Pastor and Entrepreneur Adrian Crawford on Effective Cultural Engagement in the Context of Christian Ministry

Adrian Crawford has a passion for engaging people with the Gospel. His ministry approach and preaching style at Engage Tallahassee, the church he planted in 2011, attempt to engage contemporary culture and lead them into devotion to Jesus. 

In this episode, Adrian joins for a conversation about engaging culture in the context of ministry in the local church and in particular ministry with young adults. 

Additional bio and related links for Adrian Crawford on the episode webpage here>>

Transcript

David: 0:36

while I am here with my good friend, Adrian Crawford, pastor of engaged church in Tallahassee, Florida, Adrian. So good to have you on the podcast today.

Adrian C: 0:46

Mandate. It is an honor to be on the pod today, man. I really appreciate you. I have me on and, uh, it really excited man about, you know, taking the step, you know, we had talked about it. You took the step through this with awesome. Why should you do it, man, against some really good people and add real value, you know, to the community. So I appreciate it.

David: 1:04

well, bro, appreciate it. Yeah, you are one of the people that I would say inspire me to do this. And, uh, so thanks also for your input. I remember texting you and getting some advice. Some of it. I took some of it. I probably should have taken, but didn't take, but, uh, you know what, Hey, lessons learned along the way. Right. But bro, you and I have known each other for years. I do consider you a friend. And uh, you're somebody that not just in the area of podcasting, but in lots of areas, I would say. Say you you've challenged me. You've inspired me. And, uh, it's really just an honor to have you on the podcast. If you would, just to share with the audience a little bit about your background, how it relates to faith and how you, how you got involved in ministry leadership.

Adrian C: 1:49

Yeah. Um, I was not a, a church goer or I come from the line of pastors. My great-grandfather was a pastor. Um, You know, we passed the three churches in Mississippi and Memphis, um, during time with Jim Crow. So I tell people, it's like, you know, if you want to know what it was like, pastor going to hell, like, you know, he did it, you know, um, uh, there, my grandfather pastored as well, uh, in Memphis and missing took over those three churches. My father kind of skipped over him and he went to be a coach, but it's interesting. My father in his own way, the reason why he coached, because he literally always says he's like, it was about like helping. The next generation and helping people. So what did he pass there in his own way? And then kind of 19, I had a radical conversion experience here at Florida state. Um, and you know, first time I ever heard the gospel preach and, you know, in a, in a way I should say this in a way that I could understand. You know, and, um, I mean, I began to be, you know, I began to kind of, uh, search and realize that. And probably like from my first meeting, I heard the gospel, um, that summer, it was around September and athletic Bible study. I was, I was playing basketball here at Florida state that summer. Um, I went to a conference, um, in Nashville, Tennessee, and, uh, yeah, man, July, somebody was like, yeah, July 9th, 1998, man. Um, Um, around eight 30. I remember where I was at. I remember about the world outreach center. You know what I'm saying? Right. Side of the altar. I remember going down there, you know, uh, past the rice Brooks, uh, you know, he, uh, gave, you know, I knew I'd been enough, uh, church services at that point in time that, uh, I knew that he was gonna do this altar call thing. So I didn't get a brother chance to invite me down. I just started walking to the front, you know what I'm saying? And so responding from that moment on man, it was, um, you know, it was just a. Just, I knew in that my, the light switch turned on and, uh, and I was fully in to serving Jesus and, you know, through the process of sanctification and all just had a heart and desire. Um, you know, I would have dreams of preaching in front of thousands of people. And honestly, you'd have I'd wake up and rebuke those dreams. I'm like, man, heck no, I ain't go in that. Are you really? And, um, But I knew God had a call on my life. And so, but I also knew God had her call my life to do that. I always wanted it, you know, to kind of, I thought entrepreneurship was a part of it. So I kind of went in both worlds and, um, yeah. And that's kind of how I've been since that point. And, uh, little did I know when I set out to do that, that God would kind of use it to kind of spark a movement and this idea of, uh, innovative reconciliation. So yeah, that's kind of how I got into it again. Um, I tell people, man, there is a. Sorry. Jesus is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Um, but it's the most fulfilling thing, you know, in my life. And so I'm very grateful for it.

David: 4:19

yeah, come on, man. Great story. Well, I remember knowing of you before I ever, probably years before I ever actually knew you. I mean, you were definitely one of the cool kids. You were an athlete on the FSU basketball team. Rolling, rolling with all the other athletes. I was just, uh, I was just every day. major. Just, just do my thing, go into the Bellamy building. Right? So you, uh, even now I know this is, uh, only an audio podcast, but if the audience could see you, I mean, you've got a very cool artistically drawn, a Nike shoe behind you. I mean, you got a very cool, you know, just a little. Salt and pepper beard. I mean, you, you just, you just stay cool. So I wish I could get on your level, but Hey, I just, I just got know, know, know who I am. Right. So, uh, but anyway, man, uh, with that row, Just a really has been an honor to get to know you over the years. Just, just more, you know, more than the personal level and just seeing the way that you love your family and the way that you minister. Uh, I know you touched on it just a little bit with what you just shared of, of just, uh, racial reconciliation, ethnic racial reconciliation, and, and pastoring, a church that is very diverse in a Southern us city. Uh, you know, and, and you've really leaned in, um, to some of these conversations about race. And so I'm excited to talk about that, but maybe before we get into that, if you could just share a little bit about your vision for not only. Engaging people which you do and helping them engage with God, but, uh, really engaging culture. I mean, you're a very culturally aware guy, you know, lots of cultural references in your sermons and things like that. And, and I think you just do just a really powerful job of, of connecting with people's, um, connecting with people's passion, connecting culture with the gospel. Could you talk a little bit about that? How, how did you learn to do this?

