Nathan Bond & building beauty, business, and purposeful giving

This week on Givers, Doers, & Thinkers, Jeremy Beer sits down with Nathan Bond, co-founder of Rifle Paper Company, to explore entrepreneurship, education, and philanthropy. Nathan reflects on how his personal experiences have shaped his approach to giving, the importance of clear criteria in philanthropy, and why investing in local communities remains essential.

Let’s go!

Sponsored by AmPhil, helping nonprofits advance their missions and raise more money: https://amphil.com/

#podcast #interview #nonprofit #newepisode

Center for Civil Society's YouTube Channel

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This week on the podcast, join us as we speak with Nathan Bond, co-founder with his wife Anna, of Rifle Paper Company, about how building a super successful brand led them to think more deeply about their philanthropy. Let's go. Welcome to Givers, Doers, and Thinkers, a podcast on philanthropy in civil society. I'm Jeremy Beard, and it's great to have you with us. We are recording on March 30, 2026. And this season, as you may know, we're highlighting givers, especially people who are doing things that are pretty interesting, innovative, and strategic, or very thoughtful about their giving, all in light of the semi-quincentennial that we're celebrating this year for our country. And to that end, I'm excited to have with us today Nathan Bond, co-founder with his wife Anna of Rifle Paper Company, an international stationary and lifestyle brand based in beautiful Winter Park, Florida, which they founded in 2009. And they continue to be on the board of Rifle Paper Company and to consult for it. And if you have not heard of Rifle Paper Company, I can only say that you must be male. That's about the only way that could possibly be the case. That's just the statistical reality. Nathan led the company as CEO until 2021. As I said, currently serves on the board. Also serves on the boards of the Acton Institute, the Foundation for Economic Education, the John Henry Newman Institute, and the Chesterton Academy of Orlando. Nathan and Anna still reside in the Orlando area. Nathan is a native of the Orlando area, and they have five children aged 10 to two. So it's amazing that Nathan is awake and coherent right now. Nathan, welcome. Thanks for having me. Appreciate you doing this. The rifle paper company is about the same age as the company I co-founded, Antville. Your company's been just slightly more successful. I had no vision. Like we had no vision. My co-founder and I, Jeff Kane, when we started Antville, I feel like. We wanted to pair mortgages. Were you and Anna the same, or did you have high ambitions from the start for what you all were doing?

