421 Janet Maro — Farmers are the architects, not the audience

When Janet Maro started building training programs with farmers in Tanzania, she didn't arrive with a curriculum. She asked farmers what they knew, what they needed, and what they could bring to the table — and built from there. That instinct, to treat farmers as the architects rather than the audience, turns out to explain most of what makes Sustainable Agriculture Tanzania unusual: why groups keep meeting and planning years after projects end, why an organic shop opened in Morogoro in 2012 has since seeded eight more across the country, and why a conflict between Maasai pastoralists and smallholder farmers that had turned violent was resolved not through outside intervention but through a simple exchange of manure and crop residues, negotiated by the communities themselves.

LARIS 2026

Latin American Regenerative Investment Summit (Cumbre de Inversiones Regenerativas de América Latina). Be part of the movement that is regenerating the way we learn, invest, and live.

Bogotá, Colombia

May 12 - 14

https://regenerativo.org/en/laris/

Find out more about our Generation-Re investment syndicate:
https://gen-re.land/

Thank you to our Field Builders Circle for supporting us. Learn more here

Transcript

A Special East Africa Collaboration

Koen Van Seijen 0:00

You'll be joined by Brian, the organic guy, and Janet from Tanzania. Janet will share how she grew up around the strong inspirational women farmers in her family on the hills around Mount Kilimanjaro and how she ended up working with smaller farmers throughout Tanzania. How she opened her first organic shop for Tanzanians and why she's so happy she started using the term sustainable agriculture 15 years ago. It has shown to be pretty resilient. Fun intended. Enjoy! This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food Podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities, and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. This episode is part of the Regenerative African series where we interview leading regenerative agroecological entrepreneurs across East Africa. It's a special collaboration with the Organic Guy Podcast and supported by Rutico, a regenerative venture studio rooted in East Africa.

Brian 1:01

Hello, everybody, welcome to a very special podcast episode of the Organic Guy Podcasts. I'm your host, The Organic Guy. Today's conversation is part of our powerful collaborative series that we're calling the African Regenerative Frontrunners, which is a joint collaboration between the Organic Guy Podcast and Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food Podcasts, which is hosted by Kun. And this series is supported by Rutico, which is a regenerative venture studio that is based here in East Africa. This series really exists to bring Africa's regenerative leaders into the global stage and into the rooms where the future of food is being decided. And today we are going to my neighboring country right here in Tanzania to meet someone I believe is a quiet force behind East Africa's agricology movement. She goes by the name of Janet Morrow. She's the founder of SAT, which is a sustainable agriculture Tanzania, an organization that has trained thousands of farmers, reshaped agriculture education, influenced national policy, and even proven that small-scale farmers cannot be just beneficiaries, but can be architects as well. I think when I look at it, Janet is a clear example of what happens when women and farmers can be placed at the center of African food future. So, Janet, thank you very much for making time for the podcast and welcome.

Janet Maro 2:32

Thank you very much, Brian. Thank you for this opportunity and for having me join the podcast. I'm excited to talk to you today and to get to share a bit of a bit about myself, but also about ontology, regenerative agriculture.

Growing Up On Kilimanjaro Farms

Brian 2:49

It's a pleasure. I always appreciate. And as I mentioned, you are one of the people that are leading the agricology movement across East Africa through the amazing work that you've done with SAT. We will get to discuss more about that, but for guys who have interacted with you before, just give us a little bit of a background context about yourself. Just paint a picture for us growing up in Tanzania. Where did you grow up and how was your upbringing like?

Janet Maro 3:16

I'm born in Kelimanjaro on the slopes of the Kelimanjaro mountain, about 2,000 meters above sea level. My early childhood was up on in my home village in Old Moshi. And yes, for us, the traditional Chaga home gardens, I attribute a lot to my upbringing, my growing up. This home garden really nurtured us, it provided for us. And yes, we got to be healthy, we were able to learn. And yes, but the most important part for me was that yes, we always had something to pick and eat from the farm. And this helped me grow up and really have a lot of appreciation for the land, especially since as a child, I remember I used to accompany my mother. But my mother lived with my great-grandmother, my paternal great-grandmother. And so they farmed together. And as a baby, you're accompanying them to the fields. So from the onset from my childhood, I remember accompanying them to the fields. And yes, to the sweet potato fields, but also the home garden where we have the coffee, bananas, the busy alebet trees. We plant beans during the rainy season. Towards the end of the rainy season, there's always yams inside and avocados. So it was this highly heavy integrated farm where we had everything growing inside. And yes, these amazing, incredible women that yes introduced me or nurtured me into farming.

