Best Practices for Starting and Running a College Ministry Internship Program with Clayton Bullion

In this episode, Clayton Bullion, co-founder of the Campus Multiplication Network, shares how his ministry at Tarleton State University developed an internship program to serve as a key step in their discipleship and leadership development pipeline. See show notes with additional episode resource links here. 

Transcript

David 0:40

Well, welcome back for another episode of the college faith in leadership podcast. And I've got my good friend Clayton bully in here. Clayton, how are you doing?

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 0:50

Dave. I'm doing great, man. Thanks for having me on the show.

David 0:53

Man. Well, super fun. I'm excited for our conversation today. We're going to be talking about college ministry, internships, best practices for how to create those, how to manage those. Uh, but Clayton, I I'd love to just hear a little bit more from you. If you could just share an introduction about yourself and just some of the things that you've had the opportunity to do in the world of collegiate mentors.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 1:18

Yeah. Um, first of all, I really do mean that. And thanks for having me, I'm getting to talk with, he's always been a lot of fun. Um, and your insight, it's just been really great. Um, I got into college ministry by accident. Um, I was looking for a job and I wore down some folks and they said, well, it can't get any worse. Let's do Clayton, a try. Um, it's all gone a local campus with Texas Baptist student ministry for about 10 years. Um, and then just recently trying to transitioned into kind of a seed, a seed, it kind of our state leadership here in Texas. And so, um, BSM is about. It's a movement administry on about 120, 130 emphasis in Texas. And so my role in that is that I work with our internship program. We've got about 60 interns spread out across the state and then working with our new staff development. Um, and then I get to do some, some multiplication kind of catalytic partnership stuff, which means I get to partner with people like every campus and some of our partners in the Northwest and various parts across the nation. And the nations. Um, and then I get to work with caps, multiplication network kind of lead that of coaching training cohort that we've, we're just starting our third year in that. So that's been exciting.

David 2:31

That's great. Yeah. And a quick plug for campus multiplication network Clayton. I think that's really where you and I got to know each other a little bit and,

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 2:40

Yeah.

David 2:40

just a great opportunity to, to get a little bit of coaching, to rub shoulders with collegiate ministry leaders, from some of the different organizations that are out there. And, uh, so encourage people as you're checking out this podcast to, uh, to look that up. I know. The deadline has been extended, I believe for, for this current year's, uh, registration. Is that correct? Clayton.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 3:04

That's right. So we've got to open for, for, from the time of this recording one more week. Um, and so, uh, one of the things I love Dave about CMN is that, um, a lot of times we get solid off and you know, this like you and I would have never met like the Baptist in every nation. Sometimes it's we don't go to the same conferences, um, but getting to connect with this, the different streams of ministry. Um, but only that like, What has kind of blossomed this, where we've got several countries involved. Um, this year we've got an entire cohort of practitioners from Europe that are going through it, um, east Africa and the Philippines. So there's some really fun, fun ways to kind of see college ministry and collegiate ministry on a national and international scale.

David 3:47

Yeah. Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah. I've really enjoyed the different people that I've gotten to know through. Uh, the campus multiplication network. So I love that. Um, Clayton back to internships though. Uh, I know you shared in your current role, just overseeing internships, but, uh, I know your involvement with internships. It goes, it goes back before this current role, um, to your time at Tarleton state university, when you were the campus ministry director there for the Baptist student ministry, could you talk a little bit about the beginnings of your internship program there? And some of the fruit that you saw come on.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 4:26

Yeah. So the, you know, every major life lesson we've seen seem to hold onto, it comes from a big failure somewhere, you know, it's like, oh, this is really important to me because I blew it early on. Um, and my first year we had a. Enough to support an intern and really ministry enough to support an intern. Um, we brought on a recent graduate, um, super excited. She was one of those go get her seniors. Um, and she came on staff and I was like, great. Now there's two of us. Let's do this. And I kind of treated her like a seminary grad with 10 years experience. And instead of a recent. Bachelor of education grad with no ministry experience. Um, and I totally blew it with her. Um, I didn't give her the support she needed. I didn't give her the structure. Um, I didn't give her the guidance. I was like, great, high five. I'll see you in the harvest field. Um, and that was really it. We kind of saw each other at events, um, and she just wilted.

