Connecting our Conversations

Connecting Our Conversations: Space, Science, and Wonder

• The Presbytery of Southern New England • Season 6 • Episode 3

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In this episode of Connecting Our Conversations, Rev. Dr. Shannan Vance-Ocampo is joined by  Dr. Heidi DeBlock, Visiting Research Scientist with NASA’s Johnson Space Center Cardiovascular Laboratory, for a thoughtful conversation about space exploration, human physiology, scientific discovery, and the sense of awe that comes from seeing Earth in the context of the wider universe. Together, they reflect on what missions like Artemis can teach us about the human body, our shared future, and the wonder that connects science and faith.

About Dr. Heidi DeBlock
Dr. Heidi DeBlock grew up in Upstate New York and frequented Maine to ski, enjoy the beaches and honeymoon. She graduated from the University of Rochester with a degree in Astrophysics and attended the SUNY Buffalo Jacobs School of Medicine and Biomedical Science. She completed her residency in Internal Medicine and a Fellowship in Critical Care Medicine at the University of Rochester’s Strong Memorial Hospital.

Dr. DeBlock moved to the Portland area and is a hospitalist/intensivist for Maine Health Stephens Hospital . She is now a coach for students of the Tufts Medical College as well as teaching Problem Based Learning at TUSM. For the past 24 years she was an Associate Professor of Surgery at Albany Medical Hospital where she was an attending physician in both the Surgical and Neurosciences Intensive Care Units. She was on the faculty of the Albany Medical College and was the Director of the Critical Care Clerkship.

She has been working with NASA, Johnson Space Center's Cardiovascular Laboratory since 1990 as a Visiting Research Scientist. Her areas of study have included both Earth and Space based research on the areas of arrythmogenesis, orthostatic hypotension and their countermeasures. She was awarded the Spaceflight Achievement Award from NASA in 2003 for her contributions to research in Cardiovascular Physiology. Although based in Houston, Dr. DeBlock’s research has taken her to the Kennedy Space
Center and the Dreyden Spaceflight Research Center to attend shuttle landings over the past many years. She is currently working researching arrhythmias as a result of long duration spaceflight on the International Space Station. Dr. DeBlock talks about her research and work with NASA to many local schools, clubs and associations.

She was an adjunct professor of Science and Technology at Schenectady Community College, was the President of the Board of Directors of the Challenger Learning Center, is an avid skier, triathlete and enjoys traveling and playing a variety of instruments. She is the proud mother of 3 daughters and the wife of the Reverend Dr. Scott DeBlock.

Welcome And Why Artemis Matters

SPEAKER_03

Hello, everyone. This is Shannon Van Socapo, and I use she and her pronouns. And I serve as the general presbyter for the Presbytery of Southern New England. And this is Connecting Our Conversations, which is our podcast space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us to deepen discipleship. The Presbytery of Southern New England is a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church, USL. Today, as we're a few shows into our spring season for the Presbytery, we're talking to a special guest, Dr. Heidi DeBlock, who is here to talk us, talk with us about one of the best things that's been happening over the last few weeks in our country, in my opinion, the Artemis II space flights to the moon and back. I was pretty glued to YouTube, NASA, watching it, even though I, like many of you, am a Gen Xer, so I get really worried and anxious whenever there's uh some sort of a launch of people into space. Um, but it has been absolutely amazing to watch this historic launch and to see uh the astronauts come back from their trip around the moon and to see all of the images they have been sharing with us, and also to watch their successful splashdown last Friday in the Pacific Ocean. Um, Heidi's husband, Scott, is a pastor in the Presbyterian Church USA and uh my colleague, he's the resource presbyter of our partner presbytery, the presbytery of Northern New England. And um, Scott and I also worked together in my last call when I served in Albany Presbytery. And that's um how I got to meet uh his fabulous wife, Heidi. And I like to tease Scott that while I do like working with him, um, his wife Heidi is absolutely much cooler. And that is because Heidi works with NASA and knows all about outer space. So um that's um sort of a level that's completely different than what we do in ministry. Um Heidi is a visiting research scientist with NASA. She's been working with the Johnson Space Center's cardiovascular laboratory since 1990. She's examined astronauts, studied uh onboard data to determine the effect of weightlessness on the body. And uh her research has taken her to the Kennedy Space Center and to the Dryden Space Flight Research Center to attend a couple of shuttle launches. And so I thought that with everything that's been going on the last few weeks related to outer space, related to the moon, related to these fabulous astronauts, that it would be so interesting for us to invite someone in our larger uh Presbyterian ecosystem to talk to us about these things. And so I asked Heidi if she would be willing to join us for a podcast episode. So welcome, Heidi, and we're so glad to have you and uh welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you very much.

