420 Silke German – Creating the Tesla of beans by saving the milpa system

Mexico has thousands of bean varieties. Most people living in cities know four to five. Silke Gérman is on a mission to change that.

She is the founder of La Comandanta, a premium heirloom bean and salsa brand now in its twelfth year of connecting smallholder milpa farmers in central Mexico to retail shelves in Mexico City, the US, the UK, and Germany. Ancient Mexican bean varieties — grown for millennia in the traditional milpa polyculture system alongside corn and squash — are disappearing from fields and plates at the same time. Silke's answer is neither a seed bank nor a subsidy. It's packaging, storytelling, and making a purple runner bean from Puebla feel like something worth paying for. Along the way, La Comandanta has brought income back to communities that were emptying out, kept ancestral seeds in living soil rather than frozen storage, and built a value chain that pays farmers fairly — one bag of heirloom beans at a time.
 

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Transcript

Why Beans Are A Win Win

Koen van Seijen 0:00

There are very few things which are so positive win-win-win, like heirloom beans, or even beans in general. The more you eat them, the better. More protein, fibers, and health for you, more soil regenerated, and nitrogen fixed, less need for fertilizer, and on and on. Today we talk with a very successful marketing executive that took a dramatic decision. Not selling sugary cans anymore, but selling beans, creating a premium brand around Mexican heirloom beans and a famous and super powerful milk system, turning the poor man or woman food into something desirable and with value, and in the process working with over 450 farming families. We said it many times before in the show, and it might make you a bit uncomfortable, but we need to sell regenerative produce, and thus we need marketing experts to build regen brands. Brands that connect the farms to your plate, and yes, affordability is important. But if you find a premium market ready to pay fair prices, who are we to say no to that? If the only way today is to sell many beans, is to make a premium brand, the Tesla of the beans, then that's what needs to be done. Over time, at which scale, prices can come down. Because remember, if we don't farm these varieties regularly and eat them, they will disappear. Today we go deep into the worlds of beans, legumes, and brand building in the home of legumes, Mexico. Enjoy. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food Podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities, and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. So welcome to another episode. Today we're gonna talk a lot about beans and legumes, and we're gonna talk with the founder of Comandante, leading for 12 years already the bean revolution or the legume revolution from Mexico, but not just Mexico, but actually across the world. Welcome Silka.

Silke Gérman 1:56

Thank you very much for having me here.

Milpa System And Nitrogen Fixing

Koen van Seijen 1:58

It's a topic I didn't read the report yet, but there's a big legume report also in in Europe that came out, which I will read before this episode come out, definitely. It's a topic we don't talk about so much, and there's the hidden heroes of regeneration. There's what we were discussing in the pre-conversation, we have some beautiful beans by the way here on the table. This is one of the few things you cannot really eat enough of. The more you eat, the more you consume, the more you buy of properly produced legumes, the better it is for everyone. Which is there are very few of these win-win things in the food system. More living roots, of course, but this in this case it's very concrete. And there's a question we always like to ask at the beginning, just to understand who we have on the podcast. And in this case, we like to ask it like how come you spend most of your waking hours, most of your maybe also your sleeping hours, thinking about beans and acting around beans? What triggered you to roll into this fascinating but not easy world to figure out value chains and sales and ancient varieties, the seed side, of course, working with smaller farmers. But why beans? How did beans come into your life?

Silke Gérman 3:05

Well, uh in Mexico we talk about corn, a lot of about corn, about native corn, no? And that's beautiful and I think that's important. But on the other way, no one talks about or almost no one talks about beans, no? And that always surprised me because beans were domesticated almost like 8,000 years ago in Mesoamerican territory. Together with corn and squash, they built our food system and the traditional system that we used to have here in Mesoamerica also like 8,000 years ago, was the Milpa system, no? Which which is a polyculture system where you have corn, beans, squash, tomatoes, chili, and other kinds of herbs, no? And then together they support each other, no?

Koen van Seijen 4:08

Literally, right? Because the corn, just where people Google it, not now or Echo, yeah, it but milpa has a fascinating history and a fascinating abundance to it, but literally support because the corn stem often supports the climbing beans.

Silke Gérman 4:21

Exactly, and that's where I want to go because beans is essential for the milpa and for a project. Because why beans like give or fix in into the soil the nitrogen that makes corn really grow, no?

Koen van Seijen 4:38

And so that's interesting because you say we talk a lot in Mexico about corn, and corn needs beans to grow because it fixes it's a natural nitrogen fixer, otherwise, you have to bring that from other ways, and we all know where other nitrogen comes from, fossil fuel-based, very toxic in many ways. And so you talk about corn, traditional corn, indigenous corn, etc., without often talking about the beans. So when did that surprise lead to something practical?

Discovering Lost Bean Diversity

Silke Gérman 5:04

Because it's one thing of saying, ah, we shouldn't talk more about beans and maybe, I don't know, write a cookbook about it or something, but to start a bean selling company, that's quite a and and uh yes, uh when I discovered that well uh well how did I get that? In my personal history uh or story, I built a house like 15 years ago more or less, a very a country, very small countryside in Tlayacapan Morelos, which is a town, very small town in the center of Mexico. And when I get to the traditional markets, I started to notice that there are a lot more beans and diverse beans than the ones that I used to know in the cities. We used to know here in the cities in Mexico four or five varieties, no, the black, pinto, no beans. But when I get there to the traditional markets, there were like ones big, very big, like purple ones with pink dots, and other ones that were with yellow with I don't know, black stripes. And I was like, oh, what is this? No, this is psychodelia of beans, no? And I started to talk with all the these farmers, no, and to get absolutely in love of beans, no, of the beauty they are, no, that in their skin, no. And then uh while while I talked to them, I was like, well, why don't we use them? Why don't we eat them? And it's not because tastes bad or it's I don't know, whatever, no, it's because nobody knows them. Nobody knows that we are losing them, no? And farmers said, well, if nobody uh really buys to me, uh well then I cannot plant more, no?

Koen van Seijen 6:49

And I'm gonna grow the other four that people know, and then we are in serious danger of losing this diversity because if you don't plant, don't eat. They will they start maybe stay in a seed bank frozen and will ever or never be planted again. But if we consume them constantly, and so did then did you start bringing them from the markets from your country house to the city, or how did that trigger?