Adrian C: 6:11

Yeah. Um, and no, I appreciate, um, you know, you saying those things, they even, I think that, you know, honestly how I, I did it was because not growing up in church, um, I always try to think of people. Like myself who didn't know anything. And what I try to do always say through, I tried to connect you like to a street level. Like, I, I, I think I always struggled to like study theology. Missile gets a kind of how I got to the place of understanding culture is because it never made sense to me. Right. It was just like, okay. Yeah. There's like big words. And I'm like, okay, but how does this actually impact like my everyday life? Or how does it impact somebody's everyday life and, and, um, And I think that over the years, I started to learning that, you know, listening to different people kind of knew that, but going into culture, what really impacted me, I'll never forget I was reading something and I can't even remember where I read it from, but it really stuck to me. It was, it was somebody said that Matthew, matter of fact, it was a, I kind of sensed this and I heard it from somebody else, but really where I saw it really written with John mark, Homer wrote this a few years back, but it's this idea of Matthew 28. You know, Matthew 20 is just abrasive Genesis one 28, you know, so Genesis one 28, go into the world, make something of it. You know what I'm saying? I said to do that works to do violent work. You know what I'm saying? It's the go make something of the world. You know, the first call of humanity was to take this where there'll be these representatives of God in the earth to go and make culture. You know what I mean? Go and, and make, you know, make arts, um, you know, go and make, you know, tech, I mean go and just make something of the world with God. It may even, but outside of that, the rest of the world was like, All the resources there. We were just called it out and go and make something of the world, go to the human flourishing. And then we know that's what humans did. Genesis three happen. Humans still did that, but now it became about us versus it being about God. And we see the height of that. And, you know, in Genesis 11 at the tower of Babel, but then yen. So Genesis 12, we see God. And just as mercy and grace says through one man through one family through one nation. Um, you're gonna be a blessing. And Matthew 28 go into the world, make disciples. What I started realizing is in the church space, sometimes we never connected people's everyday life and the work that they do to actually what God had called them human suffers to do so it was normal. It was, you know, go make disciples. It was like, okay. And there was like, man, a little bit more alive and you know, with, um, honor God and you know, with your money, your time and all this stuff. But it never was like, yeah, you work and you work with integrity, which isn't important. But there was like, but that was kind of, it, it was never like, oh, like, this is really the work that I'm doing, where if I'm a telemarketer or I'm a entrepreneur in tech or I'm a school teacher or whatever, that's sacred. And I began to realize like, oh, Matthew 28 was still when people back to God to still do what God told humans to do. And just as a one 28 and many times unfortunate, we just stop at Matthew 28. And most people are bored in their faith. They just like, they don't understand how this actually works because you think about it. Uh, Dave, you know, we spend most of our time either working or sleeping. I mean, you, if you really think about if you're healthy, you know, if you're healthy, like you, Dave, you know, you probably get a good eight hours, you know what I'm saying? Now that your kids get a little bit older, you know, these are good. Eight hours of sleep, you know? I mean, um,

David: 9:12

the earlier years.

Adrian C: 9:13

the earlier years, you know what I'm saying? So, um, and, um, but like, you know, you get arc and then normally you don't have today's work. You're working eight to 10 hours. You know, most people's that's 18 hours. So now, you know, you're left for what six to do. And you're saying as pastors and leaders, we learn to spend all this time that people at their best they've, you've been doing ministry for a long time. People at their best, if they give you an hour, a day of the vocational, prayer goes, dude, you got a rockstar, right. But we spend all of our time doing that, but not talking about the other 18 hours of what people do or the other interactions they do. And so I was like, This has to be more so that's why I got passionate. Right? Cause I'm like, you know, culture matters because remember we're, we're called the redeem. We're called the reconciled, the world. People don't want another, but also creation back to its original intent. So that's where I began to kind of work on that, realizing that man, the work that I do here, there might do it in a way that's God honoring in a way it's about human flourishing. Those are things that remain, you know, and, and I believe in that's where it's at. So

David: 10:15

yeah. that's great. Well, and I know you've, you've done a lot of things over the years, specifically to really lean into that aspect of ministry, various trainings, you know, institutes, things like that. Uh, I would imagine that's been very energizing for people that when you start talking about these things and really giving them a vision for how to live for God, not just. One day a week or one hour a day, but really thinking about, and helping them practically work through how to honor God all day long in your work, in your job, no matter how quote unquote secular your job or your work may seem that that's very energizing for people. What kind of responses have you gotten as you've really began to speak to and disciple people in this type of a way?

