that question, I had a lot of doubts. I was far from convinced that the Christian faith really was true. Um, I can remember becoming less and less interested in church, so I would attend less frequently in my latter years in high school. And as I went into college, I can remember thinking, you know, I've got to decide. What I believe I've got to decide where I stand on these things. And so I had a lot of questions going through my mind. Um, you know, our human beings, for example, really created by God, or is it all just at bottom random? There's, it's just a naturalistic universe. There is nothing else. Um, and we just, you know, Kind of came to be through some, uh, chance process that was not directed by any greater intelligence. And I, you know, I, I, wasn't sure about a lot of these things and so. There were a lot of questions running around in my head. And I can remember coming to a really a critical moment. Uh, the summer after my freshman year, I was having a conversation with my dad and telling him about my doubts. And so he asked, you know, maybe not the, I would recommend in every circumstance, but it was significant for me in the, and he said, well, if you died today, do you know you'd be going to heaven? And I said, no, I don't know that. And there was something about, um, just the directness of that question, as well as hearing out of my own mouth, this statement of, I don't really know where I am or what's going to happen when I die. That really kind of put me in a place of, I have got to get some answers. I cannot stay in this place of not knowing. Where I stand on these things. And so that actually drove me interestingly enough, first of all, to prayer, more than it did, even to careful study at that point. And so I was working the summer job, making sandwiches at a subway sandwich shop. And after midnight I'm mopping the floor. And, you know, Dave just praying some of the most real prayers in my life. You know, along the lines of God. I don't know. I don't know about you, but I know that I need you. I need you to come change my life. And I was so skeptical, even as I prayed those prayers, I didn't really expect anything to happen, but yeah, God met me anyway and he began to change my life. And over the next weeks and months, what I fought about. Uh, how I viewed the world, uh, how right you'll God seemed to me, all of that just began to shift. And the only explanation I have for that is that God answered those prayers and began to meet me. And so that started the journey, uh, that continues to this day. And I was fortunate to build relationships with other young men who were pursuing God. And, um, many of us began to grow together after that point.

David: 7:31

yeah. Gave that's that's so encouraging just to hear how. You know, the Lord used the conversation with your dad and even I'm struck actually by the directness of the question. And that just gets me thinking of man, how, how might I be more direct in just even asking good questions that might in a good way, provoke some sustained thought or wrestling with God. And so man, just encouraging him, just picturing you, uh, as a young sandwich artist at subway, just cleaned it up and having this moment with God. Uh, man. That's that's just awesome. Well, thanks for sharing. Uh, I'd love to talk a little bit about this intellectual aspect of your faith. And again, it was, it was just interesting even to hear you comment about the role that prayer played. And so this, this intellectual pursuit that you went on, it, it wasn't just an abstract kind of a theoretical thing that it sounds like there was a, a heart. Engagement there, there was a sincerity there, there was a desire did that. If God did exist, that you, you know, you were open to engaging him in a relational way. So that was also very interesting. As we said earlier, you have a PhD in mathematics from Rutgers university and gave, having listened to your preaching for many years and personally been helped through it. I think many would say that you have a certain style of ministry and especially of teaching and preaching, that really effectively engages the mind as well as the heart. And it seems to me that oftentimes Christians can fall into different camps regarding thinking in the life of the mind, on the one hand, some dismiss sort of an intellectual engagement altogether. Others almost make it the. Total focal point of the Christian experience. And I think I've sort of experienced both of those worlds throughout my journey, you know, and kind of more practical settings, as well as in seminary. I've actually talked about that with other guests on this podcast, but yeah. Uh, Gabe, I'm curious how, even as you mentioned earlier, prayer, and then intellectual engagement, what does that look like for you? How have you engaged in some of these questions in a way that. Hasn't just pushed you down a rabbit hole of greater abstraction, but that as actually complimented and supported and helped you in a very meaningful and practical way.

