Nonviolence for Lent: Part 2

In this episode, Rev. Dr. Shannon Vance-Ocampo, along with Rev. Gusti Newquist, pastor at Shepherdstown Presbyterian Church, discuss a key pillar of nonviolence: The Universe is on the Side of Justice.

Together they discuss how nonviolence is lived out in everyday ministry, and challenge us all to trust that even in complexity, God is on the side of justice.

Transcript

Welcome Back And Lenten Focus

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello everyone. This is Shannon Vance Okambo. I use she and her pronouns, and I am the general presbyter for the Presbytery of Southern New England. And this is connecting our conversations, our podcast space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us to deepen discipleship. We've taken a bit of a hiatus from the podcast these last few months, but we are coming back with the spring season. And our first two episodes will be focused on nonviolence and the last two weeks of Lent for our Presbytery study, Nonviolence for Lent. And this is the second of two of these focused episodes. The Presbytery of Southern New England is a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church USA. Today we will be talking to a ministry friend and colleague of mine, the Reverend Gusty Newquist, who is the pastor at the Shepherdstown Presbyterian Church in West Virginia. And Gusty has served this congregation and community since 2019 and is a graduate of Harvard Divinity School and previously served in upstate New York and has also worked at the National Office of the Presbyterian Church USA in women's ministries and advocacy. Throughout her ministry, Gusty has a commitment and a focus on serving congregations that are clear in their commitment to openness and welcome, especially to the LGBTQIA plus community. I've known Gusty for years, well before we were both in upstate New York, many, many years. And so I'm so grateful for Gusty and her ministry and that she said yes to our invitation to speak to us today with this Lenten focus on the practices of nonviolence and how she's living it out in her ministry context. So welcome, Gusty, to Connecting Our Conversations. Thank you, Shannon. Glad to be here. Yeah. So I love to start out, of course, first with introductions. And I've said a few things, but I also want to give you a chance to introduce yourself and in whatever way makes sense for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Thank you, Shannon. I actually went back and looked on my Facebook page and all the ways I tend to introduce myself. And the phrase I have often used is that I am a poet, a preacher, a teacher, and a healer. But right now I'm on sabbatical, uh, five five weeks in. And the theme of my sabbatical is who am I now? So identity is unfolding. And um, I think what I'd like to say five weeks into this uh reflection on identity is that um I am tired. Um I think a lot of pastors are, a lot of people are.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Um I am a friend and a colleague in ministry. I've had an opportunity in this sabbatical to connect with long-term friends and colleagues. And um, so I'm somebody who knows that I can't be who I am without relationship. And I am an aunt. Uh I was just called to respond to a family crisis with my 10-year-old niece. And um, and while it's um uh heartbreaking that my 10-year-old niece had to go through open heart surgery, um it was also gratifying as part of this search for identity that um being Aunt Gusty was something I could do, and that uh being a part of a family, an extended family is who I am. And then as part of the sabbatical, I am um in a menopause incubator program. So I am midlife and I am transitioning in my body, and um and that that's also a spiritual transition. And um so then, so then what I'm what I'm doing right now is being coming rooted in my belovedness um in this sabbatical time and and uh who knows what will unfold as the journey continues.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah, that's amazing, Gusty. And um, you know, as long as we've known each other, I've always been so appreciative to how spiritually spiritually intentional you are always. And so um I'm glad that that's not surprised, of course, but glad that that's being allowed to continue in your sabbatical time. And thank you for taking a little bit of that time to chat with us and um uh um very hopeful that your niece continues to recover um from such significant surgery. So um many things in there. So let's um also hear just, I mean, you're on sabbatical from it right now, but uh, you know, tell us about you know what you do at your local ministry, um, you know, what's your sort of uh portfolio of ministry like these days, and uh what's it looking like for you?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

So I am the pastor of the Shepherdstown Presbyterian Church, which is in the Eastern Panhandle of West Virginia. We are what we would call an exurb of Washington, DC. Uh you can get to Union Station by train in about an hour. Um, we do have quite a number of federal workers in in our community. Um we have uh a university in our town, so we have uh faculty, staff, a lot of educators, scientists, social workers, leadership consultants. Uh the LGBTQIA plus community is significantly served in our congregation. Um we are a congregation that um has a real history in the town and in the in the panhandle. We're older than the country. Uh we've been told that we were founded in 1743. Um if you do some math and look at some of the history around uh treaties with indigenous populations in the nation, you'll see that we were actually violating a treaty by being established uh at that date. We were at that time white settlers were supposed to stay on the eastern side of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Um, so there's some work to do around that part of our history. Um, we've done quite a bit of work around our history as a Confederate uh hospital during the Battle of Antietam. Um the single bloodiest day in American history was right across the river from us. And um uh so there's a lot of that part of our heritage that we are coming to terms with as a congregation.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