Brian 4:53

Yeah, that's uh that's pretty special as well. So I'm wondering when you were growing up, did you enjoy going to the farm or did you see it more of a punishment?

Janet Maro 5:02

Well, fortunately for me, it was fun. It was fun because I knew when I went to the farm, I always got something there. So you either got some fruit, you had some tree tomatoes, or you had some loquats. So it was always fun to go to the farm, and there was always something to eat there. And also I remember maize was grown in other fields, not in the home gardens. And to get to the place where maize grew, it was a bit a distance, and there it was only mostly the elder, the adult people who went. But I remember when the maize was almost maturing, I liked to accompany them because I knew when I got there, there will always be some maize that you can grill. You can make barbecue maize. So I will accompany, but my mission was to get some maize to make in a small fire on the farm and eat some barbecue maize. So actually, that I did with my maternal aunt because she was very strong, and everybody talked about her being so strong, like physically strong, and really a very good farmer for the maize fields. Yeah, so there was that joy and fun on of it. I know there are places where yes, farming is like a punishment, or when especially in some schools where you have such cases of farming or working in the garden being a punishment. But for me at home, it was yeah, also it was not forced on me. Maybe that's why I found joy and fun with it, because it was not forced. Nobody was forced to do farming, or it was not used that if you made something wrong, then your punishment was to go and work in the farm. It was not like that.

Seeing Soil Degradation In Morogoro

Brian 6:41

Yeah, that's awesome. That's that's great to see. We need more of such stories, I think, because for us, yeah, even here in Kenya, we used to see it as punishment. And especially as you mentioned, there are some schools. Your punishment was to go and dig the land for quite a while. And so a lot of people grew up having a stigma towards agriculture to some extent. But it's good to see that you had such a positive association with the agriculture. So you grew up, you do your education. So I'm wondering at what time do you realize there's these problems that we are having with the current dominant agricultural model that we have?

Janet Maro 7:19

So for me, I remember when I went to Morogoro region, where I live and work. The first thing that struck me, okay, I love Morogoro. We have the Uluguru Mountains here. They're not as high as Kilimanjaro, but they're very beautiful. And so it was very striking for me because it was completely different. These mountains were, I'll say, naked, because there was no really cover or integrated vegetation or agroforestry, like how it was up in Kilimanjaro. So that strike me. It struck me, and also that many fields, Tanzania is a big land, and as you travel around the country, you will see there was more and more increasing tree cutting and clearing of land and all the trees being put away, and then you have all this ample land where plants are planted, plants and mostly maize planted. There was a time when you drove through like Moshi all the way to Challenze. You will see just huge empty fields because it was planted with maize and the maize was harvested, and there is nothing staying on the land until the next rainy season. So for me, I felt like this was not a sign of like food security or also nutritional security, because I asked myself, if you only can grow food here for three maximum four months, and the rest of the month in the year you don't have anything growing. Is what you're growing in that short period of time enough to feed you and your family? And if not, what do you eat for most of the year? Okay, and if you grew maize and the rain was not reliable and the maize did not perform well, then what happens to you? What happens to your family? So I started asking myself these questions. But for me, it was mostly critical on the slopes of the Uguru Mountains where we have the Waluguru people. And so there I saw how the land was bare and how farmers were struggling to try and clear new land because they said the land was not productive anymore, so they have to clear new land higher up on the forest. And so also they got into conflict with the government because it was encroaching of a forest reserve. So that was really something that was a big lesson for me. And I started interacting with farmers as I come from the mountains, so I also climbed mountains a lot. So I took some hikes, and uh, in part during some of these hikes, I would ask the farmers like where they don't have fruits there, and they'll say, Oh, yeah from the 70s, you know, they came with now these synthetic fertilizers, and ever since we have been on this dependency. Without that, our crops were not growing properly or producing well. But then also after some time, now, even when the synthetic fertilizers are used, they're not receiving really any proper productive yields from the fields. And I thought this is a bit very sad. So, my very first input after being on these mountains for several times and already, of course, creating connections with some of the communities there, I thought, wow, okay, I can try, I can we can try to work out on some of the practices we use in Kilimanjaro. And instead of planting one crop, how about we try and to start growing and building back the soil, but also integrating other crops in the field? And that time I can tell you, I did not really have so much knowledge about regenerative agriculture or agroecology, but I thought there are some principles because for me, I thought our farm, it was from the times of my great-grandparents, and I saw I've also grown to be an adult. And this farm has been there, it has been sustainable, and this quality of the soil is incredible. So I thought they there could be something here. We add crop residues, we put farm yard manure in the farm. So with the farmers in Morogoro, we started with we started working also on trying to put crop residues in the fields, doing compost, using farmyard manure and animal droppings to try and add back to the soil and feedback the soil to try and build it back.