David 5:23

Um,

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 5:25

Um, and not, not just wilted in ministry, but just also personally and emotionally in a lot of ways. Um, but also it really put a real strain on our relationship. You know, when you have a student who you bring on staff and it doesn't go well, um, you kind of, it's like you kind of lose a friend. Um, well, it's like that rule don't room. Don't room with your best friends. Kind of thing. And, uh, she just, it, it put a strain on everything and it took several years to kind of get that relationship back. And so out of that, I realized, oh, we've got to do some things differently. Um, and so as we begin to bring interns on those, a lot of, oh, we need to, not just, they're not just extra hands on the harvest field, but these are like co-laborers and people who God loves, you know, God, God, God interesting. And I have to steward them correctly, um, because I'm going to have to answer before God, how my interns, how I treat my interns and what we do, not just the product and the work they can do, but also the product and work that God does in their own hearts. Um, and so several years of figuring that things out, figuring things out and, and, um, we, we felt like we kind of got a sweet spot with some of our interns. And part of that is they, they just came really ready. It wasn't anything else. Um, but we began to see them be really key instruments. Not just multiplying our ministry app on our campus, but multiply ministry out on other campuses.

David 6:51

Yeah, that's awesome, man. And just again, having heard you talk about this in other settings, uh, some of these campus ministry planters have gone not just to nearby campuses in Texas, but they've gone to the Pacific Northwest and, and other places.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 7:08

Yes. Yes. We, we have got, um, a team in Willamette valley in Oregon that are gone through our internship. Um, so at Oregon state university of Oregon lane, community college, and a couple other places this past summer, they actually sent a missions team back to Texas to help with the Tarleton state leadership team retreat. And they just kind of did food and logistics. Um, and I had been praying for our team that was planting at Oregon state cause they're planting in the old pandemic and. Uh, students. So I knew their student students are involved cause I've been praying for that and getting the newsletters. We been having contact, you know, former interns and, uh, they, they show up and they walked in my kitchen and I called them all by me. Um, cause I knew them, but then I quickly realized that they did not know me. And now they're in my living room. I just can't believe it. You know, it just got all weepy. Um, and my wife walks in like, what's wrong with you? It's like I just said, Shelby, you know? Um, but it's really created some beautiful things in ministry. I never thought I'd get to be a part of. Um, but it started with, um, intern saying, I'll give a year, I'll give two years back and let's just see what God does. And it became kind of a catapult to launch them into some things that I'd never thought. We can, we can do as a ministry.

David 8:23

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Clayton that's fantastic. It sounds like in your experience and your findings, that this internship piece has been a significant part of your, um, kind of your campus ministry leadership development pipeline, um, would you say that's a fair assessment?

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 8:43

Oh, yeah, I would, I would say it's been the, it's been, uh, it's just been like a pipeline. It's been a. Um, because, and starting work with some, every campus movement stuff, we realized that 52% of campuses in the us that we know of have no known gospel presence. I think the thing we need to understand is everything we need for the harvest is already in. Um, you know, it's like, well, I need more workers for this harvest field while all the workers for the harvest field they're already in the harvest field, they just need to be, we need to sow the seed. We need to share the gospel. We need to make disciples. And then they come from the harvest for the. And so a lot of that is the college campus has everything. It needs to reach the college campus, but we've got to lean in and make the leaders and make the disciples. How do I make disciples and raise up new believers where they can make disciples? And then how do I teach people to be able to do this? It's not something for, for professionals. And so I think we've realized that. If this internship is creating another pillar in the foundation of what it means to just be a marketplace missionary, no matter where your, where your money comes from.

David 9:50

Absolutely. Yeah. I love that vision. And, uh, just, just for any students that may be listening to this are student leaders. I think you made just a great point there of, of why a student leader might consider. Taking some time after graduation, so I appreciate you saying that and clarifying that, um, Clayton, if you, if we could get even into the specifics though, at this point, I think that would be helpful. Uh, what are some of the things that you've learned, because coming back to that first internship experience that you recounted for us, I know it sounded like it was painful for everybody involved

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 10:23

On Wednesdays I meet with. Uh, college student weekly for discipleship. Um, and so I lead on the largest state level, but I'm also down in the trenches, dealing with students and their addictions and their struggles. I'm dealing with interns that their individual struggles. And so I'm deeply connected with two or three individuals on a very small level. Still, still saying that they level, it keeps me sane.