Meet A NASA Critical Care Doctor

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. So I know I've said a lot about you already, Heidi. Um, but uh please uh fill in whatever details I have not uh introduce yourself in whatever way makes uh good sense for you. I'm sure I left off a bunch of important information. I was trying to make sure I got everything exactly right while I was reading out some of the things you've done there.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, good job. Um I am a critical care physician. Um by training, I was at Albany Medical Center for 25 years, nearly 25 years in the surgical ICU there. Um I am now with Maine Health and I work as a hospitalist and still do critical care up from Maine Health up in Norway, Maine. And I love it. Um my background, actually, my my typical pre-med major in college was astrophysics. Oh interesting. So yeah, I needed a job. I went to medical school. So um uh I did study astrophysics and the whole thing all came together in medical school. And I started, uh went down to Johnson Space Center in 1990 as a student. Everything clicked, and they kept asking me back, and I kept going back willingly. And um like 1995 through 2003, I participated in a large research study um that got me to actually landings, not launches. Uh oh, landings, okay, sorry. And it dried. And uh that was a that was a lot of fun. I went to many landings. Uh so for me it's all about landing, not about launch. Uh it's uh it's fun to see them come down because so much has happened to our bodies as we've been in space. Um and and so now I'm starting to wind that down. I think the last time when I go down into the catch-up meetings every year uh for the human research project, but uh the last time I was working in the lab when they said, Oh, can you help us, you know, uh put all of this data into the archives? And I realized it was my own data.

SPEAKER_03

They were archiving you.

SPEAKER_01

I think I've been here a while.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, it's so interesting because when we've talked about this before, not you know on a podcast, of course, but you've had this whole career in in a medical practice and in doing uh critical care medicine in the hospital setting. But you've had this um, I guess essentially a um a consulting side on with with NASA. Is that a good way to sort of put it or the two have come together?

Space Research That Improves ICU Care

SPEAKER_01

The the two of the two have come together um nicely. Um and it it just it just happened. And it's sort of interesting because the way our physiology changes, a lot of that can be mimicked by uh and and that's how we do the research on Earth is to put people to bed. We put them at bed rest, and that's my patients in the intensive care unit. Having some of the same physiologic changes as the astronauts are, and so um it's uh just sort of interesting how it all comes together. You could always tell who my patients were because I always had my patients with their heads up so that they could have gravity and and not uh undergo a lot of those physiologic changes and um learned a lot from it. But the the the other cool part is that we gleaned so much technology from in science um from NASA that like our monitoring systems in the intensive care unit were invented because we went to the moon and we monitor the astronauts. You know, there's all sorts of fun stuff that I work with every day that's a result of NASA and having to create it.

SPEAKER_03

You know, it you're saying something that's making me remember a conversation I had last Sunday. I was at visiting one of our churches in my role, you know, as I do going around, and um, they had just had Sunday morning worship, and um, their pastor had, of course, preached a little bit about the Artemis flight that had just um, you know, come down on Friday. And uh apparently she preached quite a bit about this in her sermon. And um, I'm sure a number of people did preach about this on Sunday. And um, so they were talking about it, and uh we were talking about it before the meeting we had with some of the leaders of that church on Sunday. And one of them said to me, she said, I was so upset. I was um talking to one of my neighbors on Saturday and saying, Oh, did you watch this yesterday? It was so amazing. I loved watching the landing, and I was so excited, and I was I'm so glad they all came home okay and everything. And her neighbor said, I don't know why we're spending all this money. Why did we go to the moon? What a waste. And so I think uh, you know, just that little snippet you were saying about how some of the just the monitoring systems that we depend on and things like critical care, emergency care, intensive care. Um, sounds like some of them, some of that tech got piloted because of the NASA missions.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, get piloted. I mean, some of it was absolutely invented because uh think of think of your drug delivery systems also, the patch delivery system of medications. A lot of people wear patches, nicotine patches, yeah. Nicotine patches, um uh also develops and refined by NASA so we could deliver medications in space. The the pump systems like insulin pumps, there you go, came out of that technology. Yeah, a lot of our medications, especially from some of the work that we did and in physiology, um have refined how we monitor not just monitor but uh control patients' blood pressures on Earth. And and then just think of the, I mean, just think of the technological advances that way to get anybody in space. So um, you know, it's it's it's said that you know, a strong nation, uh a strong nation in science and technology and a leader in the world is that's two very strong things, a strong space department and a strong defense department. That's where technology lies in the things. So yeah, there's there's reasons to do it. And you know, not just to say, oh, we're gonna put a person up in space, but we have to learn about our own bodies and our own physiology to get someone up into space. We're not built for space at all. Right, right.

