Why your Sales Emails Suck and How to Fix Them with Dave Rodenbaugh

103 - This week, we're going to dive into a crucial topic: how to make your emails suck less. This is the poetic and straight-to-the-point style of this week's guest, Dave Rodenbaugh!

You'll Learn

• Why Dr. Robert Cialdini's Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion is a must-read for all marketers
• What the Seven Principles of Persuasion are, and how to apply them to email marketing 
• How to maintain brand consistency across channels and messages
• How to use scarcity to your advantage to create a desire for your product

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Transcript

[0:02] Welcome to Email Einstein, a podcast by Flowium.
[0:06] It's time to start honoring your inner marketing Einstein.
[0:09] Tune in for the data-driven tips that'll make you a marketing genius.
[0:13] Here you'll find email marketing formulas and tips straight from the brilliant mad scientists at Flowium.
[0:18] It's time for your emails to start earning more money.
[0:21] It's time to unleash your Einstein.
[0:24] Hello, hello everyone and welcome to Flowium Podcast.
[0:29] I'm your host Vera Sadlak and today I'm joined by Dave Roddenbaugh, email marketing guru and founder of reCAPTCHA.io.
[0:37] reCAPTCHA helps send effective target emails, abandonment cart emails that don't suck.
[0:44] I love how you guys describe, describe it on your, on your website.
[0:48] It's like short and to the point.
[0:50] Say hi, Dave.
[0:51] Hey everybody, thank you for having me on today, Vera.
[0:54] It's an honor to be part of Email Einstein's here.
[0:57] I'm excited to talk with you today.
[0:58] You're definitely one of those Einstein people and we love talking to email marketing nerds and I'm assuming you are one of them.
[1:07] Well, you definitely are because you've been in email marketing since 2012, I think you mentioned, or like, yeah, am I wrong?
[1:14] 2012, huh?
[1:16] Wow.
[1:16] Yeah, that's when I first got into it.
[1:17] You know, I learned, so I have a bunch of friends who are SaaS founders.
[1:21] And so when I was doing, I was running my own business as a WordPress plugin guy and, you know, email marketing in 2012 in the WordPress space was extremely novel and I saw how how everybody was getting success with email marketing.
[1:35] I'm like, oh, I should try that in WordPress.
[1:37] And it like went over phenomenally.
[1:39] So like just the uncommon level of success I saw with it was like, wow, you know, email has amazing potential.
[1:46] But that's just, you know, that was just the start of my journey.
[1:48] I had so much to learn from that.
[1:50] But yeah, that's how I got started.
[1:51] Oh, wow.
[1:52] Oh, wow.
[1:52] So you got into email marketing before it was even trendy, right?
[1:56] Yeah.
[1:56] Because like right now everyone is doing email marketing.
[1:59] And back then it was A big thing, apparently.
[2:03] And yeah, I like how on the Really Good Emails conference, this one or on the previous one, I don't remember.
[2:09] I think it was Robbie Fitzgerald who said that email is like a good guy that your mom wants you to marry.
[2:16] It's like a good, reliable, reliable guy who your mom wants you to marry.
[2:21] And like social media is that like, you know, like a badass boyfriend that you have in high school that is like wearing this leather jacket has a motorcycle and email is— it has always, always been there and always will be here.
[2:35] I like how he sort of like described this dynamic.
[2:38] Hashtag facts, Vera.
[2:40] Facts.
[2:41] That's totally true.
[2:42] Yeah, total, total facts.
[2:44] Yeah, absolutely.
[2:45] Absolutely.
[2:46] Cool.
[2:46] Dave, before we go to all of the serious and juicy questions, let's do some quick blitz Q&A just to get to know you better.
[2:53] Okay.
[2:54] Great.
[2:54] Cool.
[2:55] Okay.
[2:55] Mountain or ocean vacation?
[2:58] Ooh, I like the combination of the two if I'm being totally honest.
[3:02] But if you're talking about winter, it's always ocean, and in summer, it's always mountain.
[3:07] See, for most of people, it's like other way around, right?
[3:11] It's like usually the other way.
[3:13] I think it's a Colorado thing, right?
[3:14] It is a Colorado thing.
[3:16] Like, the mountains are amazing in the summer here.
[3:18] Like, it's my absolute favorite time.
[3:20] To go up there, so that's why I answered that way.
[3:22] I mean, I live in Vancouver, so I don't even have to choose.
[3:26] I'm like, yes, I'm bragging, but we do have both mountains and the ocean, and that's like the best thing ever when you're like snowboarding in the morning and then you can go down for like a relaxing boat ride or like a canoe trip or something.
[3:40] This is like the best.
[3:41] Exactly.
[3:42] Awesome, okay, online shopping or in-store shopping?
[3:46] Ugh, you know, it's funny, as an email marketer, I hate going to stores.
[3:52] So like my wife and I have been pioneers of online shopping since our very first kid.
[3:58] Like I remember in 2004 when our oldest was born, we shopped on Amazon for Christmas for the entire family that year.
[4:07] And we were like, "Oh, this is amazing." We didn't have to go anywhere.
[4:12] Like, you know, we were exhausted parents, little sleep happening.
[4:15] We had an infant.
[4:16] We didn't want to deal with the whole thing.
[4:18] It was cold outside.
[4:18] Like online shopping is where it's at.
[4:21] I love being able to like in the middle of my day, take 5 minutes, click, buy something, and it shows up tomorrow.
[4:26] Like that is awesome.
[4:27] The best, the best.
[4:28] That's why we're in this industry, Dave.
[4:30] Yeah.
[4:31] Awesome.
[4:31] Okay.
[4:32] Okay.
[4:32] Shopify or WooCommerce?
[4:34] Ooh.
[4:35] Ooh.
[4:37] You know, I would say it depends on whether you are looking to just test a store, get it up running and have low friction.
[4:48] In that case, I'd pick Shopify.
[4:49] If you're looking for something that you want to customize the heck out of it, WordPress.
[4:54] And you know, both of them have their trade-offs as you go into the scaling or the setup side of it.
[4:59] But you know, at reCAPTCHA, we support both of them.
[5:02] I've long been in the WordPress space.
