Warfare of Art & Law Podcast
Warfare of Art and Law Podcast sparks conversation about the intriguing – and sometimes infuriating – stories that arise in the worlds of art and law with artist and attorney Stephanie Drawdy.
Warfare of Art & Law Podcast
Artist & Attorney Stefania Salles Bruins on "How to Work Your Lawyer-Trained Brain to Strengthen Your Cranial Nerve 2" Part II - A 2ND Saturday Conversation
Cover photograph credit: Jessica Minor
Link to PowerPoint presentation referenced in episode is available here.
Show Notes:
1:20 intro and background
2:40 Slide 4 - Overview of Part I: 6 & ½ tips & tricks: 1 – perspective & point of view; 2 – Light; 2-1/2 – shadow; 3 – value / contrast; 4 – temperature; 5 – depth and illusion of 3-D; 6 – line
5:00 Slide 5: Point 7 - Brushstrokes
6:35 thickness of paint
7:00 blending with dry brush
8:00 Slide 6: Point 8 - Layering
9:40 ‘fat over lean’ rule
11:15 scumble – layer of opaque white
11:30 glaze – transparent layer over an underpainting
12:40 Slide 7: Point 9 - Paint as a Language
15:50 Slide 8: Point 10 - The Figure
19:45 Slide 9: Point 11 – The Palette
32:40 glazing
33:50 Slide 10: Point 12 – Studio Practice
42:50 figurative group show with artist from Hip Bone Art Studio
43:45 process of applying to shows
45:00 narrative/figurative and surrealist approach to still life work
46:05 artist statements
48:45 sharing WIP and final works
51:20 connection to the cranial optic nerve – thinking with our eyes when painting
1:00:00 painting from imagination with focus on ‘technique in service of art’
1:02:10 how to deal with writers’ block and painters’ block
Please share your comments and/or questions at stephanie@warfareofartandlaw.com
Music by Toulme.
To hear more episodes, please visit Warfare of Art and Law podcast's website.
To leave questions or comments about this or other episodes of the podcast and/or for information about joining the 2ND Saturday discussion on art, culture and justice, please message me at stephanie@warfareofartandlaw.com.
Thanks so much for listening!
© Stephanie Drawdy [2025]
I'm a very ferocious painter but beginner like. That's part of why I paint on aluminum because I can attack it and it won't rip or break. You know, it's it'll. It'll sustain the strength of this arm.
Speaker 2:Welcome to warfare of art and law, the podcast that focuses on how justice does or doesn't play out when art and law overlap. Hi everyone, it's Stephanie, and that was artist and attorney Stefania Salas-Bruins from her presentation entitled how to Work your Lawyer-Trained Brain to Strengthen your Cranial Nerve Too. Stefania began part one of that presentation in 2024, which is available at episode 138. And what follows is part two Stefania Salas-Bruins. Welcome to Workfare of Art and Law on Second Saturday. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me and Second Saturday, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. So this is part two of an overview that you began last year. So do you want to introduce your presentation and maybe give a little background on part one, and then we'll dive in?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is part two of what I've titled how to Work your Lawyer-Trained Brain to Strengthen your Cranial Nerve 2, which is your eye. Basically, I'll give a little intro, like you said, about my own background and then I'll go into some additional tips and tricks. So I was a lawyer for 12 years. Well, I still am a lawyer, but I was practicing at a law firm and then in-house for about 12, 13 years, and then I quit my job to go get an MFA at the New York Academy of Art, and that was a two-year program which I finished in 2023. And then I moved from New York to Portland, oregon, where I've set up shop and I've been freelance lawyering and painting I guess also freelance painting. I will go through first, like Stephanie mentioned, a brief overview of the tips and tricks from last year, and then I'll move on to the new ones, and I do have a little disclaimer. Then I'll move on to the new ones and I do have a little disclaimer.
Speaker 1:You know this is all about figurative oil painting specifically in sort of the style I have. So there's obviously endless ways to paint and this is just one perspective. This is a brief overview of last year's tips and tricks, which were six and a half. So the half is because shadow is a part of light, which is actually point number two, point number one being perspective and point of view. This is something that's it sounds so obvious when you think about it that everything is determined by a point of view, but it's not until you really stop to think about it that you notice its impact. You could see a paint tube. You could look at it straight on, you could look down at it, you could look through it to something else. There's just so many ways to look at something and that sounds more obvious than it is. And the same thing goes for light. You know, everything we see. We can only really see because of light, which also sounds very obvious, but it's not that obvious. When you start painting and thinking like that, you realize how you can play with that and influence what the viewer can see and not. You can hide things in the shadow, so to speak, and the shadow is nothing but the absence of light.
Speaker 1:Point three was value, which is actually the most important point, which is contrast, and that's really how we observe most things is through contrast. So if you squint, all you end up seeing is just light and dark, and that's how we get most of our information, and so it's very important to an image to have the correct contrast for what you're trying to convey. Number four was temperature, which is basically dealing with color, but in terms of relative temperature to each other, varying between cool and warm, and if you want to hear more about that, you should check out the previous presentation. 0.5 was about depth and the illusion of three dimensionality in a 2D format, and point six was about line, which is related to depth, because we use lines to focus our attention and indicate depth, which is a nice transition into our first point for today's talk, which is brushstroke. Again, this one seems pretty obvious.
