Raise The Anchor

A Blessing in Disguise- with Heather Deveaux

Melissa Burbridge Episode 40

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Heather Deveaux created her first online course back in 2008 - before Facebook was a household name and she's created thousands of hours of learning content over the years, serving clients in 8 countries, across 4 continents. Now she helps entrepreneurs create online courses quickly and easily using proprietary frameworks and proven systems that make getting ideas out of your head and onto the page effortless. Heather lives, works, and plays in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and loves to travel, drive fast cars and talk about entrepreneurship with anyone who will listen.



SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to another episode of Raise the Anchor. Today we have the lovely Heather DeVoe, an instructional designer, Welcome, Heather. Thanks, Melissa. I'm excited to be here. So excited to have you. Instructional design sounds so fancy and I can't wait until you tell us what that is. But before you were an instructional designer, what did you do?

SPEAKER_00:

I've kind of always been an instructional designer and we'll sort of tell that story. But basically, before I was an entrepreneur, before I was a full-time entrepreneur, I came from the education world. I was a college instructor for almost 10 years. And then I get into the startup scene and I worked for a couple of tech companies. And I did training and development and we had international retail clients that we worked with. And then I went on to work for a tech startup college and quickly went from consultants to operations manager to executive director to this company is bankrupt. We're going to have to shut her down and I'm going to have to find something else to do with my life. And then I became a full-time entrepreneur and that's the quick and dirty version of it. But education, online education, curriculum development has always I've always been a part of my life, and I actually taught my very first lesson. I tell this story all the time, but I actually taught my very first lesson when I was just 18 years old. I was a medic in the military, and I had been approached by a senior soldier. They asked if I was interested in teaching a lesson. And I was like, sure, but like, how do you do that? I'm 18. I don't know nothing. I don't know no better. And they taught me everything that I know. And I still use a lot of what I learned in the army today, actually, to help entrepreneurs create online courses. And yeah, so it's been a crazy ride. It's been a great journey. But every job I've ever had, every business I've ever started has been about educating and empowering others.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice. And that's such a, you already kind of answered the next question and what made you switch careers from corporate to your own, but were you already feeling the need? Cause I remember at a retreat we were both at that you were saying that you were already kind of looking at it just kind of happened at a perfect time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I've actually had like 20 businesses and that's a real number. Okay. And I have always been someone who's been very entrepreneurial, very driven to create, but I was also really lazy and I really don't like hard things. And so my early years kicks at the can of entrepreneurship were more about startup and less about, you know, running maintenance. There was no thought of growth ever. I think the constant thought I had back then was, how do I get to a million dollars and why don't I have a million dollars already? As you mature and you come to realize what entrepreneurship is, you start to realize that you have to make a dollar before you can make$10. That became very apparent to me. I learned a lot of hard lessons in the very last corporate job that I had when I was working for a tech startup college. We taught coding. As I mentioned, I started as a consultant and I was just sort of assessing staff and students trying to figure out what do they need in their programming education. I was coming in to do educational consulting and that was at a time when I was unemployed, but I was like, oh, there's lots of things I could be doing in the community. So I just started reaching out to some of the organizations to sort of get my feet wet and see what was available to me. So this organization picked me up and hired me as a consultant and within a as the operations manager. And then very quickly within three months of that happening, a lot of things came to fruition around the company finances, some issues that had been happening around the running of the company. And we basically staged a mutiny. I don't even know how to say that in a very nice way, but I basically got the boys together in the company. It was me and like five guys. And there were a lot of things happening with our boss and we collectively decided it was him or us. We went to the owner of the company and we pitched he needs to go so we can do this thing properly. And we basically put him out of the company and I took over as acting executive director. Thank you so much for having me. successful. And one of the things I had said for years was my dream was to always run a school. And because of my background in education and I have a master's degree in adult education, I always wanted to be an executive director of a college. And that's where my heart was at the time. And so I finally was an executive director of a college, except it was like half a million dollars in debt. We have the government, a quarter of a million dollars in back taxes. And I was like, Oh, no, this is not what I wanted. And so I constantly walked