418 Sylvia Kuria - Farmers should grow their own food first

Sylvia Kuria started with a kitchen garden and a refusal to use chemicals on food for her newborn. Seventeen years later, she runs Sylvia's Basket, aggregates organic produce across Kenya, trains smallholder farmers on half-acre plots, and helped get agroecology written into county government development plans with real budget behind it. The journey from that first bottle of pesticides to a funded policy win is not a straight line — and the business realities along the way are rarely the ones that make the headlines.

The question running through this conversation is deceptively simple: should farmers feed themselves first, before thinking about any market? Sylvia's answer, grounded in seventeen years of practice, has implications for how we think about food security, monocropping, market access, and who gets to sit at the table where decisions are made.

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Transcript

From City Life To Soil

Koen van Seijen 0:00

Today we talk with an organic farming pioneer in Kenya who started as a city girl and wanted to grow the best possible food for her newborn. So she started a kitchen garden. And later, her and her husband challenged each other to not go to the market anymore and grow all the food they needed from their own 0.5 acres. Things grew a bit out of control from there, and she started supplying her friends with vegetable boxes in Nairobi. And one thing led to another. She opened a retail space which boomed during COVID, but also led to huge fixed costs and a lot of waste. So she pivoted to aggregation and B2B, where she now found a lot of success, growing on over 10 acres and running from many, many smallholder farmers. And she found her role, training smallholder farmers 0.5 to 1 acre, who don't necessarily have access to the online knowledge and sales channels. Their main lesson, they should first grow their own food, stop the monocropping and the colonial crops like maize, etc., and actually grow vegetables and things that thrive and grow under the tough circumstances. And then, and only then sell the surplus. Farmers should first feed themselves before thinking about any markets. She also got into local politics and managed to get agroecology policies approved, which should definitely be an inspiration to all of you thinking about politics. We talk about the myths of organic farming, feeding the world, and why farmers are almost always absent from the decision-making tables and how we can change that. This episode is part of the Regenerative African series, where we interview leading regenerative agroecological entrepreneurs across East Africa. It's a special collaboration with the Organic Guy Podcast and supported by Rutico, a regenerative venture studio rooted in East Africa. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food Podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities, and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Welcome to another episode today with Organic Farmer, Entrepreneur, and Organic Farming Advocate. Welcome, Sylvia.

Sylvia Kuria 2:04

Thank you very much.

Koen van Seijen 2:05

And this is part of the Region African Frontrunner series, and you've had actually two conversations, one quite a while back, six years with Brian, and one more recent, just the end of 2025, which of course we'll link below. And we'll take it up a bit from there. And of course, it's not needed to have listened to that, but it's a nice, a nice pre-to this one. This is part of the two-way series we've been doing. And I want to start with a question we always ask, of course, Brian also asked about your background, but we go into it. Why you end up as you are and were a city, actually were a city girl. How did you end up spending most of your waking hours focusing, working on, advocating for soil?

Sylvia Kuria 2:45

Yeah, so basically, whenever I started off as a mom, a young mother, we just moved out of town, and I just wanted to give my little baby the very best. So I figured, why don't you grow a kitchen garden? Because where we lived out of town, you had a beautiful garden, and I thought, let me grow my own food. And you know, I was so I didn't know anything much about farming. I could hardly recognize what are weeds and what are beans, but then with time I realized there's some insects that are affecting my crops. I never knew at all that crops are affected by insects. And when I went out to find out how do you manage the this insect, they gave me chemicals, and I was like, there's no way this can be good for me. And that's where my journey of organic started, where I went into research, speaking to different people, visiting farms, and getting to know how to grow safe food for my family. So that's how I started off, and I figured if my family is able to enjoy this wonderful food, how many mothers like me out there would also love to access some nice organic, safe, nutritious and diverse foods for their families too. And that's how my business, Sylvia's Basket, was born.

Koen van Seijen 4:01

And do you think, of course, it's in retrospect difficult to think of different scenarios, but if you wouldn't have been a young mother at the time and you just would have moved out of the city and started a uh kitchen garden, would you have been so sensitive, let's say, to the chemical bottles or the chemical stuff they gave you? Would it have been an issue already then? Or was that the fact that you were and are at that time a young mother? And I think many people recognize suddenly food is important. More important, let's say, when they have children, how important was that mother piece and being a trigger there of I don't want this okay?

Sylvia Kuria 4:33

I think I would have not have been as keen as I was at that time, because sometimes when you think about being a mom, you want to give your child the very best start. Many of us are lucky that you can be able to. Many of us are lucky that you can be able to uh take care of our own children and when you start winning them, you really want to start on the best. So I think the fact that I was a mother was a very big motivator to make sure that what my child is starting off with, all her solids have to be organic, have to be safe, have to be good for her.

Koen van Seijen 5:08

So, yes, being a mom actually was a huge motivator for me to actually And then it could have, with all respect, stopped there in the sense of you at some point learn how to grow a nice kitchen garden enough for you and your family, and maybe a few people, a few friends left and right. Uh, but it didn't stop there. What was the trigger? When did you thought, okay, this is more than providing the best possible start for for my children and my family, but actually this could be an entrepreneurial journey.

Sylvia Kuria 5:35

Yeah, two things. So let me bring out the part of being an entrepreneur. So my friends would visit us out of town. They would like to drive out of town to come and visit us because we're just one hour away from Nairobi. So when they came, they'd always be going back with huge baskets of vegetables. And they were like, Yeah, you can't give us this thing for free anymore. So I had five friends, including my sister, who said every week, just bring us whatever excess you have in your garden. And that's how I started the business. So I had faithful five friends once a week, uh just be able to drop off what I had extra. And then from there it kept growing because people are asking where do you get your vegetables from? When I'm dropping in the offices, people ask, Wow, those veggies look so good. Can I also have a basket? So that's when now we thought about now expanding our land so that we can be able to grow more volumes. And then another thing that came up which I hadn't anticipated was that the local women, my neighbors, would always pass by my garden and you'd be very amazed at the many things that I've grown because I actually started on half an acre, and on that half acre, I think I had about 20 different vegetables and some fruits. And they wanted half an acre with all these vegetables because I had one single row of carrots, potatoes, beans, sweet potatoes, onions, like three types of onions, kales, peanut, everything that we consumed in my family. So the women were so amazed. They used to say that on our farms we only grow maize or just potatoes or beans and nothing else, but they didn't know that half a necre could produce so much food. So that's when my passion of teaching, especially the local women, on how to grow their own organic kitchen gardens also came about. So for me, my journey now is two-pronged. I went into entrepreneurship, and at the same time, then I went into training. Both aspects came together just because I wanted and and where did you learn?

