David Worcester on Becoming a Better Preacher and His Thoughts on Growing Up in a Ministry-Focused Family

In this episode, David and I talk about what his upbringing was like as a church planter's kid and what things he things his parents did well that helped to nurture faith in Jesus in his life, instead of the kind of bitterness that, sadly, one often sees in the lives of pastor's kids. 

David also shares about his journey from college minister to church planter and numerous actionable insights and principles from his personal journey to develop into a better preacher and communicator.

Please see the episode webpage here for photos and resources related to this episode.

Transcript

David: 0:40

All right. Well, I am here with David Wooster, David, so good to have you on the podcast today, RO well, this is fun. Uh, I know you and I enjoyed some time together in person. Uh, over, uh, I guess about five, six months ago, riding together in a rental car at a college ministry conference in Nashville. So that was, that was a lot of fun, man. But, uh, for those that may not know you, you are the lead pastor and church planter of compass church in San Diego, California. And, uh, David, I know your, your, your brother, Paul is also a kind of a influential person in the world of collegiate ministry. I know he's somebody that, uh, I have appreciated getting to know as well. Um, David, anything else of interest that you, you think you might like to say as a word of introduction to the audience?

David W: 1:33

Uh, yeah, so I, you, you know, uh, yeah, my twin brother, Paul, I I'm married. I have three young boys, um, and Samuel, Joshua and Nathan. And so I keep myself busy and. I'm also an avid surfer. So I, I try to go at least once a week and

David: 1:53

come on.

David W: 1:54

that's pretty fun. I'm actually my wife limits it. I would go more, but it's just the season that I'm in. I try to, you know, I can't serve every time. It's good. But, uh, um, so that's, that's my, my main hobby other than, but we actually recently started playing volleyball, beach volleyball together, me and my life. And so, uh, that's been pretty fun.

David: 2:11

Okay, man. That's awesome. That's awesome. Uh, so does your wife surf at all or is that with the volleyball? Was that sort of the compromise to do something together?

David W: 2:20

Yeah, that's me. That's her main thing. I mean, she does, but she's like, uh, I call him like a warm water surfer. So it's like only when there's one water perfect conditions. Um, but, um, you know, I'm there whenever I can, I don't care. I'll put the wetsuit on and go. So.

David: 2:36

That's awesome. That's awesome. Or, man, I love it. Well, bro. Yeah, I know we're going to talk today about a few things and I'm excited just for you to share some of your insights, particularly on developing and preaching and as a communicator of God's word, uh, you've recently created some helpful resources in that space that we can also link to and share, and, uh, really your, your family. It really is. Pretty cool legacy as well. Would you mind, as we get started sharing a little bit about your family background in ministry and, uh, just some of the things that brought you even to your current assignment and current minister.

David W: 3:14

Yeah. So I grew up in a church planting home, so we moved around a lot and it was just one night when I. I, my twin brother, Paul was out of bed. And so naturally I had to see why he was getting out of sleep. And so I walked into the living room and my dad was explaining the gospel to him. And that night we both prayed to receive Christ for the first time. So we not only do we have the same physical birthday, we have the same spiritual birthday. And then, uh, yeah, it's funny. We were both baptized when we were 12 years old. And so it's just funny, um, twins in every way. We were roommates in college roommates before that. But, uh, my, my parents kind of, they really modeled what it looked like to seek God's kingdom first. And I think that's one of the powerful things being a part. So anyone who's listening, if you are, if you, if you are parenting and you do have kids, like one of the best things that you can do is sacrifice for the kingdom of God. Like moving somewhere else, doing something you showing them that you're kind of what we saw lived out was that promise that Jesus gave that anyone. To leave father and mother or houses or children for my sake, you know, we'll get a hundred times more. Like, I believe that all four of, uh, uh, sons of my parents are all in ministry in some fascinating we're all. And most of them were actually all, pretty much all of us are doing college visits and so they must have done something. Right. You know? And, uh, but I just see that they w one thing they genuinely like. And, um, the other thing was say, they've modeled again. They modeled for us what they were teaching. So they, they lived what they taught. But I think those two things are things that, um, really made an impact. And so, but you know, like most people in high school, I was just kind of a job. I was selfish, insecure. I was obsessed with what others thought of me go to testing. And, but then the one reason I'm passionate about college ministry is college was a time that God really got ahold of me to go all in kind of in every area of my life. And so, but I think that's one of the things about college is that people are starting over searching for their identity. And so I have suddenly like, you know, no one cares how good it forced you out. When you get to college, you don't wear your leather jacket, your freshman year. anyway, my Paul and I, we convinced a long-term director, max Barnett to mentor us at OU Oklahoma university was where we went. And he, as a campus ministry led to end. I hope that you can get him him on actually, um, on here at some point, but he had at the first verse, he had a few memorize first Corinthians, 10 31, it says, so whether you eat or drink or whatever you do do it often glory of God.