[5:04] So, you know, Woo has a special place in my heart and there's definitely a place for both of them in the world.
[5:08] But you know, if you're out there, you're just testing something and you want like a frictionless experience, Shopify is the way to go.
[5:15] Cool.
[5:15] Cool.
[5:16] Good one.
[5:16] If you, Dave, had to pick one song that played every time you entered and exited the room, what would it be?
[5:26] Well, uh, it would probably be the one that I picked for a conference that I spoke at last year, which was High Hopes by Panic!
[5:32] at the Disco.
[5:35] Oh wow, that's an unexpected choice.
[5:37] Panic!
[5:38] at the Disco, huh?
[5:39] Yes.
[5:39] Yeah, there's kind of a fun story that goes along with that, but it embarrasses my youngest daughter, so I won't tell it.
[5:45] Yeah, I, I had a feeling that you probably like get the inspiration for— from your kids, because like my brother and he's teen right now.
[5:54] He loves Panic!
[5:55] at the Disco.
[5:56] So yeah, awesome.
[5:57] Cool.
[5:57] So maybe, maybe we'll hear the story some other time.
[6:00] Awesome.
[6:01] Okay, Dave, so for those of you who don't know you, I already briefly introduced you, but like, who is Dave Roddenbaugh and what is reCAPTCHA.io, if I missed anything?
[6:12] Yeah, sure.
[6:13] So I have been a founder for, oh geez, since 2011 at this point.
[6:19] So like 11 years.
[6:21] I've created and sold a variety of different businesses over the years and I have this entrepreneurial spirit going all the way back to having lemonade stands as a child.
[6:32] But I eventually wanted to take full control of my destiny.
[6:38] It was clear that SaaS, a SaaS-based business was going to be the way to do that because recurring revenue is pretty much the holy grail of any business out there.
[6:48] I've done freelancing for over 20 years and freelancing is great.
[6:52] You get these long-term projects, but when that project closes out, you got to find something else.
[6:56] Right?
[6:56] Yep.
[6:57] Constantly in that mode of feast or famine, feast or famine.
[7:00] You either have too much work or you don't have enough.
[7:03] That treadmill's okay, but at some point I was like, "All right.
[7:06] I want something where I don't have to do that all the time." So eventually along my entrepreneurial journey, I found reCAPTCHA and I'd had a little bit of a taste of being in e-commerce, but this business came up for sale.
[7:17] The founders were looking to get rid of it.
[7:19] They ran their own e-commerce store and it was significantly larger than what reCAPTCHA was doing at that point.
[7:24] So it was kind of a distraction to them.
[7:26] I was like, "That business is perfect for me." So it got into a deeper level of e-commerce, which I was already interested in from just doing my own sales online.
[7:36] And I had already had some experience with email marketing.
[7:39] So that was a nice little fit in the Venn diagram of Dave there.
[7:43] And yeah, so it gave me a chance to grow something that I thought I really understood that seemed like it had some real strong potential and something that was interesting to me.
[7:56] I was proud to show it off to my family.
[7:59] So what does reCAPTCHA do?
[8:01] Nurture is email marketing for a variety of e-commerce platforms out there, Shopify, WooCommerce, BigCommerce, Magento, Easy Digital Downloads, and some other smaller ones.
[8:11] We are like the sweet spot of a tool if you are an in-house marketing team that is, you know, that has email marketing on your list, you want something that's easy to use and helps you get that job done because you're already overworked and trying to do a bunch of other things, right?
[8:29] You're probably managing social media, you're probably doing your ad spend, you're probably dealing, you know, with promotions and other stuff like that.
[8:36] So if you're in-house marketing, you're saddled with all of these jobs.
[8:40] And this is one of those things that has to get done and you've got to do it well, but you probably don't have the time or the focus to do that.
[8:45] So reCAPTCHA really helps get that stuff done without complexity and workflows and trying to hire other agencies to do it, you know, things like that.
[8:54] So that's a little bit about me and a little bit about the tool.
[8:57] Anything you want to ask about that?
[8:59] No, no, that's, that's awesome, Dave.
[9:01] And you definitely guys, I mean, your speech on the conference, I liked how you looked at the email marketing.
[9:08] You kind of are seeing like the big picture of email marketing.
[9:11] And I like that you approach email marketing not just as the, those like salesy emails, but you kind of see the bigger pictures and like the emotions behind the email marketing.
[9:22] And I really, really enjoyed your talk on the, on the conference.
[9:26] And you were talking about the book, like one book that probably has forever changed the advertising, the Cialdini's book book about the influence and the principles of the influence and the psychology of persuasion.
[9:39] Basically, I honestly think it's a must-read for all advertisers, and I'm really glad that you're here today because we got to talk to you about all of those email principles and about those principles and how you use them in email.
[9:52] Because if you think about it, no matter if you're selling the lemonade and you have your lemonade state, or if you're selling whatever socks or mattress, at the end of the day, conversion Conversion is the decision, and all of the decisions we make in life are somehow based or like influenced by our emotions.
[10:11] So naturally conversion specialists, they use emotions to influence decision-making, and many of them actually begins with Cialdini's Emotionally Charged Principles of Persuasion.
[10:21] So what are these principles?
[10:23] Like, what are they, Dave?
[10:26] Yeah.
[10:26] So they're Cialdini's.
[10:28] Yeah.
[10:29] Like you said, if anybody has not read the book Influence by Dr. Robert Cialdini, again, I will I will totally second and third and fourth and fifth and eighth your recommendation to read it because it is one of those deeply influential works that will change the way that you forever look at copywriting your emails, how you write landing pages.
[10:50] It literally doesn't— there isn't anything that I can think of that it doesn't impact somehow because you basically understand how we as complex, messy, emotional humans work.
[11:00] And once you understand that, all of those other things just naturally become better because you can actually talk to them as human beings, right?
[11:07] So Cialdini basically discovered these 7 principles.
[11:12] Originally there were 6, but he came up with 7 after spending decades as a psychologist in Arizona at the university, trying to figure out what made humans tick, right?
[11:25] So the 7 principles that he's got are belonging, or he calls it unity.