Silke Gérman 7:12

Yes. And I was like start uh start I was started thinking that I will do like a salsa company, no, which is the salsa macha, the comandanta's sauce that I that I right now sell a lot. But when I discovered all these beans and I said, well, why if we start making people or consumers aware that we still have these beans that is there? No, well, put that on the shelves again. No, I'm sure that they will be so surprised as I am right now in the cities, no? And that maybe like day after day we can really make a virtual circle, no, when that when you buy more, then they plant more, and if they plant more, then their milpas, their own lands get more fertile and they everybody wins, no, because we also want people to be aware that it's not a commodity. Beans are not a commodity, they are not like a side dish, no? They have fiber, they have protein, they are basic for our food system, they have a lot of antioxidants, and also uh we need also it's very important to know that these uh milpas are the how do you say the like long-term wealth for smallholder producers, no? So they are in the most better interest to not put chemicals on their own land, no? So it's very important to make them grow again there in their own lands, so uh also they have a proper way to live, no, and to do a profitable for profitable business with their own lands, no?

Milpa Versus Monoculture Results

Koen van Seijen 9:05

Yeah, it really is a virtuous cycle that if it turns faster and more, it helps. And do you see with indigenous beings or with the ones you found, do they grow better in a Milpa or they don't grow at all in a monoculture? Is there the danger if you create a lot of demand that somebody says, oh, let's do this mechanically on a or even just on a large monoculture scale to do the beautiful purple one with the yellow stripes, etc.? Or is it almost by definition grown in this polyculture way?

Silke Gérman 9:35

They can grow in both, but uh like the say the ayokote, the bean ayokote, which is the runner bean, that it's purple, no? Uh if you put it in a monoculture, then it gets uh the harvest is smaller, the seed is smaller. If you put it in a milpa, it's bigger, very big.

Koen van Seijen 9:54

You don't see it in people, but she's showing at least like uh a seven to ten centimeter size, which is an interesting bean.

Silke Gérman 10:00

Yes, these and the what we have in front are runner beans and they are from milpa, no?

Koen van Seijen 10:05

So you see the size, do you see the quality change as well? The flavor?

Silke Gérman 10:09

I think yes. I think yes. Not most of them, but uh some of them, if you see the difference between the monoculture and the polyculture, yes, the flavor really is different, of course. Yes.

Salsa As The Gateway Product

Koen van Seijen 10:22

Interesting. And do you see that with chefs as well? That start to because visually, of course, if they're bigger, it's easier to put them part of a plate. Of course, if you make a salsa not because you lose that visual piece. Is there the actually other question? When you discovered that and you started, what was your first step? You said I'm gonna do a salsa, and then also bringing these beans to the cities, and also the cities, of course, abroad, which is a great thought, but then how do you start? Like how did you start with that?

Silke Gérman 10:48

Well, first I know that the salsa that I was uh selling is a very super product, that the rotation is very good, and it today is the most uh selling product that we have today. But so this salsa machala comandanta opens the market uh in different uh whenever wherever you put it, no, whatever, thank God. No, so uh what I thought is that okay, we need a product that really works very well in terms of rotation and that the buyers of the different stores really want them.

Koen van Seijen 11:22

And then as a rotation not on the field, rotation in the shop, meaning a lot of people buy.

Silke Gérman 11:27

Sorry, in the shops, yes. And then we, as a second product, we present all these things, okay. And this salsa matcha supports our mission of our company, which is really preserving the heirloom beans of Mexico. And so uh the more salsa you buy, the more beans you preserve, no, and that in in the how do you say etiquette?

Koen van Seijen 11:51

Etiquette, yeah.

Silke Gérman 11:52

Uh the etiquette, no, the of the product of the salsa, then it it says that no, if you buy more of this salsa, then you can preserve more beans.

Koen van Seijen 12:02

But you chose the salsa as a sort of gateway, as an intro.

Silke Gérman 12:07

Flagship and gateway, exactly, as a gate to a present.

Koen van Seijen 12:10

Because if you would have gone first with your whole collection and catalogus, and I've seen them, they look absolutely amazing. Of all the beans, people were like, Oh, I don't know the purple one with the white stripes and the yellow thing, and there it's too complicated. You came in with something everybody knows, it tastes amazing, it supports all what you want to do, but it doesn't show all the colors because it can't. And then after shops saw that this is actually people are buying, you're like, Ah, look, I have other things that could be exactly because you need something that's it's not so much time after, no?

Silke Gérman 12:38

But main product that that buyers want is the salsa. And then we say, okay, but this is a different project, this is a social, this is uh an impact project, we are not a company that is not as other companies, so we need no sit this and the sentences. And well, it's very difficult because uh most of these kinds of beans are not uh in big volume, uh harv harvesting in big volume, no. And if you go here to City Market, which is like Central Market or something in the United States, it's like a big market. We need to change the rules with the buyers because they need to create how you say a coding barcodes specifically for every one of the kind of the beans, and then I must send them to the send them over to them. Okay, I have 50 boxes of this variety, 20 boxes of this, 12 boxes of this, and then they send me the the order of the how do you say the order bodies so I we changed like all the process or the typical process a typical product has no. And in terms of how did I did that? Well, first I went to the with the producers and in the towns, and well, first find the producers that still have this kind of beans, no?

Koen van Seijen 14:03

Yeah, because you are at the market, but that doesn't mean it's the producer, you have to go a few steps further.

Building Trust With Farmers

Silke Gérman 14:07

Well, most of the times there are the same person, uh uh but they don't have so much or enough, or they well, so it's it's very difficult. And I was like, I want to see everything, all the varieties. So I went to look for them, no? Where are they? Where? So all the pins that we have are mostly from the center of the country, uh, different states of the center of the country, also because it's better and it's faster to bring to the to the to the to Mexico City. And uh well, for when we first met them, it was very difficult for me as a woman and as a white woman, like to say, oh hello, well, I want to buy your beans in a fair price and everything. They was like, no.

Koen van Seijen 14:52

Are you joking?

