431 Diogo Pinho - Why Europe's largest silvopasture system is collapsing and how grazing fixes it

Diogo Pinho started his scientific career in the first DNA sequencing lab in Portugal, then did a hands-on PhD on the soil microbiome of cork and holm oak, studying why the trees get sick, before spending two years with Biome Makers, a soil microbiome analysis company, running labs and translating bacterial and fungal profiles into colour-coded, farmer-readable reports for growers around the world. Three years ago, a chance conversation at a farm visit twenty minutes from where he was living led him to Monte Silveira, a 700-hectare farm in the Alentejo, where farmer Joao Valente had been testing regenerative practices for years. Diogo came on board as head of research, hired two more scientists, and is now coordinating fifteen different research consortia — universities, policy makers, and environmental associations — all running in parallel on one working farm.

Portugal produces 70% of the world’s cork. And every year, the Montado, the vast savanna-like silvopasture system of cork and holm oaks that makes that possible, and that once covered much of the Mediterranean, is losing between 4,000 and 5,000 hectares. Not to disease, exactly: the disease is just the final hit on a tree already too weak to resist. The underlying cause, Diogo says, is simpler and more fixable than most people realise. The Montado is a system built by human management, and the one thing it was always managed with — grazing animals cycling nutrients back into the soil — has quietly been removed. Bring the animals back, do it well, and the trees can recover.

In this episode — recorded walking the Monte Silveira land on a mild May morning, with horses and sheep audible throughout — we get into how Diogo went from genome sequencing to working on a regenerative farm, why he sees the Montado’s decline as a chronic disease rather than a single crisis, how soil organic matter went from 1% to 3% in seven years without importing fertility, what a clover carpet growing underneath intensive almond trees is doing to herbicide use and nitrogen budgets (and why the 8,000-hectare conventional industry next door is already paying attention), and how a transition finance programme for twenty neighbouring livestock farmers is quietly building a model that could scale well beyond one farm.

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Transcript

Montado Crisis Explained

Koen van Seijen 0:00

The science is pretty clear. Cork oak trees in the montado need regenerative grazing. Otherwise, they slowly die. The montado, the biggest man-made, managed silver pastoral system in Europe, is not really managed anymore. Imagine it's a funny like ecosystem with lots of oaks, among them the famous cork oak trees, and grazing animals underneath. This used to be present all around the Mediterranean. And now only in Portugal, Spain, a bit in France and Italy. And it's suffering of climate weirding, obviously, but also from the lack of animals and the lack of proper grazing. Today we walk the Montato with a scientist who was the first who sequenced the oak genome and now spends his time studying regenerative grazing and the positive effects on the Montado. And he's designing transition finance programs for the neighboring livestock farmers who are curious about the transition but can't really finance the transition yet. We also talk about the intensive almonds industry. The farm is surrounded by 8,000 hectares of them. And how one of the research plots is turning all of the conventional wisdom on its head. Yes, you can push these systems very far in terms of regenerative practices, and yes, it's more profitable. Wait, what? The conventional industry is taking notice. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food Podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities, and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Welcome to another episode.

Meet the Scientist

Koen van Seijen 1:32

We started walking. It's already not fresh anymore, but also not hot. It will get hot today. It's mild. It's mild today compared to what it will be in the four or five hours. We're walking, as you can hear. You will hear some animals, you will hear hopefully a lot of birds, some horses and other creatures around, and we're here with Diogo. So welcome, the head of what is your official title actually? The head of science and everything else at the farm?

SPEAKER_03 2:03

I coordinate the research activities in Montsilveira.

Koen van Seijen 2:09

And so welcome to another walking the land. And we always start with a personal question: what brings you here? Not just on this walk this morning, but how come from all the there's some horses around some all the different career paths? You're coordinating, I think, 15 different research projects now on one farm. We'll get to that. Why that's important, why that's interesting, why that's difficult, why it's fundamental. But how come you end up in quite a remote place? It's close to Spain, it's not, it's a couple of hours from Lisbon, we're not talking the middle of nowhere, but there are easier paths, ways. There are office jobs and other places that are probably quote unquote more comfortable. How come you ended up here and spending most of your waking hours figuring out research consortia and things like that?

SPEAKER_03 2:58

So I always was, and I am a person that I like to do things like in let's say real conditions. That's already a big thing because in research and academia it's often more focused on not real conditions, getting, let's say, founding, and then the focus is a little bit different, is essentially, and it is also important to write knowledge and share the results through scientific papers. But I also was, let's say, I also lived like most of my time in the city, but even my grandparents they had a small farm, and I always played with animals, played with their plants. So I was somehow always involved in this part. It was family farming, but I had contact with this kind of activities.

Soil Microbiome Journey

SPEAKER_03 3:53

And then just I did my bachelor and my master's in biotechnology, also started to go to food biotechnology.

Koen van Seijen 4:05

Did you pick like biotechnology with already food and agriculture in mind?

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Or no, no, I started like more focus on let's say the future career, because always my dream was about it's the fence people, we're not being intact.

Koen van Seijen 4:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

Was about like the molecular biology and related with food. So basically in my masters, I brought, let's say, both worlds. So my master's was mostly focused on soil and to understand how the bacteria and fungi that live actually where we are now in Montado. So the bacteria and fungi that live in the roots of cork oak and home oak, they were related with the decline of the cork oaks. And then a few years later, I started working like on soil microbiome. I started that say my scientific career in the first DNA sequencing lab in Portugal.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

I had the pleasure like to sequence the first Portuguese human here in Portugal to sequence the Corcoke uh genome. Wow. So it was When was that?

Koen van Seijen 5:34

Just to give a bit of uh perspective, because you seem 18, but you're not, obviously. No. It was 15? 2015, sorry, 11 years ago. Oh, 15 years ago. 15 years ago. 2010, 2011.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

And then on the 2015, my supervisors challenged me to do to engage in a PhD. And my first sentence was, okay, I think I have the skills, but I needed a practical PhD. I need to be in the field doing research, applied research. And then the focus was very similar. It was like to study the soil microbiome of cork oak. And then I also spent some time in the UK doing the same work but in the English oak. In a different, a slightly different decline because here in Portugal we have mostly the chronic coke decline. So it takes years and years for the tree to die. In the UK, they have a very big uh is because of the fox. Ah, because you like chicken. Just to take the fox to release the fox from outside from here.

Koen van Seijen 6:51

Okay, so there's a little device we see just for people because you're not seeing this. I'll take a picture. We might share it. We'll get back to the corkog people, don't worry. We promise no chickens were harmed in this exercise.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

There are chickens that are safe in a little box.

Koen van Seijen 7:06

Yes. Close. And then there's another little trap next to it to catch foxes. And then to release them beyond the fence. They will get through this by the way.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

Yes.

Koen van Seijen 7:17

Easily. Oh, deers can jump. Yes. Crazy. So I mean. And so there's a slow decline of cork. Oh, is that then, and then we get to the English part, but is that so slow that people are you can hear the rooster? That's people are accepting that it's like this is quote unquote natural, or is it still very worrying for an industry that's super important here? Of course.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

It's very important production and industry, even for Portugal and for Spain. Roughly, Portugal produced 70% of the worldwide corks.

Koen van Seijen 7:53

7-0 people, 7-0, yeah. That we put in the bottle. In the bottle. So it is a huge and all kinds of other things, like it's insulation material. It's an amazing material because you can keep harvesting it. And they have been declining and suffering.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

They decline in a very slow path, but still, in the last two decades, we are losing like per year more or less to between four to five thousand hectares of montado.