[11:30] There's scarcity, likability, consistency, authority, social proof, and Reciprocity.
[11:37] He studied basically all different kinds of groups of people.
[11:42] He took on sales jobs where these firms were trying to hire him as an actual salesperson.
[11:49] He would go through their training and see what tactics and techniques they were trying to use to sell.
[11:54] He would go and talk to people that were trying to get him to donate to social causes or to donate to religious organizations, or how people were just in advertising were trying to use certain tactics to get him to buy So he studied all of these and found that these 7 things were kind of the common underlying themes of everything.
[12:14] He found like you could take thousands of these tactics and categorize them in one of these 7 buckets, which is really powerful, right?
[12:20] Yeah.
[12:21] Yeah.
[12:21] And Dave, on the conference, when you were like doing your speech, you've started your basically presentation from the belonging principle.
[12:30] And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this was like one of the latest that he has added to the, uh, to the bunch.
[12:37] I think this was like added to like a new version of the book, yet you started your speech from that like principle.
[12:45] Why do you think it's so important?
[12:48] Why it matters so much to email marketers and to e-commerce people in general?
[12:54] Well, that's a fantastic question, Vera.
[12:56] So yeah, you're right.
[12:57] It is the last one that he sort of discovered.
[12:59] He came up with the first 6 and that came out in like 1984, but it was like in the early 2000s.
[13:05] I don't remember exactly when he did the revision where number 7 came out.
[13:08] I wanna say it was like 2006 or 2010.
[13:10] That's considerably later, right, from 1984.
[13:14] And, you know, it took him a while to kind of figure this out because it's both subtle and it's so fundamental at the same time.
[13:23] So what is it?
[13:23] What is belonging?
[13:24] What does unity mean here?
[13:26] So basically, we as humans, we are fundamentally wired to want to be part of things, you know, whether that's groups at school or hanging out with certain friends that share your interests, or, you know, going to other common hobbyists.
[13:44] So maybe you like to fly model airplanes, or maybe you're into ice skating, or maybe you are into mountain biking or running or whatever.
[13:52] You go hang out with people that like to do those things.
[13:55] The reason you like to do that is because you want to be part of something.
[14:00] You always want to be around or part of a group of people that share common values, common interests.
[14:08] And this is why it was so hard to see, because it's just one of those things that's— it's invisible in many ways.
[14:14] And it took Charlie Munger It took Cialdini quite a long time to figure out that, "Oh yeah, the reason that certain advertising tactics are really effective is because we're exploiting this fact that you want to be part of this group, and we can use that notion of belonging or unity to say, 'Look, if you want to be part of this group, here are the things that you get by being part of this group.' Or if you are part of this group, here are things you want to do to be a better member of this group." It's very subtle, but at the same time, it's extremely powerful because of that implicit need to belong.
[14:47] This is why we join Facebook groups online for random, random things that we're interested in, right?
[14:52] We want to be around other people.
[14:54] This is why the internet exploded, because you want to find other people that meet those interests and those needs.
[14:59] And those were hard things to do until the age of the internet.
[15:03] I agree.
[15:03] I agree.
[15:04] And I recently read this article.
[15:07] It actually was the Forbes article that is called— that was called Belonging is the New Customer Loyalty.
[15:13] And basically it was, it was talking about how in the age of like technology and when we have this like myriad of options how to connect with like the customers, we can connect through Facebook, through like Instagram, email, loyalty program, newsletter registration.
[15:31] I mean, all those kind of stuff.
[15:33] It's very tempting to think that this creates a deeper relationship between consumer and brands.
[15:40] However, now, especially after a pandemic or during pandemic, people experience this like deficit in belonging more than ever.
[15:49] And even though we are bombarded with all of this like technology and apps and everything, a deficit, deficit in belonging, like we basically feel more disconnected than ever.
[15:58] That's why the brands who can connect with those in need, basically with everyone on a deeper level, those brands actually win.
[16:07] Absolutely.
[16:07] Strong, strong agree.
[16:09] Yeah.
[16:10] How can you like cultivate a sense of belonging in your email?
[16:14] Oh, yes.
[16:15] So first of all, in order to use any of Cialdini's principles of persuasion, you really have to understand who your audience is.
[16:25] Like it's not enough to just have some lame demographic information to say, oh yeah, I'm looking for men between the ages of 34 and 45 that, you know, like to play golf or— that's not it.
[16:38] That's too weak.
[16:40] That's just, it doesn't help you understand a community.
[16:43] What you really have to know is what drives them to use your product or service.
[16:49] What pains do they experience if they Why don't they use it?
[16:54] What were the things that motivated them to pick you over their competitors?
[16:58] What are the things that they love in their day-to-day life that are adjacent to whatever that product and service are?
[17:05] How does that product or service connect with the rest of them as a human being?
[17:10] Those are not easy questions to answer if you don't talk to customers and you don't do interviews or jobs-to-be-done work or stuff like that.
[17:17] So you really have to get get who it is you're talking to before you can instill a sense of belonging.
[17:23] Because what you do is you go and in those interviews, in those discussions, whether that's through customer support or one-on-one chats or emails, whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
[17:36] You basically look for things that customers say about you, your product, your service, what it is you do for them.
[17:45] Then once you can get that language that your customer speaks, then it's easy It's easier for you to go out and say, "Look, here are what people think about my product or service using their own words," because those are very much like the other words that the person who hasn't used your service is also thinking about.
[18:05] If you use your own words, it's very easy as founders to construct our own narrative inside of our head and say, "Oh, this is how people use it.
[18:12] This is what they're thinking.
[18:13] This is what they want." We're almost always wrong on that one.
[18:17] It's language of the customer, voice of the customer stuff that really helps understand that.
[18:21] And once you can kind of get into your customer's head, then it's very easy for you to say, look, I understand what pains you're experiencing here.
[18:31] Here's how we can make your life better with whatever it is we're doing, whether it's joining this group, whether it's, you know, using our product or, you know, getting the service.
[18:41] Any of those things are easier to promote persuasively if you understand why they are hiring that service or product in the first place.
[18:49] And that's how you cultivate the sense of belonging.