Koen van Seijen 7:31

Like you were clear, you couldn't identify your own words. This case, the weed from a bean. Where did you learn? Was this the time you could go online? Where did you get your seeds from? Were there any neighbors of neighbors of neighbors? It could be mentors. Like, where did you learn how to mulch, how to put compost, how to grow such a productive garden, and then face the insects? Because that was a challenge. What was your education?

Sylvia Kuria 7:52

I basically learned a lot on the um online, but then I also had my brother-in-law actually worked for a company that was promoting organic agriculture, and they actually had a kitchen garden. So I would visit that garden quite often for classes because at that time the owner of the company would call small like small-scale farmers and she'd do trainings on how to grow kitchen gardens, and that's what that's where I actually learned the most of what I did. But then experimentation also. I'm big on experimenting and trying out because what I did one day we just decided with my husband that we're not going to go to the market anymore, that our half-acre garden is going to provide everything we need for the family all year round. So I became a scientist. I got to experiment, I planted everything that could be planted, and over time got to learn what works, what doesn't work, what's companion planting, how do you grow different things, how does the mulch work, how long does mulch work on the soil, how to build your soil, taking my soil for testing. So it was just a huge science lab for me. But I got to learn so much. And with time, then I was able to scale my knowledge on a bigger piece of land.

Koen van Seijen 9:36

And then you took it beyond there, then you took it to retail and then also to B2B and aggregation. Like when did it come naturally when you were teaching, working with your neighbors to also help them setting up uh let's say kitchen organic kitchen gardens? Was there a natural surplus and leftover? Like, okay, let me try to sell that or let me bring that into town. How did it go from you to being multiple growers?

Sylvia Kuria 9:58

Yeah, for me, what happened was that when I started my home delivery basket business, I realized that I was very limited in terms of the variety of produce I had. Because in as much as I had all those vegetables, so some fruits that I still didn't have, some herbs. So I decided to reach out to Kenya Organic Agriculture Network, which is the national organic movement. So they coordinate organic in Kenya and they also work with lots of smallholder farmers. So I reached out to them because I knew they trained farmers and they had a pool of farmers who are looking for markets for their products. So it was just very fortunate for me that at that particular time they had just trained two groups of farmers in two different areas in Kenya, and the farmers had products and were looking for markets. So that really encouraged me to start a shop. So I started an organic club shop, which I ran for about seven years, and not forgetting my neighbors, the women that had taught, I also used to buy produce from them. And one thing that I was really passionate about is that I actually at some point started a small movement which I'm going to revive this year, but it was a half-acre movement, and basically I was just thinking about farmers who have got half an acre and below, teaching them how to grow their own food and being able to buy their surplus. Because generally, like if you think about how the farming ecosystem looks like, you'll find that majority of farmers only have access to half an acre or one acre of land, and when they grow for subsistence, you'll find maybe they have grown about cabbages. So 50 cabbages are too many for home use, but too little to take to the market. Because when you think about the logistical headache that they have to go through paying for transport, so I would focus on those farmers. So I'm like, you eat your 20 cabbages or 10 of them, sell me the rest, and they'd be very happy with that because that way that they can have enough for their homes and they also have some surplus to change to send to the market. So that really worked out for me. And actually, until today, I really focus on working on the farmers that have got small parcels of land growing their own food, but just have a small surplus.

Koen van Seijen 12:03

Yeah, which is also an interesting you mentioned at the interview with Brian, the fact that they grow their food for themselves probably is a very good quality check for you as well. As many more larger commercial, I'm doing air quotes, nobody sees that. Commercial farmers will have the plot to sell, which is potentially very toxic, and the plot for themselves, which is farmed organically because they know what they're eating. In your case, the ones you focus on have only one plot, which is all for themselves. And of course, you're happy to buy from them if they have similar value.

Sylvia Kuria 12:32

Exactly. Like you find the farmers who have very small plots of land and growing their own food are actually the best because they're very careful about what they put in the land. And also the farmers who have also transitioned to organic and region are the ones that you prefer to work with because they really know the value of taking care of their land and their microclimates so that whatever food they produce is definitely safe for themselves and also for the general community.

Koen van Seijen 13:00

Have you done any work on testing the quality of this kind of food versus the market? Like pesticide residues on the negative side, what is on the food that we don't want, but also on the positive side of what is in it. Is it more alive? Is it full of macronutrients, etc.?

Sylvia Kuria 13:15

Personally, no, because it's very expensive to actually do this in-depth research. And you know, ecosystem of growing safe produce, we actually need more investments in research to actually be able to have like a narrative that is substantiated with data and evidence. But I do know about different organizations, like I know the place where I'm actually selling my produce, which is an online shop, Greenspoon, whereby they actually are testing produce to ensure that it's not leased with highly hazardous pesticides, which I really appreciate because then that gives us the credibility for the work that we're doing. And I also know, like, there's a lady down in Nairobi, Dr. Sukahombu, who's also checking about the nutrition of the vegetables that are grown organically, and she's actually published some papers that are showing very clearly that the micronutrients in organic produce are actually way higher. So for me, I've not had a chance to do that on my own. But then from research and from my readings, it's actually quite obvious, you know, that food that is grown in rich soil actually has more micronutrients.

Koen van Seijen 14:25

Yeah, no, absolutely. We see a lot of research popping up left and right, and it's still it's very fascinating how that hasn't reached the general consumer yet. And so, what do you see there? You mentioned the education of the consumer that sort of conveniently looks away, even the ones that can afford it. What do you see as the biggest challenges and opportunities in terms of narrative change there, what the consumer starts really voting with their forks, let's say, and takes health seriously, not just the young mothers, but everyone else as well. What is needed there? What do you see as potential intervention points or places with high leverage?

