419 Max Küsters - Why every pioneering regen farm should sell ecosystem services

Gut & Bösel in Alt Madlitz, Brandenburg is one of the largest regenerative farms in Europe — 3,000 hectares of arable land and forestry on some of the sandiest, driest soils in Germany. For years, farmer Benedikt Bösel and his team have been experimenting with agroforestry, holistic grazing, and composting at scale, with no blueprint and no neighbours to learn from. That experimentation costs money, takes time, and generates knowledge that other farmers benefit from for free.

So they set up a foundation next to the farm to do the research properly — 10,000 soil samples, four university partners, climate sensors across 300 hectares, and a carbon credit programme that is already generating revenue. Max Küsters, managing director at Gut & Bösel, talks with Koen about how regenerative farms can start turning their hard-won data and ecosystem restoration work into actual income streams — through carbon markets, biodiversity credits, and eventually the insurance industry, which is slowly waking up to the fact that healthy soil is cheaper than flood damage.

This podcast is part of the AI 4 Soil Health project which aims to help farmers and policy makers by providing new tools powered by AI to monitor and predict soil health across Europe. For more information visit ai4soilhealth.eu.

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Transcript

Max Küsters

Koen van Seijen 0:00

Why every pioneering region farm should start a foundation? You probably heard this story before. Pioneering region farmer is trying a lot of new practices on the land, trying to figure out what works and what doesn't, because there are no blueprints in their area. No one or very few are trying what they're trying to do, which leads to a lot of frustrations. This is why one of the most innovative region farms in Europe, and one of the biggest, set up a foundation next to their productive farm to do all the research and collect as much data as possible, work with all the different universities that are interested in this kind of research, all to start figuring out what works in their context and almost more importantly, and probably easier, what doesn't work. Learning how to transition a massive ecological industrial farm, which means organic, but with tilling, cover crops, not everywhere, etc., to a more regenerative practice is no easy feat. Why should a single farmer on very small margins do all this research and development to figure out what works in their context and then share it with their neighbors and their neighbor neighbors? And when you have all this data, how do you turn it into something you can actually sell? Carbon credits, anyone? We talk about the limitations of research, right? It should happen on the actual working farms in transition and the challenges that that brings. We talk about the lack of interest and the complete lack of competence for most people outside farming when it comes to the world of farming, biology, real challenges of the countryside. We talk about water cycles and what the role of the insurance industry that is still not really waking up and paying attention to all the root causes of the massive insurance claims that they're facing when floods come. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food Podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities, and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. AI for Soil Health is funded by the European Union and has received funds from the UK Research and Innovation under the UK government Horizon Europe Funding Guarantee. For more information, visit aiforsoilhealth.eu or find the link below. Welcome to another episode. Today with the managing director at Gutenbozo. Welcome, Max.

Max Küster 2:13

Hey, hey Kurt. Nice to meet you here.

Koen van Seijen 2:16

And it's always nice to show that a lot of these farms we visit and we we cover, and of course we've covered Gutenbozo quite a few times, but always with with Benedict, and this is of course a much bigger team, and there's so much more happening. Because if it was only one person, none of this would be possible. And when we were at your place and Kutenbozo, when was it, last May or something? We spent quite a bit of time together and and we started planning for for this episode. So I'm very happy to dive into this the role of science and research and and what these kind of super experimental but also commercial farms are doing in terms of RD. Basically, it's research and development. It keeps coming up in in our conversations in general, like why are we putting all this research and development on these farmers? Because they are doing that at the moment. They're figuring out what what works in their context and then can we replicate? And that's a struggle because it's a struggle with money, that's a struggle with resources that shouldn't be done by a farmer on small margins. So I'm very happy to explore a lot of those things, the role of technology. I may I know you make digital twins and all kinds of other uh exciting stuff, but we're gonna start with a personal question, which we always do. And you are in a quite a remote place in Germany, and I wonder how come you spend most of your waking hours, first of all, in Brandenburg, and second of all thinking and acting and working around regeneration at a significant scale. This is 3,000 hectares, 2,000 forestry of that, and 1,000 arable. Like how come you ended up on Gutenberg?

Max Küster 3:42

Yeah, that's a good question. I don't really know how it how it really ended up there, but I know that I come from a very small place in the western part of Germany. Yeah, just started living here with with farmers in in school. My my father comes from a comes from a farm and then became a doctor, so it's kind of in my genes, I guess. But we never had a farm, and I was just working and and playing around on farms all my childhood basically. But then for me it was always clear that yeah, I I couldn't be a farmer because I don't have a farm. That was kind of depressing thought for me, maybe. And I thought of okay, what's the second best? So I jumped into business and economics actually, and yeah, had a lot a lot of looks at numbers and yeah, also I'm still still into this kind of yeah, business-related view. But it was always the thing that I really had the passion for to be outside, to be in nature, to work with nature, to really see the productivity of nature and be with animals, be outside, and yeah, I did that as a hobby all my life. And then I think I was 30, where I realized after lots of studies and I think five or six years in university, and then five or six years with an internal consultancy for a big energy utility in Germany. I realized that this is not like really fulfilling me. So I I skipped, I quit my job with 30 and really yeah, looked looked around. I was walking uh the pilgrimage in in Spain in 2020 with the COVID times, which was actually a perfect timing because there was nobody there, and yeah, I had a really nice time there, and yeah, I realized that that farming is actually the one thing that I always wanted to do since I'm a kid, so yeah, I looked out for the types of farming that I can identify myself with. And in the farming industry, there was yeah, lots of things that I I couldn't really agree with, so I looked for for places and people that I could look up to and and where I could really see myself working and putting all my energy in. And that's where I heard of Benedict actually. I talked to him and he was just about to start a new venture, so to say, and he needed someone who could take care of the project management, who could yeah gather funds, who could really get new revenue streams in. And I said, okay, that's I think something that I I learned in the last 10 years, and that's something that that I can do, and and at the same time I can learn a lot about farming, and yeah, that's why I said okay, Brandenburg is the the wild east in Germany, so that's where you can really live up to the farming experience 100%. So yeah, that's why I went there.

Koen van Seijen 6:46

Yeah, a lot of trees, a lot of farms, a lot of struggle, not easy soils, quite a few wolves, but you're only one hour away from Berlin. So if you need a small shot of city. And now, like a number of years in, are you spending a lot of time outside? Is that the balance inside uh computer spreadsheets outside or calls, things like this, obviously? Which it's always nice to do walking on the land. We we are a few thousand kilometers away from each other at the moment. So, how is your balance, screen time, outside time, cow time?