Adrian C: 11:04

Yeah. Um, you're absolutely right. And again, we, you know, they, we kind of incubated this thing here called the new rules project and it was all about like, just really about purpose development, but where that, you know, where that first iteration went to, it went to something that we have not called the Nehemiah Institute. And what we do in the Nehemiah Institute, it's all about launching what we call innovative reconciles, right? And so this will get to how people have impacted them, innovative reconciles to us. That's just our word for what we talked about. The cycles as people who are connected to God and connect others to God, they're connected to one that they're connected to one another. And they know how to connect people, ministers of reconciliation, and they're connected to their meaningful work in which their meaningful work hopefully inspires others to do their meaningful work. So the Nehemiah Institute is all about developing innovative reconcilers. And so what we do is we really focus on the story of God. We work on mental, emotional health, right within the gospel. We talk on this idea of empathy. What does that really mean and how it actually works in evangelism and all that. And then we go to purpose, really purchased. So we have like this kind of, this whole approach that we do. And here's what happens. What we have seen in this is people's faith. Increase their love for Jesus increase. Their passion for Jesus to increase. Um, we have seen these people as well. Like, I'll give you a quick story. Uh, a gentleman I've heard loving to death named Ken Wade, uh, a gentlemen from the south 70 plus years old. Good old boy hunts fish, the whole deal. Um, and I'm gonna see, you know, again, not, you know, I'm to becoming middle aged and now definitely middle-aged black man. And, um, and man can wait, was it on Nehemiah Institute at 70 plus years old retired, just watching him. Just discover, man. It's like this last run of his life, what God's called him to do and watching him on stage our graduation, weeping and crying and, and man, a guy who really man, he could go to any in this current cultural moment. I know we'll talk about this man and go to any church, but this man looks at me and says, I just want one thing for me. There was that most of the time was like, this is when I die. I want you to bear with me. You know, and like watching him come alive as a seven year old white male ever seeing people's failures, see people's marriages, uh, Dave get better because now people, once they find out who God's called them to be, they're not looking for their spouse to fulfill that. Um, you know, we're finding people who may be stay at home moms. Realizing. Oh, they can actually, there is real content. You know, we talk a lot about content versus containers. People were obsessed and I won't go too much at this about containers in life. Right. You know, I'm a, I'm an engineer, I'm a teacher. I'm a pastor or whatever versus no, no, no. That's just the container. That's not the content of who you are. So now we're helping stay at home moms who are like, man. This is what God's called him in this season. But man, that doesn't mean your calling is that the, like the content, the content of who you are, man, you can use that. And what you're doing to stay at home. Mom, you can use that. If you went to go work at Google, you can go use that. If you went to go work at Amazon or whatever it is, and what you see is people come alive. So they're like, oh, This is more. Yeah. And they really see internal significance of doing that. You know, I see that in my life, there was a parent, as I learned more and more about who God's made me to be, I've been a better, a better father. You know what? Me and my wife, like, you know, we both are entrepreneurs and here's the thing I'm better when it comes to life. In this sense of when it comes to mental and emotional health. In this sense, normally I would say the role of a mother. Okay. You do the nurturing and the emotional for the kids. I'm just really good at it. So I do this everywhere else. Why wouldn't I do this to my home, many times a skill we use at our job, they, we just leave, like we leave it at the job and then come home and like get into these roles of like, well, the wife does as a husband. This is like, no, you're good. Like the best, the most important place to use this is in your home. And we use our gifts, you know, the people who are great with budgets and they, they, they, they Oregon, they, they have a, their CFOs of companies. You know, or whatever. And then they come home and they're like, well, you know, my husband does the books and you're like, He can't, you know what I'm saying? But like, we do that because why he's wrong? So, anyway, let me say, we just have seen things change in people and actually we've seen people just, I mean, get on fire for Jesus as they actually figured that their calling in life matters in the kingdom. And we have that phrase that we say it all time, everything and nothing. Your calling has everything to do with you and nothing to do with you. Everything cause it's yours. Nothing cause any God-given calling is all about human flourishing. It's all about everything. It's all about others because that's the kingdom of God.

