415 Kofi Boa - You can see soil health in a single season

African soils were once so alive, nobody called it regeneration, the land just gave. Dr. Kofi Boa, founder of the Center for No-Till Agriculture (CNTA) in Ghana, has spent decades proving they can give again.

Boa traces his journey from a burned family farm to one of Africa's most compelling soil restoration demonstration models and makes the case for a distinctly African approach to regeneration: grounded in what fallow land has always shown us, driven by farmers who need a full granary before they need a carbon credit, and proven through evidence you can walk through and see for yourself.

From community-led adoption to the tension between carbon credit schemes and food security, this is a grounded, honest account of what building a regenerative agriculture movement looks like from the inside, in the soil, with the farmers, over decades.

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Transcript

Welcome & Series Context

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome to the Organic Guy Podcast. This is uh your home of organic conversations. Uh I'm your host, The Organic Guy, and uh right around here we have conversations on how we can uh make our food system uh really get to work for us uh rather than against us. Today I'm uh deeply uh honored to be joined by one of Africa's uh uh true regenerative pioneers uh in the name of uh Dr. Kofi Bohr, who is uh also the founder of our Center for No-Till Agriculture in uh in Ghana. So uh Bohr has uh spent uh decades really trying to prove that uh uh African soils can actually thrive again through regeneration. Um he uh continues really to work in empowering thousands of farmers to rebuild their soils, uh restore forests, and uh get to grow more food while protecting the planet. For me personally, I've been uh really looking forward to this in the sense that um this is actually part of our special collaborative series that uh we're calling the African Regenerative Frontiers, which is uh being brought to you in collaboration uh with uh investing in regenerative agriculture and food uh podcast. Also supported by Rutico, which is uh a regenerative venture studio rooted here in uh in East Africa. Through this series, we really aim to amplify African voices of uh innovators, risk takers, and change makers. Uh and hopefully these conversations will bring sort of Africa ideas, wisdom, and resilience to the global regenerative agriculture. Dr. Bo, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. As I mentioned, you are really truly one of uh the pioneers who is practicing regenerative agriculture. So I'm looking forward uh to having that conversation. But uh before we get to like the weeds, or as they call it, just give us a little bit of uh like background on um your upbringing, like where did you grow up and um yeah, how was your upbringing like?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Oh, thank you very much. My name is Kofi Boa, and I call myself Farmer Kofi Boa in the local language, isukeni Kofiboa. I was born in Ghana in the village, in a small town here in the Ashanti region of Ghana, and I came, I I come from a farming family, and so I was raised up on the farm. And uh what brought me into the whole process of regenerative agriculture, I can say, was a tragedy. And that was when I was a small boy, my mother's cocoa farm got banned about age 12. And you know, that really was painful, was very bitter, and that really challenged me to the course of the journey. And I committed myself to it, gone through it, and now I've cleared a lot of headers, and now believe that I'm at a point where I have a lot to share with people.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yes, definitely you you have a lot because uh I've I've seen um some of your work you've done uh in terms of uh making people understand why regenerative is uh really helpful in their day-to-day agricultural activities. Um you mentioned there like a tragedy happened in terms of what led you into regenerative agriculture. So, what what was that?

SPEAKER_00 3:25

When I was 10, my father died. So I was left at home at 12 with my mother, and my mother had a very small cocoa farm. Somebody went and cleared a small piece of land just by the side to go to grow maize. He set fire to it. The fire entered into my mother's cocoa farm and brought it down completely. Life became very difficult. I mean, nothing to live on. And so, coming up in the village, growing up in that family, the only thing that I know was farming because I realized that farming was the only livelihood enterprise on earth, living in the village, living on the farm. And so I had committed myself to become a farmer, and so when this tragedy happened, I said to myself that I needed to fight it, I needed to make a change to ensure that it doesn't continue. And so that is how I set up on this journey. And it's been long, but finally we are there.

Defining Regenerative Agriculture In Africa

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yes, and as you said, finally we are there, because uh I think in the last few years, a lot more people are talking about regenerative agriculture. Uh, it's been a little bit more mainstream in terms of what people are talking about it. And uh, I think since we are going to mention the word regenerative agriculture a lot during this conversation, so you can just give the viewers a little bit of like how from even from an African context, like how would you define what regenerative agriculture is?