And um we are a community that um is committed to peace and justice work. Um we tend to take anybody who wants to come in um without asking a whole lot of questions. Uh folks call us the church of last resort that they've they've tried a lot of other places and and finally land with us. Um and the uh one of the great, I would say, um points of of humble pride among us is that the uh the local NAACP president has called us the uh the bastion of prophetic witness in the panhandle. So that that is certainly something we strive to earn, um not always perfectly, but um in terms of what I particularly do, um I'm a small town pastor, so there's all the stuff that that uh that would happen in that kind of portfolio, um, yeah, all the preaching and worship and and that kind of thing, uh pastoral care. Um because our congregation is open and affirming, we tend to get referrals um from people from the LGBTQIA plus community who need um some spiritual support if they've come from uh communities that don't affirm them. Um I do leadership development for staff and session and deacons and all that stuff that pastors do. Um do community organizing around justice and peace. Um just try to be a presence, uh a hopeful presence in a hard time. Um you can imagine uh in a community with a lot of federal workers um the past year has been rough.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah, yeah. I was listening to a podcast recently, and someone was on there that was in the DC area, like DC proper, and said that um it's like a haunting all of these job losses, and that um all of these people with these just incredible levels of competency in such specific areas that you may not even know exist, but that are propping up all sorts of things, right? And then um it's like at every time you have dinner with friends and every time you're in the grocery store talking to people, like it's it's it's everywhere, this this haunting of these um of these unemp of this unemployment and these job losses and uh shifts and ripple effects and families and communities and relationships and all the things, right? And so um I I'm sure in some ways it's quite similar in your community, right? Um this loss. Right. Um and uh and people that um you know federal workers tend to be so rooted in their work. Uh it's almost for you know a lot of them a lifetime commitment, right? And um there's a there's a there's a calling and a love to it.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, yeah. And I think the the thing that that they know and that I know now as their pastor, but that a lot of other folks don't know is how much their unseen work is relied upon by the whole country. And you know, I have a a parishioner who works for the FAA, for example, and um, you know, has predicted everything that has unfolded with uh the breakdown of our um of our flight safety. Um of this is rooted in in uh underfunding and getting rid of people who shouldn't be gotten rid of.

Nonviolence With Federal Worker Pain

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, yeah, I know. I I briefly called into a federal agency last year with a pastor in this Presbyterian. We had uh a fairly surreal phone call. So yeah, it was um it's it's uh it's it's worrisome. And so that's the other thing we should be uh, you know, we're in a region where I think we do have some federal workers, but not to the percentage amount um and uh uh that are in other parts of the country, but it is uh um it's it's really important everywhere, even if you don't have lots of federal workers in your community, you may not realize how important it is. Right. It's a big ministry lift and not one you knew was coming at you when you got there in ministry. So I I already hear you, Gusty, talking about nonviolence without saying the words. Right, right. Uh about your ministry. But um, you know, of course, we're doing this this season in Lent, and um uh just as we begin the conversation about nonviolence, I'm wondering if you can just sort of chat a little bit about what it's been like for you in general terms to be thinking about nonviolence as it comes alongside ministry? Like what does it mean for you as someone who loves and follows Jesus, um, as a leader, as a pastor, and places it's been rooted and engaged in your ministry before. And then, you know, we'll go to something more specific after that. Um, but you know, sort of generally, what's nonviolence been like for you in ministry?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Well, I'll start where we left off, which is with federal workers who are by by most standards used to having stability, um, you know, by by most employment standards. And so to have uh parishioners who are now um, whether they've lost their jobs or they're still in their jobs, but in an environment that has become truly toxic, uh, guiding them into how to make choices or just being a pastoral presence with them without allowing anger to consume them is is a way of practicing nonviolence that um that they have to guide them through their sense of agency, to see um it's easy to uh blame individuals, which we've done. Um human beings, we're human. Um but to then say, how is this part of a system of violence? Right. And to to sort of look at powers and principalities. So there's been a real opportunity for some theological spiritual teaching in this really awful time. Um so so I'll start there that it's it's practical as a pastor to guide people through how do you make choices, through injustice, through what is genuinely uh one of the one of the best uh just descriptions of evil I've heard is the um harm that enjoys it. Yeah. Enjoying the hurt that you're causing.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