Koen van Seijen 8:54

Wow. So it is quite uh to that because it's protected, you cannot put intensive elements, you cannot, of course, after it died, yes, which is uh this is for sure a very difficult answer, but it's a very easy question. Is it reversible? Because you've been studying that for quite a while now, actually on an active farm and you planted a lot of oak and you have a lot of old oak we pass by.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

Is there ways to mitigate to or is it climate change and yeah, that's I think what happened and what is happening is like there is like uh montado was a system that was built, and what happened before was like montado was more managed. We can reverse this situation if we improve the techniques of grazing that we use nowadays. Because what is happening is like even for economical efficiency, you put the animals outside of the system, or actually you don't put animals outside, let's say that. You put them in yeah, you separate we separated the true what is forest, what is agriculture, what is the livestock, and the nature doesn't work like that. And the idea is, and this is what is happening, for example, here in Montsilveira, is like we are able to recover the montado. The main, let's say, advantage of having animals in montado is to foster the nutrient cycling. So if you have better soils, fertile fertilized soils, you have more nutrients that then can be assimilated by the trees.

Koen van Seijen 10:34

So I think there is so the trees are balanced, yeah, are suffering because of the lack of animals or the misman and/or the mismanagement.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

And also because the rainfall partners also change. Of course. So imagine, for example, for an oak, if there is like a drought here, the home oak and cork oak, they have the capacity to resist. But if this one happens two years or three years in a row, the tree will be very fragile. And what happens is, as we are talking about a chronic disease, like for example, as in humans in diabetes, there is no a single factor that kills the tree. It's an accumulation of external factors like climate change, death by a thousand cuts, right? And stuff like that. What is happening in the month is like there are a lot of focus on the fungal and the bacterial diseases, but actually these diseases normally just happen just because the tree is already so weakened that it is easily attacked by this kind of biological threatens.

Koen van Seijen 11:44

Very similar conversations we've had in Salento, in Puglia, in Italy, around Ixilella, the olive disease, where it's all the focuses on the disease and the fly that brings it, etc. Well, quite a few people now, of course, are asking the question you know, why is a tree so sick that disease, whatever disease, even if it's very lethal, will hit it. And and now the realizations, of course, olives are not meant to be in big monocultures, are not even meant to be in in the sun. They should be in shadow. They should be under other trees, they should be in symbiosis with a lot of uh other, and definitely not in a desert-like environment where we plowed and sprayed everything underneath. And so, of course, they get sick, like it's a miracle they were still alive, basically. But you see the difference here, like in managing, or get back to your journey. But what was then you said, okay, I wanted a very concrete case for my PhD. I don't want it necessarily to be an theoretical exercise in some kind of university lab or university farm, even. What did you do?

SPEAKER_03 12:48

So basically, I was able to identify what we call like bioindicators, so bacteria and fungal, that I could predict if a montado area or if a specific tree in the UK was prune to develop and start getting the symptoms. So it was like the founding that uh that I got in the PhD, always focused in soil microbiome, and after that I was invited to join this company, Biome Makers.

Koen van Seijen 13:23

Yeah, we had Adria and I'm blanking on the other name. We'll put them in the show notes below, people, but we had them twice on the podcast before. Very interesting, one of the earliest companies in that space, I think Spanish originally, but a lot active in the US as well, where you spend a lot of.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

They started in an incubator, actually the leader in DNA sequencing machines. And and then most of the work was developed in the US, and now they are spread worldwide.

Koen van Seijen 13:49

How long did you spend with them? And what did you you spent a lot of time in airplanes?

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Traveling, what did you my main function was like to lead and to coordinate the activities in the labs? So it was like not so focused on research, but still we did some research to develop better the analysis, the software, and stuff like that. And we received samples all over the world exactly to analyze the microbiome profile, bacterial and fungi, and to provide to the farmers, let's say, a farm-friendly report that the farmers could take it, understand it, we put it like in a color scale.

Koen van Seijen 14:33

Yeah, yeah. So I was gonna ask what does a farmer-friendly report mean? Because many labs will send you something. Honestly, I don't think most people, unless you have a PhD in soil DNA, have a clue of what it actually means and what they should do differently.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

If you think, even for example, the plants, we can see them, we know some of the names, but most of the people don't know of the name. Imagine when we are talking about of thousands of different bacteria species and fungal species, it is impossible to understand all that. So basically, what uh Biomakers does is like digest all this information, put it in a functional report. For example, if I have more biocontrol agents, you how is my carbon cycling in the perspective of the microbiome? That is, I think, is amazing because even in the farming or in the forestry, if you have a healthy soil, that means you are working good to promote the microbiome. Because the microbiome, let's say, is the first trophic layer of this soil web. Yeah, of course, the first is the plants because they release all these root exodates to feed all the soil.

Koen van Seijen 15:49

But it's like the same in our body, in our gut. The first are probably the food you eat, but then the other layer is okay, how do you actually absorb it into your body? Or the first is maybe your intestines, but without the life in your gut.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Actually, if you want like a very nice uh technology, is think the soil as the Wall Street. The soil is like a trademarket. So the plants they need stuff, the soil biology need other stuff. What they do, they trade stuff. So the plants put sugars and other compounds that will be used to feed all this microbiology, and on the other hand, the microbiology release the nutrients that then will feed and their barter, right?

Koen van Seijen 16:35

I think it was Toby Kears of SPAN, friend of the show, mentioning it's really an economy. There's a barter deal, like mycelium siding is probably not a right word, but where to allocate resources, where to not, where to save, where to bring for if you don't want to complex the economic word, you can put is a change of favors. Yeah, yeah, but I think I I mean we're in an investing in regenerative agriculture. Any excuse to use economic terms, not because I think they're so important, but if we can inspire finance world, that actually one of the most advanced economies in the world is under our feet. And so powerful to imagine that. So then you were traveling the world, getting labs up and running, monitoring them and guiding that, etc. What made you come back to Portugal? You're Portuguese, obviously. You and end up here. It was a spectacular place, but very different from the very different airport live.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

So then I worked two years in Biomakers, and then I was also invited to come to this region in Castelo Branco to a co-op that my main rule was to focus again in soil microbiome specialists. And during one of these visits that we did uh in different farms in Portugal, I was lucky to met uh Joel.

Koen van Seijen 18:15

Random, because it's 20 minutes from where you were living at the time. One of the most innovative farmers in Portugal, we can say, like at least among the Champions League, let's say. Yeah. That's really quite random.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

It was random, but like the stars aligned something, I don't know.

Koen van Seijen 18:31

But did you immediately immediately remember when you met? Did you immediately connect?

SPEAKER_03 18:37

We start talking about the soil, so the soil put us together, and it was like love at first time, so we keep talking and so on, and then like until deep in the night, and yeah, you didn't know time was for passing by almost love at first soil, yeah. Yeah, and and yeah, and again the stars align again, and he invited me because Jean is very curious and he always testing different stuff. But one big thing that was missing was like to get all this data, so he felt, okay, I'm doing all this stuff, yeah. I can see by my own eyes, but I'm losing data. And it was when we reached, let's say, a point, okay, one of these crazy ideas, let's hire a researcher for the farm.

