Ready to unravel the intricacies of cryptocurrency and blockchain technology in the real estate sector? Join us as we sit down with Professor Tonya Evans who brilliantly guides us through the world of these fascinating digital assets, and their potential in reshaping our financial landscape and revolutionizing real estate investing. This episode is a deep dive into everything from the pitfalls of the traditional monetary system to the exciting possibilities that blockchain technology offers for a more secure, efficient, and inclusive transaction system.
We also scrutinize the idea of cryptocurrency as a hard-capped, taxed capital asset that could be a game-changer for portfolio management, and the potential implications for governments and banking systems if people opt for non-traditional currencies over government-issued ones. Listen closely as Professor Evans sheds light on the FedNow program and its potential to disrupt the traditional banking ecosystem while potentially infringing on financial privacy.
As we journey through the digital landscape, we delve into the security aspects of cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology, and how they are designed to be virtually incorruptible, thanks to consensus, peer-to-peer technology, and cryptography. Discover the intersection of real estate and cryptocurrency, where digital assets have the potential to represent physical assets like real estate. We discuss the potential of fractional ownership, wider investor access, and enhanced liquidity. Lastly, join us in our heartwarming chat about the charm of Old San Juan and Professor Evans' upcoming trip to Puerto Rico.
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Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Latinos and Real Estate Investing Podcasts, where individuals just like you come to learn how to create well the real estate investing, entrepreneurship and business ownership. And today's guest is a Tenure Professor, tanya Evans, who is a professor at the Penn State Dickinson Law School. Professor Tanya Evans is a professional writer, speaker, law professor and host of the podcast Tech Intersect, an engaging and informative weekly show that highlights new and notable, preparing new collar professionals for the future of work, wealth and creativity. She's also the CEO of Advantage Evans LLC and she was also named the prestigious Forbes 50 over 50 list. She's also the author, as I said on top of this, this intro, she's the author of Digital Money Domestified. And Professor Evans, appreciate you coming on. Welcome to Latino and Real Estate Investing Podcasts.Speaker 2:
Thank you, martin. Thank you so much. This is one of my favorite topics in the world and one of my favorite opportunities to kind of demystify the space. There's so much focus with crypto on kind of the investment side for currencies and for assets but there are a lot of opportunities with blockchain technology, particularly in the real estate area. So I look forward to kind of unpacking that with you for your listeners and your viewers.Speaker 1:
Thank you. Thank you so much, really, really, I'm grateful that you're here. Thanks, let's get right into it. I'm a real estate guy. This is a real estate podcast. I'm an open-minded guy, always wanting to learn and grow and just expand, as are my listeners and my followers. Why don't you start with us by just giving us an overall of what is cryptocurrency? Could you just provide a brief overview of what it is and how it works?Speaker 2:
Absolutely, and I'll stay away from a lot of the jargon because I remember when I first learned about it. I'm a tenured professor, I'm a lawyer, I practice law and big law Before I even started teaching. I'm in my 16th or 17th year teaching. I'm licensed in four states to practice law and I am trained to find all of the things that could go wrong and to protect my clients or to educate my students about how to problem solve, and so when I heard about magic internet money back in 2017, I wanted nothing to do with it, as most people will have that type of reaction, and I'm a Gen Xer as well, so I like a good ATM. I know where my bank is. I even grew up with a checkbook. I know this is crazy, but stay with me. So for me, trying to figure out the precise question what is this? And I think, even more than some of the other technologies that we can think about in our life. I have no idea exactly how this microphone works, but I know it's intended use. I have no idea how to really use my TV, but I know it's intended purpose my supercomputer of a car.Speaker 1:
I don't know.Speaker 2:
I think I'm underutilizing it. I feel like I use about 3% of the car. So it's really important that we focus on the why. That leads to the next curious question about the what, when I think about comparing cryptocurrencies and actually talk more about crypto assets. Because, although this form of digital money, this exchange of value using the same type of peer-to-peer technology we used to use file sharing where I'm an IP lawyer file theft story for another day but this idea of using peer-to-peer technology to exchange value instead of just media files or instead of just an email or a text, that we can actually exchange money, or I can agree to sell something and you can agree to pay me and think of all the different ways that we have to actually pay someone. We have the almighty dollar or, wherever you are, your form of government-issued money, which we call fiat currency. So here in the United States USD, you think all around the world of the various currencies that depend on a particular border and a particular government and some governments do better than others. Some countries are doing better than others. Some are experienced hyperinflation and you go to sleep one day and your bank account has been seized or the value of the money like you have to hurry up and spend it as soon as you're paid, or else 48 hours later it might not be worth it. Or you're sending money around the world, and if you're sending $1,000 USD by the time it gets to the person, if it does in another country, it's a shell of its former self. Fees on fees on fees, and everybody taking their cut without adding here. With peer-to-peer cash, you and I can do a transaction anywhere in the world not beholden to a particular government or a country, and that doesn't mean that it's illegal. But financial privacy is one of the most important ways that we, particularly in communities of color, can actually exercise sovereignty, self-determination. There's a lot of freedom and power in managing your own money, and so that's why it's a powerful alternative. Sometimes we're using cash, sometimes we use credit cards, sometimes we wire. It depends on the transaction. We have Zelle and Venmo and Cash App. There's so many different ways. This