Warfare of Art & Law Podcast
Warfare of Art and Law Podcast sparks conversation about the intriguing – and sometimes infuriating – stories that arise in the worlds of art and law with artist and attorney Stephanie Drawdy.
Warfare of Art & Law Podcast
Steven Gambardella on Stoicism: Its Benefits and Paradoxes
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Please visit Steven Gambardella's site here to learn more.
Show Notes:
1:15 background in the arts
4:00 Dutch philosopher Spinoza’s parallels with Hellenistic philosophies
5:20 Gambardella’s Become As You Are
9:00 individual agency and collective action
11:00 crisis of agency
11:20 emergence of stoicism
14:00 four-fold root of virtue
20:10 four facets of autonomy, perspective, objectivity and control and their relation to the four virtues of wisdom, moderation, justice and courage/fearlessness
21:25 Steven's blog
21:45 Stoic view of justice relates to ignorance
26:00 moralism
27:00 Seneca, tutor and advisor to Roman emperor Nero
32:00 applying ancient Stoic ideas in current day
35:35 Stoicism and Philosophy Reading Group
38:30 summary of Stoicism: Virtue is the only good; and you have full control over the domain of your soul/your “inner citadel”
40:20 Stoicism at a crossroads
43:45 his hope to contribute to a revolution of the soul that encourages a view of the world that is more holistic and spiritual
45:40 Question from Susanne van der Meer about the paradox in Stoicism about the responsibility of agency versus a Stoic view of incarceration
55:00 Stoic view of fear and desire
1:00:00 Comments from Emily Gould
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Music by Toulme.
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© Stephanie Drawdy [2026]
Opening And Guest Background
SPEAKER_01The thing I often talk about is philosophy not the knowledge. It's not something that you stick us in, but philosophy in an activity.
SPEAKER_03If you think about in an activity, it could be even. Welcome to Warfare Evening and Second Saturday. Thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_01It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Would you start with giving an overview of your background and what brought you into the focus of philosophy?
Writing Become As You Are
SPEAKER_01My background's kind of straight complicated. I have a uh primary interest in art. And I went to university to study art, and I went to quite a prestigious um art school in London. But at the same time, I wanted to do something with a little bit of an academic focus. In the UK, we don't minor and major when we study at higher ed, but sometimes we have what's called a joint degree. So I did a degree in um art, fine art practice, so working in a studio. I still primarily studied sculpture, um, but also art history. Um, and I was I was very good at art history and a little bit insecure on the studio art side. So um I decided to pursue art history. I I got went on to do master's study at UCL, um, and then I did a PhD um in the history of art. Although I would say that my PhD was very much um was broadly historical, right? So what so what I mean by that, it wasn't focused on aesthetic development or art movements or anything like that. It was developed um around a social context, around activism in the United States and Canada um around the AIDS crisis in the 1980s. Um, and studying that, I came across you know a huge amount of philosophy from you know Marxist philosophers like Lukatch all the way to you know pragmatists like Richard Rorty and people like that. So um it was it was really interesting uh intersection of the study of medicine, activism, like legal issues, um, artistic activity, and yeah, it was it was incredibly interesting. And from there, I just developed an immense um enthusiasm for theory and philosophy, and was really sucked into the vortex of theory, as postmodern theory and things like that, and that that was um really interesting, but not particularly fulfilling. Um, and but but I mean intellectually fulfilling for me. So um I you know I kind of lost uh I lost momentum for a while, and then relatively recently, in the you know, maybe around 2018 or so, I started to read back read philosophy again. And I was reading uh Spinoza, Baruch uh Spinoza, a Dutch philosopher in the Dutch Republic. He was Jewish, um uh son of Jewish immigrants um in the Dutch Republic, and uh he was a rationalist um and also an activist. He was very, you know, he was very liberal for his time um in the Dutch Republic, which in itself was a very uh liberal state um in the historical context. And Spinoza's um philosophy was has a lot of parallels with Stoicism and Hellenistic philosophies. Um it's very much preoccupied with personal virtue, um, and as a result, I became very interested in Hellenistic philosophies, um, and that really led me down the path of trying to figure out how I would want to conceive of philosophy and what it could do for me and what it could do for uh what I believe it could do for collective action. So um that's really the story of my journey from art all the way to uh philosophy. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03And and in there, you've also authored a book, Become as You Are. Can you share a bit about that and what the the seed was for deciding to write it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I so uh Become As You Are was is a is um it was really a pet project. Um you know it's about um just getting down my ideas about what what the world is and what it means to me. Um one thing I've I've always been interested in is free will um and the and how to build a cosmological argument around free will. I I'm quite disturbed and worried about the way that human agency is being conceived of in today's world, whereby people are treated as if they're machines or nodes within a network or or something to that effect. And that that worries me. I you know, I think I I share some kind of concerns with um the uh philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, who was very worried about the the kind of mechanical understanding of of human nature and and the way that that was um almost superimposed on on human nature. And my my ambition was to really say to myself, like why, you know, what is what what where what's what is the universe and what's my place in it? How do I fit into this grand scheme? And and how does that affect how I live my life? Like what you know, how should one live, right? That's the ultimate philosophical question. But to answer that question, you need a theory of the world and your place in it, or the a theory of the cosmos and your place in it. So become as you are was an attempt, at least, to come up with some answers to that, um, and to try to um to try to reach some kind of traction with the intuition that I felt that I am actually a free agent in the world who can change the world for worse or for better.