And that that that has been so hard for for my federal worker parishioners to receive this genuine des glee over how how hurt they are. And to guide to guide them with the way of Jesus, to say, okay, well, how do you respond to that kind of glee? Um, uh, how does Jesus show you how to respond? Um, it's not easy. I mean, I I like to say sometimes, uh, I don't know why any of us are in this, because it's a lot easier to just um to just be mad all the time, but but it's also um more harmful to the spirit to be mad all the time. So, how are we going to find stubborn joy, resistant joy? Um, how are you going to if um, you know, some people have had to make choices around staying in jobs, um, knowing that they're doing work that they really wish they weren't in this context? And what how do you make choices uh based on your own family's needs? Um, you know, that that um all of that is deeply rooted in being a pastor. And if you're committed to nonviolence, then you can invite people to reflect on where they where they are being guided by fear, where they are being guided by um a desire for um um retribution, and where they're being guided by love and trust. And to do that for myself. Um yeah, so I could say more, but that's kind of deeply in the moment uh what nonviolence looks like.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

It's interesting because so often nonviolence is portrayed as like the big stuff, right? Right. The march on Washington or uh, you know, uh, you know, sort of like protests or uh, you know, uh sort of actions that are big. But um I've always thought that piece about nonviolence of your own individual spirit is maybe the hardest part of it all because um, you know, uh I probably go back to that, you know, many times a day, you know, subconsciously or consciously. I think we all do, right? Just because I'm a bad person, it means I'm a human. Um, and I'm hurt too like everybody else is hurt. And that hurts making me get mad and maybe think things in my head that are, you know, not necessarily kind or potentially violent or other things, right? I mean, I think we all are in that space in one way or another, and yet we're also uh trying to work against it and trying to figure out how it's working on us. And then, you know, what are the other uh I you the conversation before about the history of your area, right? Like those are long-term violences that need long-term repair. And that's also an act of nonviolent witness, but it's it's a longer-term proposition as well because it's um, you know, you're you're talking about treaties that were violated a couple hundred years ago, but that's still reverberating in that community. Absolutely. And in other places, right? So it's it's uh it's needing stitching back together in some way, but we also need to do that. So it's uh it is a it's a it's a serious process. And um uh I was talking to one of our pastors in the Presbytery earlier today who is sharing about some pilgrimages that she takes people on, and and that work is all around um internal repair work, right? And so it's uh there's many modalities, right? And we all have our piece of that and our area where we have our calling and our giftedness, and not just as clergy, but as people in just in general, as part of the the larger witness of the church. So it's um it's a big piece for all of us, and I think a a deeply spiritual process. Um absolutely yeah, and tending to people, right, as they're in such pain is is um so so important. Um that that pain of job loss and economic instability is is is terrifying um in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

So it is. And I you you mentioned something that um that I think, and we'll talk about Minneapolis in a second, that I think I I wrestle with quite a bit and I I think is um is so powerful is what counts as nonviolent action. And exactly, yeah. You know, there's sort of the sexy work, right? To me, at least that's it's very e for me, it's ego-driven. Like I want to be on the front page of whatever, and I want to be like carrying the sign. For me, that um there there's often um because I think that that's what good nonviolent people should do, that if I'm not doing that, somehow I'm not doing enough. Right, right. And part of what Minneapolis taught me, and like I you know, we'll talk about that in a second, but what Minneapolis taught me, and part of what the sabbatical is teaching me is that um everything we do has has to be um has the invitation to be rooted in a philosophy of nonviolence and a commitment to the realm of God.

Why Minneapolis Became The Call

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Right, right, absolutely. So let's talk about Minneapolis. Of course, um, you know, folks listening to this podcast know what happened and is continuing to happen in Minneapolis. There was this incredible um uh surge, sort of influx of um ICE personnel into that city, um, and um all sorts of incredible harms and incredible breaking of the bonds of the community by that. Um and um but the people in Minneapolis decided they love their people. They did. Yeah. They did. Um, but it also got to be a lot for them. And so there was a point when they issued a call for clergy to come. And I was thinking about this call that um the last time I saw a call for clergy to come was Standing Rock. Right. And uh I did not go to Standing Rock, but I participated as a support person for Standing Rock for some Presbyterian teams that were there that were planning, knew that they would be arrested, and to do the the back end support, um, which I was honored to participate in that too, because there's a lot of pieces to that these these uh things that happen. But um, yeah, so I wonder if you could just talk about that. You decided to go and um be there to go from West Virginia over to Minnesota, and um, you know, I'll just let you tell the story of that, you know, what that was like and why you were there.