[18:52] You can use some identification of things like the example The example that I used in the presentation was this guy who's wearing some Gymshark attire and he's got the ropes for CrossFit, which to this day, I still don't know what the hell those are called, because I'm just not a CrossFit guy.
[19:07] But when you read the Gymshark email, it doesn't mention the word CrossFit in there anywhere, but it shows this guy who is really super fit swinging these ropes that if you are a CrossFitter, you immediately recognize and immediately identify with that person if that's what you either want to be or what you already are.
[19:25] And so that's how you kind of cultivate belonging is getting somebody to picture themselves using your thing because that's what they either want to do or what they already do.
[19:36] Oh yeah, no, that's, that's definitely a powerful approach.
[19:39] One of my, one of my clients, we're creating this like VIP flow for them.
[19:44] So basically when a customer your like loyal customer is reaching a certain level, they spent a certain amount of money, they will be entered into this like VIP flow.
[19:56] And the first email of the flow is giving them the link to book a quick call with the CEO and founder of the company.
[20:04] Like it's basically like a Calendly link where they can schedule a call, 15-minute call with the founder just to talk to a founder, to get to know the company better.
[20:14] But for us as a brand, this is a great opportunity to hear how the customers sound, to ask them the questions about their pain points and stuff like that.
[20:23] So this is like a two-way communication.
[20:25] And this, this is a very, very powerful tool.
[20:28] If you guys can, can do this, definitely try talking to your customers directly because you will be surprised with all of the insights that you will get from your customers.
[20:40] Believe me, they know more than you about your product because they are the ones who are like using it constantly and who are not influenced by by anything.
[20:50] They, they have not created this product, but they use your product so they can tell you the truth about the product.
[20:57] Awesome.
[20:58] Okay, Dave, let's move to principle number 2, scarcity.
[21:03] That's probably one of the most well-known and used principles in marketing.
[21:07] You can love it, you can hate it, but people are using it all the time.
[21:12] And when people believe something is in short supply, they wanted more.
[21:16] Short supply signals demand.
[21:19] That's why smart marketers use scarcity.
[21:21] Not so smart marketers use scarcity.
[21:24] Tell us more about it.
[21:25] I know you, you had some like excellent examples of what to do and what not to do with, with scarcity marketing.
[21:31] So what are your thoughts?
[21:33] Yeah.
[21:33] So scarcity is definitely something, like you said, it's so strongly used.
[21:38] I would almost go so far as to say it's overused.
[21:41] It's overused to the point where people don't believe it as much anymore.
[21:45] So there's very much skepticism when people see scarcity in an email, hurry up, sale ends soon.
[21:51] And you know, it's funny, I see on Twitter some other email marketers like Val Geiser from Klaviyo.
[21:56] And she's like the day after Memorial Day, she jokingly posted on there and said, okay, everybody brace for all of the, hey, sale extended emails after Memorial Day.
[22:07] And I just laughed because that's absolutely what happens, right?
[22:10] It's because we don't believe the scarcity of the sale ending soon, right?
[22:14] So there's really two kinds of scarcity here.
[22:16] One is there's there's real scarcity and this is very difficult to create.
[22:22] And then there's this fake scarcity, like the sale ending soon.
[22:25] And then, you know, hey, because of extra demand, we've extended the sale.
[22:29] No, you didn't.
[22:30] You were planning on doing this all along because you're trying to get more sales.
[22:33] Stuff like that.
[22:34] Like customers are getting too smart for those kinds of tactics to be believable anymore.
[22:39] So how do you generate real scarcity?
[22:42] The example, and actually, you know, it was honestly hard to find a really good scarcity example where somebody was really creating not false demand from it.
[22:51] So this was AYR, All Year Round, and they had a subject line that basically said, "This will sell out soon," or, "This jean will sell out soon." Taken at face value, that subject line doesn't sound like it's doing a whole lot, but when you opened up the email, they had this amazing banner at the very top that said, "One jean, 38 sizes, 500 people on the waitlist.
[23:16] This will sell out of stock." The first time I saw I'm not even in AYR's target market.
[23:23] And I'm like, "Wow, a jean and 500 people are waiting for it?" It didn't sound like it was a BS marketing tactic.
[23:29] It actually felt very real.
[23:31] And I'm sure that it was.
[23:33] AYR is a DTC brand, so they're not going to be throwing stuff out there to generate false interest on this one here.
[23:39] I genuinely think that whatever that sale that they created there was something that they knew that this was a hot product and they had to deal with these 38 different sizes.
[23:48] That's a difficult thing to manage on a clothing brand is make sure you have all these sizes.
[23:53] Making sure that clothing fits really well is definitely something that everybody struggles with, but I know in women's jeans in particular, that's a real hot button issue.
[24:03] So for somebody to put that front and center in an email and say, "Look, there are 500 people waiting for this.
[24:10] You had better hurry." That motivated me to want to go check it out.
[24:15] I'm not even going to buy the jeans.
[24:17] So that's an example of real scarcity and that works.
[24:22] That's the kind of stuff that really works.
[24:23] But if you tell somebody, hey, sale ending soon, oh, sale extended.
[24:27] Yeah.
[24:27] Especially when people are selling those like courses, you know, like, hey, we have only like 5 discounts left for this online course.
[24:34] And like, and I'm like, yeah, you guys, you have unlimited amount of discount codes.
[24:38] What are you talking about?
[24:39] Right.
[24:39] That's like so frustrating.
[24:40] Yeah.
[24:41] One of my clients actually, I think they are doing an amazing job with scarcity marketing.
[24:46] So basically they have this like a limited, limited collection that they are launching like every few months.
[24:53] And the amount of the product they are launching is really limited and people know that.
[24:58] And you only have like 2 hours window to purchase the product.
[25:02] So they like open the sale at midnight and then at like 2 a.m. the landing page like disappears or like basically it's nonexistent anymore.
[25:11] So you only have like 2 hours to purchase the product and then it's gone.
[25:14] Right.
[25:15] And I think they are doing doing an amazing job because like every time they launch this campaign, this is like their best, best performing campaign.
[25:20] And, uh, yeah, they, they are doing an amazing job.
[25:23] And, uh, scarcity can be overused, yet it's still a very powerful tool when you use it correctly, right?