Brian 11:44

Yeah, so I'm I'm guessing this you must be very early in terms of talking about sustainable agriculture during during that time. So I'm guessing this is during the early 2010.

Why She Named It SAT

Janet Maro 11:56

Correct. And actually, most people, contrary to what most people think, actually I the name Sustainable Agriculture Tanzania, I put up the name of the organization as well, Sustainable Agriculture Tanzania, and it was all very intentional because uh it was 2010 when you know the constitution of SART was put and the organization was going to be registered. And when I was thinking about the name, I thought, well, the cool there's possibilities to have so many names, but sustainable agriculture Tanzania, uh sustainable agriculture is is a perfect fit. And for me, whether people will come and hijack this word and use it for something else, I don't know. But I will be able to stand and protect why the name Sustainable Agriculture Tanzania.

Early Skepticism About Organic Food

Brian 12:49

Yeah, and you've done an incredible job because it has really grown to be one of the uh strongest organizations that are advocating for organic and agriculture across the East African continent. So that's an amazing work you are doing. So I'm wondering, it's um it's let's say it's 2010, so you decide to start SAT. I'm thinking at that time, what was like the vision you were trying to sell to the people around? And did the people actually buy what you were selling at that time?

Janet Maro 13:48

Well, I tell you, that time it was difficult, Brian. It was difficult because I will try to talk about the practices. So people say, what is sustainable agriculture? And okay, so for me, I would simply describe it with the practices that here we are working to build up the soil, especially on soil that is degraded, and we restore it back and be able to make it productive, but also we are growing healthy food without synthetic chemicals and pesticides. So this is really safe and healthy for the soil, for the environment, for the people. And some people were like, What? What are you trying to talk about? At this age, we should be talking about feeding the growing population. So you should increase yield at any cost because people need to be fed. And I thought, wow, okay, that has been the case before. And what did it achieve? There was already the philosophy of increasing yield at any cost using a lot of intensive fertilizers and chemicals. What has it yielded? Did it really solve the problem of food security and nutrition security? Then people were like, oh, okay. And for others, I remember they'll say, Oh, why try to waste your time? You could do better things. Why walk up to the mountain to these farmers? You could do there's so many other things that you could be doing. Why? And I remember it was, I think, about 2011, 2012, 2012 when we put up the first organic shop in Morogoro. And some of the clients, there were people who would say, Ah, what? Sustainable agriculture, organic agriculture, why? What is food? As long as the belly is filled, it's all that matters. And some of these people, they will come to the shop and shop at the organic shop. And so I asked one of them, and he said, Oh, I'm so sorry. So for him, it was a sad situation because he said he was prescribed that he has to look on what he eats. So he was looking around, and so he had to come and get his food from the sad shop. And I thought, okay, it's a sad thing, but I'm glad that you now will also be an advocate of the importance of what we how we grow our food, but also what food we eat. So because it's from production, from the producer, but also the consumer. What do you grow? How do you grow? But also what do you consume? These two go hand in hand. There is this influx. And I was starting sad at a time when there was a big influx of ultra-processed foods, a lot of imported and dumped food in Tanzania from all over the place. So it was at a critical time. And that's why when we put up the organic shop, the slogan was healthy organic food for Tanzanians. So we wanted to have a place where people know they can have access to healthy, nutritious, chemical-free food. And yeah, that is grown while having consciousness on the environment. But also for the case of Morogoro, the Uluguru Mountains are a very important watershed for water. So that the people who consume the food, they know that the farmers up on the mountain are also protecting the environment and producing ecosystem services, which they benefit even the people downstream because that will improve the quality of water that they get to use in the city.

Beyond Labels Like Regenerative

Brian 17:25

Yeah, pretty much. They say pioneers are always misunderstood because you always have uh this vision of what you're trying to do, but not everybody is going to be on the same page of what you are seeing. So you always have to endure, I think, those first uh few moments by yourself. Some will call you crazy, but you have to keep going. So it's really interesting because part of the series that we are doing, it's called African Regenerative Front Runners. So I'm trying to think like from an African perspective, because sustainable agriculture is in your name and the organization as well. So I'm trying to think do you see the difference between those terms or do you see them as all as one?