SPEAKER_03 2:21

That's a good question. You know, I always believed that Rifle was going to be very successful from the very beginning. So I would say definitely there were ambitions. How successful I couldn't have imagined, not because I didn't think we were going to do really well and people were going to respond. It just, I guess I don't I don't think my brain could process how large something could become, if that makes sense. But I always believed in our product and I knew it was great and I knew it would work. So there was no doubt in my mind we could go in all sorts of directions with it. We could imagine different revenue channels for what we were doing, that people would be excited about what we were doing. That was never a doubt. It was just kind of, I guess my I hadn't considered how far you could take something like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah. What gave you that level of belief? What had you seen? Obviously, you'd obviously see Anna's designs. She's sort of a genius, basically, uh, as an artist. Was that it? I mean, was there something else you're like, oh man? Like you'd already seen before you started the company that people were responding in this and create very Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Well, so when we first off, I knew Anna had rare talent, not just as a designer and an artist, but also sort of just great taste, great understanding of customers and what they're looking for. Very much a taste maker, not much of a trend follower. I I just always knew she was, she had a magic that was different than other creatives. And I was always in the creative space. I was a musician full-time at the time in a touring rock band, and I was the front man, and Anna would do art for our album covers, for our show posters. She was just experimenting with different styles. And the response to the designs she was doing all over town or when we would tour were way bigger than the music. It was like hilarious to me because I knew for a fact people liked the aesthetics she was developing around the band as much as they liked the songs or more. So she just always had a, had a kind of a magic out of the sort of taste level that was unique and cool and different. And when we had the idea to start a business around that, she had, you know, she had been experimenting for years with different styles and kind of had started to come into her own with something that we thought we could bring to the market. She visited a bunch of, oh, not a bunch. She visited a trade show, the National Stationary Show. And when we first started, we that was very much what we were. It was a stationary company. We always knew we could get into all these other categories, but we just saw that as a good way to start. And she went and visited and she reported back to me what she had found there. And I think that was where the confidence was. We kind of, it was 09, and a lot of companies had just gone out of business. It was like a tough economic time. It was just kind of the industry needed uh something fresh. And a lot of the nicer companies were kind of letterpress brands. So they were sort of nice paper, nice production process, cool designs, two to three colors. No one was doing full color illustrated, kind of lush, also high quality, high production value designs. It wasn't really there. It was sort of like you had full color Hallmark cards, and you had cool niche kind of indie companies that were doing cool stuff, but it was all letterpress. So we were like, what if we did cool full color stuff? No one's doing that on like better materials. And so it was very much just a different angle than anyone else was doing. Now there's tons of companies like this, right? After we did it at the time, you guys, right? I mean, largely. But at the time it was just a totally different way to think about as as basic as that sounds, it was at the time just different. And also our design level was was really high out of the gate. And yes, sure enough, first rate show we went to, it was really buzzy. All the retailers were very excited because it was something new, which is already good in 09. Just to have something new and exciting is uh is nice because so many you've lost a lot of suppliers, and also it was just really uh executed well, I would say, for a startup. And it was different, differentiated, and we kind of kept differentiating and kept iterating and kept going from there. And so yeah, I think that was where a lot of my confidence went. I knew what the competition looked like, or even not I don't love the word competition, but I knew what the rest of the industry looked like. I knew what we had was was special, would work, and I think that's a big part of it. You know, n yes and no, like a lot of it was learning on the job. Having toured in a rock band for four years did teach me a lot of lessons because that was very much running a business. You know, we had to book tours, we had to get merchandise made, we had to network, we had to, I don't know, record, we had to make the problem. You know, it was a very um, and it's a tough industry to navigate and to operate in. And we did, you know, we were a low-level act, but it was serious enough that I was able to learn a lot from it. And especially kind of what not to do, to be honest, just stupid mistakes that I would do differently if I were my 19-year-old, 20-year-old self today, that I think would have helped us reach a different tier, actually, in that stage of our lives. And a lot of those mistakes I immediately took to Rifle when we started Rifle. I was sort of, it was really, for instance, really big on every opportunity that's worth taking, you have to take it even if you feel unready for it. Because opportunities come and go and they're not always there. So I was very much, you know, rammed by the horns, if that's even the term. I'm not sure that's the right metaphor, but very much that way. It's bull by the horns, actually, I think. I'm not mistaken. Rams sounded a little more I think rands have horns too. I don't know why it can be both. I was always ramp. I'm still a little damned for for the rest of my life. Yeah. But yeah, we were we were really, you know, I I think so, and that was very relevant to Rifle because early on we were getting tough requests from retailers and not just on the product level, even you know, promotional opportunities for blogs, stuff that was was tough for us to do because we were just kind of, it was just the two of us, and we only had limited capacity, and we were learning how to do everything on the fly, but we were very much into saying yes and not being intimidated and just you know, pretending like we knew what we were doing and making it happen. And um, and that was a big that helped us out of the gate. I don't think that's the reason for our success, but I think it helped a lot.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah. What was the period of the most explosive growth? How fast, how how long did it take until all of a all of a sudden?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

I mean, I think right away it was off to a big start, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Um getting, I mean, it was so hard in the beginning. It's just it's just a lot to think about. You know, when we first started, we couldn't even get the product made. We had to go through multiple factories and production runs just to get a level of quality that we felt we could sell to a customer. But really right away, I would say the business started growing at a pretty significant rate and just kind of kept going. I don't think there was a moment where, wow, that was it just went crazy from there. I think it was just always kind of going crazy. Just slow, you know, just lower and kind of kept going up. I would say we hit some snags. That's more what I would say, than did any big boom moments. What were the biggest snags? I think when we reached a certain level of kind of growth and size to where we had to transition from a really small company that's really scrappy with a lot of young, kind of inexperienced people on the staff and team to the next enterprise level team and processes, that was a tough transition. Probably, you know, it probably hits around year 10 for us, I would say, maybe-ish in that range. And um we're still going through that, I would say. You know, we're we we've grown in that process and and done really well, but that is still finding itself. You know, I think there's a book called No Man's Land. It's about companies that are going through these transitions from kind of a small, scrappy business to a larger enterprise business.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Like you said, I like it, or they're almost the, I want to say professionalization, systematization, you know, where you gotta like have more processes in place that you probably didn't want. At least that's for us. Like, I didn't want processes our first, you know. Now you gotta have processes. There's too many of us that you can't you know, we can't do it.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Org charts, like just things that you take for granted when you're small enough that you can kind of understand all the parts of your business pretty easily, get more complicated, professionals coming in that are experienced, but maybe don't fully understand what's magical about what your place is and why it's important for them to adapt to your culture versus you adapt to their experiences. Very important, I think, because businesses that are doing well probably have a strong identity. That is a big part of what makes the what makes it work.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:48