David 10:49

Wow, man, that sounds really wise. And, uh, so thank you for sharing that super helpful.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 10:55

oh, yeah. The so I've, I've got, um, some things that we've distilled kind of from our experience over the past six or seven years, but also with some of our, our practitioners and my, my coworkers. Um, and so I call it the lucky 13 best practices.

David 11:13

Okay.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 11:14

And it's got, it's got levels because you're, you're getting new, you're getting new staff and ministry and some ministry development, but they also need some personal, um, and emotional and training and support. Um, and so if it's good with you, I'll just kind of run through these and talk through these. And as you see things like, wait, tell me more about that then.

David 11:34

Okay.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 11:35

one of the things you want to do with your interns is you want to develop them in the ministry. You got to give them some tools. Um, and so one of the ways we do that, the first one is you have to give them ownership. Um, you know, the, the, the goal is to raise up workers for the harvest field, you know, not gardeners of the program. And so they have to have some ownership, give them something that they've got a vision for and say, Hey, would you make this better? You know, um, it can be a really scary. Um, if you, if you natural tendencies, the micromanage things, um, but giving over vision to someone and say, Hey, would you make this better? What, how could we do this? What does this look like? Um, gives them, gives them a, a feel to it, to dream and begin to think through those things and exercise some of those, those gifts calling. Um, one of the things that we have found is if we can say, Hey, this is the direction we would like to go with our freshman ministry. Uh, But, you know, help us tweak this, help us make this better. And then just hand it over and say, Hey, tell us what we can do to help you do that. Um, we have seen our freshman ministry, double and triple and, you know, it's just because, because someone had a vision and they were solely focused on it, so give them some ownership. Um, and the second one kind of goes along with that is you have to empower them. Um, If you are walking into a room as the campus ministry leader, the, the college pastor, the, the director or whatever your title is, and you're leading every meeting, um, and people see you leading every meeting, then people are gonna come. Your students are gonna come to you with questions. They're not going to go to your intern. They're not going to go to anybody else. They're going to come to you. And if you've got, if you've brought on an intern, then one of the ways you empower them is that you sit under. And say, Hey, I don't have to lead every meeting. I don't have to be teaching all the time. Um, now there's a, there's a fine line of like toss him in the deep end with no floaties and no swimming lessons. Um, and so there's this act of preparing and helping them. And we'll talk about that a little bit later. Um, but at some point you have to willingly step down and say, I want you to be front and center. Um, otherwise you're not developing leaders, you're just continuing this purpose, purpose waiting, uh, this idea of followership. Um, the third thing is you've got to let them fail, you know, and this always shows up when you talk about like a student led worship band, you know, it's like, um, I want to develop leaders, but oh, if I hear one more kid stink at this, um, how do you know, how do you develop leaders? Well, part of this is that you have to say, all right, if, if I want to develop an intern who thinks and acts like a missionary, like a, uh, a staff person, um, then I need to give them a space to lead and develop and learn how to do that. Um, you know, what does it look like to get an a plus and staff development, if it's maybe a, B or a C in quality? Um, because at the end of the day, you're trying to make disciples not well, Paula.

David 14:43

Yeah.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 14:44

Um, but also you have to go into this idea that, that they're going to mess up, you know, they're going to fail. Um, one of the beautiful things in campus ministry, um, is that a lot of times people don't see your mistakes. You know, your students may, um, but your, your boss or your pastor is not at whatever the event is, so they don't know. Um, but the truth is, is that you, you've got to create some space for your intern to mess up. And then to see you the next day and you pat them on the back and say, man, that is okay. Um, right after college, I did a college internship with my church. Um, and I had a chance to, well, I'll, I'll, I'll save you the, the embarrassing story, but I really though several things I did that quality-wise brought the whole ministry down. You know, and it's like, oh wait, did something stupid today again. Um, and there were several times where, where my college pastor just put me out front and said, it's okay. When I messed up, he said, man, you really messed up on this. And this is why you messed up. And because of that, I've learned some things. Um, we can't do helicopter supervision. Um, and then the fourth thing is, um, you, you have to give them, and this is gonna sound kind of silly, but kind of coming out of our experience, you have to give them some time off,

