I'm not, I don't oil this wiki wheel. That's not a philosophy I live by. I feed the hungry man. I feel that fire going on in the corner over here, and I try to add to it, and I try to recruit people to that end.
SPEAKER_01Firehouse Vigilance presents the weekly scrap, a podcast dedicated to the never-ending fight against complacency.
SPEAKER_02Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance. It is weekly scrap number three, 53. My guest tonight is D. J. Stone. With over 25 years of dedicated experience protecting communities in Northwest Florida, he is a second-generation firefighter, rose through the ranks at the Fort Walton Beach Fire Department, serving 22 years as firefighter, captain, and battalion chief. He now serves as training chief with the South Walton Fire District, which where he oversees training programs, leadership development, and operational readiness. DJ is widely respected as an innovator and educator. He created the Grab Analysis, a program that breaks down real-world video rescues to sharpen search tactics, decision making, and victim removal skills for firefighters nationwide. A passionate advocate for aggressive interior search, high standards, and strong mentorship. He continues to shape the next generation of fire service professionals, including his latest project that I look forward to diving into this evening. It is my absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Once again, DJ Stone. Welcome back, my brother, for number 353.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much, man. Yeah, it's it's it's crazy. Um always an honor, Coralie, to be asked to come back and hang out. We were just talking before we aired this about back in the North uh Florida Fire Expo days, kind of meeting you and doing this. And it's so cool to see where your efforts and your energy have taken this, man, and always humbled. You know, I don't know any other words to describe it, but I appreciate it, man.
SPEAKER_02No, it's awesome. Is there something I missed in the intro? I always like to ask anything you want to add, anything I got wrong.
SPEAKER_00I really don't. I don't like talk about myself, so we can move on.
SPEAKER_02I understand that feeling. Uh, all right, audience, get your questions primed and ready for DJ. We have a lot to cover, so I'm gonna get to the sponsors, I'm gonna do those sponsors, and then we're gonna get to scrapping. Everything in the fire service gets tested training, instincts, equipment. That's why Snaptight designs and builds its fire hose to perform no matter the challenge. Durability, packability, kink resistance. Every single line is tested before it leaves the factory. So you know you can count on it. Snaptight is American-made, firefighter trusted. Visit Snaptighthose.com to learn more or find a distributor near you. Firefighter safety and accountability starts with being able to quickly find and identify individual firefighters operating on the fire ground. Identifier safety combines the best in photoluminescent materials for durable firefighter identification solutions that can glow for up to 20 hours. No switches, no batteries, which means being able to rapidly identify firefighters by name, unit, or assign uh assignment, even under hot fire conditions. All specifically designed and tested for the rigors of the job. And listen, use code vigilance, V-I-G-I, L-A-N-C-E, Vigilance. Use code vigilance whenever you check out and get 10% off your order. Be seen on scene, identifiersafety.com. And of course, I love Flame Decon, so get the nasty stuff off you. Shower within the hour, use Flame Decon, so get the nasty stuff off your balls, and off your privates. I'll just say it that way. That's probably more inclusive. And finally, vigilantes. Uh, if you're not a vigilante, go be one. That's all I gotta say. Go be one if it's worth it.
SPEAKER_00All right, DJ. Let me check. It's worth the risk. Some would say.
SPEAKER_02Some would say.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm pulling up. I I'm working in I'm in Carolina at the first new tactics fire conference.
SPEAKER_00While you're pulling something up, I would like to uh give a shout out to uh my family in the fire service. Literally, my nephew Caleb Stone just started with a Scamby County fire rescue recently. He's on ladder 13 on the barrier island, and he was kind of you know talking about listening to everybody in town go to fires. Well, he called it his first job last night. Nice brothers on the scene, and he's sending me. Oh, by the way, the other brother, that's me. He's sending me photos of them on this on the scene, and then I get a text from Cabe this morning. What a cool, just kind of full circle moment to have your nephew. And then my other nephew, Justin in Alaska. He works for a J Bear and the Air Force joint base, Elmendorf, I believe it is, in Anchorage. Um, hopefully he's hanging out listening. Man, I'm super proud of him. And my old cuz up in Reedsville, North Carolina, Tyler Wiseman. He's one of the captains at Reedsville, and so um, you know, there's nothing better than than family in the fire service. Obviously, my dad uh was in the job and my brother um this journey along, my brother. But you know, I just wanted to say a shout out to them and happy birthday to my youngest Savannah behind me. She's 23. Um, I am getting old. We are getting old, therefore I'm wearing a hat. So here we are.
SPEAKER_02I love it. I love it.
SPEAKER_00Sponsored by By You Pub in Knightsville. How about that?
SPEAKER_02The uh the family and the fires. I was the first, and so my little brother, he's 15 years younger than me, he's also on the job. He but he were he works with Brian Brush. So Brian Chief Crush is his training chief.
SPEAKER_00Man, getting asked for a better situation now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And crush always says in his class that he works with the best more in Oklahoma, and so and which is you know that my son is also on the job at OKC, so there's three of us. So now I usually say, you know, when DJ or Shannon is coming on, I usually say one of my top two Stone brothers in the Florida panhandle. So now I gotta say one of the top three, you know, stone firefighters in the Florida panhandle.
SPEAKER_00He's coming, he's paving his way, man. Um, he's working on a proud of him for sure.
SPEAKER_02All right, we've got I mean, there's people already chiming. There's so many, there's already tons of comments and everything going on, but I want to get to this project because I want to lead off and talk about this project. You called me and talked to me about it. In fact, uh, I got to well, we'll see when it comes out if I make the cut, but I got to contribute a little bit. But talk to me about what uh just introduce your your tactical personnel playbook. Am I saying it right? What is it go?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, there this I would say it is in idea phase, and I'm in information collecting phase. It is a book, and the title I'm running with right now is Personnel Issues Playbook. Um, firefighter interpersonal issues you must know as a boss. Kind of a rip off of the the, I'm sorry, I'm gonna butcher it, but the 30 fires you must know. You must know, yeah. Yeah, that's where the concept that of the title came from. The class came from my work in my own organization, working with my chiefs um on our officer development program. And and I'll keep it really brief. What had happened was one of the portions of the leader, the officer development was personnel issues. Um, of all the days that we did this program over, I think it was over the course of three days initially, this got the most talk and attention. So here's what we did for the day. I said, hey, I got an idea. There's four or five of us teaching. I said, every one of you bring your toughest interpersonal relationship issue that you faced, because we all agreed it's not really, this is gonna sound wrong, but but but it's not, it's not really the fires and the operations because we can get better at that, right? It's the gray area of leadership, it's the gray area of discipline and interpersonal relationships. That that's why leadership books are by the gazillion, right? So back to the class, we do this class. I said, bring your topic to the table. Let's put our issue out to the class, let them discuss among themselves what they think the solution would be for the issue that we faced. And then after they offer the solution, we'll go say, Hey, this was my issue that I presented to you. I actually lived through this. Here's what I learned from it. If I would have done it over, I would have done this, or this worked great, or I shouldn't have said that on and on. After the class, I just realized how much of an impact those stories are because really we re the stories resonate with all of us. I love reading stories, right? And after the class, I got to thinking, man, if there was a way we could give all these issues in a book form to our students, that would be huge. Because then they could take it with them on the journey of their career. And if they come up against a uh uh sarcastic, apathetic employee, they could go, Oh, I remember so-and-so story, flip to the page because we're all kind of the same people, aren't we? Yeah, if I've discovered anything over the years of connecting with friends all over the country, it's that it's the same circus with different clowns, big and small. It's the same people, not the same issues, the same personalities, same personalities, and there's the size of the tent that changes.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, that was the exact analogy I was thinking, the circus and clowns. But go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So upon thinking about that, I thought about the book of search, which I'm super proud to be a part of it, and I'm really grateful you asked me to be a part of something really it's momentous, like it's a big deal. And um, I'm super honored by that. But I thought, you know, I know a lot of people, and I'm not afraid to ask people that I don't know. Just ask them. I'm gonna take that one question, which is what is the most difficult, you know, issue you have ever dealt with as an officer or a chief? How did you deal with it? And what did you learn? One question. And I'm gonna ask 50 to 60 of the who's who right now in the fire service. And um that's just led me down this path. I led me to calling you. And of course, of course, you're gonna make the cut. Um, some people had one story, some people had two, three. I even have some chiefs coming back and saying, hey, I got another one. Yeah, um, get back up with me. I'm gonna share another one. So the concept and the idea at this point is to take all of these stories. Oh, let me back up. So, how I'm assembling this, I'm taking a story, me and you record a story together. I'm using AI to my advantage in this way. I'm taking our transcript and I built a prompt keeping all the story the same, keeping all the facts the same, but it reorganizes it into a PALC format. P A L C stands for a problem, an action, a lesson, and then a challenge. Oh, wow. And it is remarkable. So our conversation that we had, it it auto format it formats that. And all of them are about a one to one and a half page read. So it's really quick. Um, so some of these guys that have given three and four examples, I'm like, hey, I'll I'll take it, you know, I'll take every story and we'll put them in there. And I'm targeting about 50 to 60 people, but it may be more stories than that. Who knows? Um, and I I I haven't I have a vision for maybe how I'd like to see the book. I don't want a big book, I want a small book. And let me also say this: I want it to be free, just like the book of search. Nice. There's no use in me recreating the wheel here. You've you've you've caught you've paved a really great path of giving our information away. So I've told everybody it's going to be free to be given away. However, I'm considering a hardbound book just the way you are considering a hardbound book. But I want all of those proceeds to go to a benefit of some sort. I want to give the proceeds over the cost of production and all the things to get in people's hands. I I don't care about money, I don't care about notoriety. I'm not even I'm contemplating whether I even put my own story in there. I got my brothers and I got a couple other local people, but I don't even know if I'm gonna do my story because I don't need the attention. What I'm after at the end of the day, selfishly, is I want all the goals of your story and of um, so some of the guys I've interviewed, Ray McCormick, um, Rob Fisher, Steve Robertson. When's the last time you heard Steve Robertson talk about leadership? Right. But let me tell you something. That guy's a veteran, and he's a veteran of dealing with people, but the thing he teaches isn't necessarily that. Right. So I'm pulling specific people that people may not think when you say the term leadership, even though they are a leader. You might not be thinking, oh, Anthony Rowitt as an example from Mobile. Right great stories. Um, Chief Rhodes. I was able to interview Chief Rhodes. He was he's pumped about the idea, loves it. Dennis Riley, Clyde Gordon, Steve Shaw. Um, I got Andy Starnes cued up at some point. We're gonna cross paths. Um, Larry Conley, uh, who else I got? Candace Ashby. I've got you, um John Lovato from down South Florida, right on, and a bunch of other people, and Chief Dave Downey, which was retired chief of the Miami Dade, okay fired uh what department, whatever, down there. He he's a legend on the East Coast Downey, you know, and so I made a connection with him recently in a leadership class I was taking in Tallahassee. All that to say, these stories are really, I don't know if you can feel like the excitement. I'm really excited about the project, and I've given myself about a year to try to collect all these because people are busy.