this tightrope of, you have exactly what you want, and... Also, you have to let that go. And so what happened was we ended up hiring an accountant. We hired a lawyer. We did all this stuff. And I come up with a three-month plan. So it was only one year that I was there. This all transpired in one year. And in the last three months of operation, we wrapped up the program where the students were. They had no idea that any of this was happening until it was all over. So they graduated. We collected as much payment as we could. We tried to connect with community partners to get support, but that was unsuccessful And so we finally made the decision to shut the company down. And as that was happening, I was having to lay off employees. I had never done any of this before. So I was flying by the seat of my pants. At the same time, I was so stressed out that I actually landed in the hospital and I got a couple of shots of Demerol to my right shoulder, which felt great. And I realized that when I'm very stressed out, I have physical pain when I'm stressed out and it always happens in my right shoulder. And I became so stressed out and so tense that I actually had like muscle separation, like a part of my muscle, it like detached itself or something crazy like that. I forget exactly what the doctor said, but basically it was a lot of Demerol for a while to sort of just be in pain and also do this job. And so on May 31st, 2017, we graduated the class. On June 1st, we went to lunch with the last 50 bucks in the bank account. Beers all around. I went back to the office. I swept the floor. I locked the door and I left. And the next day I started my business and I never looked back. And at the time I was working on a weight loss and health blog. I had a podcast. None of it was monetized, but I was just trying to figure out at the time. This is definitely going down the crapper here. What's next for me? And as I was laying in the hospital bed, as I was crying every night at home, and my husband was like, why aren't you quitting? And the joke was, I quit everything. So why aren't you quitting? And I was like, I just can't. I feel like I need to see this through. I really felt like I needed to see who I could become. by going through this. And what I became was an entrepreneur. And the thought I had going to bed that night was if I could work half as hard for myself as I did for this guy that we basically staged a mutiny against, I'd be doing great in life. And I would never work that hard for anybody ever again. And so I get up the next day and started a business. I sat down at my kitchen table with my laptop. I get on Odesk, which is now known as Upwork. And I started bidding on jobs. And I was like, I'll just be a freelancer for a while. I'll figure it out. And my very first gig was creating an online course for somebody, which was really funny because it's taken me this long to realize I should probably be doing that on a full-time basis. But that was how I became a full-time entrepreneur. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. So dramatic. Yeah. No, your pivotal moment was in that hospital. My pivotal moment was a panic attack in the middle of New York city. There's always that pivotal moment of there's no return after this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. And we had a lot of work to do. My ex boss and I, we reconciled after the fact, I didn't speak to him for a long time. He had some personal issues and, and so we touched base later. And one of the things that he said to me, he, he actually apologized to me and, and had said to me, you know, in hindsight, I see now that I set you up for failure. And I was like, I don't see it like that at all. Like you gave me my life that I have now. And, and I thanked him and it was such an interesting exchange because he, he had a lot of shame and embarrassment about the way he had acted. And I was like, listen, if you did not do that, I would be working for someone else right now. I would not have the life I've always wanted. I needed that push. I had to experience that because of my laziness, my lackadaisy nature. I'm an entitled white woman. I was like, I shouldn't have to do all these things. And then that happened to me. And I was like, yeah, all right, fine. I could punch it for myself. I can do that. And so that was pivotal. And to have that reconcile, to close that loop later, I made a lot of meaning out of that experience for myself to realize that It shouldn't have come to that. I should have been able to get up and do this. I wanted it always, but I couldn't see a path forward. And it wasn't until my back was against the wall that I had to make the decision. It was me or them. And so I chose myself. because I didn't know how else I could show up for someone else in that moment. And, and I cherish it now. I actually think about it very fondly. Like I stopped, you know, swearing about it and I stopped talking crap about them. And, and I started really being grateful for, I'm sorry that your life fell apart because that is what happened. And that's why things went bad. But as a result of that, I came out of those ashes so much stronger and, And everyone we worked with did. Everyone went on to do amazing things. And so it was a very collective downfall, but in such an empowering way. Yeah. And

SPEAKER_01:

now you're empowering others because you're such a kick-ass woman. You're just thriving in what you do. And yes, I did swear because sometimes I do, but every time I get together with Heather, I want to swear more. And that's

SPEAKER_00:

just, I swear a lot. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, do you swear on this Melissa? Cause I swear a lot and I've already said crap twice and that's not the word I use.