And you do need people with experience to come in and help, but they need people that understand what that is and lean into that versus fight up against that. So unlocking all that is, I think, difficult. Um, and we're still learning again, we're still dealing with that.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah, I mean, you're only 17 years old or what around there. So it's understandable. Are there some things you've learned about how to maintain identity and culture as you go through this transition?

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Oh yeah, I think a ton. Yeah. We've we've, I mean, four years ago we sold a majority stake in the business, but still remain as a family the largest shareholder. So it's still, you know, very important business. So we're still very involved. And you know, we've had a lot of internal transitions with management and just a lot of lessons learned along the way. And more changes are are still happening all the time, and we're get trying to get the right mix, but it's it's also going well. It's hard to complain. We're I think we're doing a great job with it, but it's not perfect. It's bumpy, it's been difficult and challenging. What was it like when you first play all that, by the way? The product always there, the customer always there. That part's always worked. So kind of what I said earlier, I knew that would work. You know, it's just how good can we do running a company wrapping around that was always the it's nice to know you have a sellable product that people want.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Oh, and a great brand. Great brand and great product. That's there. Yeah, bro. You you at some point, I don't know when this was, you started part you formed partnerships with some really, really big retailers. I think Target might have been one of them. Did that worry you at all when you're going through that that these huge institutions might swallow you up somehow or derail you?

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Or was that just an awesome opportunity and there was nothing but like you're always thinking really carefully about your channel strategy and where you show up and how you show up and how often you show up is a big part of a brand like ours. So absolutely, you have to be very thoughtful about that. It's very easy to get caught up in just more, and that's not always the right thing. And getting this is another challenge of a larger company, getting the internal team all on the same page on how you think about that and how far to push here and there, and being able to lean on and trust your teams to be able to manage that and thought thoughtfully with the overall strategy of the company because it's one customer, one channel, you have all these channels. That's part of the challenge of the becoming a grown-up business.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Getting good at that kind of thing. All right. We'll we'll pivot a little bit towards giving, since this is allegedly what this podcast is about, the philanthropy side of it. And I wonder, so you didn't go, I don't think you went the standard college route, let alone the standard sort of MBA and internship at a Fortune 500 company route to get to where you are, right? Yeah. So what is your attitude now, I guess, given your kind of unique background there toward higher education, maybe towards giving in higher education more generally? How how how has your background shaped sort of how you think about that part of the philanthropic landscape?