David: 6:06

Hmm.

David W: 6:07

And I just began to realize that my life is not about me. That my story is actually for God's glory. And, and we started a Bible study in the dorm, Paul and I, we called it the spot. And so we thought that was cool for some reason, but, um, we thought we thought some exciting things happen. You know, that a lot of guys on our hall of fame, we would annoy people knock on their door almost every day. And every time we had the Bible study and then we would, we had community bathrooms, you know, back in the day and we actually put the postings on the inside of the stalls so that when they go into the bathroom, they would have to look at our posts they're from the Bible study. So anyway, uh,

David: 6:45

even, even as a college

David W: 6:47

so we were invested. Yeah. Um, but I think it's, that's just part of it. Um, and then investment. Yeah. At a conference, my mentor max is speaking and he talks about California specifically had a one out of every seven colleges to. Go to school in California and how you ministries at the time in our network were out there. So that kind of just planted, planted a seed for me. When I graduated, I felt like maybe God will call us to start a campus ministry. And at the time Paul and I were like, okay, maybe like one of us will be the pastor. One of us will be the campus minister didn't work out. We were on different campuses, but now we're kind of doing, we're still doing the same thing. Um, so yeah, long story short, I went on staff with ODU BPM for two years, and then 11 years ago I packed up all my belongings in a Nissan Pathfinder drove across from Oklahoma to California. We didn't, I didn't have AC the driving through the Mojave desert. Literally we stopped at a gas station, so my shirt and then

David: 7:43

Wow.

David W: 7:44

it in like five minutes. Um, but anyway, like we started a challenge at San Diego state. It's kind of like the BCM on the west coast. That's what they call it, but that's just. And then four years ago, I passed that off to, uh, one of the guys that we raised up through that ministry. And then I started the process of planting a multi-generational college focused church here in San Diego called compensates. And so, um, the vision for that is we were kinda overlooking San Diego and we saw San Diego is a military town with a bunch of military bases and. We thought, what if our church is like a spiritual military base where not only do we reach people, but we train them up and we send them out all over the world to make disciples. And so we have a service it's close to campus. Students it's close enough for students to walk, but then we also have an on-campus ministry. And then we have a good mix of young adults, young families, and then other people who are part of our chairs. And so it's a lot of fun. I really enjoy what we're doing.

David: 8:49

Very cool, man. That's just a great story. I love the vision. Uh, and in fact, San Diego, now, you and I were talking just for a couple of minutes before we hit record and certainly have a love for San Diego. Been out there numerous times. My wife grew up there and so beautiful place to be as well. Uh, David. You were not from California. I, for some reason I had it in my head that you were, you grew up in California or where were you at? Prior to going to college in Oklahoma.

David W: 9:19

Yeah. So like, like I said, my dad started churches to start, what's called like a serial sex planter, you know, basically so on. And I've got to be there two years and then move somewhere else. So we're in orange county and then Northern California. And then we moved to Moscow Ressa for

David: 9:35

Uh,

David W: 9:36

and then we moved to the country of Texas and then we California, that's California. And then back.

David: 9:45

Yeah.

David W: 9:45

then when Texas was when Paul and I went to Oklahoma. And so that was kind of the progression. We moved around a lot. Um, but we claimed California just because that's where we were born and yeah, just, I liked California stuff.

