412 Emmanuel Luwemba – Disrupting the seed monopolies in East Africa

Seeds, seeds, seeds. It all starts with power and who controls the seeds. But who is actually building scalable companies in this space? Today we have one: a decentralised seed company in Uganda that only works with indigenous seeds, is farmer-owned, and gives power, value, and control back to the farmers. The farmers are trained to select seeds and to grow them, and Emmanuel Luwemba, the founder of Eden Seeds, helps sell the best varieties to other farmers without extracting all life from the countryside like most seed companies do.

What about yields? Emmanuel went deep into what farmers actually need. Of course, yield is important, but so is profitability. Dirty little secret: hybrid seeds are often very expensive and need a lot of very expensive inputs to perform. They often don’t perform in challenging circumstances (droughts, extreme weather, etc). Taste, flavour, and nutrition are important too. Indigenous seeds are naturally high in iron, for example and there’s no need for a multimillion-dollar, donor-funded GMO or CRISPR project to change hybrid seeds to add extra iron. Just breed, grow, and eat the indigenous variety selected over time for iron. That’s not to say we can’t develop these seeds further or that they are frozen in time, of course we can and should. If indigenous seeds got a quarter of the funding hybrids get, they would outperform everyone.

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Transcript

Power Begins With Seeds

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Seeds, seeds. It all starts with the power and who controls the seeds. But who is actually building scalable companies in the space? Today we have one: a decentralized seed company in Uganda, which only works with indigenous seeds and is farmer-owned and gives power, value, and control back to the farmer. The farmers are trained to select seeds, to grow them, and eat in seeds helps them to sell the best varieties to other farmers without extracting all life from the countryside, like most of the seed companies do. And I can hear you think, what about yields? Our guest of today went deep into what farmers actually need. Of course, yield is important, but profitability, the dirty little secret, hybrid seeds are often very expensive and need a lot of very expensive inputs to thrive. And they often don't perform at all in challenging circumstances like droughts and extreme weather. And taste and flavor and nutrition are very important. Indigenous seeds, which are naturally high in iron, for example, no need for a multi-million dollar donor-funded GMO or CRISPR project to change hybrid seeds and inject a lot of iron in it. No, just breed, grow, and eat the indigenous varieties, selected over time for iron. That's not to say we can't develop these seeds further and that they are frozen in time or something. Of course, we can and should. If indigenous seeds got a quarter of the funding hybrids get, they would outperform everyone on the market. Enjoy. This episode is part of the Regenerative African series, where we interview leading regenerative agroecological entrepreneurs across East Africa. It's a special collaboration with the Organic Guy Podcast and supported by Rutico, a regenerative venture studio rooted in East Africa. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food Podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities, and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Welcome to another episode today with the founder of Eden Seeds, scaling decentralized indigenous seeds in Uganda and beyond. Welcome, Emmanuel. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah. We're gonna take a deep dive into seeds, which is a topic that is on the mind of many, and there are not so many people that have managed to build companies around it. Of course, we know the big four, three, two, whatever the big conglomerates have merged into before you listen to this. But seeds, it's such an important, I mean, we can say it all starts with seeds. We talk about it sometimes with Chef Dan Barber, we had Seed Link, Nico, but that's pretty much it, I think. And I'm so happy to have you here through Hannes of Rutico, and of course through Brian, it's the organic guide. This is a two-word-part interview. Brian had you on before, and I have, of course, used that as a input for this conversation. So I'm looking forward to taking it deeper. This is part of our African Frontrunner series on regenerative food and agriculture, pioneers, and I'm so happy to have you here. But start with a personal question, which you partly answered in the world of Brian, but let's see if people have listened to that or not. What brings you into this space? Why are you spending most of your waking hours thinking and most importantly acting on seeds?

Yield Myths And True Profitability

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, maybe I'll introduce myself first again. My name is Ruemba Emanuel. I'm a Ugandan, 34 years of age. I'm an agriculturalist and the co-founder and director, Eden Seeds. Yeah, basically, I grew up in the farming community. My auntie, my mother, and my dad, we are all farmers. And then you see also the neighboring farmers, they are always selling seeds season after season. But now you see many farmers can't do that. I'm also an extension worker. But then you see a lot of trend that is coming in farmers are relying on the expensive hybrids. Very unfortunate that sometimes they don't work for them because they are not suited for the soils here, they are not suited for the climate here. And then why indigenous seeds, when you look at our indigenous seeds, they are resilient to the climate we have here, they are nutritious, and then also they are well placed to the law farm inputs that majority of our farmers actually have here. So for me, regenerative agriculture is more of a return back to my community, giving back to my community, making sure that my community is resilient and also seeing my people having enough food and enough incomes. I think agroecologists, regenerative agriculture, and most importantly, our seeds, because any food system, the seeds form the foundation of that. So if we don't have control of our seeds, then we don't have control of our food system.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Yeah. And just to paint a picture, like your auntie and your mother and your father, when you saw them farming and you helped a lot, obviously you were very involved. And also the neighbors and even the current situation, let's say, outside Aden seeds, what are the current places farmers in Uganda find their seeds and you say sometimes they pay a lot of money for it and they don't work? And what are the current options if they don't work with you, or what were the options when you got exposed to agriculture?