SPEAKER_03 15:08

That is so interesting. I don't give that, I mean, well, I give education a lot of thought, but the higher education question is a good one that I haven't probably given as much thought as you might expect. My experience is I was in college and then I dropped out to go on tour because that was the opportunity that was in front of me. I was a songwriter, I wanted to be a songwriter, I wanted to be a musician for a career. I thought I could do it. I had opportunities that were bigger than most people would get. And I thought I should do this full time and see where it goes. Even though they were small opportunities, they were still bigger than most people would get because it's a very hard world to break into. And I, yeah, so I started, I really went full into that because to be honest, I was having trouble showing up to my classes at a certain point. I just my focus wasn't there. And I realized I just this is my focus is all over here. I need to go put my energy into this. This is now currently fruitless for me. So I did that, and then when I realized that wasn't what I wanted to do with my life, my my options became go back to school, take over my dad's business, or start a company with my wife. Those were kind of the things I were I was contemplating. And it became really obvious that starting the business was the thing to do. So for me, it wasn't this reject higher education because I think it's a waste of time route. It was just the opportunities in my life were different than, and they took me a different direction. Obviously, higher education is going to be if you don't want to be a lawyer, you're gonna have to go put in those hours, right? Or if you're gonna be a doctor, you gotta put in those hours. So some professions, I think it the decision gets made for you. Other professions, I'm not so sure. Obviously, I think higher education is not just about professional development, but also about personal development and preparing people. And I think this this statistics around philosophy degrees that they lead to a lot um what's the word? They lead to more success statistically than people without philosophy degrees. You know, whatever major. And I do think learning is great and being well educated is a superpower. The the key to me is getting a real actually getting well educated. Maybe that's more the challenge. But if you're getting a really high-level good education, it's hard for me to say that's not gonna be a value to you in your life. I I wish I had one right now. In some ways, there are gaps that I think I if I would have had an awesome higher education experience, I would be glad to not have. But my life didn't allow me to have those experiences. That's the reality. The way my I don't think I made any portious decisions. I think I made the right decisions in the moments. And as a result, there are things that I'm missing that I wish I were, I, I, I wasn't. But it's it's also with five kids under 10, probably not gonna go get those experiences. So, you know, I don't know. Maybe it's just different for different people.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

But education is a big part. It is a um, I guess it's an interesting conversation because education is a big part of what you give to, and you look at the if you look at your boards, like fee is about economic education. Actin is a lot about kind of brings economics and faith together, philosophy as well. And then you got a the Chesterton Academy uh of Orlando, which is a Catholic classical school, I believe.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

So helped start Highlands Latin School in Orlando, which is a classical K through eight program.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah, yeah. Is it is you do you think um you're led to some of these para-educational and then K through 12 and K through eight sort of efforts? Yeah, because you're education doesn't just happen, I guess, at in college or university, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Well it's so funny is I got this is a good conversation for me because there's a lot I have, I have I could think about it. You're but you make a good point. It's kind of funny that I'm a college dropout that gives to education a lot. And then when you ask me about education, I kind of have, well, maybe, maybe not. Not education, obviously the K through level. Obviously, everyone's gonna go through K through 12, and education is gonna be a big part of their formation. And so I think it's extremely important to form young people to be ready. That way, when they get to college, they can maybe take a path like I took. And they and and higher education isn't a necessity because maybe they've already gotten a lot of that already. So maybe that's part of how I think about it. I also just think the your K, the, the K through eight, you know, the I don't know, five through 18 years are just gonna be so formational for people that it's important that that's done well. Uh I think it's often not done well. So that's a part of my passion. Also, when you talk about the actin and fee, that's a that's a whole other thing because when I was starting Rifle, I was working, you know, 70, the class, you know, the sort of stereotypical 70, 80 hours, basically doing nothing but eating 7, 11 hot dogs and working, trying to survive basically a startup with just my wife. Crazy, crazy, really. And I was young enough to do it. And what I would do when I got home, when I would make dinner or wash dishes or whatever, I would listen to economics lectures because somehow that was just interesting to me in that time of my life, just to think about maybe it's because I was starting a business and it was just like it's not that it was relevant to how to run a business. Maybe you'd think I should be listening to business lectures, but I I wasn't because probably because I needed a break from that. But I was still kind of interested in economics as a discipline or as like as as a science or as a way of thinking about reality, just because it had some tangential connection to stuff I was doing. But it was different too, that I could kind of give my brain something to work through that wasn't working. And that was a really important part of my life because it really I learned so much. It got me thinking about the West and the tradition of you know, natural law. I got, you know, it connected it connected into so many things that I found to be very engaging, questions about the existence of God. You know, I found Thomas's five ways through reading economics. As weird as that sounds, just the people I wasn't getting exposed to, like sort of the, you know, just getting my mind working was getting me thinking about metaphysical questions too, whether I thought objective morality exists. You know, these were questions that that I was really wrestling with. And I I eventually became Catholic. And a part of that was from reading a lot of economics, you know, sort of this part of the project. So my involvement with Acton is actually extremely like he's exactly what you'd expect, given all of that.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

You know, and P is So it's really not the kind of stuff that they're doing is so central to your identity and what shaped you.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