Speaker 1:You're working with brushstrokes when you're painting, but what is maybe not so obvious is how you use the brushstroke to convey what your image is or what your message is. What your image is or what your message is, so not only are you sort of putting the paint in the right places, but the direction of the stroke itself can indicate something. So if you're using, for example, an arm going back into space or a banana and you're kind of rounding your brushstrokes around that surface, by making those brushstrokes rounded and following that depth you more easily convey that effect than if you were doing like straight lines for the arm, where the arm seems maybe straight, or straight lines for the banana, where it seems to be straight, so kind of flowing. It's almost as if with your brush you're like caressing the object that you're portraying. You're sort of going around it and following its contours, as if the panel you're working on was three-dimensional, so you're almost sculpting even though it's two-dimensional. And with that comes the next point, which is thickness, and so you can also play with the thickness of the paint to convey that three-dimensionality. Same goes for blending.
Speaker 1:Actually, when I first started painting before going to school for it, it turns out I never blended. I didn't know you're supposed to blend or could blend. I had no idea. So I would put the paint and I'll smush it around. So I guess I was blending. But when I'm talking about blending here, I'm talking about like using a different brush, a dry brush, and sort of just lightly swooshing the paint, or you know, like it's different to mixing the paint. There are people who use makeup brushes for the blending, and I guess it would be like applying makeup, except I can't make an analogy because I don't use those brushes, so that's not going to be helpful. But a dry brush that sort of swoops over the paint that you've already applied and takes away any harshness in lines and that allows you to kind of decide where the detail remains and detail goes away.
Speaker 3:Stefania, after blending, do you ever go back over the section you blended with more paint? Can you describe if there's layers to blending or whether it's kind of like a one silver? Do you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah well, gina, thank you so much for your question, because ta-da. So yeah, definitely I go over the blended parts, absolutely. What you're saying, um is, uh, what I do, um, I. So once, um, once things have blended, then you've lost your sharpness right and then, but you might have lost too much of it. So again, this is just the way I paint.
Speaker 1:You know, some people do have a whole underpainting that's set and then they go on like that, but in the way that I've sort of adopted once, by blending and drawing it again, which I guess can get frustrating or it might sound tedious, but really it's not, because you're just investigating that one thing all over again, so it would be blended and then re-added on until sort of like, I'm happy with the effect and I guess that's why I love oil paint is because you are, you can layer this way, and people do achieve similar things with acrylic. It is possible, it's just not something I do. And so the translucency of the oil paint well, not all oil paints, but the transparent ones really allows for that layering and allows for like, if you have a blended section and you go over it once it's dry. Of course it needs to dry first, so you're just going to keep blending. You can keep applying layers upon layers forever, and a general rule is fat over lean, and that means is the amount of oil, or and paint, because the paint itself has oil, but you want the first layer to be the least oily, so you're almost working with just the paint and as you go on, you add oil.
Speaker 1:And I guess I should also clarify I don't use any medium, I only use linseed oil, which is something I was going to discuss later, but I guess it's relevant to this portion. If you do use medium, your layers will dry a lot faster, but also it acts differently and it's far stickier and it's just not something I can talk about because I just did not like that approach. So, yeah, linseed oil, and in layering, one thing that I find helpful to think about is going from general to specific, which actually is a funny parallel to how laws are written, right from general to specific, and how you would analyze a legal issue. So what I mean by that in an image is you're going from like the biggest overall structure and then becoming detailed. It's almost like the image is blurry, like you kind of see it, and then certain aspects of it become more distinct and precise and detailed and others do not.
Speaker 1:One thing I guess to realize with layering is so I guess, in terms of technical terms, a scumble is when you add a layer of opaque white like this over here, which is just a tiny segment of a painting and you can't tell what it is, but it shows a scumble. You see the transparency of the white and overlay to whatever object is underneath, whereas a glaze is a transparent layer over, over and under painting or whatever was underneath it. So, like this apple down here has glazes of red as compared to the scumble.
Speaker 2:For those who do look at the presentation later, we're on slide eight. Is it for layering? Or we're on point eight, layering, and you're referring to the scumble as the top left of the slide and then the apple on the lower left?