Why Aggregation Beats Retail

Sylvia Kuria 15:02

The consumers actually driving the market. And I remember when I was when I started my shop, it was so hectic. Because I was everything. I'm the farmer, so I have to come up with a planting program, know how to do the seeds, know how to do my planting, then plant my vegetables, then harvest them, figure out logistics, take them to the market, do the processing, do the packaging, and then finally beg the consumer to buy these products from me. So you find that if you want to be in business sometimes, you just have to be everything plus the driver, the messenger, and everything. So it was so hectic for me at the beginning. And I had to learn the hard way that the consumers are the ones that are driving the market. And at that time, I was very active on my social media pages, on Instagram and Facebook. If you just search for Sylvia's basket, you'll find hundreds of videos of me dancing with my vegetables, just trying to convince people please buy organic, it is really good for you. And it did work in that season of time because I really went all out and I said I'm going to teach people about organic. I did post, I did stories, I did interviews, I did so many things just to convince people that organic is the way. Because you know, we didn't have a huge reach of people. We found that over time I've actually realized that we are very many players in the food system, and I think e each of us should actually focus on what they do best. So for me now, I've moved into aggregation, and my focus is on production and building capacity of farmers to make sure that we have a good product to sell to our customers. But I actually see a huge gap, especially when it comes to the civil society. I believe the civil society should actually be able to be taking the front seat and educating the consumers on why and how they should choose the food that they eat. As you said, making a decision with your hawk, fighting with your fork for safe food to be on your plate. So I like have been talking to different organizations locally and I really urge civil society, please take up your place. You're the one who would be telling people about Sylvia and her farmers and the other many different farmers who are doing an amazing job. But Civil Society should actually be the ones who are spokespeople speaking to the consumers about what we do.

Koen van Seijen 17:16

And let's okay, there are many different ways we can go, but let's focus on the aggregation piece for now in the production. You've let go of the physical retail space, and like you mentioned with Brian, it was very expensive and a lot of waste because yeah, you're you don't know who will show up. What makes you move, made you move, sorry, into the aggregation piece and more B2B and larger volumes and a logistic size as well?

Sylvia Kuria 17:40

Okay, let me say one thing. About the larger volumes, we realized that our organic farmers are only selling to us maybe 40 to 50 percent of their produce, and everything else ends up in the regular conventional market where it's not differentiated, which is very unfortunate because this farmer has put in so much effort uh to grow this seafood and it ends up being mixed up with everything else, and nobody recognizes it or knows what they're having. So that's one thing because with aggregation, if I'm able to work with good customers who are buying at wholesale, they're able to buy large volumes, and that works perfectly well. So then that way, when I started aggregating, I'm finding that I'm almost buying everything from the farmers. Like my farm is actually supplying my shop. Uh, my aggregation center, about maybe 40 to 50 percent of everything that you sell in the market every week, and I sell out on everything. Sometimes I even have to take one week or two weeks break because I've harvested everything and I have nothing else. I just need the lunch to rest a bit. So that has read well that we are able to do the volumes. We are able to do volumes, we're able to sell way, way much more. Please remind me the second part, sorry.

Koen van Seijen 18:52

Then no, and then I think it's a fundamental piece of the market access. Like for many, many people starting not many, uh a whole movement starting market gardens or starting to, and of course, we all argue you should sell directly to the consumer, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, which means, at least in the more European contest that I know better, going to the market in many cases to farmers' market, oh, they're so perfect, they're ideal, but you spend your whole Saturday there or your whole whichever day it is, you bring quite a lot of food, bring quite a lot of food back, don't know what you're gonna sell. And if you look at the numbers, it's just not that convenient. Even though the market might not be that expensive, you spend a lot of time, a lot of fuel, a lot of men and woman hours, and probably not sell enough. So I'm looking, and it seems like you have done a similar analytics or analysis and started moving in a different part of the value chain where the volumes are easier, where logistics are easier, and where it just makes, yeah, you move a lot more food.

Sylvia Kuria 19:47

Yes, exactly, because that works much better logistically, it's not very stressful, like how it might have been when I was doing the shop. Because the other thing about having a retail shop is that there's a lot of food waste and loss because you have no idea who's going to come by and buy and pick up something. So we really had to hope and pray that people are going to come in and we'll clear the stock. And then also when it comes to freshness, we don't have a cold chain, we didn't have a fridge or a cold room where we could be able to keep our product safe in good condition. But with aggregation, it's working so much better because the farmers harvest the night before in the morning, it's at my center, and by midday I've sold everything, so it's just open and closed, and also we also realize there's a huge gap. I don't think there's anyone else aggregating specifically for organic. So for us, you're also meeting a need for the organic farmers who want to go bulk and want to sell in larger volumes, and we're also debunking the notion that organic is small, it's not small. We can actually be able to produce a lot of food, it's not that small.

Koen van Seijen 20:58

And potentially price can go down as well, then, or like accessibility becomes different, which is another huge myth. Like organic has to be, by definition, expensive, and partly of that is probably because it's often moved in smaller quantities. In many markets, of course, it's very context-specific, than quote unquote more conventional. And then do you run your own logistics? Who do you sell to? What are typical clients or customers that can buy in bulk and are looking for organic in bulk in Soros?

