This work that we do is so dynamic and so challenging that you'll be in situations, both with personnel as well as on the fire ground, of course, where things are changing all the time. You got to be able to think on your feet. And that's one of the most important things I think people need to understand is that you have to be able to adapt and make split-second decisions. Firehouse Vigilance presents the weekly scrap, a podcast dedicated to the never-ending fight against complacency. Holymore, Firehouse Vigilance. It is weekly scrap, number 357. My guest tonight is Tom Richardson. Chief Richardson served the FBY for 42 years, retiring as Chief of Department. He has been a volunteer firefighter in Deer Park since 1978 and served as chief of department at various times. He currently serves on the board of fire commissioners for the Deer Park Fire District. Chief Richardson is a 2010 graduate of the Naval Postgraduate School Center for Homeland Defense and Security, where he earned a Master of Arts degree in security studies. He has received his undergraduate degree at SUNY Empire State College. He has also attended both the FDNY's Advanced Leadership Courses, the Fire Officers Management Institute, and the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point. So, man, you know this episode is going to be crammed full of knowledge. It is my absolute pleasure to have you back on the show once more, Chief Tom Richardson. Welcome to number 357 of the scrap. Well, Corley, thank you for having me. And uh I had a blast the last time with my colleagues, and uh it's good to be back in the solo mode this this night, right? So uh we'll get to spend a lot of time speaking about hopefully a bunch of different topics. I'm looking forward to it. No, and I look forward to having Joe on also. And of course, yeah, good. Frank Frank is one of my best friends. He's Frank is the man. Frank is the man. We don't know where Frank is right now. I uh he's he's he's traveling somewhere, I'm sure. I like to like to do like the old Carmen San Diego, where in the world is Frank Lee. Yeah, kind of thing. Is there anything I missed in the intro? Is there anything Oh good, man? I uh you know what? Uh at the end of the day, all of the all of the the background and everything. You know what? We're all the same here, and I'm just like all of your listeners, the one thing that we can't ever forget is just we're all firefighters. That's the bottom line. We all start off as firefighters, no matter how high up we go in in the in the ranks. Uh at the end of the day, we're firefighters. And when you become a leader in the fire service, you're a firefighter leading firefighters, you know, and you you study for promotion. And uh I I always try to remember that as I as I moved up the ranks, uh, both as a volunteer and and as a career firefighter. So I think that's very, very important. Now, beautifully said, Chief. Beautifully said. Uh the crowd is here. They are tuning in, they are already getting their questions ready and throwing them. Sam is here. Sam is making us look good on camera or doing his best and attempt to do so. And he is also looking for your questions in the YouTube channel. So put the questions in the chat for Chief Richardson if you want him to answer your questions. Get them in there. And right now I'm going to talk about those beautiful sponsors. Everything in the fire service gets tested training, instincts, equipment. That's why Snaptight designs and builds its fire hose to perform no matter the challenge. Durability, packability, kink resistance, every single line is tested before it leaves the factory so you know you can count on it. Snaptight, it's American-made firefighter trusted. Visit Snaptighthose.com to learn more or find a distributor near you. 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And I like to hype uh yawonfire.com. So go check it out. And of course, I always like to say if you're not a vigilante, why not? Go become a vigilante if you know you know. And that's all that needs to be said. With all that out of the way, we can get to scrapping with Chief Richardson. So, how come you don't call it all y'all on fire instead of y'all on fire? All y'all. That just happens to be his last name, but that would be a way to go with y'all. Uh so chief, I always like to ask my guests what do they want to talk about? And you sent me an amazing list, and I get to so much, so much to choose from, but you sent two words that that is that that I want to hear what you mean when you say command presence. What does that mean to you? And we'll start there. Sure, no problem. I think command presence, you know, a lot of people when they see those two words right away, they think of a chief officer, you know, the guy or gal that's standing out in front of the building, and and that is part of it, right? But I think, in my view, uh command presence, I think covers a lot of different uh a lot of different parts of what we do. And what I mean by that is from the senior firefighter in a fire station or a fire company, the senior firefighter that has that personality or that presence in the firehouse that demands respect, that sets the tone, right, that makes sure that the younger firefighters are are taught the right way. So it starts at the ground level, at the grassroots, at the boots on the ground level in the firehouse. The people in that firehouse that have that type of presence in the company or in the station that can pass it on, pass on their experiences. And I would argue to be able to demand excellence, right? So you all know people that are like that, right? That set the tone in the station, making sure that everybody's on the same page, everybody understands, listen, when we come to work, we're in the firehouse. From the time you walk in that door, you got to be ready and you got to be prepared and ready to go when the tones go off or the bells go off, whatever the notification system is. So I think it starts at the boots on the ground level, and then as you move up in rank. You all out there in the audience have worked with various fire officers, you know, company officers in your departments, and you know those that have it, that have that command presence. And I've always felt like you know it when you see it, like right. You know the people that are the ones that you want to follow, that you want to emulate, right, that you want to learn from, right? They they just have what it takes. They have something to look up to. You know, I I always found the the folks that I looked up to, they had it. You know, and there's been a lot of articles written about command presence, and everybody has a different take on it, a different view, maybe. But I think at the firefighter level, at the company officer level, and then both I I think the other the other distinction that I I would point out, you know, there's command presence in the station, there's command presence on the fire ground, right? Yes. Right. So when you're crawling down the hallway and you have that guy and gal that they just got what it takes, man. They could talk you through hell. You know what I mean? They have what it takes to get you down the hallway, get you to the dude the next room. All right, kid, come on, one more room, right? And then at the chief officer level, I know as a young firefighter, I would be um amazed at watching chief officers in the street, like it was a disaster happening right