SPEAKER_00 5:02

It is all about the soil, and in the very simple terms, in African context, it is about us bringing back life to the soil because earlier on, I mean, our soils were very responsive. I mean, nobody was talking about regeneration because this the fruits were regenerating themselves naturally, but then we have gone through a lot of transformations. We got to know that no, there's certain things that we were doing were so bad, we needed to have that clean land preparation processes, and so we ruined ourselves, and now the word regeneration has come back, it has surfaced because it is the hope to bring back our soils to life.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah, you mentioned that um it is something a lot of um our farmers have been doing since like uh time in memorial. So, like you can just list like in terms of practices from an African context, what does these practices entail?

Core Principles: No-Till, Cover, Diversity

SPEAKER_00 6:08

The African believes strongly in the use of minimal inputs from outside because I mean we are not, so to say, so much endowed with resources. Most of our people, as a smallholder farmers, do not have those resources to be able to bring everything from everywhere, and so we have mostly been guided by recycling. And so, in these regenerative processes, all that is happening is that what is it that we do on the ground, on the flood, on the land, to ensure that we are able to recycle what is there, and if there is a need to bring anything from outside, it's very minimal because whatever you bring from outside comes to pay costs. So all these things then will help us to bring down the cost. But then we are talking about because what we are doing are defining our regenerative processes is ensuring that we're able to replicate the forest land, the fallow land conditions on the continuously cropped arable land, so that the arable land will forever be as productive or nearly productive as the fallow land. And that is why the African farmer, traditional African farmer, will always want to farm on, so to say, new land, new land in terms of land that has not been degraded. And so, in there, what we see is what are the unique characteristics there. There we see that if we minimize the degree of pulverization of the soil, we'll be getting close to that. And so the one of the biggest things to do is to reduce the way we till the land. And we go in there realizing that the soil in the fallow land is almost always covered with green material and then with dead material under. And so the cover is telling us something, it gives us a lot of clue to what is happening in there and making the soil so good. And so we say that as much as possible, we should ensure that the soil is covered to protect it. And more importantly, you go into a fallow land and you never see just one single plant species. It's laden with a lot of plant species, and therefore, we're saying that as much as possible, through the rotations, through the traditional African intercropping systems, let us perfect that so that we have diversity of plant species. And what we have realized is that diversity above ground corresponds to diversity below ground, not just for plants, but for all the ecosystem inhabitants. And so all the practices that we do in regenerative agriculture are governed by these three interlinked principles.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yes, and uh they absolutely make sense. So as you mentioned, if you look like towards the forests, all those things are uh very much well represented there. So, and then I'm wondering for you, I mean, you said when you witnessed like your the land of your parents really getting um yeah destroyed by fires, and then I'm wondering like at what point do you start to realize there's this thing called soil that maybe a lot of farmers are not taking a little bit seriously, and you are like, you know what? I think we should take care of our soils more seriously.

Discovering Soil Health Through Mulch

CNTA’s Show-Don’t-Tell Approach

SPEAKER_00 9:42

So you see, uh this thing happened very early in my life. Around that time, you see, when this tragedy happened, and definitely I said in the in the village, it is all about farming. There was nothing my mother could do but to continue farming. And on that piece of land, bringing it back, she started farming, but then she was still using the slash and bend method. Then I I wondered. So I will always just collect a piece of land from that farm and do the slash much sort of thing, ensure that the cover is there. Of course, my mother will be doing the multi-crop system and I'll be doing the multi-crop system. But what we I saw from that particular time was that because of the cover, when it rains for a day today, and it doesn't rain for two weeks, my crops will still be showing up nicely, smiling in your face. But then in the heat of the day, my mother's crop will be showing some signs of warten. And I realized that yes, there was something that was different. The moisture got retained. Now, everybody talks about even at that level, everybody was talking about life in the soil and the talking about earthworm, earthworm, earthworm. I could see earthworm under the mulch in my soils, but my mother never had. And so at the end of the season per unit of land basis, my yield was almost about four times that of my mother. And so I said, This is the way. Why I'm getting a better yield is that my soil is healthy, and these things that are happening on my farm translate into a healthy soil. And so, right from that early age, I got to realize that we need to support the health of the soil, and to do that, these practices that I we just mentioned come in neatly, and so I realized this from the very early stages, and I got committed to stay with that, and more importantly, to show it to people.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yes, and I think part of your work is uh you came up with the center of uh no-till. And um, the beauty about that, you created that center for that people can come and just try to see for themselves on what's the difference and um what they can be able to do with their farms. So, what what has been uh your observation? Because we know farmers can be a little bit rigid in terms of adopting new technology, but what are you telling them to convince them and and say, hey, uh you you need to take care of your soils a little bit this way?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Farmers are very skeptical, they are very much risk-avered in terms of farmers not joking with their enterprise, trying and error, no, and so they have to see it to believe it, and so the the the technique at the CNTA is that show it, don't tell it, let it stay, let the people see it. So, the very moment you walk to CNTA first, the center, there are several instances nobody will talk to you. It's whatever you see sits right in your face, especially farmers, people that have been farming, they see things and it's different in the heat of the day. The dry season, when every fur is worthy, they come and the degree of working is just very minimal or nothing. They see crops growing, and more importantly, side-by-side demonstrations and people wonder. So, the very moment you enter CNTA, you see evidence, you see benefits, and that shows right in your face. And one thing that we have to understand is that majority of the farmers that grow food for us in Africa have been the smallholder farmers. And one of the unique characteristics of smallholder farmers is that, sorry to say, we have limited education. And so we, most of us smallholder farmers, are not the people that you can give us strength media to go and read and make sense to apply on our farm or refer us to the internet to review, look at peer-reviewed papers. For us, we need to see it. So for the smallholder farmer, seeing is the truth, and once they see it and see it repeatedly, they go for it. It is it doesn't become any storytelling, it's a reality. And so CNT says that show it and stop telling tales, and that is what makes the difference.