David: 15:17

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I love some of the language that you guys have put around that it really makes it a little more sticky and, and just, just, yeah. The concept and containers and all of that. So, man, that's really good stuff. I know that's something that in our own campus ministry that I lead in the Philly area, that's something that we've tried to get more intentional about. I wouldn't say that we've arrived, but just, uh, I, I do find that and I think probably most maybe, I mean, I don't, I'm generalizing here, but I think. Most ministry leaders would desire to do the kind of thing that you're talking about saying. yeah. of course. I want to equip people, not just to do one hour a week of, uh, or, or one hour, a day of Christian activity, but really to live everyday, all day as a disciple for Jesus, but just, just some of those. Core practices, the, uh, how to read the Bible and praying and trying to not live constantly tangled with say, I mean, it just, those things, even as simple as they may sound, it can take a lot to help get somebody through that. And I think especially so in a college ministry setting where you've, you've got such a brief window of time that you're really trying to help people take some significant steps and help them shift the trajectory of their lives. Uh, but nevertheless, I think it is so important. At every stage and every type of industry to help give people a bigger vision. And so I know something just simple we've started doing the last few years is, uh, putting a book in student, graduating students, hands, uh, every good endeavor by Timothy Keller, connecting your work to God's work. If you're familiar with a great book, I think on some of this, uh, but certainly room to grow room to, to continue developing in that. So I love how you and your church are really pioneered and taken it to a whole nother level than what I've seen in a lot of places.

Adrian C: 16:59

well, I appreciate that. And I want to speak because I agree and I want to, and I, and I really appreciate that. Like you clarify, because I think that they've your harps, the right. I don't want to minimize ever the fact that like the spiritual disciplines, because spiritual disciplines, like. You know, I, some people, you can be the most creative, innovative during things like that, but if you're ungodly, you know, like what's the point, you know what I'm saying? Like Daniel was deeply devoted to Jesus and really good at what he did. That's what we should aim for Nehemiah was the same way Jesus was the same on and on. And I think that those things, and I think what you're saying, right, for, you know, again, a lot of that, a lot of campus ministry, but college ministry, listen to this, you have to understand, I love your approach, Dave, you are just a part of the journey. So it's like, what's the most important building block for them. In this life. And like you were saying, why these people you're getting there just for the first time discovering faith. And so that's the most important thing is getting that devotional life within them. But I think what you're saying is putting things in their hands as they go, because I think where it ends up stopping many times that they leave or they're in college campus, especially if you're a campus ministry where you're man, we got to go make disciples. What we'll do is where I think people get turned upside down sometimes like, then they go to work and they're like, all they were thinking was like, okay, well I'm not reaching anybody, so I'm not reaching anybody. So if I'm not reaching anybody, then I must, I must start doing like that where it's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's okay. They're both like, you know, two things can be equally true, right? Like, oh no, you can, man. You add any value at your work is incredibly important and man that's and then making disciples, you know, and they both go hand in hand because you're you add value to your workplace and you start seeing what's the needs in your workplace. You know what happens? People just start to talk to you. They open up and that's just not only, Hey, I gotta be the best in my job. You may not be the top sales person. You made me the 10th, but you're giving all your effort, but you know what, though, you're also looking around and saying, oh, I sent them. And there was maybe a cynicism that people were really cynical in our office. Maybe the way you come in, it's like, oh man, I'm just going to be an encourager. And that changes the atmosphere. And then people like, you know, those guys were, but I like being around the field. They feel it, you know, and they start feeling with you. They can explain it as a keynote. Like that just feels right. And then they start to talk to you and you know what you do. I tell people, I talk to team all the time in our church. All you got to do God open doors. You just gotta be ready to know the story and just how it that's it. We don't say people, you just have to know the story and tell it. And I think so many times we make evangelism to be such as high pressure thing versus like pray for God to open doors. And when he opens doors, You got the story to tell and let the story be like the story don't meet. Listen, this one, it's the greatest story ever told they don't need a lot of add to it. You know what I'm saying? You don't got to add no extra fun to the story. You know what I'm saying? They, they, they ain't my like that gumbo you, ain't got to add extra spices to the story. You know what I'm saying? It's already baked in there. So.

David: 19:39

very spicy.

Adrian C: 19:40

It's already very spicy thing. You know what I'm saying? As soon as you tell people like, yeah, eat my flesh and drink my blood, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's already spicy enough. You don't need to add more hurdles through them. So

David: 19:52

Oh man. That's fun. Well, bro, love it. Yeah. And, uh, we shared, uh, it just. Link to some resources that with your church, that you have available on this, uh, along with the show notes, but changing gears with the conversation here a little bit, I do want to talk some about just this idea and work that you've been doing in the area of racial reconciliation and anybody listening to this surely is going to be well aware that this last year, especially as we're recording this may of 2021, this last year has been. What are the most stressful years for lots of people, for lots of reasons. And certainly one of the things that has, uh, has happened in our nation is just a greater sense of awareness of some of the racial tensions that certainly are not new, but, uh, really, really have been, felt more acutely over the last year and certainly over the last summer. And, uh, Just, I've got to ask as a, as a African-American, uh, pastor lead, pastor of a multi-ethnic church. What is this season been like for you and how have you been, um, trying to lead through it?