Occupied City And Sacred Land

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Well, I think I'll start by saying um that I spent my formative years, my teenage years in Alabama. And so um the both the legacy and the unfinished work of the civil rights movement was much in my face during that time of my of my upbringing. And, you know, the call to Selma is sort of his this historic uh memory. And and I think a lot of us as pastors, you know, growing up since then have wondered, you know, if the call came, would I go? And I've always wanted to be the person who would say, absolutely, I would go. This particular call to Minneapolis came over the Martin Luther King holiday weekend, and it and it directly paralleled the call to Selma in its presentation. Um that said, there were also a lot of personal connections for me in Minneapolis. Um, I have uh five seminary colleagues who happen to be land there. Um One of whom responded immediately to the murder of Renee Good and offered prayer, identified as a chaplain, offered prayer to the ICE agents because I think if you if you remember, if you've seen the videos, the ICE agents themselves were disconcerted about what had happened after the killing of Renee Good. And she showed up to offer prayer and instead they pepper sprayed her. So uh so these are like people I know, people I went to school with. Um and and just knowing they were there, trying to trying to hold the space for the people who were there, um, and that they were having these experiences. I just felt like I have to go be with my people because these were my friends and colleagues from seminary. Um, but then there was also a personal um connection just in terms of immigration and ice and ice actions and ice raids. Uh, my first congregation uh was a church in Tucson. So I was very familiar in that ministry from Ice Rate, you know, ICE raids and border patrol checkpoints and the racism of all of that. I I've said before that um, you know, it is not new for me to be the white person driving the car and being passed through when there's other white people in the car. But as soon as you've got one person of color, you're stopped and you're checked, and all of those things. So the and and even being killed by ice is not new. Um if you're a person of color. Killing white people is new. And that um that there was this sense that um uh, you know, and even in myself, and this is the nonviolence work I have to do in myself, and the anti-racism work I have to do in myself is oh my gosh, whiteness doesn't protect us anymore. And so there's you know, all of that inner work was going on in me as well. And um, and I do want to tell just one more personal story, which is again, you shared that I was served a church in upstate New York, and um, we had a number of immigrants in that congregation. And um uh the woman who caught the bouquet at my wedding had her husband deported as he was applying for a green card, right? Trying to do the right thing, playing by the rules, taken on the spot, and now left an infant baby and and his wife behind. So all of this was personal as well as just the sort of sense of the call came. Are you gonna go? And um, and I'll never forget this phone conversation I had with my parents. Um, you know, my dad is this fairly conservative defense contractor, retired rule of law kind of guy. Yeah, and he just said, um, you know, he said, if you don't go, you aren't gonna be able to live with yourself, and you're going as my ambassador. So that told me something too. It was like, this, this really is way bigger than the sort of normal knee-jerk liberal kind of this is right and wrong, you have to go. Right. So I did, and um, and the first the first day was more of an orientation and and a reminder that we cannot keep you safe. I mean, it was very clear that you are entering into an occupied territory, and that was not hyperbole. Um, it was not safe for anybody in Minneapolis at that time. Um, whether or not it's still safe now is an open question. But at in that moment, they said, we can't keep our people safe. We cannot keep you safe. We had to sign a legal waiver that we knew the risk. Um, but they said all we can do is show up and support each other, and that's what we were doing. Um, we had a Dakota tribal leader in introduce uh us to the land and remind us this is unceded Dakota territory, and that the particular land where the Minnesota River joins the Mississippi River is considered sacred to the Dakota people. And that is the exact uh location of the detention center. And so this is again the physical, the emotional, the spiritual violation. Uh he said, we have a thing or two to say about who is and is not invading this land.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Right. And the detention center, right, is alongside land where previously great harm has come to native communities. Absolutely. Uh uh hangings and uh murders, and uh it it it's a chosen spot of it's a right.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Um and and uh one would argue intentionally chosen.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yeah, what it's a chosen.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah. So so that does put um everything that's happening in this context of white supremacy. That that is the bigger lens through which we have to understand all of this. Um more specifically on the ground, we met with organizers, we met with um this is what when you when we were referring to all the different layers of of action. So you've got you've got the organizers and you've got the public speakers, and then you have the people who are just making sure diapers get delivered to the right place and blankets get delivered. And, you know, one of our speakers was delayed because she was delivering breast milk for a three-month-old who had been left behind when her mother, who was a legal resident, had been abducted. So, you know, these these were the stories. Um we were advised that um, you know, people who are delivering mutual aid would write the they would have to memorize the uh what they would write down the address, they would not use GPS in case I stopped them. And if I stop them, they would eat the paper. Right? This this is happening here, you know, here in the United States. This is this is the kind of uh safety precautions people are having to take. Um so we um I think one of the other stories that was so powerful was um a woman who was trying to provide legal support um was maced eight times different places as she was trying to get legal aid to a legal resident who was pregnant. They'd beat down her door. Um we had one of our leaders tell us, uh, I am an atheist Lakota Jew. He says, but if I am wrong and I come before God on the day of judgment, and God asks me, What did you do when your people were being kidnapped? I will say I did everything I could. And he broke down weeping. And this guy is indigenous, right? And and he was basically sharing that um, not not he literally that ICE is targeting his neighborhood. That they knew that this was an indigenous neighborhood and they would target this neighborhood anyway. Um, and um the uh the the Oglala Sioux tribe had I think six members of their tribe who were um who were abducted and only one of them has been released to date, they're still looking for them.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Right. Yeah, and they're and they're insisting that there's a a legal agreement then that you know, like like a like uh basically a like a like a ransom for a kidnap, right? That you if you enter into a new agreement and give us access to tribal land and uh again violate a treaty, exactly uh then we'll let we'll we'll give you your people back, right? Well that's like uh that's like just ransom.