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Yeah, I would say maybe I would just give you a little statistic here is that almost 80% of our farmers here get their seed from the informal seed sector. That is it. You find they are either getting yeah, they are getting it either from their neighbor or some of them are going to buy seed from uh agriculture shops. Some of it is not even of quality, then we only have the 15% that have access to the hybrids. So you find that people have that mix, but in the end, like I said, they are struggling with it because, first of all, if the seed is not quality, then in most cases the hybrid is not easily accessible. When I talk about our rural communities, very distant from trading centers, so we find that it is very hard for even some farmers to access these hybrid seeds. Yeah, so it is a mix there in terms of poor quality of the seed. Uh, they are expensive, but also even accessing them is really not easy. So, like for us, Eden seeds, now we bring in a community engagement where we are working with farmers to produce the seed of high quality, and then we are able to distribute it so that it reaches the last mile of farm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

And just to paint the picture, I know you went to conventional, traditional agriculture school, and then got into, let's say, the more agricology way of farming, partly through worms. Can you, and you mentioned you had to delete almost all the learning of school? Do you remember when your curiosity got triggered for, let's say, a different kind of agriculture, not focused on high input, high output, but focused on lower input and also a significant output, but lower input systems, agricology systems. Do you remember when you got curious about those? Of course, you grew up in that, but when you got curious about it, because in school it was very different. Yeah, you're very right.

Emmanuel’s Path To Agroecology

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I think when I joined my first employment, loaded with a lot of conversional. But I would also say that my my time at the university was also now very crucial. Of course, now you understand. I started to understand now the science behind some of these practices that I saw my auntie, my communities doing. So now, of course, the university gives me that kind of platform to also now learn the science behind the organic farming. But I would say when I joined my first employment, I go there and of course I'd done them for my special project, and they're asking me, Emma, you are here, you want us to give you a job. But what is so unique about you? Because everyone has a degree, they can grow crops, okay, they can do the agronomy, but what is different with you? So now I said, I can grow worms and produce a better organic fertilizer that can improve the cell structure, that can also give the plants some immunity to some of the pests and diseases, and now people listen, and then they give me a job instantly. You can't believe. So I realized that much as I had this quality education, the conversion, but the world looked for something that is unique. I wouldn't say unique in the sense that it's new, but something that gives us an opportunity to return to where we belong. I would say, yeah. Like regenerative agriculture is just returning back to resilience, returning back to farmer knowledge, returning back to community, I would say community survival and community empowerment.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Yeah. And how did you get into worms in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah, I would say I was at the university and then one of our lecturers came in and said, Yeah, I need students to come and join me. Have a project around worms, so who are those that are interested? So it was the studio fast that we are interested. I would say I was just lucky that I just went in. Okay, you raised your hand. Yeah, yeah. I just said, let me go in and give it a try, do my special project and graduate. But in the end, I find that was one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life because it has changed the way I think about agriculture, the way I think about communities, and the way I think about the environment.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah. And now taking a step into why a venture and why around seeds and the indigenous side of seeds, like what is needed, or what did you see as an opportunity? And then we'll talk how you turned it into a venture. But what did you see as an opportunity and a need in the indigenous seed space? Like what was missing, what is lacking to be able to compete or to be able to help farmers and communities that you are so close with?

Mapping Farmer Seed Access In Uganda

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah, so now when I started working with farmers as an extension worker, I wouldn't again see this so many problems, not very different from those that I saw when I was growing up. So infasting infertility, disappearance over one indigenous seeds, the climate change. So now, but then you have to as an extension worker, I had to now sit down and course with the farmers what is the most pressing. What is very unique with protocol is that we just didn't think for ourselves to start business. We had to go back to communities and do a full system analysis. What is the most pressing problems? I would say all the problems, each of them that farmers face have their own weight. But then for me, I was very keen on seed because I'm seeing we are losing a lot of seed in terms of diversity. My aunt would have over 10 varieties of beans, but now surely she can only access three or four. So we are losing our seeds, but then also on the other side that have been with farmers and working with them, you see that some of them are constrained financially, so they can't make these high-end inputs. Maybe the conventional inputs. You tell them applying fertilizers, they can't buy it. You buy this, they can't. But then you hear you see because you find that seeds uh determine a lot of things that happen in your farm, right away from soil health, uh, pest and disease, incidences, or even the pressure that comes with the pest and disease, all those start with the seed. So now why I chose seeds is that I really wanted to come in and support my community, aligning with what is realistic, solving the real problems of farmers. That's why I chose seeds because seeds are the foundation of this food system, and they determine a lot of things that happen at that farm.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah. And when you analyzed with, as you mentioned, with Routeco, going deep into the problem, loving, falling in love with the problem, I think is one of their quotes. What did you discover? What was your biggest surprise about the seed world that you didn't know before?