Speaker 1:oh, yes, yes, thank you. Yeah, and one thing I guess to consider is um, once you do add opaqueness, I guess the only way of going back in terms of you having covered the underlying surface in my case aluminum, but it could be anything else the only way to go back would be to scrape it off. So with the transparent layers, you know you can keep going irreversibly. But once that white gets in, the only reversing is getting rid of it or it will remain opaque. So, going on to the next point, number nine, painting as language. I think this is a a nice analogy. I mean it's I didn't come up with this, obviously the you know, painting as language is how you're told to develop your artistic voice and and view your brushstroke application as a language that you're creating. But I actually thought it would be fun to break it down even further and analyze sort of the whole painting process through language, and I would view paint tubes as the alphabet and mixing colors as vocabulary. Personally, and mixing colors as vocabulary Personally, I prefer to keep my palette limited, which we'll talk about later, and create my own colors as needed. So I would view your color choices, your palette choices, as vocabulary, and the brush strokes are kind of like sentences and that makes the layers of paint like paragraphs, such that the image is a story and you're painting your story should fit within the context of art history in some, in some way. Whatever you're pulling from or inspired by or relating to, and the page in that book which is where your image lies, should be contemporary. It should be now. In my opinion, it should be somehow reflective of your current life or the life around you, or society, or whatever is happening right now relative to another point in time. Happening right now relative to another point in time. Yeah, I just wanted to share this analogy. It's one that's been shared by many artists that have taught me and I feel like it's a really nice way to look at images, especially if you're producing narrative work. Now, in this case, the image in the slide is of boots. It's just a pretty simple painting of a still life of a pair of boots, specifically Doc Martens, but I chose this because I feel like it illustrates this point. The layers of paint on this image of boots have sort of, you know, been layered on almost like the boots were worn. So, for those who aren't seeing this, the boots are very worn, the leather is like scrunched up and roughed up and the boots were red, but they are sort of all sorts of shades of red at the moment because they've been through a lot and so the paint is conveying that history and that timeframe. And many artists in the past have paint boots and shoes. There are even philosophy of art articles written on, for example, van Gogh's pair of shoes. So, yeah, shoes are an interesting, I think, analogy for this point.
Speaker 1:Point number 10, or tips and tricks number 10, relates to the figure. So within figurative art, of course, the figure is central. A starting point for the figure is anatomy, so I think that's an important one to study Again, focusing on point of view, so you can look at a figure from many different angles. You could even crop the figure and focus on, like an elbow or a finger. It's still important to keep anatomy and perspective in mind whatever you're doing with the figure. One thing that I think goes understated and is really important is how features are a small part of the face we are sort of designed through evolution to really focus on features and eyes are so important and we care about them so much, but from a pure image, like perspective, it's a very small part of the face, and so I think it is important to, especially when drawing portraits, to allow the eyes and the features to sort of appear almost on their own as you're working through the surfaces of the face, and instead of focusing on drawing the features or painting the features specifically, as that could bring them out of proportion. I forget who taught me this, but it was kind of an eye-opener for me, even though it sounds obvious. Next and I think I touched on this in the last one, but it is really important there are really no concavities, like we are sort of just formed out of shapes connecting, so things might seem like there's a divot, but it's just two connecting forms that are actually rounded.
Speaker 1:And I think I should have titled this slide Debunking Myths, because they're kind of all trying to get us away from things that we think we see. And the other one is flesh tones. I've never really understood flesh tones out of a tube. That makes no sense to me, just looking at flesh and anything else. It's all just colors and value and contrast and temperature shifts that we're seeing. It really doesn't matter that it's skin or not and the thing that's interesting about flesh, which is very nice for oil painting is that it is translucent in some areas. You know, skin varies a lot in terms of tone and you can capture all that nuance with, just starting with your prime colors, really, really yeah.
Speaker 1:And I guess the other thing I wanted to talk about is the figure as sort of an academic study, kind of like the ones we're seeing here. These are all academic style drawings, but I think that for something this is my personal opinion for something to become sort of art on its own, it needs more than technique. You know, it needs to be elevated by sort of conceptual understanding of ideas or thoughts or feelings, whatever you're conveying, and imagination. And when you combine sort of those elements with technique, then I think you know we reach a piece of art that's elevated from a study. So I think actually this is quoting somebody I just don't remember who who said that the technique is in service of the art and not art in itself, and I thought that was a nice piece of advice, a nice, nice piece of advice.
Speaker 1:The next point is the palette, and I I'm never um too keen on sharing the pod, just not because I don't want to share it, it's just I don't know why it would be interesting. But it turns out people are interested in the palette and so I um have also, at the end, actually listed the paints I use specifically, but I just wanted to talk about it at first, a little more abstractly. So this is point 11. I think that it behooves every artist to just go through a painful process of trial and error because you don't know what's going to click with you or the message you have, until you try. And it's overwhelming how many tubed paints there are out there and how many different types of yellows, blues and reds there are. So I would say, just start somewhere. And to me, I've always liked working from prime colors because it really allows for a better control of the mixtures. If you start mixing paints that are very specific, that are sort of pre-mixed prime colors in the tube, it's hard to control where they're going because you don't know exactly what's in there. So the purer the pigment, in my opinion, the easier it is to figure out where the mixture is going.
Speaker 1:For those who are looking at this image, one of them is just sort of my clean palette when I just refreshed it and a sort of halfway used palette, and I use the same palette for all my paintings, you know, unless there's something else going on, like I'm doing a monochromatic painting or something, but otherwise I use this full palette and I just focus on different tones depending on what I need. In terms of palette layout, everyone has their own system. People separate, warms and cools. Some people just have a different palette for every mixture. Some people pre-mix. In my case, I like to separate my transparents from my opaques four. Once that opaqueness gets in there, it's. You know, you've transformed something. That layer is now opaque and so I want to control that element, especially at the beginning. So I keep my white and my opaque paints as far away from my transparent, even though when I mix it goes all over the place place.