SPEAKER_02That's what I was gonna ask is where's your time frame at? Like how many, how many do you have currently? And how many, what what is your goal to collect?
SPEAKER_00I think I got about probably 16 right now. Here's the thing I I am, I do need I do need some help. I realize that I need some help getting the stories from people because it's just a time, it takes a lot of time. I've got to, you know, coordinate schedules with people, or I'm basically sending out when I send out the interest to other people, I say, listen, record your story. I need your transcript. So just tell me in your iPhone your story and then text it to me, email it to me, you know. Um, but I I'm really optimistic. I think it's going to resonate. And if it's not, this is gonna be awesome for my officer development program. And I'm gonna compile it to a book and I'm giving it to my students every year. Like here, here's some stories from a lot of my friends and and a few of the people that I admire on the job right now in 26. And um, if it's gonna go the way maybe I think it's gonna go, there could be volumes potentially.
SPEAKER_02No doubt, could be follow-up the P problem action lesson and um pop problem action lesson and challenge. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00PA and um, but yeah, I mean, that I don't want to belabor that too much, but I'm really excited. I I've kind of kept it under wraps, other than people I've talked to, but I kind of want to put it out there and maybe get input from other people. Hey, it's a good idea, or you know what? No, you know, one question you're gonna get the same answers, but I haven't. Every person is giving me different stories, and they're crazy, like crazy good. Good. Some that were like, wow, they really learned a lot from it, and others hit it out of the park. I'm I'm cool to hear whatever, and um, anyways, I'm chipping away that now.
SPEAKER_02I gotta think of a better story to submit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm still working on the title. I don't know, man.
SPEAKER_02I just no, it's right now, and I will brainstorm the title, but uh, the one thing the scrap does have is a massive network. Uh because I I tell people this all the time I have a very good guest-to-friend conversion rate. You know, if you're a guest on the show, you become my friend, whether you like it or not, it's just the way it is. And so uh let's let's let's let's put that to work and make that happen as far as connections and things like that.
SPEAKER_00And so I I will take it and um I'm committed to seeing on this project. I would personally like to have it done next FDIC. There's no guarantee, but I think that's a good target for me to try to wrap all the stories up by end of year, and I'll be talking back to you about some publishing, self-publishing routes and different things. Absolutely, see how I can get this figured out, you know. But I I think it's gonna be a benefit not only to me and my organization, but I think it's gonna be a benefit to the fire service. I I truly do. And you know, maybe it'll live on in different volumes, maybe not. But regardless, it's worth the effort, I think, at this point in my life to to see this through.
SPEAKER_02Now, one thing I'm very excited about is the model, the success of the book of search, which we which was a collect the fire service built it, you know what I'm saying? Like from the the guys who uh initially put together that beautiful topic list to me coming along and and being a gas pedal and using the network to to uh nudge it across the finish line and all that, but but people have have constantly asked me at different times, you know, when are you gonna do the book of truck or when are you gonna do the book of engine, you know, or insert whatever book of? And I'm like, the model's there, it just needs a doer to to grab the reins and go. Like, go go nuts. Whoever wants, I mean, the fire service built the book of search, the fire service can build the next one.
SPEAKER_00The two challenges, and I'll just say this as a new leadership nugget. I was talking today, my friend Jason Martinez, battalion chief, retired Palm Beach guy up here with us now. And and we were just talking about some of the battalion chief stuff, anyways. I said two of the hardest things for me is follow up and follow through. And I think that goes for everybody. Follow up, follow through. You got an idea, you got a project, you got a complaint, you want to fix something, do something about it, follow up, and then follow through, see it to the end. Um, and he related his follow-up and follow through, just checking on people. Hey, how are you doing? Hey, I heard this was going on, like the people he's in charge of, and how he needs to be better at that. And I'm like, Yeah, man, me too. Absolutely. Even in the training division where I'm at now, it's even more important. And um, I'm ashamed to say that I've neglected that. I want to be better at it, so I'm trying to work on follow-up and follow through in many different ways, and that's just one of them for me.
SPEAKER_02Well, I can say, as a battalion chief, uh, you know, I I heard very early on, I think it was John Salka talking about get out of your house, drive around, be present with your crews. You have to do it. The good battalion chiefs get out and are present, and that was every one of my biggest, I don't say regrets or mistakes, but whatever you my downfalls were when I didn't follow that advice.
SPEAKER_00You know what, you know what's crazy, Corley, is that organizations do not build in the time for that. I agree with you. They want to overload battalion chiefs with so much administrative tasking, and small departments are even worse. Even worse. You're in a two or three station department, you're doing it all because you may not have an operations chief. Yet, the most important thing that we do as influences, influencers, and leaders on a shift is just be with people. Yet, that's nowhere in your job description, that's nowhere in the requirement, and that's generally not encouraged. Hey, I want you to just go be present at training. You don't have to say anything, just be present. I want you to and purposely build in time to sit around the coffee table at every one of your firehouses within your battalion over the course of a month. That could be dozens and dozens of hours of time that could be lost. But is it lost? Is it really? I say that's the heavy that that is the gold of investment is allowing chiefs to get better at relating and growing and mentoring and all the things that we talk about in our world, but organizations have a hard time attaching a money price tag affixed to just the simple things like being present. That's it. It's not getting my money's worth. No, I I think I think you are. We just have to change the way we look at it.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think me and you both can agree relationships are at the core of the leadership ship, whatever you want to. It's just relationship is foundational. And and I'm work, I have a working theory and I'm fleshing it out. I don't know if it'll make it into a class or a book or what it's gonna make it into, but it's it's just time and proximity. Time and proximity build a relationship, whatever the reasons are for that. And and I think you put your finger on it when you said organizations don't create time for that, they don't create a priority of that at all. Yeah, man, we could beat that topic up, but I'm gonna bring in I'm gonna bring in the YouTube audience, the live audience, and I'm gonna find here a question coming at you. And it's gonna, I don't know if it's gonna be on topic of the book. Right now, we've got one coming from Andrew Walk, and he says, I saw on the post talking about avoiding burnout. So this was on the hype post of what we were gonna talk out. Uh, but is it possible for the fire wife to get burnout too? Oh, so talking.