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, first of all, it was more of the mindset. A lot of uh people here, a lot of our farmers have been made to believe that our indigenous seeds don't perform, like they don't have any value. So you'd only find a few farmers that still believe in these seeds. And contrary to what we've been told, contrary to what has been said, you'd find a few farmers telling you, yes, these seeds yield, these seeds are tolerant to pest and diseases, they are tolerant to drought, they are nutritious, and most importantly, these seeds are culturally rooted. People have cultural beauty related to these seeds. So those are things I found out when I worked with the farmers because also at Eden Seeds, we involved farmers in creating a solution that works for the farmers.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah. And then I know you don't like the project-to-project mindset of many NGOs or many of these things, and you decided to start a venture for what was which was one of that those reasons. When did you realize there's a venture opportunity here? There's something to be built, there's a company to be built, and not just quote unquote, which are relevant as well, but a seat saving or a seat sharing uh project somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, yeah, you've said it very well. Like most of the experience I had when I was working with NGOs, when a project closes, you also lose all this groundwork, the effort you put in. So now when Rutko comes with a business mind, I say yes, we've worked that I took it as an opportunity, not also to lose this other work we had worked on when it came to community seed banking. I said when we started adding seeds, we delivered already on the existing work because I was already there about working with about four community seed banks. I knew the farmers, so all I did was how now can I start, first of all, making money is important, but how can I also help my farmers to make sure that we develop this as a business venture, but most importantly, also in the way of supporting farmers to make money. Because if you if however beautiful or however wonderful the regenerative model can be, but as long as it doesn't make money for the farmer, it doesn't last. So we had to realign that at ABC, realigning the farmer knowledge, farmer income, as well as the market demand so that we can also be able to survive beyond being a startup. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

And so let's go to the venture first. What have you built? What are you building? How do the different parts of Eden Seeds work? And how does it serve the different entities or different share of stakeholders that you mentioned, the farmers, of course, the soil, and the entrepreneurs and investors as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah, the main problem as why Eden or the main reason why Eden Seeds exist is that we want to improve access for quality and performant seeds amongst more older farmers. So in that, you find that LN seeds is decentralized. We believe that seed performs better if it is well adopted to those local conditions. So in that we are decentralized. So we have hubs because farmers have grown this seed for so many years or so many generations in that particular soils in those particular climate conditions. So we believe that the seed is well suited for the particular region and not the other region. The seeds is decentralized, farmer-owns seed brand. That is very important. Farmers are part of this key decision making, they are part of their seed saving, they are part of ensuring that the seed is quality. They also determine the prices because at the end of the day, we want to make this affordable for our farmers. Yeah.

Choosing Seeds To Solve Real Problems

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Then and so you how does it flow in terms of? I'm a farmer in in one of the regions of one of your hubs. How do I engage? What could be my role in in both ends? I'm looking for seeds, or I maybe have seeds.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, so we have categories of farmers that we work with. Some of them are affiliated to community seed banks, some of them are individuals, some of them are into groups. So we train them on how to multiply seeds, save it, grade it. And then for us as Eden Seeds, we are more of a distributor now. We create demand for this seeds through training farmers on the benefits of these indigenous seeds, then we're able to sell it also through agroinput shops. So eden seeds in partnership with farmers that grow their seeds and then also put shops, the agroinput shops that distribute the seed to other farmers that don't break the seed.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

So you find we are. What's in it for the agro breaking that cycle? And for the agro import, like the normal input shops, they also sell other, they also sell the inputs, the inputs and the other seeds. How does that compete or how does that work in practice?