David: 10:02

Yeah, man. That's great. Well, just even along the lines of the family piece, cause I love some of the stuff you were sharing even about your family history and your upbringing. And man, that's a lot of times to move. You know what I mean? All those different places. How was that for you? You mentioned. Earlier of just the impact, even that your parents' example had on you and your, your brothers and praise God for just the way that you guys are all living your lives at this point, uh, walking with Christ, serving in ministry, uh, I know just as a parent, a parent of two children, myself, uh, age seven and nine currently just, uh, that's a desire that I have is, is to raise my children well, and you know, you hear these stories on the one hand. Man people that seem like they were doing some great stuff in ministry, but come to find out their home life was a disaster, you know, and their kids are not doing well and their marriage wasn't doing well. And, and so that's, for me, that's always something that I just have in mind as a concern. And as a, as a S something I want to give attention to. But even in hearing your story, it sounds like your family was man. You were really leaning in hard, not just to ministry in a place, but moving all around, even the world, moving to Moscow, uh, moving to from California to Texas and a few other places you mentioned, uh, any thoughts on that? I mean, I know you're a parent yourself. Uh, what do you make of that? What was it just, uh, was that. No big deal taking it in stride, or do you remember feeling stress at the time in the midst of those mus? What was that like in your family dynamic and how do you think about that now on the other side, as a parent yourself,

David W: 11:43

One thing my mom always did was helped us to find the fun, wherever we moved. And so that was really helpful, you know, in Russia, we were able to play in the snow and, you know, um, Texas, we, we got really into sport and just whatever we were, we tried to be all there and really enjoy it and, you know, find the beauty of whatever place that God put us into. That's just the, you know, one of the things, but I think the biggest thing was actually moving around. We were able to develop a family unit that kept. Um, being too influenced by our peers, because actually, if you say one place often, there's a point where your peers are more influential than your parents. So that was one of the things that God's sovereignty. Like we, it kind of kept us close as a family unit where our parents were able to stay them the primary influence in our lives for longer. Um, and so if you're staying in one place, you have to be more intentional about that. But I think that one thing my dad did, the road chips are big for us. Like we would go on road trips and you had, he's like a natural coach. So he would ask us these like hard Bible questions. And then he would have the incident in his mind, but he wouldn't tell us the answer. And so it was very annoying, but it was also effective. And, and it has to say he wasn't just teaching us what to think, but how to think. And I think that's the best thing you can do as a parent. You're not just teaching them, you know, how to what what's the things, but really you're giving them the tools to sit, catch the fish for themselves. And so I think that, that's the thing that my dad did for me and my mom. And so I think that's a big factor, but then I also it's like the peer pressure. Like if one of us, like, if Paul read a book, I'd be like, I gotta read that book and we would just see it off of each other. I am sorry. And honestly, you know, there's competitive in the myth and that is going to be there too. It's sibling. Um, but I do think that that was a big factor too, of just, um, yeah, I'm not family.

David: 13:50

Those are some really good points, honestly, that I hadn't even fully thought of, of just the different impact of peer pressure. If you're staying in one place for a long period of time, versus if you're moving around and how even that nature of, of, you know, relative frequent change. Helps in some ways to create a stronger, stronger bond with the family, um, even, you know, disproportionately, so with your peers. So, I mean, that's, that's really interesting. And I, I love that too. Just being intentional to find the fun, wherever you go, like, Hey, if you're in Texas, maybe it's time to, to learn how to play football. Or if you go into Russia, Hey, get in, get into play in the snow, learn how to ski or something. So that's, that's really cool, man. Appreciate you sharing on that. I know my hope for myself and just those that I, I serve with and, and, you know, have the privilege of leading is to just, just thrive in all aspects of life, you know, in the sense of, Hey, I w family doing well and ministry doing well, not sacrificing one for the other. Uh, so man, appreciate those insights from your expense. Wait, changing gears just a little bit. Uh, you know, you are a person who is passionate about preaching, and this is an area where I'm sure you've developed some even over probably the last four years since planting this church in San Diego. What are some of the things that motivated you to even give a fresh focus to this aspect of your ministry?

David W: 15:17

Actually my brother, Paula posts me. We have a network called campus multiplication network, and it's basically a network that our vision is a big vision. Tries to do our best to work together, to start a thousand new ministries, because we ultimately have the goal that there would be no campus left without multiplying gospel presence. And, uh, we, so we have this network of leaders and then specifically Paul was like, he's got some young staff that they're trying to give talks, but either they're too busy to do a good job, or they're just kind of doing. Either that, or they're spending too much time on it and then neglecting all their other responsibilities. So I think that's one, the two as a campus minister, you are discipling people, leading Bible studies, you're selling events, you're doing different things. And so he asked me to come do a talk and we called it better talk faster. So the idea of like, um, and the keyword there is better. It's like, it doesn't matter how fast you do it. If it's not good. Um, like Paul said in second, Timothy, two 15, do your best to present yourself to God. I work in who has no need to be a chain, rightly handling the word of truth. And so we must never offer God anything less than our best, but the question becomes like, how do we do that without sacrificing the responsibilities? And even with the family stuff, like, how do we, how do we give God our best in that area, but also every area of our lives.