SPEAKER_01:

So lately I do swear a lot more and that's just my, my phase. I'm bringing back my nurse phase where I swear and I have to, I have to Remember that I have kids in the house. But now you've gone from being that startup person that you always were to a CEO. You're not even just an entrepreneur. You're a CEO now. Tell us about that transition.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I blew up a lot. Is that the word? Blew up? I growed up. I growed up. Whatever. I glow up. I became an adult this quarter. Let me tell you, I am adulting at, uh, High rate right now. Yeah. So it's so funny talking about pivotal moments. I was just talking with my business coach about this a few weeks ago. So I had planned to take a program. I'm doing a program now with Sarah Roach Lewis called Seven Figure Confidence. And Sarah is actually in the interest of transparency. She's actually a former client of mine. She'd gone through my program. She created Seven Figure Confidence with me and sold it under a different name for a year and then re-upped it for Seven Figure Confidence. And I was like, I think that's what I need, weirdly enough. And I should say that I actually don't see what my clients create. So they use my system and I support them, but I don't need to know about their expertise in order to help them create courses because I do it through the lens of instructional design. And so I had no idea really what Sarah's program was about, but I knew she was amazing. And I knew that she had the wherewithal to get me where I needed to go. And so I hired her, but before I hired her, we were chatting. I went to her book launch in Prince Edward Island. She wrote a book called called She Rules. And I went to her book launch just to support her as a friend. I actually had never met her in real life. We were like internet friends and clients, but I went to Prince Edward Island and I met her and she was adorable. Just the sweetest woman, but also like move, please. I have places to go. I have things to do. And I loved her attitude. And so we were chatting at a Montana's in Prince Edward Island in November. And I was telling her how I'm never hiring anybody. And I was really drinking a lot of Kool-Aid from a guy named Paul Jarvis. He wrote a book called Company of One. And I highly recommend the book, actually, if you're a solo entrepreneur and you're trying to figure out how to get your business to six figures on your own. He has great actionable advice for that. And so I was really drinking this Kool-Aid from Paul Jarvis around. No, it's just me. I'm going to use, I'll do all the things I have to do. I'll use all the resources and tools. And then I was chatting with Sarah and she asked me, you know, why do you think you can't do this? And I was like, what? I could, I could do it. Okay. Could I do it? And I had this very transformational moment of why do I keep telling myself I'm not a good manager? I wouldn't be a good leader or I don't want to deal with people. This is the story I've had for my entire life. I don't like people. I don't want to deal with people. And she was like, that's just so not true of you. And I was like, you're you're right, actually. So I took that away and I thought about it. And I confessed to her later as I was working with her that my secret, I've had a secret and I've talked about it. tiny little bit, but I never imagined it fully. And the secret was I want a giant training company. I want a huge company. I want a giant corporation. I want lots of employees. I want to make millions of dollars. I want to have a global impact. I am that person inside. That is what I really want. And I run a podcast and I talk about it a little bit on the podcast. I talk a little bit about how I see this vision for myself sometimes, but I never let it fully come to an idea and I never mapped it out and I never saw it. And so after talking to Sarah, she challenged me around, you know, how come you don't see yourself doing that because you could be doing more. And under Paul Jarvis's message there, the message is always, you know, hold back and resist the urge to do more, do the thing you're meant to do and do it very well, but don't go chasing shiny objects. And so I, I sort of deflected that for a long time. And so I had said to Sarah, you know, I, The moment changed. What changed for me was when I let myself believe the thought that I actually did want to have a big company. And I did actually want to be a CEO. I don't want to play small anymore. I have the skills, knowledge, and ability to do this. And I am actually a great leader. I'm a great thought leader. I'm a great manager. I have lots of evidence to support that. But I just didn't let it in. And then I did. And as soon as I did let it in, same thing. I was like, excuse me. Just take one step to the left. I'm coming through. And when I let myself see it, I could see it all. I always imagined my name on the front of a building. And I used to really poo-poo on that and be like, oh, that's silly. You know, that's so silly. And there's certain things you have to have to be able to do that. And so I just started putting those things in place. I read a lot of books and I do the things the books say, and some of it works and some of it doesn't. But for the most part, I can action any piece of advice that feels valid to me. So I started actioning advice very quickly and I saw for myself what I thought could be created in the world. And I just trusted that I've gotten this far. I could go further if I wanted to, if I really wanted to, that really the only thing standing in my way was me. And that sounds really cliche, but it's a cliche because it's true. And so I just, I also took a step to the left and kind of let the person I was meant to be come to the forefront. And she's like kicking ass and taking names. And the way I saw it and the way I kind of let go of the drama of it, because there's been almost none, is I felt tasked to do this. So it wasn't that solopreneur Heather became a CEO. it was like there was a CEO that tasked me with this job of building this company. And that's how I thought of it. Like there was another version of me out there that's waiting for me to catch up. And she has asked me to do this and I'm showing up to do the job I've been asked to do. And that was how I did it all without a lot of drama. I just thought of it like, well, I did it for that guy on the couch that day. And I showed up and ran that company and found the money and paid the taxes and settled the accounts and that's CEO stuff. And I did that all for someone else. And so I saw myself five years in the future. And the thought I had was I'm making decisions today for what will be five years from now, which was a lot of investment, a lot of money, a lot of time, but I did it really quickly. So that was in November. It's now April. I have three full-time employees. We just did$120,000 in revenue this quarter. That was my best quarter to date. And we are producing at the level that four people should be. And I think what I did differently, how I approached this, was I had a very clear idea of what each person would be. And even though I couldn't see who they were in my head, I knew what those roles would produce and what that would do for me to allow me to show up and do things in the business differently. And I just let it all go. I was like, you know what? I'm not perfect. You don't need to be perfect either. And so that was a real transformation for me was the challenge of how come you're not saying out loud what you really want?