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah, good. Like I said, we already have that competitive advantage of our seeds being local red adopted to the local conditions. So we have gotten a lot of farmer testimonies. Yes, ever since I started using ANCs. Now I'm using less inputs and also getting quite some good yield. So we have those testimonies. And when we created demand through trainings to the farmer groups, even the farmers now themselves go and demand the seed from the agroin food shops. Yes, I want ANC because not because it is cheap, but because I know it works. Yeah, because it works, it is seed that I will grow, and I don't need to rely a lot on chemicals. So you find we are now developing ourselves basically because the seed works for the farmers, it is solving the root problems of farmers. Yeah, it fits within the yellow input farming practices, and yeah, that is what is now helping us to gain traction.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah. Is there a tension that could push you in the direction of the let's say the conventional chemically driven seed companies? As in you might say, because you have a number of different varieties, I think eight different varieties of beans, etc. etc. That you see one of them is actually more profitable and more interesting, and that you just not focus on the rest and focus on one only because that drives the business. Or what's is there a danger of not of getting too focused, having to select basically for what works the best and that does not doing the others?

Building Eden Seeds As A Venture

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Yeah, I would say that's the our mission is discussing regenerative agriculture, making sure that we have the biodiversity, not only one seed variety. So you find that it drives us to make sure that also we keep the other varieties, much as they are not commercial, but we keep multiplying them, we keep promoting them because I'll tell you that each of those varieties has a certain attribute. Either it could be cookability, or it is easy to manage in the garden because it doesn't climb, or it is grout resistant, or it is testy. So each of those varieties, like you said, we currently have seven, eight varieties and we Are still getting more each time we get an opportunity to get a new variety, we bring it back, we bring it into our community, of course, so that we keep multiplying it and also creating demand for it. Each of those varieties has a certain attribute. Yeah, and they also at the back of it all, Edin Seeds is the steward-owned enterprise. We have what we call purpose lock team. So we have root core as our eye. We cannot reflect from our mission. Our mission is to come in and support our communities, not to extract, not to not to pick money from them, but rather help them solve problems.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

And the steward ownership piece is something that's, of course, central to root to call and to Fresh Ventures, another venture studio based in the Netherlands. And we've had Armin Sorinago of Purpose Ventures and Purpose Economy on a long time ago, actually. I should link that back. It's such a powerful concept that's becoming more and more luckily, slowly, but surely more widespread. And are you basically also mapping for the first time a lot of these seeds and like analyzing, not giving them a name, but just make starting to create an overview of which indigenous seeds even exist in these regions around beans and other crops? Has that been done before? Is that basically the nature of your like almost by accident you're creating a map of which seeds are still out there and what do they actually do and taste and cook, etc.?

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yeah, so we are learning and we are yet to get into that kind of research and then documentation. Because you find the varieties are there and we rely a lot on the indigenous knowledge, the knowledge of the farmer. What are they seeing about each variety? What have they seen do or not do over the generations that they are building the seed? But you've read you've raised a very important question. Maybe it also to go back and think about we need to start mapping this variety of them, uh what are its attributes. I think that is something that we need to take on as NC to that also create more value not only for our communities but also for the wider parts of the country and then also the nation house. So it is something that is really good.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yeah, and also if you can capture what the farmers are sharing or what the farmers know somehow, or somehow capture, because that's also disappearing for sure with generational shifts, etc., how much knowledge there is of these seeds, which is not written down, I'm imagining, which is known in stories, like you have to plant this in a certain way because then before this rains, because etc. etc. That knowledge would be amazing if it doesn't get lost, basically, to for future generations that want to get into farming and that don't know that you should plant them in the rains, not before, or whatever. The specific lesson is. Do you see a role of technology there to speed up seed selection? Obviously, not the GMO side or the editing side, but to use, if you have that data, to use some big data of things like AI, etc., to understand better. Okay, what if what happens if we keep growing this or we keep selecting or we keep developing these seeds? Do you see that as another role for you at some point?

SPEAKER_01 26:02

I think technology is very crucial. I think across the value chain, technology is really important because with technology you can do a lot of things. For example, here, when it comes to seed grading, we have to use a seed grader to support us in grading this seed in different sizes so that it is thinner, small, medium, or large. Of course, when you choose to do it manually, it can take you like to grade 100 kilograms and take you three days or four, and that is maybe a group of women, like four or ten. But with a machine, 30 minutes, you're good to go. Then also technology like AI, I think that is also crucial because that's where we are all heading to also help us analyze some of these attributes and be able to document them. I think technology is very crucial.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

And it should be the direction we should be heading.

Decentralized Hubs And Farmer Roles

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yeah. But you're not doing that yet, right? In this terms of the machinery side, but in terms of analyzing, because maybe that data isn't there yet because you haven't been able to collect so many attributes. Yeah, very true.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah. And I think that is an area that we can also interest ourselves into. Yeah, this data was collected, then you can also now use some AI tools to analyze and give us maybe at what rate are we losing our seeds? What do we need to do so that we may have them survive?