Janet Maro 18:08

This is very interesting because I've been in this space now for about 15 years, and I can tell you, for this short period of time, I have experienced so many names come and go. Yeah. And that's why I laugh sometimes and I say, Wow, I'm glad that I never got stuck in terminologies. And I encourage my colleagues at SAT because also SAT is beyond, it's not just Janet. We are many, many of us. So we encourage each other not to get stuck in terminologies and also not to enter in the war on there is also some people who like a lot to compete with the terminologies. So the differences, and that's why sometimes I tell people there was a time when I had people, also some big some multinational companies also trying to use the word sustainable agriculture. And I remember that time some people were looking at me, and some even were coming and saying, Oh, okay, you're sustainable agriculture Tanzania. Okay, we're also doing sustainable agriculture. We should work together. And I asked them, so what sustainable agriculture are you doing? And then you realize for them they're talking about again, some inputs, some synthetic inputs, some herbicides, and I think, wow. So I asked them, what is sustainable about that? So I can tell you, Brian, we can really discuss terminologies, and I'm glad, and I say resilience is resilience, or the name, the name of SAT has been resilient and has survived the terminology and terminologies that have kept coming and going. But in the end, for us, it's really on what we actually do and what we practice. So for us, when the regenerative people come to SAT, they see and they say, oh, okay, but why are you not calling this regenerative agriculture? So when it's agroecology, be it the principles, the 10 principles of agroecology by the Food and Agriculture Organization, or the high-level panel of experts, 13 elements of agroecology. I'm very grateful that really for us, it was you will find that and even more. I can tell you, for example, if you look at the principles of agroecology and the elements, there are things, for example, gender, there are youth, there's some things that are missing, but you will find them at SAT. So regenerative agriculture, agroecology, organic agriculture. And so here again, I say organic agriculture, though you will find we don't have any, you will not find a single monocrop field at SAT. But we have organic certification and we have farmers who are organic certified. We have participatory guarantee system certified farmers using the East Africa organic product standards. But one thing that you'll find in the farms are integrated, you'll never see a monocrop field because some people say, oh, okay, so you're doing organic agriculture. Organic agriculture is only omitting the use of synthetic fertilizers. And I say, well, actually, for us, the farmers, it's not just omitting synthetic fertilizers and having a crop grown organically as without synthetic fertilizers, but it's really the welfare of the people, it's the fair standards, it's the sovereignty of the people. And you will never have a monocrop field in any place where SART has is working or has worked. Because really, farmers have seen the benefit of integration, of synergy across the different crops and also livestock in the system, of the trees and how interrelated this they all are. And this is what sustainable agriculture is for us. And the importance of things like, for example, keeping the land covered is something that is so important yet very underestimated in other farming systems and practices.

What Changed Over 15 Years

Brian 22:08

Yeah, yeah, that's pretty good because I think I like the position that you've taken because now you now are guided by the the core principles, which in most cases overlap between all these three farming systems, right? You mentioned about cover cropping or crop rotation or just incorporating legumes in farming systems. Those are all practices that uh interact with uh all three farming systems. So once you have those principles, that's why when people come to your farm and they're like, Yeah, you should call it regenerative, you already have those principles ingrained in you. So that's pretty good to see. So I'm wondering, you started this in the early 2010s up to now. Do you see any progress in terms of more people adapting ecology or more people wanting to or looking for such agroecology organic products? Are you seeing any positive movements?

Janet Maro 23:33

15 years is long, but also 15 years is relatively short. So when I look now at the progress that has happened in this space, in this period, then I think, wow, it there has been a lot of big progress, big transformation, big change. And I see the number of people increased a lot, the number of organizations, enterprises. It has increased a lot in this span of a little over 15 years. And I remember when we started, it was a very lonely road. Even in the village, what that I was talking about, farmers were like, oh, okay, you come, you work here on foot. We'll go to places and they'll say, Oh, you come working on foot? What can you do with us? What can we benefit? What difference will it make when you know you they see you go walking on foot and you think, wow, okay, I don't have, we we don't have, I don't know, cars or vehicles or anything, but we have these practices that we think they will help us to make a difference. And so these days, we have gone to places that we would have never thought about 16 years ago. We have reached farmers, we have created a network that really, if you would have asked me 15 years ago if that's what I thought that will be today, I would have not even believed it myself. So we have been very fortunate to have received support, collaboration, to have had people who held our hands and really accompanied us in this period. And most importantly, it's the farmers who really believed in us and trusted us that we can walk this journey together. They shared openly with us and learned so much from farmers. When we were developing a training program for farmers, really, the farmers that we piloted with, we asked them what their needs were, but not just what their needs were, but what do they bring in to the table? And you cannot imagine the vast experience and knowledge that the farmers really brought to the table. And we really built up on that. We connected with science, with researchers, and continue to grow this network, this community of practice. And this has enabled us to grow and continue and we continue to grow. The network has grown. We've reached hundreds of thousands of farmers, and that would have not been possible if it wasn't for the farmers who we started working with back in the day and who are our major champions all the way to today. And the biggest, when you ask me what is the biggest success of SAT, one of the things I can tell you is really the farmers that we started working with from day one.