Mutual Aid And Direct Action

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Exactly. Yeah. So that so those were the stories we heard. Um then the second day was our day of action. And um there were several actions that took place among the clergy group. Um the big one was uh at the airport, and um, this was direct nonviolent civil disobedience, um, where 100 clergy were arrested, um, protesting the deportation flights without due process, protesting contracts with airlines. Um apparently ICE had been abducting people on uh airport property, including behind the security checkpoint. So, like the levels of security you have to go through in order to be hired behind the security checkpoints, ICE didn't care, was just taking everybody. Um, so that protest happened. There was a sit-in at US Bank Corps, um, which is headquartered in Minneapolis, to protest their contracts with ICE. That group was able to get a meeting with the C A CEO. Um, I had promised my congregation that I would not do anything intentionally that would get me arrested. I knew there was a chance no matter what, but um I said, if I'm gonna get arrested, I'll do it here with you, um, together. And um, so I took a quote unquote a little bit more of a safer pilgrimage. Um, I went from George Floyd Square to Renee Good, the Renee Good memorial. Uh heard a um Kia, the woman who had videotaped George Floyd's murder, uh, spoke to us about the organizing that has happened in that community. Um, and and then the Renee Good memorial was pretty powerful, you know, palpable energy. Both of those places beautifully tended. Um, sage burning at Renee Good's memorial, um, and round the clock um vigil, um, poetry um on the trees. Um again, when we talk about the different levels and layers of of action, you know, um, it was everything. It was music, it was singing, it was art, it was it was driving people places, it was people who had never in a moment in their lives thought that they would join anything like this. It was seasoned activists, it was everybody in between. It was, it was block-by-block neighborhoods on signal chats, looking out for each other, really organized at the neighborhood level. Um, there was an ice raid that morning at the church that hosted us for this pilgrimage. And so we were on lockdown for two hours as the as they were, you know, the church locked the doors so that ICE wouldn't come and invade the church. It was a um uh mostly uh Latina church community. Um, we did a target uh protest that afternoon against uh Target. Uh the stores are headquartered in Minneapolis, and um um this was uh protesting them allowing their parking lots to be used as staging grounds, uh, allowing immigrants to be arrested in their stores. Um one fun uh thing that happened in response to that, you know, we had all we did a lot of social media around what we were doing, and one response um was this woman who just said, are clergy just popping up all over Minneapolis in groups to shame folks who aren't acting right? The answer was actually yes. That's exactly what we're doing. And and that was the thing they they said was we want murmurings. We we, you know, that and and that was one of the big lessons from Minneapolis is you don't have to have this big one movement leader that everyone follows. Um, that that real real grassroots, locally organized, everybody doing their part, um, and just showing up in one place, showing up in another place. The music, the art, the whatever your gift is, offer it. You don't have to fit yourself in into any particular box. Um, you know, that that really is the model.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yeah, it's it's it reminds me right of that Corinthian idea, right? Yes, are hands, some of us are feet, absolutely, et cetera, et cetera. And that, you know, together it makes up the body of Christ, right? And uh so it's um you know, I'm just listening to you talking, you know, some people were writing poetry and dangling it from a string on a tree branch, and other people are delivering breast milk um from a milk bank, and other people are doing different things. And so it's uh there's just so many things that can happen and can be done, and um, they really do fit into the whole. Um, and so uh, you know, it is uh I'm I'm I'm listening to it and thinking it's very biblical, right? You know, so biblical.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