Silke Gérman 14:53

What are you doing, or what kind of advantage do you want to take from me?

Koen van Seijen 14:57

No, how we can extract something. Exactly. They don't understand anything, no, and they simply so, because until then, most of the people that came and wanted something for sure were taking more than just the beans. Yeah.

Silke Gérman 15:11

So they don't trust white people from the city and also a woman. So that was very strange.

Koen van Seijen 15:18

But did you want the trust then? How do you cover?

Silke Gérman 15:21

I sorry. I first went with my uh gardener of my house, no, to please first go him and try to speak with him, explain the situation, and then I was going to introduce myself. No, so I was waiting in the car, no, uh making like waiting for the moment to present myself, and then it was it was a little bit easier. And then I said, okay, I will pay a fair price to you, but you must like promise me that you are going to still uh harvest this kind of beans, uh, and I will bring that to Mexico City, and then uh what we do in Mexico City is to clean them up to retire like all the dust and also the ones that are a little bit like cracked or something. So so to put it in in some boxes that look very premium. So our intention is that people really give the value again to these uh beans, well, the value they really deserve, because they are seeds that are pure, that are virgin, that has been passed through generation to generation from our ancestors. They are non-GMO or not non-treated seeds or whatever. So it's not because of the beauty of the beans itself, but it's also uh because of what it means to our culture, to our identity, and to our all our food system, no?

Making Beans Premium For Consumers

Koen van Seijen 17:17

And I I don't know, but I'm gonna ask the question thinking I know. At least I noticed in other places, Europe, etc. Beans now are there's a sort of a revive or a renaissance, but it until recently, or still in many places, it's considered the poor food. Exactly. Like it's not premium. Like when you said premium packaging, I had to think of that. Like it's definitely not presented as the centerpiece and as the most important thing to focus on. Well, it should be because of all the reasons you just mentioned. Has it been difficult, or what have you seen? No better question. Have you what has been successful to change that narrative and story about this is not pork food that we put only in a salsa or maybe on the side dish, or no, this is a centerpiece. What have you seen? What works there? I'm asking for other people that are working in the same space and thinking how do we elevate legumes more?

Silke Gérman 18:06

It's difficult to make them really integrate the beans more in their dairy diet. I what I have noticed is that you have to give them a lot of information on about the differences of they have ones from the other because they say, okay, what's the difference? No, or does they cook the same as the ones that I know? And yes, and then they when the we say is okay. We talk about the texture they have, the difference in texture, the difference in the kind of caldo.

Koen van Seijen 18:39

The feeling?

Silke Gérman 18:40

No, the liquid part, the liquid, no, the liquid part, the broth, exactly.

Koen van Seijen 18:44

The broth because they're you mention it a lot in the catalogus, actually. It makes really nice broth in this way, that way, yeah? So texture.

Silke Gérman 18:50

The texture, the broth, if they maintain their dots or not after cooked, if they are more uh like consistent and feeling, like in the stomach, or they are like more uh buttered buttery, or they are more like um how do you say simple or or I don't know how complex exactly. No, first of all, they need to know the differences, no? And what I always said is that when you cook them, then uh you like the bean like almost is talking to you, okay. It's better for me if you put it me in in frijoladas, it's better for me if you put me in tacos, it's better for me, no, big but you have to try to cook them first, no?

Koen van Seijen 19:33

Because if you see them like this, they're not gonna say anything until you cook them in different ways. You can experience so a bean is definitely not a bean, like there's so much diversity, and so it's about the way you cook if you preserve the spots, which could be interesting for a dish if you're a certain chef or not, maybe it doesn't matter because the texture, do they hold on, like and that's also fundamental, do they create a broth or not? And so that's a whole different way of talking about beans. I think. I mean, before that was obviously the case, but recent, oh yeah, beans.

Silke Gérman 20:03

Without really and and also what you said, no, here in Mexico also people thought that it's for poor people and whatever, and but I think that the salsa, the brand, la commandanta, the kind of channels where we uh distribute the disc which is like upper, middle to upper class, no, is the which really can pay a fair price of all the value chain, helps a lot, and also the image of the packaging and all this. And the people that already know salsa macha la commandanta this sauce, no, and they know it's a premium salsa and everything helps a lot also to the beans, no.

Rural Prosperity And Migration Reversal

Koen van Seijen 20:42

Yeah, but you need to do that. You need to realize it as a as an entrepreneur. Okay, we want to make this. I see that in pasta, for instance, make it a premium thing, not an afterthought. Not oh yeah, we can buy the 50 cent pasta, it's also fine. No, it's a fundamentally different product, and to elevate that, you need the right packaging, the communication, the language, the right wording, the right shops, the right channels, the right price. It needs to all fit.

Silke Gérman 21:05

I'm also a marketer, no?

Koen van Seijen 21:06

Yeah, so no, but that's important to mention. Many people are like, oh yeah, we just produce the beans and then they will sell themselves. There's a lot of work that goes into that. And then how important is it for like how many farmers do you work? How important is this on the land? Like now we are 12 years further. Like going back to what are some of the things you're most proud of, like in terms of ones that you save, but that are still being eaten and being grown and thus saved in terms of special ones.

Silke Gérman 21:31

I know the impact is incredible because, like, for example, we have we work with some farmers in San Mateo Osolco, which is a very little small town in Puebla. In Puebla, it's a state of Puebla, here in the center of Mexico. And uh most of the people there in all in the in that town is like have been migrated or gone to the United States in searching of better income, uh better opportunities, no, in terms of economical and uh so 80% of the town was migrated.

Koen van Seijen 22:07

In the last few decades, right?

Silke Gérman 22:09

Yes, exactly, exactly. Uh and then uh we realized that when one of the producers that were was there in the United States bring some money to put a machine that makes like tostadas, that that they transform the corn, the blue corn, which is the main uh crop. They grow there and they bring the money to put like this machinery of the tostadas. Then a lot of people return because they see that if they it put to work again all the the their, I don't know, the grandfather's milpas or the parents' milpas that was abandoned. And they when they said okay, this is something that's viable, economically viable for me, they prefer obviously to come and to stay in Mexico where they belong. So what they are they become like the it's not becoming like it's the shift of not of from being like the workforce of a food system that is like extracts lime, like exploits, than for being like an entrepreneur of this food system that's that like it's the guardian and uh of these kind of systems that really um put the I don't know the emphasis in getting like a market that it's good for everything.