[25:31] Right.
[25:31] Product drops are a great example of how to make scarcity work for you in a positive, real way.
[25:36] I've seen that happen with a men's hygiene brand, uh, and they do the same thing.
[25:39] They did it around Black Friday and they did it right before, uh, Christmas holiday.
[25:43] Same kind of thing, like it was a limited release and boom, it generated a ton They sold out, done.
[25:49] Like, great.
[25:50] You know, that's the kind of thing that works really well.
[25:52] Right, right.
[25:53] Okay, awesome.
[25:54] Let's move to principle number 3, likability.
[25:58] I feel like likability and belonging, they are like tightly connected, but what is likability in email marketing and how can you use it to improve your email marketing?
[26:11] Sure, sure.
[26:12] So likability is interesting because it basically says that if I have two people with the same information, let's say, you know, we have person number 1 who is pretty charismatic, pretty likable, and person number 2 that just isn't.
[26:25] And we give them the exact same information.
[26:28] So they are using the precise same pitch, the same words, the same script, everything.
[26:33] If I had those people stand up in front of you, the likable person is actually going to be more persuasive to you than the other person who isn't.
[26:42] That's what likability says.
[26:44] So, you know, there's some pluses and minuses to this.
[26:46] So, you know, likability has a little bit of a dark side to it.
[26:49] You know, it kind of explains why we trust politicians that, you know, they seem very likable, they seem very charismatic, but at the same time, they're just filling your head with misinformation.
[26:57] You're like, wait a minute, why is that working?
[26:59] Well, it's because of likability.
[27:01] You look at somebody and you, you, you like them, but whatever it is that they say, you're going to trust it even if it's wrong.
[27:07] And that's kind of dangerous.
[27:08] Right.
[27:08] But, um, you're right that likability and belonging go together because we don't want to hang out in a group of people we don't like.
[27:14] Right.
[27:15] Right.
[27:15] So the likability is important because people want to connect with other humans that they don't hate.
[27:23] So how do you do that?
[27:25] Well, you have to, you know, in your email marketing, you have to find ways to first of all sound human.
[27:30] And the first way that we sound human is that we do things like we crack jokes, right?
[27:35] We don't sound polished.
[27:37] We don't sound stiff or corporate.
[27:40] Like these are all things that don't sound human.
[27:42] They sound robotic.
[27:44] And when you are the opposite of those things, it makes you stand out in an inbox.
[27:49] Having a personal letter from a founder and they tell you about their struggle to build the brand or some personal story that led them to the creation of this company, that's a human thing.
[28:00] It makes you like them because now you connect with them on that human level.
[28:04] Humor is the most obvious way and probably the easiest way for people to do this.
[28:10] You don't need to be a professional comedian to be more humorous.
[28:14] You just have to add a little bit of levity and a little bit of lightness to your email.
[28:18] Else so that you're not like this stiff corporate robot, right?
[28:21] That's, that's a good one.
[28:22] And I really like how you summarize it on your presentation.
[28:25] You said that the road to likability is through being funny, being real, and being honest.
[28:30] And that pretty summarizes it all.
[28:33] Just like the more we can imitate our customers, the more we sound like our customers, the more we nail the copy that sounds like a real person and maybe like adding a few like well-written reviews from like real customers as well, the more we can like influence them, right?
[28:49] Yeah.
[28:50] Yeah.
[28:50] I mean, again, you can't cultivate a sense of belonging where somebody wants to join a group or be a part of a group if you aren't being real, if you aren't being honest, because nobody wants to be duped.
[29:00] Nobody wants to be the patsy.
[29:01] So if you aren't trying to be likable and a real human being, then it's going to be hard to cultivate unity and get people to want to be part of your community, part of your brand.
[29:11] Part of your movement, whatever it is.
[29:13] Likeability just goes hand in hand with that.
[29:15] And in my opinion, this is probably like the most underused tactic because everybody kind of seems to want to default to the professional stiff, oh, I can't, you know, I can't look too weird or too different or too informal in my emails.
[29:30] And I disagree with that.
[29:32] I think those are the ones that stand out.
[29:33] Those are the ones that resonate.
[29:34] And I've tried this on a lot of different emails.
[29:36] I've Tried it with other, you know, one of the things that we'll do on reCAPTCHA is that customers will come to us and say, hey, my campaign isn't doing what I think it should be doing.
[29:44] How do I want to make it?
[29:44] How can I make it better?
[29:45] And the first suggestion I almost always make is, you know, after making sure that they put in things like reviews and answering questions that customers are going to have, like make it human, make it connect with the people that you're trying to sell to, you know, don't shove it in their face and say, bye-bye-bye.
[30:01] Like prove that you are worthy of their time.
[30:05] Give them some value, make them laugh a little bit.
[30:07] Like none of these things are bad.
[30:09] What are the brands that are doing a good job?
[30:11] Like what are your favorite brands that are doing a good job with likeability principle?
[30:15] Oh, there's a lot of them that are out there.
[30:18] You know, it's interesting.
[30:18] Most of them are DTC brands because I feel like these brands are feeling more free to loosen up.
[30:25] But you know, the example I gave in the talk was ThinkGeek and Whiskey Loot.
[30:29] But you know, I can think of others that are out there that are doing a really good job on that.
[30:33] Olipop does a great job of being human.
[30:34] Oh yeah, they're amazing.
[30:36] Monica does that.
[30:37] It's for women's health wellness.
[30:39] I've seen the emails that Monica generates from her brand and they're very human.
[30:45] They're very likable.
[30:46] They're very relatable.
[30:47] If you're interested in women's health, she speaks from the heart and that really connects with her audience.
[30:54] And you don't have to be funny to connect with your audience, but Monica does a great job of that.
[30:58] Chubbies Shorts does a great job of that.
[31:00] They try to be funny on most of their stuff.
[31:02] So brands that are successful— Actually, we had a great copywriter on our podcast long ago, but they were like sharing this approach.
[31:09] Yeah, they, they try to be as human as possible in the emails, and also they try to make sure that all of their copy is like genuine.
[31:17] So they don't want to be like too, too human.