David 16:01

Hmm.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 16:02

um, and, and creating a rhythm. You have to teach them to run the marathon and ministry, not the sprint, um, because the fear is, I mean, the, the assumption is, well, they're, they're young. Um, sometimes they're single, you know, or they don't have to. Um, you know, they could play three games of basketball and wake up the next morning, not sore, um, where those of us that are approaching 40 can even look at a basketball without getting sore. And so it's like, well, they can run hard, they can run hard and they can run hard and I can run hard. And that's great. But the pace you set in your twenties often is the ratio on your thirties. So you have to teach a single person how to. You know, you have to teach a married couple without kids. Um, even though we all laugh because it's like, well, we have a scheduled date night. It's like, man, when you don't have kids, every night's a date night, you don't even know what you're talking about. Um, but you have to teach them these rhythms because what happens is the longer you're in life, the more baggage and people that kind of get thrown onto the rhythm. And so you have to schedule some time off when they may be raring to go. Um, and so part of that is just teaching teachers, the marathon. Um, so it's not just developing, but it's also, you've got to invest in themselves. Um, and so I think we're probably on number five, I think is probably a good one. Um, one of the things that I made a mistake of is with my intern, my first intern, and listening to have a great relationship. Uh, she was in town last weekend and hung out with our family. Um, but one of the things I didn't do with her is I didn't meet with her again. There was, there was no pastoral care. There was no coaching. Um, and especially if it's come from a ministry, that's got a large staff you think, well, you know, I'll see them at the, I'll see them at staff meeting and I'll see them at, at our worship service or on Sunday morning. Um, but what they need is focused face to face time. They need, they need coaching. They need, Hey, tell me about your family. How's life. What's going on. How's your soul. Um, they, they need that with us as the leader. They, they are hungry to hear from us as a leader. Um, not just, Hey, do this better. Or what about this? Or, Hey, go clean up the shed. But like, they, they wanna, they want us to know their hearts and they want to know. Um, and that is, can you may have a residency program or an internship program where you've got six or seven interns and you're like, there's no way I can meet with each one of these one-on-one okay. Well, is there someone else on your team that could help do that? Um, because they need to be heard. Um, they need to be heard. They need to have some focused time with you. Um, number, number, uh, I think six would be that you got to listen to. Um, and I I've realized just the older I get, um, when I'm like, Hey, this is a great t-shirt design. And they're like, oh, that looks like something my dad would wear. And I'm realizing I'm getting to the stage where I don't, I don't understand college students. It's not it's, it's like a, it's a four, it's almost, cross-cultural one, a lot of ways. And having to learn a language, I'm having to learn these different tools of communication. And I'm having to realize that. This was cool when I was younger in the eighties. So this was probably cool. Now, you know, I'm having to, having to make some cross-cultural adjustment. Um, but if you're always having to go with your idea and what you say, then the chances are the ministry is going to be a ministry for whatever your age demographic is.

David 19:35

Hmm,

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 19:36

And it's gonna be really hard to do a collegiate ministry. The older you get, if you're targeting 28 year olds or 35 year olds, Excuse me. And so if we're always listening, if we're only doing what we say, then we're going to end up being the ceiling of our ministry. One of the biggest examples, um, for me, a couple, several years ago, we were trying to talk about our leadership development and. The interns kept saying Clayton where we're meeting too often with our leaders. Like this has become stale. We've got to, we've got to shift this. We got to change this. And I was like, no, no, it'll be fine. Fine. Like this was always done. You know, how many of us have said that? Um, usually when we were young in ministry, we'd never say that. And then the older we get, we find ourselves saying that more and more. Um, I know at Cleveland got to change this. We've got to move this. We've got, we've got, we can't meet weekly. We've got to go biweekly. Um, and I thought, no, we're just not, we're not going to. And after a semester and a half of them really just bringing it up. And I finally said, okay, let's, let's try it. You know, I was like, I'm going to give you space to fail. Like I'm a good leader. Um, and it was the right decision. Leadership team retention went up, um, student buy-in, those meetings had an energy to them that we had just missed.