Training Farmers For Market Access

Sylvia Kuria 21:26

Basically, I have two main customers, so online supermarkets and restaurants. Those are the two that are able to actually buy in bulk and they're happy to buy once a week or twice a week, depending on their needs. But right now it's online supermarkets and restaurants, they're the ones who are actually able to uptake. For the online supermarkets, we have to sell the grade one produce, which is vertically pleasing, which again is still another debate because I always wonder why we are so stuck on food looking beautiful and thinking that the beautiful vegetables are healthy. I don't know why we got all that mixed up. That's if a tomato is nice, shiny, and round, no spot, no blemish, then it's healthy for you. That's actually the very opposite. You know, when it has a scar or two, then you should be very happy that this tomato has actually fought it. In fact, I was reading something um the other day about um how like organic produce that actually has blemishes, like maybe it's a bit scarred because of pest attack. You'll find that actually those plants. had to fight off this and they see this um chemical reaction in there that actually makes that plant more potent in terms of nutrition so someone did a study on that yeah probably the phytonutrients and the same or the antioxidants or the anti whatever we the anti things probably are more present at that moment and so and then you're selling to restaurants into online supermarkets and how many farmers are you buying from regularly like part of course you're selling at most of your own farm at the moment how many hectares or acres do you have currently no I'm just farming on about 10 acres which is not so big but anyway going from half an acre to 10 is still 20 acres yeah so basically um I'm growing on about 10 acres and I also wanted to mention something that apart from selling to the online shop and the restaurant we also found that we have these products that are not aesthetically good and we wanted with them and many times we found ourselves like trashing perfectly good organic produce and taking it to the compost until we actually had an idea. Yeah very very painful and we figured no we can't do this anymore and we decided let's take it to schools so I actually reached out to some high end schools in Irubi and I thought they would be very open until the high end schools told me no we cannot take grade two products because when we are processing the food for the children we need all the carrots to be like long and straight we don't take wonky or forked carrot and I it I was perturbed. It was unbelievable because I'm like seriously who cares if the carrot was wonky or if it was forked but they're like no we are sorry we use machines to to chop up all our food and I said no let's let's do better. So eventually we linked up with some kids in the informal settlements around Nairobi and that's where we are taking our organic bridge two products that are not very beautiful but still very nutritious and organic and I'm very happy to share that right now we've started the program we're in our second month where we have primary school children in the informal settlement enjoying organic lunches so that's really and you could argue they eat better than in the high end school for sure.

Koen van Seijen 24:39

100% yes which is very good let's say let's get them around with their machines and their perfect straight carrots at some point we'll that might take a while and in terms of training like other you say I'm mostly focused on production and helping other farmers now with all the research you've done and is there some kind of curriculum or how do you have you documented all the lessons you've learned in the field painful lessons over the last years how do you teach or how do you educate also at scale let's say all the farmers that have half acre one acre that you would love to to let's say inoculate more with the with the organic way of of farming?

Sylvia Kuria 25:19

Okay so I've done a bit of documentation but not much. I think I got a little discouraged to be honest but now I'm getting myself out of the dust. So I actually wrote a small booklet on how to grow an organic kitchen garden in a semi arid area because we farm is actually quite dry and I try to look for publishers all over the place and no one published so I've decided to self-publish. So I'm still in the process of documentation and just sharing my my journey on how to grow different crops organically how to do a kitchen garden how to plan for your farm so that's all things I'm working on right now. But then apart from that I was actually very fortunate to partner with iFarm which is the International Federation of Organic Movements they're based out in Bonn in Germany and they have an organic academy so I reached out to them and I told them hey let's see how we can work together to develop a very basic curriculum for smallholder farmers. We developed a curriculum and we did a pilot last year where we trained two cohorts of smallholder farmers on access to market which was very successful. So we are now just like winding up on documenting the learnings from the training and just putting all that information together and seeing how we can be able to scale it officially so that's two pronged so one I'm writing my story of my experiences over the past 17 years but you also have this like curriculum that has been developed for smallholder farmers training access to markets which is really exciting and I can't wait to scale it really excited about it.

Koen van Seijen 26:49

And to double click on that access to market piece what what do we get wrong mostly about that both outside the space or in the space and both of course if you're a smallholder farmer why are we not talking about access to market or when we talk about about it what do we get wrong or what do you think could be done differently more effectively that of course with more impact one of the things I think I found is that most of the development partners have actually focused on the production part of the food system.

Sylvia Kuria 27:19

Long time ago we used to call it the value chain and we call it food system. So many partners have actually focused on the production part and very few have actually put in investments in other parts where you talked about processing you mentioned logistics and being able to get this produce all the way down to the consumer. So we need more partners to actually focus on the different aspects of the food system to make sure that this food actually ends up in the market. A lot of food gets wasted and there's a lot of misinformation there's so much that happens here in between production and the market that I think needs to be sorted out by different partners so I think we also have need to be very creative on how we work in the food systems to make sure that each of us are able to play our roles where we are gifted or where we see the most need and fill in the gaps where the needs need to be and then secondly I also find that people keep asking the question can organic leave the world and my question is has other farming systems fed us they haven't they're still hungry in a way and I'm always thinking and trying to challenge the notion that growing safe food is not uh like you're not able to do it like on a large scale that's false you know it's possible to do it on a large scale I had one of my farmer friends who was actually growing organic produce on 50 acres for export and it worked perfectly because she was able to put in all the different aspects of agroecology and region and ensuring that her soil was rich and it's actually possible so one of the things we need to do is to work with bigger farmers debunk the notion that we cannot be able to feed many people in large volumes and then something else is also like on the part of the farmers when the organic movement started in the late 80s early 90s at least here in Kenya it was mainly focusing on many gardens which is very good because it's very important that farmers start growing their own food fast before they take it to the market. But I feel that we got stuck there we're just stuck at the family gardens and we don't have the commercial mindset. When I started my shop I remember many years ago about in 2019 I said I want to start my shop and this is what I want to do. And I was looking for funding and everyone said you have to prove the concept that it can be done because I said I'm going to start my shop I'm going to sell organic and I'm going to sell it affordably and they kept saying prove the concept prove the concept today I'm still proving the concept we are growing organic at skills we are able to sell it but we just have to be able to believe and trust in the farmers that they don't have to do just family gardens but they can actually be able to venture out and actually grow more produce and how will they be able to do that with knowledge access to information and I'm sure we can be able to grow the market and an access to market.

Winning Agroecology Policies Locally

Koen van Seijen 30:43

I think that's a big blockage as well and are you actively thinking now in your let's say renowned renewed focus on education to maybe also do a cohort with larger more commercial focused farmers or is that for somebody else for their strength let's say to tackle the 50 100 acres to see what a transition you have examples obviously the one that you just shared but to see what a transition looks like at that scale and what kind of knowledge and inputs and what kind of of market access is needed to pull that off.

Sylvia Kuria 31:13

Let me say that's for somebody else because my passion is still with the other farmers because you find that the farmer who has 500 acres also has access to the internet they have access to information they have access to funding but then you find with the smallholder farmer they don't have access to all those so maybe that's for someone else for now.