Koen van Seijen 23:27

And then so that that started with the blue corn and then you started buying from them as well the beans, which of course helped the blue corn as well, and then you get an interesting we we buy them the blue corn because we don't only buy beans, it's the most important mission of the brand, but we also buy blue corn.

Silke Gérman 23:45

The way we buy these tostadas, we we sell these tostadas to a very big channel uh restaurant channel. How do you say it? Chain.

Koen van Seijen 23:53

Chain, sorry, chain, no, and which is a very discutable term, of course, the chain side, just like value chain. It's an interesting word coming from slavery, but yeah. It's a big chain, yeah.

Silke Gérman 24:04

And with that big client, then more people returned from the United States and started to activate their milpas, no? Which is so we sorry, we buy them as this blue corn, we buy the tostadas, and we buy the beans from this town, no? And everything is changing there. Incredible.

Koen van Seijen 24:21

Which is such an important point. Like we often don't talk about rural and countryside prosperity. Like we see it everywhere, people moving away to the city, to other countries to because farming no longer works or doesn't work or it's been very colonized or it's been commodified, or like all the issues we all know. Of course, climate is not helping, but with relative in very often with a few small interventions, and not easy, I'm not saying it's easy, but small, like a machine that turns the corn and a buyer that buys two, three things from a rotation or from a complex system, it very quickly turns around.

Silke Gérman 24:57

This is not like we need industrial interventions and build a massive factory that takes 10 years, which never works, but this is a very quick and that's why I think that regenerative agriculture puts like a lot of effort and money in uh in some soils that are already degradated, no, that are already broken, no? So they need, I think they need more money to get them alive again, no. So you need experts, you need consultants, you need a lot of things, no? But if you put like money or the capital or the investment maybe in these systems that are already alive, that have, I think we uh underestimated all the wisdom they have now from decades, no, so from thousands of years, no, they're already alive, then maybe the investment is cheaper for them. They really help not only in an ecological way but also in a social way for the farmers to the rural area areas of the world. And uh we still preserve our earlium seeds, our ancestral seeds, we still preserve our polycultural systems, our milpas systems, and that's something that you don't need to educate so much more to we obviously you need to protect, you need to uh how do you say to strengthen them. But I think the money must go maybe just to protect them, but also maybe to open the commercial part of this so that they can can really continue doing what they know how to do it best now.

Message To Investors On What Works

Koen van Seijen 26:35

I don't know if I absolutely and I think it's a crucial point. I'm saying that a lot in this interview, I know in this conversation, but it's an interesting point you make with where finance and money finds its way, and maybe sometimes we go to severely degraded places where a lot of this has to be or rediscovered or even figured out, like what can grow here. Like I know some places where let's say soil organic matter is really low, water situations are very desperate. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do that, but you're saying there are places as well where not so long ago these systems were very active, they're abandoned but can be revitalized quite quickly. It's quite quote unquote easy, not simple or easy, but it's like also focus on the way on the places where it makes sense now, and with very little intervention, a lot of stuff can grow really quickly. And the people have left relatively recently, it's not that they left a hundred years ago, like you can still go and okay, how does the milpa here work?

Speaker 2 27:30

Exactly.

Koen van Seijen 27:31

And people come back and they probably left ten years ago or five or even the potential and the transition is way faster.

Silke Gérman 27:36

It's faster and it's cheaper.

Koen van Seijen 27:38

And it's cheaper, so your money goes way further than it would go if you go to the worst desert you can possibly imagine. Okay, how are we gonna make trees grow here?

Speaker 2 27:46

Exactly.

Koen van Seijen 27:46

Which is it's something not to be underestimated for people. And is would that be your message? It's a natural bridge to a question we like to ask to investors. Let's say we do it in a theater. Here, I like to ask the question in a theoretical way. We do it in a theater in front of sorry, glucose.

Silke Gérman 28:01

I have diabetes, glucose. Sorry, yes.

Koen van Seijen 28:05

We do this in a theater in front of an audience of financially minded people, investors. What would be your main message to investors? Is one thing you would like them to remember? Of course, they have a full evening, we have beautiful pictures, beautiful meal, but people forget. Like when they're back at their desk on Monday morning, what would you like them to remember? If you can plant one seed in in, let's say, the minds of investors, what would that be?

Silke Gérman 28:27

I think that the strongest leading systems, I think, is uh I think that the strongest systems are not the monoculture systems, no, are not the industrial systems. I think the strongest are today is these polyculture systems that are alive today. So uh what I we want to do is not only to revital revitalize the ones that have been abandoned, I think it's super it's important, but it's uh first of all to do this relationship with the owners that are right now, like against everything, you know. Oh, they're still there, so that's they're still there because they are all, I don't know, uh super abandoned by the government in Mexico, by nobody is taking care of them, no, and they are like against everything, like doing their lands with without chemicals or almost no can no chemicals. So uh so it's it makes for me more sense to first go with them. And also they are like in a very bad economic situation. And if they are in a bad situation, they go to different uh sorry to tell, but uh works like narco traffic or a lot of things. So for me, and I always said this in La Commandanta, for me, like the best way to help Mexico is to help the traditional Mexican fields, no, and traditional farmers, no, because it has an impact not only in our food, in our nutrition, also in the biological things of our biodiversity, but also in terms of economical, social, and in security in the narcotraffic, in no all this kind of alternative, uh uh how do you say that they search for? But they have there no like all their wisdom and all their lands on their lands there.

Koen van Seijen 30:21

So it's it's a security discussion, not just food security, but uh actually countryside, thriving countryside. And I think it's a thing we don't discuss often. But there's a lot of discussion, of course, on on the safety side and on what you were mentioning as well, but also just on countrysides emptying, socially being very difficult for many, the ones that remain. Voting, we see a lot of interesting, at least in Europe, like far-right voting in countrysides. And a lot of that would be not resolved, but would be a lot easier if you have if we have a thriving countryside, socially, environmentally, and I don't see any other way than through agriculture that works. There's no other way we can have a thriving countryside.