Gabe Bouch: 10:00

Yeah, great question. You know, I think you really identified something there, Dave, that. We are whole human beings and God wants to engage the entirety of who we are. And, um, you know, when you really believe that Jesus is Lord, then you know, you don't compartmentalize, uh, what it means to engage with God. And he really should. Uh, impact every part of who we are. And so we are emotional beings and our emotions are important. And I think if we never feel anything with God, There's there's a problem there. Uh, we're certainly not going to always feel it just like any other relationship. Right. You know, maybe I'm not just always feeling, you know, romantically, drawn to my wife for example. But if I never feel that way, you know, well then something probably needs to be repaired. And I think similarly with the Lord, you know, that, uh, our, our minds matter so much. And, um, and in my experience, Uh, we just are not. In the long run, going to hold onto something that we are not convinced is true. And so this can be an obstacle before people begin following Jesus or after they start following Jesus. Some people don't even pursue God because they think there's just too many barriers in the way they think this is, this is ridiculous. This can't be true. Certain things they believe are just blocking them off from even pursuing, uh, Real connection with a living God. But on the other hand, a person may have some kind of experience, but if they don't ever grow in their understanding of the faith, And so over time they just feel like, well, I know I, or at least I think I experienced something, but I don't know how I can really believe that this Christian faith is true. I think people will eventually walk away from it. And so I think if we're going to have a real relationship with God and a real faith, it has got to encompass. All, all of who we are, it should impact how we act, how we feel, how we think. And so I'm not sure exactly how I arrived at that conclusion per se, but that's certainly what I find in the scriptures. You know, people asked Jesus questions, they ask God questions about. Important matters as they tried to understand who God was and how he worked in the world. And, um, I mean, going back even to Abraham, right. You know, well, not the God of all the earth do what is right. I mean, you know, thousands of years ago with the, what the father of the faith, that question was already being asked and people asked that question, uh, even still today. So I think, um, I just think it's really important to engage. Both components. And, um, if we don't, uh, we're, we're going to struggle.

David: 13:03

Mm Hmm. Yeah. I think that's very true. Gave to get into this a little bit more, even with what you're working on. Now, I mentioned earlier that you launched a YouTube channel recently called the big question and this actually gets into specifically. A lot of apologetics topics. And so you've got videos that are ranging from eight to 12 minutes, each of them tackling a question. And so I love this concept. Um, Oh, you know, this, the idea of apologetics. Maybe let's just get into that for a moment. I know we've got people listening to this that are at various places and even at the most basic level, just to define that term, uh, many people know this, but. When we talk about apologetics, we're not talking about apologizing, right? Uh, w w given define that what is apologetics and how does it connect to this idea of intellectual engagement with the Christian faith?

Gabe Bouch: 14:00

Yeah, good question. You're right. Yeah. So this is a word apologetics that comes from a Greek word apology, which just means to give a defense so it could have a courtroom setting, you know, to give a defense. Um, and one of the places, you know, that. Uh, it shows up in the new Testament is in first Peter chapter three here, the context is not so much focusing on an intellectual defense, but a situation which followers of Jesus were suffering for their faith. And what we read in first, Peter, three 15 off back up and start in verse 14. Even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. Do not fear their threats do not be frightened, but in your hearts, Revere Christ as Lord always be prepared to give an answer. That word that gets translated in the answer is that Greek word apology, which could be a defense, always be prepared to give an answer or a defense to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. So again, the context here was maybe not, you know, an academic defense, but a situation where people were suffering. Life was hard, but they're filled with hope. And so, you know, someone asks how in the world are you hopeful in the middle of what's your experience? And, and Peter is saying there, Hey, be ready to. Answer that be ready to speak to that. Be ready to give a defense for this hope that you have. And that's the idea of apologetics, Y you know, uh, be ready to communicate a reason, a defense for why we would give our lives to Jesus, why we would commit ourselves. To the Christian faith. And so, as you can imagine, Dave, this could happen to all kinds of levels. It could be very intellectual. They could be very fundamental questions like, well, why would you even believe that God exists? Or how could anybody trust, you know, a book. That was, you know, written thousands of years ago. Like we know so much more now, or, you know, how could you possibly believe there's a God when we see all the pain that we see around us, those sorts of things, you know, where apologetics is about speaking into those things, giving a reason why we would still be confident in Jesus, uh, in spite of perhaps, um, you know, some of those objections.