Community Pathways To Adoption

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Definitely, because now they they have a reputable proof of what can actually also happen into their farm. So once they see it, then it makes um a little bit sense, and it's more like it explains to them and what's what's really happening in that in that um perspective. So that's really, really important. And then so I'm sure there are some other farmers who are a little bit skeptical in terms of uh adopting it to like you know, adopting some of the regenerative agriculture practices. What is the best approach to you know, sort of telling them, hey, maybe you should uh try this? Is it come visit us more often so that you can learn more about this technology? Or is what what goes through that process?

Scaling: Policy, Investment, Tools

SPEAKER_00 16:02

So, what what really happens is that uh we definitely want a lot more people to experience regenerative agriculture. And so the very first thing that we do is uh try to create the awareness within communities. And in doing that, I mean we we go through the community setup, like in a in a typical community, we'll identify maybe the community elders, the opinion leaders in there, and get them to appreciate that uh we want to dialogue, we want to dialogue with them on better ways of farming, and so we go through them for them to arrange for community sensitization. And when we have done the community sensitization, I mean, of course, we go in there and we have strategies, we have pictures, we have a lot of things to show. But then, in federal, we create an opportunity for what we call an exposure visit for the leaders of the community, and the leaders who, when they go back, can create an impact. So when these leaders are brought to the center to experience regenerative agriculture, they go back and because they are opinion leaders, a lot of people like them, they listen to them, they take inspiration from them. Then they go back and get the populace, the entire community to believe that what they came to tell us is true. We have seen it ourselves. And mind you, they are also farmers just like the community. And so, right from the beginning, we start the farmer-to-farmer extension, which is so important in this case. And so when they they get back, we arrange to get an opportunity to establish a learning plot so that within the community, we follow up with our technical backstopping to support the establishment of learning plots through which they go through processes. And fortunately, there have been several projects that have embraced this and support the exposure visit, bringing people to a place for exposure visit or for training for about a week or whatever. And when they go back, we follow up to set up these plots. And the good thing is that within a season or two, you'll be able to identify emerged champion farmers, people, one or two farmers who are so much dedicated and who are willing to do it for themselves and also show to other people. And those farmers, we deepen our engagement to build them up, and then they become the immediate point of contact for the farmers and for us in there. And so we build into this system a structure of community engagement, and then also getting people in the community to be agents of change.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Yes, so basically getting people who farmers already trust, so that when they go to them with this new information, they can sort of say, hey, okay, this is one of us, this kind of information is giving us is the right one. And then one of the challenges, at least uh people who come with new technologies in Africa, because we we see a lot of um agri tech coming in Africa in terms of they're going to give farmers uh applications or like phones they can use to take care of the problems they have agriculturally. And uh one of the assets I think we have as uh Africa is that we are being fed by small-scale farmers. So I'm trying to think from in terms of systems. Like what kind of systems do we need for us to be able to scale regenerative agriculture? Is it from an educational perspective? Is it investments? Is it like policy?