Koen van Seijen 19:26

It's been coming back a few times now in the podcast. We've done recently an interview of Max Clusters, who is head of the research and foundation at Benedict Bozel, so the Fink Foundation. Also, there's there's so much happening, so many universities are interested, so many consortiums that of course the farmer he or she cannot really manage that. Like it's not, especially in farms like this, where 10,000 things are happening at the same time. So you came on board, and I'm imagining already a few research projects happening, yeah, and then you expanded it drastically.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Let's say some collaborations with universities, and my main, let's say, task was like to organize all these ownerships and data and start building something that also had a purpose. But at that time, regenerative agriculture was a romantic story, so it still is, I think. Yeah. Romance, I think we need romance in the world. We need stories, we need romance, yeah, yeah, yeah. But still, we need to somehow professionalize this kind of data to show to other investors that it's possible to produce to be ecological balance and also economical balance.

Koen van Seijen 20:40

So that's the idea like that's your those are your criteria basically when you select other research projects, apart from that you want to know more and understand more of how all of these systems are working, to focus on those three things ecologically balanced, balanced and the social part, and social part. Yeah. And so now you are running 15 different yeah, actually 16. Because when you drive on here, it's very interesting to see. First of all, you drive through, and we'll get to that, like some very like intensive almond orchards, which is very silent. Like I noticed I was driving this morning, the windows down. I noticed already yesterday, but then I wanted to retest. And then the moment you come on the farm here, you start hearing a lot more birds. So you see some very intensive almonds, which are very financially driven decisions. It's not bad, or it's not like the decisions haven't been made badly. But if you look at the soil, if you look at the trees, if you hear the absence of sound, if you see the soil erosion, you've had a very wet winter, and most of huge gullies between the trees, they're obviously not between the lines, they're obviously not on key line. A lot of the soil ended up on the road. You can see that actually. You were talking yesterday about the amount of treatments compared to some control plots you have. There's a lot of, let's say, industrial ag around you. Yeah, you need data. But to still show that you can have similar economics, preferably with less risk. Exactly. If you can have that balance, then there's no reason, but we might get to reasons why they won't do it. But there's no reason why these financially focused, purely financially focused institutions wouldn't start implementing things. But for that, it cannot be a romantic region. It has to be backed up. If you drive up here, you see a lot of little signs of all the research pieces you're doing, like this plot, and it really is a playground almost in the best use of the word, and a platform. You're using this farm really as a research platform because there are 15, 16 different consortiums, different universities, and coming in, all of these groups are studying in and coming and visit, and it must be super. Fun, but also super chaotic to keep the line in that and say, Okay, we're also a running farm. In the couple of years you've been here now. Are you feeling you're getting to a point where you can say, Okay, we can start talking to the neighbors or to the financial institutions behind the neighbors to start engaging and saying, Look, this is what we found, this is what we see. It's not just research, it's actually becoming quote unquote production. Are we at a point there in this landscape where you can have those conversations with neighbors and say, pure on economic and risk grounds, we can have we should have a conversation?

SPEAKER_03 23:20

I think the stars align and then again, not for the better reason, but with this crisis of fossil fuel that will increase the fertilizers, I think even already, like it's

Scaling Regenerative Grazing

SPEAKER_03 23:32

exploded. Unless you bought it and you have futures, you're so the economics they need to rethink their Excel files. So essentially it is they need to put like some cells there in the middle where the ecosystem services that this kind of farming uh provides pollinators, biocontrol agents, even for example, the cover crops to decrease the amount of fertilizer. Because imagine you in your cover crop you include a legume that will fix nitrogen in the soil. But are they connecting those two things? Like you're saying, it's like very logical, of course, because you put a legume and there is a lack, and that's why, for example, one of the projects that we have is Montregen App that is only focused on knowledge transfer. So we don't do, let's say, any specific research. Basically, what we are doing is like all these European projects and national projects. What we do is like we have all this information. We now we have funding to start spreading this kind of information that, for example, will happen this Saturday with the event related with Montregen Hub, that is exactly to bring people together with different perspectives from economics, from ecology, from forest, from farming, from livestock, to put them all together, exchanging experience, and see okay, it is possible to do different and still be resilient in terms of economics. And I think it is something that we are working already, have quite a lot of data, even for example, where we are in the Montado, even with the animals, all these rotational grazing that we do have been enabling us to increase, for example, our herd. And why? Because the animals, even they graze, the animals promotes grassland growth. So what happened is it is a wind cycle. What does mean if you do the grazing in a correct way, so if you graze, don't overgraze and let the system or the soil or the ecosystem to rest, the next year the amount of biomass, of plant biomass of grassland will increase. If you do it year after year, that means you can put more animals in your system. If you have more animals, you have more resources to sell and to have more economical return. At the beginning, I will not lie, just uh it's not easy at the beginning, but then you start to get used. I think but I think it's as everything in life, when something changes in your life, you need to start to adapt, but by the end, you get price.

Koen van Seijen 26:20

You have the data, and when you see it with your own eyes or at a neighbor, but I'm gonna push back a bit. I think what makes agriculture so interesting and regenerative forms of agriculture is that you have those win-win. Specifically, we see actually around animal agriculture, but the win-wins are very strong. We just had, depends if it's out already, Francisco of the land group really emphasizing that. You have, I think, 30% potentially more animals depending on your pasture, you have lower costs, etc. But when people hear that, I think farmers and also investors, like they come from a world, the current agriculture world and the current investment world, it's there's a fixed pie, which is actually shrinking because of tensions and stress and water stress and climate stress and financial stress, et cetera. And we have to divide that fixed pie that is shrinking. So there's the notion of scarcity versus abundance, and then you come and say, actually, you can have more animals. So yeah, it's not easy, but and that seems too good to be true, and it seems almost naive. Like, how is that possible in a system where I've been fighting for years and every year it's slightly less, or it's slightly different, or it's suffering more, or whatever, fuel prices, and I have to pass even more, and animals are getting more sick, and the veterinarian is not getting cheaper, and blah blah blah. Do you get that kind of response from people? Like, yeah, dreamy Lala Land, romantic.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

Or do you say, actually, look at look at my like how do you respond to people the most common answer, and uh but I think it is a worldwide answer, is like it works because it is in your place. This is like normally what happens, but then we explain, we also want people to come because one thing is like to see some slides in a room or something like that, no, or a movie here to the farm and see by their own eyes, and then we take the opportunity to show all the numbers or the scientific, the ecological, the economical numbers that we get using this kind of practices. One very pleasant result that we get, especially here in Montado, in the project, we had an assessment of the flora community and the fauna community, and for us it was very pleasure to know. We have species in Montado that the guy that did the assessment was like so amazed because he just saw some plant species in books, and it was like the first time in his life that he saw, I don't remember the name of the plant, but I know it is uh endangerous species. But this for us is very make us very happy and give us more strength to continue because we know okay, we are doing something in the economics because we need money to rent the farm, but at the same time, we are providing the conditions for this kind of species to thrive at the same time on the same land.

Koen van Seijen 29:06

It's not that you put it together next to the protected area or the huge fence around, and now we're quote unquote rewilding. No, you're creating the conditions, which I think is the perfect way to say it. You're facilitating life that wants to come back. So there's a seed bank waiting for moments to throw.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

We need to create the conditions for make life back again to these seats that are just waiting for the perfect conditions.

Koen van Seijen 29:29

And you have a researcher that couldn't believe his or her eyes than plants that they've only seen in books, which is a very hopeful message. It's a very not romantic but very hopeful message.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

So not everything is lost, there is still a way to reach the balance between economics and the ecological. When I say economics, I also want to always bring like the social part because it is important because without people, also this kind of project that they don't.