now. You know, it was just a major working fire. And these guys were just calm as cucumbers, man, and they were able to get it done or just kind of say a couple of words on the radio, point, point a couple of things out, and the brothers and sisters would just go do their thing. And these guys or gals, they they kept it tight, they kept it calm. And to me, a lot of the command presence qualities, or one of the major qualities in my view, is always calmness. You know, we we all know screamers when we go to fires. We know the screamers, uh, both officers and chief officers. And screaming doesn't do anybody any good on the fire scene, man. Certainly doesn't do anybody any good in the firehouse either. You know, I always felt like uh I worked with some people that were uh they they were angry people, like in you dealt with them, they were just angry people, like you know, and that that doesn't build confidence because I believe that command presence instills confidence in the troops, you know, uh, and again, from in all ranks, from firefighter all the way up. And I think when you become uh a senior leader in the fire department, you know, I had the good fortune to move up the ranks in in my job. I think that when you're a senior leader, um you you you are able to really make a difference at the organizational level if you have command presence. Like if you could get on a forum like this, right? You know, uh you know, today a lot of people use Zoom and all the other platforms to do meetings. And when you run a meeting, sometimes people that run a meeting and have command presence, and they have a way about them that they can get results or get people to speak up, get people to participate. Uh so I think command presence uh is something that's so important in all aspects of the job, not only in a firehouse or meetings or uh, but particularly on the fire ground. So kind of that's my that's my view on command presence. I think it it uh it transcends all parts of the organization, all parts of the fire service. No, it's beautiful, the definition and breakdown. What I one thing you said in there is that we've all seen those people that we look up to and we want to emulate, and we we've had those people in our lives, especially when we're younger, we identify them. What I want to know from you is as you as you like you said, you were lucky enough to promote and move up, but as you moved up, did you have a is there something you looked for when you were looking back down to identify people that you thought had it and and maybe find anything you looked for? So the the one thing I always kind of admired from those that I really looked up to were those that were they were good teachers, and they did it very humbly. Like they didn't pound their chest, I know this and I know that. They put their hand on your shoulder and they showed you the way. Like, right, whether it was at a drill, you know, in the firehouse or at a drill location, uh, and they they said, Hey, Tom, did you try this or why don't you try that? And then at a fire, of course, you know, that company officer that could put their hand on your shoulder or on your back and say, All right, kid, come on, me and you, we're gonna do this. We got this, you know. Right. Uh, I looked at the people that particularly had that that teaching talent, if you want to call it that, or that ability to just kind of want you make you want to learn from them. Like, you know, I I don't know a better word. They make you want to learn from them. And one of the things that I always tell young firefighters, because people told me this. Whenever somebody tried to teach you something or show you something, the worst thing that you could do is say, I got it, I know that. Right because they'll never they'll never help you again. So no matter what you know, no how much you know, if somebody's willing to help you and willing to teach you something, listen to them. Because they might bring they might bring you something that you never heard it from that perspective. You might already know the uh the skill, if you want to call it, the skill or the or what they're trying to get across. You might have experienced that. But hearing things from different perspectives is is important in this business. Because everybody, there's there's there's different ways to do things, right? There's different ways to force doors, right? There's different ways to cut a roof, there's different ways to do different things, right? So anybody that had that talent, uh, I was always looking up to learn from those type of people. And they and those that were humble about it, like right. We all work with people that think you know who they are. Oh yeah, you know, oh yeah. You know how they are. And and a lot of good people, but they they let you know that they know, like, right? So I always appreciated the more humble people, like people that showed a little humility uh as they were showing you the way and and teaching you the right way. So, you know, that that's kind of like how I looked at and what I was looking for. Somebody I could teach me. No, that's beautiful because the I I look back uh at some of the people I worked with, and and especially as I've gotten to ranks of authority and stuff, and I would look down and say, okay, why does this person have why what what is what am I I but the way you described it there when you said they made people want to learn from them? Like that was that was the it factor now that you put it into words that I never quite put into words before. Even people I didn't know, I'd be at a fire as a young firefighter, as a young officer, even as a chief officer, and I would watch people and I say, I don't even know this person, but man, I I want to be like them. I I I I I want them to teach me, you know. I just saw something in in certain people that made me want to call them on the phone or go over to them and ask them questions and kind of you know, uh be like a sponge and hit listen to what they had to say. Right on. No, no, that's I I've never heard it put into those words, and so I really like that. They the people that you want to learn from. Yeah, trust. Man, what a powerful word, trust. But the importance of trust as it relates to leadership in the firehouse and on the fire ground. So let's talk about trust and and how according to Chief Richardson, yeah. So I I think this is one of the one of the more important tenets of leadership, right? Uh and it it goes almost to what we were talking about just a few minutes ago. When you trust somebody, you will follow them, right? Anywhere. Like, right. So what I I try to do, particularly as a chief officer, I wanted my firefighters and my fire officers to trust me, you know, as a leader, as a fire ground commander. I wanted them to trust me as a uh a fair-minded um person, if you will. And you know, anytime I dealt with them. But as a chief officer, if you can let your people know, like your company officers know, that you trust them, you trust their decision making, you know, and this takes time to build trust, right? It's a mutual thing, right? You gotta it it comes and goes, and it's a give and take. But the idea, and and the reason why I put this here was many, many times, and you could probably relate to this, most of the people listening. You ever been to fires and emergencies where the incident commander is like the biggest micromanager you've ever heard of? They gotta tell everybody