Max Küster 7:17

Yeah, that's that's interesting because that balance shifted quite a lot to to the inside world again. So that's something that that I sometimes struggle with currently because I started the first couple of weeks with with Benedict, with with Rosie. I don't know if you know her and a lot of other other ones.

Koen van Seijen 7:36

Now in France, right?

Max Küster 7:37

Yeah, she's in France now, yeah. And uh we we were like a really small team like five years ago. They were the the base base team, so to say, in the agricultural practice, like five people, and then another five people who just came there, some some just working and and and trying out what they can do without any kind of salary or anything. So so just trying and seeing what what we could do. And that was very very funny because when I started, Benedict just said, like, go outside, have fun and and see what you can do, and and that was kind of the perfect time for me because that was 100% outside, so planting agroforestry systems and doing some some composting stuff with Lawrence and and just being with the cows and and everything basically outside, and that lasted, I think, for like four weeks, and then like the honeymoon period, and then the yeah, and then the the the real life hit in no, but but then that's that's what also that's what why I I came there because I had the business background and had the background in like project management and and getting funds in and everything. So I started to to work on a yeah science project that we applied for with the European Union and the German government, and and in the end we we got that project. I'm very happy for that. We still have that project in place, it's called Davazos, and that's that's what I like put put a whole of my focus in to yeah, conceptualize that and to to start this this project and also gather this fund for this project. So that's where I think it it came back to like maybe 50-50. So I was still a lot a lot of times I was outside, and and the other times I I tried to get in the project, and when everything worked out, I could hire three people for the project, and we could start the digital twin that you talked about, and and all that. And then with the time, like after five years now, I I would really say that I'm 95% in the office, doing a lot of spreadsheets, doing a lot of numbers, do a lot of financial stuff, and yeah, the 5% is more or less the weekends where I like to be with the cows outside and and do the feeding, and yeah, from from time to time I'm I'm always there when we uh when we shoot a cow and and all that. So that's that's my time outside and hunting and all that. But yeah, 95% of the job is now in the office again.

Koen van Seijen 10:05

Which I mean it's an interesting tension. I think many people recognize that you come into the space wanting to be a lot outside and more outside, but also many come into the space with a unique skill set of numbers and spreadsheets, which which many that are on the land not necessarily have because they're very good on the land. And so it would be not a shame, but like your talent, your unique talent and second and skill set is is also partly there. But of course, 95 is a lot. So there's that balance. Like, how do you it's like the famous story like I love skiing and I bought a ski hotel and I'm only changing beds and making breakfast and never skiing again. And and that's but yeah, your neat unique skill set is also at spreadsheets and computers and calls and getting partnerships in and getting research funding in, which is so important. And and so yeah, I I recognize the the the struggle or tension, but yeah, 95 sounds a bit high. Maybe you need to slightly work on that a bit in the in in 2026. If we're recording this at the beginning of the year, you can still do some some good like let's say promises for for this year.

Max Küster 11:03

It's definitely one goal for the year to to be more outside again, but but still it's also the case that it's not just boring and and you just have to do it uh to be in the office. So there's a lot of things that that I really feel that I have a big leverage where I can really do something that that brings the whole team and and everything, the the project forward. So I think a lot of things that that you do is yeah, is really worthwhile spending the time also inside and and getting things done where you afterwards really see also outside what what happens of it. So, for example, some projects that we that we got in that really yeah made it possible for for us to put everything on a whole new level outside. But of course, there are also a lot of bureaucratic things and stuff that yeah, that a lot of farmers I think know um that you just have to do and and that's that are really just a pain and and you would just love to go outside and and I don't know, sit on a tractor or walk with the cows.

Koen van Seijen 12:07

You were saying love being outside. I think that's the point as well, like uh with the cows, but your leverage point is with the highest impact is not always moving the cows and feeding the cows. Like, of course, mentally, there's an important piece there, I'm not underestimating the mental health here. And just to describe, let's say, because I think for many, what you have, and I mean that the larger you there, of course, with the team have built is very inspirational in terms of recognizing a lot of the work that pioneering farmers like Benedict and the team and others are doing is actually research and development, is RD, and universities are interested in that and funding is interested, but to interact with a single farmer is often impossible. So you sort of start an an institute next to it, you start an entity to handle those requests, also because if somebody's running a commercial farm, interacting constantly with researchers and government programs, etc., is is just a lot of distraction. Like, how did that process that was that thought was already there from Benedict when he brought you in, or that sort of shaped while you uh while you were playing four weeks outside, let's say, implanting trees?

Max Küster 13:10

No, the the the thought was already there. Also, the basic fund that that's what he got in already in 2020. So that that was clear the the way where we wanted to go, where we wanted to put our focus with the scientific work that was not 100% shaped, so that's what we what we build up together, I would say. But as you say, yeah, it's it's a big trade-off because we are a farm. We we have to be commercially uh viable and we have to live from everything that we do. So to make the scientific projects besides or on the on the same fields that we are farming on is a big, yeah, is a big competition, so to say, it's it's it's a big thing for us to to really get both of them successful. But for us it was very important because we we knew that the kind of farming that we were starting, or that Benedict already started in I would say 2016, 2018, around that time, planting agroforestry systems, really starting off the composting part, yeah, no tillage and and everything that you that you can imagine basically uh bringing in the animals. Exactly, integrating the livestock again and and all that. It was pretty clear that it will be yeah, very, very tough to do that commercially sound, and and it was very clear that we needed to look on the on the effects of all these measurements. So it was for us, Benedict and I, we have this financial background, so so for us it was very clear that we needed to tap in the in the field of ecosystem services and really look at okay, what what value are we are we actually creating and and why isn't that value paid for in any kind of way? And that's just the the key thing that that is also just yeah getting me out of bed every every day because when you see what what big leverage agriculture and and land use in general is and and how many of the pressing problems that we have we can really directly address with the measurements that we take outside, then you really think like why isn't this like a big topic? Like, why isn't every politician talking about that? Like, why are we not getting our money together and then putting it in the world?

What is the one key thing you would like land

Koen van Seijen 15:39

Because the money is there, like yeah, the money is there. So what's missing? What's what should like what would you as a land manager or as a farmer, as a steward of the land, and and what should policymakers? You're quite close to Berlin. I know Benedict goes often and speaks and and has of course a famous book and a TV show, and and when you're getting a lot of people coming over, you you have quite a few stages, let's say, where you you largely you get to speak. What's the main message that policymakers not fail to understand, but would be nice if they would would grasp that both in Berlin, both in in Brussels, both in I mean all the capitals are similar in this case.