Speaker 1:But that's a different point and I guess, in terms of the palette also, it's very good to have palette hygiene to clean your palette when things start getting too muddy, which they do. I mean, if you mix all these colors together, you get gray, pretty much some of gray, which is also why it makes no sense to buy gray paint. I've never understood that either. So, cleaning your palette whenever you need to and also your brushes, cleaning your brushes every time you finish working. Don't go to sleep without washing your brushes. Would be, I think, my most important advice Um any questions.
Speaker 2:When you're cleaning your palette, the palette hygiene. When does that kick in? Or does it vary, Like some days it stays pretty under control and other days it has to be wiped off fairly often?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for me it's latter. It really depends on the painting and how I'm mixing and what's going on. I also work on multiple paintings at once within a sitting. So even within like three or five hours I will probably work on two or three paintings. I do try to consciously clean my palette before working on a different painting, for sure, but sometimes even within the same painting. It really depends on what I've been doing and if things have become a little gray on my palette. I guess the point if I had to describe the point at which it happens, it's probably when I have lost control of the mixtures. So if I can no longer accurately get a little piece of ultramarine blue without it being contaminated and mix it with titanium white without it being contaminated that's, with titanium white without it being contaminated that's when I need to. You know, as an example of two paints, if I, if I can't get pure color and mix, then I need to clean it.
Speaker 2:I was curious too, because you do work on multiple paintings at once. There may be some overlap with the colors that you use, but maybe not, and the palette that we're seeing here is, it's like, maybe medium size.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I guess I'm just wondering, like has it ever been a temptation to have like a separate handheld palette for each painting so that you don't have to like, if you're rotating, that you don't have to like start your palette over again each time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I have thought of having separate parts. I do have three of these palettes. Having separate parts, I do have three of these palettes, so I do rotate, in the sense of, like, when I clean it, I'm literally just um, scooping from this, scooping the clean paint from this one and putting it on the other one. So it is a fast process. It only takes about, I would say, less than five minutes, so it's not really a hurdle, even between paintings, since I'm just scooping from here and putting it on the other one and then wiping this one down, and also because I keep it in the fridge so that the paint doesn't dry. I really only have space for one.
Speaker 1:So pragmatic situation, but I also don't feel like I need more space. It is a medium to small palette. Like some people use a very large palette, I like having it in my hand, and if it got much larger or heavier that would be a problem. I like being able to go up to the painting and sort of mix the color immediately right before applying it, as I need to, and so, yeah, yeah, I just have to compromise, you know, the amount of space on the surface of the palette for the functionality that I need it to have.
Speaker 3:Steph, can I ask you a question about, um, like the proportions of paint that you start out with, like, is every color the same dot or size or amount? Do you find yourself gravitating more to one particular color that you use more often when you're first, you know, laying out your palette?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's a good question, especially given these images. So unfortunately, the true answer is a little disappointing. The size of the blobs of paint are relative to the tubes from which they come and how they, delicately or undelicately, they squeeze out. If you know my practice, you know I don't always cap my tubes and so, um, you know, I just deal with it. You know I need to be able to squeeze paint out fast for some reason. So I can't deal with the cap, don't know why, it's just is, and so sometimes I get bigger chunks of paint. So so that's the reality. But if I were to ideally set up my palette, I guess I would have a lot of white and a lot of Naples yellow, and then the prime colors would also be in bigger chunks than the rest. And I'll, like I said, I have a list of the specific paints and there are four, no three sort of extras that are, that are that I use. Much less of Hope that helps.
Speaker 3:It does. Thank you and. I do the same thing, like I'll be pouring out, and then one will just like blob all over the others. I'm like, no, I just did the plan. But it's funny because I'll then be like, oh, should I be? This is the painting trying to tell me something. Like it wants more of this color. Like I try to like listen to the paint. It's so weird.
Speaker 1:No, I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you shared that because I fully agree. I also try to listen to the paint and it. You know, I think that there's something to that. Obviously, you know, I don't want to fully embrace my sloppiness in terms of my tubes. I am very careful with my paint and I don't waste it.
Speaker 1:Like I said, I put whatever's remaining onto the next palette. But there is something about just working with what you've got and like embracing what comes out of the tube on your palette in that way. I love that. I also think that the palette is a very personal thing to every artist and I guess that's why I'm usually hesitant to share it, because I'm sort of like, well, this is just the way I do it, Like why would anyone ever want to do this, you know, in this specific way. But it is fun to sort of hear about how different people approach it and I came to this decision of Tube specifically and the setup just through a lot of trial and error and also sometimes picking up from another artist something that they really care about and seeing like, oh, let me try that, and then seeing if it sticks or not and sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 2:How was that in the Academy? Did they have that kind of open attitude about how you lay out your palette, or was it suggested that you do it a certain way?