That's what I mean. Yeah. It's like the basically the stuff that they're interested in doing work on is the exact stuff that you it's like that was me. And I found that after the fact, and it was funny because when I when I met the one of the founders of Acton, we had we were having lunch, and he was like, okay, so like this is we're an obvious fit. You know, yeah, kind of an obvious fit. So I just, you know. Um, but I do think the education stuff connects into that in a way. Because it's sort of my I'm a big believer that having an active life of the mind, an active intellectual life that takes really difficult questions seriously sharpens you. It um, you know, it prepares you for all sorts of things that would be difficult to anticipate.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Is what is that what attracts you to classical in particular, that it um puts the biggest questions front and center? I think so. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. What do you how what's your feeling at this point about exciting, a little more interesting?

SPEAKER_03 23:04

It's a little more fun. Like my kid is learning the history of medicine. You know, he's like reading, he's a 10-year-old, he's reading the history of medicine, and I'm like, he was telling me all these cool things. I'm like, yeah, this is way more interesting than other stuff.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Expertise, Galen, stuff like I imagine.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

Oh, yeah. They're like, I mean, he's got well, he's got all sorts of stuff. I didn't even heard of before, you know. It's like it's pretty awesome. You know, it's a fifth grader, but he's like, God, he's really into this history of medicine book. I just think it's like a fun way to learn a lot of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Hi, I'm Chris Kidmeyer, CEO of Amphil. I'm excited to share that this season of Givers, Doers, and Thinkers Podcast is sponsored by Amphil. Whether your nonprofit needs help raising major gifts, building your donor pipeline, or crafting a winning fundraising message, Amphil has the expertise to help your organization thrive. We work with mission-driven organizations across the country to help them raise more money and advance their mission. Learn more at amphil.com. That's am e h I L dot com.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

How bullish are you on the future of classical uh education, either in the private or even the private school sphere, the parochial sphere, the even public sphere?

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Yeah, I'm bullish on it in the sense that it's it's kind of it's historical, so it's tried and true. So it's kind of do you have an expectation that it kind of works and will keep working? Abraham Lincoln had a classical education. Martin Luther King Jr. had a classical education. I mean, these are not, it's not that weird. It's pretty normal. It's kind of normative in a lot of ways. Some have better than others. I think I could be mistaken, but I think a lot of private schools in England, they never really didn't have one. You know, it's kind of even their public schools might be more classical than we'd expect compared to what we do in America. So yeah, I'm I'm I'm bullish in the sense that I think all of these prep schools went to iPads, for instance. And I I kind of think the science says that that's was a mistake. And I think a lot of them will probably pivot back to books again, would be my guess, and get out of the digital environment. And so I'm I'm bullish in in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Um It's interesting that your business is in the physical, it's a physical world business. It's tangible. You touch stuff. And um that must also sort of inform how you look at the importance of the physical. It might. Yeah, it very much might.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Um it's a good way to think about. I hadn't thought about it that way. I think you're I think you're right. I think we're we have uh affinity for tangible, tangible goods.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

And beauty too, right? I guess probably that's another point of connection, it strikes me, because classical education, you're always talking about the transcendental, you know, beauty being one of them. And you guys are in the you're in the beauty business, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:42

Yeah, we think about that in the business, that true good and beautiful is actually really important to our brand identity. So the transcendentals are a part of our brand identity. Um and uh yeah, so we do think about that.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

How many businesses come uh uh how many business owners, Nathan, say, yeah, the transcendentals, the true good and the beautiful are part of our brand identity? I think it's a pretty short list. Transcendental capitalism. We're gonna have to write a Wall Street Journal article.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

I think we got a book title. At least at least it's not bad. Yeah, exactly. We got this.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