[31:21] I mean, they want to be human but in a good way.
[31:23] So I, I really enjoyed talking to them.
[31:26] And, uh, yeah, no, you, you've, you've mentioned all of the exam— amazing examples.
[31:30] And Olipop, guys, if you are still not their followers, no matter whether whether you like soda or not, just like go and subscribe to the emails because they are doing an amazing job.
[31:40] I like that their emails are like very consistent as well, like design-wise, copy-wise.
[31:46] And that's actually the next principle that we will be discussing— consistency, why it matters, and how do you maintain your brand consistency in the emails.
[31:54] Yeah.
[31:55] So consistency here is important for a lot of reasons.
[31:59] So Cialdini talks about consistency is, you know, you make a commitment and, you know, the example that I gave in the talk was like New Year's resolutions.
[32:08] So you say, hey, I want to be more fit.
[32:10] I want to be healthier.
[32:11] I want to work out more.
[32:12] So, you know, you put that out there, you made a commitment to do that.
[32:16] And so in order to show that you're consistent, you know, you can go and say, hey, you know, do you want to work out?
[32:23] Or, you know, if you're a health and wellness brand, you can start going and hitting people at that time when you know that they're going to be making those commitments to try to help ensure that they're going to be that consistent human being.
[32:34] We want to be seen as consistent all the time.
[32:37] That's what Cialdini's research found.
[32:39] And so as a result of consistency, you can take your emails and get people to act on things because of that consistency.
[32:48] And so as a brand, you know, this is a great way for you to promote things like maybe you are into social justice, right?
[32:58] And your brand is trying to promote giving to charity or donating your time or something like that.
[33:04] So by demonstrating that not only do you do this, you can talk about the results of what it is that you do.
[33:11] And then you can also show the various projects that happen.
[33:13] So some photos that go along when your people in your company have volunteered for that.
[33:18] So that carries through and that now, this ties back into belonging a little bit.
[33:23] If your brand is about attracting consumers where that kind of thing is important, where being a conscious consumer is an important thing, then you're demonstrating that consistency and helping to bring those consumers into that orbit of your brand by saying, hey, look, we do this, you know, you can feel good about using our brand because these are things that we do.
[33:43] So you've made a public commitment to it and then you remain consistent by demonstrating that you're doing that.
[33:48] So that's one way to talk about consistency.
[33:51] Yeah.
[33:51] Yeah.
[33:51] And I mean, I think this, the consistency ties nicely with the next principle as well, I mean, they all, they all ties nicely, but consistency and authority, they work really well together.
[34:06] And for some reason, those in a position of authority are inherently more persuasive.
[34:13] And I don't know why, but people just like can't help but trust others with like higher status, greater wealth, and people in uniform.
[34:21] That's the thing.
[34:22] I don't know.
[34:23] What is it with the uniform?
[34:24] Uniforms, but people do tend to trust people in uniforms.
[34:27] If consumers trust a brand, they will more likely to convert.
[34:32] So that's like my experience with authority and consistency in the email.
[34:36] What do you think about this principle?
[34:38] What is sort of like, how can you use this principle in your email marketing strategy?
[34:44] Sure.
[34:44] Authority, you know, like you said, it's— and I think this ties back indirectly to belonging.
[34:50] You know, we want to be be part of a group, but not everybody necessarily wants to be the leader of that group.
[34:55] In fact, a lot of people stand back and throw up their hands when people are like, "Oh, well, who's going to lead us?
[35:01] Who's going to take care of making the decisions of the group?" A lot of people don't feel comfortable with that.
[35:06] I think that's why authority has the power that it does, because somebody who's willing to step up and take that responsibility gets people's respect.
[35:15] Now, of course, authority can be abused, right?
[35:18] You got to be careful with that.
[35:20] But there is an implicit trust that comes with signals of authority, whether it's from a uniform, whether it's a military uniform or police uniform, or it's from a title like president or chancellor or premier or things like that, or from just something that signals that somebody has undergone a lot of training, whether it's a graduation gown that has all of the stripes on it for PhD candidates, or a nun's habit, or a priest's garb or something like that.
[35:53] All of these things end up like conveying that somebody has gone through a lot of training and a lot of time.
[36:00] And so therefore we just assume that they are more knowledgeable about certain things.
[36:04] And in some cases that's obviously true, in some cases it's not, right?
[36:07] So you have to be sort of careful about the authority that you listen to.
[36:12] The example I gave in the talk was, you know, looking at Dolores Umbridge from the Harry Potter series versus, uh, Albus Dumbledore, right?
[36:22] So both of them were levels of authority.
[36:24] Dolores Umbridge was obviously, you know, very underhanded, had an agenda, trying to manipulate and maneuver and be political, whereas Albus Dumbledore was not.
[36:33] Yeah, it was kindness and compassion and long-term thinking and, you know, wisdom and stuff like that.
[36:38] So you got to make sure that you're leaning towards the Dumbledore kind of authority there.
[36:43] And the most common example of this is like celebrity endorsements, but it doesn't have to be limited to just celebrity endorsements to get that authority in your email marketing.
[36:51] So another example, a friend of mine did a health and wellness protein shake.
[36:57] And they actually had a really good example of authority.
[37:00] They had the University of Oklahoma run a study of people who use the shake for 90 days and those that didn't use anything.
[37:07] And then they had them do certain exercises.
[37:09] So this is a whole controlled thing.
[37:10] And at the end of it, they found that the people that use the shake versus the control versus those that did nothing, there was a significant difference in their health, like improvement of like their overall blood chemistry in their overall body fat, body mass index, stuff like that.
[37:25] So they, they had a bunch of statistics to back it up.
[37:28] And that's a form of authority too.
[37:30] So you can say, hey, look, we did this test.
[37:32] This test showed that people used our product, did this much that was better than people who didn't.
[37:37] So, you know, that's a way that you can use authority.
[37:39] You can also use it through like micro influencers.
[37:42] So in addition to just like well-known celebrities, if you're on Instagram and you've got somebody that, you know, is really into fashion and you know that they're a famous Instagrammer that has a huge audience and you're trying to sell clothing.
[37:54] Well, you know, that can work as a way of authority too, because people trust that person's opinion.