Koen van Seijen 29:59

You only have robots working here, right? No. Yes, yes. We have robot ships that do the grazing. And in rural areas where obviously all farms, almost all farms are, at such a point of okay, this makes sense financially as well from a point of view that you can hire people, pay them. We had a conversation in Umbria in Italy, where they said, Yeah, we're paying way above living wage because we want people to be able to go to the bank and get a mortgage, and we want to pay, be able to pay year-round. So people don't have this super seasonality because we need a core team that's going to be here for a while, not just volunteers, which are amazing, and interns, etc., but people that build up this knowledge over time. Can make a life of this and also can read the landscape after a while. Like after X years, we don't have, unfortunately, in many places anymore the 40, 50, 60 year knowledge of a place which, yeah, remember when we planted that there, it didn't really work because of actually underground there's this, etc., etc. And but we need people on the land, together with all the data and the science and all the sensors and the drones, to have a bit of perennial knowledge, let's say. And also for you and others working here for Zwao, like to have other people around, like not just one guy on a tractor that manages 5,000 hectares and that's it. And then his wife needs to have a job offside because actually financially doesn't really make sense. Do you see that as well? Like, how many people do you have around, like on the research side, weekly, daily, monthly? There must be so many people passing by, staying over, putting soil probes in the ground, acoustics around. Like, how does that work in a daily, in a daily matter?

SPEAKER_03 31:32

I'm already working in Montsilver for three years, and with all these projects, I also needed help. Luckily, I also found people that were willing to come to the rural area. Actually, also with the same passion that is okay. I like science, but I need practical science. So we were able also this year to hire two more people for the research, which is great in both sides.

Koen van Seijen 31:59

We can do more and we can get more funding to keep running the RD uh because there's an interest for department consortia from European money from universities in real living labs like this. Like is there are they knocking on your door compared to a couple of years ago? Do you see a change?

SPEAKER_03 32:16

Yeah, and also I see that change because even, for example, the European programs, the research programs, like mostly the Horizon Europe, already one of the requirements is to put farmers in the center and bring all kinds of stakeholders. So that means researchers they need to come to the farm and see what are the pains and create solutions that then can be applied in the farm. And this is also one of let's say my daily tasks. It is call for farmers, come here, let's build this for researchers. Yeah, sorry, for researchers, and farmers, yeah. And farmers also actually we have we started last year a project that is focused on regenerative grazing as a tool to regenerate soil health. Yeah, so we are building here in the Beira Vaisha a living lab that actually is putting together 20 farmers, researchers, the policy makers, the environmental associations, so a lot of different perspectives to understand what are the pains and which kind of solutions we can build together, not only let's say in Montsilveira, but actually thinking in landscape perspective. So to think in the region and not only in uh in our farm because we already know it works. Now we want to multiply this one in other farms.

Koen van Seijen 33:54

So you feel comfortable like with how far you got, and we'll ask Joao, of course, as well with regenerative grazing, but also with the other things you do. You can say, okay, we're getting to a moment now where we can not advise, but we can help others that are ready to like okay, these are the 10 mistakes to avoid. We don't know exactly what to do, but we know many starting points. We know what to look for, we know what success looks like, we know what failure looks like. If neighbors or people in similar contexts with similar soils, etc., maybe get over their anxiety of saying, Hey, yeah, that only works there because it's you or because it's your farm. No, I would like to try as well. You feel comfortable saying, okay, we know what the first steps are, yeah, and we know what not to do, and we know where to get the genetics, and we know.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

And also when positive things of these kind of research projects, focus on the living lab, is like we give to the farmers financial pillow, so even they will test, even something goes wrong, but they will have our let's say consulting to get the best result. But even something goes wrong, they don't lose. So it is an opportunity for at least these uh 15-20 farmers to experiment and see by their own eyes, their own machines, their own animals, that it is possible to graze and have the economical return and also have this ecological uh return. And how is it structured? So, what happened is like in the first year they received the 100% money that is allocated to this project, and then we do like a yearly assessment. What we are focused is like we will have training sessions, yeah. So the farmers they need to attend at least two-thirds of these training sessions. If they didn't, we decrease a little bit. So it needs to be is not free money. We need to engage somehow to make sure even the project and their experience, it is good because the first experience it is the most important. If something goes wrong at the beginning, it is not 100, but 99% sure they will not move to these practices. That's very exciting. What do you see as the biggest risk there? I don't see risk, I see like more challenges. Okay. That will be the training. Because imagine for us, of course, we help other farmers, but for us to provide this kind of training and enter in their farms, in their lives, is like a technical challenge and social challenge. But still, the first step is done that is they are happy to enjoy to join consortium, to join the project. Yeah, and I'm thinking in the future, let's see.

Koen van Seijen 36:52

If this works, you could even think at some point, okay, we're training another 20, there's a small payment up front, and then there's a cushion in case there's a huge drop in production or a massive drop, whatever disaster happens, like it almost becomes an insurance, a transition insurance at some point, not now, but that that will be also more capital efficient because the money will only be used if um if there's uh uh risk in the transition or if there are if something happens in the transition, but then you can start to scale up significantly. Very interesting. And that will start soon.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

Already started in October. Now in June, July, we are going to start doing the co-creation workshops where we are going like to talk together what they need, what are the challenges, what are the risks to avoid possible surprises.

Koen van Seijen 37:46

And they're all montado grazing farms basically.

SPEAKER_03 37:49

Mostly, yes. We also have some that are, let's say, grasslands themselves without trees, and others also with olive growth. So integrate the animals in the permanent crops. Very cool. Besides the livestock, we also have a lot of different research focused on the crop production. So, like testing, for example, one of with the University of Coimbra, that is agroecology for wheats, that is essentially work with different cover crop mixes and different term cover crop termination techniques to see what is the best balance to manage the wheats in a better way that they will not influence in a negative way the production.

Koen van Seijen 38:37

Which is interesting, you don't use or you eliminated the word elimination. No, because I thought I know because it's an interesting already language-wise, it's interesting. Because you manage weeds, they have a role, but you don't want it. Yeah, you don't want and because you're fully no-till, very low soil disturbance. So you need like weeds is a challenge.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Yes.

Koen van Seijen 38:57

And and so you need to figure out ways of managing to not negatively influence the production of your cash crop in this grain. Because just people will listen to one of you as well. But what besides the animals, you have, of course, the goats, which is another project, a joint venture. You have a lot of pigs, some cows, sheep. What are the annual crops you grow?

SPEAKER_03 39:19

We grow mostly cereals like wheat, rye, yats, and also legumes, chickpea, lupines, black eye pea, fava bean, so it is different usually together as well, right? Together. So two years ago we start doing intercropping, so we grow two different crop species in the same plot, yeah. So row by row. And the idea is as nature, we don't have, let's say, monoculture.

Intercropping and Keyline Planting

SPEAKER_03 39:48

Yeah. So we also try to mimic what nature teaches. So what we do is like we have the main production, we are doing the new plantation, so we already have trees. What we are doing is like to increase the number of trees per hectare. But the way we plant it is in the key line. So that in the future, and now what is happening when we have like this year, a very heavy rain, instead of creating these erosion roads, we spread the water, we slow down the water, and we keep what is very difficult but very important to build that is the organic matter in the soil. Otherwise, with this huge amount of water, something that takes years to build, you can lose in one hour.