Max Küster 16:45

Yeah. I would I would say three things. So, first one is the understanding. So I really feel that a lot of people just don't have any clue about farming and what actually happens out there. So if I talk to friends who are working in different industries, um they don't really know what farming is actually about and and how it's working in these days. So I think you don't really have an understanding of what your decision in the supermarket basically leads to in the end of the whole value chain. And I think that's holds holds also true for politicians, sometimes at least, that they don't really know like how big of a leverage we have there. So so what kind of solutions we could find to really fight against climate change, biodiversity loss, and all that. So I think that's really the first one: the understanding of how how important farming and and forestry is. The second one for me is the market. So for a lot of ecosystem services, there's there's just no market, and that translates to the third one. Third one is basically data and and how we are measuring things. Because if you want to have a market, you need something that you can save. So you need something where you can uh put a number on or yeah, have have data about it. So that's why there's a market now for CO2 certificates. Sort of, yeah. And sort of, yeah.

Koen van Seijen 18:22

We're working on the side note. This is part of an AI for soil health project of the European Union, but we're also working with OGCR, which is the open registry for carbon carbon registry, which is the attempt of the European Union to actually regulate carbon and say, okay, this is an open source framework, and we're all gonna play according to the same rules. You will hear a lot more episodes around that going forward because there, yeah, there is uh there's also the Wild West out there in terms of carbon and there are income streams, there are there's certain interesting revenue streams potentially for farmers, but it hasn't really materialized properly yet. And and so there's this sort of ambiguity, although we know understand that just paying through food is not gonna get us the results on the land we we need.

Max Küster 19:03

Yeah, it it has worked out for us now since two years. We're having a CO2 certificate program with the partner, and we are also like tapping into this wild west of CO2 certificates with the Vera standard and and all that.

Koen van Seijen 19:18

So there they're is it meaningful in terms of amount of money? I don't need to know the numbers, what you sell for etc. But is it a meaning, is it a is it worth all the trouble?

Max Küster 19:26

Let's say it's it's worth all the trouble, but that just is holds true for the partner that we have. So we have a partner who's really yeah, who's really strong and who's really taking a side for us and says, Okay, I will invest in in the measurements that you are doing outside. And he's basically covering 80% of the costs. We are covering 20% of the costs, and we are doing all the things outside, but also I'm for example leading the whole project in terms of the CO2 certificate. So I have to do all the things that Vera wants me to do, and have to gather all the data and and have to do all the administrative stuff about it. But for that, it was very important for our partner to have something in in their hand in the end. So they they were like, okay, we don't just don't just want to give you some money so that you can do good things. And and we said that's that's also something that we don't want to have because we region we just want to have a bargain, we just have a want to have a trade, we want to do something for our money and really earn it and also plan with it. We just don't want to get a funding for for doing good. And yeah, that's why we came to this point because that's actually where you you have the understanding. CO2 is a big topic. I think we can talk about like how big it is or how big it is compared to other problems that we have. So I don't want to want to play it down, but it's it's it's obviously very much in the media. CO2, everybody knows about it, everybody knows about climate change. So that there is a problem, so you have the understanding. The second one is you have the market, kind of, and the third one is you have the data because you can kind of put a put a number on how much CO2 equivalence you have in your soil. So that's why I think this works. That's I always say kind of because it's not perfect.

Koen van Seijen 21:19

No, no, no, but it's it's if it's real money and if it's worth the trade-off you're making for your time and your energy. And so let's talk a bit about the data and technology. Like what kind of technologies have you used? Is it remote sensing, the the AI stuff, of course, the satellites, is it soil probing? Like, have you dig a lot of dug a lot of holes? Like what kind of how how have you come? You said I've done a lot of that work. How have you come to those numbers of always CO2 equivalent, which is always interesting, especially when you have animals? Uh but let's say what what what has been the work to to get to is it carbon sequestrated, like stated and or avoided? Like what is what has been your work there?

Max Küster 21:56

It's both, yeah, it's both. So it's CO2 emissions reduction and it's also sequestration. But the third the first thing that we did when when I came for Benedict and myself, it was always very important to have like a baseline, to have something where we say, okay, we need data to show that that this actually works, because there can be a lot of people running about the farm and and seeing what happens, and they believe you. But if you want to like go out to the world and say, Hey, this this works, please like give it a chance, please. raise money for for this kind of regenerative agriculture, you need to have data. And that's why we started off with like a big baseline of soil samples. So that was kind of my first project. Did you have to pay for that yourself?

Koen van Seijen 22:40

Did you how did you manage to referee? Yes.

Max Küster 22:42

Yeah, that's that's what we did ourselves with the foundation that that Benedict founded in 2020. And and that's that's what we yeah just needed to do in terms of okay we want to have the whole picture. So that's where where I looked into it and for me as a kind of an outsider I I was really interested how different of an approach that it was used like in soil sampling in general all over Europe there were all kinds of different samplings sampling methods and laboratories. And also of course I looked into Northern America the Haney tests and all that where you can at least try to to see a little bit more of than just the the chemicals that you have in the soil and and maybe the organic matter. And yeah that's that's when we really started on these 1000 hectares of land to do soil sampling we hired an external one so that we said okay we we want to be objective we don't want to do it ourselves and go only to the right places and we took over 10,000 samples. I was working a lot on the quad outside at that time that was nice but yeah then we used five different laboratories so we sent them all over Europe basically and I think the Haney test was actually in the US I don't know if we sent it over or if if there was something in in the European Union where we could do it. But we also did that test and then we kind of formed our baseline in the first place and we did then a second sampling three years after that so that was 2024 so two years ago and yeah that that was everything we did by ourselves for the foundation but with the with the sampling from from the CL2 certificates it's it definitely depends on the certificate that you use. So you have very clear standards what you have to do what depth you have to take and everything so that's that's something where we just have to adhere to to the practices that are given of the standard that that you have and that's also something that for example our partner now in the CO2 certificate project pays for.

Koen van Seijen 24:57

And and did you already see a difference like 2021 24 like what what have been surprises in the data let's say or not?