International Demand And Farmer Insurance

Silke Gérman 31:03

It's not gonna be an AI data center, it's gonna be thriving farmers and exactly and it's being ignored by and since we live in this capitalism work and no it may you may like it or not, but it's the way we live today, no? So how can we make something that if we buy more, consumption more of this product, not to say product, no, then uh everything goes better for so you don't have to um exploit anything. It's very difficult to imagine that, no, because uh well yes, also what we I think we need to do is to give more information to consumers on uh because we today value, I don't know, the if it's uh cheap, if it's more volume, if it's available and whatever, no. But I think we have to change the equation and bring value to other kinds of things like biodiversity, as like for health exactly flavor. And I think we need to make visible, visible all the invisible, no, and like behind all our food system, no, which is okay, what about these crops? If you don't buy them, then we like get lost they disappear, no? They don't know that. They don't know that meal pass, maybe in the cities, they don't know that meal pass is it's like a balance auto uh auto-balance, I don't know, system or something like that, no? So I think that we need to bring more information to the cities, to the ones that have the money to really buy them in a price that is fair. And every and so so big socioeconomic so sorry, high social socioeconomic level buys this kind of food that they know the value they have, and then the money goes directly to these people that has all the wisdom and they still do does what they better know.

Koen van Seijen 33:03

And how do you deal with them when somebody says ah you're only growing for the high effluent, not high intelligence, definitely, but the high effluent that can afford this? Do you say, yeah, but we need to start there and then we go we need to be big enough to start with the Tesla model with all the issues now, they started with a very expensive electric car, showed that was possible and work their way down. And now there's an industry. I mean you look here in Mexico. All these electric cars wouldn't have been there without that level and without that work.

Silke Gérman 33:32

There's no other way to do it. Well, I don't know, here in Mexico, no? You first have to demonstrate that paying a fair, really fair price, it's possible and that it uh and that people in these high levels can are are willing to pay for that, no, for that kind of project.

Koen van Seijen 33:50

And I correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that on a yearly budget for your kitchen budget, your grocery budget, what you spend, if you buy really high quality beans or not high quality beans, is gonna be a huge difference at the difference at the end of the year because legumes normally are not the biggest spent. It might be animal protein or alcohol or whatever, that's where we spend a lot of money. I don't think legumes are such a big percentage of your so even if you if the percentage difference between what you're selling and what the four or five you can buy in the supermarket, it might be more, but at the end of the year it's gonna be a small amount extra.

Silke Gérman 34:30

But it depends on a perception of people, no? This is the basic knowledge.

Koen van Seijen 34:35

The same with basic pasta and expensive paper. Oh my god, it's three times the price. Yeah, but at the end of the day.

Silke Gérman 34:40

No, that's marketing, obviously. It depends on because if you said okay, no, okay, I I'm gonna spend, I don't know, 150 pesos for five hundred grams. It's expensive, it's very expensive.

Koen van Seijen 34:52

What's the normal? There's no normal, but just to give an idea.

Silke Gérman 34:54

I don't know, like the normal maybe could be like 30 pesos more or something. So it's five times.

Koen van Seijen 35:00

So if you say five times, you think, oh my god.

Silke Gérman 35:01

Okay, but if you say But okay, but if you if I said okay, this is not this brings all this impact, and this is uh something that the what I always say that these beans are like jewels, no? And that's why I'm doing these jewels selling tools. Made from beans, yeah. Made from beans, not to also trying to them to see the value of a really pure virgin uh seed, no? And it has all the the miracle of life is inside of it, no? And it's incredible that we really not see it like oh no, it's whatever, no, it's I don't know, whatever no.

Koen van Seijen 35:35

Garbage, yeah. We just it's we don't think about it. And then when did the step come to start selling outside Mexico? And in Germany, in the US?

Silke Gérman 35:45

They uh they come to us. I think they were like trying to find in the internet like urloon beans and all these things, and in Mexico we are like the we are the only ones that are like putting so much focus on this, on beans. And they came to us and it's it's very unfortunate that we uh in Mexico don't buy so much or we don't value so much beans right now than in other parts of the world, like in the United States we sell, and also in the UK and in Germany. We sell, we are like the their principal uh how do you say supplier supplier for primary beans and Herloop beans of UK and they buy us a lot of varieties and they have come here to Mexico, go to see our producers, talk to them to producers, like understand like all the value chain and all these things, and it has been a very interesting uh experience because they were like are willing to pay 15% more of the cost of the bean, like the farm gate price, uh only to have an insurance for farmers if they lose their harvest like in the because of climate or like uncertainty like uh conditions. And that's something that we have been doing with these foreigner like buyers.

Koen van Seijen 37:44

Yeah, it's interesting how in very often these kind of not innovations but brands are more recognized, recognized outside their territory than inside. You've seen that I think with one of the main earliest natural wine growers, a woman in Sicily, that I think still sells 95% outside Italy and was recognized more in New York than she ever was in Milan, Ariano Capinti. I don't know if that's shifted now, but you see that often, like a lot of the organic stuff is transported elsewhere because there are markets that are more not developed, but more developed around that and more, and but that's the case. Beans travel really well. I think the the carbon footprint of shipping beans is not that high because they're dry, they're not a lot of water, you can ship them easily. And yeah, as we said, you need the markets to flow, you need the money and revenue to come in before you can start talking, okay, how do we do a big campaign in Mexico City to make sure that beans are no longer poor food? For sure you can find an amazing agency around here to do that, but in order to do that, you need the money.

If You Had A Billion Dollars

Silke Gérman 38:43

Yes, but I think that it's also again, no, it's they have maybe in the United States and all these countries, they have a little bit more information about what is biodiversity, why we are losing everything, we need to put like more money there and these kind of things, no, uh that here maybe here in Mexico, no?