David 20:50

Hmm.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 20:51

Um, and so I listened to them. We changed our small group structure because of the way interns did. And we went from connecting with maybe 60 students to way more than that, because they said, Hey, this, this is not working. Can we change this? Because they were the ones thinking like a college student, but also thinking like a minister. And they were like this perfect blend of both. Um, so listen to him. Um, the next one, I would say number seven would be give them structure. Um, you know, think through, think through your interns, it's kinda like a vine they're growing, but they need, they need some lattice work. They need a trellis to kind of make this work. and you're like, no, they don't, they'll be fine. Remember COVID how fun that was. When all of a sudden our structures were completely taken out and all of a sudden we had all day to do three things. We didn't get those three things done. You know, we, all of us were begging for some sort of structure, some sort of rigid. Um, and your, and your interns need that more than ever, because this is the first time in their lives. They've had to do self leadership, you know, you didn't, you didn't hand them a syllabus when they started and said, okay, here's, here's the ministry. One-on-one the test is Tuesday, you know, cause we know the test is every single day, you know, whether or not you're up to it, um, or not up to it. And so creating some structure, maybe that's helping them with their calendar. Um, for some of your students, maybe it's helping them to find the winter. You know, cause our academic driven graduates are like, I don't want an, a, I want an, a administry, what is a administry look like? I want the 4.0 and, and you know, as well as I do, you can sit in a discipleship with a student and done everything, right. And they'd go awful. And so dealing with people with a lot different than dealing with grades and test the projects. And so sometimes the biggest structure we can give them is like, okay, this is the wind, this. Um, especially the newer, the context, if you're just planning a campus or early on in the development of a campus, um, it's okay. This is the, when this week we need you to connect with 20 students. What does it look like to be, to pass out these invitation cards every day? What does it look like through the pro walk campus? Um, but helping them develop the structure and then also giving them feedback. I think that's the thing where we may shy, shy away. Sometimes it's actually leaning in and saying, Hey, this is, this is you did this really well. This you're going to continue to grow in. And we're really excited about this. Always do this. I saw you when you did that minute. Super amazing. Um, keep that up. Don't ever do that again. Kind of thing. Um, But also think, um, one of the other, other things that you do, I would say that the next one is that you want to provide for their ministry. And, and this is kind of a tension because part of ministry, we know, we understand self-sacrifice, you know, we understand long nights, we understand those things. And sometimes that's, I'm having students over at my house and I'm cooking them dinner and that's coming from the bully and family budget, not the collegiate ministry budget. Um, But oftentimes with interns, they don't, they don't make money there or they're raising their support or, you know, they're just not, you know, their savings accounts got 23 cents in it this week. And so finding a way as a ministry or as an individual saying, Hey, I'm asking you to drive these campuses in our city. What does it look like for me to reimburse your knowledge? I'm asking you to meet with these students. Well, who's paying for that, you know, find, find a way to say, I want to, I want to help you and give you the tools to do this. Um, and whether that's reimbursements or whether that's, we've got a budget for you, um, you may look at the money and say, um, we've got, we've got enough for 10 interns, but they're going to have to pay for some stuff out of their pocket. Well, I would say. I have the money for four interns and have enough to really bless your interns and make sure they have everything they need and that give them, give them the, give them the tools, just like the emotional and the ministry tools, give them the, the fiscal tools to be able to do it as well. Um, and then the, you know, we talk about building them up, empowering them, developing them, but then there's also this list of things don't do, don't do this. The do nots, you know, um, some of us, some of us, um, are super unorganized and that's, that's, that's not necessarily a bad thing unless you let that rule you. But, um, you know, the, the campus minister, that's usually good at connecting with people and, and doing these things. Um, lots of, lots of connection, lots of students, they sometimes really stink at. You know, um, and sometimes they're like, I just need an intern to organize me. You know, I just need an intern to schedule this event to go through the list of who's coming to fall retreat. Um, and that's not a bad thing, but you've got to understand if you're hiring an intern to be your mom, then you've missed it. You know, if you're hiring an intern to make you coffee every morning, then you've missed it. Raise the money, play the lotto, Rob a bank, whatever it takes and hire a ministry assistant, not an intern. Um,

David 26:05

And clean. When I, just to clarify, when I hear you say you've missed it, you're saying like, You've missed the, the strategic benefit of, of doing this internship in the first place that, Hey, there's, there could be a potentially a place for a ministry assistant role, but let's not get that confused with a, an internship that's going to be really helping develop disciples, really cranking out leaders over the course of a year after year. Is that, is that what you're saying?