David: 16:24

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Gabe, I know you're a thoughtful person. W w when did you really begin to dive into this world of, of apologetics? Was that a part of your early journey, or was that something that you developed a more specific interest in later on as you were administrator

Gabe Bouch: 16:43

Yeah, good question. I think it started pretty early for me. Uh, you know, a lot of it is just how we're wired. Uh, you've probably experienced this yourself. Some people are naturally drawn to leadership or some people are naturally drawn to caring for people or, um, communicating. And I love to get to the bottom of things and, um, Truth is a big driver for me. I love to understand things, Dave, that's actually part of why I enjoyed studying mathematics so much, uh, is that, um, in mathematics, our goal is to prove theorems. So not just know that it is true, but basically be able to see. Exactly why it is true, and to be able to, uh, establish that in a completely logical manner now, uh, doing apologetics is not exactly like that. There are, you know, um, given reasons for believing in God or having confidence in the scriptures. Uh, these are not just, you know, proofs like mathematical proofs, but that's more the work of philosophy and history and, and marshaling evidence and coming up with Beck's best explanations of the data. Uh, so it's a little bit different exercise, but I still love, um, approaching subjects and getting real clarity on them. And I actually, I had an experience when I was a college student. That was really significant for me. Uh, in this whole field of apologetics, I was, uh, as a math major, I had to take this, uh, kind of introductory computer programming class. And so we were doing the basics of, uh, of programming and we were going over a homework question one day. And I remember the professor gave the answer to this homework question. And in the moment I just knew, Nope, that's not right. That's not what the, that's not what this little algorithm is going to produce. And so I raised my hand and said, no, I don't think it's going to be that it's going to be this. And the next thing you know, we're kind of going back and forth a little bit. And I was so convinced. And, um, and so after a few more back and forth, uh, the professor said, Oh yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. Uh, it is going to be what you said now. Let it be known. I was not always right, but this just happened to be one of those moments where I had to get it right. And Dave, right. I remember right after that, I was, uh, I was still a pretty new follower of Jesus. I got this strong sense from the Holy spirit. Um, just since the God was saying to me, I want you to do what you just did there, but with the gospel. Can you, and so I've felt this, you know, one of the things that I believe God has called me to is to help people believe you, can't always make somebody want to believe, you know, that might require different things, but there are many times where people are struggling in their faith and, um, and they need someone to come alongside them. And help them believe. And I believe God has done that for me over the years, you know, I'm, I'm much more confident in the faith now than I was when I was a brand new believer. Um, I often think to myself, boy, I would, you know, not that I don't have plenty of questions myself. We all have questions. Right. Uh, I don't have the answers to everything just like nobody else does. But I often think boy, I would find it intellectually very, very difficult. To not be a Christian. So, um, yeah, so for me, I think that's something that started early in that, um, was even a specific thing that God was calling me to.

David: 20:29

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I've heard you share that before and it's, it's impactful. How do you feel like at the practical level, even that sense of calling, just sitting there in that math classroom and having this moment with the professor, and then you're just kind of get this sense of conviction that God is calling you to. Engage in this sort of a dialogue, not merely about mathematics, but about the gospel. How has that directed some of the later decisions that you made and how you've invested your time?

Gabe Bouch: 21:01

yeah. Good question for one, as you kind of referenced earlier, I think it impacts everything I've done. Ministry wise. I. Um, the person who is struggling with believing something or the person who's naturally going to say, Oh, I don't know if I'm would believe that I'm not so sure about that. That person is always in mind for me. So maybe somebody that who would have a real mercy or healing gift might always have in mind, the person who is broken or really dealing with the suffering in his or her life. Um, but for me, I, I. I regularly have in mind that individual who is, who is doubting, who is skeptical. And, you know, as we've talked about before, Dave, I think that's very common in our culture right now. You know, we live in a secular culture. And so, um, the Christian faith is always being challenged. I mean, it'll sneak up on you. It can happen in a commercial. It could happen in a movie or television show. It could happen in a tweet. You see? I mean, it's always being challenged. So I think. Almost every Christian is regularly going to experience some degree of doubt because our culture is always pushing on it. It's always doubting. Is there really a spiritual world? Is there really a God? Is there really a life after this life, those sorts of things. And so I think it will help anybody. Uh, and so yeah, for me, that means when I'm. Preparing a sermon, for example, or when I'm having a conversation with somebody, I'm just assuming there's probably going to be some skepticism there. There's probably going to be some doubt there. There's probably, um, you know, they're going to wrestle with is God really present? Does he really exist? And what will he really act in my life? So, because of that, I keep those sort of questions in mind and it impacts how I read the scriptures. Um, it impacts the sort of resources that I myself, uh, spend time reading and learning about, because I want to be able to help people who, you know, deal with those questions, which again, I think is more typical than atypical these days. Uh, and then, yeah. Um, you know, on top of that, sometimes there are. You know, as you have referred to a few times, you know, I started this YouTube channel because I do feel like, Hey, that's something that God has specifically called me to. So I think all believers and all Christian leaders, especially on college campuses would be. Would do well to, um, to do some reading and learning and growing in this area, uh, because it just, I think affects everybody. And then for, for some of us, it's something that we're going to put extra attention on. So yeah, I would say it affects how I read it affects how I engage people. It affects how I communicate.