Brian 26:28

Nice. Yeah, yeah. The fact that you are still here and you're having a lot more farmers than you started is just evidence enough that there is a lot more demand for the services and the product you're offering to the people and to the farmers as well.

Building Markets With The Organic Shop

Janet Maro 26:43

And Brian, it has not been just at farmers, yeah. For us at SAT farm, we're uh one of our core values is that uh farmers are at the center. And so everything we center around farmers, nothing for the farmers without the farmers. Yeah. But we have had now uh the enterprises, we have now there's the government and other stakeholders and other actors. We have seen that increase as well. Other organizations, be it new organizations that were established in this period or organizations that existed before, but they transformed into working in the agroecology or regenerative agriculture space, and we've continued to provide and share, interact, network, and exchange with them, which is something we do freely at SAT. And this has this is also what we attribute towards how we have been able to ensure that there's more and more farmers engaged, and also other organizations who help us reach places that we would have not been able to reach.

Brian 27:45

Yeah, that's pretty good, and it's pretty encouraging by what you're doing as well. I read that you have a very interesting relationship with the farmers that you work with, because there's one part of SAT, the way I understood it, of where you work with farmers, and then there's also the other part that you help farmers buy the products that they have and then you sell it in your shop. So you're closing that loop, if you may. So, how would you describe that relationship that you're having with the farmers?

The Secret Behind 95% Survival

Janet Maro 28:14

It was very important because we saw already by 2011 that yes, we had quite uh decent production from the farmers, and there was no really like dedicated market spaces for farmers to be able to sell this produce or for consumers where consumers could really go and have access to the produce that farmers in the network were producing. That's why in 2012 we opened the SAT Organic Shop. And this is not just a shop, but it's a meeting point, it's an opportunity for the farmers to bring their produce, for consumers to source produce from these farmers and to grow agroecological enterprises and organic enterprises. Over the years, this shop these days it acts also as the connecting point for other shops that are established in Tanzania. Right now, there are eight organic shops in different parts of Tanzania established by other people. But in all these shops, you will find that there are products from farmers in Morregoro, but also elsewhere who are part of the network. So we are very grateful also for some of the entrepreneurs and enterprises that have come in this space and established shops and outlets for agroecological dedicated for agroecological products, because it's very important to bridge the gap from production to consumption and all the processes along the value chain, including processing and value addition, which is very important also for preservation and reducing post-harvest losses.

Brian 29:55

Yeah, very important. Because now if even farmers produce and then they don't have somewhere to sell, you just demoralize them. So the next season they won't be able to go into the farm and say, Yeah, I want to practice agroecology that I was told the other day. But if you give them market for the products, then I think they'll be they have a a good moral for them to go ahead and uh practice it. So that's I think that's a very important part of what you're doing. I was also looking at uh some of the projects that you have implemented, and I could see you have up to around 95% survival rate, and that's an envious success rate because most of the projects that are implemented by NGOs and donor organizations, they have uh way below even 30% of our success rate of the project that they implement. So, what is the secret? What is the secret behind you having such a success with farmers?

Maasai And Farmers Find Synergy

Janet Maro 30:52

I've mentioned that farmers are really at the center, and nothing we do, nothing we plan without really engaging the farmers. And I think I attribute most of the successful retention rate of farmers to having them engaged and really being part of the process and like owning this process and not seeing it as, yeah, this is the project, a sad project. And so that's why maybe it has been a bit more successful. And as I said, the very first groups that we started working with are still active to date, even after the projects phased out. And this is something you don't find, as you said, in you don't find in many places. And also, interestingly, even after every end of year, the different groups in our network, they have their group meetings and planning and strategizing for the new year, but also if the members who left and if there will be new members being received and things like that. And for me, I smile, I smile because you see this report and new farmers wanting to join their groups. So you have those cases of new farmers wanting to join existing groups in some communities. So it's after the end of a after the end of 52 weeks, the groups can open up for new members. And it's always nice to see new members joining. And of course, there are cases where you have some members dropping off or leaving or also maybe being deceased, but the retention rates and the survival rate of our groups is so significant that in our last meeting last year, in our last big meeting for the year, you know, the question of now, okay, this is something we could do something beyond just what we are doing. How about we establish? We already have some cooperatives. So for most of the long-term groups, they have established cooperatives, and we are continuing to build and support these cooperatives. And some have established some saving and created cooperative societies, some circles, and they're doing actually pretty well, and it's so impressive. So we don't take it lightly anymore because also we see the potential beyond just having active farmers and being part of a network for a long time.