Adrian C: 20:58

no. And, um, you're you're right. I mean, this was a very like everybody, this is a very difficult year, you know, you know, uh, you know, once in a lifetime pandemic, you know, social unrest, I mean, you know, Silwan, that's all this stuff and it's been, let me say this, David it's been, um, it has been. Difficult in this sense, because there's even things, things that me, as a, as a black man who is, you know, really built in multi-ethnic spaces and really power, really, really passionate about building reconciled spaces. There are some things actually I woke up to, you know, and what I mean by that if I. You know, so many times you just get so used to doing things. Right. And one of the things that really got me was that, you know, when they were doing my shoes in the protest, they were pulling statutes down. Right. And so, you know, one of the things for me was that I started realizing like, man, one day I just sit in there and there, it was one of the Confederates monuments, whatever. And I was like, I used to play basketball. I can Robert E. Lee high school. And that never bothered me. You know what I mean? Like, it never bother me because I'm like, hold up. Like that's not okay. And people are like, well, you know, it was about tryna, you know, whatever, like, you know, it was about tradition and, you know, inherited. And I was like, yeah, you know, so it woke me up to like, man, I've been okay with that. And not like, you know, I'm gonna go pull a statue down, but there's certain things you woke up. There are certain things that man that I realized that at times I thought, man, if I can just build a reconciled diverse church, Everything is going to be fine. And that it out versus like, no, there are some things I need to speak out about. And so there are some things, you know, so what you have to fight as a Batman it's shame like, man, why am I speak up more about this before, whatever, whatever. Um, but also isn't, it was an incredible opportunity as well. And so how I've lived through a Dave is that I tell people our church didn't have to shift the time because we always talk about it though. It was more intense. It was kind of like, yeah, we just had been building this way for a long time. So I was like, yo, let's just, you know, like what happened? I was just Tuesday. It's just more, you know what I'm saying? Like just another day. So our church didn't have a shift with them. We kept doing the work. We did, you know, we had some conversations, but we kept doing the work we were doing because I mean, again, we are a church of, you know, here in the south and as a black man and. And man, we are ethically split down the middle. We're politically split down the middle. Um, it's a lot in, and so, but God has been very gracious, but 2020 was a year. But I think what 2020 has highlighted Dave is the fact that like, you know, I think God is into this idea of, and I think the word really I've been getting is this idea of really empowerment. And, you know, I always tell people whenever, whenever God's up to something, there's always a demonic counter ever, whenever it happens. That's right. There's always a, you know, it's, you know, when we, you know, I think right now, so people are equity and equality and those words, people article, you know, they're, they're arguing about critical race theory and all those things are fine. But at the end of the day, at the root of it all it's power. Um, it's all about power. See racial division. It's not about power. It's just the way we divided up, who gets power, who doesn't gender equality, but who gets power? Who does it? And see that's the root of the thing, because see, in the beginning, what do you remember? I went through about Genesis one 28. God said he gave human beings power. You think of Genesis two. God literally took his power. Adam had no life in him. And he breathed life. He gave Adam power. And so what was Adam supposed to do with the power in life? Go give it away. That's why you see what Genesis. Jesus was really obscure scripture when Jesus was his disciples, it says, Jesus breathed on them. You know, it's like what the disciples you're like, what in the world? Like what was going on there again, this referencing back to Genesis two, where he's breathing in life, on them to go give it away and see that as the key, when it comes as whole thing, they've realized like, Everybody asks me this question all the time. How, you know, I want to, you know, this current moment I get a lot of people call me, how do we build diverse spaces? You will have diversity and inclusion, all this stuff at the level. You're willing to give power away, nothing more, nothing less, because that's what it comes down to. And I think that's what God's highlighting. I think he's highlighting where unfortunately, our country we've hoarded power in a lot of ways. And so either we can choose to give it away or God, or just break it up. And I think that's, what's kind of happened. I think that's what you hear. You hear the cry of people of color right now saying no, no, no, we don't want any more diversity councils. We don't want any more, you know, scholarship checks like, no, no, no, no. We won't see to the table because when you have seats at the table, you have power, power changes, things, change structures. And so that's where I feel like it is. And that's kind of what it's highlighted.

David: 25:32

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Um, how has that played out in, in your church? I mean, I know this is a lot here. I'm even somewhat, I'm somewhat nervous even to, to Wade into this conversation. Uh, but man, I, I believe it's a needed conversation. Um, I mean this year we've had just such a. Toxic concoction of politics, layered on all of that. Uh, how, how have you responded in your church as there's been disagreements or is there's been tensions and I mean, I know you said that you've been at this for a long time, but when you, when you do hit those rough patches where you there is a fence, or there is this unity in your local church, how do you navigate through that?