Speaker 1:It really varied, teacher to teacher, instructor to instructor it it. You know, some, some professors really had like a specific like you should do it this way, you know, and they would try to get you to do that. And others were sort of like, well, that is just how you want to set it up and let's just work with that. So it was very person to person. There wasn't like a specific overarching instruction on that, although the one thing that there was but it was also not that strict was for every class, as is normal for any art instruction, there's a required list of paints or with some suggested, and so I did try to, wherever I could afford to do that, buy all the paints that were asked for so that I could at least try them out. And actually that's how you end up with this bucket of paints that you don't use because you tried it and you're like, well, that wasn't for me, but it's, I do think it's worth trying out in any event, because you never know if it's going to click.
Speaker 2:For the transparent versus the opaque. I'm kind of looking at the palette and I know you have a list at the end, but in general, is your use of transparent 50-50 with opaque, or how does that kind of the percentage? Can you put a percentage on it? Or just when you're approaching a painting, do you find that you're using equal amounts?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it all, because the white sort of contaminates everything it and it kind of has to, because that's what's going to bounce off the reflect light off the painting and have a visual impact. The painting and have a visual impact, I would say most of it ends up being opaque, but not because it's only opaque paints. I guess it's a tricky question because all the transparence get mixed with white and become opaque. So yeah, get mixed with white and become opaque. So yeah, I think I use only transplants with no opaqueness only, while sort of glazing through layers, which I actually don't do as a full layer but like on specific areas. So I guess if I had to answer the question, I'd say most of it is opaque at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:Just for those who maybe aren't familiar with glazing of certain areas, could we hover on that for a moment, about, like when you're doing the glazing and then adding the opaque?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do try to keep it separate, but I feel like I would be twisting reality if I said I kept it that separate.
Speaker 1:You know, I think there are moments when I do get a fresh palette, completely fresh, and only put my Transparent on, so there's no opaque on the palette at all. You know, if I really need to do glazing of that type, because just the way I work work, if there is that white available or the full palette, I will automatically mix and work on a different area of the painting. That's only because I work on the painting throughout and not in specific areas. I think it's more usual to work on specific areas and have your paints for that area set up. But yes, there are times when I only have Transparency on my palette, but it's just very it's like one out of ten times. So point 12, which is the last one of the six for this part of the tips and tricks, is Studio Practice. One of the six for this part of the tips and tricks is studio practice. There's probably a lot to be said on this topic, but I have a few points to touch on.
Speaker 1:The first one, which ties in nicely to the prior point on the palette, is sort of research versus trial and error or even better the balance between the two Sort of figuring out what other people have done, doing some research, but also just doing the thing, like going through it so that you can figure out what works I think is a slow and painful process but it's worth it because, well, I guess it depends on your learning style, but for me, if I go through it then I kind of get the muscle memory for it, whereas if I'm just observing or reading about it it won't go in. In the same way for painting and the same goes for process. I think it's really important to try different processes. Try a monochromatic underpainting, try drawing things first, try all sorts of things and see what really feels right and gets the results you'd like. So for me that ended up being just going straight on with paint on the panel, and also choosing your support is a big deal. I think that and again this is something someone advised me or advised the class was to really care about your support objects, and that's definitely a style and an approach. But if you are painting on canvas or panel or wood, you know, choose or prepare your panel as you'd want to, and for me that ended up being aluminum. But the process is still ongoing and I've changed my procedure for preparing the panel several times and I'm getting to a point where now I enjoy the preparation process and and kind of um, want it to be a certain way. So I will sand the aluminum and then I'll spray it with um Rust-Oleum so that the paint better adheres to it, whereas at first I was going straight on, which is not a good idea, um, but it, you know it took a while. It took, you know, getting advice but also attempting things, and I think the same goes for your medium. You know whether you're using Gamsol or not and things like that, and your tools, your brushes or palettes or whatever palette knives, whatever you're using, your brushes or palettes or whatever palette knives, whatever you're using.
Speaker 1:Also, a big point of your studio practice is whether you're working in your own private space or in a group space, and I've done both. I've worked in an open group space, closed group space where there's walls, and currently working on my own, and there are advantages and disadvantages to both, of course. I think when you're in a group setting it's really nice to just be inspired by the work around you and get sort of casual critiques, you know, get feedback, ask for advice really quickly. When you're on your own, you really have to go out of your way to get advice and brainstorm, something which is a lot harder, but you do have sort of the sounds and the messes of your own doing as opposed to shared. But I do think it's something to think about.
Speaker 1:I think some people you know there's cost obviously associated with both. Some people might prefer to rent a space somewhere. I think there's. You know I sometimes think about that. Should I have a space that's in a shared location so that I get that community, or do I work just on my own? I think important things to think about. And the same goes for self-reliance on your own, feedback to your work and getting critiques.