David: 16:43

Yeah.

David W: 16:44

Um, and so that's just because of. Um, a passion for me. And so that's, but oh, over honestly, I, I, it's something I've been passionate about for a long time. I, I think one of my first times I actually read a Dale Dale Carnegie, but it had to be a public speaker. I forget the name of it, but he just talks about how public speaking is kind of like a leverage point. It's like a fulcrum that if you invest in that, it can give you influence in like so many other areas of your life. Because if you learn how to communicate. That's just the key to the ship. And so that was just one of the things, another thing that he said in that book was if you, if you have a, an audience and you have a 30 minute presentation, you count the number of people in the audience, and that's how much time that you're spending for good, for better, for worse. So no pasture like, but, uh, I just think that's a good perspective of just seeing like the important of that. And then also just seeing. How, you know, one phrase or one sentence can change the trajectory of someone's life and how powerful that can be. And so, um, yeah, that's just a few reasons I'm passionate about preaching stuff.

David: 18:00

Yeah, man. That's that's great. Yeah. That, that point that you made about, even the impact of like you think about. You know, spending, uh, 30 minutes with one person here or there, and man, that can be impactful, but when you have the opportunity to speak to a room full of people, just, just the, you know, the exponential impact that can be had there. And, and really, I think that to your earlier point of, of taking that seriously of wanting to, uh, make that a valuable. Uh, investment into that group that, Hey, it's, it's, it's not something to be just kind of slapped together or kind of casually done in a sloppy way, but really, Hey, there's, uh, there ought to be a weight to that, that, that you bring in those kinds of group settings, uh, in a level of preparation that reflects. So as you began to lean into this sounds like not only for your personal ministry locally, but also for helping to equip some younger leaders in the area of preaching, what are some of the things that you began to uncover and what are the, some of the things that you share to help people become better in this.

David W: 19:12

Yeah. So the, the main, I think that it starts with that, that passion for preaching. Um, because I think without that, then you're just going to be, I think the past communicates so much to our. One thing we like to say is like choose passing over politics. And so that's, I think the biggest thing is you have to, and I think the way to get that passion for preaching is to, if that's been rooted in three other passions is number one, the pastor for God, and then a passionate for his word, and then a passion for people. And that's why we do our best is so we can present ourselves to God. So ultimately we're preaching to people, but we're preaching.

David: 19:56

That's good.

David W: 19:56

And so having that mentality and then the passion for the word, you know, you hear the best preachers. Um, there are people who can't get enough of the word they're people who delight in the laws of war. There are people who just, they, they, they really like feed on it and then a passion for students specifically for us. And I think for me having kids, um, on my own I'm, I'm kind of. That every student, every college student in someone's son or daughter, you think of like your, you know, your nine year old when he graduates or when he graduate high school goes to college, like he's going to be in someone's college ministry. You probably, and your hope would be that they do a great job of leading him. And, and so, you know, I think if you, and then also, if you reach one college student, you have the potential to change families. Not just that one student. And so I think they kind of see those, like the passing three passes, God, his word and people kind of like three logs on the fire. And that's what keeps your passion for preaching guns. Because honestly it doesn't impress me that much if someone's like, I'm really passionate, passionate about preaching, but what they live is like listening to themselves talk, you know, they like, you know, finding alliteration or something like that. I love that too. But. Um, I think what really connects is when people can sense that you are on fire for God, you haven't genuinely heart for God and you love his word and the people that you can, if you're doing it for the people, you're not doing it, um, to impact people. Um, one of the, one of Howard Hendricks, he says, if you want them to bleed, you have to hemorrhage.

David: 21:42

Wow.