Adrian C: 26:25

Here's the one thing they've it's what, um, It's uh, you know, uh, somebody who I really admire was through a guy by the name of mark Sayers. He talks to this idea of being a non-anxious presence. One of the most important things we can be, and he gets that from Edward Freeman. His book failure nerve is to be a non-anxious presence. It's the fact of where or what or whatever freedom called the self different other use of self differentiated leader, someone who is able to still have empathy. But yet not go to the culture where the culture violates your values or who you are, whatever. So what I try to be is be a sub differentiated leader. I try to be a non-anxious presence. So what do I do as this at the end of the day? Um, I say this very clear in our church. I'm very clear on this. If you walk away from this church and community based off of politics, that is your God, nothing more, nothing less. you aren't willing to have a conversation with someone. Because you were thinking you and you want to talk to me about the gospel. I literally will say to you, when you actually started living basic Christianity, then we can talk because basic Christianity, they was mean you have an issue, Matthew 18, let's go talk to each other. See, that's the thing we're talking about. Like they supposed to be real. We talk about critical race theory. We came to basic Christianity. We're always talking about critical race. I'm like, dude, can you actually go talk? Because you know what I realized when you asked to go talk to someone, a lot of that energy dies down. You don't stand behind the keyboard. You know what I'm saying? You know, when, when, when, uh, you know, when, you know, when Eagle freedom, 74, you know, wants to like to read that. So, you know, it's like, you know, he's got a lot of energy. You sit in his face there front, and that's why I tried to tell people. So you asked me, man, we get people in the room and we have real conversations. And when we have real conversations, what we do is this, we like realize, no, that's a human being. That's an image bearer of God. So, you know, I tell people all the time, if you don't realize it as a black man, you know why like, you know, who I'm longing for. And I've seen it happen in our church is people who are, um, you know, who may be white nationalists coming to faith. I see what happened in our church, but why do I pack it? Because Paul was a Jewish asset. Paul Lynn was a Jewish nationalist. And can you think about that? They'd positive Jewish nationalists gets a hold of God. We don't hear for Paul for like 10 years. And the first time they call Paul and we'll help is the church. Antioch was the multi-ethnic church. That's literally like Jim Bob in the, by you. And they go find him in to buy you and said, Hey. Come to Miami and pastor this church. Right. You know what I'm saying? Because that's like, literally how much is life change? And that's the gospel. Literally the sending center in the new Testament was a multi-ethnic congregation, 19 different ethnicities, pastored by the Jewish nationalists. And it's like, and then you talk to me about like, well, I don't know how we can walk together. I'm like, you don't read your Bible. But you just don't. And here's the other thing too. I talked to people about Dave, you just like this, the thing to serve Jesus, it's hard. And you're going to suffer. I don't understand when we read the Bible, like, what did we read? Like human beings, suck. I suck. We were terrible at times. So you're going to have issues, but when I've made the commitment, that was like, but I'm not listen at the end of the day, those are image bearers of God. So I don't care what none of them mean that made me, I can totally disagree with you, but I don't have to demean you. I don't have to strip you as an image bearer. So that's why I remind our people all the time. We are image bearers of God. And that's how you have to view someone when you start losing them as an image, Bayer, when you start pulling them down, you have to pull them to a level because that's what happens. The weight. When you start having to demean people, that's your way of stripping them from being image bearers. Because if you don't do that, you can't treat someone that way. And so that's what we do. And so that's why I'd get our church always remind me. And when I do that, most of the times, you know, it's just so big in our culture. I think there are people walk away, you know? So some people I'm not black enough for some people I'm, you know, I'm too, I'm too militant, but that's okay. I don't allow that. As long as those around me are elders and those people who are my friends in my life, as long as they feel like, Hey man, I have a good tension and balance on it. That's all that matters because I won't give an account to them when I die. I'll give an account to God for my life. And so kind of it. So, yeah.

David: 30:34

man. That's, that's so good. Uh, I felt like that, that was just a great word. Hey man, I appreciate you sharing your perspective on that and, and just, you know, really, it sounds like a lot of balance, um, in a, in a time where it seems like there's not a lot of balance. There's a lot of polarization going on.

Adrian C: 30:51

Yeah. And let me say this. Here's why it's fear and anxiety, fear and anxiety caused you to be experts of everybody else. I told her church all the time being an expert herself because when you become an expert, you know everybody. So I here's how I do my fear. Anxiety. If all of a sudden you say something, you post, whatever Dave, you could. I know you, I know that your life work they'd, you could post something on man. Let's say on man, something we both agree on and the idea of, of a man fighting for life in the womb. Well, because that's been so politicized, you could post some about that. Anxiety and fear will drive. Someone's like racist, white supremacists. You're like fam like, are you kidding me? But you're not me. Cause my anxiety makes me an expert of view versus being like, no, no, no, no. When you're and that's what Jesus was. He watched Jesus, she was amazing at this. He never let people's anxiety dictate his life. You know what I mean? Like they were like, you know, if you're really this, do this. You know, uh, you know, you are, you know, your castle spirit out because you are the devil and it's like, and Jesus is like, yeah, okay. Like why wouldn't, you know, like he was like ratchet and be like, well, why would the devil cast his own stuff? You know? Like he just was such as brilliant because he's a non-anxious presence. And so I tell people in this current hour living in, it's going to take empathy, Dave, but it's also going to take toughness. To where you're going to have to lean in and to listen, find common ground, but then also stand for truth. And you know, this they've standing for truth. Doesn't mean I have to yell it. I just don't move from it. I don't have to yell it, but see for us, we ha we start screaming and yelling and you're wrong. And you're, and I'm like, where does that go know they, where does that go? When you walk into a world and the first thing you call somebody, you call them a white supremacist. Or are you walking remote, man, you're a Marxist left this. Where do you go from there? If you come, if you come out with that, you're not trying to reconcile people. You're just trying to air somebody out. And so that's what we're living in right now. And unfortunately the church, and I'll say this as strongly, the church has done it. A lot of the church, you know, sometimes we're like, oh, the church a lot, the church in north America. Is anxiety and fear-driven not faith-driven. And so what we're doing, we have fallen to the, to the current of politics and all these things. And unfortunately we should be the ones who are beacon of hope and light to the world right now. And we're not, we're no different and I believe God's disgusted with it. And he's looking for churches. That doesn't mean a church has to be multi-ethnic. It just has to be a church. They know we're going to live out this thing, you know, we're going to live this out and we're going to fight for this. That's why I love people and places and churches, friends of mine who are, and predominantly 99% white area speaking out about justice because it does them. No good, but it's a kingdom thing, regardless if it does not impact people showing up to their church. And so that's kind of how it works. So anyway,