African Context Vs Global Carbon Focus

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah, in fact, you you you said it all. All these things come in neatly, but they shouldn't be be, I mean, we shouldn't focus on them in isolation. What really saddens me is that people are peddling lies, fears, and things about regenerative agriculture and saying that it takes decades to get results. And you see, in our democratic dispensation, when we have governments have just four years or whatever, hey, no, me, I want I I remember at one time I engaged with the Minister of Agriculture and he said, Hey, Kofiwa, get out. Me, I want to feed my people, I'm bringing the fertilizers. So, because physically you give the fertilizer to the farmer, he puts it there, and the farmer knows you have helped him. But this is this man, if he should be alive, now be burying his head in shame because that fertilizer that was given out, nothing came out because the soil moisture at that time was not good. There was drought, and the fertilizer never worked. And so you see, that alone tells us that it's not just the handouts that matter, but getting people to accept what goes in there to regenerate and conserve the soil. So we talk about regeneration and conservation. I mean, we our soils were good, they came with practices that have degraded our soils, and now we are doing whatever it takes to regenerate. But when we regenerate, all that we are telling ourselves is that we are not going to regenerate today, destroy it the next day, and think of regenerating the second day. We are going to regenerate and conserve. And so this is we even talk more and more about regenerative conservation agriculture. So the African believes in minimal inputs and not just we don't want it, but naturally at the smallholder farmer level, the resources are not there. But being very good stewards, there is so much that we can move, we can recycle. And so the key here is everything around us on the farm is valuable. And so, no, so zero waste. And so, in agriculture, when people are talking about Waste, the regenerative farmer erases the word waste from the dictionary because nothing is a waste. Look at the pills, the plantain pills, the cassava peels, the rice husk, they are not waste products. They are real inputs for the farmer. And that is where the African is different from the other people.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

It's great you say that because I was also trying to wonder in terms of when we're having conversation around regenerative agriculture, do we need to separate in terms of what's needed in an African context? And let's say, for example, from a European or an American context? Because as we mentioned, most of our small farmers are small scale. And for like first world countries, Europe and the US, they are mostly large scale. So should there be like a difference when it comes to discussing regenerative agriculture in these two spheres?

If Given $1B: Hubs, Tools, Research

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yes, you see the concepts are the same, principles, the same, but the approach practices very much different. Depending on the resources available to people and the environment in which they work, the emphasis should be different and it should reflect the reality on the ground. See, we're talking about regenerative agriculture and the power of regenerative agriculture in sequestering carbon. But now, when people are farming over there, the emphasis now is on carbon credit. What is it that people are doing to attract carbon credit and all that? So that to some extent you go deep into it and it overrides what the African farmer really wants out of that initiative. The African farmer, not that we, the African smallholder farmer or the African farmer does not appreciate being paid carbon credits. But first and foremost, our primary concern is being able to nurture the fertility to ensure that it sustains food production, sustainable food production to feed the family and the extra to sell. And now, as we employ regenerative practices, we are able to scale up. Then this emphasis on carbon credit should come as an added advantage and not the overriding factor in the African setup. Otherwise, what we are seeing becomes very bizarre because we have seen people coming in, buying large tracts of land, and just putting only trees. Trees are good, but we are looking at integrating trees in our smallholder farms so that we are in that agroforestry system. But when it is large, several thousands of acres of trees, because uh we come under the guise of moderating the environment, carbon credit, what are the people going to live on? We do not chew trees, we do not, it's not every tree that out there that I mean, and they are not even looking at fruit trees. And so these are some of the things. So at the global level, it looks like it's embracing everything, but then the specifics, the realities are that most of the time it's not in favor of the African smallholder farmer. And this is where those of us in Africa who know what to do should we speak up. But then speaking out means nothing if that is not backed by policy, because otherwise, there is very little that an a small organization can do.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yes, and I think that is uh very well said in terms of us also taking the responsibility in terms of what we are doing by ourselves, right? So, and I think that's why the work you're doing at uh CNTA is is very important in terms of you're actually building evidence in the ground, and that leads me to my next question, which was inspired by my colleague uh Kuhn, who was the uh investing in regenerative agriculture podcast. Is if you're to be given, let's say, one billion dollars, they're just this like money that has been sent into your account, and your goal is just to invest this money in uh region agriculture, where where would you be putting this money?