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 26:32

Oh, that's, that's exactly right, because if you've got an intern, you've got someone who can walk the college campus and look like a college student. Um, you've got someone with an energy level. That's probably infinite at higher than yours. Um, you've got someone who, who speaks student and can live on student's standard time. And so why waste that opportunity and saying, Hey, I need you to make copies of this. Spend their time and their energy and their strength and play to their. Spend that time doing evangelism, connecting with students. There's something about that stage administry where you're the near peer, you know, that is so vital to seeing a ministry, continue to move any age group can make copies any age or can organize. But there's something about that, that timeframe of the early twenties that is so potent and has such a multiplier effect.

David 27:23

Yeah, that's

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 27:24

So play it play to their strengths. Um, so don't, don't treat him like a ministry assistant. Um, I would say the other thing is don't treat him like an intern

David 27:31

Hm.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 27:31

and I know that sounds kind of strange. Um, but, but we all know, we all know there's the line it's like, well, you're the intern go clean out the shed or you're the intern. Um, you get the credit job or we're doing a 48 hour prayer tent. Who's got the two to 4:00 AM. The intern, you know, it's, it's you get the, the bottom bottom of the wrong worst thing. And I'm not saying that, um, there needs to be a pecking order. I'm not saying that, um, every once in a while, they, they shouldn't get the credit jobs, because part of it's just understanding I'm new here. I'm not the boss, so you're going to get the credit shop. You're going to stay late at the ministry event and do the social and you're going to clean up. Um, but they also need to see you doing that.

David 28:15

Uh,

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 28:17

Um, and so if, if I'm telling my, my intern, Hey, you need to stay in, clean up the mess after this, and I'm going home because I'm playing the, you know, I've got a wife and kids and I wanna put my kids to the bed card. Um, then I need to take the next one or I need to be the one who takes the early morning event. Um, and begin to say, they need to see me making sacrifices for the ministry. Um, cause they are, cause we're all serving the kingdom. And so don't treat them like an intern, but also if you treat them like an intern, your students will treat them like an intern. Um, they're already in this really awkward stage, you know, like you and I walk into a room and everybody's like, oh, which one of these is not like the other, he looked, he looked old enough to maybe be in charge, you know, an intern walked in the room and there's this question of all. I don't, I don't know if they're old enough to tell me what to do. Um, and so one of the first things I like to do with our interns is put them in charge of something and then ask them in public. Hey Warren, what are we doing for this? We're going to, what's the, what's the plan for this? Tell me what to do, and then have them boss me around. Um, and sometimes it comes a little more naturally than others. Um, but then once my students see me taking orders from them on whatever this particular thing. Then all of a sudden it's like, oh, if Clayton listens to, to Meg or Sam, then I probably need to as well. Um, so I'm treated like a ministry system. They'll treat like an intern. Um, but also, and then kind of tagging on that. Don't treat them like a student

David 29:48

Hm.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 29:49

or your students will too. Um, you've got to find places for them to, to have some authority. Um, and so I think that's why putting them in a spot where you have to listen to them is so, so, so key. Um, then I guess that's the do nots, but I would say there's just too two things to kind of wrap this up. Um, cause we have a tendency to forget this or this. I have, it tends to forget this. Um, you want to have fun? You know, one of the, one of the key, when you talk about household and oil costs and Mike Breen and building the sapling culture says that would cost your household has five different things that you do together. And that's how, you know, you know that your household or family is a, that you pray together. You're on mission together. You eat together. Um, you share everything. So there's a sharing together, but the fifth one is you played again. And some of us are naturally fun people and so fun. That just happens. We walk into a room, it's fine. Um, I've known some of those people. I love them. Um, and some of us are, are no, no. The mission comes first. You know, all of the is going to be a big party. We're going to, we're going to bust our butts, told that the big party. So get in line, let's get this done. Um, and so if you're that kind of person, I would, I would say one finds you a fun coat. Um, or someone who is fun and say, Hey, help me do this. But also it's okay to go into a staff meeting, you know, once a month and be like, man, God, let's go get breakfast or, Hey, let's skip this and let's go watch a movie. Um, find ways to have fun, find ways to play together, you know, um, know your staff well enough where you can make fun of their laugh and they can make fun.