Koen van Seijen 31:31

No fair enough fair enough it's very important to know what you should focus on where your passion lies and also where your unique edge or unique contribution is to to this space and then on the policy side you've done actually quite you've been very busy and you mentioned somewhere I still sleep seven to eight hours a night which is good because it seems like you're doing four careers at the same time so we might get some people asking tips how to do that. But on the policy side you've worked quite a bit and would love to know more about uh the CIDPs the county integrated development plans which take agroecology into account I think policy sidewise it's been interesting to say at least globally how little attention has been for other ways of farming and you've been a part of something very instrumental there.

Sylvia Kuria 32:17

Basically as a farmer who is very interested about the future of our children and how we are going to ensure that we're able to follow through with these farming systems to make it sustainable there's no other way but you have to work with government because government will only be here they're the ones who are able to mainstream almost any technology all the way to the grassroots and in 2021 a group of farmers from my village were about 15 of us we decided that we're going to be very proactive in terms of being able to work with our local government to mainstream agroecology and how we did it was sorry to interrupt but how many of the 15 did you trade? 15. We're just 15 farmers one five all of all of them all of them you trained all of them like of the 15 how many ah wow okay so that was a strong start exactly so we just started as 15 farmers so we trained them on agroecology for one year then the next year we decided now to move into the policy space because it was going to be an election year and how during the election year is the best time to actually be able to bring in new ideas new policies new strategies at that time the politicians are very friendly they will listen to anybody and anything as long as you vote for them. So we made sure to take part you take advantage of that season and what we did was that in the county plants we actually have a chance to take part in public participation and in the public participation we can then be able to see what we would like the county to provide for us in the five years of government and we put in our submissions whereby we actually give activities that were actually embedded in agroecological principles that worked out very well excellently to the extent that all our submissions were actually approved and four out of five of the submissions have been fully funded into the millions of Kenya shillings and we are very excited about it. So it's been a wonderful example that this can be done that farmers can actually take part in public participation farmers can take part in the policy space they can be the ones who are at the table making the decisions and sharing what they would like and keeping their leaders accountable. So we found that as a very good strategy in terms of mainstreaming region agroecology and organic in the policy space especially and so concretely like the four out of five that have been approved we don't have to do every single one but what's the direction what is the uniqueness why is it so important for our farmers like yourself? One of the things that was approved was actually having a local and territorial market because where my village is we have to go about five six kilometers out to to the main market which is in Limuru the town very close to our home and we found that very inconvenience because most farmers don't you know some of them have to do even 10-15 kilometers and we said no according to the budget that we was allocated to our ward area like our small village we asked them please could you just put some money aside to build a territorial market and the market has actually been built it's actually now within the vicinity we are farmers one second you're breaking up a bit okay it might be me probably it's me actually can you take it from when you were talking about when I asked about what's why is it so relevant for the farmer because then I'm not sure if we called everything after that so it's very relevant for the farmers for us to actually be able to mainstream agroecology because one of the things we asked for was to get a territorial market. Farmers actually had to travel about even 10 some even almost 15 kilometers to get to the main market to sell their products which was very unsustainable and we also found many farmers don't have the logistical support so they have to end up selling their products at through a we farm gate prices so the market has been set up and it's in a vicinity of an area where we don't have to travel at least even more than five kilometers to actually get to the market and it's working out very well that we can be able to promote marketing of our organic products farmers are able to access markets which means that they have money in their pockets we have accessibility to a wide variety of produce that is grown in the community which is very important for us. Secondly we actually are in a so basically why it's very important for us to actually work with the farmers in terms of being able to put the farmers at the table working with the local county governments and being able to put our leaders to account is actually to ensure that farmers are able to get an ecosystem or an environment where they're able to thrive for example let me give an example for us when we were working with the local county government to mainstream agroecology into the county integrated development plans we asked for a local market. The market that we have was out in Limuru where farmers have to drive or even get to take about 10 to 15 kilometers just to get to the market which is very difficult for them to access uh the markets which meant that if they can't be able to go all the way to the market they would have to sell their products at farm gate prices which were very poor whereby the buyers or the middlemen and brokers would just buy at whatever price they please because the farmers are desperate just to get rid of their produce to go to the market. But now with the local territorial market which is like in an in a vicinity where farmers don't even have to travel five kilometers farmers have access to markets which then make sure that the market has their best products organic is also very accessible right in the village and we have found that when farmers actually have access in local and territorial markets then you encourage them even to go ahead and use uh like organic practices and region to make sure that they are able to grow safe food for their own community so that has worked really well something else we also asked for was for inputs when you think about water because our farms are also in semi-arid areas where the government is able to sink for us extra bowls to ensure that you have more accessibility to water and also the issue of seed. Many times the government would be especially here in Kenya the government would just be dispensing maize the whole country irrespective of your ecological conditions but for us we see in a semi-arid area maize is not going to do very well here we need seeds that actually would do well within arid areas according to our ecological conditions and now we're asking for cassava for sorghum for these drought tolerant crops that are doing really well that are then have brought back the nutrition aspect access to food security so just being able to work with the local county government has brought about such huge like rewards for us which then has come to show that it's very important that farmers should be at the forefront of policy making and implementation and has there been a lot of pushback let's say from the input industry the chemical input industry obviously against these kind of plans or has it been relatively let's say quote unquote under the radar maybe I would say it under the radar also because the farmers are the ones who are pushing for more sustainable ways of farming it's obvious because when you look at our farming and our yield most farmers would look back at their crops their farms and look at the yield has been dwindling over years. So they're looking for answers they want solutions they want to be able to increase their yield they want to be able to build their soils so whatever strategy you're going to give them that is going to put more money in their pocket give them higher yields they're happy to go ahead and do it and they've also realized that the heavy use of synthetic inputs is actually degrading their soil. So their soils are dead and without using synthetic inputs they're not able to grow anything. So now we are trying to transition them to actually see if they can actually do a blend of of the synthetic inputs and organic compost and then being able to transition 100% into using organic compost and it's giving very good results. So farmers are actually asking for a change so I don't think we actually have a big push because the farmers are the ones who are actually pushing themselves from the ground up to say that we need a change. We can't continue the normal farming systems they're not working for us. We need to be more sustainable.