SPEAKER_03I was reading an article that you had recently written, Stoic Kitsch, I believe. You kind of give a bit about your background and and some of what you've touched on here, and you talk about how stoicism has made you feel lighter and more balanced. And so I wonder the journey of writing Become As You Are and what you were seeking there and and how you describe it now. Like, what was the arc for that?
Stoicism’s Modern Misread
SPEAKER_01You know, Become As You Are was a kind of you know, exercising those ghosts of like postmodern theory and all the baggage that comes with postmodern theory. So, you know, relativism and um certain kinds of strands of pragmatism that um really weren't fulfilling for me. I you know, I wanted to return back to this more ancient idea of philosophy, which was that it was, you know, something that was very practical, something that really uh got to grips with um some of our deepest concerns about collective action and how we can move forward and things like that, and trying to establish a framework by which to find some kind of peace with within yourself. Like I, you know, I think I think that's a very non-trivial part of philosophy that's treated as trivial, you know, in the in the 20th century, maybe since you know, since the since the demise of existentialism, you know, that existentialism, Sartre and uh Heidegger um were very much concerned with being in the world and and understanding yourself as an agent and um almost like being at peace with um your responsibility as a as a human being. And then there was a kind of counter-reaction to that in in post-structuralism and postmodern theory, which um looked at things differently, that you know, completely eviscerated um human agency of its power, and you know, we're we're just an effect of structures and power, human beings are really constituted by these forces that are completely out of our control. And what I wanted to do is just to bring come back to this notion that we we do have power, we have an immense power, and the you know, one of the things I find with Stoicism is a very uh uh fashionable and trendy um uh philosophy at the moment. It's it there's a lot, there's a huge intersection between um stoicism and and self-help and that that kind of stuff, and there's nothing wrong with that. I you know, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with um therapeutic uh like a therapeutic conception of stoicism. But what does trouble me is that it seems to be the to the trendiness of stoicism is is a misapprehension of what stoicism's really about. Um, that it's a very solipsistic uh philosophy that's only really concerned with um consoling oneself with one's lack of power. And I think that's related to the problems that we're in in 2025. You know, I think there's a crisis in general, in certainly in the Western world, a crisis of agency where people feel powerless, people feel that they're at the mercy of forces that are outside of their control, um, and they feel very anxious about that. And Stoicism emerged in a similar context. Um, stoicism emerged around 300 BC, about 20 years or so after the death of um Alexander the Great, and you know, it emerged in this huge cosmopolitan empire, right? Alexander's empire uh was you know this huge this huge empire that that um spread from Western Europe all the way east to India, um, and trade absolutely exploded around that time. Alexander was, I think he was um he died in 323 uh BC. Um, and then after that there was chaos, right? There was no named successor to Alexander. Um, the empire broke up into various uh factions, and there was just continual warfare and chaos. And warfare just isn't doesn't just affect combatants, right? It affects civilians through inflation, through food shortages, famines, and and things like that, um, and a lack of free movement and and so on. Um, and it also affects people, uh, civil society, right? We can see this in Russia, for example, what's going on there with the way that the whole of society is being restructured around the war economy. And this made people incredibly anxious. Um, and stoicism, epicureanism, skepticism, all of these Hellenistic philosophies emerged in that context as a response to that about saying, you know, what what is it to be a human agent? What where is our power? Where does our power lie? What can we possibly do with ourselves? And it seems to me that it's no coincidence that stoicism's become popular again in this very kind of chaotic time, in this time where uh we we have um almost a superabundance of information being directed at us. Um, we're made to feel inadequate by advertising, by fashions, by media. Um and we feel at the you know, because of the overabundance of news and opinion, we also feel that there's all these happenings in the world that that we just can't control and that that we're constantly on the precipice of something disastrous happening. Um so I wanted to sort of look at stoicism in a way that re rescues the more power empowering aspects of stoicism, not just the therapeutic aspects of stoicism, the consoling aspects. I wanted to look at the aspects where we could actually uh we could actually look at, you know, embrace fearlessness and embrace agency and you know be ab be able to think about the world in a completely different way. And that that to me was really appealing, and that that's been my project for a number of years. Long answer, sorry.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. It's it was insightful and uh much appreciated. The fourfold root of virtue, you're kind of talking about different parts of it, and I I as you were speaking, I was thinking it's interesting, like my understanding is that root is essential to understanding and practicing Stoicism, but the branches that are considered modern Stoicism now seem like they're not really rooted in that and and not stressing it. What would you say about that? And would you kind of discuss the fourfold route of virtue a little bit more?