is just another way to transact value. And then a short point about what blockchain is, and then just the connection between it. A blockchain is really just software that manages the transactions and the balances. That's all it is. You hear the term ledger. We think of maybe the double entry ledger system of money in, money out. At the end of the day, if I sent you $1,000 from my bank account, my bank would have to reconcile it at the end of the day, yours would have to reconcile it at the end of the day, and then banks have reconciliation as between themselves at the commercial bank level and then ultimately, they get their money from the Federal Reserve here in the United States. So that's a lot of moving, that's a lot of human intervention. There are a lot of opportunities to lose track or have Ledgers or records that don't precisely match, and that's the reason that it can take so long, like time, to settle it. You're waiting for your money three to five business days, maybe a week, sometimes two weeks. That's way too long and in the crypto space, final point you can settle those transactions in seconds or minutes and that's you know, maybe hours, but not two, three, four, five days or weeks. And that is power as well. So a little more probably than you you asked for. But I wanted to kind of set the stage for how cryptocurrency a way to use software to program money that May be in ten years from now. Maybe we come back and talk about getting closer to a global reserve currency. Right now that's the dollar, but a lot of countries are pulling backward. We're up against political crisis. We have had a downgrade in our debt because we can't come to an agreement. It's the third time ever in the history of the United States, and that happened this year. We've had bank failures. There are a lot of issues with the traditional system. Crypto is not perfect, but it is another alternative, particularly for those who've been systemically marginalized.Speaker 1:
So a lot of you give us a lot of information there. So I want to just unpack that bit at a bit at a time. First, I got a question. You said something made the traditional monetary system and you transfer money. Sometimes your money around it takes days and I just experienced this with my own money, right. So I went. My wife tells me that they hate I need to transfer money for one of our accounts with another bank to this, to our Bill count, and I'm actually I just won and I transferred it, but it's two separate banks. It's my own money, right, like I control it, both money. It took five days for the bank to hit this bank and I'm like wait a minute, but you already took it out of here. And my wife is like, well, the money's not there yet. I'm like yeah, babe, it's out of here already. Just look, go in the account. It's gone and where. So where is that money going? I just want to kind of get get to your thought.Speaker 2:
So it's interesting with the savings and loans. When you think of savings and loans, and we do both at the same bank usually, or we have a couple of a few accounts as well, and it is very frustrating to move my money from USAA to, you know, the Bank of America, right? Well, wells Fargo, I forbid, right, all of them is like that's a whole other story. Right, that's this podcast after dark, but it's a great question. Where is the money? Think about our Monetary system here in the United States, and many operate in the same way. When we think about the power of the United States dollar, it is no longer backed by a physical asset. It has not been backed by gold for decades, decades, decades, decades. Right, there you go. Right, a whole other century, and what we have now is a fractional system, which means that if we all showed up today to ask for our money and then you had this experience where everybody's not doing a what we call a bank run, right, if we all show up, we're all not getting our money and the FDIC can do nothing about it. Right? And if you really ball in out of control, a hundred thousand dollars is not gonna make you whole and it's not gonna make me Go. So, yay, I get a hundred thousand dollars back. That's not what we're working on. We're working on actual wealth, an actual accumulation, generational wealth. Heck, I'll even claim a dynastic wealth. That doesn't happen at the hundred thousand dollar level. When that money is On your ledger at your bank, the record it's basically ones and zeros. Already, the software but it's still what we call siloed it's in that bank has actually Leveraged the money that we make in terms of deposits to go out to the world and invest, and it takes them some time to Unwind those investments. Where they go out, they are attracting a premium on your money and then they give you the privilege of actually getting a loan Based on your deposits at an interest rate that now is what? Six, seven percent. So it's kind of it's kind of a Ponzi ski. I don't know what I'm. A percent it's not hyperbole to say that right 100%.Speaker 1:
It definitely is a banking system. I'm gonna just call it as it is my podcast. So the biggest crooks and the freaking planet. I'm calling you guys out. You guys are freaking, be giving me a quarter of a percent. You're making seven, eight in this market. Seven and a half percent on my money. That's great. And then I can't even go get my money if I want it right now. If I go, we don't have that out the bag. Well, why is it showing on my cup? So, absolutely, it's right, the schemes that exist to mankind. So we just got to learn how to play the game and for me, I just use that and look at it. Okay, what are the rules? And I can't change it myself, but how can I play? Hence why you're here, because we want to learn about crypto and other things aren't it. You talked about crypto and you said something. You use a word asset, and so that's a word that we use, is very common word for us as investors when we're buying real estate. They're, they're, not homes. So you always, you can usually tell the difference, whether an investor realist, a real, real investor or the agent I'm gonna say agents, agents that work with investors in a seasoned investor versus a non-seasoned investor and they say they're gonna buy a home and we don't use those that type of language. We're gonna buy an asset and asset produces money. It makes us money. A cash flows period. In a story, it's not what does, no attachment to it. My house, where I live and sleep, that's my home, that's what happens, that's where my wife keeps everything beautiful for us and we you know we this is our home as our safe space. Everything else Is just an asset. Tell me, how is crypto an asset? Can you unpack that for me?Speaker 2:
Yeah, I'm glad that you asked that because I feel like the word Cryptocurrency and we can even talk about the origins of why crypto and currency is placed together, but it's a bit of a misnomer or maybe a limitation, because certainly I could send you Bitcoin or ether or one of the 30,000 plus different types of coins and tokens, but they are taxed as capital assets. Think historically, about how people really go from sorry about that from going from High net worth individual, let me say this way high income earning individual, where most wealthy people don't want a high income because it's taxed at a higher rate. They want to your point, to you. You know, I use my creativity, I use my, my intellect, my expertise to create assets and opportunities that do not return to this home void, that go out into the world and actually work harder than I do, because not only do I have an asset, that it has its own value, used real estate. That's an excellent example. We could talk about stocks and bonds and other Assets as well that not only let's use. The home, for example, has its own value, it's base, its basis, right, it's, it's Basic property that would go up or down depending upon the market, but you could actually also rent it out, as you and your your Audience well knows, and so that's a double benefit of having rental income in addition to an asset that will. Real estate is one of the best assets of all times because it's finite. We're not making any more land unless there's some eruption that is creating a new landmass. Right, we have the land that we have. Bitcoin is kind of like that as well. They call it digital gold Because it has a hard cap 21 million. The software has been programmed to only allow for 21 million Bitcoin, and as more people start to learn more and more about it, there's more demand, but the supply is going down, and we all know what happens over time. When you have larger demand, then you have supply. The price generally goes up over time, and so that's a really important part of why cryptocurrencies generally, and certain ones in particular, are capital assets that also you can leverage as if you were pulling out a home equity loan. You can do that in the decentralized finance space with cryptocurrency. So, yes, you can spend it like cash, like currency, but you can also buy as an investor With a long-term trajectory, because there's a lot of volatility in the space, but over time to use it as part of, and even a small part of, an overall portfolio to hedge against opportunities where you might not be making much one, two percent in some really really stable or or conservative assets.Speaker 1:
Do you think that crypto is a threat to the current monetary system, especially the US dollar?Speaker 2:
the short answer is yes, and I think you know. Bitcoin has been around since 2009 and a lot of the technologies used to Create crypto currencies you know before mainstream Of it and the mainstream folks in the world have access to a technology. Usually it's passed through one or two governments and then becomes mainstream. That internet started with our, under our, between governments and educational institutions, so by the time we get to it, it's already been vetted, used as well. This is a huge threat because think of how the taxation system works for governments really Texas are to go largely to defense, to continue to prop up borders in an increasingly global world. And it was one thing when we were using peer-to-peer technology and the internet and maybe even cryptography, which just means encrypting messages Separate and apart from exchanging value. That's one thing. It's like information wants to be free. Let's get this internet up and running. This is going to be good for business. This is good for people. Oh, wait, a minute. You're using the same technology now to exchange value. That's the purview of the government. I don't know if we're gonna like that, because it begins to undermine the power of governments over the people that it governs and that's a really powerful shift. I think that's why the United States is dragging its feet. I testified before Congress in March for the House Financial Services Subcommittee on Digital Assets, financial Technology and Inclusion, and in addition to teaching at the law school intellectual property and blockchain, crypto and law, I also teach administrative law, so I understand very well agencies the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Commodity Futures Trade Commission, the SEC and the CFTC and Treasury and there's a lot of concern now that people are starting to get hip to the idea that they don't always have to just hold dollars and think of what that does to start to undercut the power if we start making choices for ourselves. So it absolutely is a threat. It's a customer service issue, and have you heard recently about FedNow? Yes, maybe you or your listener, your audience, has heard about FedNow blockchain technology at the Federal Reserve level so that they could have some make better, faster, cheaper transactions the things that they could have done a long time ago but didn't. But now that they have a customer service issue, all of a sudden they have this miraculous, you know idea that you can go account to account, which starts to sound a lot like peer to peer and there's a big customer service issue and I know that governments some governments are very favorable to it, especially the ones that are small and quick and nimble, not so much the United States. But it's a matter of if, not if, but when.Speaker 1:
Can you tell my listeners I've reported on this, I do a weekly market, weekly business brief and I really don't understand the FedNow. There was some movement happened last week. Yes, fednow, as I record this is well. It was September, the middle of September. As we record this for those that are listening, I know there was something enacted where there's a movement happening. It's been happening for quite some time now. However, can you give us, so the listeners know, what is FedNow? Give them some context, because I wanna dig into that and I wanna kinda compare.Speaker 2:
Yeah, with our banking system here in the States it's basically like a two-tiered system. We have regular interaction with a bank right At the commercial level Commercial banks we mentioned some of them earlier in the show but those banks have a relationship with the Federal Reserve that is responsible for maintaining and controlling and coordinating the monetary supply. It is the level, the Federal Reserve, the kind of the case of last resort. If there is some bank failure, it will inject money to prop it up, because banks are too big to fail.Speaker 1:
We just saw that. We saw that earlier this year, didn't we? With SVP and all the bank failures, and there's a bunch Yup, the Silicon Valley, there's a bunch that were gonna fail. And they set up the secret fund and the banks are going grabbing money so they don't fail.Speaker 2:
That's correct right.Speaker 1:
So anyways, guys.Speaker 2:
Because they don't have all of the money that we talked about earlier, right? Because it's not a one-to-one thing. That's the other benefit of most or many cryptocurrencies that on a one-to-one basis, literally everybody in the world could go to access and cash out. One of my programs at Advantage Edmunds Academy is to go from cash to crypto. But there's a time when you wanna take your wins, reset your basis position, et cetera, et cetera Story for another day. But this idea of the Federal Reserve creating an account for every American citizen bypasses the retail bank area, where there's a lot of discriminatory practices. Maybe you were in college and wrote a few bad checks and now you're on some black list, right? So they're not gonna allow you to bank, and that forces folks to use Western Union or those cash checking, checking, caching places that are predatory. So, to avoid that retail layer and in theory that's a great idea they should have done it 20 years ago and they had the technology to do it. They decided not to and we have to ask the question why. And FedNow was actually slated not to release before at least 2024. I don't have those statistics in front of me, so I always like to be accurate, but I do know they accelerated to launch this year. I also see and I'm going down to DC in about a week or so to have some meetings on the Hill as well and with some agencies to talk about legislation in Congress that will inform agencies about what their approach is going to be. It's a coordinated effort. I mentioned that I was testifying before Congress earlier this year. It was to talk about what we refer to as choke point 2.0. Choke point 1.0 under the Obama administration had a laudable goal to actually cut off access for predatory lenders to the banking system. Great idea. But it was an actual policy written in agency rules and regulations. There's an act or legislation that creates and empowers agencies, and so they built it into the system. It ended up being unconstitutional and it had to fall. So now I think the current administration has taken a lesson from 1.0 and are, in effect, doing the same thing. We see it in the cannabis industry, we see it in the crypto industry as well to choke off access to the banking system and therefore try and kill off these emerging asset classes. Until a lesson, until they can figure out how to make money off of it, and so the Fed now is a way to continue that I think it will lead to now the government says no. I say not so fast. There's a thing called a central bank digital currency. Fed now is not that, because it's not an actual programmable digital currency, but it's the rails that will allow you to move your money more quickly from bank account to bank account. And as long as we're citizens, we wanna have some access to the banking system. But that should not replace it. Should be in addition to capital assets like crypto and real estate, for example, and certainly stock exchange, to actually start to move the needle and not just live paycheck to paycheck, but to spend time doing the things you love with the people you love while your assets are out there making a return on investment.Speaker 1:
You got my head spinning here, professor. You got my head spinning. I got so many questions for you. Okay, some feel that this Fed now thing gives too much control and it to move on the government side to control its citizens every movement. You know, hey, they did that with Cash App last year, I think, if you remember $600. Now the feds can see all your money. So you and I go out to dinner, we're with our families, our spouses, and I'm like, hey, I'm gonna send you 350 so we can split this dinner whatever. Now, all of a sudden, the government's seeing that and they start maybe taxing you. Who knows right? So something that this is a move towards just a big brother watching all of our finances. They don't like what you believe, they don't like what you do. They'll cut you off. They could bully you. It's a way to bully you If, once they take the digital currency, there's some valid points in that perspective. It's a perspective and it's an interesting one, because, hey, I frankly don't want the government knowing everything I'm doing is none of their business. The other part was that question, so I wanted to get your perspective on that number one. Be that you're kind of traveling in these circles with these guys and you're talking to these Congresspeople and you're in Capitol Hill. That's the first part of the question, and then the other part of the question is what happens and this is a hypothetical, but I like to see where your mind goes with this one what happens then to potential immigrants that come to this country because this country was built on immigrants? What happens then to potential immigrants such as my mom and my family and people like that, and even some of my people that work for me and do construction?Speaker 2:
for me? Yeah well, the first one deals head on with financial privacy and the other about self-determination and truly having human rights and living a human experience, regardless of where you're from. Right, so we'll talk about financial privacy is critically important. It is so important and you should. The way that you have teed up this question is really, really important, because the idea of a government having a window into everything you do, listen. The best way to know something about somebody is to look at the record, the ledger, of their transactions. Forget what I tell you, forget my diary, even my calendar. You wanna know about me. You look at what I spend my money on and there is a perfect record, and that is terrifying. People in the States, who have the privilege of thinking that we have a system that is impenetrable, you're in for a rude awakening, because all great dynasties fall at some point earth, and we are beginning to see the cracks and the fissures in a system that is is being crushed under the weight of its own greed and the way that it treats people and the fact that it was propped up on the backs of others. That is how the system works. Why would it change now? Why would it change? Because they have a technology that is actually improving their ability to control. I'm not talking about conspiracy theories. It literally just is what it is. Am I Checking out and going off the grid anytime soon? I don't think so, but I can never unknow what I know now and what I've learned in these last six years of being about so financial privacy. Privacy is huge. If I gave you a hundred dollars in cash, or a thousand or ten thousand, or nine hundred, nine thousand, nine hundred, exactly right, you get the, you get the game right. Then that's between you and me, and Privacy does not mean, although