SPEAKER_00Yes, uh, I I would say probably most of the people tuning in tonight are those of us that are pretty enthusiastic about it. And my apologies, I I I don't tune in all the time because my wife gets frustrated because we have a big TV in our living room and I'll turn it on, like when you had Shannon on and other guys, sure, and I'm like talking back and forth, and I might be typing in the comments. But the point is we have to balance, and and I'm glad so many people are talking about this. We have a passion, I we have a jobby, job, and a hobby. I'm sorry if that offends some people. I'm a full career guy, always have been. I'm not talking about volunteers, I'm just talking about like we love what we do, so we're consumed by it. But if you don't put boundaries on that and you constantly pursue selfishly, perhaps, the knowledge and the things, um, yeah, it can be it could become an issue for your wife. What's the word I'm looking for? Where it becomes um resented, resentment? Resented, that's right. Resentment. Me and my wife had have had conversations years ago about about that, and she grew to resentment. Because years ago, like I had the opportunity now to get out and teach more. I did a lot years ago with my brother and Kurt and some other guys because I had the opportunity, but that wasn't the right time because I was working three jobs, had two fire jobs, had my own business, you know, two young kids. Yeah, right now older, everybody's like grown, gone, and all that. But it it I was sending the message that the job is more important than you. And let me tell you, Corley, you're living it right now, and I'm getting really close. When the lights go out from any sort of attention or fame in this business, number one, or the job, number two, your wife is gonna be right there with you, or your spouse, I should say. That other person's gonna be there with you. So if you don't water that, man, it's it's gonna wilt away and become a resentment. And so I could definitely see where wives could potentially, or husbands rather, even you know, be um frustrated, frustrated by our fashion.
SPEAKER_02No, and I think speaking of North Florida Fire Expo, I think it was there where I think it was Mike Galliano spoke, and someone asked a question along this line, and he said, I I can think of nothing more tragic than someone putting 30 years into this job, hanging up their coat and walking out the bay door and going home to an empty house.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, but if you're not careful, it will, you know, that happens a lot, yes, it happens a lot, and sometimes I think we've had this discussion with my other friends who do a lot of what you do and uh out in the public eye, and that um there's this thing about fire fame, man. You know, they want to make uh the our culture, not the fire culture, the culture in general wants to put everybody on this pedestal, and then other people desire to have that influence, you know, and there's different paths there, and sometimes that's that's even worse. The internet has exasperated that to a certain extent, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02No, and uh flying down here, I was on the plane, so I got to do some scroll time sitting in the tarmac and things like that, waiting on mechanical issues. You're like, wait a second, mechanical issues. Do we need a different plane? But not the point. The uh, I would uh Jacob Johnson posted one of his uh the chief's perspective for the fire. He does it for firehouse, the little he just talks, but the question he fielded was a kid. I assumed it was a kid, and maybe not, but he said, How much should I sacrifice to become fire famous? was basically the question he asked, you know. And it was uh and Jacob knocked it out of the park with what he said, you should sacrifice nothing, you know. Now, if you want to sacrifice something, improve yourself, you know, improve yourself. And it was I I don't want to paraphrase his answer, but it was go check it out. It's it was an amazing little little thing.
SPEAKER_00Very interesting. What a time we live in right now.
SPEAKER_02No, that that's the question, you know, that that you know that that that that that that exists, and I guess it always has, but the internet and social media has just exacerbated it.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's you couldn't do what you would have done five, six years ago, what you're doing now. No, I wouldn't know when people have these platforms, you know, and it's a really great thing, but it could also it's happening and evolving so fast that I luckily we're catching that imbalance quicker now than ever. Um, because you're seeing fallout around us. The divorce rate was already pretty terrible pre attention. Yeah, I'm a product of it. My dad was a fireman, parents got divorced when I was a kid. It's just kind of, I'm not gonna say part of doing business, but in some ways, a fabric of uh the culture of firefighters, but it doesn't have to be right because we we get out of balance for very various reasons.
SPEAKER_02All right, I was gonna go with another rabbit hole, but instead I'm gonna focus back to the questions from the audience because I know where my brain can go. Driver Joe uh coming at you. He says, How do you keep the pull? Because you are in training, you're the treat chief of training, right? Division chief of training. Uh driver Joe says, How do you keep the pulse alive in training? How do you keep the momentum going?
SPEAKER_00Man, that's a big question with a lot of different answers, but I'll start first of all with your own passion. Um and it has to be a passion for subject matter and different forms of excellence, um, but it also has to be a passion for people because that's who you're trying to win. We are trying to win and trying to um encourage, trying to get people to follow you. Rob talked about that in his solo, the dancing man thing. My brother uses it in his presentations. We're trying to get people to follow us, and that's simply influence. And um, how we do that and how we rich reach different people, there's a million different ways. But I really think it starts with you. Um, that was, I think that was one of the reasons I was somewhat recruited to the organization I am now because I am enthusiastic about what I do and I'm passionate about it, not because of passion, because I genuinely internally have a desire to know more and I'm humble enough to say what I don't know. You know, um, the two things I think that are lacking in society today are authenticity and um a willingness to admit, you know, when you're wrong. And so, even part of my presentation, I'm very blunt and open with people. Video does not lie, and my video does not lie on some things that I did that were not great. Um, but we have to be able to be that, you know, being authentic in 2026, people are looking for that. Um, I love what Elkart says or said years ago, where it says we are um drowning in information and starving for wisdom. Starving for wisdom.
SPEAKER_01Man, yeah.
SPEAKER_00What a what a just profound statement in 2026. But all that to say, we have to start by being the example and truly having a passion for the subject matter and then for the people that we are engaging with, because new firefighters in 2026 coming into the job are way more aware, way more educated. Anything that I say as a quote, expert, as a division chief, I am immediate scrutiny once I turn my back to this thing called AI and Google and everybody else that's smarter than me. So, one of my goals in the training division, um, even on a chief level, now I'm in a five-station organization, about 130 strong personnel, transport, fire rescue agency. So for me, I am one, I was one person over training division. Now I have an assistant with me. But still, I I even as a chief, I may be the chief, but I still have to be engaged, right? I still have to be aware. So I try to stay on the edge of what is common practice, what is going on currently. That is vitally important, what an industry standard for something is. So we're not teaching something way out here in left field. You know, um, there was an issue with ladders recently in my training cadre about laddering the inside, outside, middle, all that. Well, I haven't been tracking that. And I was pretty rooted on the middle of the window. And then I did a simple search. I reached out to a couple friends that are really good with ladders and work on truck companies that do it way more than we do. And they all agreed, hey man, the cadre said off to one side is the best practice. And they're like, that's kind of where the industry is right now. And I said, Well, I went back to the guys, the cadre, and I said, I stand corrected, man. Um, you're right, it is industry standard. It's my job to vet that, and and my job to relent to a group and something that is different than what I did 20 years ago. It's okay. That's not the that's not the hill to die on where we're laddering a window, right?
SPEAKER_02You make it sound so easy, but there's so many people who can't who can't say okay, uh, there and that again it's the ego, EGO.
SPEAKER_00E G O. That's it, man. Biggest enemy to all of us, mostly male species in this job. Uh, because females, I think, are a little better at letting that go. There's not as much, maybe there's not as much testosterone and whatever going on internally.
SPEAKER_02Oh, hey, it exists. I mean, no doubt about it. Uh yeah, that's a whole that's a solo right there. We'll have to dig into that one. Uh all right, let me see. Well, let me see what else is coming at you. Because I got one here, which is uh coming at Josh Everett's. He goes, and this is on topic on officer development. So he goes, How do we get fire chiefs to do true officer development to deal in that gray? Far beyond ISTA or or or fire search or whatever. He says, I love that you guys have that. I'm assuming he's assuming talking about your department, but how do we get there?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And and in some organizations, that might mean you. Um, and smaller organizations, that could mean you because chiefs are double, triple, quadruple stacked with responsibilities. Um, that doesn't mean that we can't, like Aaron Fields say, boil from the bottom up, push our ideas to the top. And not only this, pro tip, my brother told me years ago when I was a captain, he was a chief. He said, if you want to get something passed, bring an issue with the solution. Got an issue, you got a solution and a way to execute it, they'll more than likely agree with that. So maybe that's a path. If you're in a larger organization, you're simply bound to whatever's going on, right? Whatever they they're the path they're putting in front of you. Um, but if your organization doesn't feed you, then I suggest you got to feed yourself. And maybe that means starting your own vigilante group as an example. Maybe finding your your people and then bringing it local. What I've done in my organization, and I'm super grateful that man, they they said here's the keystone, don't break anything and stay within your budget. We're glad to have you. And then they're gone, like not gone, but like that, they they have given me an autonomy to bring people into my organization, the Clyde Gordons, the Steve Robertsons, a lot of my friends. I'm like, come here, you know, uh and and share what you know, like about leadership. We had Chief Huffelman in a while back, you know, and that's another way. And you say, hey, Chiefs, here's a subject matter. We get the rules, we we understand that things are objective and we can, you know, we can execute that because it's plain, it's it's out there, but we need to know how to navigate some of these arguments at the kitchen table as the boss, um, some of these personalities, like you know, ones that are sarcastic or cynical, you know, or the complainers or the doubt throwers or whatever it is, all of it, the gray areas, and you have to let them know we need that. I need, I need, I need to know how to work people and not to manipulate them, but to be fair and upright and upstanding and do the right thing and navigate these personalities and know when is enough. No, when like, okay, I'm I'm we're in this gray area, enough is enough. I'm drawing the line right here. It's easy when it comes to gender and religion and politics and those things, but it's not as easy with these gray areas. Um, but bringing outside in is probably one of my best suggestions if you can do it, just because you're go 50 miles away from your firehouse. You're an expert.