The Fourfold Root Of Virtue
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. So what you know, just to give some context around this, um Hellenistic philosophies were practiced in a way that they used um, you know, like epigrams and and and aphorisms and and things like that, in order to be clearly understandable for people, right? So, so like um in Epicureanism, there's what's called the tetrapharmacos, which is the four the you know, the fourfold cure, and you know, it's a it's a number of aphorisms that people can learn off by off the top of their head and be able to use that whenever they need to use it. It's very kind of empowering. So the fourfold route was really um an idea, you know, the idea there is to try and create a kind of framework that's easily graspable for people, that's that's almost like, you know, the way the way you know the way I laid it out was almost like a PowerPoint presentation, right? What that you use in business, where you kind of make things very clear and simple, and it's a it's like an overlapping uh Venn diagram of these different facets of Stoicism. And um, you know, the reason I use root is because Stoicism is radical in the truest sense of the word, right? Um as we know, you know, radic radical pertains to root, right? And um it's a different way of seeing the world, it's a completely different way of seeing the world. And I I often say that Stoics see the true, you know, people who are truly Stoics see the world in the way that an artist sees the world completely differently. Um, if you think of Van Gogh and Kandinsky and artists like that, they they had this kind of radical vision, and and that's something that I think stoics have. Um, and it's a way of seeing the world uh where values are turned upside down. So Stoicism sees everything as being indifferent except uh moral good and moral evil, and moral good and moral evil only happen in the mind. I think kind of relates to uh Hamlet, right? Where there's nothing good in the world, only thinking makes it so. I think that's a quote from Hamlet. Um, but it's the idea that nothing has intrinsic value, right, in the whole cosmos. So uh the contents of a latrine and the contents of a bank vault have uh complete equivalence in the eyes of the cosmos. And our it's only us who put who give value to things. And for Stoicism, virtue is the sole good, um, and there's no such thing as evil, evil is simply the absence of good, right? And it you know, it comes back to this idea of um uh that goes back to Socrates, which is the um evil evils are just simply the opposite of virtues, right? So, so you know, you have like cut you know, you have courage and cowardice and you know all these kinds of binaries. Evil is is is is not something that's out there in the world, it has no essence. Um and what we really should do as as human beings is orientate ourselves towards the good, is to is to go like is to embrace virtue, and to embrace virtue is to see the world as it is, and the world as it is in stoicism is this world that's completely um valueless outside of the mind. Like, you know, it's it's it everything is indifferent, and once we see the world in that way, we see how beautiful it is. Um, we see that the world is interlinked and everything plays its part within the cosmic whole. We see a wholeness and a oneness, um, and that's that's really the stoic vision. I think that kind of you know that's something I try and get across in the in the fourfold route of stoic virtue is is this idea of of looking at this um looking at this kind of beautiful um uh integrated oneness that is the cosmos through these three through these four facets and those autonomy, perspective, objectivity, um, and control. Um and they relate to the four cardinal virtues um that that go back to Plato, uh, which is wisdom, moderation, justice, and and courage or fearlessness. And it's just these just these interlinkages, these if that's a word, um, these connections uh of all these things, I I just layered and layered it so that people can have an easy way into grasping this this vision because to me that's that's what it's all about. It's about seeing the world differently, apprehending it differently, um, in order to see it truly. Does that make sense? I it's quite a complex thing to introduce.
SPEAKER_03It is, and I appreciate the way you've laid it out. Thank you. On your Substack, you write about a lot of these points that you're talking about, and you go into different issues of the day and touch on things like justice, which you just mentioned. So I wonder if you might elaborate on that. And I believe you'd had a post a while back uh and it related to incarceration and justice, and just if you would expand a bit on that, uh, your perspective on how justice and stoicism uh interact.