Max Küster 25:05

Yeah the the one thing is that in the first place I always like to be sure that we do this scientifically right so we have different different universities now just working on it so I don't want to like just give an answer like very broad answer and then everybody in the science department department is like how can you say that yeah so it depends exactly but what was striking for me is that yeah really the the grazing just helped a lot I mean it's kind of kind of clear if if you take arable land and then you put perennials on it and then you have cows on it that there should be something but I mean it was just three years so that was really striking that you can you could definitely see a big effects there. Yeah maybe maybe the the the most important yeah the most important part of what was for me the grazing really I guess there there are still also pieces where you think okay oh oh sorry I have to this one we have to cut out I think no worries sorry maybe start over again there's still pieces you said yeah so the the grazing was was definitely striking and then there were still pieces where you where you think okay we did different kind of management styles here so what was it in the end? So that's that's something where you also struggle with in terms of revenue streams like where what what is actually the the thing that you want to want to put a price tag on would would you just rather pay for the measurement method that you're using or for the effect and I think both have a lot of pros and cons and and the thing is with the effect you sometimes I think don't really know and even in the in the scientific projects we have so often that that people just tell us like from universities if for example if we are speaking about compost and then they say like okay just use three ingredients please so that's that's what we can manage to really observe and and and tell you how everything is working and then we say okay we we use at least like 25 so why would I just use three yeah because with 25 we cannot do anything like we cannot really say what what happens there. And I I totally understand that but the problem obviously is the diversity also in the part of the compost for example that's where the magic happens right that's that's where where things actually work and yeah that's that's always tough then to to kind of reduce it to the need of of the scientists.

Koen van Seijen 27:57

But yeah and and beyond that like no actually and and all this data and all this so do you own that do you run it? Is it public like is it open source?

Max Küster 28:07

Like how how does the ownership work um with a lot of these research I mean you research the first two times you paid yourself so I think it's owned by by you like with but with all of these universities and all of these research partners and now also with selling these credits how how does that work in terms of data and ownership which of course is a hot topic in the the the time of AI and and uh let's say US Europe China yeah yeah we have to differentiate between like the science projects and then the CO2 certificate project so the CO2 certificate project is really a commercial project where we have a partner um who supports us and afterwards they're gonna get the project the the certificates so that's that's their ownership they own own the certificate in the in the end with all other data also the the soil samplings that I just talked about that we did in the beginning and everything that's all data that we put put online that we that we public that we publish with with our partners so we just had a publication last year on agroforestry effects for example and this this is all public data and that's that's also the yeah the the use of the foundation right so it's the the thing is that we want to gather a lot of data and want to see how things interact and where you can really see changes and after like doing only these baseline data tests with the sampling and everything that's where we started the the the doubleSus project which stands for data and value based decision making for sustainable land use that was the longest sentence I could think of when I when I applied for the funding and in this in this project where you can also just Google it and find everything online in this project we really wanted to have a look into five different ecological focus areas and we wanted to look on the financial data of farms so basically we wanted to combine what's what is happening in the office and what is happening outside and show a picture of yeah we call it like reference between so just like a the the basic farm so to say just basic ecological farming and then the regenerative farm and we are comparing these in the five ecological focus areas and on the financial sheet so to say where you where you see like what is what is happening in the simple ecological farm and what is happening on the on the regenerated farm and basically on the simple ecological farm is that a real farm or was that the farm that when you started let's say or when you and as has that been living in the digital world as a digital twin as a comparison okay what would have happened if we didn't go so extreme to this depth on this stuff and we keep running it as as of we just kept going as a as a a large scale organic but still tillage no agroforestry no animals technically so so it's so you have to think about like we are working on 1000 hectares of land and the project is looking at roughly 300 hectares and within these 300 hectares we have zero plots like reference plots where we just do like the normal ecological farming still so we also have tillage there we not always have like cover crops as on crops and everything so basically how you were farming before you went extreme on region basically but it's not conventional it's not that this it it is still it's certified organic but it is ecological industrial farming I think Benedict likes to say it as in the ploughing etc but that would be interesting to compare it even to a third one which is what would the farm look like if you weren't doing even that you were doing the the standard what your neighbors are doing. Yes exactly and and we would like to go really much further with it even that we now are just in terms of also practicability we started on our farm and because we only do organic we we cannot have a look at conventional farming there. But what we want to do in the next phase is that we really want to look at multiple different farms and just apply this technique that we now have and gather data on a lot of different farms also conventional farms and yes it's very very interesting that you can see how complex it is to get all the data in obviously but it's also really really tough to connect the dots because sometimes you see ecological effects but where do they now really come from and and also also the scientists I I think they like it really much because it's a cooperation with four four different universities and and we do they struggle a lot because I also hear stories of scientists I remember Sally Cow and this is years ago when we had her on for the first time said they said we went to a number of different universities in California did this six seven plus years ago and we offered to pay like come please research our farm and they were like no no it's too complex we need one thing only let's do the cows let's do this but we cannot do and the sheep and the grain and the you know like that's just like maybe that's shifted or you find the right partners but is there is there is that a journey as well yeah I think yeah definitely it's it's a journey I think they they still need to stick to to what they what they can observe and they have a provision so they they come from the soil science so they they cannot really look at at the water cycle they cannot really look at biodiversity topics when they are above ground that that's something I understand and that's that makes sense but what what you can really see is that everybody's really interested like how how does it all come together so all of the scientists want to focus on on their piece of the project and they they want to have yeah just just a good setting so that they can really do a scientific sound work but everybody is is kind of like looking above and and beyond and and it's like asking okay what what what what happened there? And it's it's really nice to see that we have like every four weeks we have a a meeting with with all of the scientists so it's a quite a big group now it's 10 plus people who are always there and yeah we are discussing really like all the the connections between the different ecological effects but then to to really discuss what what happens in the different field areas so it's it's about soil it's about water it's about biodiversity it's about microclimate and it's about the welfare of animals that's that's basically these are the five ecological factors if you want to say that and what what it's it's already tough to to connect the dots between them but but that's something where I think we are quite good at now. But now to connect what does it actually mean in terms of financials and and how how fast can you really see a change and everything and that's that's just not like a simple connection and that's something I think where we are just where we aren't aren't there yet so we I don't know if we if we if we ever get there on a scientific way but what I what I truly believe is that we need to get there quite fast and to to make that connection I believe that sometimes it's it's really easier to yeah to to lean on the on the measurements and on the things that you do outside and to talk about okay where can we put our money to that that things get to work and we are really facing the biodiversity loss problem for example because we're just planting we are just we're just starting to to do something and not just waiting for the effects like and and also discussing okay is it is it uh five percent better or five percent worse I think it's it's really about okay getting started and and doing things. And and is that the goal with this research project to then have I'm not saying blueprints but to be able to interact with other farms around or other places and say okay these these are steps we know we we we have um we are pretty sure like these are steps to take in these kind of areas in this context and these are the things not to do because we know that that doesn't really work we probably have a long list of those like what's the goal of of exact apart from understanding the effects of this kind of transition on on your farm also beyond that yeah so in one major solution of of the project is a tool a digital decision tool so that you get all of the data that that we are covering outside and also from from the office that you get it all together and you have a decision tool where you can basically play with so you can you can what if you think about okay what if yeah what if what what if farm at Gotabasel level exactly and what what what if I I start tilling or or what is what is happening if I put the grazing here and there and and all that. So that's that's the the decision tool that we want to have in the end and that's also what I said earlier that we want to take this tool to other farms around Germany and also around Europe in the best case. So that that's that's one effect and then I'm sorry I lost I lost I lost the train design of thought yeah one effect is so one effect is this decision tool and sorry give me a second no worries so one effect so one solution is the decision tool and another thing that should be an outcome of the project is to look at what do we actually have to measure. So what are the ecological effects that are really important to us and and what are the proxies really right so and also in a digital way how can we measure them without just 10 people going out and counting rainbows right exactly so that's that's where we have a look at so yeah multiple technologies that we are using there for example infrared systems that are counting insects and yeah obviously remote sensing yeah there are different kinds of climate stations that we put all over the field so we have like 35 climate stations on these 300 hectares roughly there's a lot of technology involved but we want to really see like okay what kind of technology is is is really needed and also in terms of the price like how how costly is it to to put it in place and that's that's the the second main outcome of the project.