What Microgravity Does To The Body

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so say a little bit about that. What uh what are some of the changes that happen um to folks? I mean, we know um, of course, I'm a bit of a neophyte on this, right? Like I know about weightlessness, and of course, I can imagine some things that can happen. Um, and uh, but uh I know folks are sort of interested in some of those changes that have happened. And I know you're also studying some of the um uh it's it's called space blindness, I guess, that happens or loss of vision that can happen in space.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, vision changes, and uh space flight uh neuroocular systems, space flight associated neuroocular syndrome, sorry. Um so you name it in the body, it's gonna change because we're built to work in one G.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So every system is affected. So the minute that you that we push someone in the launch position, sort of head down, feet up, in that seated position, backwards, and then you get up into space, oh, we have a headward fluid shift. Um which is like when we go to sleep at night, there's no gravity pulling it down to our feet, right? So there our blood volume sort of increases, and um we get this headward fluid shift, and then our brains start going crazy with all sorts of things. Like we shouldn't have that much fluid in our neck veins, and when we do, our brain says, Oh, get rid of this extra fluid, and you start making urine, losing your volume. And that's one of the first things that happens is that we notice that you start losing volume. The astronauts get up there and you still start dipping away because you have to get rid of that volume. Your body's trying to adjust itself. And if you look at uh pictures of astronauts in space versus on Earth, you'll notice that they're congested. They're they're full in their faces, they sort of gain that water and their faces fill out. But that affects our hearts as well, kidneys, and so that's one of the first things that happens. The things that happen to the heart um are that we have a little change in our cardiac output, we have some changes in the structures of our heart. And um, what I studied was what happens when you come back to Earth and you've lost that fluid and you've had these changes in your body, and it's sort of like standing up quickly from bed in the morning, and sometimes you get very lightheaded.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01

You almost pass out. Well, that happened that can happen to the astronauts. It happens to about 25% of the astronauts, more women than men, and that's the estrogen effect. We figured that out, but the but um so so that happens. So we have to say, you know, how are we gonna be able to get to Mars and and be able to function? Right? How are we gonna be able to change our physio? Our physiology has been changed, counting gravity at uh, you know, back to gravity. Um, how are we how are we gonna be able to function? Are we gonna be passing out? You don't want to pass out when somebody might have to land uh a spaceship. Um so that's one thing, and that happens to the astronauts when they come back to Earth. That's one thing I studied. Arrhythmias, cardiac arrhythmias in space uh potentially be dangerous. Um we studied that. Uh, even the electrical intervals within the heart. Uh all the other organ systems are changed too. Our lung, the way our blood flows through our lungs is different. The uh way we uh absorb our nutrients um is different, uh, which also changes how we absorb medications and how we distribute our medications and how we metabolize our medications. Uh, we can leach calcium from our bones up in space, even if people are exercising. We're not we're not doing weight-bearing exercise.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So uh so we're leaching calcium out. Calcium is excreted through our kidneys. And the last thing you're gonna want to be doing when you go to Mars is having a kidney stone along the way.

SPEAKER_03

Having had one of those, absolutely, exactly.

The Mystery Of Space Vision Loss

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's all fun.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So, you know, so it's you know, it's bigger than that, but you know, it's uh along the way. And so now we're just now we we're figuring out this space flight associated neurocular syndrome. A lot of people are working on it. Um, and uh that is the uh some of the astronauts are coming back from long duration orbit with vision problems, they go up with 2020 and they come back with you know 2200. And um, and some of them are horribly affected, and it may take has taken some years uh to correct and possibly not even correct, you know, there's went with no glasses and now they're back with glasses. So, what is going on uh either in the brain and increasing our intracranial pressure affecting the eye, or what is going on in the eye itself? And we're doing ultrasounds uh of the orbit itself, the eye, and looking at the back of the eye and how these little folds are changing and how the nerves uh you know sort of can potentially swell up. It's there's a lot of stuff going on, there's a lot of theories, but there's some really, really interesting um physiology being figured out about the eye. I think in the long run, that's really gonna help uh patients here on Earth too, with any uh ocular problems because we're figuring so many things out. Right. So uh, anyhow, that's a problem. You want to be able to see when you get to Mars. Or if you're on the moon, you're like, okay, is this person gonna need glasses six months, eight months into their one-year mission? Um, which has happened. So you know, there's there's everything is affected. We're we're born in one G, right? Made for one G. We're not made for microgravity. So by by putting our bodies up there and essentially them breaking, we can see them restructure themselves when we come back to Earth, and it's like de-engineering a machine, right? That's how you figure it out, and that's exactly what we're doing to figure out this how our bodies work.

Astronauts As Ethical Research Partners

SPEAKER_03

I'm also hearing a lot of you know, sacrifice and all of that for the astronauts themselves, right? Um, it's not just the, you know, we think mostly probably of the worst case scenario, right? Um, an astronaut being killed um in the line of duty um in in serving, we think of the sort of um catastrophic failures that have happened, but there's these um much more subtle things uh that are going on for them, and that they some that's known and some that's unknown, right? So they're I mean, they are themselves part of the science experiment.