we've been indoctrinated to believe that it's somehow illegal or that we shouldn't trust ourselves as a matter of Self-determination. Think of how our communities, as people of color, have Used trust within our own community. Yeah, sussus, and all sorts of other things. Where a community is is Connected by trust, and you knew who was going to pay and who wasn't going to pay, and we all put in for the survival and the betterment of community. But when you know community started getting out, you know Growing or coming into contact with other communities that they didn't know or trust, you needed that Intermediary that both parties could trust, because it's like I don't know you and your people, but I know this bank right here. You know, or I know, this government and it's likely that this trip is actually will go through. The other side of that is now Do we trust the intermediaries? Do we trust big business, big tech, big government to protect us? And that's why privacy is so important and then you put that on top of those Moving as humans, having a human experience but not being able to participate, being kept out Intentionally. That's a feature, not a bug. But if you have cryptocurrency, as long as you have a like most people have a phone, even when you have unreliable internet. I'm thinking of, on the continent of Africa countries, the adoption of Bitcoin, in particular in places like Ghana and Nigeria, really, really robust, because people get it like I don't know about my currency or you have dozens of currencies and Dialects within a small place, but we can all agree to the price of Bitcoin right around the world. It's not beholden to a particular place. That also can very much empower those who don't have a lot of political power If they're not from a country or operating here to make the country go but aren't receiving the benefits of that. This is another. Opportunity is not illegality. This is literally having a human experience and participating meaningfully, taking care of your family and your friends on your own terms.Speaker 1:
That's great answer, by the way. Thank you for this, because I mean, I'm learning a ton. I'm getting so much value from this conversation we're having. I like to think in terms of strategies. Right, I'm a strategist. I study, I study the markets, I study what's happening, I study the data and I make my decisions based on what's happening around me and I try to look out at what's to come and how I can get in the way of that to to make a profit. I'm a business guy. That's what I right. Mm-hmm, what do you? What do you think, strategically speaking, that the government are doing to kind of move the chess pieces around so that they eventually can control this? I know one thing is what happened with the guy. What's it? The young guy's name, the kid name?Speaker 2:
Sam bankman freed. Right kid is there? Sam bankman freed.Speaker 1:
Yeah, this kid man, it just I, just you, just so. So that press right Gives people, they put that on media boop-boop-boop and everyone gets aired. Now everyone is like, oh, that thing is scary. They, you, that's another. What's the other guy, though, the older guy, though, bernie Madoff, very made up, that's right, mm-hmm, bernie Madoff. This is a modern-day Bernie Madoff, right? This kid?Speaker 2:
Yeah, I would, you know, reduce everything that Governments and even you know some of the sensational headlines and that's not that we can talk about Sam bankman freed. I have a. I did a whole like mini series on my podcast. Tech intersect about that and I've done a lot of blogging around it, so folks can look for that as well, because I do take a deep dive. I feel like it's fortuitous. This is what you're getting at. Like this happens and then governments will seize on the opportunity to say see, crypto, bad government, good, don't trust them, or your lion eyes or yourselves. Trust us. Right, the og, just og, like you know, the devil you know, and the irresponsible Reporting around. That is what we call in the crypto ecosystem FUD, and it's an acronym that stands for fear, uncertainty and doubt. But it's not organic fear, uncertainty and doubt. If you have, I have a thinking mind. You will look at this soberly and cautiously. It's new. The technology can be really dense and heavy. Generally, you know, I describe it as like Tech, which was already kind of a white man Microcosm of the world, and then you had finance, same bros, and then they came together, had like a weird baby, and now it's cryptocurrency, right, like it's a microcosm of a microcosm. So how could it be more diverse? Right, which I would like to talk about it another time but this idea that there's this, this great kind of like existential threat to governments, is very, very real and they will be opportunistic about using things like the San Bank Manfred example. But I would like to say that SPF we call them SPF or San Bank Manfred is. His trial begins in October. He was captured within Nine months, ten months through extradition from the Bahamas, faster than Batey Bernie made off, and what he was doing was actually the same thing, having nothing to do with crypto. But you couldn't tell that from the headlines and even if you got past the headlines, you couldn't tell it by the articles that this was not a crypto scheme or scam. This was a man. That's how they, that's how they presented it right, and if you don't know, you don't know unpack it please, because.Speaker 1:
I yeah, I'm not a crypto. Mm-hmm packed that for us.Speaker 2:
Absolutely. Now, allegedly, I'm a lawyer, so I have to speak in these terms he is innocent until proven guilty, but the mechanics of what was happening is clear and he's not pushed back on this the idea that he had what was called FTX and we even had, like, ftx stadium. We had all these celebrities, we had Tom Brady and Giselle and All these folks and it's like, well, I don't know what this is, but it's on a Super Bowl commercial, so it must be legit, right. Right, they didn't know anything more than most people. They just knew they were getting a check, not just for a commercial, but also as investors, and it's a class action. Suits down in Florida about Tom and some other people story for another day. But what SPF had done with FTX, which is a centralized Crypto exchange? What does that mean? You can go on to a centralized exchange, and that's what it is exchanging one asset for another. They have pairs, just like if you were in investing in stock. So maybe I have USD and I want to buy Bitcoin or ETH. I'll go on there, I'll send my fiat to the platform and use it in exchange for Bitcoin, blah, blah, blah. Or I could go Bitcoin to eat. It's an exchange. You don't leave your money on an exchange. It's not a bank, it's not FDIC. In short, all of these other things, and we could talk about