Koen van Seijen 40:36

In one hour, and also, I mean, you you cannot see people, but I just I took a picture, we'll put it in, but there's a like a sort of snake line through you see a number of mature oaks, you see a nice pasture, and you see a sort of snake going through, which are planted on key line, meaning you can look at your hand. People have done permaculture and other classes that they've definitely know, but it's on the level of the terrain, which is difficult to see because the terrain obviously slopes. So you do it with laser or with some kind of device to make sure that the water that hits that line will start spreading left and right instead of running down.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

So you have better or you have even distribution of this water, and also because you are spreading the more the water, you also promote more infiltration. That otherwise, if it is very concentrated in an erosion line, is like a highway.

Koen van Seijen 41:25

It will take everything, like you said, you can lose your work of 50 years in uh in an hour. But anyway, sorry, going back to the annuals and the mixing and the intercropping. It's funny that not funny, but like why did you start doing that two years ago and not earlier? Did you not feel comfortable before?

SPEAKER_03 41:40

No, we start to do it two years ago in large scale. So imagine what

Scaling Mixed Crops With Livestock

SPEAKER_03 41:44

we normally do is we test these kind of practices in one, two hectares. So we start and we're like we advise any farmer to do, right? Yeah. That is start small to go bigger.

Koen van Seijen 41:55

What made you comfortable to say, okay, we go all in?

SPEAKER_03 42:00

What happened was like in the same piece of land, we can take the advantage, let's say, of these two species. Imagine if you are growing wheat with vet, for example, yeah. The vet will provide the nitrogen that the wheat needs. And at the same time, there are some species of veg that they like to climb. When the wheat starts to grow, the stem of the wheat will be used to support, and the vet will be happily climbing the wheat. And what happens is imagine for some reason the wheat didn't perform very well because there was like a lot of rain. We still have the vet that we can use, for example, to sell it or to use in future plantations, for example, to improve the pasture. You are the risking because you are putting in the same plot, and actually, if you look to these crops individually when we seplete them, like we see them to seplete because you need to separate, you need to filter, because of course it's not that you can send everything together to what we saw if you convert, let's say, the number of individuals of production and the area, actually, you reach the same, let's say, proportional quantity that a conventional farm produces.

Koen van Seijen 43:24

Yeah, so just to summarize it, yes, they were standing on one of your half pivots, let's say, or your pivots, and what you're seeing there were two like mustard seeds fetched, I think, together. Yes. And if you would, of course, at that point it's not the same amount as a monoculture field. Yeah, you need to be able to do it. But percentage-wise, you're beating that easily, and you have two crops on the same line. So it's I don't know, 75. If you count in absolute tons, it might be 75% plus 75%, like 150. Of course, the 75 is less than 100 if you only would do mustard, but you don't have all the other benefits. But together you actually easily beat any monoculture. So the that's again coming to it's not easy, yeah, because you have to get different times of harvesting.

SPEAKER_03 44:08

There are there's of course a bit more of a dense technical, technical challenges, but uh yeah.

Koen van Seijen 44:13

You feel comfortable doing that at scale, like everywhere. So you think the trade-off trade-offs or the challenges are worth it, and you basically have another example of where one plus one is three, plus all the other benefits, the resilience, the risk piece you're mentioning, like if one crop fails, you have the other one, which if you only had one crop, obviously you have nothing left of climate weird. And you're building soil, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:38

Actually, and after we harvest, for that's take again the same example these vets with the wheat, you can put the animals after that then for For example, the animals will feed from the leftovers, and then you are already fertilizing the soil for the next crop that is following this combination. We need to think uh always like in a holistic and long-term perspective. So think the farm as a living being, so with different organs and different functions, manage it and then think: okay, if I do this action today, what will bring in 5, 10, 15 years? You need to think in a long perspective, and what is happening every year? We measure the soil, but we do let's say a complete soil test each three years. So a big we have this campaign that essentially what we saw was since 2019

Compost Mapping and Bale Grazing

SPEAKER_03 45:44

until 2026. So we are talking about seven years. We were able to convert the 1% of organic matter that we had in the soil to 3%. We produce our own compost. What we did in 2019 was, and I think, for example, precision agriculture also helps quite a lot with this. In our production area, so in the pivots, we did like a soil assessment to understand where to prioritize areas. So basically, we identify which areas in the different pivot we have more organic matter. We produce quite a lot of compost, but still for our size is very little.

Koen van Seijen 46:28

Because how many hectares just forgive people like montado versus annual?

SPEAKER_03 46:32

The total farm has around 700 hectares, 500 is montado, and 200 is pivot's annual crop. So it is not small.

Koen van Seijen 46:42

And so yeah, you have a lot of compost, but even if you have a lot, you need to be very deliberate in where you put it. Yeah, of course it makes more sense.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

Almost like cirurgic. So what we did is like we do we did like an assessment to identify the not only organic matter, but I'm just taking the organic matter as an example, to identify where are the areas that there is a huge lack of organic matter. Okay, we identify here.

Koen van Seijen 47:10

How many pieces were that? Like just uh you make a list then of priority areas?

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Yes, we could identify like visualize like with colors. So imagine red very low, green or yellow, medium, green very high, and then in the red areas we start to put a lot of our own compost. Uh, and then we start to move it. Okay, now that we put a lot in these red areas, let's move for the yellow ones. But again, introducing compost in the soil by itself is a good measurement to take, but you need to protect what you are putting there, so that's why we use no-till. We integrate also the animals because imagine what happened. If the animals are grazing in, let's think, in an area that is very fertile, they are going to move the seeds and the nutrients for other area that is has low fertility. So, what you are doing actually with the animals, not only recycling where they are grazing, but actually moving fertility across cycling of you plan that as well, saying, okay, we're now gonna hit this area where we know it's red.

Koen van Seijen 48:24

We applied a lot of compost, so we're bringing the animals after they came from a very healthy piece.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

The animals we use both in the let's say higher organic matter and the lower, also because we need, let's say, space. Yeah, of course. What changes is like the time that they graze and the time that we give to rest. So imagine if it is like a very low organic matter area, we provide we don't graze for so long, and we provide longer periods of rest to make sure like the system breeds, and we have some areas in Montado that were actually sent. And then we did a grazing technique that is called bale grazing. So we put a lot of bales, a lot of animals, especially the cattle. You put fences, you put a lot of high number of animals, a lot of food because there is no graze, there is no grass, you need to feed the animals, and then you let them to trample, to feed, to poop, to pee. And then the most important, okay, this movement is important, but after that you need to leave it rest. And what do you see then? We live, I think it was one year and a half, and I can tell you the grass that he had was like the size of my shoes, and very low shoes, people reach my knee.

Koen van Seijen 49:48

Wow, just animals, and of course, some food from outside, feed because otherwise they wouldn't.

SPEAKER_03 49:52

But even the feed is our forage that we produce in the farm. But even if it comes from outside is nice because it is like RCP when someone is almost dying, and the doctors do like your the shock on your heart, yeah. It's something like that. So the system is so weak that you need to give, but then of course you cannot put this person running a marathon. It is exactly the same as the soil. You need okay, now you are alive, rest, take your time, recover, and then run your marathon in a couple of years.

Koen van Seijen 50:30

Let's let's slowly so now these pieces are back into the rotation, like you are now still very carefully obviously managing it, but they are part of, and before you could just couldn't pass because there was nothing.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

No, we passed, imagine we include also this kind of areas, but we had to do bigger parcel to make sure the animals had food.