Vision For African Soils And Farmers

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Oh my brother, that would be great. Africa, we'll see a new face. To be honest with you, there is so much that is known and proven already in terms of regenerative agriculture. But how are farmers assessing this knowledge? How many even programs on radio and television on regenerative agriculture? This crucial subject, how many programs are there? I mean, you go to the social media and regenerative agriculture in Africa should be, I mean, if nothing at all, about 20% of what you see or hear, but nothing, a whole lot of other things. Perfect. But so what I would do is bring in the experience from CNTA, getting to appreciate the fact that everybody that comes there gets motivated and gets to understand that that is the way to go, I will first and foremost invest in the establishment of small centers, small learning plots within specific recommendation domain. I mean, generally we have practices cutting across, but within specific areas. For instance, people that are farming on the steep slope, people that are farming in very dry land areas, people that are farming in the humid areas, we all need regenerative agriculture. But the specific practices might be slightly different. And so uh I will find a way of identifying these niches and try to set up learning plots and use those plots. I mean, and whatever that will do there will be just realistic to the that recommendation domain and get farmers within the area to experience that it will build their knowledge, it will build their skills. Apart from this sentence, I will seriously also be interested in engaging in the promotion, development of affordable, relevant, appropriate tools. What I have realized is that across Africa now, most of our farmers are now the very aged one. The youth will prefer to stay out of the farm. And so, how much energy do these people left on the farm have to continue to produce food to feed you and I, the growing population? The human labor has become so inefficient. And so we are looking at the fusion of smallholder mechanized systems such that even if somebody is farming in Rwanda on the slopes, I mean, there could be a manual tool or even a small power tool that can help to increase the efficiency. And so I will look at identification and local fabrication of things like this. And then also the last thing, and the one of the things I'll do is look at a bit of adaptive research, look at the specific needs of the farming communities that have not yet been adequately addressed. Now we're talking about research. Research is going on in the universities and research centers, but I tell you, most of the research being done now are controlled by corporate bodies because a corporate body will come and say, I need this to, I need data to support the promotion of this product. And so everything that my colleague researcher is doing is geared towards that. And that might not be a felt need on the ground of the smallholder region art farmer who is looking for a bit of knowledge. And we are not like in Brazil where smallholder farmers having about 50 hectares could come together and say, we have collected money, this do this research for us. It's not here now, and so I will cause the establishment of realistic adaptive research to address the needs of the areas that are not touched. So these are some of the things that I will help him to do.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

And I think that's one of the unique things in the African continent because like every region is different. Now you have you can't come with a a blanket solution because it can't work, so it has to be site-specific and country specific so that all the different um yeah needs of that sector is is well covered. So um, I always like to look to the future. I mean, uh look out in terms of what could happen. So let's say we uh we are stretching out uh 10-20 years from now. What would be your dream for let's say like African soil African farmers in terms of adopting region agriculture? Where would we be?

What CNTA Demonstrates On The Ground

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Long ago, somebody from I think Kenya spoke to me and said, What would you want to see? I said I wanted to see the whole of Africa going regeneration. So for me, my dream 10-20 years from now is to see Africa work. I mean, we going around flying over and seeing healthy soils and meeting very happy, well-motivated farmers who are committed to ensuring sustainable food production systems. So, three things. I want to see African soils becoming healthy to support sustainable production, crops, livestock, whatever. And I want to see a very well-motivated group of farmers across Africa.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Yes, that's that's a really, really lofty dream, right there. And that's actually, I think, what every farmer always uh wants to in terms of they themselves are doing well, and I think that is like the main motivation on why farmers adopt a technology, right? They want to put, first of all, put money in their pockets, which obviously eventually makes them uh a little bit less naive, ultimately making them uh a little bit better. I think we mentioned about your work at uh CNA, and for just people who are knowing it for the first time, you can just tell us what it is about and some of the amazing work you are doing with it in the in Ghana.

How Ghana Frames Regeneration

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Thank you very much. The Center for No-Tale Agriculture has been set up to show the benefits, the evidence, and the processes of regenerative agriculture. Because we realize that there is so much that people are talking about, but where is the evidence? And that is where it becomes skeptical. And so, for us, we always want people to be sure that this is what we're talking about, and so at CNTA, it's all about showing the benefits, the evidence, and then the processes so that the technology can sell itself to farmers and the general public. And when you get to CNTA, you really see it. There are several instances when you are there conducting farmers around, you get telephone calls, you get people and straying away to take a call to call, and you think that that is distraction. No, what they are going through, what they have seen immediately, they call back home to tell people, please, we were going to ban Tuesday, stop it, I'm coming. We're going to do this, stop it, I'm coming. So CNTA transforms people in terms of their understanding and the commitment to regenerative agriculture.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yeah, that's that's really, really nice, and it's it's very much needed. So you can just paint up pictures for us, like guys who are looking from outside, especially in Ghana. How are people talking about regenerative agriculture? Because, for example, here in Kenya, in East Africa, most of the conversation is around agriculture, and um, yeah, that's where most of the NGOs and most people are talking about. But in Ghana, how are people approaching uh region?