Justice, Ignorance, And Clemency
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so again, you know, I you know, I may I kind of spoke about evil um a little bit there, um, and the the stoic conception of evil is is important here, but um essentially all vices or evils uh plural, uh, because there's no essence that is evil, no thing that is evil, um these evils in a human context emerge from uh ignorance, right? From lack of wisdom or misunderstanding. So it's it's really the uh the stoic idea of justice is is to understand that all wrongdoing actually stems from ignorance or from people being mistaken about what is good and what is bad in reality. Um so the idea is that um ultimately, if you think about it, and here we you know, this is where stoicism becomes radical, is the idea that everyone's ultimately innocent, because nobody can help being ignorant about something, right? If you don't know something, there's there's there's really ultimately nothing you can do about it. Obviously, you could try to learn about something, but if you think of if you take the logic as far as it'll go, you can't actually help not knowing something. So um Seneca writes a lot about justice in his letters to Lucilius, he writes about justice in um his two kind of essay texts, uh, De Clementia Um and Um The Era on Anger and on Clemency. Um, and he said, you know, he argues for the idea that justice should be uh corrective in the sense that it teaches criminals the difference between right and wrong and it restores uh wisdom to the criminals so that they understand the wrongdoing that they've done. Um, but it's not about retribution, it's it's not about you know an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Um that's you know, that's a very radical part of stoicism, right? It's um it's the idea that that criminals are ultimately innocent. Uh obviously justice needs to be served. Um but it's a it's a in to my mind it's a it's a it's the right way of looking at things. I I think that moralism, um which is you know, which is could often concerned with retribution and concerned with defeating evil and destroying evil, um, is in itself um a kind of you know a kind of evil in a in in intention, right? It's the opposite of a virtue. The idea that there's uh an ongoing moralism, right, moralism would say there's good and there's evil in the world, right? And it's the good people must fight evil, they must defeat evil. But the problem with that is is that you're basically saying that there's an ongoing cosmic war between good and evil, right? And justice and peace are very much related, and you know, there's no there's no justice without peace, and there's no peace without justice, to my mind. I mean, people may disagree with me. Um, but how can that be if there's this ongoing conflict that's taking place at a cosmic level, right? If there's such a thing as evil that's out there in the world uh somewhere, and evil that people succumb to or tempts people, you know, with this idea of a devil on someone's shoulder, how could there ever be peace? There's never, there's never peace, right? If if that if that's happening. So so you know, moralism falls into that trap. And the problem with moralism is we take our own particular idea of good and we try to impose that particular idea of good as a universal good, and we impose it on people. Um, and that that is a very uh uh, you know, that's that becomes a problem, right? That becomes a problem for our collective sanity and for the collective peace. So I think if you follow the logic, if you you know, if you understand what what the Stoics are talking about, um you kind of come to this idea that yes, you know, justice is probably best served as as correctional or uh you know um but not not necessarily restorative.
SPEAKER_03And you mentioned Seneca. Uh I wonder if you might just give a bit of background on his input into Stoicism, his background as well.
Seneca’s Life And Legacy
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um Seneca is roughly the same same age as uh Jesus of Nazareth. He was born at the start of the first century. Um he he was uh he was born into um a kind of semi-nobility, he was born into the um equestrian class of of the Roman aristocracy, um, so the kind of second tier of aristocracy below the um senatorial class um in Spain. He rose to power, he was an intellectual, he was predominantly, he was actually you know more of a writer, he was a playwright, uh, he wrote several many tragedies. Um he specialized in particularly gory tragedies, um, you know, Medea and things like that. And uh, but he rose in politics, um, he was he was uh in the court of several emperors, um, Claudius, uh he was actually exiled under Gaius, otherwise, you know, uh Emperor Gaius, otherwise known as Caligula, um, exiled Seneca, and uh he came back when Nero rose to power. Um, and he served under Nero. And Nero, there's a lot of um misconceptions about Nero. Nero was a fantastic emperor in the beginning of his reign, like he was very, very popular, and a lot of people ascribe that popularity to Seneca, right? Seneca was a kind of advisor to Nero. He was actually his tutor as he was a young, young man. Um, and um he had a lot of success uh working with Nero. He became incredibly wealthy. Seneca um is estimated to have been probably richer than somebody like Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates is today, like an incredibly rich person. So he amassed a huge huge amount of wealth, um, but then it all went downhill. Um in in around 60 uh AD, uh Seneca was but you know, between 60 and 67 or so AD, Seneca was accused of being part of a plot um by a senator called Piso. Um and that that was really his downfall. Um Nero actually ordered Seneca to commit suicide um for the good of the the Roman state, and he duly did so in a hot bath. Um and yeah, just that's basically Seneca's biography, but his writings are um he his writings um are he you know he wrote tragedies, but he also wrote a lot of philosophy. A lot of his philosophy um was in his letters to Lucilius, who is some kind of friend that he. Had we don't actually know that much about Lucilius, but we but the letters were preserved, and they're letters where Seneca gives Lucilius advice, right? Life advice, and it's all written from a stoic perspective. And he also wrote these kind of essay-like books. Um, and these books uh are really interesting historical curiosities because they can be related to the kind of times that Seneca wrote them. So Seneca's believed to have written uh on clemency while he was in exile, right? So he was he was writing this book that would be public kind of published in Rome talking about why clemency is such a wonderful thing. And you know, he wrote it while he was being punished. So, you know, read read what you like into that. Um, so he's yeah, he's a really interesting character. Um, I'm I'm not entirely convinced of how sincere he was. Um, he was um uh he he was very you know he's a very sophisticated guy and um probably quite a cunning person, and I think he wrote about Stoicism very beautifully, but how um how sincere he was about Stoicism is open to question, right?