every single thing to do. That's no good in this business. Because here's how I used to say I'm the chief standing in the street. My firefighters and officers are doing their thing. Like you're in the street in in usually in uh the clear air, like you know, you're not sucking in smoke. Sometimes you are in the street, but I don't know what everybody, I know what they're supposed to be doing, sure, but I I don't know exactly what they're doing. Right. I'm I'm looking, I'm watching, I'm reading the fire situation, but I gotta know that I could trust these folks to make the right calls and make the decisions while they're crawling around in heat and smoke. Like, so it you we have to train our people to be able to do that so that I can trust them, right? So um, and then when it comes to personnel kind of things in the firehouse situation, um if we don't have a mutual trust between us, whether it's firefighter or officer, firefighter to firefighter for that matter, and then officer to chief officer, if we don't have a mutual trust and we can't trust each other, we're not gonna we're not gonna have a good working relationship, at least in my experience over the years. Um so I I felt that trust is such a most a big important part of being a leader. Uh, and again, in all ranks, in all ranks, I think trust is very, very important. Listen, this business is built on trust. Think about it. You're you're stretching a line or you're crawling around in a building with your partner, your search partner. Uh, we we have to rely on one another. We got to trust each other, man. You know, we're we're watching out for one another. That's this this business is built on trust, quite frankly, uh at the at the the most simple levels, like right. So I think that trust is uh it has to permeate the entire the entire fire fire dynamic, if you will, like from from in quarters to out of quarters to in the in the uh in the uh in the fire ground. No, go ahead. Go ahead. I didn't want to go to that. No, no, no. So many I there's so many uh threads I want to pull on when you talk about and your and your career and things like that. And I don't know how many different engine house, ladder houses that you were assigned to throughout your professional career and what all you did in the volunteer. But is there any um go-to habits that you used? I don't know another word than habits or or or tricks or or whatever, I don't want to say tricks, but anything go that that you use to build trust, especially with a new crew or anything like that. I think the way that one of the ways that you can uh get people to trust you in particular is teach them and then have them almost teach you back. I don't know if that makes any sense. Like uh I want to know that you you got my message, right? But then I want you to be able to teach me back or teach others what I just taught you. So I think that um by by doing that, we build a mutual trust with one another, if that makes any sense. It really does, yeah. So so I think that the other part of that is I believe it's very, very important to really know the people you work with, both as a career firefighter and a volunteer firefighter. Now, I think I was a I've been a volunteer a very long time, you know. I I'm not as active as I was, but when I was very active in the volunteer fire department, uh you know, the the one wild thing about volunteer fire departments is that honestly and truthfully, many times you don't know who's showing up. You don't know who's showing up. So this trusting becomes even more important, like right? Because like, you know, like oftentimes we talk like the A team, the B team, the C team kind of thing. And you know, I can remember being a chief officer in the volunteers, and you can listen to the radio as the apparatus is leaving quarters, and you'd hear the voice of the person that. In the officer seat, and you're like, wow, oh man, this isn't going to be good. Like, you know what I mean? I might have to get a little more involved here. But if if if that's the case, then maybe I didn't, or we didn't do as an organization, we didn't do as good a job of making sure that that person is competent enough to do the job. Like, right? So the volunteers, it's a little, it's a little more difficult, I think, to uh it takes a long time to build trust amongst the volunteers. The only thing I will say, like in my case, it's a small community where I live. Uh a lot of the people I joined the fire department were people I went to high school with, you know, we knew each other. We all know each other. And that's that's a benefit in the volunteer outfit. Like a lot of people know each other because our families grow up in the same neighborhoods, we know each other from town. Sure. Uh so uh being able to build that trust level maybe sometimes can be a little bit easier, but especially if but if you're not if you're not doing a lot of work, if you're not doing a lot of fires, um you got to train a lot. And so that's how you we're able to build that com those those relationships. But I kind of went off on a tangent, but I think that to your to your question, you know, if I had you know one thing, is that what you said, one thing to to I mean if you have more than one, I'm sure people would love to hear it, but no, but yeah. I believe that you have to instill um a sense of duty. Uh and I talked about it earlier. I mentioned the word excellence. We want people to know, I need you to be really good. I need you to aspire to be as good as you possibly can be. And everybody's not from the same talent pool, like right, we young, we know that. But a friend of mine, and I probably said this on the last show when I was on, a good friend of mine used to say to me, You give me somebody with heart and desire, I can make them a firefighter. Right on. They gotta want it, man. If they got it here, we'll make them a firefighter. So um I look for those people. I used to always look for them. You know who they are, right? You know who they are when they walk through the door. This, this, this person's gonna be a good firefighter because they want to be a good firefighter. You know, other people, you got to bring them along a little bit more. So um looking for those people that have that heart and desire. Because this is not a business where you you you just show up, you know, and you know, do it half-assed. You gotta be all in, in my opinion. And we all know people that aren't in all in. Like the way it is. Uh in the volunteer fire service, you know, you got people from all walks of life, right? Who's the electrician, who's the plumber, who whatever, who's a school teacher. Um, and and now you want to make them into a firefighter. And again, the folks that stand out are the folks that have the heart and want to do the job. Like, you know, and when people volunteer in a volunteer organization, man, that speaks volumes in itself. They came down, they said, hey man, I want to help my community. That's a big deal. You know, you just got to show them the way, and you gotta uh show them the right way, you know, and and that, and that's you know, it depends who they interact with initially. Now, in the career service, it's a little different because most people have to go to a fire academy and do some uh basic training before they go to a fire station or firehouse. Sure. And so you can instill a little more uh uh discipline in somebody. You know, I think discipline is important. I