Koen van Seijen 39:03

I don't know. Again, there, I think it's communication and marketing as well. And for sure, if you live in a large industrialized agriculture country, the effects are stronger maybe on the daily life, like you're less exposed to it. But it's interesting that yeah, that you're you're it's almost easier to sell the beans outside than and if we switch the conversation or switch the table, so you're we're not talking to the investors, but actually you become one. Uh and I'm not saying anybody should have this kind of concentrated wealth, but let's say tomorrow morning you wake up and you have a billion US dollars to put to work, and it's a crazy amount, but it also means like you don't have a limit basically of financial resources. What would you focus on? I'm not looking for exact amounts, I'm looking for what would be your main focus areas if money is not an issue. What would you prioritize? What would be big buckets, big things that you would do if you had a billion dollars?

Silke Gérman 39:57

Well, the first thing I will do, I think, is rethink how we understand agriculture, no, because agriculture is not just another economic sector, no? It's infrastructure, it's life infrastructure, no, it's uh so taking that into consideration. I don't know, if I I have a billion dollars, I would focus on protecting, as I said, and strengthening this kind of living cultural systems that are already working, and that they are still being cultivated without a heavy chemical dependency dependency. I think we are making a big mistake in focusing only on regenerating what we have already degraded.

Koen van Seijen 40:37

No, uh why is that, do you think? Is that a mental thing? We like to go to the most difficult quote unquote place because that's where I I don't know, but yes, well, the other stuff, oh, that's still working, so we don't they don't need our help or something?

Silke Gérman 40:49

Exactly. I think that they are thinking again in a more industrial farming, still are thinking in a more industrial farming like big lands, big hectares of regenerative monoculture, is the uh agriculture. Cover crops, exactly the cover crops and a lot of these things, but uh they see that maybe they have not uh thought about doing this uh relationship with the small scale farmer producers, no? But if you like do this relationship with I don't know, thousands of or millions of uh far this kind of farmers, then uh it's faster and it's cheaper, no, as I said, no?

Koen van Seijen 41:29

Yeah, but not easy, you but it you need like some kind of translator or processing like you do basically, because if you tell to uh an investor, oh you have to interact with 10,000 smaller farmers who are like, yeah, but that's but you need an interface, you need a brand.

Silke Gérman 41:47

So I will like do what I will do is allocate this capital towards brands, distribution, consumer education, and traceability, no? I like or everything else that makes increase the consumption or the demand that will increase biodiversity, no? So I think uh that's what I will do, like also create this market. Not only make this relationship with them, but create the market, create the communication, create like all this transportation, everything, no? But the this the with the farmers that are still producing but don't know where to but to sell them, no?

Redefining Value And Making It Visible

Koen van Seijen 42:25

Because if they sell to the normal quote unquote markets, they become part of the commodities and get the 30 cents or whatever, they get one-fifth of the price or less. And of course they're stopping because they're quitting because it doesn't make sense. Exactly. So focus on brands, brand awareness, communication, and of course then processing and transport, logistics, which all follows. But if you can sell the salsa for an okay price, then you can start paying for exactly. It pulls everybody with it, basically. Which is interesting because we don't talk very often about brands in the region. Like it's such an important piece. Like we have to sell this to someone, and a brand is a really good communication carrier, like you can communicate a lot with the etiquette and with how you communicate, what you say, colors and stuff.

Silke Gérman 43:07

It's like the main part of the capitalism, the brands, no. So it's uh it's an essential part of trying to turn like everything on the other side, no, not another different like interesting.

Koen van Seijen 43:19

Now we do a few left and right in in this podcast, obviously, around okay, but how we're gonna sell this? How do we gonna actually get this to plates of people that people choose in a supermarket or in wherever they choose? You're like, okay, not this one, but I'm checking this one, and that becomes a constant loop. And then another question we love to ask if you had a so we don't you don't have the fund anymore, I'm sorry, but now you have potentially more power, actually, or more influence, which is the question we like to ask around the magic wand. So if you have the magic power to change one thing, but only one thing. So tomorrow morning we wake up and you have changed something, which could be anything. This is the most open question there is, could be subsidies, could be brands, it could be global consciousness, it could be better flavor, but only one thing. What would that be?

Silke Gérman 44:06

I definitely would change the way we define value in our food system. No, I think that if uh well I think as I said, tell the full story behind this and that people really put value in the parts that we really need urgently to put really focus. And make I don't know how, but make people really get worried about their the decisions that they are taking over day by day and really be make them conscious uh about the impact they are telling. But this is only a thing, a marketing thing about the value of the product, it's a value thing, no? It's where do I put the value? So if I can put it in the right places, that would be the best thing I can do, no?

Koen van Seijen 44:56

I'm laughing because I think it was Philip Lauders, but I don't remember somebody's gonna correct me. But somebody Gave an answer to that question if people in the super like a similar answer, like if people in the supermarket or in the place where they buy could see behind the shelf of how that bean or milk or whatever was grown. So if you take one, you like actually see the farming system, and if you look at the other one, you like a look through.

Speaker 2 45:18

Yes.

Koen van Seijen 45:18

Which we can do, I think, with how with the right uh let's say headsets with creativity. Yes, exactly. But it's such a if you would see there, even I'm really interested if that would change your you see a price difference between the two. Like a true, almost true price. And but if you then see, okay, these beans come from quite a destructive system, they're still beans, they're good, but and these beans don't. Do you care then still as much about the price? Or if you see the coffee coming from X system versus or the meat, let alone the meat. Like how much more easier would it be for average people that don't have, not average, ordinary people that don't have all the time in the world to go deep. But if you they could just see that, would that switch their buying behavior? Because that's what we want. We want people to not choose this one and choose this one and keep choosing that.

Selling Hope Instead Of Guilt

Silke Gérman 46:01

I think that we are going to be more aware because everything is uh like collapsing. We don't want to see that, but it's or we close ourselves and don't do it. It's happening exactly. But we are going to be more aware unfortunately, the more like things get worse, no, in the climate change and everything. So I think the path goes that way, and we need to step into into this trend, no, or I don't know how to say it's not a trend, it's movement exactly. Um because right now, uh as we all know, no, food is not cheap. Someone or something always pays the real cost. So uh we need to pay to to select very good where I'm going to allocate or put my money, and the few the future of food depends on what we choose to value today, no?