Koen van Seijen 50:50

Which means they didn't have the impact on that piece, like they were storing it probably. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 50:54

That's why, for example, the animals they promote uh growth of the pasture. So imagine if we are talking about a big piece of land that is very dry and very sandy, this can of course takes time, but what will happen is okay, I don't have enough pasture, but with these kind of techniques, you start to promote more pasture to have more animals in the farm.

Koen van Seijen 51:20

Is that something that comes back into the project now and the workshops and the courses or the education with the other grazers? Do they have a lot of those issues with pieces of pasture that are not really functioning? By the way, in the background. I see a very small one. A lamp calling.

SPEAKER_03 51:36

We have a list, for example, of grazing techniques that we would like to test in the project, and then this is like a conversation. So we talk with each farmer and we visit them and we identify okay, this could be a good area for you to test bale grazing. Are you willing to do it? If yes, we are going to support him and to explain how to do it. So in the end of the project, that will be in 2013, the farmer hopefully can see there is like a huge difference when it started and when it finished. Or for example, if there are farmers that okay, I want to work with the pasture that I have. Okay, that's fine, let's work like that. Or the ones that are more comfortable, okay. I have my pastures, but I want to seed some plants because I want to improve the quality of my pastures. So this is like different techniques, but the final result is always the same. It is to promote soil health and at the same time to show to the farmers that it's possible to do. They have this risk pillow that will allow otherwise, probably they will not do without support or without financial support.

Koen van Seijen 52:54

This project could provide the same shock to the farmer as you do on the land with bill grazing. Exactly. Kickstarter because like most farms around here, I'm imagining, are struggling like anywhere else with wet.

SPEAKER_03 53:07

I think they want, yeah, but in terms of financial, they don't want to take the.

Koen van Seijen 53:12

They shouldn't, probably. If you think their age, if you think how many years they have left, unless they have the stamina as well, and the support and the will and the entrepreneurial drive like Joao did, and many other pioneers, we can't expect the next group of farmers that is curious, it's looking over the fence line and is looking but doesn't have the background. Also, to find European projects and to find it's not for everyone, rightfully. And now the question is how do we help the other the 20 around here that want to but don't really know where to start? And then the other 50, and then the other hundreds, and then etc. etc. Step step by step. And we talk a lot on animals, you get a lot of visitors here as well, you get a lot of uh investors, you get a lot of people from the financial world, and of course the academia. Have you seen the tone on animals change? There's been quite a period where all cows are bad. We're doing a whole animal series on the podcast to not debunk that, but to push back on that. Of course, the current way of managing 99% of animals is horrendous, but we see here as well the impact of it. Do you encounter a lot of resistance when you explain, when you show the role of animals, especially people coming from the and I don't see that every day, the role of animals in an agriculture system like this?

SPEAKER_03 54:23

Yeah. I understand and I have the same opinion that nowadays the animal production system is a problem, and I would say it is one of the biggest problems in terms of the farming and the impact that has in the climate change. What we try to do is, as you were saying, we don't argue or we don't fight back about these ideas because unfortunately they are correct. But what we try to do is okay, let's together change the kind of production and even not only let's say in the farm, because okay, the farm, I think already have a lot of things to do and to manage and to worry, but let's think together in the food system, even the food system, I think it needs to be balanced between the producers, the transformers, the sellers. So we need to work all these. What we try to do is always we show and we always invite. And actually, you saw we have no gates in the farm. Yeah, so everyone is very welcome. And what our job is not to fight against okay, those that are against animal production, but show okay, it is possible to have high-quality meat that actually is very important to fight this climate change and carbon release. And why? Again, the same example. The soil that we had a few years ago was mostly sand, so no plants. If there is no plants in the soil, there is practically no carbon sequestration. Actually, it's the opposite, is the carbon release. So, what we did was exactly use the animals to promote soil health, to promote plant growth. That now this piece of land is actually sequestering carbon into the soil. So we're passing by some sheep.

Koen van Seijen 56:29

Sorry, sheep. We're kicking you out of the shade.

SPEAKER_03 56:33

That's what we try to explain. That is, okay, you are right. The system nowadays, as we start our conversation, we supplete because of economic efficiency, we supplete the crop production from animal production, but actually we need and we have to put them both together because it is how nature uh works. And if we keep just fighting, I think we don't reach there. It's very difficult to see put all the people together to speak and to find solutions together that make sense in all the different perspectives.

Koen van Seijen 57:18

And we need a lot of legal actions against the current KFO operations that are dotting this landscape as well, and in Spain, and like you see these little low buildings which are full of screaming pigs, unfortunately, and the cow operations and the chicken operations as we started this conversation. And it's just um, yeah, we need those two sides, not two sides, we need really big, and we need to give them economic opportunities that it makes more sense to transition. And that's actually a nice one to one of the research projects you have been very involved in, together with Dimitri and Heizer, on like another industry that's quite intense. We talked about it a bit before the almond orchards around here, the intensive ones.

Almond Trials and Investing in Soil

Koen van Seijen 58:04

Um you've been doing a very interesting project with them on not fighting that and saying, oh, every almond tree has to be with uh a hectare around it and it has to be super artisanal in that sense, etc. No, you're accepting the reality of intensive orchards, which are mostly mechanized, which are fertilized, which are irrigated as well, and saying, okay, how far can we push that in terms of regeneration? How can we show that actually with a few quote-unquote simple things, measures, you can have a huge impact financially, ecologically, etc. How did that project come about and why is it so exciting to you as one of the 15? Of course, don't choose any of your babies, but one of the ones you are excited about.

SPEAKER_03 58:48

Let's talk the almonds and an example. That is in the long term, I think if this kind of industry, let's say, wants to survive and their Excel file needs to work in terms of financial, I think it needs to put nature and agroecological practices in this kind of productions. One of the projects that is Arboi Nova that we have here in Montsilveira, it is actually open or real-life field experiment. It is a five-hectar plot. Okay. I think it's already big enough to show something.

Koen van Seijen 59:28

Because that's the normal unit people use in intensive elements, right?

SPEAKER_03 59:32

Five hectares are the water sector irrigation is normally something around these numbers. And what we are doing is we have the same number of trees per hectare, so let's talk the same intensity if you want to call it. But the way that we manage the weeds, the way that we manage the water, the way that we cover the soil, it is totally different from those that like this kind of industry do. And again, we don't fight against them. What we do is okay, let's put our hands in the soil and show it is possible to be profitable and at the same time to bring these agroecology practices that actually what we have been seeing is, and this is amazed, one of the techniques we are using leaving mulch. So basically, we have a kind of carpet of covers.

Koen van Seijen 1:00:33

I will try to take some pictures later, but it's very relatively close together. Lines of almond trees. There's a line in the middle, or there's open space which is either covered or not in other systems.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

The space is like the trees, the distance between the trees is five per six. Okay. So imagine you have what straight lines, very long straight lines, then the trees are the uh organized. Yeah. And in these lines where the trees are in between the trees, literally in the same line as the tree? Even in the tree. Okay. We have uh living mulch, a carpet of clovers. That what is showing us, we have two two plots, one here in Montsilva and another in south of Portugal. What happened was the number of wheats just decreased a lot, and you will see and take a picture to show there is, of course, a few species, but almost no wheats. And what the research, we are still processing all the data, but the first thing we saw actually we had we also analyzed the leaves of the almonds, and the leaves of the almonds that have this living or this clover carpet, they have more nitrogen. So that means we can decrease the nitrogen fertilizer. We are putting more nitrogen, but through a biological process that is nitrogen fixation that provide more. Imagine the covers, what is happening? The clovers provide more nitrogen. The clovers bring more pollinators and auxiliary insects, then will of course help on the almond pollination, yeah, which is a big issue, yeah. But also brings auxiliary insects that will control possible pests that can attack the almonds.