SPEAKER_02You're an expert, right?
SPEAKER_00If I came to you, you're like, hey, you're an expert. I'm really not. You talk to people I work with, I'm really not. They're gonna give you the scoop on who I really am, and it is probably not that great, right? So, um, but anyways, I think outside in is is one of the ways that we could do it, and bringing our own solutions to problems, no doubt about it.
SPEAKER_02And and great question, great answer. Everett Everett's always good questions, wizard. Thank you, Joe Wiz. Great question. Moving on, we got one coming at you from Rob Effen Fisher himself, DJ. Man, I don't know, I don't know if that's a question. I don't know what he's referencing, Sam. I have to I have to get Sam to flesh out that question. Um, but here's one from Rob from earlier. He says, in a profession built on this is how we've always done it, how do you determine whether a tradition still has value or is now just resistance to progress?
SPEAKER_00That's that's a great question.
SPEAKER_02Rob never sends soft tosses.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great question. Like I think traditions that are still in use in current best practices, let's say for the job, let's let's say we're talking about you know fireground operations, you know, like we we have industry experts all over the country, and and if there's a general statement of this is how things work, backed now with fsiri data, that's a big one. Um and industry best practices, I think that's a relatively easy path to follow. Um, you're splitting hairs, I think, when you come down to certain interpretations, but the as there's evidence of people not living in that when they're not in their own silo of an organization. Um so part of battling that is always being open to the outside and then bouncing off of what's happening out there to what are you doing in your culture. So let's say the 35 degree fog attack, let's say PPV attack, even better. That one is still in practice in our region, it's still in practice. So if that's still in practice, and I go, man, this is widely accepted as wrong operationally, then you work to bring that information forward and convince others, hey, listen, there's a different, better way. Or uh the stream study years ago. We did all this push outside streams only. Organizations literally made a cultural change of not going inside, and then you had Ray McCormick's and all the rest of the group going, whoa, whoa, whoa, over here. We've been doing this thing over here for so long, we need to study that. And then they pushed the narrative to get FSRI to come back, study the straight streams and all the benefits of that. And it told a different tale, and then we balanced out. So I think those are easy. I would say on the cultural day-to-day side of life in and around the firehouse, um, I don't want to say generations, but generations, you know, um are changing and it's coming in. Certain things are not acceptable like that the way they were. And frankly, we as we grow older, we grow wisdom and we go, you know what? Maybe kidding in that way about that one subject, maybe we shouldn't do that. Then we rise to the rank of an influence of an officer, and then we put it into it, not because we want to be soft, but because, you know, um, we we need to temper back some of this, whatever it may be. I mean, just insert the sensitive subject matter in there. I don't mean avoiding all subjects, because I'm very much the type of person, and I give this speech when I'm teaching new recruits where I at the tea safe speech. You've heard of the tea safe thing, right? From Miami City. Um, tea safe, this shit ain't for everybody, and it's just not. And it's okay because not every Billy and Susie and whoever are cut out to be firefighters, and it's a tough job. We need tough people mentally and physically to do a tough job and indoor, and so, but there's a balance to it, isn't there? There's some toxic things in our culture, racism in the South would be one of them as an example. It's one thing to make them fun of maybe our cultural differences, that's cool, but there's a line to be crossed there, and we need to protect that and do the right things and not allow that behavior or you know, any kind of like gender-based unfair treatment or those kind of things, right? Those are some of the traditions that we need to continue to weed out. So change is necessary there, perhaps. I don't know if I'm answering the question, Rob. I'm rambling, but it's got good.
SPEAKER_02There's good nuggets in that ramble. That's why I allow it to continue.
SPEAKER_00We'll catch up on a beer next time. I see you.
SPEAKER_02Don't worry, Rob always has more questions coming. But the next one's coming at you from Kyle Piverall, fireman Pibb wants to know how do you deal with an individual that is a good dude?
SPEAKER_00But good dude, like a nice guy. Nice guy, but nice guy.
SPEAKER_02Here's the butt. Doesn't have or hold the standard.
SPEAKER_00It depends. So let's start at the peer level on a crew, as an example, peer level. If everyone is operating at a standard here, the department's here, but your standards of crew is here, then everyone needs to rise to that tide. There's no rules saying they should be there, they have a minimum standard. So he's a nice guy, but if he's not hanging with the crew, it needs to be communicated, you know, like not made to be uncomfortable, but um, people are generally going to be uncomfortable. What I've found in that case is nice guys will generally float away from super motivated people. So it almost happens organically. But a little bit of peer pressure goes a long way for the right and good things, being fit, being into the job, paying attention, giving 100% of yourself 100% of the time when you're on tour. That is what we're asking for. Now, as an officer, it's a little more cut and dry. The standard is your standard, but the department standard is the here, and mine is here. It's your standard, your company. And how that works is you got to have the hard conversations, you got to be willing to tell people uncomfortable things in a in a nice way, and you got to be able to hold that line, and you got to be able to follow up and follow through with discipline. And what I mean by discipline is everything the progressive. We're gonna have a talk about it, I'm gonna document it, and then we're gonna go on from there. And and you know, you're either gonna rise with the tide or you're gonna find another ship to get on. And that ship may be another station, truck, crew, whatever. That is not your problem. But never, like my brother says, never apologize for your high standard, ever, never, you know, and I will say this don't allow your high standard to alienate those other people around you because your job and my job is to bring people with us, right? Not not be so passionate that we're pushing people away, our message is not being heard. We want people to get on board, but we don't want to water it down, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you can't water it down to allow them to get on board because then it's not the standard anymore. You've just lowered the you lowered the tide for all ships. Yeah, no, I love it. I absolutely love it, especially the if your standard is here, the department standard is here, and there is a point where as long as they're meeting the minimum, if the minimum standard is the minimum standard, they're meeting it. There is a point where they can chin check you. And at that point, yeah, as the officer, you have to ask yourself why don't they want to meet the standard? And of course, every organization is different.
SPEAKER_00And nice guys are nice guys, they'll do anything for you. Uh but do you want them on your crew? Most of the time, the answer is no.
SPEAKER_02No, and I think, yeah, and yeah, absolutely. So a lot to dig into. Absolutely. All right, more coming from Rob, Effen, Fisher. Are we mentoring future leaders to be problem solvers and culture builders? Or are we mostly mentoring them to avoid mistakes and survive politically?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's that's a good one. Um, yes and yes. Depends on where you're at. I agree.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's uh depends on where you're at.
SPEAKER_00It's a firefighting is local, I think. In some cases, some forms of leadership is local. Um, I uh I would say yes and yes for my organization. I'm kind of doing those things hand in hand, you know. Uh but yeah, that's a layer question, man. Oh, very that's that's a that's a tough one to to answer, but I do think we're I in some circumstance ways. I know my organization, we are building for the next culture. That is my mission today. I was talking with my captain of training, his name is Shannon Glenn, that works with me. Super grateful for this guy's help. He's a 30-year veteran of the job, like the guy is so good. And we're talking, I was telling him about my concerns with the organization, not in a negative way, in a man, these young guys, I got to like I have a burden to communicate how to decision make as an example, how to decision make in the in a moment, like how to make the right decisions tactically, strategically, and furthermore, how to relate to other people as as we move forward and and not alienate, because so many people want to just say an opinion because the younger we are, I think, I think the more just kind of off the cuff we are, and we're not thinking about what we're saying.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_00Uh wisdom hasn't caught up yet. But if we could avoid that, right, and I've learned a lot of what not to do because I had a good mentor and my brother and those around me. So I feel like I've avoided pitfalls. I'm trying to provide the same thing for those. So um, shameless plug, like the decision making could come down to this little book right here, but my good friend Kyle, which I It's coming on your podcast soon.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, it's coming on next week. So be precise.
SPEAKER_00This is one of the best books. You don't have to ask me this question at the end that I've had in my hands in a very long time because this is how we're teaching our people to make decisions under pressure, you know. And Kyle is dug down and he has created a firefighter friendly.