No, I I think there's something there. Yeah, you're right. There's a lot of there's a there's a shared ethos there. Yeah. But I do think, I do want to say, you asked me, am I bullish? I am. I also see cracks, I see problems, I see landmines more within the classical world than I do. Yeah, talk about that. I think it's too political a lot. I think it it there's an enclavist temptation that's dangerous. I, you know, so I think there are real, it's probably this is probably like a bigger conversation for a different podcast, but I think I I I'm I have a growing internal sentiment that I was actually just chatting with someone about today, that uh a lot of schools are trying to do too much instead of just be really good schools at preparing kids intellectually for the things that they're they're being hired to do, they're trying to become cultural creation centers. And I think that's a mistake a little bit, maybe I think that if you try to do too many things, you might not do the things you're really supposed to do well. And that's something I've I've learned in my own experiences of running a company. So I do think that it it people in these spaces get a little blind to their own, how do you want to say it, their own open flanks. And so I'm I've I've been thinking about that a lot lately. So I'm very bullish, but I also there's also there it requires there requires a level of self-reflection and uh criticism, internal criticism, I think that would be beneficial.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Well, you mentioned too, uh so that needs me to ask you this. You mentioned they're maybe trying to do too many things, and that's something you've learned as a business owner and entrepreneur, is like that could be a bad thing. Is that something you find yourself maybe asking either explicitly or implicitly when you're deciding to invest philanthropically in some organization? Like, hey, are they on point or are they maybe doing too many things, a little too dissipated in their energy?

SPEAKER_03 28:22

That's a good question. I don't know if I've asked that question directly, and maybe I will now, because I think it's uh she's a good one. Yeah, I think that's very interesting. But I'm not sure. I mean, I will say if you were to look at kind of the way we give, it is probably pretty dialed into a particular set of I think there is a pretty dialed criteria. So I think so I think in in a way you're we are doing that. But I don't know if I thought about asking it in that way, and I and I'm gonna think about that more because I I think it's good. But yeah, I do think we kind of have a criteria. I I kind of wish I had our mission statement with me right now. I don't. But yeah, we have sort of things that fit what we're trying to do with our giving and things that we really believe in, but they don't fit what we're trying to do with our giving. And we try to stick with that. We don't just give to everything we believe in, right? We kind of have a we kind of have a methodology that we try to stick to.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

I think this is the biggest problem. Uh maybe not the biggest problem. One big problem for people who get to a point where your giving is pretty substantial. Care about a lot of different things, the world needs a lot of different things. How do you um how do you sort of did you guys dial that back to say, okay, these are the handful of areas that we're going to focus on and not these other things?

SPEAKER_03 29:43

How did we get to how I think it was our creating our mission statement, I think was what you're asking. I think that helped dial it in. It wasn't so much, okay, let's really low, it was more what are our real core principles here that we want this foundation to address and think about? And what are, you know, so maybe there's an organization that checks all our boxes. It's it's the kind of mission we believe in. They're doing great work, they're using their resources well, et cetera, et cetera. We still oftentimes will say no because we know there is a sea of potential donors that get exactly what they're trying to do and they can go to those people next. We can say no and they can go to the next guy and get a yes because it's an easy sell. Whereas there are other missions I think that are we can, I can tell you right now, yeah, we're gonna be like one of a handful of families that are gonna get what you're trying to do. But I do think it's super important. I prioritize those people. It's it's not because they're not doing their job well or they don't know how to fund raise well. I think it's it's great actually when an organization does a great job raising support and finding partners, but certain missions are just tougher for a particular donor to say yes to in my experience for whatever reason. Yeah. Yeah, not that it's not that we're trying to do these like weird things. It's just that some donors they gravitate. I just don't know why it's this way, but donors tend to gravitate towards certain types of things, and I can tell you what they are and what they aren't. And Anna and I try to be very thoughtful about are we really needed here? And some things we really are. So, for instance, the these schools, these classical schools in Orlando, that's a little different because my kids go to the K through eight school, so it's a little bit more like also our you know, our family is involved, it's a local project. But it's still it's still an example a little bit because if we wouldn't have planted a very, very, very large flag, it would have been tough, I think, for these schools to get the momentum they needed, just because it was it'd be tough for any sort of donor to look at it and go, Yeah, I'm gonna make a massive investment in these things that don't exist yet. And there's this handful of families that want to do it. Like it'd just be hard. Whereas you're you have you have the vision, you say, no, this is gonna work if someone steps up, we'll just do it. And so you give in an inordinate a way than you would to other causes because you know you can be the first mover.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Things like that. It sounds like there's two things here then. There's one is sort of the I the things that we really care about, checks all the boxes and and other philanthropic investors are less likely to get in on.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