SPEAKER_01

Uh absolutely. Yeah. Um so what uh and and they know that you of course, yeah. Right. You you sign up for a potentially fatal mission that's gonna happen. Um just an anecdote is that uh a friend of mine, uh who's an astronaut, you know, is like, oh, this is great, and he he went up many times. Um and so but it it it didn't hit them until before they went and did their wills before they before they flew. And then that's when it really hit home oh oh this this is here. This is really a possibility. Um I mean there's a essentially a two percent failure rate, right? A little a little less than that, two missions out of 135 for um just for shuttle.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um the uh you know the only Apollo disaster was Apollo 1 for Gemini Mercury, Gemini, Apollo. Um and uh but still you don't you sign you sign up for it and then you know what you're getting into. Um that was the the anecdotal part. The the other the other part of that is is that um you sign up to do science. You don't sign up for a ride into space.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um the astronauts are there to do science and to to further the mission of mankind. Um it's not like oh hooray, I'm just gonna go up into space. Right. You're working as an astronaut learning everything. You can work in a lab, you can do your own science. Uh, a lot of the PhDs, well, MDs do uh there there are things to do. There are research projects. And then when it comes to uh doing the science, um uh how it worked in shuttle days is that we'd have a pitch day. Uh, we had our research projects, we had talk with the astronauts about them, and then it's up to the astronauts' discretion um what research projects they want to join in.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So they're there to do science. So the astronauts will say, Yeah, I want to do A, B, C, and D. And everyone will say, uh, you know, B and C don't sound like something I would want to do, but I'll do A and D. You know, we have to explain to them it all is um, you know, done ethically, and they have, you know, all of all the research has to go for through the investigational research board. You know, it's all you know, it's real science going on. And um, and then the astronauts will join in our research. And usually uh when it when we get to being able to do flight data, we'll do uh before they fly, uh during the mission, if if there is something to do during the mission. Sometimes we do. Um, we've studied astronauts who are out doing their spacewalks, um, and then after the mission as they recover. So you have to do, you know, what when we're whole, when we go up into space and break, and then when we come back broken and fixed again, um, uh is is sort of look at the whole spectrum. Um and so the astronauts um are beholden to that. They landing, when I would go to landing, you know, they would come right into us, or we would even greet them sometimes uh right off the orbiter on the tarmac. Um uh and and you know, their families are waiting for them. Yeah, but they they've kindly allowed us to have them for the next few hours uh before they see their families to get all of our research data done.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And we do research. I don't check them out and say, Oh, you'll have your heart and your blood pressure, great. Right. I'm actually I'm not doing medicine, I'm doing physiologic research.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_03

And there's another team that's checking out to make Sure, they're okay and all of that at work or it all goes together.

SPEAKER_01

It doesn't take very long. Yeah, yeah. It all sort of goes part and parcel, but yeah. Right. So um, so we we want them before they're really uh getting used to gravity again. That's why we have them as fast as we can.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right. Yeah, and I saw that when they uh landed them on the uh ship when they came off the helicopters, they went right into the uh they were saying they were going right into the medical.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, they'll get checked out. And then if if uh our lab actually didn't do any research on Artemis II, I think on Artemis III. Oh, okay. Um that yeah, you grab, you grab and go because you you need that research. I don't know how much what what with that prove. But um it's you know, it's hot flight. And and they they're there, and that's why they're there. Right, right. Yeah, that's a it's amazing research.

Building Toward The Moon And Mars

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, it's it's really amazing research, and it's amazing to, you know, to continue that process of um learning, you know, from them and also having that um affect what we do here, right? And um I just think about my own um, you know, personal history. Uh, you know, I have had family members who've had illnesses and even had a repeat illness, but the the difference in the medical care over you know two and a half decades is is so starkly different, right? Because of the advances in medicine. We all sort of understand that. And uh, you know, this is this is one of the pieces of that that puzzle for all of us, um, as well as getting ready for not just current research and medicine now, but getting ready for being able to be successful in the future and future um launches for for NASA and future flights.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And and that's you know, that's that's part of our research, is that you're always sort of looking a mission ahead. You we we looked at, you know, we had uh the Apollo and and then we had our first you know orbiting, you know, orbiter up in space, um, and in in in the the 70s, and and that gave us some a little bit of long duration, and then the mirror was up, and then we got shuttle going. Um and those are all gathering data for the next sets of missions, shuttle missions. We were gathering data and trying to figure out if things were safe so that we could build the International Space Station, right? Right? We had to figure out is this safe to do these long duration extra vehicular activities, spacewalks? And uh, you know, are the EVAs going to be safe? Are we gonna be able to put somebody out there for eight hours? Is what's the body going through? What's the technology that we need? Um, and then getting getting the pieces built and getting that all built. And the the shuttle was short duration mission, that was 21 days or less. Okay. Shuttle mission being around 21 days. And now we're in studying long duration because things change. Our bodies are definitely different between short duration and long duration orbit. Right. Now, and our long duration orbits, we're saying, okay, uh, you know, is it less than 180 days or 100 and I don't know, I think is it 120 or something like that, and then 200 days essentially, and then greater. So you're sort of dividing that up into are you there for three months, six months, a year?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And and looking at at those astronauts. Um and and so that the the data that we get there and learn about ourselves and the technologies and all will that's what we'll use in getting someone on the moon as a and a moon base um or to Mars, which is gonna be six months duration to get there. Probably right now it's about six to eight months, but by the time it happens, the propulsion systems will be better, hopefully four to six months. Um then because of the way the planets rotate around the sun, the length of our year versus the length of Mars year, it's gonna take you're gonna once you get to Mars, you're there for about 18 months.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Um can launch back. Yeah, so it's not like hey Mars, how you doing? I'm here gonna ask. Right. I just spent four months getting or six months getting here. Uh it's like, oh, I just spent six months getting here.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Stick around for a while.