SPEAKER_02Say the name of the book because most people listen.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I'm sorry, The Mind of Fire by Kyle Samson. Um, and it's a basically a fire version of the OODA loop. Look that up. I don't want to have to try to explain it to you. He does a way better job, but it's been a profound book, it's a thick one, it's heavy, it's hard to not hard to read, but I'm just saying I write so much notes, I do it on the weekends. I'm reading it, and yeah, I'm a little over halfway through it right now. Yeah, but that's an example of something like we have this burden to to get people on the right track. How do we do that in an organization that's not going to fires every day? We deal with plenty of personnel issues, but we ain't gonna this ain't no job town where I work. Really, nowhere in the panhandle except for the Scambia is doing the volume of work that they're doing, you know. Where I came from, we did a fair amount. Where I'm at now, we we're we're tracking because of population increases. We're doing much more than we ever had in the past. So, you know, we we have to be able to communicate that. So I think, yes, my organization, we are working towards those ends, and we're and we have um, you know, some females on the job as an example of of gender issues. We got to be conscious of as leaders on how we're talking in inclusive manners. Some people call that weak. I just call that being wise, it's not nothing weak about that, it's being respectful and understanding that there are different generations, different political views, different things coming into the job, but our common bond is the job. It's plain and simple.
SPEAKER_02And the standard, and the standard is independent of all those views, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and that's why you won't hear me talk a whole lot about my politics because it doesn't matter, right? My existence on social media, frankly, is for selfishly the training element, what I'm doing now, and to just try to bring some positivity to the job through maybe what I say or maybe what I write, because I have more time to do it now than I did just a few years ago when my kids were younger, because I didn't want to impose on that time. You know, I wanted to be try to be a better dad and be more present. And um, you know, you know, now I'm I'm I'm I'm leaning more into this because this is my lane, this is what I'm doing now. The training piece.
SPEAKER_02There's something beautiful about like I don't know how old you were when you had your kids, but there's a for me, it was a beautiful time when my kids were all adults, so they didn't need me anymore to just to survive, but I didn't have grandkids yet. It was just this beautiful five-year window, basically, of I had a ton of freedom, and that's where I've been able to travel and do everything and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, uh, same. And you know, I have one grandbaby right now. I don't can't you see that name is Lucy, anyways. I don't think you see that, but um, yeah, like it changes things, you know. I'm that old. No, but I don't feel like it, but I'm grandpa zippy.
SPEAKER_02That's my that's my grandpa zippy, and he runs around my house, and he is the the uh yeah, he's the absolute center of my world. Yeah, no, it changes my life completely. Um, I like one coming from B Morris. How do you help steer a young, eager fireman who's all in from burning out without holding him back?
SPEAKER_00Um, how do we steer a young fireman all in without holding him back? Well, um I think allowing them to own projects might be one thing on your crew. Even new guys, you can empower them. One of the biggest things I found as an advantage for me coming into the training division as a new guy in a new organization was um getting to know the cadre guys that were already there doing things, and then in turn empowering them because I had the ability to give them higher level projects and responsibility, even if they were uncomfortable with it. I gave it to them and I and I pressured them into it. So I think young people are hungry, excited, they also need challenges, and it's good for us to challenge them. Now, you don't want to, you gotta oversee, right? Depending on the subject matter, their experience, all the things. But that maybe that's one way you could do it is empowering. I found that to be incredibly useful for me because as a training division of one, it's very difficult to know all things and get around to teach all things, much less to just lean into a subject matter so you're well versed when you share it. Right. So I have to pick people and I find out what their natural strengths are. And I'm like, hey man, you like this? Okay, great. Hey, here's some people you need to go look up. Here's some information you need to dig into, go build it, bring it back, let me help you get there. Um, so maybe that that that way that that you're giving them ownership, you're empowering them to do things, um, it's keeping them occupied, and you're feeding that fuel. And and again, that's one of the things that I like to say that I do in training division is I am the fuel to your fire. If you've got a passion for some, you could not even be in my training cadre. I have two guys teaching an elevator class coming up in June, right? They they are deep in it, they love it, they're not on my training cadre. I happen to be in PMW teaching, they were attending, which was one of the best fire conferences, by the way, ever been to. It's coming up. You need to sign up and go to that. It's incredible. Anyways, they were there, we got on the subject of elevator training, and I had no idea. And they're well versed, so I said, Okay, in June next year, I want you to do it, and we're coming up on it, and we're working on the program now. Nice, nice, you know, and it's and it's working, but that's recognition and empowerment, you know. Yeah, I think people appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02I'm making up an acronym as I speak right now. Recognition empowerment. I don't know. We'll come up with the rest of it later. We'll write a book, it'll be bestseller. Okay, no, I love it. I like this question. This is coming at you directly. So many questions, brother. We're not gonna get to your topics, but they're awesome, they're they've been amazing, and your answers have been good. So we'll keep it rolling. Jeremy Hump, Humphrey, the Hump. He says, What and what strategies have you found effective in advocating for increased training budgets with admin? And how have you demonstrated the value of those investments through your career? I love this because of your role and the question coming at you pointed at that role.
SPEAKER_00So before I'm where I'm at now, I've been here coming up on three years in July. I was a battalion chief, but and a captain, etc. But always involved with training, always inside and outside of my organization. So when I came here, um it's a better funded, it's a fired district. Uh working from a city to a district. So, as far as justifying, I am super grateful to have an organization, one that recognizes the importance of training and invests in it. And they did that way before I got there. They're they're on this cultural upswing where my organization I came from, my brother was leading that charge at right about 2000. Um, South Walton's brand new organization around that time frame. So now that we have time under our belt where I'm at, years ago, probably five years if I had to guess, way before I got there, they started this trajectory of importance and emphasis of value on training before I got there. So, with that being said, I haven't had to fight for a whole lot of things. But the things that I do fight, I have to have a logical reasoning behind the ask, you know, um, and you got to have some justification. And um, I can't necessarily tell you how to do that, other than facts, not feelings, win arguments. So I tried to use as much factual data as I could, and that leans back to all kinds of different things depending on what you want to do. But um, first you have to get, I think, your organization to recognize the importance of training and then the value of funding it and the value of putting someone like me in your organization. Now, what I thought, what I thought the training division was in a larger organization is not what I experienced. And here's what I mean by that. I thought at Fort Walton Beach, where I came from, okay, so the training division, you know, has the answers to all the questions. They're gonna feed everything and then they're gonna solve all the problems. Well, sort of. I set a course, I do uh facility training where you come to me and we're doing things probably six months out of the year, maybe six, seven months. Um, but I'm not feeding you everything, right? The company officer is the most important person in the fire department, period. They're the most influential, they have the FaceTime with everybody, and so what that means is you are more important in training than I am as a division chief. So it starts at a company officer level, putting the value on it, and then convincing an organization, hey, we need to fund something bigger as we grow so we can sharpen this a little bit. And that at the end of the day, big programs and big ideas take people. And there's a breakover of overtime at some point to where it's worth paying someone like me, or you get too big to be able to pawn that off on officers and chiefs to coordinate and schedule everything and lesson plan and all the things, but um, I don't have a strategy for more funding. I've just been blessed by the position I'm in right now to have what I need, and they have really almost all of my asks to include budgeting money for outside instructorship. Who does that? What organization says we're gonna put money aside so you can bring other people to our organization to tell us how to do our job? Well, that's not what's happening, they're not telling us, but they're bringing that wisdom in, and that is huge.
SPEAKER_02Well, just another perspective in preventing the inbreed, the cultural inbreeding. I mean, that's what it comes down to. And I want love, one of the things you said in there in the answer was to oh, let me see if I can paraphrase and pull it out of my squirrel brain to make people value training, like to build the value of training culture, basically. Yes, I'm paraphrasing what you said, but it was it's the key. Yes, is because if the culture doesn't value training, then you're you're fighting an uphill battle and you're trying to boil some very cold water.
SPEAKER_00And you may be the person to bring like that to light. And that means maybe hosting a conference or a one-day thing or whatever. So me and my brother do a one-day training event, 850 Fireman Day, in our region. And the intent is to give platform to local talent, number one, and number two, free training for those who can't get out to conferences, and it's all volunteer, it costs nothing. We get sponsors, it's a day of brotherhood and fun. But you bring that to your organization that shows the value of training on a bigger scale. Maybe that's an avenue for you to do. But here's the thing it's gonna take, it's gonna take work, work, it's gonna take work, a commitment, follow up, follow through for success.
SPEAKER_02Way to bring it back, way to bring it full circle. I can't. I can't believe I remembered it. Uh all right, I love this one coming at you, which is hey, IAFF Jake wants to know how do you train officers to have tough conversations with their crew members versus being just wishy-washy friends?
SPEAKER_00I don't know that you can train them to do that. I mean, you can, you can, but it starts at an organizational expectation level, I think. Um, besides that, mentorship maybe because you can't force people, humans humans avoid conflict. Most humans do. The vast majority of us do not want conflict, we want to live in peace. So we work overtime to live in that peace. But when you neglect issues, right, that does more to damage your leadership, I think, than good. And I I've been guilty of it, man. I've been guilty of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, all of us, all of us avoiding avoiding a conflict. We'll look, I'll lay awake at night figuring out ways to avoid a conflict.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but you know, the crazy thing is we are most feared of the unknown, I believe.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's strong.