think routine is important. I think teaching people good routines. Good routine. And what I mean by that is making sure, listen, that you know how to put your personal protective equipment on the right way every single time. You know, practice, practice, practice. Routine, setting up your gear the right way, making sure that you you you you you you can do it perfectly every single time. Like even just putting on a face piece before you go into a fire. If if you teach people a good routine on how to do that, right, how to put the face piece on, how to get the hood on, how to get your helmet on with your chin strap, and do that effectively and do that competently. Um, so routine is important too. So I'd say discipline, routine. We talked about trust. We talked about uh repetition is another one. Just repetition, man. Repetition. To master something, you need many, many, many, many reps, right? Many reps. So that's where training comes in. If you're not doing fires, you got to make up the reps somehow, right? Right on. It's on the training ground. It's on the training ground. I love it, Chief. It's great stuff. Okay, we got questions coming at you from the audience. In fact, they're stacking up, so I'm gonna start throwing some at you. You never know what, you never know what you're gonna get. Whiskey, Mike, is coming at you. He says, How can we instill good values to people just starting their careers to make them good leaders down the road as they grow up? Yeah, good values. Well, you know what? I think values as a person, right, uh, are so important. So I think a lot of times, I think a lot depends on your background, where you came from, you know. But when you come into this business in the fire service, you know, I would say values like we talked about trust, loyalty, uh humility, um, integrity, you know, teaching people that this is a kind of business where you want to teach people to do the right thing, right? Do the right thing when nobody else is looking, right? Right. You know, we want to teach people ethical behavior, you know, how to treat people with respect. You know, so I think all of those values that I just mentioned are just integral uh to making a good firefighter, outside of the skills. You know, skills are one thing, but if you teach people values and you teach people the importance of service, respect, integrity, all the things I just mentioned, uh, I think those are, and that's not easy to do, especially when you don't know somebody, you don't know where they came from, you don't know what their background is all the time. But you gotta that's why it's important as a leader, even as a senior firefighter, to get to know the people you're gonna be working with. Get to know them, get to know a little bit about them. What's their family like? Are they married? Do they have children? What's their names? You know, what's your wife's name? You know, uh, how's your family? You know, like stuff like that. I think that's how you make people more comfortable uh as as you as you're bringing them along. Right on, right on. Great question, Whiskey Mike. Next one's coming from Fireman JG. And he says, how does someone with seven years on a volunteer department make the transition in career change to go to a full-time department? Any advice for that? That's a great question. So when I came into the New York City fire department, I I had been a volunteer for about three years. And back then I was 21 years old. So I thought, I I got this. I got this. You know, I I know what I'm doing here. I know. I had a I had some familiar some familiarity with the business. I knew what an SCBA was. I knew uh, but if you come from a volunteer organization, you're gonna go to the career side. I think once again, man, I I come back to this word a lot. I think you got to be humble. You got to go in there and say, basically, don't go in there thinking you know everything or you got this. Like be humble. Listen to that point I made before about if somebody's gonna show you something. The simplest thing. You know, I'm gonna take a nozzle, I'm gonna show you how to operate the nozzle properly. Even though you may have done it a bunch of times in seven years as a volunteer, listen to what they have to say. Don't ever take for granted. That's number one. Number two, I think a lot of times when people make that transition, uh they they come in a little bit overconfident. You know what I mean? Overconfident. Yeah. And and again, it comes down to being a little humble and understanding that this job will make you humble. Like, you know, there's gonna be times when you think you got this, you think I'm a pretty good firefighter. And then I said this to somebody the other day, I said it to my son the other day, actually. My son's a young firefighter. You're only as good as your last fire. Guys used to tell me that all the time, because the fire you go to today, you screwed it up. That's the beauty of this job, is that you you you're learning constantly. You're never gonna know everything in this business, ever. And you're only as good as your last fire. You made the wrong move at this fire today, my man. But if you learn from it and you don't repeat the mistake again. So uh you're only as good as your last fire. I thought that was one of the greatest pieces of advice I ever heard in my career. And I heard it early, early on, and it's true. So as a chief, how many times I screwed fires up and I'm like, thank God these firefighters and officers knew what they were doing because I messed this one up pretty badly, you know. So, you know, it comes and goes. So as long as nobody gets hurt or more or more seriously uh than that, um, we we did our job. But um moving from a volunteer to a career position, be humble. Uh don't take for granted, and don't be overconfident. That's my that would be my advice. There you go. So if you wanted advice, you got some good ones right there. Uh Benno, Benno's coming at you, says, share your thoughts on professionalism in a volunteer department. What do you say to members when you hear we are only volunteers and stuff like we do pretty good? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I often laugh because a lot of times, you know, a lot of volunteer departments, and I have a bunch of them all out here on Long Island where I live, you know, we all pound our chest and say, we're we're professional volunteers. And you've heard this line before, too, is that you know, a fire doesn't care for the career of volunteer, man. It's the same thing, right? Uh but it matters that you you train, you act, and and you know what? In a volunteer system, I always used to say this we're serving the community that we live in. So we need to be the best we could possibly be. You know, we you know, we're only volunteers. No, you're not. You're a firefighter. If you if you raised your right hand, I always tell people, nobody forced you to raise your right hand when you came here. You came here, you asked for an application, you joined, you you took, you know, the training to be a uh the basic training to start your you start your volunteer career. You can't just say, I'm only a volunteer, I don't have to do this. No. If you raised your right hand, you took an oath, just like a career firefighter does, to serve your community. So you have an obligation and I think you have a moral imperative to do the right thing and be the best you can be. And I don't, I I never