David: 24:00

Yeah, I definitely can see that. Well, Gabe, for the person that's listening to this and thinking, okay, I see the point. I don't have a PhD in mathematics, but I see the point. I see the value in digging in just a little bit more intentionally into the study of some of these things. Are there any particular resources that you like to recommend for somebody that is wanting to wait into this area of apologetics?

Gabe Bouch: 24:27

yeah, good question. I think there are, you know, the, the benefit is there are a lot of great resources, a lot of really good resources. I'll mention a few, uh, for those who like to read. Uh, there's a book called tactics that is very helpful because the main idea here is that you don't have to have all the answers and thank God because none of us do, right. None of us can answer every question that comes up. But. Asking questions is so powerful. People believe things for ridiculous reasons, people, things that they've never really thought through. And so I think just asking them about that, you know, asking simple questions about, you know, there might be something like, tell me more about, uh, what you believe or tell me more about why you think that I was, I was, um, not so long ago. Uh, Taking an Uber and it was a long Uber drive over an hour. So I had some time with my Uber driver and a gospel song came on and I asked her about that and started to ask her what she believed. And she said, Oh, well, you know, uh, I believe in the universe. And so my thought was, well, I believe the universe exists too, but I'm pretty sure she means something different by that statement than what I'm thinking about. That statement. So just asking questions of, Oh, tell me what you mean by that or what do you mean by that? And so that's a great question to let people tell you what they believe. And then a great followup question to that is, well, Well, why did you start believing that? Or, or how did you come to that conclusion? Why do you think that? And just let people talk. And I think that can go such a long way and you don't have to have any answers about anything. You can just be curious. And I think we should be interested in other people. We should be curious about what people think. And so that's such a great place to start. And so this book, tactics, dives into that and gives a lot more examples and how you can use just the power of asking questions. To go a long way, uh, in this area. And so I, I really encourage people in that way. Uh, there's also perhaps the best known Christian apologist alive today is a man named William Lane, Craig, and he's got a website, a reasonable faith.org that has a lot of helpful resources on it. And not everybody will agree with every theological position that he takes. And, um, that's just always going to be true, you know, rarely do we agree on everything with any other person. And, um, but he's very, very thoughtful, a very careful thinker. And he's even got a lot of short videos on his website that are extremely helpful, some short articles. So that's a nice place to start because you don't have to dive into, you know, a 500 page book or something and you can even share those with other people. So I find that really helpful. Um, You know, Tim Keller, a lot of people know that name. Uh, he was a pastor for many years in New York city. And so he just lived in a context, which, in which his assumption was, people are not going to believe the Christian faith. They're going to doubt it. And, um, so he's just got lots of on the ground experience with people who. You know, we're skeptical and, uh, we're secular people. And, uh, so his books, the reason for God and making sense of God, uh, as well as some others are, are very, very helpful. Uh, and his tone is really great, you know, so much, so much about engaging people on these questions. I think it'd be a matter of tone also, you know, not, not brushing off their questions, not like, Oh my gosh, that's such, why would you think that? But understanding, Hey, I get that. Yeah, that makes sense. I've asked questions like that too. What do you think about this? Or what do you think about this idea? I mean, that so much of that can go a long way. And I have found Dave in my experience many times, people don't know, I need a lot of answers, but it will really help them. If, if they recognize that you are thoughtful, And that's, you've really given thought to these questions, even that can start to bring down some walls, because again, our ultimate goal is not to give people just a new set of beliefs or a new philosophy. We want them to engage with a living God. And, um, and that's the ultimate goal, whether they have great answers for every question or not, the goal is. Hey, can we help them really engage with this God, uh, who does have all the answers who is good, who is just, who is loving, who brings hope. That's what we're trying to get people. So, um, yeah, those are a few places that I I think are, and a few resources that I think are really great.