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Yeah. If farmers are documenting, even with photos and voice messages, things, or if there are ways to get more data in from the people that are actually developing the seeds, the farmers, then at some point, of course, with transcribing now, it can start to get more quality data in as well, or at least data that you can search. And then switching to, because I know you wanted to become a medic when you were in when you were smaller, switching to the health and nutrition. You mentioned flavor a few times, seeds. How important is flavor, nutrition, quality for the farmers and for the seeds you're selling?

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yeah, I would say it all begins with these seeds being culturally rooted. Farmers attach a lot of importance, a lot of history to these seeds. And like you said, what we do here is to provide the diversity rather than the uniformity. So you give a farmer or a consumer a variant, and then he chooses what do they want. Are they interested in the color because it's red, because it's black, because it's purple. Some people are just attracted to things because of their color. Then you find some farmers that are attracted, they will say, I prefer this kind of bean for spew. I prefer this other type of beans for soup. You give the farmer that platform to choose from. Then also, secondly, the nutritional value is also important. You find the red beans, they are rich in iron, you find the purple, they are rich in magnesium. So you find the white bean, they are rich in vitamin, which is maybe not in the red beans. So I think it's very crucial for us to provide our customers, our communities, the variety for them to pick.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah. And this brings up an interesting rabbit hole potentially, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Let's see if we dive into it. There's a lot of talk in the development community, in the very technological focused world, let's say, of we have to genetically edit, we have to bring these vitamins and this iron, etc., into crops. Rice is a famous example. My argument is always, but I would love to hear from you because you're deep into the seeds and the weeds, is that it's way easier to find an indigenous seed that or indigenous crop that has it already in it and work with that than to try to put, I don't know how many millions into some kind of program to do that. What you're mentioning iron a few times and some other vitamins. Do you see potential there to basically using indigenous seeds and maybe develop them further that already have this basically built-in because they have been selected for being super nutritious?

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yes, I think that is key. And it can solve us a lot of problems. What we are looking for in supplements is actually can be good unfold. And what we are talking about here is not history. This is how our communities, our generations before us, used to live, and they are much healthier, and life was good. But here we are stuck on new trends, new varieties that are only specifically with some nutrients and not others. Yet we had these indigenous having a variety of nutrients, but even then you find that you have this kind of maze, it's rich in vitamin B1, then the other varieties rich in vitamin B or vitamin C. So when you have such a variety on your plate, it will give you so many chances of having all these vitamins, all these nutrients into your body. But now here we are on the staff on monocultures, on single varieties. We are just consumers. They just tell you, oh, this variety is good for your grandplant. Oh no, that one is now not good. Go with this. But now, if we have an opportunity to go back to our regional, we stick back to what worked before the hybrids, before the chemicals. I think if we invested in our indigenous fields, if we worked on the policies, for example, you find that in some countries it is not allowed for people to share seed. But if we change our policies and make it very friendly for farmers to multiply, save, and then also even sell seed, I think we can solve this problem. So if I had the power, if I had the money, I would invest in local seed businesses and then maybe be able to make nutritious foods instead of supplements. Yeah.

Demand, Distribution, And Testimonials

SPEAKER_02 32:35

You're answering a question. I always ask, what would you do if you were an investor? We'll get to that maybe in a slightly different way then. But I think what's interesting is you're mentioning some of these policies and laws against seed sharing, always with the argument we have to protect quality and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which of course is only in the interest of large, very chemically focused seed companies. You're basically showing that you can absolutely work on quality while you're saving seeds and while you're training farmers. Like it's a bit of a non-argument. But do you see, and also there's often an argument about yield? You're saying it's more important to look at nutrition and profitability because indigenous seeds in many cases are more profitable and way more nutritious. Do you see potential in improving the yields? Are you doing active breeding programs to improve, quote unquote, the yield of these indigenous seeds that you work with?

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yeah, of course, we do a lot of selection. For example, you have an acre, five acres. You find that you have those few that are yielding, for example, in maize, you have those that will give you two cobs. And then we pick seed from those. If we want now to create a line of our maize that, for example, in maize, we have maybe five acres, and you plant maize, but there are those maize plants that we put on two cobs. Then we select those for next season. If we are interested in maize plants that give us two cobs, then we shall select seed from search. So an example is when we uh plant and then we are we want to do early maturing, we want to select the maturing plants. Of course, they are those plants that will put the tassel first, put the fruit first, and then be able to mature maybe in less than a week. So if we want early maturing maize, then we go for search. We pick from such crops that we get our seeds from search if we are interested in early maturing. The same also applies to even pest and disease tolerance. So you we pick from such crops that have shown that they can perform again such a stretch, and yeah, it's where we pick and carry on on to the next seasons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

And have you seen like significant improvements like over over time? And do you see farmers leaning in and getting excited about that as well? That it's not just indigenous, you said it's not history, like it's future, and but also so you're able to show that it indigenous seeds are not just something from our grandparents, but actually something for our children.