SPEAKER_03

Stick around for a while.

SPEAKER_01

Return on my investment, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So we have to figure out uh where are you gonna live on Mars, right? Uh there's a lot of lava tubes, probably gonna live under the surface of the planet, which will provide safe housing, uh, but it will also provide uh protection from um uh you know solar radiation. And and so you get, you know, these are the things you got to think about. How are you gonna get enough food there? How can you do all of this? You know, hydroponics, we've got NASA, right? How are we gonna grow stuff when you don't have soil? That was another thing to come out and get honed up by NASA was hydroponic gardening. So it's you know, you gotta it's it's sort of interesting, these inventions that you have to come up with. You're gonna see, I think what we're gonna see too in the future is a lot of miniaturization because there's no space in space that you know we just used. If you look, if you go to air in space or oh yeah, they're tiny and you see the Apollo cap.

SPEAKER_03

I know, I've been there and seen it.

SPEAKER_01

They're tiny, and those astronauts were not large.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, they're oh yeah, I saw them uh they were joking on stage. Um, oh, I'm forgetting his name. The Canadian astronaut was saying about the uh uh Commander Weissman of this one. He said they were sitting, uh the four of them were sitting on this stage and they were at the the two ends. They really didn't look they were too far, and he's he sort of said, This is the this is the furthest we've been away from each other in you know 10 days or something. And the other guy, he's definitely a joker and a ham, right? You could tell he got up and he uh the Canadian was standing up and he got up and he went and sat in his seat and then he grabbed his pant leg and he it must be one of those pants that has one of those little hooks in it, you know, like cargo pants, and he hooked his finger in it and he was pulling his leg towards him sort of playfully and saying, you know, we're close again, we're close now.

SPEAKER_01

And uh they're very that was hilarious.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, they've definitely been that, you know, they've been uh, you know, completely, you know, kind of on top of each other this whole time, right?

SPEAKER_01

And Artemis actually is is quite roomy compared to Apollo. You know, I just thought I thought it was fun when that when we were listening to the downlink and and watching them approach the moon, and they were rotating windows. Right. I mean, they have windows even. I mean, it's like one window in Apollo. They could rotate windows, they didn't have to just rotate windows, they all had windows, and they wouldn't get too tired out, and they were rotating through on my cow. Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty roomy if you can rotate a window. And they were not there, they did have room to move, and you're like, but they use every bit of space and space under the seats in the in the floors and the ceilings, everything goes, uh everything gets stowed everywhere. It's just just no space and space. But right because of that, though, I think uh technologically, we're gonna see a boon of coming up because we have to have a get it invented, and you're gonna see it. It absolutely all this trickles down, right? Right have here on earth. Yeah.

Awe, Faith, And Seeing Earth Whole

SPEAKER_03

Well, the other thing, of course, I was watching was, you know, as they were talking, they just were um, you know, so filled with awe at the moon when they got there, of course. And um, even as people who've had, you know, been out in space and have had lots of experiences, this was, of course, you know, new for them. And um you can watch, you know, footage and all those things, but it doesn't prepare you, of course. And it's sort of impossible to imagine what they saw, right? But um uh you know, sort of to pivot to this uh faith element of all of it. Um uh, you know, it was I thought it was so interesting to hear sort of the uh the theology that they were all kind of offering in different ways. You know, they all had their own uh different um clearly spiritual um traditions that they were working from. And um, but just how they talked, that sense of awe. I'm curious how um what that's like for you as you know, you're married to a clergy person, right? You're watching them have this absolutely, you know, ethereal experience and um um, you know, supernatural, uh godly, you know, sort of experience. It's it's pretty amazing. Uh, what's that like for you as you are working on a project like that?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think I think being married to the minister is sort of interesting. When we were dating in college, and he Scott was actually Scott was the pre-med I was not. Oh, interesting. That's where we all ended up. Yeah. Um, you know, and he's like, you know, we having a deep some kind of a deep conversation. He was like, you know, what what are we children of? And I'm like, We're we're children of the universe. We are made of the stuff of the universe of the earth. And he is like, Well, I'm a child of God. And I'm like, how much different is that?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and and to me it's not because it's all how how how are we here? Um I think what what's I think um, well, we can talk about lots of deep stuff, but uh as far as the astronauts go, yeah, there's there's nothing they'll they'll tell you there's nothing like the deep black void of space.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um and and then looking at the earth. And you know, the the the ISS and the shuttle astronauts are in low earth orbit, they're chance 225 miles above Earth. Right. So you you can see the curvature of the earth, you can see the earth, but you're you're going around the earth, you're not seeing it as a blue ball.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And that that's something that the the uh Apollo astronauts and the Artemis astronauts um are having the privilege of seeing. So there is I'm sure there's no describing that for them of that all that they see. Um and and they all have their descriptors. Um I I gotta tell you so so uh I I I I was uh very fortunate to uh we had some cosmonauts uh visiting Albany uh from their Albany sister city of Tula, Russia, and we had two cosmonauts, very very famous guys uh who did the first docking and of two Soyuz they uh did a walk from one to the other together. Uh but one of one of these gentlemen uh had done the very first spacewalk uh for Russia, and he was the first spacewalker. And his name was Evgeny Krunov and and Evgeny and Alexei Yelisev. Uh like I said, super super famous guys, uh really legends uh next to Yuri Gagarin in cosmonaut history and in space history. And uh so they were in Russia and Scott and I were sort of I don't know, we were just toting them around everywhere.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01