David W: 21:44

You've probably, uh, heard, you know, everyone has a different style of preaching that make an exit slip. Some people yell, some people whisper, some people pay like a tie there. Some people like just stand at the podium, but there, but the thing that I bet you, they all have in common is they're all passionate, they all, but they're using that passing through their own personality. And so that's one of the biggest things is finding who God made you. As a preacher and not trying to become someone else. Um, and I always think about like, if you insert your favorite preacher here. Okay. So think about that guy. And then if God wanted him to preach to your students guy, would've called him. he, but he taught me, he taught me today. We want you to do it. And so again, just that, that I pat I can't emphasize that enough, that that's happened. For preaching. I think it's attributed to John Wesley. I don't think he really said it, but it says light yourself on fire with passion and people will come from miles to watch you burn. And even though he didn't say that necessarily he did live it. He was one of those people who, and there's a great story. I just, I just love, um, it was about, uh, George Whitfield. And so there's this guy who has an APS exam with David Hume. Who's this foster guy and he was running through London and someone else's. Where are you going? Why are you in such a rush? And he said, I'm going to hear George Whitfield. And his friend was shocked and he's basically like, oh, certainly you don't believe what Whitfield preaches to you. And he said, no, I don't, but he does.

David: 23:26

Wow.

David W: 23:28

And so passing can't be fake, you know, you, and you can't give what you don't have. And so you can't like why other people fire and that you use. Are burning with one. And so you can have the most amazing message in the world. And so we have the most amazing message in the world. So I just want to encourage you as a feature, just if you're listening, open yourself up to the wonders and the word and let the truth kind of sink into your soul as you're preaching. So it's kind of like the idea of like worshiping as we're preaching. It's an act of worship even as we're doing it. And so that only happens if we're. We know the message back and forth. We also know who we are as followers of Christ. Our identity with Christ is solid, and we start to forget about ourselves and the mechanics of the delivery and focus on the people and focus on God. And also Paul, he said in second Corinthians two 17, but we are not like so many peddlers of God's word, but as men have said, as commissioned by God in the sight of God, And so sincerity separates the servants from snakes.

David: 24:42

Oh,

David W: 24:43

Sincerity is the thing there's no substitute for pure motives and people can smell it. Um, and so you met with all this talk of passing. You may think I'm like anti intellectually and so intellectual, but actually I found that the people who retained pass in long-term. Are those who are most grounded in God's word, the one who actually are intellectually rigorous and Martin Lloyd Jones, he has a great book, preaching and preachers. He calls it logic on fire. So, uh, preaching if theology coming through a man on fire. And so I just love that idea of logic on fire kind of have having the, both of those. So yeah, those are some things that kind of, I think they're really helpful in that book.

David: 25:31

Yeah, man. That's some, some good stuff, David, uh, you know, I, I love so many of the points that you just made and so many kind of quotable things, but just of, of logic on fire, uh, come to think of it. I think I actually have a copy of that book, uh, you know, by Martin Lloyd Jones. I don't, I don't think I've actually read it. I don't know if I get points for just owning a copy. Probably not, but, uh, you, you might've.

David W: 25:55

Yeah.

David: 25:56

Yeah. Uh, but man, that is great. And just to your earlier point of. Uh, man, just this thing of sincerity and, and how that separates the servants from the snakes. And sadly w you know, we, we continue to hear reports and over the last year, year and a half, it just seems like there's just been a deluge of, of just news reports of, you know, famous pastors or preachers. You know, they, they were exposed in some kind of a significant way of, of not living, um, in a way that, you know, is marked by integrity. And, and so I think that's just a good reminder, even, you know, that called the sincerity, uh, of, of man being a sincere, just disciple of Jesus as a, as a person, as a minister, Hey, you're a follower of Jesus first. And, uh, and making sure that, you know, Doesn't kind of get out of alignment. And so I just love the way that you put that and just that call and that emphasis on sincerity. Uh, man, I know I want that for me. I want to finish, well, not just start. Well, you know, uh, I want to run the race in a way that may not. I get the prize ultimately, as, as Paul put it in his letter to the Corinthians. And so, so many good points there. Uh, David, I think you've done a great job so far of, of making the case for preaching, why it's important and, and really even just the heart of preaching, preaching as worship preaching as, uh, serving others, uh, any. Any more practical? Not that that's not practical. It's not what I mean, but any more particulars you could share for the person that is catching this vision and saying, man, yeah, this is what I want to do. I want to get better in this. Uh, what kind of practical steps would you give someone in that place?

David W: 27:43

That's good. Yeah. Cause if you have, you can have a burning heart, but if you don't know how to share that with others or show that to others, then it's going to get lost in translation. And so. Um, I basically what I use every week kind of my main outline is just three points, of course, because I'm a preacher three points, but, uh, the third

David: 28:04

all rhyme though? Did they rhyme?