SPEAKER_03Also, I'd read references to how he was not very um even-minded towards individuals like his slaves, and I think you've written about this that you shouldn't be focusing on the people like modern-day Stoicism is different. I guess I would love to have you bring it forward what it meant to that era where Seneca was, and how it has transformed to today, where you have found it so life-changing.
Ideas Over Idols
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you know, going to the point of should we put people on pedestals? Um, you know, absolutely not. Like everyone is complicated, everyone is a product of their time, um, and that's certainly the case for Seneca. And you know, for me, the most important thing is ideas, and that I think that holds true in Stoicism as well, is like you, you know, you shouldn't um hero worship these people as saints. Um, you should actually just look at the ideas and and do do as you may. I think I think there's a human compulsion to putting people on pedestals, but also giving things, giving ideas a kind of framework that may be problematic, right? So I'll give you know, I'll give an example. Uh think about patriotism, right? Like, you know, I'm I'm British, uh the British democracy has a very long tradition, back to parliamentary democracy. Um, so you know, people are very patriotic, right? But to me, what really, you know, what really matters is is the ideas about democracy, right? Democracy is a really important idea, free speech, uh, civil liberties, they're they're incredibly important ideas. And it, you know, it's kind of worrying when people confuse um the embodiment of those ideas with the ideas themselves. And I think that's the trap that people fall into when they, you know, there's a there's a famous stoic Marcus Aurelius, right? He was the Emperor of Rome um in the second century, and uh people talk about him as if he was a saint, you know, this guy who's never, you know, could never do wrong, and you know, he he was this incredibly wise guy. You know, when we read the histories about Marcus, you know, if we read Tacitus and you know, people like that, um he he lost his rag a lot. Like he, you know, he wasn't he wasn't a fantastic ruler. If he didn't write his meditations, he would have been seen as a relatively mediocre emperor, right? Like he didn't achieve you know huge things, he didn't, you know, he didn't have any major reforms um uh in Rome enacted. Like he he did some really good stuff, but but you know, comparably um he he wasn't that you know an amazing emperor. Um you know, I could name several emperors who probably did um a much better job. Um but you know, he's because he wrote The Meditations, which is a very beautiful book, you know, it's it's fantastically written, Marcus would have had the best education of his time, right? He was taught by um some of the some of the most fantastic uh sophists and philosophers who would have taught him rhetoric and and literature. So he wrote beautifully, and you know, his book is very beautiful, um, but you know, let let's look at let's celebrate the ideas. Um we you know we don't we don't need to put people on a pedestal. Uh that's a dangerous game, right? Uh as we've seen in various parts of the world over the last hundred years or so.
SPEAKER_03The community that you're creating uh around Stoicism, would you speak to that and what your seed was for deciding to have this kind of community?
Building A Global Stoic Community
Stoicism In One Breath
SPEAKER_01I just wanted to connect with fellow enthusiasts to uh learn about philosophy, not necessarily just stoicism, like we've we've looked at other philosophies as well. Um, Epicureanism, we you know, we looked at Lucretius, uh, you know, the famous Epicurean poet. Um and it, you know, I I just felt that it would be it would be really nice to be able to sit with people and and talk about this stuff, and it's really wonderful, people from all over the world. Like, you know, we we have people in Australia, India, um we have people in uh Brazil, in the United States, um, the UK, obviously, and uh it's just a great, great community, and it's so wonderful that all these people come together from all over the world at the same time. And isn't it wonderful? Look, we've got the technology to do this as well, right? It's just fantastic. And it's you know, it's it's a nice, it's a very it's quite a close-knit group. There's around 12 of us or so on a regular basis. There's about 65 on the mailing list all over the world. Obviously, the timing is very difficult to get. Like I got a lot of emails from Asia uh where people were um, you know, people wish that I did it a bit earlier because it was you know 2 a.m. their time. Um, so uh that's a shame. But um but yeah, I I share the videos, we share the text, and people take part. It's actually it's funny actually, there's people in Asia, and what they do is they send these like AI bots into the meeting, and the bots take notes on the meeting to get because the person can't attend it in person. So their their bot goes in, takes the notes, and then we share the videos and we share the readings, and it it's really nice, and it you know, it's just a bunch of people who um who feel the same way as me, you know, they they want to work out what the world is and what their place in it is and how they should live their life, like you know, um it's it's the you know the life examined, I guess.
SPEAKER_03And I was gonna ask you, like for for someone who knows nothing about stoicism, if you had to like succinctly describe it, how would you do that?