Biodiversity Over Single Winners

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Yes, I'm seeing a lot of people, uh their mindset is now changing. They are trying to now break those myths that were said about indigenous seeds because they are seeing it for themselves. They are seeing this maize are being reproducible, that they are planting it this season, even next season, they can plant it and still give them yield, which is something they are not used to. They are being used to hybrids where every season they are buying and they have to use new seeds every season. But now with high with our indigenous seeds, farmers are seeing it that it is possible. You can use your seed season after season and still maintain the same yield. It is very true that indigenous seeds will not compete at the same front with uh hybrid when it comes to yield. But where the economics come in terms of input, how much are you buying the seed for hybrid, the maintenance, the pest pressure that comes with it. So if you do and a cost-benefit analysis, you find that also the indigenous either are competing at the same level or slightly lower.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Yes, I would say that's so just to repeat for the people in the back that didn't take notes or that weren't listening, indigenous seeds are as profitable or more economical as the hybrid ones, which comes mostly through uh slightly less yield, but significantly lower cost, and of course better taste and flavor and things like that, but significantly lower, lower cost and more resistance in times of drought and pests and flooding and all of that. Yes. And does it hurt you then that sorry, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

No, it's okay. I was also saying it is also important that the farmer can use this seed even the next planting season.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

But I was actually gonna ask about that. Does it hurt you as a business?

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, of course. I would say that we are working with smallholder farmers. When harvest time comes, they think of selling everything, and when the new season comes, they want to buy new seed. So we still have those farmers that believe in buying seed every season, and then, but then those that are able to keep seed and be able to use it the next season. Of course, we are here to make sure that our farmers have access to indigenous seeds. So, in the long run, we are achieving, much as in the short time we could be losing some few customers, but in the long run, we are winning because when you look at eden seeds, it is farmers first, and then the profit is second.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Yeah, and importantly, the more farmers you train and are able to save seeds and, like you said, grade them and actually select, the more potential you have in the future to have more indigenous seeds that you could potentially sell to other farmers or have in your catalog. Yeah, is that a limiting factor? Like that most farmers aren't able anymore to select, to grade, to store, to multiply, or multiple to basically grow their own seeds?

SPEAKER_01 39:18

The most farmers that keep growing these indigenous seeds, of course, it means we are having a more seed catalog, but also a farmer base and a movement uh that can show us impact and also gives us room for scaling and reproducing a similar model in maybe in another region.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

And more farmers that have learned or relearned that skill of grading seeds, maybe even at some point taking photos and recording their experiences with it, which all feed back into your catalog and into your database, basically, and potentially have more seeds that you would otherwise haven't got your hands on because if nobody's saving them and grading them, yeah, how would they come? How would they come to you? Yeah. And to ask a question, we always love to ask you partly answered it, but just to ask it more directly, if we would do this in front of a room full of investors and you have done, of course, the demo day of Rutico, what would be your main message to invest wars? What would be your main message that you would like? Which seed, which is very very practical and pun intended here, what would be the seed you would like to plant into the minds of financially focused people that would love to invest and engage more with regenerative agriculture?

Steward Ownership And Purpose Lock

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Yeah, I think for me it should be the bottom line of it is that regenerative agriculture or agroecology is social before it's technical. I would look for businesses that are embedded in communities, not destructive. And then also I'd look for businesses or ideas that solve the real farmer problems, and like for maybe the case of Uganda here. I would look for aspects of adoption because we have innovations, but if farmers are not willing to adopt them, then it doesn't matter a lot. Then also the trust is more than even the technology itself. When you when the farmers don't have trust for your innovation or your technology, however good it is, they might not take it on. Because at the end of the day, you want to know a farmer's part of this, who owns the knowledge. It's not only Eden seeds, it is also the farmers, the indigenous knowledge that comes within the communities within the farmers, and then when particularly for seed, you find that seed is not monopoly to AMCs. We don't own any varieties. These are varieties that have been here time and memorial, and then at the end of it, all the value. Who captures the value? It is most of the farmers, the communities that capture the value. As an investor, I would look for such businesses that are really bringing impact into communities that are solving the real farmer problems, and where we see that most of the value goes to the communities. And like I said, for any regenerative model, just like as Aden Seeds, it must be able to make money for the farmers for rich to last.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

What would you do if you were an investor? So if you suddenly are not leading, not directed at Eden Seeds anymore, but you are leading an investment, let's say firm, and you had a lot of money. Like we I'm not asking this because we think concentration of wealth is a good thing, but what let's say it happens and you had a billion dollars to one billion, so with nine zeros to put to work, what would you focus on? What would be your main buckets or your main priorities in terms of investing? I think I can come up with a few, but what would be yours if you had a billion dollars to put to work?