David: 29:27

Yeah, well, those are some great suggestions. We'll be sure to link to those in the show notes. And yeah, I've personally benefited from many of those resources. In fact, uh, Timothy Keller's book, making a sense of God. I think that might be my all time favorite of all of his books, which is kind of difficult to choose from because I really like a lot of his books. Uh, but yeah, those are, those are some great places to start for sure. Gabe a follow-up to that. And I know this won't necessarily apply to everyone, but even thinking about this area of apologetics and presenting a, a thoughtful, uh, uh, presenting a thoughtful, um, outlay of the gospel and, and engaging with some of the doubts that people have. One thing that you do on a regular basis is you, you, you speak, you preach, uh, in, in a local church context for those that are, are. You know, speaking in that way, how has this apologetic study connected with your public preaching? Because I think everything you've shared so far, I mean, it applies at the one-on-one level, which is something that's for everybody. Uh, but how has this also influenced your public communication and any tips for. Those that are communicating publicly, whether it be in a college ministry setting or in a local church or in some other setting, uh, how do, how do you communicate, uh, on these matters in a way that, uh, comes across well, in that setting

Gabe Bouch: 31:00

Yeah, again, I think number one is to keep in mind, people are doubting. Even the ones who identify as Christians, sitting out, listening to what you're saying, they have questions they're skeptical. They're not sure how to answer certain questions. Just keeping that in mind will help you as you prepare so that when you're no matter what topic you're, you're speaking on. Uh, you know, for example, if I'm, if I'm saying I'm giving a message on prayer. Well, you know, probably a lot of people are thinking, yeah, I feel like I've prayed a lot of times and God hasn't answered.

David: 31:40

Hmm.

Gabe Bouch: 31:41

So being a w just being aware of what people are thinking and feeling can start to impact some of what you do and say. And so I know that, you know, if I'm going to give a message like that, Then maybe it's going to encourage them to talk about, for example, Hey ma what might be some reasons why I feel like I'm not hearing anything back from God or he's not responding to my prayers. Maybe I can just name that and put that out on the table. Um, this also goes a long way, even, even when you don't give perfect answers, just acknowledging that that question exists helps the person listening and go like, okay. You know, good. I'm not the only one or is this person just live in some reality that, uh, I don't know, or they will just go to the other end and say, I think this guy's just blowing smoke. He's, you know, he's not in touch, uh, because he's not even addressing any of the real issues that come up or that I'm thinking about. So having that in mind, um, Again, I will regularly when I'm speaking on a topic, try to do some research in an area that is going to be helpful, that is going to, um, address some of those questions. So in my experience, uh, in a preaching context, you know, if you just are only living in the, at the intellectual level and not engaging the emotions at all or relationships at all, That is usually not the best, uh, you know, way to present in a speaking, uh, context. People ultimately need to be engaged at, at those levels as well, but even adding just a little bit, uh, can help a lot. So. You know, to give a practical example, um, you know, Easter, maybe that's, maybe that's an obvious one, but we're celebrating the resurrection. Uh, you know, I don't, perhaps most people just speaking on the resurrection just assumes that everybody believes in the resurrection. And of course the resurrection is true, but from my perspective, I'm thinking. Well, probably a lot of people are doubting actually that Jesus really Rose from the dead. Especially if a friend who's not yet a Christian has been invited to participate. And so maybe I don't want to spend the entire sermon giving, you know, a hundred reasons why we should be confident that Jesus was raised from the dead, but maybe I can spend. 10 minutes on that or five minutes on that point and engaged that recognizing, Hey, people are asking that question. People are wondering about that. Um, you know, when we preach sermons, most of the time, obviously we're preaching from the scriptures. Well, maybe it's good every once in a while to step back a level and say, Hey, why are we confident in these scriptures? Why do we do this? And there are good reasons for that. You know, for example, if you're a confident that Jesus has been raised from the dead well, Jesus used the scriptures a lot. So if, uh, Jesus has been raised from the dead and he used the scriptures a lot, that could make sense for us to use the scriptures a lot, but maybe a lot of people haven't thought about that or, um, or even, you know, it could come in in a different way. For example, especially when we're reading the old Testament, but even in the new Testament, many times we'll feel that cultural distance. And so it can just feel like another world. And so we read these things about, you know, Men having multiple wives. So we read about slavery or we read about something that looks like genocide or, um, just other commands that strike us in a way that. Um, you know, challenge us, challenges us in some way. Well, I found it helpful to give people cultural background and to try as best as we can to get on the inside of that world, that the original authors and audiences were living in. Um, because otherwise it's very easy to come from and just sort of a. Position of cultural snobbery that we now see everything rightly. And so giving cultural context, I have found often has great apologetic value. It makes it more real to people. It helps them see it in a way that they don't just bring all their biases against that thinking. Oh, you know, how could I believe anything if they're, if they're, you know, talking about having multiple wives, I mean, that's just, you know, that, so belittles women. I can't even be open to what this says. Well, again, giving some context can help bring those barriers down. So, um, those are, those are some different ways that I, I think try to incorporate, uh, something that's connected with apologetics in preaching.