We did this, we did that. And it was it it was fun just having him in the car with us. Uh uh Evgeny was Russian speaking only, very communist Russia. Alexi was is still alive um in his 90s, um more of the capitalist had gotten around and spoke very good English. And and you know, talking about our families in the car and you know, their grandchildren, and just just these super sweet guys who had done this monumental thing. And Scott Scott asked them, did you see God? And and I I I thought, you know, wow, what a fascinating, you know, a great question.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, great question.

SPEAKER_01

Here you are, like you're the first guy doing this. Yeah. First of all, you gotta be paying attention to what's going on.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right, right. Yeah, what's what's happening?

SPEAKER_01

This is working, and that this technology is top notch. Yeah, and you gotta be focused, and and you're talking back to Earth and everything, and you but you have to have that moment of wow, like what is what is this around me? And and looking down on the earth, and um and uh in in it and Evgeny, yeah, he sort of pounded his heart after it was translated to him. And he was like, Yeah, there is there is something there. And and and he sort of he got very a little choked up about it, they asked him. And that that was neat. It's really a sort of a special moment between him and them. Um, I think that he for as crusty as he was, crusty communist, yeah, yeah. And just having his moment of humanity and awe and uh just breaking down about it was really he was still touched. This was probably oh, this is probably in the late 90s, early 2000s, um that this happened. And they did this in 19. I'm gonna look it up real quick. Um uh 1969. It's when the two of them did it. Um ifgeny first went up, um, I think he did his in 66. So like 30 years. 30 years still getting to them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How can you not?

SPEAKER_03

Well, oh yeah. I saw that also in that that press conference with uh with Christina, the the female um astronaut that went up. Um she she was talking about the the blue dot and the vastness of of the uh of the darkness, the blackness of of space around the blue dot, and how um I I she she did, she she got choked up, right, uh on stage and as during the press conference and took a minute to kind of gather herself and talk about that. And um it's uh it I I can only imagine because you know, sort of the feeling we get watching it right is just a real sense of oneness of at least that I get. I don't know if other people feel this way, but you know, sort of this this oneness of humanity while you're considering or trying to consider, you know, what they're looking at. Um and uh just imagining what's going on, you know, during this. You know, we're having a war in Iran and uh talking about, you know, uh blowing up whole civilizations during this. And um, they're up in space seeing this oneness. That was one of the things that was really bothering me personally while they were up there, was thinking, oh my gosh, they're looking at this this beauty and this this oneness of our planet, and we're just sort of not able to even like, you know, behave well with each other at the most basic of levels, right? Uh, all the way to, you know, the potentiality of you know, nuclear weapons that was even getting sort of thrown around as as sort of uh uh like it was a joke or something. So it was um I felt that was sort of jarring, but I think that uh uh it was clear that they they they come back with a a deep love of um, you know, that and they I heard all of them say it, you know, this isn't about us, this isn't about the United States, it's not about Canada, it's not about the sort of nationalities of the particular people that were on this particular flight. This is this is about all of us, this is about, you know, this this this oneness of of humanity. Um, and so, you know, I'm always thinking, you know, as the sort of the theologian in me is thinking about, you know, like what's going on with all that? What are we thinking about? Um and uh I was thinking to myself, do they have a chaplain? Is there a chaplain for the astronauts? And how does one of us get that job?

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Yeah, they uh you go to church someday down in Clear Lake, Florida, you'll see all the astronauts.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. And of course some of them are Presbyterians. We know who all the uh Oh yeah, they're all in the uh archives now, the Press Train Historic Society and things like that. But uh yeah, I that's you know, selfishly, that's a gig I want. Like, can NASA how can how can we, you know, start working for NASA as the chaplain? Yeah, I know, I know. He's probably he knows more than it. It's it's what I joke with people when they go on a good trip. I'm thinking, you need a personal assistant, I need to go to whatever exotic place it is you're going to with you, right? You know, we always we always want to go places, right? And and do those exactly.