And the second thing is you need to be a leader or you need to kind of be the leader and then bring other people to the table. And if you don't, um it's either it either can't happen or it can't scale where it needs to. At what point in your business career did you start, did you guys start to think seriously about giving philanthropy? Yeah, that's a great question. I was raised in a family that took giving really seriously. So for me, it's in my DNA. And my parents, for all their flaws, were very diligent in this way. They were generous people, they cared about generosity. They, you know, they were sometimes to to extend that we're got a little bit even crazy, you know, letting people live in our house that they probably shouldn't have been, especially when I was young. I think that kind of died out when I got a little older. There's some weird stories. But they were very generous people, they really were. They took it very seriously, they saw it as a major responsibility they had. They weren't super wealthy, but they were my dad was a pretty successful insurance guy, you know, upper middle class family. So they had some, that not really in any big meaningful way, but they they had some to give and they were very diligent. So that I was raised with that, and then I would say at uh I don't know how many years into rifle, but there was a certain kind of moment where it tipped where it went from 7, 11 hot dogs to okay, we actually have we're making a nice living and we have extra. And that was kind of it wasn't, it was super modest, but it was it was more than we'd ever had or imagined because we were, you know, we were pretty poor. And um that is actually the moment I connected with the Acton Institute, funny enough. So my my story there is one of my good friends uh was on a podcast talking about giving and talking about poverty, and it was it was Michael Miller, and he was talking about Poverty Inc. wasn't out yet, but he was talking about that sort of stuff. And I was like, ah, this guy's thinking about the stuff I'm thinking about, you know, like because I was thinking about that exact stuff. Like, how do you give wealth? How do you think about generosity? How do you pick what you're supporting? How do you do this? This seems really hard. And so I literally called the acting institute and asked to talk to him because I was like, this guy might have some thoughts. And uh he called me back on my cell and we talked for two hours. And that's actually how I met those guys. That's actually kind of how that relationship started. And um, yeah, there's a I don't know the year. I could probably we would probably find the exact year, but that was a fun story.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

And really it did help me think through a lot of these things. So that was sort of how you started thinking more self-consciously about how you're going to give. But Michael Miller, hold on, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

I think I was actually always pretty conscious of it, but it was the first time there was enough resources that it was meaningful enough that I had to like get a little bit more really on my mind because it was like, man, this is more money than I feel like I can just be a little bit more. How do you want? I don't say casual, but it it would require a little bit more in thought to do well. A bit more of a sense of duty now and obligation around it. We were always, you know, we always gave, you know, even when we had no money, we always we always gave like a certain amount of whatever we earned away as a discipline that I was raised with. So even when I had a little like five dollar allowance when I was a kid, you know, we would, you know, whether it was a tithe or whatever, we would do something with it. That was like how I was raised. Our kids do the same thing. But at a certain point, it's like, okay, this is a little bit more serious now. It's not nothing crazy, but enough that requires some thought.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Probably also required some thought in that you were still running a business. And even to this day, of course, you're still, as you said, the principal shareholders in a business. And this is another thing I think a lot of business owners have to think about is how I want to give, but I also have to make sure my giving isn't uh I got relationships with customers and vendors to to protect and think about. I gotta make sure I don't cross any lines. Like how how how much of that does sort of thinking occupies your uh sorry, I don't know that question. You know, just that you don't you can't take off customers or vendors with your giving, you know. There's a well uh what do you mean? Why would we why would our giving take off a customer? You wouldn't want it to, is my point, right? So you have to be careful about it.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

I uh okay. I I'm okay. I I I guess I haven't thought about that too much.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Um, obviously a lot of business owners would give to a donor advice fund and maybe. Oh, okay. I see what you mean.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Yeah, no, well, we actually, yeah, we okay, now I volue a little bit more. I think DAFs are great. I like DAFs. I don't I guess I never I don't think of it the way you're framing the question, but I will say that I do uh we use a DAF. And I like a DAF because I think there's a lot of reasons. First off, a DAF is I mean, a foundation does the same thing. It allows you to be much more responsive timing-wise with your giving, much more organized. So I think for a low-level, lower level donor, a DAF is like a no-brainer. You should, if you're not using a DAF, you're like not doing it right. You should be using a DAF unless you once you get to a point where you have your own foundation, you can argue you don't need the DAF. But if you're not, if you don't have your own foundation, you better be using a DAF because if not, you're in December 20, you know, you're trying to like figure out everything on December 1st. The DAF eliminates that issue. So that's a big value of a DAF. And I do think that privacy is super important for giving because you just don't want that to be even a consideration, is the way I would describe what you're saying. You wouldn't even want to you're you give to the things the DAF gives you privacy. That's enough.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