SPEAKER_01Uh to succinctly describe stoicism would be uh virtue is the only good. Um you have uh absolute power within the domain of your own will or soul or mind, right? However, you however you want to put it, you know, you you you need to come to terms with that power that that you have within the domain of your own mind. I it's often called the inner citadel, right? It's the innermost part of a fortification that's absolutely uh impenetrable. So there's these two those two aspects of stoicism out I think are fundamental, right? You I don't think you could call yourself a stoic if you don't believe that virtue is the only good, and if you don't believe that you have absolute control within the domain of your own will. I flip that a little bit, right? Because most modern stoicism, the kind of therapeutic stoicism, say the way that that latter idea is presented is that you don't have control over all these things, right? You don't have control if it rains on your wedding day, or you know, if your uh if if your coffee gets spilt over you by someone on the subway. Well, you know, stoicism in that respect is a consolation. But to me, stoicism is not about, you know, if you if it's like a guest out switch, right? It's it's it's the the thing worth talking about here is not what you've not got control over, it's what you have all control over. You have full control um within the domain of your own soul. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I believe that you've uh referenced that stoicism is at a crossroads, and I wondered, could you describe what you meant by that and and uh just expand on that point?
A Crossroads For Stoicism
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because you know, I think his popularity is a double-edged sword. Like, you know, as we spoke about earlier, um the popularity of stoicism is is wonderful, it's good. Like I, you know, I think that I think that as a kind of therapeutic, the therapeutic stoicism, you know, is is is wonderful that that people are learning about this. But the the double-edged sword aspect of it is that you know sometimes it's emptied out of its content to be able to be communicated on a on a kind of mascale. Um, and that that kind of concerns me. And I I just want to take people on the journey into the deeper idea of stoicism, which is you know, this radical revisualizing of the world, right? Of seeing the world in a completely different way, which is arguably the true way of seeing the world. So that that's the juncture that stoicism is at, and uh you know, I think it's a crucial time and a crucial juncture. I think there's a twin crisis we're engulfed in, right? And the twin crisis is this, right? I'm I mentioned the crisis of agency, right? But the crisis of agency is subsumed into uh a bigger crisis, which is a crisis of mental and spiritual well-being, especially among young people, right? When you look at people under 25 or so, um, and you look at the data around how they're feeling about themselves, it's incredibly alarming, right? It's a very uh serious problem is is unfolding right in front of us, right? Hiding in plain sight. Um, and then the other side of the twin crisis is a crisis of uh trust or faith in institutions. Um media, medicine, healthcare, law, uh, law and order, uh, law enforcement, even the even the military, and most certainly politics, um is is engulfed in a crisis of faith or trust. And uh I think that stoicism could do a great deal to solve that twin crisis or at least mitigate it to a huge extent. Um and and you know, so so the so the work that I try to do is try to present stoicism not as something that's focused solely on the self, on the on you know, on on helping yourself, which which is an important aspect, but to also focus on these ideas around what social uh stoicism can do for society and how it can help with that that twin crisis of trust and uh and um spiritual and mental well-being.
SPEAKER_03What is the mark that you hope to be making with what you're contributing on this level?
Agency, Paradox, And Responsibility
SPEAKER_01I I want to play my small part, right? Uh I I think what we need is is we don't need a revolution, we certainly don't need a revolution, a societal level, but I think we need a revolution of the soul, and it needs to be a revolution of the soul, soul by soul, right? And whatever we can, whatever I can do to contribute to that idea of people seeing the world more holistically and thinking more spiritually, and I don't mean spiritual in a woo-woo way, I don't mean like a kind of invisible, floaty ghost spirit, I mean spiritual in a in a in a way where we think kind of programmatically about the self and the world and the interaction between the self and the world, and um holistically, right? And whatever small contribution I can make is worthwhile. And it's it's kind of worth pointing out that when I talk about Stoicism, I often draw parallels and similarities between Stoicism and Eastern non-dualism, right? There's Eastern non-dual philosophies like Buddhism and uh Vedantic strands of you know kind of Hindu culture that look at the world and the spirit in this kind of holistic way. Um that isn't necessarily woo-woo, right? There's you know, Buddhists who are very much materialists. Um, and you know, there's parallels between that and stoicism. And I I think I think this is the this is, you know, we're at this point where you know we we may need to take this step to to survive, you know, it you know, to keep our um humanity in intact.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and uh I wonder, oh, go ahead, uh Suzanne. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02That was very interesting, Stephen. Thank you. I appreciate your really your really broad perspective. And I do have several questions, but the one that's I think most prominent is um connecting to the crisis of agency, and then on one hand, like oh, the therapeutic stoicism that is more towards the self and comforting, versus maybe the virtue direction, which is more collective action, and that's also where you started. Your interest is in collective action and in and agency, and then the part that confused me is where you use use the word radical, like seeing the world radically differently, but you also use the word radical when you spoke about incarceration and justice and the fundamental radical um idea of stoicism that everyone is innocent. Yeah, if they're ignorant, if they're ignorant, they're still innocent. And I'm wrestling with agency and absolute power in your own mind, which to me is responsibility to learn anything you can learn to do the best you can. So that is the the can you speak more to that tension?