SPEAKER_01

And um that yeah, it's you see the bigger picture. Yeah. You see they see they see the big b the bigger picture in in the vastness of it all. Um I think, you know, when 9-11 happened, there were only I think only two astronauts uh in the International Space Station watching it. Take they went over it. And they were there and we were here. And they were it was really tough. Right.

SPEAKER_03

That's the other side of it, the the trauma they can go through watching us suffer and not being able to be here.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Uh you know, that's one of the other sacrifices they have is what if you're up there and something tragic here happens on a to your family member or to Earth itself. You have to think about that as well. A lot of psychological aspects I even talk about. One of them was bit talk about the vastness of space. You're you're I I have an acquaintance who uh studies a lot, does a lot of the psychology and he he's like me, he's a psychiatrist by day and plays with NASA by night. And uh he you know, his big thing is we can test, we can put we can put astronauts, we can put humans in a can somewhere for a year and make them work with each other, and we do that all the time.

SPEAKER_00

Sure.

SPEAKER_01

Um uh but you you always know that you can get out.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

The Psychology Of Deep Space Isolation

SPEAKER_01

You got gravity, you know, you're you know you're on Earth. The issue is gonna be Earth is here, is here, you're here. Earth is a speck, Mars is a speck, you belong to no one, you're looking at black. You're gonna have some serious psychological problems. So trying to deal with that. And that's something that we can't we can't simulate here on earth. So that that's gonna be very interesting too. Who do you belong to? Where is my spot?

SPEAKER_03

Right, right. And and what does it do to your you know, spiritual development? Um, you know, as a if you're a person of faith, you go of of any faith, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03

And you go and take one of these journeys and come back, you're thinking about something no one else is really thinking about around you.

SPEAKER_01

Um you get it. You get it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah, you're able to really to look at it. I imagine that a lot of the astronauts uh potentially come back and have um uh you know uh deep feelings around things like uh peacemaking and uh the climate crisis and things like this. You know, they they come back sort of um in a uh even potentially an even stronger position. position than they were on things like that. You know, that it's just because the perspective making that you get of how singular we are is uh life changing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Altering. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So so um anything else about this mission, this Artemis mission that has stood out for you over the last two weeks that's been interesting or surprising or so important?

SPEAKER_01

It's so important just because you know we're back to the moon. Uh yeah. I think uh I think it's sort of interesting for me the sort of the technology, the mind-blowing technology for me was I'm old enough to know Apollo and to see a beautiful Saturn V style rocket.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

But with the boosters of shuttle.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And so from for me it was like looking at this beautiful admixture of technologies together. And that blew my mind. I'm like okay I'm sort of watching a shuttle take off and the solid rocket boosters came off and got the liquid rocket booster and da da da uh but it's a rocket like it's not an orbiter.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Uh and and for me that that was like a little I gotta gotta get my head totally squared onto that one. And then watching it land just like Apollo. Right. Um and the ISS got pictures of it landing. I don't know if you've seen that no I haven't seen that the ISS has pictures of it burning through the atmosphere.

Artemis Technology And Launch Day Nerves

SPEAKER_03

Oh yeah yeah yeah so I mean just spectacular they must be no I just uh you know we I it was great yeah it just no I think everything about it was elating yeah yeah no I know I was one of the many people that was texting you at you know at launch and during splashdown I know your phone blowing up and people like me who are my age you know who are Gen Xers were anxiety texting you saying oh my God I can barely watch I'm watching like this you know like through my fingers because I'm so stressed out and it was it was really interesting because there were there were some very anxious people yeah not as anxious as you text me.

SPEAKER_01

I I you know bear out I did have to tell Shannon they're alive.

SPEAKER_03

They're alive they're fine mass is always about hurry up and wait and it's right right we knew it's gonna take a couple of hours to get them I was out to dinner with friends we had our smartphones sitting on the table just streaming and the waitress was coming back and forth you know checking on our you know we were ordering getting drinks and we were getting appetizers you know it's sort of all going on and she would look at our phones and come back and you know and then she'd go check on some other tables and she'd say oh the table over there they've got their phones on so I think like half the restaurant had their phones going you know during dinner.

SPEAKER_01

Sometime you didn't have your phone on at the table was that night.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Yeah well we just had you know sitting there and while we were eating and just sort of looking over to see you know how far along were we because it was going on for a while right but uh but it really was um beautiful to watch and um you know and you know I am showing my age here right like I don't I wasn't around for the Apollos so I don't have a sense of that really other than you know watching footage or movies really watching movies and um which is sensationalized I know. And so um you know really what I've watched has been shuttle flights and this and the space station has become sort of the regular thing that's always going on. You don't you barely think about it anymore.