Speaker 1:Critiques are obviously very valuable because you're getting an audience to respond to your work and you can kind of listen to how it's read, how it's interpreted, which ideally is somewhat aligned with how you intended it to be received, but it's not always the case but also learning to have that critique internalized in the sense of like being able to step away from your work, maybe for a minute or maybe for a day or however long, and look at it and see, well, how is this going to be received or how can I improve it, or is it doing what I want it to do? And I think that also comes from consistency of practice. But also, yeah, I think that there's this perception and I used to have this too where it's like you have to be mentally ready to go to the studio or to go to your painting or your practice, whatever your art is, um, but really it's important to treat it as just a part of your week or your day, however regular your practice is, even if it's monthly. But having just going, even if you're not ready to paint something or you don't know what you're going to paint, or you are stuck in something and just sitting there, or whether it's a desk or a whole space and just considering just being with your art or your art thoughts, even if you're not being as productive as you'd want to be, I think that's really important, treating it like a job in a way, in in the sense that you show up regardless and you do your best regardless of how you're feeling, as opposed to attaching sort of this romantic view that it's always going to feel wonderful. I think that's an important thing to keep in mind, as well as and this is something I've talked about before like the ever-changing setup.
Speaker 1:I've put some pictures like the ever-changing setup. I've put some pictures up here of different studios. I've had two of the three former studios I've had in my current studio, which is much larger than anything I've ever had, and I always thought once I had enough space I would stop rearranging. But I'm still constantly rearranging. I either want different paintings around me, or I want, like, just to look at different things, or I want to pin up some inspiration, or I don't know. It just never really settles. It's always moving and in that context it is very helpful. This sounds silly, but it's very helpful to have everything on wheels, whether it's your easel or your cart or anything really in your studio. If it's on wheels your life will be easier because you'll just be rolling it around as you please.
Speaker 1:And I guess the last point I have on here is more of a kind of a discussion point or like an open point. I think up to now I've been focused. You know, this presentation and this talk has focused on things that I feel confident sharing in terms of things that have worked for me and that have that I've figured out over the I guess probably four years that I've been consistently painting in some form and the. The next step is obviously once you have all these paintings, how do you sell them, if you want to sell them or share them with the world, whether it's online or, preferably, in person, I mean, if we're talking large figurative paintings, they really should be seen in person and not online.
Speaker 1:I think everyone would agree on that. So, yeah, the last point on this talk is how do you find your buyers, your collectors, and how and where do you show your art? It can be group shows in artist-run galleries, it can be group shows or solo shows in sort of blue-chip galleries. It really depends on the market for your work and what you want, and that requires, I think, a lot of research, and for me, it's ongoing, and so I just wanted to share that as a final thought. Thank you for listening to my tips and tricks group show that you were in.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you want to share a little bit about that, since that's one of the discussion points that we were ending on about shows. Other than that, any shows you're currently in or that you're applying for, what your thoughts are when you do apply.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I do have a piece in a group show at a local artist-run gallery here in Portland. It's a figurative show with all the artists showing Also do figure drawing at a place called HipBone Studios, which does live figure drawing sessions throughout the week. So it's a really nice show of people with shared interests and shared training experience in the sense of looking at the figure and creating artwork based on it. I do apply to opportunities pretty often and I try to find spaces that fit sort of the work I make but also that show artists that I admire. I think that's one way of going about it is seeking the spaces that show the work that you would like to be shown next to and you know it's an ambitious position, but I feel like that's a good place to start, alongside more approachable spaces where you can sort of set up your own group show.
Speaker 2:Where do you usually find the shows that you apply for?
Speaker 1:A lot of them are from calls for art through galleries. I follow on Instagram and I do think I might be on one or two mailing lists that aggregate calls for art, but I will owe you what those are because I don't remember them. But I think calls for art on Instagram are a good way to find opportunities.
Speaker 2:What is your process when you're making the choice about which type of work you're going to focus on? Figurative landscape, still life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I feel like the short answer to a lot of these questions will sound really silly. So I just paint what I want, basically. But I guess, if I think about it, I've broken down my practice maybe into two branches the more narrative, figurative work, which is now focusing on pulling more from imagination, which is now focusing on pulling more from imagination, and separately to that sort of still life work, which has sometimes morphed into landscapes based on still lives, for example, having broccoli be tree and having carrots be people and lemons be sunshines, things like that. So more of like a surrealism approach to still lives. And I guess one thing I did want to talk about relating to studio practice which thank you for your question, stephanie.
Speaker 1:This just brought it back because I'd forgotten is artist statements. Gotten, is artist statements, which can be a challenging aspect of practice but it's very important and also ties into applying to opportunities where you mostly require an artist statement. But the process of writing about your work sort of clarifies to yourself that what you're painting about and what your subject matter is. So back to your question on how do I decide what to paint. It's been driven by sort of intuitive like desire to paint something, but then, upon reflecting on it over the years, I fine tuned it towards trying to stick with an overarching topic, whether it be introspective feelings or experiences, or sort of observational starting from observation, whether it's an object or a person, and that has come through writing about what I paint and thinking about what I paint instead of just painting it, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and do you find that the creating of this artist statement is an ongoing process for you? Like, once you think it's great and you've sent it out into the world, then you're still thinking about it and updating it.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, and I think it should be. I think an artist statement should be updated, you know, if not every year, which is probably not often enough, um, maybe twice a year, three times a year, or whenever something shifts within you or your work. I agree that it's never finished, Like truly. A painting is, you know, never finished according to Da Vinci, and I think he's right. But, you know, a body of work certainly never is finished. There could always be another painting that you make, and I think the same goes for the statement. They're both evolving in parallel.