self-custody at another time. I'd love to come back, I'd love to have you back too. But, sam, it was inviting people to send their money and hold it on the exchange, either in crypto form or in fiat, and what he was doing, unbeknownst to the depositors and I'm using depositors Intentionally, even though it's not a bank was taking that money unbeknownst to them, sending it to his hedge fund called Alameda and making extremely risky bets, and when crypto was in a bull market everybody's winning. He's a golden child. He looks a little strange. I remember seeing him at a very weird-looking guy Just like, so like imagine you or me, dressing in our little khaki shorts and our crazy little hair and people throwing money at you. Like that. Even that, the privilege, the audacity Of being in that situation where people are throwing money at this little odd subodd who they named, is like this awesome person. Right, he wasn't so awesome and he you know there are a lot of people in the crypto ecosystem saying all the glitters is not gold, but he fooled a lot of people. That is a scheme, a scam if proven, is a fraud. But that had nothing to do with crypto. He was using the name of crypto, but what he was doing was a shell game moving money without the permission of those deposits. So that is what happened. Most headlines didn't capture that. The government definitely didn't amplify the distinction and even though I testified about it, I don't know how much I moved the needle on that, which is very frustrating.Speaker 1:
Yeah, well, that's why we need voices like you coming on podcast, like to really educate people on what's really going on. My last question, and I want to have you back on because we're running out of time I definitely want to have you back on, maybe towards a sometimes early next year, because I want to see what the economy is and I want to see where all of all of this. You know we'll go a little longer, but I want to see, yeah, that point where the economy is. I want to see where crypto is gonna play a role in transacting real estate. I know there has been some transactions that were already been have been recorded. Yeah in some real estate transactions. But when all of this stuff started happening with the banks and then SPF, they kind of all kind of got quiet and I was kind of waiting for that. You know, it's kind of waiting that to see. I wonder what the future of us getting loans. We're looking at a deal in in Tulsa right now. We're gonna go travel to Tulsa. It's a nine point four million dollar deal and I'm looking and I'm thinking, as I'm having this conversation with you, like hey, how would we transact a deal like that future with this type of fiat, right, with this type of currency? How would we do deals like that? What would that look like, you know? So I'm just got a curious mind of how all of this could be integrated. But yeah, my next question is you mentioned earlier, there's only 21 million Bitcoin, right? You said that that's a cap and so it's kind of that's the supply, mm-hmm. But my question is can there be some genius that come, some hacker Genius guy, right, I'm an extra, just like not saying bakeman free some. Tech wizard, elon Musk type of guy, right? Well, that's yes, he quiet that can go in and hack and create you know it's dart doing because it's digital, right? Anything did right thing. I'm not that tech savvy, so sometimes I have my team like hey, set up my calendar with this email, but I don't even know how to do that stuff sometimes, mm-hmm. Amen for me, that's really for me. So so, so, like how, what is preventing that from happening in the future? What type of guardrails Do the people have to protect us against these evil geniuses, as I like to call?Speaker 2:
Geniuses. I just can do bad things with their, with their intellect.Speaker 2:
Absolutely. I'm always worried about that for, like the end of the world, right, we got wars and rumors of wars. I don't know what's going on in the world for sure, but the the question is an important one because you've identified software right and how things can develop and change the Guardrail and crypto generally, bitcoin specifically and remember again January 3rd 2009. That's when Bitcoin first launched and you hear about Hacks and things like that. That tends to be that, first of all, that hasn't ever been the Bitcoin blockchain, which is the record of transactions and balances for Bitcoin. Usually they'll be like the centralized exchanges because, again, that information is siloed. There's someone behind the curtain that can manipulate things, and that is very, very dangerous. When you combine the idea of crypto with centralization that's not to say it's always bad you have companies like Coinbase and Gemini and Kraken that do a really good job Again, story for another day but the idea of Some type of evil genius coming in is is impeded by this idea of consensus, consensus, when, when I think of, like the main components of blockchain that enable crypto currencies and and keep those crypto currency transactions. It's peer-to-peer technology, it's cryptography and also a process called consensus, where 51% of those who are in community, those computers who are responsible for Maintaining the records, all have to come to an agreement. You could have a rogue actor that forks off the, the software creates its own version and Wants to compete, but it doesn't have the community and it won't have the consensus of 51% of the computers, or what we call 51% of the computational power. To Upload and change the nature of the records is very, very difficult to do. Maybe some quantum computers someday there's quantum computing. I'm never, gonna say never. There's this thing called a DDoS attack there, things that Software developers in the crypto space are always cognizant of. Those developers, one to a few, can't even do it. We're talking about, like the level of computational power that would be needed to unravel a blockchain. Let me say a little bit more about this, because I think it brings the point home. What is? Why do we call it blockchain? Without getting into jargons or or wonky, it's because from the first block of verified data and information let's use Bitcoin as an example we call it a block because it is an aggregation, roughly every ten minutes, of any transaction that comes through and is verified. What does verification mean? That there are instructions in that software that says if, then then that. If, then then that right, does this wallet actually have one Bitcoin it send it? Was it actually signed by the wallet holder to send to this other? It's a few simple things, but important things, and I'm sure there are transactions that come all the time that are rejected because they do not Follow the instructions of the software protocol. But if they do within a