Koen van Seijen 1:02:28

We said before, legumes inside a system obviously fix nitrogen and more life, brings more insects.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

More water infiltration.

Koen van Seijen 1:02:38

And it's not competing for nutrients, etc. It's not that the almond suffers because there is no clover underneath.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:43

When the soil is covered, we cannot see, let's say, competition, we need to see cooperation because the plants are in the world. I'm thinking in the almond production industry, that we are saying that they can take some nutrients off for that should go to the almond. This plant is an annual, this plant will die. So the nutrients will release, will be processed for all this biology, and then they will make available for the plant. So we need to stop thinking, probably in a very short time, this competition, but in the mid-long term, it will bring more nutrition for the soil. That in turn will bring more nutrition for the tree.

Koen van Seijen 1:03:24

The plots look fundamentally different. We'll take pictures again, we might walk it later with Dimitri, etc. But just to keep in your mind, it looks much more alive. What are you doing in the middle lines actually between the trees? What are you experimenting there?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

Between the trees, different cover crop mixes. So we design two main cover crop mixes. One that we call like the biomass production, so it's more based on cereals and grasses, but also have a little bit of legumes to fix nitrogen. The idea of this mixture is to have to build organic matter, but also the way that we terminate this cover crops, so we shred and we put all the materials into the lines also to manage the weeds that are very syntropic.

Koen van Seijen 1:04:14

You pass through, you shred, and you dump it on the tree lines, which adds more fertility and more cover for any weeds against any weeds, it's evaporation because you are covering the soil, you keep more moisture in the soil. Are cover crops a normal thing in these orchards? Like the non-true ones?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:34

No. No. The most common is of course they apply the herbicides to keep the lines as clear as possible, and then they leave a very short straight line in the middle of the trees. That is better than nothing, but we can do it, we can make it better.

Koen van Seijen 1:04:52

A lot better.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:52

The other crop is nitrogen. The mix is very similar. We just change the seed proportion. And essentially it is focused on nutrition because we are producing more nitrogen that then again we put next to the lime, so the roots of the trees can benefit from the nutrients that are released by these cover crops.

Koen van Seijen 1:05:17

And the neighbors, like this, because they're all owned by financial investors and the operators, etc. Are they engaging? This is a relatively new project, but still you're seeing already interesting results. How are the conversations, let's say, with the 8,000 hectares around you, not the five hectares that you're managing here? Has there been interest? Have there been knocking on the door? Have you had like meetings around okay?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:41

They already know the project, they are very interested to come, actually, also because this question to reduce the nitrogen, there is an interest, and also because you actually they can decrease their operations because the use of nitrogen, especially in the parcel that we have in the south of Portugal, that is conventional. Normally, on average, I think they apply for times herbicide, and we were already able with this clover carpet technique to only apply twice a year. So we are already talking about 50% decrease, which is good for nature and good for the pocket.

Koen van Seijen 1:06:22

And especially now with costs and with suffering in terms of let's say extreme water events, etc. Like they see their soil floating away as well. Like it's just and so if we always like to ask a few questions from the finance angle.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:39

I will try to do my best.

Koen van Seijen 1:06:40

No, no, no, I'm uh I'm super interested in what you would what you're gonna answer. So we have actually investors here quite a lot on the farm, you have groups, etc. What do One thing you want them to remember? Let's say we do this in the theater. What is the one thing you want them after a nice meal and an amazing walk? Like they're really buzzing, let's say, but we know people forget. We know people that the next day, if they're in the office and they open the laptop or the computer and they should make decisions on investment flows, what is the one thing you want them to remember? What is the seed you want to plant in the mind of the investment or finance world about this reality, about this emerging knowledge? A lot of the knowledge was already there, but you're putting very serious papers around it and showing it at scale. What would you like them to remember?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

We should rethink a little bit the investments because nowadays, with these technologies, there is a let's say high return, a very fast return. Nature doesn't work like that, so we need to have longer investment plans and also it's not only in the investors but all the food supply chain to think more a little bit of the farmers. Not only we work this farmer but to think how the food system should support this transition because most of the farmers they don't have any sense to do this transition, they will not take the risk. So, how can we, let's say, put a little bit of this margin that, for example, supermarkets have in the farmers to make sure the supply chain is more resilient and more healthy in the production part? Because I think this is a consequence of all this food supply chain that is nowadays, I don't remember the number, but the average of the age of the farmers is very high. And if we continue like this, in a few generations we will not have people to work in the farm.

Koen van Seijen 1:08:45

Probably in a generation.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:52

If we don't invest a little bit, we don't need to invest a lot, we need to support a little bit more and to give a little bit of a bigger, I'm not asking for too much, but a slightly larger slice of this cake, a little bit to the farmers. I think everyone would benefit, and I'm pretty sure farmers will be happy in trying new practices and bring this kind of agro-ecological practices to their farms.

Koen van Seijen 1:09:25

I'm laughing and smiling because we're recording this in a morning where the founder of Slow Food, Carlo Petrini, passed away this night. And I remember him presenting at a group of investors we brought together when we did the Atomic Annual Global Gathering at their university in Pollenza. And his main message was not knowing anything about the financial industry, being a good fundraiser because he raised quite a bit of money, but not on the return side. His main message was investing young farmers. And I was thinking about it while driving over here this morning, contemplating and thinking with all the technology we have, with all the remote sensing and the virtual fencing we were discussing before we recorded all the drones you're using for foliage, like our future depends and all the AI stuff we have, on investing a little bit in future farmers because and young farmers, probably younger farmers, which are younger than 60 plus, because otherwise there won't be any food and any landscape as we noticing here. And so it's a very humbling message.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:21

I would like not to see robot ships grazing in Montana.

Koen van Seijen 1:10:26

I have a bit of a dystopian future, Diogo, yeah. And so what if we switch the seats of the table, let's say, and put you on the investor side? We always like to say, what if you what would you do with a billion euros to put to work? Which is again, I don't wish anybody has that concentrated wealth, but people have, and we're getting those questions, and we need that kind of money. What would be your focus as an investor? Suddenly you wake up one morning, you check your bank account, and you're like, oh my god, what happened? You call the bank probably to see uh did they make a mistake, and it's some faraway aunt that you never knew, but she passed away, unfortunately. But you have this money to invest, and but she only said you have to uh put it to work in agroecology and regeneration. What would you do?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:09

Three main points, of course. I'm talking research. Even if it is doesn't provide very fast return, I think research in this kind of practices will bring, let's say, indirect returns because if we do research, okay, I invest there, and then I would invest in agroecological training, not only for farmers in the practices, but also in the whole supply chain to understand the importance and even in the financial, there is a value on these ecosystem services that still doesn't have a number, but it is there. And the third one, it would be invest on the transition of the farming system to put ecological practices. I don't know how exactly, economics is not my background, but I would see these three, let's say, investments as my priority to use one billion.