SPEAKER_00We're so scared of what could be.
SPEAKER_02And what what we imagine, what we imagine is usually way worse than when we actually have the conversation. Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_00Just just say it, be direct, do it with a smile on your face, do it with open body posture, right? Think about your body language, think about your tone of voice. That's a big one, man. Passion is is misconstrued as anger a lot of times, and I'm guilty of it, but I'm trying to work on that. I'm trying to smile more. Smile. People want to see you smile, it puts them at ease.
SPEAKER_02Just saying the word smile made me smile.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, it's same. And so, I like all these things I'm trying to work internally on doing that. Maybe that's a way to encourage, but trying to train and mandate it short of just a good officer development program in the long game. I mean, you got to be in it for a long game, man. And sometimes those guys just retire out. The nice guys, they're nice officers, they're easy to work for.
SPEAKER_02And you either find your way to another company or you know, the old manuals had the French word, it was the laissez faire. I think I might be mispronounced. Yeah, the laissez faire just say la vie, what will be will be. The uh um me and Candace talked about this, I think on her solo. I could be wrong on that, but we have a lot of conversations. But uh servant leadership, which has gotten a I I'm a huge fan of servant leadership, so I don't want this to come across wrong. But the the downside to it is is this whole this whole soft skill servant leadership deal. It's like it's like it's hands off, just serve, wash their feet, but no accountability. It's high support, low challenge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she's she talks about it in her management, right? Yeah, leadership, management. You still need management. Yeah, too much management. We lose leadership, too much leadership, we're losing the function of management. If you don't manage your day well, as an example, stay on task, that affects everybody. Doesn't matter how great of a leader you are, if you can't, you know, manage your day on shift, or you can't manage a cancerous personality or call out behavior. So here's one of the things that I did. Um, and I and I do currently, I've done this recently, is when someone says something, let's say that's condescending, or it's a sarcastic compliance. Sure, boss, I'll take care of the law and I'll get on that as soon as possible. Like that that statement right there was to trigger, that's gonna trigger me because it's perceivable disrespect.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. So in that moment, I go, okay, I got a choice. I'm gonna be triggered and respond poorly, with of which I've done in the past, sure, and I had to apologize for. Or I'm gonna say, Hey, um man, I'm just gonna be honest. How you said that came off kind of sarcastic and a bit disrespectful. This is what I heard. Is that what you meant to say? And nine times out of ten, people are like, ah man, you know, no, man, I wouldn't. No, I'm sorry, boss. I wasn't trying to say that. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, but you called the behavior out. You didn't call the individual out, called the behavior out. And as soon as you start recognizing that behavior, you'll see it start tapering off because some people are so steeped in this sarcastic, cynical, because that's the way the world is right now, um, lifestyle, they don't even know they're exuding that. And if you bring it to light, they have to either determine they don't like that part of themselves, or they do like that and make an excuse. And if they do say, I don't want that in my presence. You you can run your mouth when I'm gone, but when I show up, you know, I don't like that. It triggers me. I I I receive it as disrespectful, and then people will learn how to navigate how they act around you. Is that the best solution? I don't know, but it doesn't trigger me, and then I don't respond poorly.
SPEAKER_02There's some wisdom in that. There's some wisdom in that learning that there is no, and I'm gonna use it tomorrow because I'm teaching uh not tomorrow, Thursday, Thursday. I'm teaching some confrontation class, and I like what you just said because you know, uh, yeah, I won't uh again, I'll I'll rein in my squirrel brain, but I love the example you just gave, so I'm gonna I'm gonna steal it from you. I'll give you credit, like always.
SPEAKER_00But uh I don't even know if I'm answering questions, man. But you know, I'm a bit of a squirrel brain too.
SPEAKER_02So it's the scrap. That's the beauty of the scrap. We go wherever we want, okay, cool. And people just come along for the ride and keep asking questions. But it's awesome. I love it. I love the conversations, and there's something you said in there that I think is the key, and it's another one of my working theories. Again, it may it's either gonna be a class or a book. I really mean this. Um, but it's expectations are the root. The I haven't quite worded it out correctly, but it's the it's something along the lines of the absence of expectations, enforcement or just the absence of expectations is the root of all drama in an organization. It's a working theory that I'm working my way through.
SPEAKER_00So I would agree with that. You know, the two things I've said for a long time, and no one's really pushed back on me, and I welcome a pushback. Okay, like call BS, call me on BS. I'm fine with that. Stick to the facts, don't insult me personally, and I can have a debate and a conversation, no problem. So here's my in my my brain, my brain for years is uh how I think about expectations. The two, the two, the route of success are are two things known expectations and knowing how to do the thing. So competence.
SPEAKER_02So you're saying competence and okay. Just I love it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like if I give you like you're a firefighter, hey man, here's the expectation. I need you to stretch the line to here. I need 75 feet the door, not 50. I need it to be angled at the opposite hinge side, the whole thing. I give them this expectation. Um, and they their duty now, with that expectation, their duty now is to know how to do that and execute that thing on the fire ground. And you could probably apply that to your personal life and uh relationships as well, perhaps.
SPEAKER_02But on the fire ground intelligence component, yeah, and fire ground. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00On the fire ground, I I that's what's worked. That's what worked, and and how do we get better expectations? You got to train and you got to drill, and you got to repeat, repeat, repeat. You don't say something one time as a chief, one time as a captain, one time as a senior man. You got to keep repeating this thing, keep it on the front line of your expectations. Um, the small talks at your at your kitchen table in the morning, that's a big one to verbalize it. And then you go on the drill field and you back it up. Then you do it with experience. And I love when the one thing my brother has uh told me a long time ago, and I and I live by it. Other than you permit what you promote, which is a really tough one, I still am not good at the um other one lies within expectations, and he calls it a operational one-time rule. I'm gonna show you something operationally, and I need you to know how to do it one time. You have one chance to screw it up on the fire ground. If you screw it up, I'm gonna talk to you one time. If you screw up again, I'm gonna be in your beep with both feet. And uh, I think that's great. That's great. Like, hey, I'm gonna tell you, okay, hey, you fumbled that line. Okay, cool. Here's how we need to overcome it. Do you understand? Yes, sir. I do. All right, great. Don't let that happen again because that's operational. That affects all those people out there that we serve, and they expect us to be good at being firefighters and search agents and all of that. Way before we're supposed to be good at medical and TRT. And I'm sorry, but that's just the truth. No, no, so he's really big on this expert at those things, and he he does not you got one chance, you got one chance, man. You got to get this operational stuff right because if you make a mistake, that could be someone getting hurt or the life the you know, difference between life and death, and it could be applied to medicine as well. I'm somewhat tongue-in-cheek about that, right?
SPEAKER_02But I'm saying I'm uh I'm all about the fire first culture, I really am, but uh EMS has a massive impact, and and there's huge no matter whether you love it or hate it, it's not going anywhere.
SPEAKER_00I make jokes all the time. EMS is across the hall from me. We take jabs all the time. At the end of the day, I started my career on an ambulance in 1999 in North Walton, and I rode an ambulance and I loved it, and I still rode an ambulance for many years. I still like patient care, and I recognize that paramedicine is a hugely beneficial thing to the public and a massive part of what we do. However, at the end of the day, nobody else is gonna put a tank on your back and get in a building, put a fire out and do searches and vent and do those things. So we get lots of reps on the EMS side of the house. So I kind of don't downplay it, but you know what I'm saying? My passion where I'm at, and I brought to this organization to say we can't forget this. I know we're good at medicine, we're really good at that. We got reps, but you know, if we're lucky, we're getting five first due fires in a year on a company. You know, I'm just making that number up, but I'm just saying like it's not every day we're getting those reps. If you can't replicate on the training ground, I do the best I can, but you know, it's within confines of my rules. And And um where I work is extraordinarily diverse. So we have to have people that are good at executing on the fire ground. And we don't, you know, one chance, one chance. I love that rule.
SPEAKER_02I got one more coming at you right here. This one's coming at you from Kaylee Rose up in Michigan. I'm pretty sure. But I could be wrong. If I'm wrong, Kayleigh, let me know. Other than mandating it, right? So we're taking mandating off the table, but I don't think that works too great anyway. How do we inspire our people to train or show the need for them to train? So, how do you build that training culture? What's your advice slash go-to tactics for building a training culture, especially as the chief of training? Now you like I know you said you came in and it was there, so that's but go ahead.