David W: 28:05

yeah. Then, you know, they, they all, they all start with S so the first is you start, start with why start with why, and you start by asking, like why, um, why basically every person that's listening to you, they're always asking. W why should I listen? That's the first question they're asking. They're always, what's in it for me. That's really what the, what they're asking too. And so you have to hook them with, um, why they should even listen to you. And again, I think that's where authenticity comes in, where you genuinely believe this is going to change their life. They can see, they can sense the why, but you also want to literally answer that question for them because, um, there's actually a study of 2015 study. That the average attention span of a goldfish is nine seconds. But the average attention span of a 2015 adults is eight seconds. So most of the people who were talking to you, uh, you know, they, they, we knew they need help. And so within the first there's another Harvard study that said within the first 30 seconds, people asking these kind of few questions, do I like them? And do I try.

David: 29:18

Hmm.

David W: 29:19

And so everyone's kind of asking these questions, like, do you care for me? Um, do I like them? Do I trust them? And you help me? That's the other one that you want to actually figure out, you know, where your text is, what detective communicating. And then what, what question is your text app answering that people actually ask them?

David: 29:41

Hm.

David W: 29:42

And so that's, to me your title, the question. Is it that this passage is meeting because pastor Harold Bullock, he says people do what makes sense to them. And so I think the task of preaching is to help God's ways, make sense to people. And so communicating in that, in that, in that way. And that's why you always start with why. Um, and so again, kind of thinking backwards, you study your texts and you figure out, okay, what's the question is, is. And then you, you start with that, you start with the why, and then that brings people in. And so once you've established the why, then you can start with why, and then you share the what. So that was why in each of the what, and then the, what is always the word. So, you know, that's what we had. We had one job preach the word that that's what Timothy said for Paul told Timothy to do. Um, and in every season, no matter what the winds of culture are blowing. Where they're blowing. We must preach the word. I recently actually joined the John Maxwell team of coaches and speakers. And I kind of actually started somewhat to feel sorry for the people that they have to make up their own talks. Because we as preachers, we literally have an unlimited amount of resources from the word of God. Like I don't have to make up what I'm going to say. I just take it from God's word. And so. Yeah, I love the version. I love it. And one of my favorite quotes, he said, you don't have to defend a lion. All you have to do is let the lion loose and the lion will defend itself.

David: 31:23

That's a good one.

David W: 31:24

And so our job is to let the word do the work. And so our biggest goal should be to unleash the word in God in people's lives, help them to see the beauty and just. Of God's word and how it actually applies to their life. Um, and you know what, this is this big debate between topical and expository preaching. Um, and actually, if you look at most definitions of expository, what does it mean to expose the scriptures? So whether you use one passage for several verses as often, you'd need to be exposing what they say in the, in the right. So one of my favorites, I call it a depository preaching. It's like topical and it's positively combined into one. And, uh, so example, I'm taking currently taking my church through the book of Philippians and, uh, we're calling it, enjoy the journey. And so it's, it's talking about joy and it's week. I'm trying to answer the question based on that passage. Um, and the different titles of, you know, one of them is going to be the habit, the habits of happiness and, you know, different things like that, where these are questions that people are asking and we're getting it safe from the word of God, um, the answers. And so I really prefer, and then sometimes it will just pick a topic, but then you still find like an anchor passage as your main passage. That's a lot of times what I'll do. That, that alleviates. I kind of, one of the biggest problems I see with young communicators is that they're kind of just flapping whatever verse it reminds them of. They'll just slap it on there. And it's not as much coherence in it, but if you have your main idea for your main passage, then you can pull in the different cross references. Um, but ultimately we need to preach the word. Um, Paul said I was with you in weakness and fear and much too much. My method and my preaching were not with plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and the power first Corinthians 2, 2, 4. So we have to make the choice. Do we want to impress people or impact people? So we come and we need to have that, that power coming, um, and Paul's priority, uh, was with cleanse. Um, he actually in Clawson 44 and he said, pray that I may make it clear of that. And that's one of the things that Rick Warren, he said, it's better to be clear. Thank you.

David: 33:51

Hm.