Koen van Seijen 1:12:11

And you're getting there almost with this pro not with two billion, but like in terms of figuring out how, because with this 20 to 50 farmers you're working on grazing, yes, it's a payment immediately and then decreasing it, but one or two steps further, it could be a transition insurance. You would probably know what are the indicators, when do you pay out or not, which are the few numbers, like the few key APIs you need to follow on a farm in transition, like in I'm saying a couple of years, let's keep it broad. You would probably know how a transition looks like in these kind of systems. Your numbers moralize your risks. And if an insurer comes along or a meat producer, you had quite a few cows here, it says, okay, how do we do that at scale? And how do we insure instead of invest because it's a more effective way of using money because you don't have to pay out if it works? Or like some kind of outcome scheme. Okay, if it works, then we pay the farmer success fee or not. I don't think that's impossible to construct. And we've talked about the pie and some other things, and maybe that's an answer to this question, but it's inspired by John Kemp. Um, and I know you're gonna play with field lark at some point today. What do you believe about regenerative agriculture that others don't believe to be true? What do we believe to be true that others don't? Where are you contrary? You go to a lot of events as well, and to like where do you in the bubble feel different maybe, but in a good way. I'm not saying just to see, okay, like I have strong opinions about horses or strong opinions about fetch or about whatever. What do you where are you different when you go to these events and when you hang out with other farmers and researchers?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:39

What I see and makes me happy is like the regenerative farming is not again, you have let's say the principles, but there is not specific recipes, and I like this one. I like to think why this works in this way, why I should do this and not that. So I think regenerative farming as any change at the beginning looks like a nightmare, but once you start to notice and understand the principles, and when, like the soil, when you decompact your mind, your mindset, I think you start to see the results and to feel more confident. And when I go, for example, to conference or when I talk with other people, I really like to talk with regenerative farmers because they look like how can I say kids with a new toy. So they are like happy and understand, okay, this is actually what I should be doing, and not just follow like a recipe in this date. I need to apply this one. No, let's think, let's of course it can be a little bit more time consuming, but at the end of the day, you feel more comfortable and you feel more, let's say, confident of what you are doing, and you have more control, I think, in your pocket.

Koen van Seijen 1:15:06

It's a very interesting metaphor, yeah. Like they feel more playful, they feel more humble as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:12

And more alive, I think.

Koen van Seijen 1:15:14

Why do you think it is? I have a theory, but what do you think? Because it's different than many conventional, not because, but they are there's a different energy around it, a different spark, a different Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:24

One of my hobbies is to do ceramics. So I like to do work with my hands and also I like to do things. And I think regenerative farmers that apply this kind of practices are more alive because they are more aware of what is happening. They are not just acting like robots. I'm not attacking anyone that follows the recipes.

Koen van Seijen 1:15:49

For very good reasons we build that system.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:51

At the same time, it is, let's say, a little bit sad because you just follow the rules. Like you don't think what actually you are doing.

Koen van Seijen 1:16:02

We're looking at the farming rebels, yeah?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:04

I think that sometimes is good because sometimes you have days that you just do automatic things and that's it. But farming, I think, and being a farm is very challenging, especially regenerative farming, because for you to apply correctly the principles, you need to understand, imagine how the soil works, understand the soil is a living system, what is this plant, is this insect warmful and not. That's why one of the investments it would be in training, and not only training the farmers, but also training the consultants. Consultants or the farming association, they have a major also role in having this kind of knowledge to share, and they will have for sure more impact because they have more connections with different farmers and realities.

Koen van Seijen 1:16:56

It's probably it's a big we like leverage in the financial industry, a leverage point or an acupuncture point or a positive feedback loop. Hence, Philip Burker, Climate Farmers, is focusing on the agronomists because who do you call if you want to transition? If you're not crazy enough to like wow, go to New Zealand and Australia and YouTube your way. You can, it's absolutely possible. But you probably call your consultant. And if your consultant or advisor is paid by the input industry or and or has never had like a deep dive into agroecology and regenerative forms of agriculture, probably he or she, mostly he, is gonna advise you too risky, don't do it. And that's where most of it stops. Unless you're lucky enough to be close here and you're part of a funded program or a program where you can actually walk alongside somebody that is has made a lot of the mistakes already for you and can actually tell you, avoid that. Okay, chicken caravan takes six months to get licensing, okay, be careful with that, model it like that, etc. etc. We've done a series on farmer philosophies. We now mostly are doing it walking the land because you almost automatically get into the philosophical part, as we did as well. We've done sitting down a few times, also with Anna van Leo and others, and it's great, but I get restless after an hour, that's why I prefer to walk. And but it's because these farmers are facilitating life and they see that and it makes them humble. And I remember Jeroen Klompe saying in the interview we did actually in the soy sauce brewery or in the storage, like you could hear the plop, plop, plop in the background. Like, how much do you know now after 10 years of this journey? And he says, Yeah, we know a lot more than 10 years ago, but we also know the universe is a lot bigger, so actually we know less. And that's tiring, but at the same time, very much alive, I think. And then there's a final question, and then we wrap up because you have a lot of prep to do for tomorrow as well, like among the other things, building a cinema, just a normal Friday. If you had a magic wand, you would change one thing overnight. So we take away the fund. I'm sorry, your bank account is back to normal, a few zeros less. But you can change one thing overnight, which we've heard from global consciousness to banning KFOs. We've heard anything. Theoretical completely theoretical. Could be better taste buds on everybody that we suddenly taste chemicals, could be anything, but only one. So you don't get an Aladin three wishes, you get one wish. What would it be if you tomorrow morning we wake up and Diogo has changed this in the food and agriculture space? What would that be?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:12

With my magical wound, I would put all the soils healthy. Boom. And all the climate crises, all the food crises are solved.

Koen van Seijen 1:19:22

And how you can change that? But is there would you do that? Like giving farmers more autonomy? Would you just magically change it to that? Because then the chances is that in 10 years we're down. We I we degrade again.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:35

I could I could do both. That is okay. Tomorrow with my wound, I would put all the soils healthy, and with one billion, I would do the transition, trainings, and keep the soils healthy.

Koen van Seijen 1:19:48

We would give us a better baseline, a better start. Because we're a bit in the red at the moment. Exactly. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for this pleasant walk and conversation, and that was really good.

unknown 1:20:00

Thank you.

Koen van Seijen 1:20:01

Very nice. That doesn't happen very often. We walk the land with a scientist who lives on a farm, lives nearby a farm, and is deep into regenerative science, and seems to have a lot of fun doing that. So it's been an absolute pleasure to have Diogo on the podcast. And what stayed most with me, honestly, is how clear the science is on grazing and how clear the science is on integrated silver pastural systems. We've seen that with John recently, where his woodlands are seriously suffering because of 250-year-old woodlands because of the lack of animals. And you see partly the same in the Montano. Doesn't mean there should be animals everywhere, etc. etc. But really clear showing that ecosystems suffer without the proper livestock integrated. And we talk about, of course, the Elmond side, which we also discuss a lot with Dimitri. And so, yeah, it's been a very exciting episode. Three, a full-time scientist on the farm is not something I've ever seen, except for some research farms. So this is very exciting, very interesting the moment and how confident they feel about their practices that it works. Whatever it I'm doing, air quite services, it works. And yeah, what the future holds for the Montado. We have some other episodes around that as well. So stay tuned for that. For now, thank you for listening. Share it with a friend, share a clip, share anything that you think somebody could benefit from. And catch you at the next one. Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website, investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/slash posts. If you like this episode, why not share it with a friend? And get in touch with us on social media, our website, or via the Spotify app and tell us what you like most. And give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. That really, really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.