Brian 33:17

Yeah, pretty interesting. I think for me, one of the best projects that I saw you implementing was the one that you are trying to coordinate the Maasai pastoralists with uh the neighboring farmers where the pastoralists could exchange manure for with farmers, and then farmers could give them a place for them to graze as well. So, can you take us behind the scenes of of such a project? How hard was it for you to convince those two, if you may, like different categories of farmers to work together?

Policy Wins And Implementation Gaps

Janet Maro 33:48

Well, behind the scenes is 2012. 2012, I'm on a mission to look for a place to put the SART Farmer Training Center. And yes, we did see quite a lot of land in different locations, in places where you had rivers and water throughout the year. But then I got to this place near MSai community, and MSai man was disposing of some part of his land, and the other land was still under the village. So, but the this place nobody wanted to buy. So this Masai man was like struggling to sell this area. So I get to this area and I find out that when I get there, I think, wow, okay, first there was no really proper road to get there. I remember I went on a motorcycle, and it was myself, two women, and one of the women was carrying her baby on the back, and the driver who carried me, his name was Kibadachi. So we were all on one motorbike on this mission. But first I started somewhere, and then of course went, and then we carried others because there was no means of transport. So we all were going together. And I thought, wow, but I like this area looks nice. I would like to have it because first it's difficult. And if we are able to transform this area, everybody will believe that really these practices that Sat is talking about are really work because if they work here, they will work anywhere else. And so that was the first thing. But the problem now was okay, but Janet, the neighbors are Maasai. So what do you want to do to put a farming place in the Maasai community? Don't you think you're looking for trouble from the Maasai people? You always be having conflicts unless you put a big fence and I thought putting a fence is not an option. Yeah. But now, fast forward to 2016. We never put a fence. We put up a football ground where now the community members, the Maasai, the farmers will come and play. But 2016, we have a long drought period. During this long drought, there was a lot of cattle that died. But what was striking for me was the conflicts between the farmers and the pastoralists, the farmers and the Maasai. It was violent. It was loss of property, loss of life, loss of cattle. And it was quite shocking. So that time I remember we thought, no, what can we do? We are in this community as well. Of course, the conflict did not happen at our exactly at our place, but it was in other places in the same district. So that's what that's where we tried to think about how we can work together to find a possible solution. So we realized that the processes for conflict resolution were not working. And contrary, there were increasing anger, and we invited some of our Maasai elders and also some farmers to the search center in the end of 2016. And I remember before the meeting, the Maasai people said, no, we don't talk to farmers. And it was the same for the farmers. So I tried to talk to some Maasai elders and also tried to we tried to have different meetings first with the different groups. And then we had a meeting to try and work together to explore what could one benefit with the other? Where could we have synergies? How can we live together? How can we help each other? And in this meeting at the farmer training center, that day in the morning when people arrived and some Maasai people saw, oh, there were farmers. And they were like, Janet, what happened? Why did you call us here? Why did you call us with these people? And I realized it was so bad that they were not talking to each other. And I thought, how will this day go? Fortunately, we had some experiences with participatory approaches. And so there we worked on this day we worked using participatory approaches and working with the two groups. And by the time the meeting was finished, Brian, I saw the people who are not talking to each other, bidding each other farewell and shaking hands. And I thought, wow, there is hope. And that was really a big motivation for us to work on the project, on the farmers and pastoralist collaboration project that we are implementing with the support of Biovision Foundation. And this project really contributed to reducing conflicts in this area to the extent that the district decided to make it an initiative of the district. And in 2023, the president of the United Republic of Tanzania visited this district and she made an award for SAT for the work in for the work and contributions to this initiative of reducing conflicts between farmers and pastoralists using local means, exchanging farm yard manure and crop residues. Such basic and simple things that also participating in the conflict resolution committees, ensuring equitable participation of both groups.