David 31:35

I love that.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 31:36

Um, have scheduled and swap spontaneous pumps with them. Um, and then the last thing is, um, don't forget to invite them into, to serving a lifetime. You know, one of the things we tell our interns is, Hey, I would love for you to pray about giving a year and then pray about giving a lifetime. Um, and that is. I mean, Dave, you know, like none of us, even if we were called the ministry in high school, none of us landed on the college campus thinking college mission was a calling. We didn't even know that was a thing. You know? Um, all of us had this moment where someone looked at us and said, Dave, I see in you these characteristics, what would it look like for you to give a gift some time serving? What would it look like? Maybe could, could this be God calling you to the ministry? They're all specifically this campus. And all of us had a moment where someone invited us in. Um, some of us are really timid about stepping in and asking people to change their plans. Um, and I think that's, I think that's a good thing, but also realize that that ultimately God's the one who chooses and calls people to different things. So by me, asking a pre-med student to consider giving a year or coming on the college campus, because we're seeing ministry happening in their life. Um, that's not me trying to mess with their life. That's not me being facetious because ultimately God's going to call them. And if they say, no, I know I'm supposed to go to medical school and it's like, great. How do we train you? Be the best God centered gospel sharing doctor. But also they probably never thought about it until we've brought it up. So asked them to give a laptop. So.

David 33:21

Well, bro, thanks for sharing that list. Yeah. When you started sharing them, like, Hey, I'm just going to be quiet and get out of the way and let you go through the list. Um, man, that's fantastic. And I, I know you've, you've written about this and I'll be sure in the show notes to link to the article that you've written for campus ministry today, in which you have this list kind of a written form. But man, super helpful. Uh, I know when I first heard you talk about this, uh, man, just, I was, I was furiously taking notes and uh, in fact, our, our local ministry here that I serve with in the Philadelphia area with every nation, uh, we're, we're trying to put together, uh, an internship pathway for the first time ever. And, uh, I'm really thinking this through in my own context, how to make it great. Uh, I'm pretty sure I've heard you share. And maybe this will clarify some of your earlier points you were talking about. Uh, just the things not to do have not to have them, um, not to treat them like interns, not to treat them like students. And I think kind of implicit in that is, uh, as I understand it in your mind, an internship is not something that, uh, that someone does while they're a student that it's really a distinctive thing after graduation is that.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 34:34

Yes. Yes. And, and there's, I think there's good reasons. And I understand why churches and ministries, you know, bring on a student intern and not, and I'm not, I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing. Context, no context is everything. Um, but one of the things that in where we are and who we are, we realized, yes. That if we, if we begin paying students to do things, um, then we have a harder time with student leadership buy-in um, and the, the level of student leader is you reach a cap because then they're like, well, I'm doing the same amount as is Joe. And he's an intern. How come I'm not getting paid, um, or becomes a goal that people are striving for. And so you see obedience happening. So that we'll hope it's my junior year. I'm going to do all these things. And so hopefully I can get the internship my senior year. Um, and so we have found that it, it strengthens our student leadership to say, no, we're all, we're all student leaders, we're all working, trying to figure out the part-time job thing. We're all trying to figure out this class thing. Um, and then be able to invite students after they graduated. Onto leadership as a, as an intern on staff, as an intern. Um, and it, and it seems crazy, you know, and, and, and I'm okay with that. Yeah. Um, but you know, oftentimes you can tell, tell how strong your calling is by what you're willing to give up, to see it. Um, and so for a recent graduate, with a degree in engineering to say, Hey, I'm willing to give a year to see what the word does, or I'm willing to give up the. Um, job opportunity. Um, and we've seen, we've had interns throughout, throughout our states that have said, I know that I'm called to be a lawyer. I'm called to be a doctor. Um, but I feel like God's asking me to give back a year, um, and they've done it. And then they've gone on and gotten in med school. They've gone into the veterinary school. One of our interns who started in the spring is going to miss a day of intern training. Cause she's going to. Go to veterinary school interview day. Um, but she's, she's going to do an internship and then shoot a vet school, which is really hard to get in. Um, but you can, you can kind of, so it kind of helps also weed out those that are just looking for a part-time job and looking for just something to pay the bills.