David: 36:27

Yeah, well, that's so helpful. Yeah. I really appreciate that insight. I think that's just so well illustrated by what you do, but to hear more of the inside of what you're thinking about how you're approaching it, I think that's just really helpful for those that are communicating publicly in any setting along these lines. Well, Gabe, as we wrap up today, I just want to come back to even the more personal level, thinking again about your story. And I'm thinking about those that are listening to this that, uh, are at a pivotal moment of their lives. You shared earlier on about. This significant season, when you had a moment in the math class where you felt like God was really speaking to you and leading you a similar moment, uh, in a subway sandwich shop, when you were cleaning up at the end of a Workday for the college student, that's listening to this, uh, or even perhaps for the young college ministry leader, uh, any words of advice or encouragement that you would want to say to them? Uh, at this point,

Gabe Bouch: 37:33

Yeah. Uh, boy, you know, um, God is far better than we think. You know, Dave, when I, when I just started, when I first started following Jesus, I had no idea that I was going to get to see as much as I've seen. Or, or understand as much as I've understood. And I say that very humbly knowing there's so much, I don't understand. And there are plenty of questions I still have, but, you know, I was just, I started this journey with Jesus, skeptical, underconfident thinking, boy, I don't know if I would ever really experienced God like that. I don't know if I would ever really know God that way. I don't know if I will ever really get answers to all these questions, but God has just continued to surprise me in his goodness that there are good answers. For so many of the questions that, you know, we ask. And so if, for example, if you're listening to this and you're really wrestling with doubt and you think, boy, is it just always going to be this way? You will probably always have questions in this lifetime. That's probably never going to stop, but can you get to a new place of, of deeper understanding and deeper confidence in the faith at the intellectual level, at the personal level, you really can. And God has met me in that way. And I'm so grateful for it. There's so many, there's we, we have so much great evidence for the Christian faith and then similarly for how he'll work in your life personally, you know, um, I just. Uh, uh, I remember starting off following Jesus and I, I would hear these people every once in awhile who described their relationship with God in such a way. I remember thinking I'm just way too analytical for that. I don't think I would ever feel like God was leading me like that, or God was communicating to me like that. And, um, And now looking back over my life, just the number of times that God has met me and has led me in all my analytical mindset, my mathematical mind, you know, who's not prone to mysticism or, you know, uh, that sort of thing at all. Uh, even still God speaks to a man like me and leads a man like me. And so I, I want to encourage others that may have a similar mind. They may think I'm so analytical. I don't know if I would ever really experienced God that way. God is just so gracious and he meets us wherever we are and he speaks to us. And, uh, and so I just want to encourage you that as you pursue God, uh, he'll meet you, uh, at every level, at the personal level, at the intellectual level, uh, God has got us so gracious.

David: 40:33

wow. Well gay. That is so encouraging. I know there's a lot of people that are going to be so helped by that. And so thank you for that word of encouragement and just for everything that you shared through the course of this interview really appreciate it. We'll be sure to link to the big question, YouTube channel and some of the other resources that you have referenced. And, uh, just thanks so much for your generosity with your time, your willingness to invest into younger leaders through this podcast. I sincerely appreciate it.

Gabe Bouch: 41:05

Well, my joy, Dave, I love that you're doing this. You know, my heart is always for college students, those ministry and in the, you know, on college campuses. And so I'm so grateful that, uh, you're making that investment into the next generation of leaders and I'm happy I can.