Koen van Seijen 41:13

Yeah that's such an interesting point how to transition farmers and not going cold Turkey not going Sri Lanka style let's say but making sure that it's a gradual transition and to make sure yeah that the the chemical inputs are phased out as quickly as possible but also as safely as possible because you don't want crops to fail you don't want hunger you don't want all of that obviously but you do need something to change as as soon as possible so it's very interesting you have figured out strategies to do that let's say and then on the has this policy scaled then to other counties I think I read that a number of other counties have picked it up like how has it been going let's say horizontally to to neighboring neighboring counties that that have also started putting uh the CI DPS in place yeah actually one thing that has really worked well is that in 2024 I think it was November 2024 as a country we actually launched the National Agroecology strategy.

Money Flows And Who Gets Paid

Sylvia Kuria 42:15

So having this national agroecology strategy has actually created a conducive environment for counties to actually think about and see how um at the county level they can also develop their individual agroecology strategies. So as we speak yesterday I was with some partners in the industry and one person mentioned I think we have five to six counties that already have their agroecology strategies and because we have this national umbrella of this then it gives a conducive environment for the counties to actually pick this up so right now it's working really well that um the counties are picking it up very well but we still have a huge gap because even when I visit these counties where they have an agricology strategy you find that farmers at the ground level don't know about it. They don't know what's happening. Like it's so far removed from them and that's why it's very important for us to work with grassroots organizations to work with the local farmers and teach them about the policy processes. Because when we started off in my county we went to a neighboring county and one thing we realized is that farmers have no idea that there's actually a development plan that is actually available to them with millions of shillings every year um for the five years when the government is actually in place that they can actually take advantage of and say anything they want and they will get it. So farmers have no idea about that. So just being able to educate them and tell them there's actually a development plan and this development plan has got this amount and it's up to you as farmers to take part in public participation exercises and make sure your voice is and all those very nice things in there.

Koen van Seijen 43:56

Yeah there's money available but you need to know it's there and you need to be able to access it which of course is for an individual farmer in any circumstance is not always easy. And then for let's switch gears a bit to a number of questions we always like to ask on the role of money and finance in this space you do a lot of public speaking uh you're very vocal obviously you've been writing what is your main message let's say to the financial quote unquote industry to invest towards that are investing their own money or investing other people's money pension funds, insurance companies, banks, etc, about this agroecology transition, about the organic farming transition, what is the one thing that they should remember if only one thing remains from a conversation we might have, we like to say let's say in a theater in Nairobi and the whole room is full with people working in finance and of course we have been eaten really well we've seen a lot of interesting pictures a lot of interesting videos a lot of interesting conversations on stage but if there's only one thing they remember the next day what should they remember from that evening around organic farming oh well that's difficult to answer because I'm very biased.

Sylvia Kuria 45:06

But from my opinion I would actually say that they need to remember that at the end of the day if money is not getting to the smallboarder farmer's pockets nothing is going to really work. Working with smallholder farmer to be honest is very complex it's a very complex system sometimes don't even know what to touch on what should you do what shouldn't you do but I think at the end of the day if you want any technology if you want farmer to adopt any technology it has to be able to make sense for them financially also that let me give an example when you uh watches his neighbor growing tomatoes one season the like tomatoes do very well they're able to sell and get something of course the farmer is going to follow that technology which is what city did you buy what inputs did you use where did you sell the market and once the neighbor sells the technology the farmer is going to be sold and said even I will plant my tomatoes next season. Same thing with what you're doing at the end of the day we can you know talk about all the semantics we can give it all the good news but unless it actually makes sense for the farmer and puts money in their pocket and makes farming as a business nothing is going to work at the end of the day. And also when you think about it not just the money but what is the farmer going to benefit in terms of being able to feed their family all year round in terms of the nutrition in terms of their soil. So there are so many aspects which I agree it's complex we need systemic change from the ground up it has to have different disciplines involved but at the end of the day we find that when you think about how money is made in the food system the farmers who are the producers the foundation of the food system actually get the the short end of the stick. No absolutely so whatever we do are we making sure that these farmers are going to have something at the end of the day.

Koen van Seijen 46:59

And if we flip the conversation or the table and put you on the other side as an investor and let's say we always like to ask a crazy amount of money let's say you have a billion dollars to put to work not because we are asking for investment advice which obviously we don't give not because we look for exact numbers but more if someone and a practitioner like yourself and a deep sector expert suddenly has uh a lot of resources a lot of financial resources what would he or she do and what would be priorities what would be big buckets you would uh invest in and put this money so what would happen if you have a billion dollars and you had to put it to work over time could be long term but what would you focus on?

Sylvia Kuria 47:42

Oh okay fine one of the things I would actually think about is I wouldn't be able to sort the whole complex system of the farming but I would put a good considerable amount of money in research asking the questions why why is it after all these years of capacity building and trainings and so much money sunk into the system we're still not seeing any results. Every year we're still having new projects new programs so I would go back down and put in research which I think we've received very little research and um documented research to actually see how we can be able to solve some of the issues the complex issues that are combating the smallholder farmers something else I would do is also work very strongly with the consumers as we see the consumers are actually the drivers of the market very few of us are working with the consumers we just assume that if you work with the farmers and the farmers have this beautiful product the consumers will definitely say yes how do you change behaviors remember during the COVID 19 pandemic we knew that we had to be was it four or six feet away from each other we knew we had to sanitize we had to put on masks and now our behaviors have changed actually if you think about it most times now when people have a really bad flu or a cold they'll actually mask up because they don't want to infect everybody but before COVID no one cared would sneeze all over the place and we're not really bothered but can you imagine because during the COVID time we were so sensitized about how to stay safe and actually not spread the virus can you imagine if you're able to put that money into the consumers and teach them and show them this is how you need to choose your food these are the farmers you need to be able to work with this is what you should be demanding in the market and once the consumers demand for it the farmers will comply so I would put a lot of money into research to try and think about the complex issues uh that are making the farmers not actually be able to make it out of this not making any money and also go back to the consumers and ask why aren't the consumers demanding for this safe food why is it we're the ones who are forcing it down their throat what's happening where is the gap there and does that mean you potentially go back and on Instagram and dancing with vegetables or what do you see as I'm asking this with a smile obviously there's no there's that's not an effective but it's an interesting I know an interesting let's say angle as well do we need short form media how do we need it how do we reach outside our bubble how do we talk about pesticides without being uh too alarmist even though we have to be and make sure people let's say move into action what are your thoughts there uh from having been in that in quote unquote influencer role and deliberately took a step back on that and focus on other core strengths but of course have seen the algorithm from the inside as well let's say what are your thoughts there on how to reach and reach a bigger consumer group than we're currently reaching yeah I think we just have to use the channels that we have and be able to somehow see how we can be able to work more collaboratively because what has happened in our ecosystem is that um and our industries that we are really working in. So we find we are all doing the same thing but working on our own all looking for the same funds and now even donors are getting exhausted because the donors are having to give so much amount of money to 10 different organizations in Kenya doing the exact same things with the farmers but why can't we get to a point whereby we can actually come together from consortiums and say this is the consortium that is going to be dealing with the consumer education let's work together and see what channels we're going to use to actually give this information to consumers which then takes me back to the issue of research because without research and without data then how do you convince the consumers so I still think that a lot of emphasis also has to be go back to put on research be able to collect the data document it in a language that the consumers can understand and then see how to disseminate not in a siloed way but in a way that's blame the industry.