That's how I would how I would think about that. And I think privacy is important. Do you uh prioritize entrepreneur types, you think, as leaders of the nonprofits that you tend to gravitate toward because of your own background? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Maybe I should, but I don't think I have yeah, no, I don't think so. I uh I don't know if I yeah, I don't I don't believe so.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Have you ever found yourself overrating how much like make uh business background applies and transitions over to how how uh nonprofits are run? Or is it the opposite that you do you find yourself being frustrated sometimes about nonprofits not being run enough like businesses?

SPEAKER_03 38:42

No, I think businesses are run really poorly too.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

That's like the best answer I've ever heard to that question. What are you trying to find? Last question, Nathan, before I let you go. What do you and no, it's probably in your mission statement, which I know you don't have in front of you, but just off the top of your head, big question. What are you trying to accomplish with your giving? Like what is it matter more of a matter of witness to who you are and what you believe in, or is there some like end, social end you're trying to?

SPEAKER_03 39:11

You know, it would depend on what you're giving to. So the you know, the corporal works of mercy are super important, you know. So you need to give, I think, you know, we have a thing, we give to, you know, causes for like food and homelessness in our local community, right? Because from our point of view, like it's important to have like a local presence, you know, medicine. You know, there's like a great local kind of clinic that does free medicine for underprivileged families, locally, these sorts of things. We try any of the good stuff in town like that that's in our community, we try to make sure we're supporters, even if not lead donors, because again, these are things a lot of people can give to. Understand, we still make sure we give to them to some extent and support them. So that's like a one type of mission. We also would do that sort of work in areas of massive problems, right? So if you have a massive famine somewhere or a crisis, humanitarian crisis somewhere in the world, I do think it's important that you step in that gap. If you know about it and you understand it and you know how to give to it well and you know it's actually produced that way, and you know you're actually saving lives. So if you can do that, you should be stepping into that gap, in my opinion. That's one type of giving. The education giving is totally different, right? That's about forming, I would say, young people and forming leaders and helping people think well. And hopefully that's you know, that's a that's a different, different type of mission, but it's super, it's probably just as important in a lot of ways. So I think it just depends on what we're giving to.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

You're giving a both and answer here, yeah, right. That there's different reasons to give. There's not one reason. Yeah, and then others are ideas, you know.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

Sometimes we give to support ideas because, you know, for instance, we give to the Acton Institute, because I actually do think um a lot of what Acton does work on is unique to Acton. And if they weren't doing it, I don't know if anyone else would be in the gap doing it. It's kind of like it needs to exist and they need to be able to do their work. Because if they don't, I kind of think you could lose an entire tradition that's actually important to keep alive for a lot of reasons. Um, you know, even I would argue this even with someone who's like not a fan of some of our work, I would say, yeah, but if you're your if your side is not getting pushed by us, you're gonna lose. Trust me. You're blind to a lot of stuff. You have we want this flame alive. So it's important intellectually to support, I think, organizations like that.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Um, so you know, it's ideas, it's formation, it's poverty, it's you know, it just depends, I would say, on what the new couple works in mercy, as you put it, which is a good phrase to use since we're recording this on Monday of Holy Week. So that's what we should be thinking about right now. Still Lent. Nathan Bond, thank you so much for your time today and for doing this. Awesome. I had a lot of fun. That was great. Check out Rifle Paper Company. If for some reason you haven't already checked out Rifle Paper Company, make sure you do. And um support banana. Even if you're a man.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

Actually, maybe even more if you're a man, because great presents are available for the ladies.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Exactly. You should know about this very much. Your wife does, your your girlfriend. All right, thanks so much, Nathan. Appreciate it. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode and what is going to be the last season of the Givers, Doers, and Thinkers Podcast. Nevertheless, I invite you to like and follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. And as always, if you want to learn more, check out mphil.com. Thanks.