David 36:56

Yeah. Clayton. This is super helpful. Uh, I think. Everyone that listens to this is going to be really helped by that what you shared here and your experiences. And that's one of the things I love about connecting with other leaders like yourself is that, uh, you know, I don't want to learn every painful lesson myself. Like I'd love to learn from other people's pain and, uh, as well as successes to be able to apply that to my own life, to my own ministry. Um, a couple other questions for you though, as, as we, you know, get close to the end of our time. Just to dig into some specifics, uh, Clayton, I'm just wondering, you know, as far as the number of interns and you talked about this a little bit, as you were sharing those points of, of really, it sounds like it's better in your thinking to have a fewer number of interns that you're resourcing well, that you're, uh, connecting with spending time with and just, you know, better. I think you said better, you know, two than five or six, if you're, you're really focusing. Anything more, you would say about that as far as just optimal number. And I'm guessing that would vary context to context based off of the size of the ministry. But I do think about just the complexity of a ministry. Uh, you know, you've got these different categories, you've got staff, you've got student leaders and then you're really adding a whole nother category here. To manage, um, you know, not just the, you know, the, the

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 38:19

Yeah.

David 38:19

that are involved in that, but just the whole structures and just making it go well, For ministries that have just, that are just starting an internship program. What's your recommendation is your recommendation. Hey, just start with one or two and see how it goes or is it, Hey, build out a whole plan and, and, you know, as long as you have staff to oversee those interns, that, that it's fine to kind of launch a bigger sort of an internship program. Um, what would be your advice along those lines to somebody that's just wanting to get.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 38:53

Yeah. Oh, that's good. Um, and every context is different. My one thing I would say is, uh, just do it, just get it started. Um, if you. If you're waiting to get the entire structure built before you start the OnStar onboarding interns, um, you're never going to get there. Um, the task is too great. The need is too great for you to wait to get all your ducks in a row before you start. Um, you know, we, we laugh about, well, we're out here, we're building a plane while we're flying it. Um, and so I would say just, just start. Um, but also if that's where you're at, I would say start small because nothing's worse for an internship program for you to botch it with your first one, you know, and then their experience is bad because your best recruiters for your internship program are the current interns. If they're, if they're stressed out and they're emotionally spent and they're wrestling with that, or this students are going to see that. And it's and they, and they may tow the line really well and say, well, I love this program and you guys should do it too. Um, but outside of that conversation, they're just miserable. Your students are going to see that. And they're like, I don't want to sign up to be miserable for 10 months. I've already went through organic chemistry. I don't want to have to go through this again. Um, and so I would say start small and make sure that you do it well. Um, but I would also say. you to bring on interns is going to cost you something. Um, it's going to cost, it's going to cost Tom on the front lines. If, if you're the director, because you're going to need to take a step back and say, no, I'm going to invest in these few so we can multiply. And so you're going to have to take a step back and start thinking multiplication that of addition. Um, and so it may look like I'm not the one who's going to reach this people group on campus, but I get to sit with the person. Pray over and speak into the life of the person who's going to reach this people on campus. Um, over the past several years, how I've met with our interns is, is shifted. Um, there was a season where I had some really great tenured associate directors. Um, and so they met with. Are our interns one-on-one and I met every single week with all of them together and we just did some fun things and talk through some leadership principles. Um, and then I would try to connect with each one of their discipleship or mentorship was coming from other. Um, so we tried that and parts of that went really well and next year it didn't really go really well. So we shifted it back up. Um, and so part of it is just being, they need to be met with the need to be connected with the need to be invested in by somebody intentionally, but also they need to have access to you as the leader. but one of the things I will say on the flip side of that is as you bring on interns, you're going to feel as you can think of it, like as a, as a stair-step pyramid, uh, As you add another layer, that means that you move further from the front line. So one of the things I realized is the more staff I brought on, the more I felt like I was just managing a team instead of actually doing. And so I had to find a way to say, okay, I'm doing the, the big vision picture. This is where we're headed. We're doing our multiple campuses, but then also said, all right, now, how do I make. With an intern individually on the smallest level. How do I meet with the south ship? How do I do lead a small group? Um, never get, never get too big in your thinking in your ministry. We were out not also doing the smallest building block.

David 42:46

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. Spent some time with you and hear from you today.

Clayton Bullion (take 2) 42:51

Awesome. Thanks for having me, man.