SPEAKER_01:

And I love it because I remember at the retreat that we were at, you were saying, yeah, I'm not going to have staff. I'm not going down that. So I actually dropped my phone the first time I saw that you were hiring. I'm like, oh, wow, Heather, like what had happened there? Because yeah, you were like six weeks later, just for context. That was six weeks later. Yeah. Yeah. You were adamant. I'm not having staff. Yeah. But it's, it's been beautiful. And I love how you referenced that you're seeing yourself from five years and that's what you're going to Matthew. One of the Matthew McConaughey sayings is don't compare yourself to somebody else. Compare yourself to, to 10 years from now, like chase that person. Don't chase somebody else's dream. Chase your own dream from 10 years from now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And the other, that's a really great thought. And I think that, the piece of that that I hear very glaringly is your own. And working with Sarah, one of the things that I was able to let go of the control of was that I had to build a business that suited other people. And she gave me some really great advice. The advice was start the way you wish to proceed. And from the minute I started interviewing people, I was like, here's how it is. This is how I am. I'm a lot. I'm going to ask for a lot. I'm going to need a lot. We produce like crazy in this company. And it's just me. I'm currently doing the job of four people. So just buckle up. And I didn't make apology for it. And I stepped into that role very naturally, feeling confident that I could figure this out. But also, I didn't have to figure it out alone. And The serendipity of this is that I ended up hiring three people that I knew and they're all in my community. They're all within 25 kilometers of where I live. So we've created jobs locally. And the interesting thing is that each of them reached out to me individually and didn't just blindly apply for the job. They each literally wrote me on Facebook and they were like, I see what you're doing. This is of interest to me. Here's how I think I could help. What do you think? And I was like, yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I like that process better. You didn't have to go through the millions of resumes.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I didn't even get any, to be honest. What's funny is most people don't understand what I do. And the resumes I did get were very vague. And people struggled to articulate how they could inject themselves into it. And I understand that because of the kind of company that I have. But what I liked was the... their approach of like, we know you and we get you and we can support what you're doing because we know how you are. And I was like, the trust was a big thing for me. It was like, I need to be able to trust people and to ask for things without shame and to not have to explain myself. And, and, you know, there's leadership, but then there's like, can we just do this? And I think there are actually two different things. So yeah, Yeah, there's been a lot of transformation. There's been a lot of fast movement. It all feels really good. It's all working. And now I just have a different role in the company. I'm not the muscle anymore, which is how I describe my team. Like they are the muscle and I'm the vision and it's working. So it's exciting. Yeah. Scary as hell, but like really exciting.