Koen van Seijen 40:09

And what technology are you most excited about or into like it's even like it might be a bit edgy still or what things are coming or what have your scientists talked to you about like it would be amazing if we get XYZ whatever that might be from robotics to stuff like what what is or special microphones like a lot of these these sensors are getting a lot cheaper now as well and but not necessarily more reliable and robust because it's easy to be out in a farm like what what are you excited about in terms of what's on the horizon for you in terms of technology I guess I'm not the technology savvy guy but but what I really like is the biodiversity part of it so the infrared system that can just like count the different kinds of and insects and define them.

Max Küster 40:59

And also we are using cameras and microphones also in the in the forestry areas of of our farm which are really exciting so so that's just where you can really have a look into yeah into wildlife and into animals that are that are sharing the land with you and that's that's just amazing for me to to see but that's more of a kind of that's that's something that that I just like to see and and and observe. I see that coming back and bouncing back as well because we're in such a biodiversity crisis that like anything there anything more in terms of life on the farm although it might eat some of the things you want to grow is is is almost beneficial in in the deep crisis we're in yeah and and that's why I mean it's just joyful and something for the heart so so to see the insects to see the mammals to see everything just buzzing outside with this infrared system and also with the with the cameras and the sound systems that's that's really nice but for me it's always then from my rational point of view then the question is okay where's this actually leading to like are we paid for I don't know three different types of of insects now or or what what what actually happens with it that that's that's where I always have this this this check with myself like okay what like it's it's really nice and I I know it's the right thing and the good thing to do so that's that's something that you cannot put a price tag on but I think it's still important to come back to the point like okay what is the actual value and and how can we also benefit from from the work because if we cannot kind of benefit and and compare ourselves to to other farming practices then then it won't be something for the long run. It won't be something where other people can also start with and and keep that business running for for themselves and and their children so it has to it has to pay off in a way and yeah that's where my rational head always kicks in then.

Koen van Seijen 43:12

And and do you see that because there's a lot of talk I think in the regen space on of course cost reduction on quality improvement if you can access those markets on a lot of those those things and you're and you're saying there is like we need to be paid for other effects as well where do you see that going over next year? I mean the conventional ag is is depending a bit where you are but definitely struggling ag in general is struggling because of weather effects because of biodiversity loss because of tariffs because of input costs and all of that do you see it almost naturally converging towards regeneration and and region ag or is there still a lot of work to do to make it the viable not alternative but viable path for many that are struggling now they're like okay so when if they start looking around and they say they and they see the other option is stopping and selling and the other option is actually to go into a transition where do you think we are in terms of in in your context of course because it's super context specific in terms of reJab practices like if people knock on the door like neighbors and say we are up to here with with with the current system can you take our hand and and lead us through a transition do you say wait 10 years because we haven't figured it out yet or it's like actually let's let's go I would always say let's go but I think in general it's it's the the latter one so you said that is yeah is it is it important to to get solutions and and put it on a path that that a regenerative agriculture is really viable and I think it still is important to do that.

What should smart investors, who want to

Max Küster 44:45

I I don't think and I don't see it that that it's just becoming the future and and every everybody will will adopt and everybody will do it. I don't see it that way I I really think that we have to push it very much to to to get a A product for the majority, really, and for people to take it over and adopt it. Because when you just look at Germany and Europe, you have a highly subsidized system, so it's it's not really comparable to the US or other parts of the world. It's a really highly subsidized system, and the subsidiary scheme has a major effect on what people are actually doing and not doing, and the the scheme is still worked out in a way that you just get paid for the land that you are working on, and it doesn't really matter what you are doing, it's basically just you have to do something. You have to do farming. That's the only thing. And and it comes in the in the last couple of years, there is more of a focus on on ecological effects. But the way that I see it also from from people I know in friends of mine who are doing conventional farming, a lot of them are rather dropping out of this subsidiary scheme than taking over the ecological measurements and and and getting rewarded for for them. So they they are really fed up with a lot of bureaucratic bureaucratic needs, and they just you know having a look at the market, and and I think in terms of prices and margins, and also the part of the value chain that that farmers still have, um or the yeah, small part of the value chain really that they're working on, it's super tough and it's not something where just people want to start start doing regenerated farming. They they need to have solutions that that they can really be sure about and rely on. Still, I would always say, let's go, let's do it, because uh we are very strongly believing in that the way is is beneficial for for nature, for people and for ourselves. Yeah, but it's it's it's it's a display.

Koen van Seijen 47:03

Not for the faith of heart, yeah. And yeah, what would be your message to like investors? We we took a lot, of course, on the investing side or or the role of money. And let's say we do this in Berlin in the or in Frankfurt, the the financial capital of Germany, in a room and the theater full of investors, for sure. You I mean I know because I've been there a few times, you've had a lot of investors on the farm. What is your main message to people managing money, investing their own or other people's wealth when they when they interact, let's say, with regeneration? What is a seed you would like to plant in the mind of investors?