Speaker 2:When do you decide that your work not necessarily is finished but ready to be launched into the public eye? Because you actually post a lot with your works in progress. So what is that for you? Like sharing your works in progress and then sharing what you've announced as a final work, Like how do you make that call and what are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, I enjoy sharing works in progress just because it keeps me, um, producing. I guess you know it feels like, okay, well, I've gotten this far, I gotta keep going. You know it feels like, okay, well, I've gotten this far, I've got to keep going. You know, it's sort of like a personal milestone in terms of sharing ongoing work, in terms of work being done, and again, I feel like these answers all sound silly, but it's when those paintings stop speaking to me. So if the conversation is, uh, concluded with the painting, then it's done. Um, so that could be.
Speaker 1:That sounds very abstract, but that could be that I can no longer think of something to improve it. Obviously, it could be improved if I started all over again and fixed all the things that I don't agree with in the painting. But in terms of that piece being done, if, if, I cannot do something else to it or I've lost interest in it. You know that sounds negative, but if there's just this disconnect, it's either because it's done or it needs to sit in a corner. I think I've probably spoken about this before where I just put my paintings in the corner that I've felt stuck with and later observed them, and it could be that I was wrong and they're not stuck, they're done. But more often than not there just needs to be like a few brushstrokes here and there and then they're done. So it's a delicate, interesting topic when a painting is done, and I think it boils down to the communication between myself and the painting.
Speaker 2:Any other thoughts or questions? Comments for Stefania.
Speaker 3:Stefania, could you explain the heading, like the title of this presentation, again, the nerve part like just described to me, like what that means and I'm sorry if you addressed that already in the first session, um, and I missed it, but I'm really interested in like the, the scientific aspect of like looking and seeing in your process, um, so if you could explain that a little bit more in detail I would appreciate it.
Speaker 1:it coming from a brain that was first lawyer trained and then arts trained, and my first starting point was going from sort of analytical thinking to visual thinking. Well, actually that wasn't the first point. That's where I ended up. But at first I was thinking that law school teaches you to think and art school teaches you to see. And then, as I pondered it more, I realized that it wasn't just thinking and seeing, like they're both a combination of those factors, and one of them is just analytical, the other one's visual.
Speaker 1:But you're still using your brain, through your optic nerve, to to think with paint, as it were. Um. So that's why I connected those two, um and I. I titled it this way because I wanted the focus to be on the cranial nerve, like not forgetting that our eyes are literally a nerve implanted directly into the brain, and it's that conversation is pretty direct, like our eyes are more connected to our brain than, say, our stomach, you know, which isn't a nerve, obviously, but it's like a very short connection toward the brain. So I think we're thinking with our eyes when, when we paint.
Speaker 3:Basically, you don't know who it was, but she and I'm pulling this from um a sir ken robinson ted talk, where it's the woman who choreographed cats. Um, where he references that he had to move to think and I'm like, oh, we have to see to think, like as you're giving this presentation and, firstly, like I loved all the visual little things in your presentation too, like this Q&A using the primary colors, like you used that on the first slide too, and just how like your presentation itself was like a visual, getting your viewer to think it was really really cool. Um, so thank you for explaining that. That has helped me like think I think better or like understand, maybe like how I process things. Um, so awesome presentation. I love this picture. It's loop worthy. Like replace the Mona Lisa, like this gold.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you like it. I did want to sort of finish with the quote which I've always kind of thought about, which is writing about music is like dancing about architecture, which has unclear origins. But I kind of, in my mind, I substitute the writing about music with writing about art, and the reason I bring it up is because we're talking about art and we're even talking about writing about art, and it feels strange, because art should be viewed or be made, or be made, but talking about it almost seems so removed and so, you know, contradictory to what it's supposed to be doing. But, on the other hand, I think that it's really important to not forget that painting is a visual language back to one of those earlier points and it is trying to communicate concepts, just like language does and just like music does. And, you know, I think it's something we shouldn't lose sight of the combination of concepts and language and images and paint one more thought just on that part, because your like analogies with like paint as alphabet.
Speaker 3:Cool, that was so powerful. I've never heard that before. But, like, you're right, you have to like learn how to almost like read art. Um, just like how you have to like learn the alphabet in order to like speak and write. Like. It's this very elementary kind of concept, but I don't often hear art being taught that way or even spoken about in that way. Um, really like I got emotional for whatever reason, when you started talking about that. I was like, oh gosh, this is like clicking and it makes sense, like wow, I just yeah it was really cool.
Speaker 1:I'm glad it made sense.
Speaker 4:I quite like this. For the first sort of two thirds, three quarters of this, I was driving, so I was just listening and I really liked it, because I know it's strange because you were describing things, but I just got really in the moment and it was weird actually because it was probably more distracting listening to you than if I'd have actually just put the screen up and been watching it, because you know, when I just listen to things, I just you know I'm in the zone and it's that thing where you go. How did I drive here? You suddenly arrive somewhere and you're going. What happened for the last 40 minutes? But I did that during the lockdown.