David: 33:44

man. That's a, that's a great word. Great challenge. Um, appreciate you sharing your heart on that and your perspective. Super valuable. Just again, speaking to the broader landscape of, of kind of church in the United States, specifically, uh, 20, 21. When you look at that. Yeah. What are you, you know, you share some concerns and you feel free to speak to that. I'm, I'm interested to know what are you most concerned about on the one hand and, and, uh, conversely, what are you most hopeful about?

Adrian C: 34:12

Oh, I'm so let me start with this. Cause I am, you know, me, you know, me and new days where we connect with Kendra spirits and the fact that like the melancholy side, like, you know, that's why I reformed theology ministers to my soul. Mike, we all suck. Like, you know, it's like, I get that. I get that part of the gospel all day. Right. But I am getting better at like, here's the hopeful, the hopeful side of me. Is they, the world is changing. Technology has changed. COVID hasn't been an accelerator. If you look at it from, you know, um, Prior to COVID 11% of online and this'll get to a point of the church. 11% of stuff was gone online, marketing online like sales, right. Commerce is jumped in the last, uh, like six months has jumped up 28%, right? It was 11%. Took 10 years to get to a leverage. Within eight months is jumping 28%. We've thought 10 years worth of growth Dave in eight months. So here's happens, but think about this, but we saw 10 years worth of, you know, what happened that accelerator happened at people's marriages. Stuff that wouldn't have shown up for 10 years. Nash showed up this year. That's why you're seeing the divorce rate. That's why you're seeing suicide at a high rate. That's why you're seeing, you know, abuse. You're seeing a lot of stuff happened. Also technology has sped up things that weren't going to be here for 10 years are now here now. You know, they talked about flying cars as crazy as that sounds like the Jetsons right. Coming. They're like, oh yeah. 10 years from now, literally in California. I think, I think right at the beginning of the year, there's like three different companies vying for, I don't know if it's not so much patents, but the ability to start testing this in California. Well, that was gonna be 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you've heard, you're seeing NFTs, non fungible tokens. We see cryptocurrency Bitcoin, all those things. The world is speeding up. Auditing rally Burt's rally. Here's why I say that. The world is going to have more and more access to be disconnected. It'd be disconnect for people. The church has the greatest opportunity to actually connect people because see, the thing that's always made the search distinct was this community. It was this community. The church was always the place that you remember again. But when first we remember Andy, I'm going back to Paul. The first time they call them Christians, because all these different people from different walks of life, different ethnic backgrounds, different socioeconomic classes walk together like, oh, you're acting just like that, man named Jesus. This is one of the greatest hours I believe coming up for the church. But it is going to be incredibly disruptive and most people, they were going to want to go back to what it was. Let's go back and let me tell you this, you cannot recapture former glory. I believe we are. It'll be for those who are willing to hold to the message of Jesus, the gospel that is never changing. That is something you hold tightly. We never let go, but the form we hold very loose. And I think if the church is willing to begin to be creative, Begin to think they've only listened. Virtual reality is coming. I don't care, whatever you want to think about it. It is, it is at our doorstep. So here's the thing. How are we going to innovate to go reach people in that world? How are we going to, you know, in this very divided nation, once everybody gets whatever, how are we going to begin to like, to get people connected? When people go to this progressive secular mindset and they go to the far ends of it and realize that this utopian world you're trying to float through don't exist. Who's going to be there to bring them like, Hey, there's something that actually there is parts of the gospel and what you're trying to do, but this is really what it's about. You know what I'm saying? When people try to go to this capitalistic, you know, far right. Republican type of thing, and it goes to the end of it because both of them lead to literally radical individualism. That's all, they both lead to. But how are they going to build community? The church has such an opportunity. So I'm actually as crazy as this sounds. Is it going to be tough? Yes. It's going to get harder. A hundred percent is about to be a really different world, but I am really hopeful because through these times, when God's always moved, you study church history, it was like, it's always this, this is what he's done. He is literally in the stoning of Stephen. He is living separated church. He scattered it. He made pastors like myself realize like, oh, you look cute. Your little Sunday, gatherings are cute. You got a lot of people showing up. And then now all of a sudden pandemic hits. You're like, man, what happened? All the people. Right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, and then here's the thing. It was funny. And I'm sorry I could go on these different rabbit trails. It was really funny. He's always like man online. I don't know if that counts. So the, you know, cause they've got a butts in seats. So the person who sat in the back row for two years, who never filled out a connect card, who never got into anything they count, but the person who just sitting online, watching, doing the same thing. No, they don't count though. Cause they're not in the build. I'm like, dude, come on. Like this is it both SWAT. If they're in the building, it makes us feel better. And, um, now hear me in this. I'm not saying that people, physical church is super important, but I just think we have to think differently because this is where the world is going. So I say that David, I am full of hope and the church is literally, it's always God's answer. It's his answers like, you know, bill Hybels once said, where are your thoughts about how it was he may? So he said something great. The local church, the local church went to the hope of the world. And I just firmly believe that.