SPEAKER_01:

So how does it feel now that you're starting to live that peace? that you just dreamt a few weeks ago and now you're actually actioning it out?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's such a great question because I have, oh my God, I feel like I could talk about it forever. But I think the key thing is that I'm finding whatever drama, fear, scarcity I'm feeling and I'm experiencing, they're not actually my thoughts. And a lot of what I thought this was going to be came from what people told me about hiring, came from what people told me having a team was going to be like my own experience being part of a team and what a gong show I thought that was. I've only ever had one or two experiences with teams where we worked like clockwork. And funny enough, two of the guys that I hired come from that team. We've all worked together previously. And so I think the thing What's interesting is that I'm finding out entrepreneurs are lied to on a regular basis about what this is really like. And a lot of that is based on bullshit so we can sell them something. So I go and I sign up for Sarah's program and Sarah's great, but she's telling it like it is. She's like, there's no drama here. There's no need. You're just thinking those thoughts. That's not really how it is. And sometimes we do these things. We make decisions as business owners and we get a lot of hype. around what we think this should be. And I'm going to tell you right now, doing this was the easiest thing that I have ever done in my business. Raising my prices was harder than hiring three people and giving up control over the product. And that means it was time. I think, yeah. I mean, and it comes with experience. Like I definitely couldn't have done it with, you know, one year in, but five years in, I know my business and I know myself well enough to know, I know my work product and which I think is a big deal. You have to really know your work product. But I think, yeah, at five years in, I see something else for myself and I want to share it. You know, like I want people to be like, there's a better way or we could try this. instead, or here's an idea. I'm tired of thinking about it by myself, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

No, it's nice. And it's nice to have those other brains to brainstorm bigger ideas as you grow and you can grow that vision that you have for the company.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, all the cliche around like hire people smarter than you is true. You know, I hired these people who have skills that I've been struggling with and to see you know, to be able to say like, we need to do this and they just go away and cook up a way to make it happen and bring it back. And then we work on it is it's a gift. Like it's, I gave my company a gift by hiring people. And, and I, I think that is really a great way to look at it.

SPEAKER_01:

And now that gift can go to more small businesses that need that gift. Yeah, absolutely. So as we claw back, because we didn't actually ever describe what, Instructional design is, it's more than just creating a course. You do way more than that. So what is it you do now in your company? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So what the company does is we create online courses. So we do that in two ways. One is that we teach entrepreneurs how to create online courses for themselves. We have a DIY solution. It's actually a course. The reason I put it in a course, even though I know it's meta, it makes people's brains hurt. But the reason I put it in a course is because I know entrepreneurs sign up for courses and make time to learn. But then what happens is they don't always have time to go out and execute. And so I've designed my course in such a way that when you sit down to learn, you're actually building your program. So each step, every single day, results in a new piece of your course that didn't exist yesterday. At the end of 30 days, you have a course built. And then we talk about marketing. We talk about selling. The alternative to that is you can hire my team and I to build the course for you. And so we do actually work with organizations and entrepreneurs to create online courses. We're working on five courses right now for a company at West and they hire us on contract. We build all the programming and that program goes out to their subject matter experts who deliver the programming. So we don't deliver in terms of we don't teach, we don't facilitate. We can, but we mostly just subcontract for those positions because we're course creators. So instructional design, it's a framework. It's a theory. It's a field of practice within adult education. And the thing that I really harp on all the time is that we tend to come to online courses from a marketing perspective. But based on my background and my education, I come to it from the principles of adult learning. And there are 12 main principles of adult learning. And so I apply that in everything that I do. And I use those frameworks to build online courses that are actionable. really the instructional design piece is about seeing the big picture and seeing all the moving pieces that contribute to a result at the end. So right now, I've hired a curriculum developer three weeks ago, and right now I'm training him up on how to develop curriculum the way I develop curriculum. And he doesn't need to be an instructional designer to do that because as an instructional designer, I develop the frameworks for him to be able to use with our subject matter experts to create those online courses. And like I said, I learned that 20 years ago in the military because Thank you so much. where I can make my mark is in creating really great content that teaches people how to do things they couldn't do before. And so there are lots of very academic ways of describing instructional design. And there's all kinds of instructional design theory. And I know all of it and I hate it and I have no use for it whatsoever. My entrepreneur brain takes over when I start thinking about instructional design because it's about problem solving. And that's what entrepreneurs do. And so the way I come at this is very different than an academic would come at it. I follow a lot of instructional designers on LinkedIn and they're great, but like they put me to sleep because I'm like, I don't want to talk$10 words about education. I want to talk about, can you teach me to do something I couldn't do before? And if all you're doing is talking at me about the theory, that's boring. It doesn't help me be better. I don't need more knowledge. I need more skills, right? And so that's how I approach it. And I was I was in a trade mission to Boston a couple of weeks ago. I signed up. So I'm a 100 percent woman owned business. I'm a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces and I identify as a person with a disability. So I signed up for this program for women veterans. veteran-owned businesses with disabilities, and they sent me to Boston virtually to talk to these organizations. And I met with this one guy who worked with NASCAR, and I was like, oh my God, what? Work with NASCAR? Please take me under your wing, because I'm just a huge car nut. Anyway... When he started talking to me about needs assessments and about the different ally theories and the way that learning styles integrate into NASCAR, I was like, learning styles are defunct. You just lost me. I was like, the fact that you're still reading those books and you think that that's a real thing tells me that we're not playing at the same field. And he's playing at a much higher level than I am. But I was like, that's not where I want to make my mark. Actually, I don't want to do corporate. I'd love to work with NASCAR, but not like that. Like if that's how they're doing it, I don't want to do training like that. And actually, I dropped out of the trade mission when I had that conversation. I started declining phone calls with organizations because it actually helped me realize that my superpower is helping entrepreneurs. at boots on the ground level. Give them skills. I don't need to talk at them with$10 words like this guy. And so I backed out and I was like, nope, this is of no value to me. The value was, I don't want to do this. And so I, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You learn your lessons and you feel your way out. So I'd be interested to hear, because since the pandemic happened, there is course galore going on online. Yeah. And I know I've signed up for quite a few and I was completely underwhelmed because I don't feel like it actually taught me anything. And I could say, well, that was just because I already know that subject matter. But it was like, no, I was going to that to learn about that subject matter. And I just feel like I learned a spiel. So what are your thoughts on this expansion of all of these online courses that don't tend to have any framework behind them?