I also, you know, I I've the the Corinthians text is right, the the early church in the Acts in Acts, you know, that there's some who are out there in the temple speaking truth to power, there's others who are feeding people. It's um, you know, yeah, and and and it's all in a rooted uh, you know, they kept saying, this is what neighborliness looks like. This is what it means to love your neighbor. It literally is checking in on your neighbor, right? Like we can make it all theological and theoretical and all the stop, which it is, and it really is. Ice is coming for my neighbor, don't you dare.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Right, right. And I think we've lost that neighborliness, right? Uh we had a we had a power outage in our neighborhood a couple of years ago. And I remember my husband went and like checked on like knocked on doors and checked on people, and people were so shocked, right? You know, what to do about it, right? You know, there was nothing uh dangerous happening. I mean, we we lost power and it was uh, you know, but uh it was uh uh but I do think that neighborliness is missing in so many different ways. And uh uh uh this is an opportunity to really build community in a different way. And um I can imagine places like Minneapolis that are having such a level, right? Because we're all having ice raids in our communities, whether they've seen unseen. The truth of the matter is they're everywhere right now. But uh when it's that intense, it's a incredibly it's traumatic in a different level. Yeah, but it's gonna be a different place on the other side of this, and uh it's building a far deeper intersectional resiliency um and theological resiliency. So um I've I've had people say to me recently, I've been going to church for years, but I just feel like the Bible sounds really different all of a sudden to me.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Yeah, I I have said that too that um I would never have asked for this on the one hand. On the other hand, this has been happening all along at levels that a lot of us never have to see. Right. And the gift is that now a lot of people can hear the gospel message in a way that they just didn't have to before. Didn't have to. And so it has certainly given opportunities to elicit what is really going on in scripture and to say, here's the parallels.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Right, right. And thinking back to your first call in in Tucson, right? I the parallel experience for me was when my husband and I were going through the immigration process for him during my first call. And you know, the woman, I remember her, I was at your wedding, who caught that, okay, I can see her, you know. Um uh they were going through the same process my husband and I went through 26 years ago, and that took a long time, but started then. And uh it's not a cheap process, it's not an easy process, it's hard work. Um, and we experienced and saw a lot of these ice tactics in that time. And I would tell people sometimes what was going on, and people would just be like in disbelief, like, oh, that's not you're you're exaggerating, or like that's not happening. And um, I remember being so frustrated and and and that inner violence, anger. I was so mad at people for not believing me. Yeah. Um, and there are moments I'm like, I wish I could go back to those people now and be like, see, I told you. But that's awful either. But it is uh we have been allowed in in the white community, especially to be uh so um disconnected from reality. And uh uh Jimmy Hawkins from the Office of Public Witness has been saying this. It's like uh the white part of the church is waking up because they realize like, again, exactly what you said, like we're not protected, and this protection we thought we had was illusionary anyway. Um and uh and those of us who've been in places of nonviolent witness and seen what can happen is uh you're not protected, but it is um, I think many of us have just not been in situations, you know. I look back with kindness in my heart at the people that thought I was exaggerating when I told them the truth of the stories that we saw inside ICE and Homeland Security facilities. It just was so hard for them to believe what I was saying and so disconnected from their version of reality and never would be connected. It did sound like it I was making up a fantasy, right? Yeah, but uh that's not healthy either. So it's a it's a mix of so many things, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Um I um if I could if I could just pin on that, you know. Um I I mean I I'm thinking of my father right now when you're talking and and all of the ways in which we have struggled, um, he and I over the years to see eye to eye and not believing each other. And and to have him be the one to say, you're going as my ambassador, what it took for him to to get here. Right, you know, we call that, I mean, that's so biblical, right? You know, Jesus will leave the 99 behind to go get the one. And the 99 are really mad. I'm like, wait a minute, we've been here all along. But the one who can change and and see, oh, I didn't see before and I do now. You know, that that is the real gift of of that's repentance, right? That's to turn, that's metanoia. And it can happen, and it is happening. And yeah, we have to deal with all of that anger and resentment. Why, why didn't it, why did it take so long? And in the end, that's what the realm of God requires. Right. Right.