Brian 39:16

Wow, congratulations. You saved a lot of lives and you enabled two communities to live together in peace. So I think that is something that you should be very proud of in terms of just so goes to show like the small things that we always neglect can actually have such a huge impact as well. So congratulations and thank you very much for leading those efforts as well. You mentioned about the president there. So I'm wondering from like a policy perspective, what is the landscape like? Do you feel like the government is doing enough or is supportive of agriculture and regenerative practices?

Major Challenges And Funding Reality

Janet Maro 39:54

Well, there's still quite some way to go. In terms of policy, we have the National Agriculture Policy of 2013. Already there was a statement of organ on organic agriculture, but what is most important is the National Ecological Organic Agriculture Strategy, which is more recent of 2023. And at least this strategy is really on ecological organic agriculture with 12 strategic interventions. It's by the Ministry of Agriculture and was a participatory process because it was developed by a task team that comprised a ministry, but also people from different organizations, including SAT. And so that is there. But I find that it's not sufficient because you know to have policy or strategy is not sufficient. The big question is how do we move from this policy to policy implementation, but to actual practice to action? That is for me what is more critical, more important. And so I say, well, at start we started from the action, and then now there is the policy. But the policy is so broad, it's so big, and has a big ambition. So how does that get implemented? That's a critical question and a critical point. So we need more engagement, but also participation of the government in the implementation of the policy as well.

Brian 41:24

Yeah, yeah. And thank God they have some evidence from the work that you're doing to actually show yes, this college system work or this regenerative agriculture work. So that helps a lot in terms of even the government's willingness to be able to implement such uh policies. So I think in that sense you are such a trail brazer in terms of helping other farmers to adopt those practices. So as we finish, I'm trying to see we've talked about your journey and some of the amazing work that you've been doing with farmers and also giving people access to really good quality food. So I'm assuming this hasn't been easy. You've had challenges along the way. So, what could you share with us? What has been your biggest challenge so far in terms of bringing SAT into the forefront?

Advice For Young Women Leaders

Janet Maro 42:16

Well, of course, challenges are there, and there's so many. First, I we started working in a space where there was no policy, no act, no legal framework for sustainable agricultural, agroecological, regenerative agricultural, organic agriculture. So you can imagine in the beginning, some people were saying, but what is your basis? What gives you the right to do work in this field? It's not the government, it's not in any government policy, it's not in any government directive or guideline. So I'm glad and I'm very grateful we survived that period. And now, you know, there is some legal framework that gives us the legal backing for doing anything on sustainable agriculture and agroecology in Tanzania. The dominant narratives of big, big, high-intensive agriculture and the continuous criticism that yeah, agroecology cannot feed the growing population. We need to do high-intensive agriculture. So this narrative is still so dominant. And I say I'm not part of any of this race, of any of this race and narratives, because agricology sells itself. And this is what motivated me 16 over 15 years ago to put up an organization that works in this space. We're not competing with anyone. We are in this space to show the potential and what sustainable agriculture can do. And with our little contribution, this is what we're offering. So, but sometimes you have people attack you. But as I say, challenges are part and parcel of the process. We have issues of some norms. For example, when we started working with the pastoralist communities, we realized women could not speak in meetings where men were seated. But we have been able to really overcome and come out of these challenges. What still remains is the issues of yes, reliable and sustainable long-term financing. That is something that maybe stands between also being able to scale and reach maybe much more, but still it's it does not stop us because we say whether we are rolling or crawling or walking or running, the most important thing is that we keep moving. And that's all that matters.

Brian 44:44

Absolutely. And thank you for leading the way in terms of through the highs and lows you've had through since you started SAT. So that I'm sure has given a lot of people in Tanzania and across East Africa a lot of heart that yes, the vision I have can be done. So that is uh pretty good. You talked about the norms like the traditional norms that still exist. So I'm thinking there are women or there are girls who look up to your work. I'm sure you've inspired a lot of them, and they want to be in. Involved in transforming the food systems for the better and they don't know where to start. What advice could you give to them?

A Bold 20 Year Prediction

Janet Maro 45:24

Well, I've I'm very grateful. Sometimes I say, I wish I had more people maybe to accompany me in my journey. And maybe it would have not been as lonely in the beginning as it maybe was, but since I was there and I got to experience it, I thought, wow, SAT, we will use Creative Commons. Free knowledge will provide really free and for so more and more people are able to access it, including sharing experiences. I'm not saying that I'm the expert on management, on agriculture, on agroecology or anything, but for the little that I know and have experienced, I share that really and openly. So I encourage other young African women and men, if there is anything that they feel Janet who can share, can accompany them in. I'm very happy and open to share the little that I have. I know starting is difficult. Starting is difficult. The beginning is the most difficult part, but I can assure you, once you make that step and start, you'll be amazed with how many windows, how many doors, how many opportunities, how many people will show up and hold your hand and try to accompany you or want to accompany you. And for that, I'm grateful. I've benefited with that. And so I'm happy to also share that with those that are starting because I know how difficult it is to start.