Koen van Seijen 46:52

And it's basically what you were saying before, it's making the invisible visible. I think most people don't see their food choices, what they know the food system does a lot of things, bad things, extracted, but they don't see how a choice of beans makes an enormous difference on the ground. Like masses, like with a few cents more. Like it's not that we're talking about okay, you need to donate ten thousand dollars or something. No, you buy a different package of beans, and you lead to almost which is a very empowering thing. Like, actually, a lot of people can be part of this without ever becoming an investor, without ever becoming a farmer, or ever becoming like you from your couch and from your kitchen can actually almost lead to a food revolution, which is a big word to use here, but which is an interesting empowering.

Silke Gérman 47:35

That's why la commandanta, it's a food revolution. It's like what our slogan is the cooker revolution. La commandant kook revolution. It's an invitation, yeah, and we are also trying to cook the revolution, no. So yes, we definitely believe in that. But something that is very real is that nobody wants to know sad stories. Nobody wants, nobody buys sad stories.

Koen van Seijen 48:04

A couple apocalypse stories and this is all about okay. The marketers coming in.

Silke Gérman 48:08

Nobody wants to hear that, and it would be very easy if that would be like the if we can walk that way, no.

Koen van Seijen 48:17

But the world would have already changed if we get triggered by sad stories. We've had enough over the last decades or the last few centuries. Yes, it doesn't make us move.

Silke Gérman 48:26

Yes, but so as always, no, uh as I'm an advertiser, and our my bosses used to say to me, say the same but in a positive way.

unknown 48:36

No.

Silke Gérman 48:37

So that's what I'm trying. Let's talk about biodiverse, let's talk about changing lives in the rural areas, let's talk about nutrition, let's talk about this. Is a jewelry, we are losing them, but you can make the difference, no? So that's that's why we're trying to do that.

Koen van Seijen 48:54

Which is interesting for versus the new the news industry where negativity and scandals and stuff sell, like people click on that. But you're very true in the marketing world and the communication world, we are constantly aspiring to look, you buy this car and your life will change, and which obviously is not the case, but like we are this perfume and suddenly and or this clothes, like we're very good at painting pictures that people want to be part of, and then they join the brand because they buy something, and but we haven't really used that power in the regen or in the agroecology regenerative movement that much. We've mostly been shaming, like you need to stop buying this from there, you need to do that, and uh without making it like look, you can be part of this positively. I think Martin Reiter said it on brands we had on a few weeks ago. We don't we haven't given people a lot of ways of participating, like in private. It's he said, What is it? You can buy a Tesla electric car and a heat pump.

Silke Gérman 49:51

Exactly. That's pretty much it. That's the thing because everybody is depressed. Okay, what can I do? The world is it's very it's very not it's nothing I can do. No, there's a lot you can do, no? If we really put the focus on the on this small-scale holder, the producers and farming and this kind of uh traditional farming. There's a lot you can do. It's not like there's so big regenerative agriculture industries there. I don't know how I'm going to like uh vinculate to that. No, it's I think it's an and it has to do more with our identity with Mexico, with no, with who we are.

From PepsiCo To Beans After Diabetes

Koen van Seijen 50:31

And it's not to be naive, of course, we're not saying if your single purchase of beans is not gonna be revolutionary, but first of all, you will tell other people if you're very happy about it, which because you want to share your identity, that's how we do that. We show off our phone, we show off our water bottle, we show off our laptop. Bloody Apple became the logo of everything. So that's one, and if many people do it, and I think, and then we talk about accessibility, etc., but there are many people that easily could afford to switch their diet quite significantly to the region side and are not doing it. If all of those people around here, there are 12 million people, probably more, if the people that could easily afford this, I'm not saying everyone, would switch their beans, your life would be completely different, and the life in Central Mexico would be completely different. And they can, and they wouldn't even notice at the end of the year. There won't be a fundamental difference in their budget or something because they switch their beans. So there's another friend of the show, Christian, who likes to ask of juntas, especially in bigger rooms with impact investors, okay, who buys organic hair and who buys from agroecological farms? All of you should know, and then a few hands go up, but not so many. Like, all of you should know, and all of you easily can fund these things, not even through your investment, just through your buying. If we don't do it, like who is gonna do this? And that actually comes to the last question, and we always ask more questions afterward. But let's see if it's the last. And I think you already partly mentioned it, but maybe you have another uh answer to it. Where do you think different? We love to ask a question, John Kempf asked, like, where do you what do you believe to be true in the regenerative agriculture world that others don't? So, in let's say our bubble of legumes and rotations and milpas and soil and nutrition, where are you different? If you go to conferences here, if you go to gatherings, where do you think different than the other people, let's say, in the regenerative movement in Mexico?

Silke Gérman 52:19

Well, yes, as I said, uh in in protecting these small farmers, in also in taking a lot of the like giving the importance again to the heirloom seeds, no. I think it's also something that uh no but nobody understands it like very well. No, what are the differences between the hybrid ones and the MGMO, non-GMO, and the uh heirloom, no? So I I think uh yes, also we need to be to put more focus and integrate that in all the regenerative agriculture like the method, no? And also, I'm not sure if I'm understanding good.

Koen van Seijen 53:20

I think what you where you think fundamentally different from many other in the region space is that we have to sell this and market it, and we need to tell a very flashy, not flashy, aspiring story that people want to be part of, not to put the answer in. But I think there many people, oh yeah, but selling is should we do that? There are no, we don't shouldn't shout about it too much, and we shouldn't make packaging that is so shiny that it seems like selling a perfume or something, and you're saying, no, we should.

Silke Gérman 53:45

Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes. We have to because for me, I don't know if it maybe if it's because I'm a marketer, but I think there's not another way, no, like faster, and because we are inserted in this like our capitalism. And I said, Well, for many people is that I know. So you want to help the poor farmers in the rural areas, but you are selling in city marketing, no, which is like very high-end, no. And what's the problem? The problem is that we don't vinculate like one world with the other one, and one part with the other, and we don't do these uh virtual uh circles because we set them apart. And we need to think in a bigger system, in a involv involucrate and or make people participate in the movement and make everything everybody help in the same or by in the same objective, no?