SPEAKER_00It it was, but so one of the things I did when I came into my organization was um I spent time observing, just watching, asking a lot of questions, and to and figuring out who the players were and more specifically, who are the officers with influence, and then trying to rope some of these officers, if they weren't into the cadre, into the training cadre to lead the charge on the importance of training. I think that's where your kind of global influence is going to come from. Because again, officers are the most impactful in the organization. If not the officers, then your senior players. And I noted a few of those guys too, you know, people who hold influence in your organization. When they speak, people listen. Um, I've identified a lot of those guys, and to this day, they're like right-hand people with me on the cadre. Extremely important to what I do because they're carrying the torch of enthusiasm that me, the fuel giver, is hopefully pouring into them. I'm focusing on them first. I'm not, I don't oil this wakey wheel. That's not a philosophy I live by. I feed the hungry man. I I feel that fire going on in the corner over here, and I try to add to it and I try to recruit people to that end. Um, and then you have to play the long game. When you're when you're either in the training division or you're in a cultural change, it is not going to happen overnight. And I like what what Rob had to say on his podcast about the TDA, you know, because I too want a TDA in my organization. I'm not the decision maker on that, but I surely support it and I made my opinion known. But the long game took nearly 14 years. What? Like that's crazy, isn't it? 14 years. Um, so not to say that it will take that long in your culture, but you got to have that long game in mind. What you start today may be a spark that turns into a forest fire in a little while. But trust me, there'll be a moment where you're gonna look back and you're like, oh my god, it's happening. Like it's happening. Like they're on board and they're on board, and the chiefs are are listening because you know, maybe I've recruited some other chiefs who are who kind of like are into it, or I lean into what they're into and I pull into what I'm doing, you know. Um, but I I think it starts at the officer level. You really got to get some officers on board to change that that culture.
SPEAKER_02I love that. I love the uh clarity of the focus of where your energy needs to be spent. I love that as a as advice. That's just powerful. That's something you can take away tonight from just listening to the scrap. If you're a training chief, if you're a training in charge of training in any way, shape, or form, understanding where to expend that energy is getting them on board is your best thing for your buck. And I I can't think of better advice.
SPEAKER_00Do not waste your time on the naysayers. You will have haters. Um, I don't that hate's a strong word. I I'm positive there's people in my own organization that maybe don't buy off of my philosophy. That's okay. It's okay. I'm not gonna change who I am, how I feel about my things, how enthusiastic I am, how passionate I am, but I'm not gonna feed you into your negative. I'm not gonna pacify you. You are the minority, right? Right now in my organization, I like to think the majority is with my enthusiasm. Maybe at not my level, that's okay. But while they're there, they're into it. They're they're ready, they're coming down to the training center, they're excited about it, they're they're at least receptive of what I say. Maybe they say something after I'm gone, that's fine. Making fun of me, whatever. I you know, funny story. I made a mistake of building one of those PVC chalk saws. You ever seen those? Like, look it up. It's okay. So it it's a it's a PVC you can make that looks like a chainsaw. The point is you put chalk on the end of it and you could just practice making okay, making coats, it's 79 codes, it's just sort of something to build some muscle memory and mechanics, right? Well, I thought it was a good idea until I sent it out there, and then it became a phallic symbol for uh jokes across the district with guys, right? Like to this day, I can see that dude. They don't they don't let like they don't let an opportunity pass to bust my chops, but that's okay. Like, you know, you're gonna win some and lose some. But but you made a PVC Peter pass it out to firefighters. Oh man, yeah, that that will probably be my legacy, is the chunk call.
SPEAKER_02I love it, I love it. All right, uh, you already covered book or books because that's one of my favorite questions. Show the book again, we'll talk about it very briefly because I'll hype him coming up next week.
SPEAKER_00Mind of fire, yes, the mind of fire by Kyle Samsey.
SPEAKER_02Kyle Samsey coming back on the scrap. He is one of the OGs, he is like the I want to say like the 15th or 16th guest that was ever on the scrap. So he was writing that in the low teens. Me at midnight.
SPEAKER_00And I I think this one is his revision. Um, he's done a revis revised version. You get it on Amazon, you get it, get it anywhere. It it's just been a really motivating read for me. Um, that and I just picked up Captain G. See my shirt. Oh, yeah, kind of FDIC. Um, Captain Gustin has been a profound impact in the state of Florida. Oh, in the fire, he is our guy. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like over the whole state, even in our region, with his connection with Kurt and the conferences over the years, we have a pack up here that we call the Gustin pack after the guy. And it's basically a New York fold that fits in a quint cabinet. Um, but, anyways, all that to say, fire engineering released the book of his writings, and I got it. And and if I had to say a second one, I'm excited to crack that open and read through all the wisdom that Captain Gustin has to give to us. Um, yeah, so much respect to that guy. He he never knew, like I crossed paths a lot with him, but I was mostly intimidated to talk to him a whole lot. But over the years, uh, you know, I've been on the receiving end of a butt of a joke or two and at seminars, but I've always had the most respect for him and his knowledge and his example that he has given all of us. And it was always a sense of pride when we saw his articles and fire engineering representing Florida because it wasn't a whole lot coming out in Florida 20 years ago, but he was all he was that mainstay. So I'm excited to crack that book. I opened the rapper today at work, like I got it on the shelf at work just to occasionally smell, yeah. Yeah, man. Sit down. I love having a book in my hand, yeah. But I'm excited to kind of get into that as well for sure.
SPEAKER_02Killer. No, my one Bill Gustin. I mean, a lot of Bill Gustin stories, and I was not ever like I was not a close friend with Bill. He came on the scrap one time. In fact, he's the only person he just hung up in the middle of the not in the middle, at the end of it. He's like, Well, we're done here. Okay, goodbye. And I was like, uh uh uh five questions, but never mind. It was but no, uh yeah, amazing, amazing influence. So, two phenomenal books, and Kyle is coming up next week, so that's a lot of hype for that. So we do a thing, and you've you've done it before, DJ. I don't know which questions you I should have should have done my proper research, so I know which questions you were actually asked last time, but okay, regardless, since I get in trouble for saying irregardless, but regardless, it's not a word, it's not a word.
SPEAKER_00That's what I was told. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I I have a I had a company officer who loved to bust my chops, but the uh the whole thing is it's like irregardless, right?
SPEAKER_03Irregardless I say it all the time.
SPEAKER_02No, uh, but you have the five questions for firefighters coming at you. The the questions are there is no correct answer, they're just your opinions, and the points are arbitrary, passed out by me with the help of the YouTube audience. So are you ready for the current iteration, whether you've heard them before or not? Um number one, you can be anything in the world except be a firefighter. What would you choose to be?
SPEAKER_00Probably a musician. I mean, I am a musician, I play drums, but probably to be on tour and entertain and play music every night. Easy.
SPEAKER_02Nice, nice. How long you been playing?
SPEAKER_00Um geez, probably 20 years plus.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I started off in an indie band way back in the day. Can it be found anywhere?
SPEAKER_02Can can any YouTube videos be found?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, 238-238. It's still out there. Uh, got picked up by a somewhat of a major label right when I got into the fire service, but nice little indie rock, emo-ish, whatever, making fun of it.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I love it. Dude, right up my alley.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I did a couple recordings of them, which was really cool. Um, that is awesome. I'm gonna look 238, 238. Yep, 238.
SPEAKER_02And then what was the meaning of 238?
SPEAKER_00Because it's it was after scripture in the Bible. We we were faith-based guys, but it's not your typical Christian rock. It was just like we were believers that played music, right? Like, so it wasn't like, hey, we're trying to I don't know, sing about the Bible or anything. It was uh the the front man's uh was a very creative guy and uh storyteller. So we did it kind of when then there wasn't really a lot of people doing that, but that was just who we are, and we were in steeped in uh the indie punk rock scene in Pensacola area, and we played a ton and we did a little bit of touring, and then as they gained steam, I got responsible, got married, and had a baby, and then got a real job. So love it, but I man, best memories of my life next to my family and surfing would be just playing drums, man. And and I played drums for off and on for years at church and a couple of the side peat things, and probably when I retire, I would love to do um a cover band. Here's my idea for cover band. It's called one hit thunder. One hit thunder, and the concept is I'm gonna play all one hit wonder songs from like the 80s and the 90s. Heck yeah. So the prereq is like you gotta have one hit, and then those are typically really easy to play and very simple. So I'm like dress up like a character or something. I don't know. Yeah, no, I love it. One hit thunder. It would be fun to play music again.
SPEAKER_02We're gonna put we're gonna put uh the the weekly scrap. Uh everybody that's a musician is gonna we're gonna we're gonna make one hit thunder, dude. That would be awesome. You officially gave us our name, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know how many drummers have be on the lookout. We'll be on the tour.
SPEAKER_02We'll be set.
SPEAKER_00All right, we could do we could we could do like a a tour of one hit thunder cover songs, and then you do your class like somewhere else the next day or something.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, one hit thunder, or it's just a social leadership all day, leadership and culture building, and then one hit thunder that night. I'm down. All right, it's a terrible idea, but I'm I'm in. Okay, number two, it's job town. Speaking of songs, it's job town, it's time. Think of the scene from backdraft. You are in route and responding, slapping that cassette tape into that cassette deck. What song are you playing while in route? And keep in mind, this is gonna be added to the Spotify playlist where it will live forever.