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I love that question. So many thoughts. First of all, I'll ask you a question. So a lot of these courses are 37, 47, 97 bucks. One of the things I always say to my clients when we're working on pricing is when we work on pricing, the question is when was the last time a$37 course changed your life? And the answer is usually never. What ends up happening at that level is you're solidifying or you're validating what you already know. So you're not even getting introductory concepts. You're getting pre-introductory concepts. Those programs are usually funnels for the next program and the next program, and it starts going up from there. And that's all fine and dandy. There's sales, and then there's building the course. But when it comes to building the course, what ends up happening is so many people focus so much on the selling and the marketing that we, number one, forget to build the course. Number two, think we can build it after we sold it. And we're validating the idea by selling it, but that's not actually how that works. And then the third piece is, is we're too general as an industry in course creation. We're too general about what we're promising. So I always use the health and wellness industry for this and I'm not crapping on them, but it's just, it's low hanging fruit in terms of the way they market themselves. They say things like, take my course and you'll feel better. But it's not the course that makes you feel better. It's what you learn in the course. And feeling better is subjective, not objective. So when I teach people how to create courses, I teach them how to create objective courses. Objective means fact. So is it a fact that you feel better? Well, it depends if it's a Tuesday or Wednesday. So we can't use that. We don't use generic like that. What we do do is we look at, at the end of this three week or four week course, you will have a meal plan that you can follow that will help you to eat better, or that will help you to eat three to five vegetables a day. Like we make it very measurable. And there's three key things that I teach people to do. One is you have to be clear about the promise. The other is there has to be action involved. So it can't just be reading and watching videos. They have to actually do something. And the core of doing is doing something they didn't do before or applying their existing skill set in a way that they've never done before. And then the third piece is, can we check a box to say that they did that? Is it measurable? And measurement is not, I feel better. Measurement is, I have a meal plan. Did you create a meal plan? Yes, I created a meal plan. Great. So what I do and what I'm very good at is seeing what the actual results should be and helping my clients to pinpoint what the actual problem is. So people say, I don't feel well. I want to lose weight. Tends to be the first thought that they have, but it might actually not be their weight at all. It could be a hundred different things. So we get to the core of what is the actual root cause and we solve the root cause problem with the course. The topical problem in the marketing, because that's the language people use, you want to feel better, you want to lose weight, you want to have a meal plan. but then you teach to the root problem. So what happens is if you are a subject matter expert and you don't understand about developing educational content for action, for transformation, you end up giving a ton of information that people can't do anything with. And that's what is happening in the industry right now. The other side of that coin is when you have no knowledge at all and you feel compelled to create a course and you sort of drink the Kool-Aid of, well, you only need a 10% advantage or you only need to be 10 steps ahead And I'm not saying that doesn't work, but that's a scary way to live your life. You want to be 10 pages ahead in the math book. What if you've got a keener student? And it doesn't create transformation. What it does is it creates a workload for you that becomes unsustainable. And you think you record it as you go and then you put it on the internet, but Most times we're flying by the seat of our pants. No transformation is happening. It requires stillness. It requires thought. It requires reflection and it requires intention to learn. We don't learn naturally. We have to intentionally learn. And so, yeah, that's my 20 years of experience in a nutshell around why I create courses the way I do, because most people are just like market, market, market, market, market, market. And oh, and just put a couple of videos on YouTube and then link them in your email and you're done. And the delivery method doesn't matter. It's not about, you know, do people like videos or do people like reading? What I teach and what I know is that Learning styles are defunct. The theory of learning styles is no longer relevant in the adult education world because we all have too many to cater to. We're not just kinesthetic. We're not just physical. We're not just auditory. We are all of it. We have five senses. We have all of it. And so what I teach is we create content that speaks to the result you're trying to get. And a lot of people just don't stop to think about that. They think, oh, everyone loves video. I'll do video. But if what they need is a checklist, the video is no good to them. And if what they need is a video, the checklist is no good to them. But we think more is better. And the programming that I create and what I teach to my clients and what I create for my clients is less is more. If I can tell you in 10 words how to do something or I can show you in five, I will show you in five. And then you can get on with your life. So people get bogged down and we need lots of introductory videos and we need lots of... Here, read these five articles. And I'm like, no, I haven't read an article in years. No, I'm not doing it. So yeah, the job is paring down. You know, a lot of it is like cut it. I call it the cutting room floor. And the cutting room floor becomes your podcast or becomes your blog or becomes your ebook. It's not wasted. It just doesn't belong in the course. And I love your