Max Küster 47:57

I personally would like to tell everyone that our whole economy, our whole all of our businesses are based on natural resources. So everything basically that we are doing is dependent on on the earth, on on the sun, on the natural systems that that have to work. If they are not working, nothing else will work. You cannot produce anything, you cannot bargain with anything. So I really truly believe that this big foundation is is the most important thing that we have, and we yeah, are not only needing to to preserve it and to build it up, I think it's it just has a massive value for a lot of other industries. And I'm 100% sure that this is the most important thing in the future to have these ecosystem services that are running out of their usual business and the all the old assumptions that we have where you don't need to put them in into the equation because the ecosystem services are just there. This time is over. I'm I'm pretty sure about it. So that's why. Do you feel that?

Koen van Seijen 49:17

Do you see that center of urgency with people coming? Is that has it been changing since you've been on the farm, for instance?

Max Küster 49:24

I mean, I think you can you can see it in the news every day when you when you just look about the summers, and even in Germany, that's very mild weather and and temperate climate that we have, where you where you can see that the rivers don't have enough water so that in the summer, so that the the ships cannot cannot pass anymore, so that the trade is just stopping because yeah, the the goods cannot be transported from the south to to the northern or to Rotterdam or or the big harbors. That's that's just one factor, and and there are so many things that that are threatened because of the way we yeah, the way we treated this this this planet in the end.

Koen van Seijen 50:08

But does it land with people? Do you see that translating from oh the rivers are low, so the boats don't pass, oh we put it on a truck, which is way more expensive and we're more polluting. But like, is it starting like with with decision makers, like are it starting to like ring the alarm bells at a level at a higher level than we're used to? Because I've been following it for 15 years, slowly it's starting, but I don't really see that notion of the lever we have with land use, as you mentioned at the beginning.

Max Küster 50:36

Yeah, I I think the first thing that that people think about is okay, what's the next best thing? So the river is not having enough water, so so as you said, like, okay, I can I put it on a truck, what what else can I do? Can I can I kind of narrow the river so it's or deepen it and and everything? That's the the next best thing that that people are looking for. We had a very severe flood three years ago or four years ago, I think, in Germany, where people then always were thinking about okay, what kind of dam would we have to build and where is it and and how many billions of euros do we have to spend to make this secure? But I always think that we should we should really go to the to the root of all these problems. So we should just have a look at okay, how are we managing this land around the river, for example? Like how can we work the land in a way that and maybe pay the farmers for it who actually do it so that we we are building up the water cycle in the end and and we are having higher carbon, higher higher carbon in the soils, and and and healthy soils in general, so that they can they can really soak up the rain when it comes slashing down and it's not flooding all of our houses and industries. And I think this is this is the root cause that we have to really have a look at. And I don't really see a lot of people just like, hey, yeah, that's that's it, let's do it. But I think it starts with with insurances, I think it starts with banks, especially the insurances. They they know they know that that times times are getting rough, so they they are looking at okay, what what can we actually do? And do they show up on the farms?

Koen van Seijen 52:18

Like, are they knocking on the the foundation's door, like on research, etc.?

Max Küster 52:21

Like, can we I I uh talked to some of them on on a forum with the scientific works that we are doing, so uh especially also in this Davisus project. I talked to some guys of the insurance, and and I think the the premiums or the prices that they would need to pay a farmer to just manage their land in a different way are currently still quite quite low compared to what's at stake.

Koen van Seijen 52:52

And compared to their billions of flooded houses and data centers. Let's talk about those. Yeah.

Max Küster 52:57

So sometimes you you talk about, I mean, there's a Boston Consulting Group has this publication out, and I think there was another one who were talking about okay, how many euros per hectare do you actually need to transform into regenerative agriculture? And and and I think you can you can discuss and talk about what is actually the exact amount, but I think it's often it's it's a few hundred euros per hectare. And compared, like even if you if you take more or less the whole size of our country, for example, it's sometimes really just yeah, just peanuts against the problems that that the insurance are facing with really severe and and extreme weather events.

What would you do if you were in charge of a 1B investment

Koen van Seijen 53:43

So really the the ang and okay, and they're not showing up yet, which might we might need to do a bit of targeted work. And I think there's there's a larger water cycle discussion there to also discuss it from the floods. If I remember correctly, I think a lot of the water came from the Mediterranean and from severely degraded land there as well, didn't fall on the land around the Mediterranean and moved up to to the center of Europe, which it often does. I mean, last year I think it was it was Austria that got hit immensely.

Speaker 2 54:10

Yeah, exactly.

Koen van Seijen 54:10

And two or three years ago too.

Max Küster 54:13

Sorry, yeah, we had we had it in Austria, we had it in in the southern part of uh Germany, we had it in the Arta, that was in Western Germany a couple of years ago. And I think it it it will get more severe, and I think the earlier you get farmers to change, the better it is, yeah. The cheaper as well. If if you really go to the root cause now and and you change something, I think it's it's also from a business perspective, it's it's a wise decision.

Koen van Seijen 54:42

We'll we'll we'll see what we can. We're gonna do more episodes around the water cycle, and and the insurance angle keeps coming up. I just don't really know yet how they think, what they need, scenario planning-wise. I mean, they have teams on this. Like I I there's not there's no reason why they're uh shouldn't be showing up to research. If you know anybody, people listening, please get in touch because I would love to uh explore that more. And if we switch the the the side of the table, if we if we put you on the side of the investor, it could be a large insurance because suddenly you have, and I'm not saying you should have that kind of wealth, and nor does this investment advice, but if you had a billion euros to put to work, it could be very long term, up completely up to you, but it has to be put to work. What would you focus on if you had that kind of money, like a billion euros?

Max Küster 55:31

I think I would I would focus on obviously ecosystem services, but I really would would look at where's where are we close to a market that is establishing? And what about interesting you say establishing, not established. Yeah, there's nothing yeah, yeah, yeah, establishing, yeah, definitely like biodiversity credits, for example. I I don't want to want to talk about the credits all the time, but but I would would look at like where where can be where can where could be a market, and definitely I would would look at what kind of industries are mostly hit by weather extremes, by yeah ecological problems, and that's where I think I I would have a clear eye on. And for me, but that always comes I don't I don't have one billion, and I'm pretty sure I won't get it in the in the next couple of years, but but still what always comes into my head when I think about it is the concern of property rights. That's that's the only thing I really haven't figured out yet in terms of ecosystem services and and people paying for it and trading it and valuing what farmers are actually doing. Because I still see the problem like who owns fresh water, who owns unpolluted air, who owns the biodiversity that somebody built up, and I think that's something where yeah, we definitely need to think about, even though it's the second step, after the first one, basically establishing markets and really trading and really valuing and and really money that is that is flowing and coming also to the people who are doing it outside. But then the second step would really be okay, what what it what does it mean in terms of property rights and and how can we, I don't know, regulate it or how how is it actually secured that that still this common good is can be used commonly.