David W: 33:52

And so if you have to choose between standing really be and being clear, then choose clarity. And, uh, yeah. So I think that's one of the tragedies is a lack of clarity because the gospel can get buried under all of the insights that we get excited about. And we're not clearly preaching the gospel. Again, Howard Hendricks, he's got another junior. He said, if there's a mist in the pulpit, there's a fog in the pew.

David: 34:21

Wow.

David W: 34:23

And so one of our goals is to make it as simple as we possibly can, but not making it so simple that it's simplistic

David: 34:32

Right. That's a good

David W: 34:34

because that's what I'm finding is that he said the definition of genius is taking the complex and making it sense. So everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler than it actually means. And so I think that's the B and then the fourth, the third thing would be, um, so that with why share the what, and then show them how you want to really get to the application. Because as Nudie said, the Bible is not here to just increase their knowledge, but to change their lives. And so you want to kind of answer those questions, like head, heart, hands, like, what do I want them to know, whatever we want them to feel and what do I want them to do? And here's just a little hack that I've found is, um, if you make your applications, your points, then what you can do is you can organize your talks around your applications. And instead of it being the icing on the cake, the applications are the cake itself. And so I think that's a really cool, helpful way to do it. And so I spend a lot of time wordsmithing my main points because I want them to stick in people's minds. Um, and kind of like your words are kind of like an arrows in our. And yeah. Yeah. I think John Piper, he also said that, um, you know, books don't really change people's lives, it's paragraph, and then sometimes sentences that change people's lives. And so you just think through like, what are the sentences, the sticky sentences you want to stick in people's minds. And then once you have those, then you illustrate those. And every point has to have a picture and don't make an application without an. And I've also seen over time that facts inform, but stories transform.

David: 36:15

Hm,

David W: 36:16

And so you can kind of inform people about different things. But if you tell a story immediately, I know you've experienced that you, as you're preaching people, stuff are not off. And then you immediately tell a story and everyone wakes up.

David: 36:27

right.

David W: 36:28

And so as much as possible, tell biblical stories that connect to what you're talking about, but then also a personal story, as long as you're not making yourself.

David: 36:38

Right.

David W: 36:39

That's a problem to you, um, with that, don't make your self, the point we preach Christ, not ourselves. And so, um, yeah, those are just that start with why share the what and show them how I feel like if you use that framework, you can use that pretty much for almost any passage. And you're going to get, uh, a sermon that not only, um, connects with people, but also answers the questions they're actually asking and give them personal to.

David: 37:07

Man. That's so good. Yeah. I love that framework. That's that's I think really practical, really helpful. Uh, I know for me, it's something that I'm always looking to, to grow in. I've been breaching for many years now, but it's just, there really is a craft to it. You know, there's that heart piece that you talked about earlier, and then there's, uh, just, just, you know, a craft element of just getting better. And, and, and I think, you know, I heard, you know, Setting, I think it actually was the training that you did, um, for the campus multiplication network, in which you, you know, you talk about the time element, um, and you know, the primary goal is you want to prove something that's going to be helpful. You know, there's going to be first and foremost honoring to the Lord. Uh, secondly, it's going to be genuinely helpful to people that are hearing you, uh, but you know, there is the time aspect as well. And while that is a consideration, for sure, I mean, you don't want to be spending. I don't know, 40 hours a week. Like all you're doing is putting together a message and you're not, you know, you're not out on campus, you're not doing evangelism. You're not leading small groups. You're not, you know, you're not handling other things that need to be handled. Um, but it is something, it seems that you can, you can get better, uh, over time and you can also get a faster over time. Not again, I don't know. Overstate that as if you know, it's just, man, you want to be fast as if that's the goal. It's not a race, but, but you also, I think from a time management perspective, it is a consideration of, Hey, how much time is it taking me? Because that's time that you're spending on something that you are not spending on something else. Um, just as. Get near to, to happen up here, David, any, any comments on that piece as, as someone is working through these steps, uh, how, what does that process look like of, of getting, you know, quality, but also just the time constraints involved in producing something of quality in kind of a reasonable amount of time? What would you say a reasonable amount of time is? And, you know, what does the progression look like of, of getting good and prioritizing that, but also of just keeping it within some kind of. Time constraint.

David W: 39:16

Yeah, well, I think it's going to sound weird at first. Um, to go to go fast, you actually have to slow down. And I, and I think the reason I say that is because of meditation,

David: 39:31

Mm.