Koen van Seijen 51:51

And it's a connected question but I'm sorry we take away your billion dollar investment fund but you do get almost magical powers to change one thing only one thing so we're not Aladdin you don't get three you get one wish to to change the food and agriculture system and we've heard any kind of answer to this question from consciousness global consciousness to policy and very specific subsidy answer. So you can take it as broad and as grounded as you as you want but if you could change one thing overnight what would you change I would focus on grassroots organizations and not on the big boys I would focus with practitioners.

Sylvia Kuria 52:30

That would be the one thing I would do I would just say let's just shift the way we do our work because we wonder we we we when we give all the money to these big industry players it doesn't trickle down. Nothing is coming down we're getting the dredges and crumps which are not even able to make a change but I would go down and focus with grassroots organizations work with practitioners and make it more collaborative that's what I would do. Just one thing I would work with grassroots organizations.

Koen van Seijen 52:59

Because that's a big not pet peeve but a big focus point of view as well like why are there so few real farmers part of decision making processes of events of let's say sit at the table of policy like we discussed before sit at the table where things are decided and most things are decided for them and not by them and this would potentially you broke a little point yeah sorry go ahead hello you were breaking a little I didn't hear your last sentence I will repeat you were breaking a little yeah like many things are decided for farmers and not by farmers and one of your focus areas is to change that and get them at the table where things are decided.

The Maize Myth And Kitchen Gardens

Sylvia Kuria 53:43

And sometimes when people actually reach out to me think about it how many farmers I'm not even able to represent the real farmer on the ground because I've been very blessed and privileged to have an education I have access to internet I'm able to speak in a language that many people in the world can understand. But the real farmer is not able to have those chances who is speaking for that farmer who is speaking for them unless we go down and work with grassroots organizations that we nobody speaking for them. But oh we don't want to work with grassroots because they don't know how to do the accounting they don't know how to do documenting they don't know how to write proposals they're not on LinkedIn they don't have the language that we speak but at the end of the day then they always never move out of the rut and sometimes I wonder is it deliberate is it deliberate that we don't want the grassroots organizations to actually build up and be able to have a voice out there? Is it deliberate that the big industry players want to stay up there and never give a chance to the real people the real practitioners who actually have a potential to make a change in our microclimate and ecosystems I think it's deliberate to be honest that grassroots will not be helped and it's only the big people who get all the money and make all the decisions yeah it's probably deliberate and also way more convenient because it keeps the system as it is and it keeps farmers from speaking up and engaging and actually participating which would probably raise a lot of questions if more farmers like yourself would continuously speak up.

Koen van Seijen 55:13

But of course it's also a lot of time is as you said education access to internet access to language which basically disqualifies most of the smaller farmers and so your main magic wand answer would be to give them a seat at the table and focus actually flip the table basically yes that's and flip the table as a final question to to be conscious of your time as well we have this question inspired by John Kemp who usually asks it slightly different but we ask it in this way what do you believe to be true about regenerative in this case organic agriculture that others don't believe to be true? So where in your organic bubble in Nairobi or in Kenya where are you a bit contrarian compared to the bubble?

Sylvia Kuria 55:58

We have this notion that monocropping is the answer to food security it's not that where you go to a track of land and you just have thousands of acres of cabbages and in our case in Kenya it's just thousands and acres and acres of maize and once you have the maze then you have food security and your people have food it's a lie. It's a total lie and when I think about region ag it's really pushing for plant diversity it's pushing for being able to grow different crops food variety doing crop rotation and being able to ensure that you have living goods in the soil at all times and plant diversity I think is actually something that is going to bring more food security than these monocultures that we have been pushing for so long. Like right now in Kenya we actually have some areas of the country where we never received our short rains and it's very unfortunate that it hasn't rained from last year September and in these areas they actually grew maize which is a heavy feeder it needs at least three to four months of rain for maize to actually be able to grow and yet if those areas had actually grown so gum melee that is ready in two and a half months of pumpkins they would be food secure if they had cassava they'd be harvesting cassava and right now would have sweet potatoes so if they had that diversity of being able to grow local indigenous crops that are drought tolerant would actually have food security but no the industry players want to convince us that we have to have maize and maize is the answer to food security it's actually so obnoxious because sometimes when you don't have enough maize now the government is going to start importing maize from Tanzania they'll be importing maize from Zambia and Uganda to make sure that their people are well fed and yet the resources that they're putting out there to import this maize would actually be used to distribute seeds back to semi-arid and arid areas to plant the soccer millets cassava and sweet potatoes and fix our soils just by growing our own indigenous foods. So I think that's an option that people think that monocultures will save us and feed us but they won't they just keep us hungrier.