What do you believe is true about regenerative agriculture

Koen van Seijen 57:36

Yeah, I think there are a lot more people smarter than me, at least, thinking about like how and there's the big danger with a pri we put a price on everything, we put a price on nature, we put a price on an insect, and it's like suddenly it's worth something. And that means also you can kill it, and and if you then help facilitate ten other insects, you did a good thing. But of course doesn't mean you can kill the one. And it feels inevitable, and it feels like a lot of weird tension around clean water, uh clean air, etc. that you you mentioned. But somehow we don't seem to be able to find other ways of paying through healthy food enough to the farmer to actually, or farmers, to actually lead to significant change on the land. There are ways to do that, we just had Martin Reiter on with rare. I mean, there there's gonna be like the food as medicine space is gonna be very interesting, but is it big enough, scale enough to to uh lead to enough hackers to actually change, which is what we need here. Like one thousand there, ten thousand there, a hundred thousand there. Otherwise, this is just uh a funny, a funny game in the corner and not having not having the effect we need. So that's the big yeah. And who knows, like biodiversity, it's not even clear what it exactly means. And and let alone if we start trading it. I mean, we know what happens when we start trading the wrong thing. Derivatives in housing, for example. We we can lead to interesting biodiversity bubbles, that would be fun.

Max Küster 58:53

Exactly. But but still I I'm really sure that we have to put a price tag on it because if it's not in the equation, nobody cares.

Koen van Seijen 58:59

It's already there, it just means zero.

Max Küster 59:01

Yeah, that's the yeah, exactly.

Koen van Seijen 59:03

Like it's not it's not up to us to to decide if we put a price tag. If you don't put uh one above zero, you put one which means zero. And thus everybody can cut, can, can plow, etc. And and as a final question, or no, one of the few final questions we usually do in regenerative agriculture, we like to ask it a question inspired by Joan Camp and where in regenerative agriculture, like what do you believe to be true about regenerative agriculture? Others, like your bubble as well, like we're in the regen bubble. Where are you a bit contrarian in the regen bubble when it comes to to agriculture?

Max Küster 59:38

I personally, or we're not gonna be able to do it.

Koen van Seijen 59:40

No, you personally personally, no, no, this is about Mac.

Max Küster 59:43

Okay. I'm contrarian.

Koen van Seijen 59:46

Your love for spreadsheets, no joking.

Max Küster 59:50

That might be one. No, that's a tough one.

Koen van Seijen 59:55

Like in the team, you're like you have often uh slight arguments about or when you go to other region farms, etc. Where do you see and say okay, I actually see this completely different.

Max Küster 1:00:05

Yeah, but maybe it's my my own history, but where I'm a bit contrarian is that I really truly believe also if it's complicated and and if it's if it's tough, we we need to understand how things are working, also ecologically, before we not before we start doing them, but um before we really decide to to change everything based on on what we think is right. Yeah, that's a that's a bit it's a bit complicated to discuss. So it's it's for me just complicated to explain. I I think there are things like the symbiosis of of uh soil microbiome and and plants that that are just super tough for us to explain and and to explore and scientifically say what why is this actually happening or how is it happening? And I think we cannot neglect that it is happening and we should focus on that because it's super important to to start working with this assumption now. But still, we have to be careful about I think just saying just from one or two or three observ uh observations okay, that's things that that's that's amazing, that's super nice, and let's just all do it that way. Then it turns out like yeah, and then it turns out like five or ten years later, they this was in the in the first couple of times, it was just like one specific thing that did this, and you know, like we we we should be yeah, strong and clear enough to to also work with assumptions and to just believe in what we are seeing and and to really go on and not just start, but but really start start working and and uh getting things into the ground. But still we we should have a clear clear mind about what we can actually already explain ourselves and and what is something that we also just don't really know yet, and and we have to be careful about where are the things that we know and where are our assumptions. Um Yeah, and it's easy.

Koen van Seijen 1:02:26

I mean, it's such a complex system or like the living world, and you're seeing three signs and you think, oh wow, this cover crop mix is amazing. And actually there were th just three outliers, but you never know, and you put it on 200 hectares and it doesn't work. Like, oh and and that but also you need to keep doing and trying things because nobody has the recipe in Brandenburg. Like it's not that there are ten others you can go to and say, Okay, how many show me your your cover crop protocol over the last 20 years and and show me what works, if it hasn't worked, like where do we buy this? It's like it's it's a lot of and you see that with most innovative farmers, they are figuring out what works there and what doesn't, and most of things don't work. And some sometimes you see a sign of like, oh, this actually works, and actually it was just a lucky coincidence. And some other things that worked and ended up making the cover crop look amazing, but it wasn't the cover crop. Just to pick up cover crops in this case. Yeah, for I mean, but it's such a difficult tension, but of course, their data and and really m monitoring and measuring over time, and really doing the baseline and and keep as trying to capture as much as possible, and hopefully with with with big data and and AI starting to see more of those connections or things we haven't seen yet, or but in order to do that, you need a lot of primary data because most of this is based on frameworks and models which are just not true on the ground, and and we need to catch or collect so much more to even understand the connection between trees, animals, and soil. Good luck.

Max Küster 1:03:51

Yeah, and and and don't get me wrong, I mean we we need to have the courage and we need to start now, and we need to be okay with the assumptions that we can make and and go from there. So I personally think that science is too slow. Science is too slow for us now. We cannot wait 10 or 20 years and then say that's what we should have done 20 years ago.

Koen van Seijen 1:04:11

Um you put in a big agroforestry system this autumn, right? You were planning like and getting to assumptions you've done so many different iterations on a smaller scale, still not small but smaller. And now I think you were planning 80 hectares in in our doing and mostly fully mechanized, really on the livestock, because you see the effect on shadow and fodder and the soil, and and and that wouldn't have been possible if if you didn't start planting in 2018.