ten minute window, a ten minute block of transactions. Sometimes that's a few hundred, that could be a few thousand, it depends, right, but the timing is critically important because these are time-stamped transactions. Once that ten minutes goes by, a Bit of that information is reduced to ones and zeros An alpha numeric String that we call a hash. It's like a thumb pit print or a fingerprint, and that fingerprint is connected to the next block of Verified transactions, distilled to its own fingerprint, and so on and so on, and so on and so on. So, the longer that that transactional data has been organized in that way and inextricably linked, in order to unravel that you have to do everything that came before, and so that's why that's what makes Bitcoin, in particular, so powerful, and the Ethereum network has been around since 2014, 2015, believe us, 2015 that's a not insignificant amount of history and makes it that's why we call it incorruptible Immutable, because once it's said, it cannot be undone. There have been some Exceptions. When a community comes to the agreement that they need to fork the software to improve it, maybe there's a bug, but it takes 51% of that community to do that, and so that's a layer of protection that makes it really really secure. Doesn't move always Right now. It doesn't have the true ability to scale Like if everybody wanted to use Bitcoin today, there's some things that would have to happen, but it is one of the most secure forms of value transaction or transfer that there is literally in the world, and that's one of the many reasons I'm so bullish on the space.Speaker 1:
I know I said that was the last question, but I have one. Oh really you gotta go.Speaker 2:
This house is getting hungry.Speaker 1:
One more one, last one. I promise All right, let's go. So Bitcoin boom. Let's just go in the future. We're all crypto currency. Let's say Bitcoin is, so we have what? El Salvador? Is it El Salvador? That's now all Bitcoin, and when you come back, I wanna get your feedback on how that's going. So talk about that, but we'll talk about that when you come back. Let's just go in the future. We're all Bitcoin out, we all got Bitcoin and we're all trading in Bitcoin. Nice, I buy a real estate property from you, but I don't have enough. The beauty of real estate is the leverage right. The beauty of real estate is leverage, and I can buy a hundred unit apartment building that costs $10 million and I could buy it with $2 million. Right, I leverage, I leverage the rest and I can cash flow using that method. So just curious, from your perspective, what would it look like? Cause this will destroy the banking system. I can see it clearly it will crush the banking system. But what will that look like when we're transacting real estate or we're transacting loans with each other, Cause I need capital to buy deals, right? I don't use capital. I use other people's money and I use lenders and I use everything. I need capital. Someone's gotta make money, cause that's the way the capitalist society works, right? So I take your Bitcoin.Speaker 2:
Yeah, this is a really, really interesting part of the intersection of real estate, blockchain technology and leveraging crypto in the same way that you might think about. Maybe you have 10 Bitcoin and you go into the world of decentralized finance, where we were talking earlier about savings and loans. Well, there's another system, above and beyond crypto. It's one thing to purchase crypto. It's another thing to then leverage the value of the crypto. You have, lock it up in what we call how best to say this a smart contract vault, which automates the performance. It's something that you can transfer it in and it locks it unless and until you pay it off but you're really paying yourself or you can come into agreement with others anywhere in the world, which really is a matter of liquidity starts to open up the real estate market, cause it's something that can be really, really difficult if you're not from a country or they're like you can't buy, you're not from here. But this can unlock. Digital assets can represent physical world assets like real estate, real estate funds, revenue streams, governance rights. It's so much more because it's programmable through the metadata. You can do this in once. Assets that are physical are actually what we call tokenized, represented in a crypto token, they can be divided. So now you're talking about fractional ownership as well. You can access like a wider pool of investors, you can leverage to raise capital. You can use that token to start to to build a return on your investment and just really open up the possibilities. So it makes me think of, like asset management, real estate funds, project financing I think you mentioned that right. So with these smart contracts, it's not really a contract in the way that we think of it. Like my lawyer brain doesn't like all this jargon, cause it doesn't match my understanding. We're not talking about offer, acceptance and agreement. It's really programmable code that performs a certain function. Long story short, think of it like a vending machine. You go, you see a soda. It costs a dollar 50, you have $2, you put the $2 in the software in the system gives you 50 cents change and as long as it falls, you're soda right. We don't have to call anybody to help or anything like that. So our contracts can do that to facilitate financing, to record deeds, to record liens, land and property registries. There was this great. I don't think it's still up and running, but in Illinois I wanna say Chicago, but definitely Illinois they were starting to not only digitize their deeds and their records, but also leveraging the blockchain as well. Urban planning, property development, investing, accessing liquidity and extra cash. You can do all of those things in the decentralized finance space in a way that doesn't require you to have a specific FICO score. Nobody's going through your three to five years of your bank Like. I hate that part of financing a transaction. I went so crazy as to just pay something outright. I don't like to do that. I think it's unnecessary, but I would rather use what I've earned in the crypto space to actually pay something outright and just be done with it Through the brain damage. We're not going back and forth. I'm not going back and forth for things. I don't think you need to make sure. I am who I am who I say I am and I have what I say. I have Hashtag Bank of America right, I will walk away from the table. That is free done. This is not really about crypto. It's not really about real estate. We're talking about it as a vehicle and a tool. We're talking about empowerment. We're talking about options. We're talking about freedom in a way that is unapologetic, and this is a start. We've got to get this Like. We don't have the luxury of time to wait. That's why I wrote the book Digital Money Demystified. That's why I work with people, either through my online courses or through coaching. We've got to get this. This is like, when we are past the real estate frontier, of like buying 20 years ago and it was super cheap and I'm always going to be in real estate. That's not to diminish it at all, but the best time was kind of like 20 years ago. When I think about Silicon Valley, that whole thing happened black and brown communities. Unless you're the 1%, or the 1% or the 1%, I didn't even know it was a boom bust in a reorganization before I knew what the hell was going on. This is what we are witnessing right now in the crypto space. So make a commitment like the only thing keeping us back at this point is our lack of information, but our ignorance will not save us 100%. So that's that on that.Speaker 1:
What a coincidence. Awesome, what an amazing episode. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, really bottom my heart. Thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I learned a ton. I have a bunch of more questions, but we're out of time. We're out of time but I'm going to have you come back and we can have this conversation again, maybe early next year if you're to that. Love to have you come back. So we're going to go into the entire round where we're going to ask you a series of questions just for people to get to know you a little bit. You don't have to justify. You could justify is up to you. It's just fun. Are you ready to play? Let's go? Ok, a million dollars is a start. I've always wanted to go to Bali. My advice to young people is save us.Speaker 2:
It's too late for us. Save yourselves, young people. No, you're going to underestimate the power of, oh, of a change in your mindset. The president right now is Hopefully going to win next time. I don't know, that's very controversial. My man was like hmm.Speaker 1:
Family or business.Speaker 2:
Oh gosh, my family is my business Passion or stability. Hmm, stability, book stability. Please Don't work on passion or street smart? Oh boy, you can't really replace street smarts. I'm going to go with that Wine or beer I'm an enophile Wine all day and twice on Sunday. Let's get up, oh Jesus, let's go. Skill or popularity.Speaker 1:
Oh, skill, bye, Luke. Shut up More time or more money, hmm, money and lastly, success or happiness, happiness, fantastic To conclude this episode. Thank you so much. First up to account, I really appreciate you taking the time coming out and sharing with us. If people wanted to connect with you, where do they find you? Where do they find your book? How could they continue to learn from you? Tell us about your podcast, how do we link to your podcast? We'll put all those links in the show notes, by the way, but how do people continue to just to learn from you? You mentioned coaching a few moments ago. People wanted to get coaching from you. People wanted to get your book. People wanted to follow you on social. They wanted how they find you.Speaker 2:
There's so many different ways to engage, but the best way is to go to digitalmoneydemystifiedcom. It's digitalmoneydemystifiedcom. Not only can you pre-order the book, and it's really important. The book comes out October 24th, but it's already available on Amazon and all the places. If you go to digitalmoneydemystifiedcom, there's a click through. If you pre-order, I send you some bonuses as well. All you have to do is order, drop the order identify in. I can't go and make sure you could literally make it up I hope that you don't but you can go there and have some bonuses for you to get started, like a crypto glossary, some of my white papers, a bunch of resources where you can get up and get started. Now I also have a membership program to digitalmoneydemystified, because it was a challenge to write a book about this space, particularly because it changes so frequently. I spend my morning for two hours studying what this happened the day before in the morning of, and two hours usually isn't enough. That's just as much time as I can commit, but I'm using the membership to actually do regular updates. You could be a monthly member, an annual member. I'm doing a limited number of lifetime memberships and that's going to be fantastic. You get the book. There are some free masterclasses. So you have to develop or gauge your level of engagement. Either you're kicking the tires or you're about this life. If you're about this life, become a member. You can inquire. I have very few spaces to work one-on-one, but I tend to do small groups of highly engaged investors who are ready to go to the next level. I have a retreat coming up in November in San Juan. I'm taking 15 people. There's seven already signed up, so there are eight spaces left to join me in beautiful San Juan, at the Condado. It's the Fairmont down there. It's beautiful Spa. Let's get our energy right, let's get this sun. Let's get these satoshis, which is the smallest form of Bitcoin, in a small and engaged group. That could be a really fun opportunity as well. All of that information is at digitalmoneydemystifiedcom. Then, for social, you can use my link tree. That's the best way. There are a lot of imposters out there. If somebody is sliding into your DM saying, hey, I'm Professor Evans and would you be interested in Forex? No, go, no, not me, I have a few other things to do. That's sliding into your DMs. I do wish you well. Go to my link tree, which is Tanya Evans or digitalmoneydemystifiedcom. Those are the two entry points, and then we can take it from there.Speaker 1:
Perfect. Thank you so much Again. I had a blast here learning. I love spending time with smart people, just people that I can just man. I just feel smarter after this conversation. I'm sure my listeners do too. Thank you so much for taking the time again. Make sure, guys, you guys follow her. Check her out. San Juan sounds like fun. That's beautiful down there. Are you going to be in Old San Juan? Is that in El Viejo San Juan?Speaker 2:
It will be. It won't be in Old San Juan, but Old San Juan is close to it. La Llo is like maybe 10 minutes away from Old San Juan. Yes.Speaker 1:
Beautiful down there, Beautiful down there. So I'm sure you guys are going to have a blast. Thank you again, Professor Tanya. Thank you for the extra time. I know you gave us some extra time. This was supposed to be a 30-minute interview in one hour. That just tells you. My team tells me anytime when you upload your podcast. We know you had a good time and you had a real good conversation. When it's over 45 minutes.Speaker 2:
They're like he went in.Speaker 1:
Yeah, you know you had a good time, so, professor, really appreciate you. Thank you very much for being here.Speaker 2:
Thank you, Martin.