Koen van Seijen 54:40

But that's it, yes, and many people when they hear the word marketer or something, they go like, ooh, especially in the deep regeneration spaces, but I think it's a very important that's why we're here, a message, not because beans are not only because beans are important, but also because you found a way of selling them and bringing that money back to the land. Exactly. We need way more of that. Like we need 20 legume brands around the world that are looking at that. We need 50 brands around other stuff. There's a big shortage of people like you that have a really experienced marketing background and that set up very successful, regeneratively focused brands. And so that's a message, that's why we keep repeating that. We need successful consumer-facing explanation, storytelling, narrative, but it has to look good, it has to taste amazing, it has to work in that sense, and people have to buy it. And otherwise, yeah, we're just playing here, and it's not gonna lead to anything.

Closing Thoughts And Listener Callouts

Silke Gérman 55:36

Exactly. Which I think is a perfect sorry, I want to tell you about this thing kind of things. I think, well, I get to this, I don't know, theory or how do you say this theory of change, yeah. Theory of changes, maybe because I well, I first studied yes, uh, advertisement and marketing, and I started working in very big advertisement agencies like BBDO and Walter Thompson and all these things, and I was like with very successful uh contracts clients contract clients and everything. And when I were like I was like uh the vice president of strategic planning in BBDO in Mexico, and I was managing like all the PepsiCo and other brand brands that are like this kind of industrial food and all these kind of things, snacks and drinks. And one day I get got diagnosed with diabetes, type 1 diabetes, no, and one day to another, because anybody in my family has it, no? And then I started to understand okay, nutrition, food, and what am I doing? And I'm selling more this kind of sodas, and I'm selling more all these kinds of things, no? And I said, no, I can't do this anymore. No, and so I asked myself, what do I know how to do? Okay, I know how to do marketing, I know how to build brands, I know how to give value to some things that don't have any value. So I that's when I sit down and started to think, okay, I'm gonna create now my own brand, one that makes me feel proud and that really reflect reflects all the values that I really have as a person, that all the things that I think must be uh maintained or preserved and everything. And then born, no, or was was born. And I think that uh most of the people has life-changing events that really make them like look to another place and start trying to get advantageous of the things that they know they have, no, and really puts some kind of good impact in whatever they can know. So if anybody I don't know, maybe if I can help anybody, any brand or any project that is still on this or was is uh trying to figure out how to bring this some value or whatever, maybe maybe I don't know, I can help on that, no? As as well as maybe other people can help me in other things that I'm not an expert, no, and I think that that's the also the good cycle cycle that we must build right now between persons, no, we within people.

Koen van Seijen 58:23

And what would be your message to other do you speak to other maybe ex-colleagues or people that are good as well at building brands and communicating, creating value or making people see value where others don't? We need more of those in the regenerative space desperately. Do you what would be your message to them if you speak to a conference or like a full room of ex-colleagues, etc., or maybe you speak to some people, other people that are setting up brands now? What is your what would be your message?

Silke Gérman 58:51

That I think that we have to do not fight against what we already have, but take advantage of your how do you say your strengths. Your strengths, and with that in in mind, try to build something that really has a good impact, no? How to also to get very in love of something that that will give you like the fuel of and the creativity and everything that you need to make them will be a good lounge, lounge.

Koen van Seijen 59:31

You have a good lounge, and also that you can keep going because it's not easy.

Silke Gérman 59:34

I mean exactly. No, of course, it has not been.

Koen van Seijen 59:38

So it's not a walk in the park.

Silke Gérman 59:39

Exactly.

Koen van Seijen 59:40

And but you have shown that it's possible. I think many people like, oh, but it would there be a market for whatever I'm coming up with there'd be and none of this is easy, but there are consumers that want to pay. There are very interesting growing practices that are still around.

Silke Gérman 59:54

There are products that we use every day or every other day, and they all need to be reinvented or all need to be redone from the shampoo to candles to I'm just looking what we're seeing around to what we eat, to the coffee, to the and it's not that I was I have everything like solved because I was a marketer, because right now I have also to know a lot about operations, about production, about farming, about a lot of other things.

Koen van Seijen 1:00:19

International logistics.

Silke Gérman 1:00:21

Yeah, yes, exactly. No, so you keep obviously learning, but you have to take something that is your strength as there as your main, I don't know, like an anchor, no, and learn the other things, no?

Koen van Seijen 1:00:36

I think it's a perfect way to wrap up. Thank you so much, Silka, for having us for the work you do and coming on here to uh to talk about it.

Silke Gérman 1:00:43

Yeah, I think to you, and thank you for the space. Thank you for letting me express everything that I want to share with your audience, and we'll have a good luck.

Koen van Seijen 1:00:51

Thank you. We'll put all the links below and we'll put some amazing pictures of of the beans as well.

Silke Gérman 1:00:56

Thank you very much.

How To Support The Show

Koen van Seijen 1:01:04

So, what do you think? Did it make you uncomfortable? Did it trigger something? Our talks about affordability, premium branding, values, creating markets, because that's what we need to do. We cannot just focus only on the farming practices, the milk systems, the no-till, companion crops, syntropic agroforestry, and all of that, and then assume that magically this stuff gets sold for good prices. We need a lot more silkers in this world that really spend a lot of time and energy in designing packaging, in figuring out the values, what to communicate, the words, the narratives. A lot of the software, I'm doing air quotes in a way software work around this space. It's not soft at all. It's fundamental because he is now supporting 450 families and more by making beans more valuable, basically creating intangible, of course, they're healthier, of course, they're nicer looking, they're computiful as we saw. But that's mostly not perceived by the end consumer until you with marketing and communication actually create that value and people start to value beans, which is hilarious to think about because it is mostly the one thing you never think about or you never consider, and you definitely don't consider paying for extra. If she managed to do that, which is super inspirational, I'm very curious what you think of this. If other brands, if other people that are building this with a clear marketing focus, with a clear sales and margin focus, I would love to learn more about that. Please send it over, send your feedback as well. The best way is through a website or one of the social media channels. And as always, thank you for listening and hope to see you at the next one. Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website, investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/slash posts. If you like this episode, why not share it with a friend? And get in touch with us on social media, our website, or via the Spotify app. And tell us what you like the most. And give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. That really, really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.