Brian 46:58

They might feel overwhelmed or afraid, but they should start anyway.

Janet Maro 47:03

Use what is in your surrounding. So, for example, office space. Look, maybe there is an organization that is kind enough to offer you a desk and table. Take that opportunity if it's knowledge. Yes, see the organizations that even we at SAT we provide also free courses from time to time for other organizations, for other startups. So come, let's share and inspire each other. And the most important thing is to take that step.

Brian 47:32

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think in our world where we are full of social media, I think it might not be appreciative or like Instagram worthy to share those small beginnings. But yeah, you just have to accept the fact that yeah, great things start small. So we have to have that art of, you know what, this is where I am, and I'm ready to yeah, pursue the vision that I have. So when we finish here, I want you to give me like a big bold prediction for let's say 20, 30 years from now. How do you see the old sustainable agriculture and uh farming space being those years from now?

How To Connect And Visit SAT

Janet Maro 48:17

20, 30 years is a very long time. That SAT is about 16 years, so we're talking about yeah, almost twice, not almost a bit more than twice the current age. Yeah, but here it's not just a SAT, but really for agroecology, regenerative agriculture. And I see a bright future because the good thing is that this practice is sustainable and builds on in the longer run. So even I see more positive, more positive outcomes even in the longer, longer run. I say at such we we reach and touch lives, we change landscapes, we change environments. And for some of the trees, for example, that we plant this year, some of them in 20 years, that's when they will be at their full potential. So you can imagine those who will be there at that time, how much they will get from these planted trees. Yeah. And the work we are doing today, or what we have done in the last uh over 15 years, might be small or a drop because there's so much more that could be done. But for that that we have done, that little contribution that we were able to do, that in itself has been able to contribute to the transformation of the food system. And we see that as a stepping point or a starting point to even more food systems transformation towards sustainability. Because I'm very glad that more and more people are increasingly becoming aware about the importance of changing how we grow food and changing how we consume and what we consume. So that itself is creating the need for more and more sustainable agroecological, regenerative, organic practices. And this will sustain us in the longer run. Those that those people who will be there at that time, I hope they they come to a world where the environment is better protected, the health of the soil is better preserved and enhanced. The long-term production and productivity of the fields is assured due to sustainable practices that are used in these fields.

Brian 50:38

Absolutely, and I agree. You look forward, let's say 10, 20 years from now, people more people will be aware of how their food is being grown. We will have such uh cool technologies for them to do that. And I think for the last couple of years, the equilibrium flew towards the other side, and as time goes, I think it's gonna come back slowly and slowly. So thank you. Thank you very much for making time for the podcast. Thank you for willing to share your story. Thank you for sharing some insights that only you can share because you've been on the trages, you have experienced all that. I'm guessing there are people who might want to get in touch in terms of feedback or something that they want to share with you. So, what is the best way do you think they can get in touch with you?

Share The Show And Leave Ratings

Janet Maro 51:22

They can visit the SAT homepage on www.kilimo with k-i-l-im-o.org. And also by email, we have info at kilimo.org. And yes, we are happy to share, to exchange, to network, to co-create and collaborate, because that's the secret ingredient for success in the 21st century.

Brian 51:48

Yeah, absolutely. And uh Kilimo is the Swahili word for farming.

Janet Maro 51:53

That's right, it's the Swahili word for agriculture.

Brian 51:56

For those friends of us who are not from East Africa, I guess, don't know Swahili.

Janet Maro 52:01

And of course, we do warmly welcome if those that anybody happens to be around Tanzania. We welcome to visit us in Morogoro at our farmer training center and get to experience, to interact, to share and exchange, and also to enjoy the healthy organic food grown on the farm.

Brian 52:19

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's one of my bucket list things to do when I'm uh in Tanzania. So I have to make to Sat to experience it for myself. Yeah, Santi Sana. So thank you very much for listening to the podcast. Really appreciate it. Hopefully, you got a few great insights from uh Janet and yeah, till the next podcast, remember to be organic.

Koen Van Seijen 52:45

Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website, investinginregenerativeagriculture.com slash posts. If you like this episode, why not share it with a friend? And get in touch with us on social media, our website, or via the Spotify app and tell us what you like most. And give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. That really, really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.