like that, I'll call it an excuse when people say I'm only a volunteer. No. If you took the position, uh you made the commitment, and I used to tell my kids this all the time. When you make a commitment, a commitment's a commitment. If you can't make the commitment, then don't do it. Like, right? You know, and we all know people that make commitments sometimes and they don't live up to their commitment. And uh that's not fair to the organization, it's not fair to the community. So I think that, you know, professional volunteerism is good. That's a good thing. That's a good thing to aspire to, uh, to be the best volunteer firefighter you could possibly be. Uh, make all the trainings, do the best you can, and you know, teach those values that we talked about before within your organization. And remember, and and it's so important, and people forget, you're serving the community you live in. Your neighbors, probably some of your family members, right? Cousins, aunts, uncles, even people that you call aunts and uncles, and cousins that really are just family friends, but you're that close with them. So, you know, I think it's almost like I want to be the best I could possibly be because I'm helping my neighbors, I'm helping my community, right? So I don't buy that uh that I'm only a volunteer. Uh I never did, and uh I I I uh I used to take exception to it, actually, to be honest with you. You know, I oh I I don't have to come to all this training, I'm only a volunteer. So listen, if you aren't good at what you do, and I don't care who you are, volunteer or career, you can get killed doing this job. You can get killed doing this kind of work. I don't care how many fires you go to, it only takes one fire. Only takes one fire. And uh we could probably all tell stories about people that got seriously hurt um at the one or two fires they went to in their whole volunteer career, but because they weren't prepared. So preparation is huge. Right on. I see a theme here, Chief. I see a theme. Yeah, very consistent. No, it's great. Uh I got one coming at you from Pooley Involved-Z. He says, Chief, what were some lessons learned from the Twin Parks fire as a chief officer? So I don't know most of your audience may know because I'm sure Frank Leap talked about it. Frank was the uh Frank was the staff chief on duty that day, so he ultimately becomes the incident commander when he gets there. Um, I got there, you know, well after the fact. Um but some of the lessons that I heard about, you know, from the initial chief officers there is firefighters, you know, they want to run into burning buildings, they want to, they want to just put fires out, they want to do searches, they want to put ladders up. But at that particular fire, what one of the most important skills that firefighters had there that saved a tremendous amount of lives were their medical skills. Frank said that at one point I think they were doing CPR on like whatever, 30 people at one time in the street. Yeah. And the firefighters, to their credit, jumped right in. You know, they they they did what they were supposed to do, uh, and it had nothing to do with fighting fire, but they they saved a lot of people's lives. They resuscitated a lot of people. I think 17 people died, but I think they they I think there might have been over 30 people in cardiac arrest. So the the the lesson there is take your medical training seriously because you never know when you're gonna need it. You know, now that was on civilians. Um but you know, on it on another note, your medical training is so important. One of your brother or sister firefighters goes down, right? You you should you better be on your game. So that was one lesson. The medical training is we take it for granted sometimes. A lot of guys, yeah, they don't nobody likes doing it, like right? You're tired of it because we we do a lot of it. We've all been there, yeah. Yeah, man, and you get complacent, right? But when when when you need it, you that's what we do. We're supposed to do, we're supposed to save lives. So however we do it, we do it. That was one. Um, one of the other lessons that I I I had, you know, that came out of that job. Um the use of exterior streams. You know, that fire was on a lower floor, you know, and I'm sure Frank talked about this. I I don't remember if they actually did operate an exterior stream at one point, but if you remember a little bit about that fire, it was what they called a duplex apartment, and it was a duplex down, like going into a basement. And it was it was rocking and rolling, you know. And I think they did get a line to the back of the building or the side of the building where they were, they they were able to, I don't know if they actually did, but sometimes it's necessary to coordinate an exterior stream with what's going on on the interior uh for a quick knockdown. You know, there's been a lot of a lot of training, a lot of uh talk about the use of exterior streams. And, you know, my career, you know, guys, ah, we don't fight fire from the odds. You know, but sometimes uh what we've learned and I learned over the course of my career is that sometimes you need to do what you need to do, you know, to uh to get a hold or get a handle on a fire. So when you have that serious of a fire, uh be prepared to to have an extra hose line, you know, on the exterior if needed, you know, and a hose line inch three-quarter line, you could get up a few floors for sure. A two and a half inch line. I remember we did some tests. You could do probably six stories up with a two and a half inch line if you had to, right? So I think that was that was something. Um the other the other lesson learned there was was uh transmitting multiple alarms quickly to get enough people there. Now in New York City, we got more, we got more people and we know what to do with sometimes. Sometimes we have too many people. But because you know, because of the the the nature of that building, uh we needed a lot of people and the the incident commanders, the first chiefs on the scene, the battalion and the division chiefs, they did a tremendous job. You know, that that went to like a I don't I think it was a fifth alarm. I don't remember what I think it was a fifth alarm. Um they called, they transmitted the multiple alarms early on. So whether you were in a career department or a volunteer department, whatever you need to do to get more people there when you have fires like that, you need to do it as soon as possible, man. You got to have a plan for that, and you have to be able to know when you need more people. And everybody's staffing levels are different, right? So for New York City to get 40 people on the scene, that's a working, a regular working fire. You know, uh, you know, uh on all hands, one alarm fire in New York City is like 40 to 55 fighters. That's a crazy. It's nuts. You know, sometimes we we overwhelm the fire, like you know. In in other places around the country where you guys come from, maybe the staffing is not there, you know. So what does it take when you if you need 55 fighters, how long is it gonna take you to get 55 fighters? Right. No, no, you know what I mean? So those were three, I think, important lessons uh that that that I took away and I I learned from you know, after the fact, you know, talking to Frank and talking to the other chiefs who were excellent uh that day. So um and I I don't think Frank has come on. I get confused because