David: 39:04

Yeah, I definitely value the local church and I know churches all over the world over the past. 12 to 15 months have had to adapt much more quickly than ever before. And, uh, so yeah, that's great. I love the perspective and the hope just coming out of, uh, hopefully coming out. I say, coming out as we're recording this may of 2021, um, I'm very hopeful that we're, moving in a positive direction, you know, with, uh, with the

Adrian C: 39:31

It's been there, especially I'm in Philly, Dave, I'm down here in Florida, baby. They ate Kobe, Kobe, Kobe protocols, like European traffic laws, man, just a loose adjusters for us down here in Florida. We won

David: 39:43

COVID COVID left Florida. July of 2020. I mean, you

Adrian C: 39:46

all. It was all.

David: 39:47

COVID free a year and a half

Adrian C: 39:48

Uh, we were, I don't know what you're on. The rest of y'all are doing, you know what I'm saying? You know, Kobe, Kobe being gone, you know what I'm saying? That's a push of the progressive left. You know what I'm saying?

David: 39:58

Too

Adrian C: 39:59

man.

David: 40:00

Well, Adrian, this has been a lot of fun, bro. Just so grateful for you, your leadership. You're just what God has done in your life and what he continues to do through your life. Uh, man. I just, just really appreciate your time today. So thanks for giving of yourself, giving of your heart, to invest into college students and college ministry leaders through this podcast. Just really appreciate it.

Adrian C: 40:22

Yeah, man, I appreciate you having me. And I appreciate all the hard work you're doing and my encouragement to all you campus ministers out there, people listening. Listen, I love you guys. You're on the front lines. I mean, you're on the front lines. You are, you know, campus ministers right now. I mean, you guys are. And literally you are a, you know, if it's like Helm's deep, you are literally at the front line of alums at the battle. And so I want to encourage you that, but it is an incredible opportunity for you. Campus ministries are out there. I would encourage you too. Ma'am be faithful. You got 20 people, 30 people, 40 people, 10 people be faithful to those people because again, What you need to know is as you're doing that, God will just, I mean, he will bless it. And more people come to faith. I believe, man, there's going to be a harvest. I do believe there is a revival really going to happen. Um, it will not look like, I think how we think it's going to look, but there is a revival. And so campus ministers, you are on the front end. And I just want to encourage you to continue to say, encourage, get connected local church, keep doing your work because God's God is going to move in our next generations. I love it. Everybody talks about gen Z and millennials. I love them. I love them. You know, my generation gen X and baby boomers down in here, Dave, is that they always talk about them and we do, why do we talk the way we, we crap on my generation? I'm like, we're the ones who developed them with their soft is because we are like, you know, it's like making a cake and then you blame the cake for not being good. You're like you made the cake, you know what I'm saying? And so I actually believe the generation's phenomenal. And so I'm super hopeful. I'm super hopeful for this generation coming up.

David: 41:55

That's great, man. Yeah, me, me as well. I'm excited for what God is going to do. I think that God has been doing a deeper work and a lot of people that it hasn't been, hasn't been seen. I think about, uh, up here in the Philly area, Adrian, we have something called winter, uh, unlike in Florida and in winter, all the leaves fall off the trees and it really looks like the trees are dead, but lo and behold spring comes. And you discover, Nope, those trees aren't dead. In fact, they start sprouting leaves and everything starts growing so much more quickly. I really think that that's what we're about to experience over this next year, that God has been doing something. Now. Now some, some things may have looked good and maybe they are dead, but I believe that a lot of things that have looked dead have in fact, Ben more dormant. And in fact, God has been causing his church to take the roots down deeper and to just, just go into him, not go under the circumstances, but, but really to go down deep into Christ that we would have the strength and the nutrients that we need to really thrive in the years I had. So

Adrian C: 42:56

I agree. I agree. I agree, Dave. Thanks for all your hard work, man.

David: 43:00

love you brother. Thank you.

Adrian C: 43:02

I love you.