Practicing Fearlessness Daily
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. I think it's more than a tension, it's it's there's a there's so Sturcism's famous for its paradoxes, and that's a central paradox, right? Is it is you know, how does what how can one become wise with like how how do I even put this? So so I I I kind of I understand your line of questioning, but I think I think the idea is that um because we're thinking about this holistically, right, programmatically, um people can find wisdom with within themselves, right? And I think it's the idea is that um we we must go through a process of coming to terms with ourselves in order to uh find our way out of um ignorance, right? Because you know, ultimately we do that on our journey from childhood to adulthood anyway. Now, if a if a criminal or somebody who does wrong, right, they they do wrong because they're because they're ignorant, but it's still an indifferent to us, right? To to every so the stoic would teach to everyone else the criminal has done there's nothing bad about what the criminal is doing, and I know that's incredibly that's an incredibly tough thing to explain to victims of crime or to you know or to people who've who's who've suffered um as a as a result of crime, but stoicism is very um uncompromising in that respect. So so the idea is that um the the we might you know we need to help the criminal come to you know through the journey to to understanding what is good what is good and bad, right? And what turning them to virtue. Um but there's nothing like the there's there's nothing to be said about about the wrong in the first place, about the you know the the vice in the criminal in the f in the first place, if that if that makes sense. But but it's it's it's definitely um attention, this this idea look you know how could how can how can one be it's uh it's related to the um argument of laziness, right? Which is you know, which is often talked about in the context of determinism, which is uh if everything is preordained, if everything is determined, um, why would I bother taking medicine if I got ill? Because you know, I'm either I'm either determined to be to be cured or I'm determined to stay ill. And that that the paradox that you're touching on is kind of related to that, is like what you know, how could someone how can someone find their way out of ignorance in the first place? And I I just think I think my you know my answer to that, um, and you can tell I'm stumbling a little here. My answer to that is just simply by degrees. It's by um it's it's incumbent on those who have achieved wisdom to try and help those who who aren't wise and and to do so in the in the kind of best way that they can, uh degree by degree. If that works for you. The paradox is still there, but what I'm like, if I would summarize it for myself, is like, oh, what I'm hearing is that it that there's an essential no judgment, like you apply your agency to yourself and you don't judge, you don't apply your agency to judge other people's knowledge or which is what which is what I meant by yeah, which is what I meant by like everything in the world, all events, all occurrences are indifferent to us. So so like a crime is not so heinous to a stoic. A stoic looks at a crime and says, that's a dispreferred indifferent, right? We're we're kind of digging into stoic theory here, right? But um, a crime happening in the world, and even if I'm a victim of crime, so Epictetus talked about this a lot, like um clearly he was a victim of crime, uh, he was a victim of things like theft um and potentially abuse from his master. Epictetus was um formerly a slave, um, and he spoke about it in terms of you know, these these acts are happening to me. I would I disprefer them, right? I I'd rather they didn't happen, but they're still nothing to me because the only thing that's important to me is the integrity of my own soul and my own will, right? And when you think about the world in that way, the paradox is somewhat softened because you know a crime to a crime outside of the mind of the criminal is no longer a heinous thing. Does if that makes sense? It makes 50% sense, I think. I think there's no there's no such thing as a good philosophy that doesn't have paradoxes. If you look at Eastern non-dualism um and things like that, um there's there's plenty of of paradoxes, and I I think those paradoxes say more about the inadequacy of language um as a vehicle for ideas as it does about the philosophies themselves. And the philosophies that uh don't have paradoxes are often the most vacuous, empty philosophies.
SPEAKER_03Given this struggle with the paradoxes that we're talking about, I wonder if there's an example from your life or someone you know uh who embraces Stoicism as a way of life, as you do. Uh, any kind of everyday examples where that balance that you're talking about that that you've experienced through Stoicism?