I've taken Frank's class when he's talked about that that fire. And so I know a lot about it from from being in his class. I'm not sure if he's come on the scrap and talked about the lessons learned and the different things. So I'm not I get a little confused. I won't I don't think he's come on here and and like I think you've given more on the show here. He's uh he he has a great presentation, has a lot of information on it, and you know, one other thing I would say that was important at that fire, a lot of fatalities. Uh it was impactful on the uh the mental health of the firefighters, you know what I mean? You know, we're all big tough folks, you know. We don't want to, we don't need help. We we got our counseling people, our peer counselors involved early on. We had them go to the firehouses shortly thereafter, uh just to make sure everybody was doing okay. Uh, because it was it was sad. It was a sad day, you know, and uh one of those, it was one of those career fires, if you will, like for a while. Oh, absolutely. And so I think that was something that we learned that we did well, I think. We got the the counseling folks involved sooner than later. And again, we had the resources to do that. A lot of places don't. And and proactive enough to have that in place. And I know that the FDNY has a lot of resources that other places just don't, but but you but that doesn't mean that uh yeah, this the mindset to have those things in place so that they could be activated is powerful. Uh I got more coming at you, Steve, so I hope you don't mind. Go right ahead, man. If you like this one, this one's coming from Whiskey Mike again. He said, question Do you have any recommendations? And there's a lot of people picking on your your dual role because chief of department FDNY and volunteer service for for a long time. So, but they said, Do you have any recommendations for volunteer departments to build better relationships with a neighboring department that is a hundred percent career? So I know in parts of the country where it's a struggle, right? It's a struggle. There's parts of the country that have combination systems where the the career people in in that department, in the career department, in the combination department, don't get along with the volunteers. Or it's depending on the house, on the station. I think once again it goes back to trust. I think it goes back to communication. And quite frankly, if you get these folks to drill together, to train together, because at the end of the day, in most places in the country, most places, maybe not all, we have a national standard for firefighter one, right? To be a firefighter, certified firefighter. I don't care where you come from, man, you have to have the basic skills to do this job. You have to have basic skills to do this job. You have to be trained in the important things, the PPE, how to stretch a hose line, how to put up a ladder, how to do a search. It's all basic stuff. If we can if you can build some kind of a trust between the two, uh, and I think you do that through regular interaction, whether it's at drills, it could be a social thing too, maybe outside of work, outside the firehouse. Invite the career guys to come down to the barbecue or the volunteer house that's close by. Um it's it's not easy, and I know in a lot of places it's very difficult. And I know there's places in the country where the career departments won't call the volunteers, and and vice versa, right? Sure. You know, uh, but at the end of the day, man, we're all in the same, we're all supposed to be doing the same thing. Uh so it's imperative if you are working with, especially if you are responding together, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta learn to get along, you gotta make an effort, let's put it that way. But again, it comes down to leadership, honestly, right? It comes down to leadership at the company level, it comes down to leadership at the department level, you know, where the chief officers gotta be able to communicate. And maybe in some cases, there are other entities in the area, like uh, like in New York State, we have county fire coordinators, and their part of their job is to coordinate. Their job in in in some places is to make sure that people are working together and they understand each other's mission. Uh, and and you know, listen, you guys are gonna be working together at some point, so let's let's let's do some mutual aid drills. Right. Let's have some mutual aid drills together uh so that we all understand each other's roles. Um, and you know, the career guys might have better staffing uh than the volunteer folks. Uh some of the volunteer places might be hurting and uh they don't they don't have the turnout, but I think that uh it's about communication, it's about leadership, it's about um trying to get people to see each other's point of view. And you know, that's one thing I learned in my career more than anything. Um and and even in today's crazy world we live in, even the crazy world of politics, sometimes you learn more from people that you totally disagree with. If you listen to them, right, listen to what they got to say, you might learn something. And I I learned something from people that I had nothing in common with. But I said, you know what? I never thought of it that way. Sometimes that happens, and you might learn something. So if the volunteer guys say, I'm these career guys are idiots, you know, or or vice versa, listen to what they have to say. Maybe they got a good point, maybe they have something they could teach you. You know, uh, I think it's important to listen. I love it. No, I remember because uh it was career to career, but even starting out when we first started doing auto aid, we did some auto aid training and just getting together with another house, just a single house with another house from the two departments. And the first time it was very like awkward, and like it's like the dance where nobody wants to talk to each other and everybody's standing on their own sides. But if you just if you if you take the effort to make it happen, and then eventually it just becomes more and more natural, uh the proximity. Yeah, and and you don't want the first time that you meet that that no guy or gal to be at the fire, at that fire, where like, all right, we got we got a work cut out for us here, man. Like, can I trust this person? Right. You know, can we work together here? I don't even know you, you know, like right. So I think that's that's a great point that you made, like getting together ahead of time so you you know the faces at least, you know. And it won't happen on accident. You have to be intentional, you have to do it on purpose. I got a great question coming at you here, Chief, from Benno. Benno's got some good ones tonight. Benno, I'm not sure who Benno is, so I'm not sure. But Benho, good job. Chief, have you had low points in your career? Looking back, what is your advice to stay engaged, involved, and maintain a healthy attitude, especially from an officer's perspective? Sure. So one of the biggest problems in the fire service is uh, I would say, I'd call it complacency. You know, we we become complacent, like just for argument's sake, whatever department you're in, uh man, we haven't been to a fire in six months or a year or whatever, and uh, we keep going on these nonsense goals. We gotta, if you do medical work, that's all we do here is