[37:58] And that's what you're trying to do is get that trust rubbed off onto your brand.
[38:02] That's fundamentally what authority is.
[38:04] Right.
[38:04] It's interesting that you've started talking about social proof in a way, because this part of the puzzle is huge in all this, like, picture.
[38:12] So apparently social proof is what, what basically makes the good brand stand, stands out from from a bad, bad brand.
[38:21] What are some best-in-class brands that are doing social proof well, and why social proof matters so much in e-commerce?
[38:30] Yeah, so social proof, you know, fundamentally we are just wired to, you know, go along with the safe choice.
[38:39] That's what social proof— that's what drives social proof at its lowest level.
[38:42] So we are very much monkey see, monkey do people.
[38:45] If you see 100 people that bought this product over here and they all rated it 5 stars, we're like, cool, I'll buy it too.
[38:51] You feel good about that choice.
[38:52] The brands that do this really well, you know, there are brands that do it well and then there are brands that just like are off the charts really good.
[39:01] And the two examples I had from the talk, so Native, you know, hygiene brand, health and wellness, I guess.
[39:07] And you know, they had this email that they sent out that said, hey, 4.72 stars is our average rating.
[39:13] You know, that's amazing.
[39:14] And that's totally a solid way to use social proof.
[39:17] You basically told whoever is receiving this email right here, "Hey, a lot of people like this.
[39:23] It's a cool choice.
[39:24] You're safe to make it." That's great.
[39:26] But the other example that I gave where somebody really upped their game on it was Brooklinen.
[39:33] Brooklinen didn't just go and say, "Hey, look, we have this kind of a rating for our sheets and towels." They said, "We have 28,000 bullshit-free reviews." And then they posted 2 of them on there that were also related relatable, they were a little bit funny.
[39:51] So they combined belonging, social proof, and likability all into one email.
[39:57] So that like, it's supercharged the social proof because you're making it more connect, you know, something that's more relatable, something that they can connect with better.
[40:07] There's nothing wrong with what Native did, but Brooklinen really, you know, hit it out of the park there because they, they managed to not just, you know, tickle one persuasive aspect, but three all in one email.
[40:18] That's amazing.
[40:19] And, um, I mean, I, I've seen personally how well those like real unpolished reviews work in the emails, you know, the real reviews from the real customer.
[40:31] We have this client who sells— they're selling the serums for lashes and brows growth.
[40:38] So basically they have a ton of before and after reviews and I love a good before and after review and it's very easy to show before and after with like lashes.
[40:47] And brows.
[40:48] You have like no brows and now you have this like beautiful brows or like no lashes, short lashes.
[40:53] And then like 12 weeks later you have this like beautiful, almost like fake looking lashes, but they are real.
[40:59] And we have this campaign that we are honestly doing on a weekly basis now, and that is called She Said What About Us.
[41:06] And this campaign always gets the most clicks, the most open rates, but also the most conversions.
[41:13] And we don't offer any discounts whatsoever in that campaign.
[41:16] So it's just that feeling of like, again, probably like the belonging to the community, but also the feeling that they are not like trying to sell you something necessarily.
[41:26] They're just like sharing their personal results that works every time for, for this brand and for my other clients, honestly, as well.
[41:33] So yeah, totally.
[41:34] I mean, that example that you talked about right there, they are absolutely exploiting, or you're absolutely exploiting belonging because you're basically putting the before and after right there to allow the person who's reading that email to see themselves in that position because they're probably sitting in the before and that's why they're looking at the product in the first place, right?
[41:54] So now they can look and say, oh, in 12 weeks I could look like that.
[41:58] That's belonging, right?
[42:00] I wanna be that person right there.
[42:01] That is exactly belonging.
[42:03] That is what unity is right there.
[42:05] Oh yeah.
[42:05] Oh yeah.
[42:06] Dave, what's the dark side of social proof?
[42:09] I remember you, you were talking about it.
[42:10] On the talk.
[42:13] Yeah.
[42:14] So this is really funny.
[42:15] So social proof is all about saying, here's what the group is doing, you should do it too.
[42:20] And what Cialdini found is that there was, and I don't have a specific email example of this, but you could kind of guess that this probably exists in email somewhere for somebody who's not paying attention.
[42:31] But what Cialdini said was at the Petrified Forest National Park in Arizona, there was a sign outside of the park.
[42:41] And let's see if I can pull up the text of the sign says, many people are stealing petrified wood and crystals.
[42:47] This is endangering the forest.
[42:49] Please do not collect wood or crystals in the park.
[42:52] This was just outside of the main ranger station.
[42:55] And guess what?
[42:56] You've just now told everybody that's coming in, other people are stealing things from the park, you better go do it too.
[43:04] That's what happened.
[43:05] So because they had that sentence in there, yeah, you gave them the They had no idea theft was up.
[43:10] So what they did is they took out the first 2 sentences and just said, "Please do not collect wood or crystals in the park." Thefts dropped 7%.
[43:17] Wow.
[43:18] The A/B testing right here.
[43:20] That's awesome.
[43:22] Yeah, that's awesome.
[43:23] That's some hilarious A/B testing.
[43:25] And there was another example I gave about digital signs in Texas.
[43:28] Roads with signs that said, "Hey, we have crashes on here." They had higher accident rates, even though the roads were basically very similar.
[43:35] Roads with signs, roads without signs.
[43:37] They did it about the same distance.
[43:39] So basically by telling people, There were a lot of crashes on this road, cause more people to crash.
[43:43] Like, that's weird.
[43:46] Wow.
[43:46] It's super strange.
[43:47] Yeah, super.
[43:48] So be careful what you incent.
[43:50] That's, that's my, that's my takeaway there.
[43:52] Make sure you're incenting people to do the right thing.
[43:55] Yeah.
[43:56] Well, Petrified Forest was on, on the list of the hikes and the places that I wanted to visit in the States.
[44:02] So thank you for reminding me about that.
[44:04] I hope there, there are still there's still some crystals left there.
[44:07] So, oh yes, there are.
[44:08] Yes.
[44:09] A lot of people, it turns out, felt really guilty about it, so they sent them back.