Documenting Indigenous Varieties

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Wow. For me, I think it's very simple. I would invest where regeneration is already happening. I would invest in those uh local seed businesses. I would also focus a lot on policy engagement because um, like I said, regenerative agriculture is social before it's technical. So if we understand the communities, how are they surviving, how are they doing things, and then invest in such practices, we can really create a lot more impact. And for the case of Africa here, just small investments can unlock a lot of potential in regenerative agriculture. Yeah. So it would be simple to invest in in policy engagement, especially around agriculture, around the seed itself, also invest in the seed itself. But then I would also look at uh the capital that I give out to be patient capital so that at the end of the day it creates impact for those communities.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

And what can we let's say in the West is not the right term, but let's say in Europe or in the US or North America, where many of our listeners are, what can we learn from how advanced it seems like on the Seed side of things, because I don't think many farmers in in let's say the more industrialized agriculture countries are even they're complaining where the seeds come from, but they're definitely not able to take action for a lot of different reasons. We see organic seed company after organic seed company disappearing, actually, and being bought up by by the few big ones. What can we learn from you? What would be your message to farmers on other continents, to policymakers, to investors as well, from your experience of running a successful decentralized seed business in Uganda?

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Yeah, I would say it all starts with acknowledging the small steps and keeping the bigger picture at the back of your mind. When I was starting adding seeds, it looked like something would be very big, but those small steps from engaging the farmers, listening to them, coming up with a solution that is really holistic, not only for my business, but also for the farmers themselves, we are able to build this. So I think my message would be very clear to the world that let us believe in those small steps, let us believe in our very own. Because these indigenous seeds have been here, and it is either us to treasure them and they keep giving us, they keep feeding us, or we either choose to disaband to abandon them or to disown them, and then we go for the expensive alternatives. So the choice is ours to make. We either choose to make life simple for us or we choose to make it complicated.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

That's a really good question. We have and yes, how do you prevent from being put in the corner of naive, maybe even you want to go back to farming where everything was done by hand, which of course is backbreaking and very difficult, and you're quote unquote, and I'm not saying you are, but that's often the corner where indigenous seeds are put, you were anti-technology. How do you respond to those almost accusations or those narratives or those stories about indigenous seeds? How do you make them, for lack of a better word, sexy and modern? And how do you tell those stories? Of course, you show it by farmers showing it because that's the strongest, but how is your narrative or storytelling around indigenous seeds to make sure they're not being seen as something of the past?

Tech Tools From Graders To AI

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Yeah, I always tell people that that engage me on such platforms. I tell them that if we give our indigenous seeds the same care, the same policy environment, the same investment as you give to the hybrids and medieval corporations, also these indigenous seeds can shrine. Because we don't do enough research in the indigenous seeds, we don't do enough investment that not only in production but also investment in terms of distribution of this seed and also making sure that we create enough awareness. So I always tell them that indigenous seeds also perform, and they can even outperform the hybrid seeds if you give them the right attention in terms of research, in terms of investment, and also in terms of the police environment around them. If you make them popular, if you really make it very easy for farmers to multiply, you build their capacity, then we can change the narrative. Yeah, that's what I always tell them.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Yeah, I think there's such a powerful story there and lever that we're not pulling of the if you I think somebody wrote a small blog post. Uh take Latonus, a friend of the show, also works on the continent in East Africa, on the amount of RD that goes into, in this case, the larger regenerative space compared to conventional. And it's I'm not gonna maybe one twentieth or something. It's nothing compared to what the conventional space. Imagine if we got half of that, or imagine if we double, or imagine if we had the resources to do a lot of trials and really see what maize could do. And we're really scratching, but that's great as well, because that means we have so much more potential in heal, but also in flavor and nutrition and processing and cooking, while we're not stuck in a monopolized patented system, which of course limits a lot of that because you only go for the most profitable line, and probably that's only one. And so there's a lot of potential, but we need to start taking it very seriously and not just have our technology head on. Okay, let's just genetically edit our way out of this and hope it's going to be fine, which we're now seeing, of course, that it's not the case. But it gives me a lot of hope, honestly. Of course, we need to build a platform like yours and SeedLinked, which we had on here as well, to really push that narrative of there's so much richness in the indigenous seeds and they're waiting to be unlocked. Yeah, sure. And if you had a magic wand, which is usually this is one of our last questions and then always leads to other last questions. But if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing overnight, what would that be? Could be anything as wide, as broad, from global consciousness to indigenous seeds policy. You can do it, but it's only one thing. What would you change?