Max Küster 1:04:37

That's the exactly and yeah, that's that's that's one of our pros projects that we would do just currently if if the frost wouldn't be here, so it's minus five, minus ten sometimes. But yeah, we we hope to still get it done by I would say end of end of March, the latest. And yeah, that's where we put in like 50,000 trees, like plant 50,000 trees, and yeah, have millions of seed of seeds in the ground by by end of March, hopefully. And as you say, that's by far the biggest agroforestry project that we currently do, and we are always learning and and we're always adapting every year because we then recognize okay, that that's that's not perfect, or this is something that we should do differently. But as you say, like if Benedict didn't like start already in 2018-2019, then we would still figure out like what's the what's the right line of trees that we should plant, and and nobody no nobody in and would care, and nothing would have happened.

Koen van Seijen 1:05:39

So is that something you would recommend? Like, is that because you're doubling down quite heavily on that now? And is that something for neighbors that want to integrate animals or have animal potentially? Is that something okay? This is something we start to get a comfortable feeling. Of course, we don't understand all the interactions, we don't know exactly, but we are starting to see okay, with this kind of trees, this kind of size, this kind of machinery, this kind of planning, this kind of angling in terms of sun, shadow, etc., this kind of water systems, we we get a feel of what an uh a silver pasture system looks like here. And also the management side, like mechanization, how do you do that at scale? Because this is a lot of work. Like, do you feel starting to feel comfortable? Because it seems you're doubling down quite significantly on on this this protocol.

If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing in the

Max Küster 1:06:26

Maybe it's something something personal because I am quite a rational guy, I think, and and for me I learned especially in the last five years, that at some point you just need to put the spreadsheet aside and and and need to leave the the desk and just do things. And and I think it holds true for a lot of things that we are doing in in Martlitz at our farm that we are not doing something completely out of the blue and and we are thinking about it obviously beforehand, and we but we still don't have like the perfect recipe, and we don't have everything worked out. So at some point we just go ahead and start and plan and and and see what happens and and take it from there. And I think personally it's it's something that that really brought me forward and and that I can also see with our work that just leads yeah led to a lot of things that we can now harvest and then we can we can see what what's what happened but also in a in a very broad and societal way I would I would say like we just have to start doing things and we have to go out there and plant a lot of trees. Yeah and and yeah I mean if if it's yeah it's planting trees it's it's it's changing the way that that we are um interacting with with the animals and with the livestock it's it's all the things that that make up regenerative farming but in general just like really to to look at the root causes and and start changing things to the better and not talking about it too much and discussing like what side effects we have in in in what kind of scenario and like if we do that we just postponing the problems and making them worse because time is not on our side I'm pretty sure about that. Absolutely and as a final question if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing overnight could be in anything land use agriculture food subsidies global consciousness taste anything but only one thing what would that be how we work with animals that's for me personally it would be the most important thing that we realize how we are treating animals on this planet currently is is not the way that we should do it and I think we it's it's way too far of an industrialized system where we just produce meat, we produce milk we produce eggs and we don't really think about that there's a living being that we are working with and I myself shot one of our cows two weeks ago and and I eat meat and I drink milk and I eat eggs but still I believe that we we need to change something fundamentally because the the way that we are industrializing that that kind of of field of farming is way out of hand and I think it brings a lot of problems to yeah to the animals obviously but also to ecological boundaries to our health and that's something that yeah the magic wand would be would be a nice thing for no I I obviously completely agree we're running a full animal series which actually we had Benedict on if you want to hear the shot we we filmed it but we didn't put it in the video but if you want to hear the opening of that episode and and the the deep care and violence that is in it because we end up eating them I would recommend listening to to that.

Koen van Seijen 1:10:13

I will link it below of course as well and and with that I think it's it reminds me of yeah some other episodes we need to make around how to bring down the KAFO industry which is going to be an interesting challenge but also very fulfilling purposefully driven one I think and then of course what's the role of animals in the landscape in restoring which you're seeing uh quite significantly and then we can all be more with animals and choose if we eat them or not there's a there's I mean I'm not judging yeah yeah at all.

Max Küster 1:10:41

Exactly it's I think that's something for everybody should decide for themselves and and I personally made that decision still to use these animal products but I mean we as a as a whole as as the society on this planet we we should really change something about the the system and the way we are working and treating animals and also using them obviously but yeah that's that's something that got way out of hand in my personal opinion.

Koen van Seijen 1:11:11

Yeah and with that I think it's a perfect moment to wrap up I want to thank you so much for coming here obviously for the work you do and for sharing from a warm office as it's minus five minus ten outside and although you want to be more outside and plant trees but that's not possible because the ground is frozen. But animals have to be moved because they're year round outside so I hope you get some some time outside today and over the next weeks and hopefully yeah a lot more trees get into the ground as AT because we need that. Thank you so much Matthew thank you so much thank you cool bye wow thank you so much for listening all the way to the end and I'm super curious what you thought I mean I'm really inspired of course by inspirational and pioneering farmers that's why we do what we do that's why we have them on the show so often because it's a rare breed in general in any sector people that think differently that act differently but specifically in a sector where you literally if you're annual only have 40 harvests if you're lucky and if you're perennial even less and so the the chances of innovating the chances of changing are just so small. And when people do that and against all odds because the whole subsidy scheme is based on how many as you heard Mark say how many hectares you have and sort of quote unquote farm. And so when we see people really doing everything in this case I think Benedict sold his his car when he bought his first cows like putting everything on the line and and doing research and development for all of us and specifically also for all the farmers around them. How do we reward that? How we how do we horrible word ecosystem services pay for that how do we do this kind of RD with universities that should be doing this and with researchers that should be doing this but also struggle with all this complexity of in this case 25 species in the cover crop instead of three which what they could handle. And so yeah really enjoy this conversation to see um where we're at why they started a foundation or nonprofit next to it a research foundation why they're starting to sell or starting is already selling carbon credits how that's working what they're measuring what the limits are and of course yeah hope you this inspired you maybe you're a farmer and you're starting a foundation or a nonprofit and please keep us updated let us know if you are if this triggered you in a good way or in a bad way if this inspired you if you send this to someone please think of others. You've listened to this now at a full length and now it's our job to inspire others and maybe people that don't listen to a full length podcast. So figure out a way to share a clip share the transcript some notes whatever it takes to help other people to lead the change and we need much more of that desperately so thank you for listening thank you for the role you play in this sector and hope to have you at the next one. Bye bye thank you for listening all the way to the end for show notes and links discussed check out our website investinginreativeagriculture.com slash posts if you like this episode why not share it with a friend and get in touch with us on social media, our website or via the Spotify app and tell us what you liked most and give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player that really really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time This podcast is part of the AI for soil health project which aims to help farmers and policymakers by providing new tools powered by AI to monitor and predict soil health across Europe. For more information visit ai4soilhealth.eu or find the link below