SPEAKER_01:

methods because I went to your free workshop and I've been selling a group program for a while. And you helped me get, pull out those words, the exact words that I needed for it. And I've sold that group program on and on and on. And I was always told it was too generic and like, but I'm helping women leave one job and go to the other, but no, it's like way more specific. The wording, I'm not going to say it on here, but it's way more specific, but it's shorter. Yeah. Yeah. So your methods

SPEAKER_00:

do work because they get straight to the point. Yeah. And it is, and it's, it's ironic because I'm really wordy, obviously. I actually, I struggle a lot with my own marketing because I have a lot to say, but when I employ my own methods, it gets better and better and better. And the key thing that I try to remember and practice, you know, practice what you preach. The key thing is you show up with one idea in one moment and And you see it through to the end and then you move on to the next idea. And I think what happens, especially when we talk about the industry, the course creation industry and selling is we forget it is actually adult education. We forget we are actually selling education. We're not selling courses. We're selling education. And that's how I always approach it is the course is the conduit. It's the vehicle. It could be anything. It's what's in it that matters. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's been lovely so far. So we'll get to our last couple of questions. Who motivates you every day or who or what motivates you? Oh,

SPEAKER_00:

good question. It changes, honestly. It changes a lot. I gravitate towards different people depending on what I need at the time. Right now, I am obsessed with Stacey Bayman. Stacey Bayman is a life coach, staceybayman.com. And she teaches selling in a way that I've never seen in my life. And I've actually employed a lot of what I've learned from her and it's resulted in cash in the bank. And what I like about her is her ability to sit there and give you information about selling that is clear and concise and actionable. And it is very rare. I take a lot of programming. I listen to a lot of podcasts. I read a lot of books. And it is very rare for me to see someone playing at that level. She makes millions of dollars who is still taking the time to speak to people in the beginning, middle, and top of her sales funnel. So wherever I'm at in my journey, I find her work very relevant because sales are always relevant. I love Brooke Castillo of the Life Coach School. And even though I teach creating courses, I am also a certified life coach. And so I hang around in the life coach industry quite a bit. I think one of the reasons I've been able to create what I've created in the world is because I do a lot of mind management and I do a lot of professional development on my mindset. And those are two women that I really admire. really adore and I respect. And then Mike Michalowicz is the man. I will buy, read, do anything. I'll have to look him up.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think I've ever heard of him.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my God. He's profit first. So he's the profit first guy. Okay. Yeah. Read that book. It's a Bible study. I have money in the bank all the time now because of Mike Michalowicz and I should really email him and be like, you have totally transformed the financial state of my business. He taught me how to manage money and I'm a grown 40 year old woman. And I was like, read it in a book, how to manage money in a business. He has two other books that I devoured. One is the pumpkin plan, which is cutting off the dead weight in your business. The products that don't sell that are, you know, erroneous that are taking too long to convert. And then Clockwork. Clockwork is the book I read last year that allowed me to plan to take a whole month off in my business and come back to money in the business. And I'm reading his book right now, Fix This Next. which is a book you can pick up at any point. And of course, I'm reading the sales chapter. But he created Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs as a tool that is available to everyone, of course, but is used heavily and referenced in the adult education world. And this guy, frigging genius, created a hierarchy of business needs. And when I saw it, I was like, oh, Mike, you have my heart. I love you so much. So he understands the foundation of business is cash, And without it, everything else fails. And so, yeah, I'm drinking a lot of his Kool-Aid right now.

SPEAKER_01:

Awesome. No, I'll have to get the profit first because as you know, as we recently discussed, I've just started reading the Amanda Francis book. So I'm just starting that money transition because I was too... focused on building that solid foundation before I looked at the money. I probably should have done it the other way, but everything in my life I've done backwards. I had to get first and then I got married. I think that's just entrepreneurs. I think we're like, we'll figure it out. Exactly. Well, it'll get there at some point. So before we go into the last question, how can our audience get in touch with you or learn more about you?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. The easiest way to get in touch with me is through Instagram. My handle is just at Heather DeVoe, my full name. And my website is HeatherDeVoe.com. And we love chatting with entrepreneurs about courses. So welcome to book a call, have a chat, slide into my DMs, whatever you want. I'm always happy to chat with people.

SPEAKER_01:

Awesome. So who inspires you? That's my favorite question. Who or what? And I've changed it to who or what, because some people are inspired by things that are not humans.

SPEAKER_00:

Possibility. I think if we're talking non-human, I think I'm highly inspired and motivated by possibility. I grew up in a small town, a small mining town where you had three choices. You either, you know, became a teacher, a nurse or, or a doctor or a lawyer, or you left town because there was a concept of there was nothing else for you here. And I came back to this small town, much to the surprise and dismay of many people who thought you got out. Why would you go back? And I was like, this town is more than you think it is. And these people are more than you think they are. And I see possibility in people. And I think, yeah, I'm inspired by the possibility. No, I love

SPEAKER_01:

that. That is probably the most unique answer we've had. And I love that. You're inspired by something growing and obviously you're growing your business. So that's a stage you're in. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for coming. you for listening to raise the anchor brought to you by alizé creative solutions we hope you found that story very inspiring we look forward to bringing you more this week subscribe to the podcast to stay in the loop don't forget to leave a five-star review spread the love even further we hope you have a smooth day

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