SPEAKER_01

Um so right and that you know the space station was initially supposed to decommission in 24. Right and so now they're saying 30. Uh they're trying to figure out okay somebody take it over they just gonna are we gonna take it apart and just you know let it burn up and and re-entry there's there's thoughts and ideas but right that that'll be interesting. But that that's long in the tooth right yes a lot of duct tape up there.

SPEAKER_03

I'm sure there is and that's that's always interesting too missions when shuttle missions would you know empty out empty the stuff into our lab and bring everything into where recorders were uh after the astronauts came in and they brought all their gear in and everything there'd always be a little box of duct tape that you know was full when they went up there are many rolls gone when they came right right well that's a that's an old technology from here that's had so many uses of so many types.

SPEAKER_01

I I heard a uh uh this is great a woman uh uh speaking once about uh a Apollo 13 and everybody's like oh wasn't that movie wonderful you know about how smart people can be and they can come together in time of crisis and make this happen and failure is not an option. And she said what I learned from that was the power of duct tape.

Hope, Funding Fears, And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_03

Yes you gotta hold on to it. Yeah but last time I flew over the Caribbean a year ago coming back from Colombia um most of the flights over the Caribbean um and uh I was sitting near a wing and I looked out and there was a lot of duct tape on that wing of that plane. And um yeah I was a little like oh and then I thought to myself well you know there I I did like remember some space stuff and I was like well you know they wouldn't have put the plane up probably if they didn't think we were gonna get home and stuff. But I I haven't I was actually a little surprised I've not seen that much duct tape on a wing. I was you know that was also I think the last time I'm gonna fly that particular airline but um uh we're always swapping airlines going back and forth to Colombia but um anyway I was a little a little shocked and a little it's like oh I'll just talk myself into feeling good about this until we're almost until we land at uh JFK, you know, five o'clock or something. So I appreciate you being on Heidi and just sort of sharing some of your story because um uh you know there's just a million aspects to all of these things that go on and um I say it a lot to people but one of my favorite passages in in scripture is you know that the Corinthians passage about being the body of Christ right and one person is the hand and the other is the foot and not everybody you know that uh goes goes through all these different things and not everyone has the same function, right? And uh and I've I've always thought of that passage of you know we all have different gifts and different intelligences that we've been offered and giftedness that we bring together for the whole right and um uh but I think you know you think about a a a space flight you know all of the different giftedness that comes into that from so many different places but then also how it it you know works in different ways and and that idea that that wisdom is is one of um the gifts we get from God but it's also a gift to be used you know in a way that is um you know for the building and the healing of the creation right ultimately um and so uh this is this is a piece of that that larger puzzle so um so I'm glad you're able to share some of your stories with us and some information about some of this and um I hope I'll get to see uh the next step it's 28 right is when the next Artemis will go is that that's the plan 28 something like that 728 yeah who knows yeah see what happens exactly see what happens with all of it yeah well the last question for you is um I've I usually ask people this at the end of the podcast right is um uh you know what's one thing that um is just um absolutely giving you so much hope in the work that you do related to this work with NASA and what's something that um makes you you know um a little outraged you know uh kind of makes you crazy uh is is such a challenge uh with what you're dealing with when you think about some of these these these really big questions and big pieces.

SPEAKER_01

Oh I think definitely the hope is uh the science that we're doing and that we like you just talked about, you know, you're trying to advance the body and for that is humanity and trying to learn and expand our technology and our knowledge of ourselves and um and the this is humanity coming together to try to put someone in space. It doesn't happen with a bunch of a few people happens with tens of thousands of people and uh through the through these many years and all coming together and giving of themselves and and the technology that we have gleaned from this and the knowledge has really helped humanity and and that gives me hope that that we're still learning and figuring out these really fascinating things. The outrage you know uh it has to be funded but you cannot cut NASA's budget in half next year.

SPEAKER_03

Right right yeah that's that's what uh we need science we need uh intelligent people we need education we need strong uh uh education of our youth because we just energized a bunch of kids who want to grow up and become astronauts just like I did when I was watching Apollo right and and great you know in a couple weeks I'm gonna participate in uh main space day five hundred and sixty two middle schoolers oh wow yes I get to do like four you know 45 minute sessions with oh wow the day these kids are gonna be doing different sessions and stuff and it's just uh good for them we we have to foster this we cannot take away from this they are our future well they're our next breakthrough right yeah one of them is gonna get the next Nobel Peace Prize in science or technology or peace or something you know it's uh the future is in them essentially yeah very much well thanks Heidi for being with us so grateful uh for you sharing some of this and um it's always so much fun the connections we make in ministry the people we get to meet and uh thanks for being part of our podcast being part of this big work of taking care of um not just the astronauts but of our home and the home that we have as part of the larger universe God's creation so thank you so much for being part of that and uh we'll have you on any time to tell us more. Um and um we're just so grateful for you. Thanks for being part of Connecting Our Conversations.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah we could space we could talk for hours it's always fun. Absolutely. Thanks Heidi. Thanks yeah