The Universe On Justice’s Side

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Yeah, it's it's so many layers. Um, you know, for this uh series, this is our last Sunday, calm Sunday in this uh series. We'll send out a pastoral message around Easter, but this is officially the end of this series this weekend. And we've been looking at sort of the six, it goes back and forth in the literature principle pillar, sort of the same thing, right? Of nonviolence is there, there's six of them. And um, the last one in Kingian nonviolence is uh the universe is on the side of justice. Um believing in that uh, you know, uh uh sort of that arc of the moral universe, but but beyond that, you know, that um the promises of God and uh we're we're always working on that story of redemption and resurrection. And that is the deep story, no matter how hard the particular moment is, right? Um, and so I'm just curious if you could reflect on that pillar a little bit. This last one, the universe is on the side of justice and how that feels for you and has or felt for you being there and in the midst of all of that.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

So I'm gonna share something really personal, Shannon. Um there was a time in my life about 10 or 12 years ago when I was um very sick. And um and in that moment there was a time in there when when I experienced what others might call a near-death experience. I certainly wasn't near death, but I can only describe it as having crossed over. I don't know of any other way to describe it. I don't know how long it was. It could have been an hour, it could have been a second, it could have been a year. And time and space just didn't seem relevant. And it was just pure love. Pure, pure, pure love. And I didn't really ever want to leave that.

unknown 44:14

Right?

SPEAKER_01 44:15

I mean, and um, and I did, obviously. Um and there is just this I I consider that a gift. I would never have wanted to be that sick, but I got a gift from it that was this the sense of that's the reality. Like that was real. And all of this is real. I don't want to be escapist about it. But that was real. And in Minneapolis, um that Friday night after the day of truth and justice, we were invited to uh Jewish synagogue. Um Shir Tikvah is their name. And um I have been to synagogues on Saturdays, but I I don't think I had ever before been to a Friday night service. Oh, Shabbos. Yeah, right. You're going to this all the time. Yeah, right. Well, so here I am, this Christian pastor, just like sitting, you're like a little, a little, you know, here I am, you know, trying to fit in or just, you know, whatever, not trying to, you know, um uh you know, just just trying to be respectful. And here comes this guy who could tell that I was like new here. And it turns out he had done his um his master's, he's Jewish. Turns out he did his master's thesis on the gospel of John and starts talking to me about the gospel of John and all the things he'd learned. And we're singing, and this this rabbi sings and sings and sings, and the service went two hours because we just needed it. And um, and there was the part in the service that I didn't know was coming when you go outside to welcome the Sabbath. Well, it was minus 20, actual temperature, and my coat was two rooms over. And I was so filled with joy in this time of togetherness, this welcoming the Sabbath, this releasing of all of the, all of the ick. All of the ick. And we go out, and I wasn't even cold. Yeah, we weren't even cold. We were out there in the the moon and the stars and singing, and that is the universe on the side of justice. And and I I uh I I will never forget at a funeral once I had a quantum scientist tell me, you know, um all of this is just the universe gazing back at itself.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

In that deep and abiding love. And and I see you. I see you. Um it's it's justice, and at the same time, it's just us. And um, you know, I got lost during the march that we did. There was an actual march, and I got separated from my people from the call from the clergy group. And so I was just walking and like there's all these people, and I end up with I end up in the middle of some other group chanting some other thing, and and they look at me and I'm just like, Well, I lost my people. And they said, Well, you're our we're your people now. You know, that's that's really what it's all all about. We're each other's people.

unknown 48:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Yeah. And I hear that as a through line, right, Gusty. I mean, you're talking at the beginning about your church and your community. Um I don't think it's the church of last resort, it's just the church where that's embodied, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Where your people are yeah, we're your people. Yeah.

Animal Therapy And A Closing Question

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Yeah, which is great. Um one question I want to ask you at the at the very end. Um uh I don't go on Facebook very much, but that's how I knew you had gone to Minneapolis because I do log on episodically um still, but I I really am limiting myself so much these days. But um I noticed that at the end, I don't know if it was just you or it was something that was done for all of you who came or how this happened, but I noticed that there was someone with like an animal rescue that offered you all this opportunity just to like uh visit with, you know, uh our, you know, our creature friends. And um I can imagine that was so healing um after seeing so much um really horror in that place, um, to be with um a piece of beautiful creation in that home. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Yeah. Um I actually my flight was canceled because of the weather. There was a big storm that weekend. And um, so I ended up having a friend from a friend from college who lives there took me in and um and then I led worship that Sunday morning from her living room or from her bedroom, actually.