David W: 39:32

but I think that meditation on scripture is the missing link to most people preaching, because I think I've got to do a talk on this passage. So I'm just going to immediately, I'm just going to vomit out everything that I know about this passage and write. But then they don't take time to let it really incubate. It's actually the longer that you meditate on it, the faster your actual writing will go. And so if you let it sink deep in your heart, it's kind of like the marination of a, you know, a good state. You magnate that really, that, that boy really well, maybe smoke slow, cricket and smoke it. That's what meditation does for our souls as we meditate on the word. And so I I'm, I might, I might most preachers, um, immediately as I'm looking at. Oh, the passage I'm thinking of. Okay. How can I find the perfect alliteration, you know, or whatever, because I know God only works in repetition of initial consonant sound, but, uh, but sometimes yeah, you skip that meditation or you jumped straight to what your YouTube video about your favorite preacher. He's giving that and you don't do the personal meditation yourself, or you just use someone else's sermon. Uh, but in Psalm 1, 19 99, he says, I have more understanding than all my teachers for your testimonies are my meditation. The meditation is kind of like the difference between a factual sermon in a fire, your sermon.

David: 40:59

Um,

David W: 41:00

So if you slow down and kind of reread, so that's one of the things I like to do. It just kind of like that bridge between information and the application. So that's the thing that it actually speeds. And so one of the things that, um, that helps me to do that is I spread my prep time over time. So it started on Monday and I do a lot of my meditation on Monday. I let it sit. I don't even put, really try to write on the first day, then Tuesday, I might start on my rough draft a little bit, but I don't put a lot of pressure on myself. That's my word, vomit day. So it's kinda like there's, there's one author that said there's no such thing as good writing. Only good rewrite. And so you just get it all out there. And then if it's this process of going over it, going over it going over it. So Tuesday kind of brushed off Wednesday, left after game. And then Thursday, I'm at a point where it's really average about two hours each day that I'm doing that. And then Thursday, I get my handout and my slides ready, and that's what I kind of finalize it. And then I have Friday as my. And then Saturday I go over it again, actually practice it out loud twice. Um, just helped me to like verbalize it and it kind of thoughts, disentangle themselves, as you say them. And then, um, Sunday morning, usually I say it one more time in my closet just to, before I preach it. Um, and so that's just kinda my process, but it's this idea of incubation over time. And, but it actually ended up sending maybe an average of 10 to 12. Per week on, it gives me time to do other things. I'm not only doing that, but I'm, but I'm also practicing, um, energy management. It gets the book at your best. Like there's a new hop. It's a great book. It talks about doing your best work when you're at your best. And so for me, it's that morning time slot, you know, between nine and noon, um, the prime times for me to really be working on brainwork. And so that yeah, creating those artificial deadline. Thursday's my day. I got to have my handout done. That helps me to push that forward. Um, practicing that energy management, doing whatever you can to create a workspace that is focused. Um, you know, no shame in getting a, get an energy drink or some music. I was always listening to music. I have like my pump up mix that have my faster music. And then out of my score music that I just get in the zone, I'm enjoying the. And then, uh, yeah, I think the other thing is just never stopped improving as you keep getting better, have that thing. Read books, read some good books about preaching. Um, listening to seminars, listened to the, your favorite preachers and don't just listen for the content, listen for how they're delivering what they're saying. And, um, I think that's the other big thing is if you want to be a student of the craft and that's actually one of the things that Paul told Timothy is. To, to immerse yourself in this and let people see your progress. And then he says, by doing that, you're helping save yourself and you're here is. And so I just think that that's an amazing, um, challenge that this is what God, if you are called the priest, you've been given one of the highest columns in the world and we needed to be people who devote ourselves to that, the ministry of the word and a prayer. And that's the other thing, the whole. used to be bathed in prayer. And as you're praying to God and praying that God would help you do that.

David: 44:35

Yeah, well, David, this has been so helpful, man. I just appreciate what you've shared. You dropped so many quotes that were gold, and so clearly you are a student of this yourself, and. Man, just appreciate your generosity. I know, even as we're recording this, I'm on east coast or on west coast inside, it was pretty early in the morning for you. And, and so man, just appreciate your generosity with your time and just what you with what you've learned to invest into other leaders and, uh, and student leaders as well. So, man, um, just appreciate you. It's an honor to, to know you and, uh, grateful for your life, man. So thank you.

David W: 45:12

Thanks so much.