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Yeah, I think you'll say it should be a change on the seed policy and then the mindset. I would want to see a lot more recognition going to our indigenous seeds, having them protected, and also the kind of investment that they receive.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Would be that policy environment, changing it, and then also the mindset that they and what's the main mindset shift that we need around seeds?

SPEAKER_02 51:26

What do you see? Let's start with far with the covered farm. What's the main switch you would like to if you could change one thing in our in all of our minds tomorrow morning?

SPEAKER_01 51:35

It should be around ownership. Who owns the seed? I think it should be the farmer. Yeah, for me, that would be the key issue that the farmer should be the owner because the farmer is keeping this seed on their farm. So if they have ownership, if they can have all the powers to save it, grow it, and then be able to exchange or even sell it, uh, that would be the kind of change I would want. That lets the power belongs to the farmer, in that we shall have control of our food system.

Flavor, Culture, And Nutrition

SPEAKER_02 52:16

And could you argue maybe this is a step too far, but the seed owns itself and the farmer only has the usage right if we go into the steward ownership direction? I beg your pardon. It is it, maybe this is too philosophical, but could you almost imagine because it's also that the farmer doesn't own the seed or the seed variety, the variety owns itself, but the farmer has the usage rights. Yeah, sure. Or is that too yeah, you're very right. Is that too philosophical?

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Yeah, actually, no, I think it's on a different level, but I think that's the reality that the farmer has user rights as as well as also other stakeholders. So, why should people plantate the seed? Why should people own the seed and put a lot of restrictions to even now even our indigenous? I think those rights should be actually it should be a natural thing, should be there for everyone, not only the farmers. So everybody should have rights, user rights to the seed. Yeah, and that's what we are talking about food sovereignty, ownership of the food system begins with ownership of the seed, or even having the user rights to the seed.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

And as a final one, what's your favorite seed? What's your favorite of all the things you've seen, touched, grown, and eaten? What would be the what's the first one that comes to mind?

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Of course, maize, so gum, because they are nutritious and then they are very feeling. Lots of energy packed into the seed, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:05

Outgoing maize. And how do you prepare it? What's your favorite way of eating it?

SPEAKER_01 54:11

I like the roasted maize, yeah. Rusting it by the fire and eating it fresh from the garden.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Amazing. I want to thank you so much, Emmanuel, for the work you do, the route you and the journey you took, and not for the faint of heart to set up a decentralized seed business anywhere, and obviously also not in in Uganda, but anywhere that's a challenge. And I think you're an inspiration to many. And thank you so much for taking the time to come here on the show to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Yeah, thank you so much. Corinne, am I uh pronouncing your name?

SPEAKER_02 54:48

It's Kuhn, it's Kun it's Kun, but don't worry.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

Kun, Kun, yeah, thank you so much, Kuhn, for hosting me and sparing your precious time. And amidst all the technical challenges you've gotten, you're very hanged on, and we are able to have this. I'm also very lucky that I'm learning from you. It has been an exchange, learning from each other, and also thank you for giving me this platform to share my voice. At the voice, there were so many that are really doing a lot of credible work in ensuring that regeneration or gentry agriculture.

Indigenous Seeds Vs Biofortification

SPEAKER_02 55:31

Thank you. Just so incredibly interesting, right? The world of seeds and hybrids and indigenous and all the stigmas and narratives and storylines that come with it in terms of field and quality and and inputs and chemicals and profitability. We covered it all, and I hope you we had some technical issues. I hope you didn't hear too much of that. Internet access is not always a given in this world, unfortunately, and not because of technology in this case, because of protests. And which also come back to power, and that's huge, like the statement of Emmanuel. You c farmers need to hold the power of seeds, otherwise, we're just not just doing gardening, but basically, yes. There is such a power dynamic in inputs, and basically that is being decided the moment you plant the seed that decides the train you need to take. And the potential. There's so much potential with a bit of funding, not a lot, like compared to what the input-driven, the chemical-driven industry is putting to work. If we put a bit of that into research, immense opportunities are possible from fixing iron deficiencies to vitamin A to all of these things that we try to fix with patented and technology fixes, not because I think because there's a huge conspiracy, but just because we have the mindset to do it that way. Instead of looking at, okay, how do we take what's there, improve that, and actually fix it in a fix it is not the right word, but actually serve it in a much more holistic, smarter, and much more profitable and tasty way. So I hope this left you inspired, interested, and maybe start a seed company. Why not? Please, if you do, come back to us because we would love to cover it on the podcast. And as always, looking forward to hearing you soon at another one. Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website, investinginregenerativeagriculture.com slash posts. If you like this episode, why not share it with a friend? And get in touch with us on social media, our website, or via the Spotify app and tell us what you liked most. And give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. That really, really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.