Nature, Beauty, And Coherence
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so yeah, so I I you know I know other Stoics through the Stoic group. Um, there's some incredibly wise and interesting people. I'm I'm not, you know, like I'm not why I'm not wise, I'm far from wise, um, but we try. It's and it's a philosophy of orientation, right? It's about finding your lodestar and orientate orienting yourself to lodestar. And and that's what we try and do. I remember reading um a fantastic quote by a priest who said, I'm not a Christian, I try to be Christian. Um, and that's the kind of way that I think about um stoicism is like it's you constantly have to have this um awareness, this uh mindfulness about your own actions, and and like this kind of self um examination that you need to undertake every day through your actions to to ensure that you're you're um doing things that in in a way that you think it has moral integrity. Um, and I think you know, one of the most practical things I'd say about stoicism, and with you know, this may sound like another burst of hyperbole, right? Here we go. Stoicism is the cure for fear, right? I you know, I think I think if you look at stoicism through one lens, a very fundamental lens, right? It's it's it's the idea that um you can live without fearlessness. And if you think about fear and you think about desire, fear and desire are two sides, two sides of the same coin, right? We're greedy things because we're scared of um a lack of things, right? We're um deser, you know, we're we we want to be popular because we're afraid of solitude. And um stoicism on a on a very practical level allows us to examine our fears, right? And and examine our desires as a as a as the other side of the coin of those fears, and and think about them in a rational way, um, which um is a superpower that that can actually dissipate those fears. Um and you know, this is very common in statism to rehearse your fears and to to go through your fears and and examine them so that you you can be um you can be prepared. There's um what are those things in submarines, gyroscope, is it a gyroscope? Those things that keep submarines on an even keel. It's kind of it's kind of like that, it's like a mental version of that. It's having a gyroscope, something that keeps you on an even keel as you orientate yourself to your to your philosophical and um ethical load style.
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Do people think that's like an absurd exaggeration?
SPEAKER_03I think the way you brought it back just now, as you know, we're all practicing something, whatever, you know, whatever we're we're working at, we're we're flawed and we're working towards these goals that we have. And this to me just lays out uh certain goals that you can set before yourself in uh walking a path towards you know however you define the good and the the virtuous.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, the the good in the virtuous in stoicism is defined as being acting in accordance with nature. So in Stoicism, you know, it's the idea that you like your your soul acts in conformity with with with nature. Um so so like the stoic the stoic idea is that there's no alternative to that, right? There's there's no you know there's there's no kind of um acceptance of any kind of plural plurality of um of of of living well, like that you know it's is our way or the highway, I guess. But um, but yeah, I you know I think I think just having set yourself a path, right? Um is is is already a good first step, for sure. Um yeah, and and you know it's it's it's I think we're all interested in aesthetics, right? We're interested in art. Um and there's something very there's something very beautiful about stoicism. This stoicism's symmetric, it's integrated, it's harmonious, it's um the one is in the parts, and in each part is reflected the one. And uh it it it has all these um it has so much in common that think with things that we regard as beautiful, and that's part of the appeal for me with with philosophy is um is ideas can be very beautiful, um and and I and I don't mean it's beautiful in a in a way that it's beautiful literature, I think it's it's just beautiful thoughts um and how how they come together, the integrity of those thoughts. And um to me, beholding stoicism is like beholding a work of art, like a beautiful work of art. You know, name name whatever work of art you like, but that that to me, the structure of stoicism in my mind is um is is very nice.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Stephen. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you walking us through your journey with Stoicism and giving us all this background to to look at it from. Is there anything that I have not asked you that you would want to share?
SPEAKER_01Not really, but I would love to know what pi what other people think of uh stoicism. Does anyone want to share their thoughts?
SPEAKER_00First of all, thank you so much for all of that. I'm very much a novice to all of this. I I've never studied any of this stuff and just have a very kind of vague idea what it's all about. But um yeah, I find it all really fascinating, and I think sort of very helpful in a very practical way, which you don't always think of when you think about kind of philosophy and um you know the the thoughts and philosophies and um principles of you know the great thinkers of the past. You wouldn't necessarily um think that you know it's it's gonna help you in your sort of day-to-day the way you live your life, and um yeah, the more you spoke, the more I thought I think it would be a really great thing for kids at school to be taught kind of practical philosophy, and I think it can, you know, can really give you tools to confront some of the really hard stuff in your life, and just that very practical thing that you were talking about about kind of you know, rationalizing and understanding fears in life and and finding sort of paths to um assimilate them and and kind of overcome them in some way.
SPEAKER_01It's it's interesting to hear your point of view. It's um it's really I you know, I think you it's a great point that we should teach this stuff to school children, or not necessarily teach stuff to them as a dogma, but but to make them think in a particular way. And it philosophy comes from wonder. Like I used to lay in bed as a child and I just couldn't believe how I'm here or why why me? Why here? Why do I speak English? Why do I live in England? Why why don't I live in Bangladesh? Why don't I live in the year 2000 BC? You know, I'd hope that we kids could take that the momentum of those kinds of thoughts, those wonders, and and turn them into something where that eventually does inform collective action and and ways that we can make the world a better place for everyone.
SPEAKER_03There will be links in the show notes to learn more. If you were intrigued by this podcast, it would be much appreciated if you could leave a rating of review and to add warfare email. Until next time, this is Stephanie Johnny bringing Warfare Heart and Money. Thank you so much for listening. Any member, any gentleman, any lady, anyway, gentlemen.