Speaker 4:I've been lots of walks and again I was listening to these series of podcasts all about art. It was people. I think they called it like something like the case for or the argument for they did all different concepts and I just loved it because I was walking in the dark like miles and miles through all the woods and through all the lanes and it's just really strange just listening people describing a visual medium but I quite like it and thinking about one of the best a couple of years ago, bbc radio 4. Here they did the hundred best things about britain. You know like objects and artifacts, all sorts of things. You know art. You know some art things, some historical things, all sorts of things, and the funny thing about that is a really successful radio series. There was a radio series, there's a radio series about objects, so you couldn't see what they were talking about at all and it still really worked. So it's yeah, it's interesting how you, you know, one sense can sort of accommodate for another.
Speaker 1:Um, but there you go yeah, and I wonder what happens if someone were to paint what they heard described.
Speaker 4:You know like it's another step removed and gets translated in a whole different way I think it might work because it's just, you know, this whole idea of like synesthesia and how we all start off synesthetic and then over time our brains learn to compartmentalize and it how much that happens depends on the individual and things. But yeah, I find, because I like listening. It's I mean, don't get me wrong I like looking at things. That's why I like art, but also I just like listening to things because it just zones me out.
Speaker 4:You know there's something to be nice where and especially when you're walking late at night through forests and woods and things like that, it's really dark and you're just sort of relying on maybe a little bit of moonlight or a tiny head torch and you just sort of, you know you can't see three feet in any direction, so you just feel really encapsulated and you're just living inside your own head, especially when you've got headphones on. And it's just strange. I just find that really works for me. And it's not until afterwards, I think I've just like literally spent the last three hours listening to lectures and podcasts about people describing various art and art techniques and I've got no idea how it actually was in practice, whether they said oh, if you look at the excellent way that they've done this and done that, but in your head it sort of won't work you must have a very strong imagination to capture all that.
Speaker 4:I suppose. So yeah, imagine that's the worst thing having a good imagination when you're walking through woods miles from anywhere on your own at night. They always say that I've got friends who do cave diving and they say the key thing with cave diving is you mustn't have any form of imagination. If you've got any form of imagination, you just won't go down there Because at best you'll be catastrophizing about things that can go wrong, but at worst you'll be going. What if this has been sealed off for like millions of years and there's still a dinosaur down here?
Speaker 2:I was uh going to ask you earlier and this brings me back to a question uh, from a point you raised stuff about, uh, sometimes you work from um observation and sometimes from imagination. And how does does that work? And do you find it more difficult to paint from imagination? Say, if you're doing a figure and correct me if I'm wrong I thought that sometimes you don't use a reference and you do your figurative work or other work from imagination.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say last six months, or all the paintings I've started in the last six months. I've not used references. I've just decided to go back to my original process, which is just imagination, like that's how I started. And then, as I, wherever I struggled like that's how I got into figure drawing and anatomy was like I was struggling and I was like, okay, I need to learn some stuff because I can't do what I want to do. It's kind of back to that technique and service of your art.
Speaker 1:Um, and then during school specifically, I was very reliant on references because I was so keen on getting the technique down and getting realism. And then it's not that I've achieved that and now I'm beyond that. It's nothing like that. It's more like I think I've got enough to keep me going and I don't necessarily want to achieve that. I want to achieve what's in my brain, as opposed to realistic perfectionism, which is a whole different branch of art. And I think the statements like going back to, like thinking about what you're making kind of helped realize like what is that I want and what is it that I'm working toward. So, yes, I've done away with references.
Speaker 2:I'll still look at little things when I need to, but I will no longer try and copy what I see, and we had a question from Nabundo and unless she wants to jump on, I can read it for her or she can add to it. She'd like to know how you deal with writer's block and my first thought was when you're like you're talking about writing about your work, like that right there, I know can be a struggle, but then also painter's block, so maybe you could speak to both.
Speaker 1:I've yet to feel painter's block, but it's more like I start too many things because I'm like oh, I gotta make this and I gotta make this and I feel like you just have to start somewhere. Um, writer's block, I feel like and maybe it's why I don't feel painter's block and I feel like with words it's kind of similar, like if you just throw words at a paper without feeling constrained and then you can rearrange them as you please like, because they might be in the wrong order, um, not forming a sentence, for example but I feel like if you start just somewhere, you know. So if you have to write about your statement, maybe just write a few words that come to mind when you think about your paintings or when you look at them and, yeah, just starting somewhere, anywhere and then fixing it.
Speaker 1:Spend all your time fixing things. That's my painting strategy.
Speaker 2:Wonderful, thank you. Well, thank you so much, and then, fixing it, spend all panel or the canvas. It's really inspiring to hear you talk about it, so thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks, and I think it's all about even when writing. It's all about caring about what you're doing and if you don't feel like you care at first, like you feel that, block the blank page, just love like, learn to love it somehow.
Speaker 2:And when you figure out how to love it, you'll be drawn to it. There will be links in the show notes to learn more. If you're intrigued by this podcast, it would be much appreciated if you could leave a rating or review and tag Warfare of Art and Law podcast. Until next time, this is Stephanie Drotty bringing you Warfare of Art and Law. Thank you so much for listening and remember injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.