Koen van Seijen 58:10

When you think about monocultures what do they do they actually mess up the soil microbiome because how do you expect to have a diverse microbiome in the soil with maize day in day out something else they do they increased pest pressure which then now increases the use of synthetic inputs which then now brings about food that is unsafe for consumption but who has ever sprayed the cassava nobody who sprays sweet potatoes no one they don't need to be sprayed they just grow in very poor soils and at the end of it all we have a good heart so that's the notion and is that notion or that the reality now of the short rains haven't come and does maize is nowhere to be found or hasn't grown or hasn't grown to its full capacity and maybe there are some other farms around or farmers that have been growing more appropriate species like you mentioned like the difference must be so stark like of left and right or like and on one side of the fence line or one side of the picture etc is that starting to land more or raise at least questions around are we growing feed or food and are we growing food that actually is appropriate here or or are you let's say screaming against the wind I'm screaming against the wind that's for sure because like uh you know it's very interesting because when I went I hope you haven't planted maize and they all said yes even if the maize we have this notion and say that if the maids doesn't grow too well even the little stocks we're going to use to feed the cows and I'm like why would you do that?

Sylvia Kuria 59:38

Why would you do that on one acre that you're able to plant so many vegetables that would have done well with touch little water so we are screaming against the wind we still don't have it yet and that's why we really have to push in with the policy space get the leaders accountable get the government to actually bring impact to come deep down to the people so that you can actually be able to have a change of mind. So working with extension workers being able to get this information out but it takes time and it's going to be a long tough journey but we have to start somewhere yeah and maybe that's a variety of the question if there was one thing you could change in the mindset or narrative or mind of policymakers what would that be?

Koen van Seijen 1:00:19

What would you like them to see or unsee or unlearn or learn it depends on your would they should they come to your farm like what would be an experience or a notion or a narrative that would potentially shift something in in their at least mindset and then who knows also in their work I think one of the things I would actually push is for kitchen garden.

Sylvia Kuria 1:00:40

And this is something that I really was pushing for especially when I started my journey and somehow it fell off the bandwagon and now I have it back again because I've just realized that is one way of ensuring food security that if every farmer has a chance to learn how to grow their own food I think that would be phenomenal. That would be a one changer and I don't think it's being spoken about enough because we can talk about all these different strategies on how to grow food but if a farmer is able to sustain themselves and their family that means they're also going to be able to have enough food for the community and you know exponential change that we'd find in the environment in nutrition in food availability and security would be mind blowing but we're not talking about it. We're just like myself also sometimes I find myself drawn out to the market and telling the farmers you need to get the money but bringing myself back to where I started the person you're buying from the produce do they have enough food for themselves and the policymakers I remember during COVID the government a small arm of government like in the Ministry of Agriculture visited my farm because they wanted to learn about how to do kitchen gardens and they were really pushing for kitchen gardens during COVID. We just came and went yeah but it's something that we really need to go back to how can we feed ourselves first why do you have colonial crops sorry to say like maize and uh let's call the animal as it is exactly like tea and coffee you have a farmer who has 20 acres of tea and the children are malnourished and this tea they never even get to get the best quality the best quality has to be exported nothing is actually left for this farmer this farmer will never taste the best quality tea that you know that he's actually growing this farmer doesn't know how to grow their own food. They're waiting for tea bonuses they're waiting to be paid at the end of the month from the tea factory and when they get that food they will not even make a choice to go some to buy something nutritious for their family. In fact if you go to those like tea and coffee plantations that's where the highest nutrition is because farmers think that when you grow these monocrops you're going to make money but we have to go back to kitchen gardens how do we grow our own food how do we feed ourselves fast and as a magic wand probably as well every policymaker would it would be really interesting if they grow their own kitchen garden.

Closing Reflections And Listener Requests

Koen van Seijen 1:03:09

This is a magic world we can wish that but it would probably be exposed to the potential the quality the flavor the non-easiness obviously of growing food but also yeah the toxicity of the current system in a very quick way if you're doing that or you're having to do that yourself.

Sylvia Kuria 1:03:26

Yes exactly but I realize anyone who grows their own food is very sympathetic to farmers. The day you grow something and it doesn't do well and you actually buy food from farmers you have a deep appreciation for how food is grown. You have a deep appreciation for how food is grown. So I think it's important that we start with the farmers being able to feed themselves before they feed us.

Koen van Seijen 1:03:49

That's a very interesting yeah I've heard stories as well if you had to verify that in the US large row crops, monoculture very intensive and then they have their own of course obviously not organic and then they have their own market garden or their own garden for their own use which is of course grown organically etc because the difference of course you can argue what kind of drift happens because of the fields around it but it's an interesting notion of many farmers that grow their food for themselves grow them very differently than the stuff they sell to the commodity traders. Not to be annoying here like of course it's I I understand the system and why they're growing that kind of stuff but it's very telling that what they feed themselves often is different if they're growing their own food. Many don't of course and we know the issues with that. Always too flat that's a very it's a very visual reminder of this conversation. I want to thank you so much Sylvia for coming here first of all to share and of course for the work you do attire to advocate for organic farming for the farmers' rights and the farmers challenges and the farmers' opportunities on the continent and of course for being a voice for that as well and using that voice among many other places on our podcast. So thank you thank you very much farmers should grow their own food first. It's such a powerful statement but if you think about it there's such a big disconnect between what farmers grow in many cases and what they sell and what they eat. And many farmers will have and it's such an interesting thing to realize will have a plot for their own food and a plot that they sell to the market. If we can bring that together of course we we have fixed many things. Thank you for listening all the way to the end I'm very curious what you thought of today's episode I'm very much inspired by the entrepreneurship the pivoting realizing that retail is extremely expensive to do and then pivoting to wholesale aggregation which touches a lot more people a lot more farmers a lot more land and then the piece on politics fascinating to see how a number of African countries in this case for especially Eastern I think Uganda has that we discussed it before in this series and also and of course in the counties in Kenya has specific policies around agroecology and we always complain in the West and etc about the non-support of policy I think we can look at the global south horrible term but let's use it to get some inspiration and to get some insights in how to do that and then how to implement the get budget to to go with that because we're still stuck at less especially here in Europe and US with a farm bill and a cup system that mainly supports the conventional agriculture and doesn't support the agriculture you would like. So I'm very curious if this inspired you if it interested you if it helped you in a way to frame thoughts if they're narrative that you're gonna use and as always thank you for listening and hopefully you listen to the next one. Bye bye thank you for listening all the way to the end for show notes and links discussed check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculture.com slash posts if you like this episode why not share it with a friend and get in touch with us on social media our website or via the Spotify app and tell us what you like most and give us the rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify or your podcast player. That really really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time