[44:13] Aw.
[44:15] And there's like a pile near the ranger station that they have that shows exactly what this is.
[44:20] They call it the guilt pile or something like that.
[44:22] Oh wow.
[44:23] Yeah.
[44:24] That's hilarious.
[44:25] That's hilarious.
[44:26] Okay, awesome.
[44:27] So we are at the last principle, the principle of reciprocity, and I personally love this principle both in email marketing and in life.
[44:37] What are some most commonly used reciprocity tactics in email marketing?
[44:43] Reciprocity.
[44:44] Yeah.
[44:44] For those that aren't familiar, reciprocity is basically you do something for me, I'm more likely to do something for you in return.
[44:50] It's because we, we as humans don't like to have being indebted to somebody else to feel like we owe you something.
[44:57] So we try to do that as quickly as possible.
[45:00] You know, the most common examples that we see in email marketing marketing are discount codes and free shipping, right?
[45:06] You give away a discount code and you hope that somebody's going to complete the sale because you gave them something.
[45:11] And in truth, this totally works.
[45:13] It's also kind of boring.
[45:15] It's also very common and it doesn't make you stand out, right?
[45:19] But this is literally what everybody does to trigger reciprocity.
[45:23] And there, there are uncommon ways to trigger reciprocity.
[45:27] You can give away like a special, you know, if we're talking about like that supplement brand that I mentioned earlier that when they did the study at University of Oklahoma, they gave you a workout schedule that you could follow to help really get ripped by using this.
[45:43] So that was one of their freebies that you got.
[45:45] They didn't give a discount, but they gave you some workouts and meal plans and stuff like that to go with it to really help you because they knew what their customers were doing.
[45:55] So that's one way to trigger reciprocity.
[45:58] You can do it in a lot of different ways, some educational content, that can help, stuff like white papers.
[46:03] And I'm trying to think of other things here that, you know, off the top of my head.
[46:08] But basically, you know, you give something, it's valuable to the other person, right?
[46:12] They're going to be more likely to be willing to do something for you in return.
[46:16] That's what reciprocity ultimately means.
[46:18] You deliver the value.
[46:19] That all comes down to like delivering the value, delivering the right message to like the right, the right person, basically.
[46:26] And That's what a lot of brands unfortunately are not doing with their email marketing.
[46:31] And yeah, you don't necessarily always have to deliver discount codes and free shipping.
[46:36] It can be content about like 5 ways to use your products, or it can be maybe like a wallpaper.
[46:44] I know some Glossier, they do this.
[46:47] They share their exclusive like wallpapers, like a computer, like a desktop wallpaper.
[46:51] Papers, they attach the file, like you can download it and have it on your, on your screen.
[46:57] One of my clients, we are working on this like best summer songs playlist on Spotify that we will share with our community as well.
[47:05] And basically, I think we will cover both the sense of belonging because you are part of that like community and we will likeability, probably that's something that we'll cover with that email as well, but reciprocity as as well.
[47:17] So you open our email, you purchase our products, we will keep delivering the value to you.
[47:22] And it, it will not necessarily be like a discount code.
[47:25] It can be the content as well.
[47:27] Right, right.
[47:28] But you have to remember that the, the thing that makes reciprocity work is that you are providing that value.
[47:33] And if you just say, all right, well, I'm gonna do the Spotify playlist because that one sounds like a great idea, but if you're selling industrial equipment, like, do your customers really care about a Spotify playlist?
[47:43] Like, This, you gotta, it's gotta connect with the community.
[47:46] You gotta know your customer.
[47:47] Yeah, exactly.
[47:48] Exactly.
[47:49] It all comes down to knowing your customer.
[47:51] Always.
[47:52] Always.
[47:52] Yep.
[47:53] Yes.
[47:54] Awesome.
[47:55] Well, thank you so much, David.
[47:56] It was so, so much fun talking to you and, uh, I got a lot of good insights.
[48:01] Where can people find you if they have more questions about what you do or about the 7 Principles of Persuasion?
[48:08] How can people connect with you?
[48:10] Well, I hang out a lot on Twitter @daverodenbaugh, and I'll give you the handle so that's in the show notes because spelling that can be a bit of a nightmare.
[48:18] Yeah.
[48:19] It's German, right?
[48:20] Yes.
[48:21] German or Austrian, we're never really sure exactly what the origin is, but yeah, it's probably pretty close.
[48:27] And then we are also on the web at reCAPTCHA.io, and we're probably in your favorite app store as well.
[48:36] So if you're on the Shopify app store, BigCommerce WordPress Marketplace or Magento or whatever, you can search for reCAPTCHA on there and find us if you're looking to install the app.
[48:44] But if you had any questions or anything, you can always reach me personally, david@recaptcha.io as well.
[48:50] And thank you so much for having me on today, Vera.
[48:53] This is a lot of fun.
[48:54] Talking about the psychological aspects of marketing is, it's a lot of fun and it's really important because when you understand these things, you get better at the things that you're trying to do in your job, whether that's building landing pages or sending out emails or persuading people to actually complete a sale.
[49:13] All of these things are made easier when you understand how people tick, right?
[49:16] Yeah.
[49:17] Yeah.
[49:17] Well, thank you so much, Dave.
[49:19] It was nice having you here on our, on our show.
[49:22] Guys, definitely come back next week and don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with your friends.
[49:28] If you leave us the review and if you send us the screenshot to flowium.com/community or to flowium.com/support, socks, we will send you a very special branded pair of your own Flowium socks.
[49:43] So definitely go ahead, join our Flowium community, and definitely go ahead, leave us a review, and we'll send you a pair of your very own Flowium socks.
[49:52] They are super cute, super comfy, and you will like them just as much as you like our podcast, I hope.
[49:58] Thank you so much for hanging out with us here today, Dave.
[50:01] Thank you.
[50:02] Bye!
[50:03] Thanks for listening to Email Einstein.
[50:05] Can you feel that?
[50:06] Your marketing brain just got a little bit bigger.
[50:09] We ask that you please use it wisely.
[50:12] You've got all the theory you need to get out there and start boosting your sales.
[50:16] Because great emails equals revenue squared.