unknown 49:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

And I come out and she gives me one look at, you know, I was raw. I mean, let's just say I was raw. And she just says, you need animal therapy. So she took me to this, to the it's a state sustainable safari is is the name of this organization. And yeah, so I got to I got to pet llamas and and uh have birds all over me. And um and I even pet an alligator, which was really fascinating. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

I I once pet an alligator, but that was um somewhere in Louisiana when my parents lived there.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Uh but it's it's it was tape shut.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Yeah, yeah. This was a very small one. So it was yeah, but yeah. That yeah, small one.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness. There's some duct tape involved, right? But uh yeah. But I'm so grateful, Gusty. Uh, thanks for sharing some of this with us. And uh final question, I I picked this up from another podcast I love to listen to, which is like about, you know, it's a big podcast is called outrage and optimism, right? And so they they always ask this final question like, what are you mad about? Um, what are you optimistic about? But this is such a Presbyterian question, right? Like, what's right, where is total depravity showing up that just uh mystifies you? And uh where's the Holy Spirit showing up in ways that is just giving you so much joy? And uh, or like what's the challenge, what's the hope? Because we we live in both those worlds all the time, right? And in between. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

So I think the way I'll answer that is um by sharing that again, as part of my sabbatical, I'm I'm retracing some of my story. And um, I took a a pilgrimage through southern West Virginia last week, where I had done some ministry, gosh, 25, 30 years ago. And um, you know, this is the coalfields. This is um this is for lack of a better term, MAGA country. Um and um and I love it there and you know, um and I love the people there. And I know that we can no longer sustain fossil fuel development, and I also know the people whose jobs are on the line and I know the people who you know are voting for what happened in Minneapolis. And I I guess I I and I also know and and my congregation supports and works with uh organizations that are working for toward um just and sustainable transition. And that that is also part of the story of Southern West Virginia. So I I I guess that's both my outrage and my hope is that um you know, when we actually can look each other in the eye and and love each other and want the best for each other and understand why you would still vote for coal if your livelihood depends on it, or you know, like it just it adds a complexity to what I really wish were very clear. Were were very clear, was very clear. Um, and I guess what it this doesn't really answer your question. I guess what I'm realizing is that a life of ministry for me in the midst of the complexity, it's just gonna have to be how things are.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

Yeah, no, you answered the question. Okay. Oh my gosh, yes. I mean, it's uh and it's an interesting piece at the end, right? And that could be a whole other conversation, which is that um this ice stuff is actually rooted in uh uh environmental stuff. It is environmental and that's a whole other conversation for a whole other day, I know, but it's um the the it it there's uh there's all sorts of webs here.

Palm Sunday Parallels And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 54:20

And so um could we name it powers and principalities biblically and say there's there's environment, there's economics, there's white supremacy, and at the end of the day, as as ministers of the gospel, we are called to proclaim the the realm of God breaking in and inviting us into joyful resistance, right, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Well, thanks, Gusty, for being with us, um, for talking with us, um, and uh for your ministry and your witness. This is a great conversation for folks who are gonna be getting this on Palm Sunday, right? It was another city under occupation. Yeah. And uh Jesus came in a different gate to offer something different. Um so uh uh that's a very small version of the story, right? For abuse of it. Right. It's it's uh it there's there's quite parallel. Point parallels, and um I think uh the gospel is always giving us abundant gifts when we just need them. So um thank you so much for your witness. Thank you for going to Minneapolis for so many of us and uh and for the people there. I know I talked to so many friends in Minneapolis over that period of time and their tiredness and exhaustion, and they felt so buoyed by the presence of all of you. And um uh it's been a gift to talk to many people in Minneapolis over the last few months and to just give them space to talk on the phone, you know, the last few months. And uh, but I know that Ministry of Presence was so important that you all offered, um, both to the people there, but also to colleagues of ours that are, you know, uh that needed it uh to kind of tap out for a little bit and allow others to pick up. And so thank you. And thanks for just sharing that story with us and uh for our podcast and uh for this series for Lent as we try to sort of deepen our practices in this presbytery and also like really consider how they match for us theologically. So thank you so much, Gusty, for being you. And I hope you have a blessed rest of your sabbatical. Thank you for spending a little tiny piece of it with us, and um, we will hold your um precious niece, who's 10 in our hearts, and for her continued healing. Thanks for being part of Connecting Our Conversations. Thank you, Shannon.