Rapid Fire Insights

SPEAKER_00 35:45

There are several concepts, but what really happens is that regenerative conservation agriculture is the key principle of all those concepts. When you get down on the ground to do agroecology, you get to the community to do agroecology, what are you talking about? You are ensuring that people are able to improve the soil to build soil health. And the regenerative conservation agricultural practices are the ones that are supporting the creation of soil health. So all the other concepts, I call them regenerative conservation agriculture plus, plus something. People are talking about climate smart farming. What is it? You cannot just take a climate-resilient seed, a drought-resistant seed, go to the land and plant it in the dust. It will not grow. So what really is happening is that there are several of these concepts, a lot of them. They are all good, they're put together, but the functional principle of all these concepts is what we are talking about in terms of regenerative conservation agriculture.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Nice. I think that is um very well put. So thanks. Um we get towards the end of the conversation. I usually have uh a segment I call uh rapid fire questions, and um I've prepared like uh 10 questions for you, and the idea is just you give me quick answers to the question. So the first question is um, when you were young, what did you want to be when uh you grew up?

SPEAKER_00 37:16

A prosperous farmer, not just any pro, but a regenerative, prosperous farmer to be a role model to other people.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Nice. Um, so the second question what is the biggest myth people still believe about regenerative farming?

SPEAKER_00 37:32

That it takes decades to show a difference, which is not true, and that is what is keeping people away.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Uh, third question who has inspired you most in uh your regenerative journey?

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Howard G. Buffett of the Howard Buffett Foundation, who got committed to support the promotion of regenerative conservation agriculture across several countries in Africa among smallholder farmers.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Uh so the fourth question is um, what is one farming practice you wish every farmer would start today?

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Keep the soil covered either with living vegetation or dead vegetation.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Um, so the fifth question, what's one word that you would use to describe regional agriculture?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

One word, hope.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Okay, uh good one. Uh, sixth, uh, what is one thing about soil that still fascinates you today?

SPEAKER_00 38:25

The soil is very receptive to change. If you want to destroy it, it will sit down and allow you to destroy it. If you want to improve it, it will allow you to improve it. And for us who are looking at sustainable livelihood as farmers, improving the soil, it allows us, it gives us the opportunity to help bring it up. So the soil is very receptive to change.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

That's a really, really good perspective. So the seventh question is uh, what's one book that you would recommend every ag farmer read?

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Uh, David Montgomery's book titled Growing a Revolution, which is all about bringing ourselves back to life.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Okay. Uh, so the eighth question what's one piece of advice new regenerative agriculture farmers should ignore?

SPEAKER_00 39:19

They should ignore the that the bigger the better, because if people look at regenerative art plots, farms, and oh, it's too small for the smallhold. Regenerative agriculture is not restricted to smallholder farming. But then what we are saying is that you need to grow in twitch, you need to know what to do, and so as a new entrant, the that advice of people the bigger the better doesn't hold.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

That's that's a really good one. And um, the ninth question: what is uh one quote that uh has really stuck with you?

Where To Follow CNTA & Closing

SPEAKER_00 39:53

And it is from me myself. I say that you will never ever sound convincing enough to the smallholder farmer if you have nothing to show. If you have nothing to show, you will never ever sound convincing to the new regenerative art farmer.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Yeah, definitely. They always uh like some evidence. And uh the last question: if you are 18 years old, what advice could you give to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Live your life to save the soil, and your name will never be forgotten.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah, I think that is uh that is so true because uh soil is inevitably uh involved in our day-to-day lives. So yeah, thank you very much for agreeing to be part of this podcast. I really, really appreciate it. We are always looking for like different uh perspective on what's happening within the regenerative agriculture movement across the continent. So it was really, really good to have your perspective on that. If people want to follow your work, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Uh you go to www.centerfornot.org and you see a lot about us. We are there. There is so much about us. You can like us on Facebook, Instagram, and all that, and uh you get to see a lot.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Okay, yeah, I think that one uh is uh very much clear. Thank you very much for making the time again. Really, really appreciate it. Uh, till the next podcast, remember to be organic. Cheers.