SPEAKER_00Um, I I I think I was listening to it. I'm sorry, man. I'm I'm terrible with uh band, I think it was an AC DC song. Um I'm trying to think. I'll I can pull it up right now, but Thunder or something like that. Does that make sense? Um Thunderstroke, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. Oh that's just a full song, isn't it? I know someone's probably already said it.
SPEAKER_02Rock intros of all time. I'm pretty sure it's on the list.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like you yes, there would be nothing better than yeah, man. There's nothing better than gearing up.
SPEAKER_02That's one of the best intros of all time.
SPEAKER_00Like, being a header and listening to this song, yeah, you know what I mean. So I was thinking about that when I was running the other day, just imagining being back on the rig and you know, going to a fire again. So I don't know. That would that would be my choice.
SPEAKER_02Oh, a max point ACDC Thunderstruck, max points, and of course, you know, yeah, no, no doubt about it. Two for two, max points. Number three, cold weekend at the station. Jobs uh training's done, rig checks are done, PT's done, everything's done. You're not being lazy, but it is a lazy weekend at the station. Food is in the crock pot, and you're clicking through on that remote, you know, and that movie's there. And it doesn't matter what point the movie's at, it doesn't matter that it's on USA with 400 chat commercials coming. What's that movie that you're gonna finish no matter how many times you've seen it before? What's that movie for you?
SPEAKER_00Easy Back to the Future 1985.
SPEAKER_02The original? Okay.
SPEAKER_00I always wanted the toy out in the garage. Been my dream since I was a kid. Ask my wife, man. It's back to the future. I say it every time.
SPEAKER_02Marty McFly.
SPEAKER_00Love it.
SPEAKER_02Everything. All right, I can't argue. And that's uh uh Huey Lewis in the news, man. That was there.
SPEAKER_00Dude, hoverboards. I'm still waiting on them. Yeah, where they at? I want a hoverboard.
SPEAKER_02I remember when the what was it, the 30-year anniversary rolled by and they were like, We're or the no, it was the year, it was the time, it was the date and they went to in the future. When and that was back to the future, too. But when they yeah, so anyway, you've been talking too much around the five questions here. Okay, cut it out, BJ. Uh, focus, we're serious here. On the clock max points for back to the future, by the way. I don't think anyone said that before 88 miles an hour on the clock. If you go over no points, if you talk after no points, you get one minute to put your four people on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service.
SPEAKER_00Dude, go man, come on. There's no there is no, and and I've seen other people do this. I'll I'll agree, there's no other, there's no other way, but I'd have to say Captain Gustin would be one of them. Um for sure. Man, you know, um Brunusini, I think, is just a giant. Like the guy is maybe fallen out of favor with some, but he's still admirable uh to me. Um I think Chief Dunn, Vincent Dunn from the FDN Line.
SPEAKER_02Hard to argue, hard to argue.
SPEAKER_00And the fourth one, um, and these are just like the greatest, I think, just the greatest in the fire service.
SPEAKER_02It's your Mount Rushmore.
SPEAKER_00Uh you know it had to be my brother. I just have to say it. Not getting sappy, but he has just been a huge influence on me.
SPEAKER_02I can only imagine, man. I can only imagine. And that's a hell of a Mount Rushmore. Easy, easy, easy max points. And it's not a fair question. That's that that's the worst part about the the we had to put the clock on it because it's such an unfair question. People would spend 20 minutes explaining everybody they would put on the Mount Rushmore. So we had to, yeah, and uh, but it's not fair.
SPEAKER_00We could do like a modern Mount Rushmore, and then like one that I did was just kind of a throwback to the past.
SPEAKER_02You had legends, yeah. Legends, you got personal, you got all sorts of ways you can go.
SPEAKER_00We have a lot of living legends right now, like there, there's still a lot of right now, some really highly influential and powerful people, you know, doing stuff. You you're one of them, Corley. Like you you've changed the fire service and what you're doing, you know. So there's a lot of people I think that deserve credit for stuff like that, moving the needle in a global fashion in the fire service.
SPEAKER_02I'm the luckiest dude in the fire service, plain and simple, for getting to have these conversations with you and and everybody that is passionate each and every week, man, without a doubt. Uh, so I forgot where I was. Max points is what I was passing out. Four for four. Final question. You've had it before. Heavy fire, searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES? Um, I still take the nozzle.
SPEAKER_00Um, I'm I've been on the VES part and it's pretty incredible, successfully and non-successfully, but man, there's something about taking something out of control and bringing it into control, you know, that is unexplainable. Um, and and it's one of the reasons next to surfing in nature in something that is essentially traveling thousands of miles and you're riding it in a somewhat controlled fashion. And when it gets big, you're in control of nothing, you're along for the ride. Firefighting is the only other thing that I've experienced that you're able to get the feeling of controlling that thing. Like, man, I wrote it. Like it was you're bulldozing through the front door on something, and it comes into control, and then you walk away and then you think about what could have been, but it didn't happen, it's pretty tremendous.
SPEAKER_02No, it's an awesome answer. Awesome answer. And this is the best part about uh my memory and and the number of scraps I've done, the number of times I've asked that question. I don't remember what you said last time.
SPEAKER_00So every time no one else says neither, neither do I, so it's all new.
SPEAKER_02Every time I it's like I'm listening, even though you've answered it before, I don't remember what you said. So every time it's like the first time for me, so it's a good place to be. And that officially makes it five for five, officially makes it max points five for five, and that officially puts 353 scraps in the books. DJ Stone, thank you for spending your evening with us and your wisdom that you've gained over the years. But most importantly, uh, if someone wants to get a hold of you, if someone wants to reach out and say, Hey, I have an idea for your your project, or I want to I want to look at bringing you in to teach the grab analysis or insert whatever, what is the best way?
SPEAKER_00Um, first of all, thank you for inviting me, man. It it doesn't, I don't take it lightly, I don't take any of these lightly. I'm always grateful, always grateful for opportunity um really to do any of this. Uh so anyways, I've yeah, anyway, anyways. If you want to get a hold of me, the best way to do it is I'm an old man, Facebook's my lane. I don't do Instagram, I don't do TikToks, I don't do any of that. Facebook, um, look me up, David DJ Stone. Um, or 850 fireman is a page that me and my brother loosely do. Uh, we we should probably concentrate more on it, but occasionally we'll post through there. Uh, I'll check messages every so often along with my brother. You can get a hold of me there, or my email, which is simple. It's 850 fireman at gmail.com. 850 fireman at gmail.com. That's really the best way to get in contact. Um, I don't really want to throw my phone number out there. I don't mind, but I get enough like send calls all day just to email me. I am very responsive. I don't know what it is about me. I'm a tasker. So if you email me, it's gonna be bothering me until I can get back with you. And I usually do that as as quick as I can.
SPEAKER_02So no, they got ways to get a hold of you. I think it's a good. So there you go. Yeah. Housekeeping from me, go to patreon.com slash the vigilantees. Go become a vigilante. If you're not a vigilante, why not? It is what all the cool kids are doing. And the best part about it is you get to join the after party, which is where we invite the guests, not required to come, but they're invited to come and get roasted for their performance on the scrap. And it's a blast. Each and not only that, you got vigilante meetups, you got the most important thing is access to the discord. The discord is unreal, and it's popping off. It's it's it's it's growing in its activity. It's it's it's awesome. If you're not a part, you should become a part, and it's not easy to get there. I'll just be I'll just be frank with you. You'll join the Patreon, and then you got to figure out how to get into the Discord, and that's part of the challenge. So just enjoy it. Uh, coming up next week, we talked about it. Mind of fire, Kyle Samson. He is coming up, one of the smartest dudes in the fire service. So tune in next week. You do not want to miss our conversation on what he has got going on. Two weeks from today, it will be time for another dose of one of the most watch scrappers of all time, Cody Trestrel himself. So we will be talking all about what he's got coming up with firemanship, all about what he's got going on with brothers in battle and everything else. That he's, of course, he's Cody. So Cody is Cody. And where are we at? Enough jabbering. Yeah, basically, I just say let's get to the after party. Thank you once again, DJ Stone. I love our conversations, whether it's on here, on the phone, or in person. I've enjoyed every one of them, and I look forward to the next one.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for being a phenomenal guest.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02And audience, you know I love you. You tune in each and every week. And in spite of me being here, you still show up. You all you ask awesome questions of the awesome guest, and I appreciate you so much. The scrap doesn't exist without you. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning. This job will never be safe. So stay smart out there. Thanks for listening to the weekly scrap. Please subscribe and please share. We'll see you at the next episode.