medical work, and you get complacent and you get lazy. So I found myself often, you know, where I wasn't doing a lot of work for a period of time, uh and and I got complacent. And I I might have said this at the last time I was here too, but there was a guy years ago, this young uh younger firefighter, uh, he was doing some instructing at our fire academy, and he was a hard charger, and he made a banner, and in the classroom on the top of the there was like it was like an auditorium, like a uh like stadium seating, and on the wall in front, it had a he had a banner, and it said, complacency will kill you, you know, in in this it it and it's the God's honest truth. So I found myself many times. So what I did to combat that, I tried to make sure, even as a volunteer, because in my volunteer department, we had a few fires a year. Maybe when I was younger, we did a little more than we we did later in my career, because I was chief two times in the volunteers, uh, 10 years apart. And, you know, fires were down, and we weren't really going to a lot of fires, but it was training, man. I would just try to get to get get to to to train more, you know, get more involved. I used to try to read more. I used to try to say, all right, I haven't been to a fire in a while. Maybe I could pick up a magazine or two and read about something, read about it, read an article about something, you know, fire, fire operations related. Um uh when I was a chief officer, I would try to engage more with the firefighters to kind of stay motivated. Like, you know, because as a chief, sometimes you get a little removed, you know, from the troops. And I used to say, let me engage with the firefighters more. I'm gonna get down the kitchen or go hang out at the firehouse in the volunteer house and be with the members, and it would kind of rejuvenate me. Like, you know, it would kind of like say, all right, man, I got it. You know, I love talking to these young guys because they they give me some energy, like, you know what I mean? And then the the lowest point in my career, guys and gals, the lowest point in my career, hands down, I lost a firefighter when I was a chief. I was the incident commander at a fire in 2008. Uh, one of my best fire officers, uh Lieutenant, his name was John Martins, and he died at a fire that I was the incident the initial incident commander. I was a battalion chief. Um and it was a low point of my career, man. You know, worst day of my career. Worst worst night of my career, hands down. Uh and to this day, even to this day, whatever, 2008 it was. It was January 3rd, 2008. And uh it just happened, man. You know, and and uh I thought everything was going pretty well at this job, and it and then all of a sudden it wasn't, you know. So you got to be able to pick yourself up from that. And some people can do it and some people can't. I'm one of those guys, you know, at the time, you know, I wanted to get right back on the horse. I didn't want, you know, it's take a couple of weeks off, go to counseling, blah, blah, blah. That's just not my personality. So I wanted to get right back into it. But everybody's different. Uh you know, you you learn, you learn lessons. Uh, and then as crazy as that is, a couple of years later, I was the incident commander at a fire in a volunteer department out here in my department, and we had a pretty serious house fire. And I thought I'd lost somebody. We couldn't find this kid. And, you know, we were doing a par trying to, you know, where is he, you know? And I and we I distinctly remember standing in front of that house saying it was in January too. It was January 10th. Actually, it was the day of my mother's funeral. You know, we buried my mom in the morning, and then at night we had this working fire, it was freezing cold out. And I I thought about the fire where my buddy John Martinson was killed. And two, this was two years later. And uh, I was my my heart was in my throat, you know what I mean? And uh thankfully it all worked out. You know, he had gotten out of the building and uh everything worked out fine. But uh, you know, so you will have low points in this in this business, um, just because of the nature of the work, man. It's just the way it is. But you gotta, everybody has a different way of picking themselves up. When I was feeling like I was not not on top of my game, I was a little rusty. I found being engaged with the firefighters as a chief, being engaged, you know, as a company officer, hanging out with the troops. It kind of gave me life. You know, that's how I that's how I handled it. No, great, great, great piece of advice, man. Uh coming at you from Luke Stevenson, coming at you from Australia, other side of the globe. He says, appreciating your point of using training to keep everyone sharp during periods of low operational demands. What are your thoughts about overtraining where people start disengaging or getting bored? Yeah, that's a great, that's a great point. That's why I think you got to be creative, you know, with your with your uh with your drills, be creative with your training regimen. Uh, you know, we all know the routine drills that we do, but as an example, you know, and and and some people don't like to do this, but you know, what I used to try to do to be a little creative, and I'll give you my story as a career officer, as a as a volunteer fire fire, volunteer officer. I used to be driving around and for uh, you know, I was an engine company officer for a good part of my career as a lieutenant, as a captain. Uh, we'd be driving, and I'd tell the uh the driver, the um the uh the chauffeur to pull over. And I'd say, ah, we got a fire in the fourth floor, stretch a line. And they're like, What? I said, Stretch the line, just do it. Uh and you know, they were totally not expecting that kind of a drill. Uh, but I found it to be effective, you know, to surprise the troops, come up with something different, something that they would never expect. Uh, and then the other part of that, I used to try to task the firefighters with coming up with the drills. You do the drill today. You know, you're gonna be an officer someday. Right. You do the drill, come up with something. Now, what I would argue today, wherever you are in the world, this young fella is in Australia, there are so many resources today that you could rely on on online. Like I used to tell guys, if you tell me that you can't find something to drill on, you have to be completely out of your mind. Right. Like you there's you could go on Billy Goldfett's website, there's all kinds of training stuff on there, firehouse magazine, uh, fire engineer. There's so many resources out there to to be creative, to help you be creative. Uh so yeah, you got to change it up. You gotta change it up, you gotta be creative and and and get your firefighters, engage them. Engage the young people even. They know more than you think they know sometimes. Like, right? They if you taught them well, let them let engage them, let them think. You know, give them something that they have to think about, you know. Uh uh give them a scenario and say, all right, you got to solve the problem. Let's go. It could be a simple thing. Something real simple. Uh it could be a tool. Uh, it could be uh, it doesn't have to be a fire scenario, it could be an emergency scenario. Uh hey, you know, uh once in a while I used to, you know, be moseying around the firehouse and you but in both the volunteer and fire. I'd I'd find one of the mannequins and I'd say, I take the mannequin and I stuff it underneath the vehicle or something. I'd say, all right, guys, stuff under there, get them out, you know, and figure it out. Like, I don't know, whatever you want to do, figure it out. And let them go to work, you know, let them figure it out. So be creative. That's what I would I would say. Be creative and change it up. Don't be doing the routine stuff all the time. Uh make them think. It's all about thinking. This is a business where you have to think to solve problems. Love it. I absolutely love the qu love the question, Luke, and love the answer, Chief. Trying to see, there's still questions sitting here. Um, I like uh how was it dealing with politics? And you got two sides. You got two sides of a giant FDNY and volunteer. How we're dealing with the the stakeholders, city councils, and things like that. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I was pretty fortunate in my tenure as a as a staff chief, you know, when I was in operations and in the chief of the department. In New York City, the fire commissioner most often deals with the city council most of the time, unless there's some kind of an operational issue that they want to hear from the fire chief or the chief of fire operations. So I was very lucky in that regard that I was able to navigate that fairly easily because the fire commissioner, when I was working, had been a firefighter. He was a chief of department at one time. Okay. And so he'd been around a long time too. So he kind of engaged with the city council people more than I did. Uh but but um the internal politics of the organization. So in the FDNY, you have the uniform side of the job, which is a large part of the job. Uh 11,000 firefighters and officers, 4,500 EMTs and paramedics on the uniform side, excuse me. And then there's 2,000 people on the civilian side. And the civilian side of the fire department is support, you know, logistics, uh, finance, uh, budget, all of that. And as the as the chief of department, you gotta you have to work with those folks. You know, fleet, the folks that run all the apparatus and do the purchasing and all of that stuff. So I found that sometimes to be a little difficult. But you know, you know how I got over it? I used to walk around headquarters and I'd just go knocking on people's doors, people I didn't even know. Just because I wanted to know who they were. When I had to deal with them, I didn't want it to be the first time. Right. So I used to go on the civilian side of the house and I used to get to know people. You gotta you gotta engage people, get to know them. Now, on the volunteer side, depending on the size of your fire department, everybody, a lot of people on this call probably on this uh on the web on the webcast have heard the term volytics. Volyticks? Right on sometimes, man, it could be rough, man. It could be rough. You know, I mean, uh, you could you could do the best you possibly can, and you're not gonna make everybody happy. And I told you because you got people from all different walks of life, people with all different levels of motivation. Uh and I I found being a volunteer fire chief was probably the hardest job I ever had. Oh, wow. It was hard. It was hard, man. So the volley ticks, the volytics are are more challenging than than FDNY politics. I at least I found it that way. That's fair. That's fair. You know, I I found it that way. Uh because the other part of it is that, you know, again, when you're in a volunteer fire department and you you say you have to discipline somebody that's your friend, you know, somebody that you know for 25 years and they screwed up, and you got to discipline them, right? Uh so it it it that could be tough. Yeah, and I had to do that a few times. It wasn't pleasant. And I had some people that didn't talk to me for a while, you know, after the fact. But, you know, again, people I grew up with. Right. But it's hard. It's it's a hard, it's a hard job being a volunteer leader, you know, because um to the point earlier, they're volunteering, you know, you have expectations of them, and you should. Uh and then when they don't meet up to the expectations, sometimes you got to be tough on them. So I found that a little more difficult than being a career fight chief. Career flight chief, they work for me. Right. They have to do what they're supposed to do. Like they get paid to do. No, the volunteer side without those same levers to pull. I I'm amazed that people can get stuff done sometimes. No, but no matter what you do in this business on either side of the house, it's about relationships, man. If you can build relationships with people and build a level of mutual respect, uh, you can you can do well. But you have to be willing to do that. Some people are more uh, you know, um inclined to be introverted, you know. I was a very outgoing person, and I always tried to engage people, especially the ones I didn't know. And I I said, I need to know this person. I have to understand who they are and what they do. Uh and in the volunteer service, you have to know your people, man. You have to get to know them if you want them to do what you need them to do. Like you have to engage them. Right on. Right back to what we started with, that word magical word trust. Yeah, man, you gotta do it. It's important. It's important. That is awesome. No, no, that's phenomenal. Uh, I've got one more coming at you from Luke Stevenson, one more from Australia. He says, it seems that people typically fall into one of two camps, those who pre-plan and stick to the book, and those who like to adapt and be flexible. Which one are you? And do you see value in both? I see value in both, you know, but I think when we're when we're teaching new people, I see the value of being like, you know, making sure they understand the way to do it by the book. But at the same time, you have to be able to adapt in this business. If you don't adapt, um, you're not going to succeed. And whether that's as a firefighter, a fire officer, or a chief officer, this work that we do is so dynamic and so challenging that you'll be in situations, um, both with personnel as well as on the fire ground, of course, where things are changing all the time, you got to be able to think on your feet. And that's one of the most important things I think people need to understand is that you have to be able to adapt and make split-second decisions. And the only way you get to do that is by repetition, of course. The more you do it, the better you get at it, right? Um, I think as it relates to training, um, again, there's so many resources today. There's all these online programs where you can you can build fires and do fire scenarios on a computer and you know, when when things aren't when you're not going to fires, but you you Could pull up pictures online, you could pull up videos and look at the videos, and rather than be super critical, say, What can we learn from this? Right. You know, rather, you know what I mean? So, you know, adapt to the way you train, uh, teach people to adapt the way they the way they think, the way they have to think to make critical decisions uh on the on the fire scene. Um, personnel decisions, most of the time you have more time to work through that kind of stuff, right? Um, and listen, you know, I worked with people that were buy the book, you know, especially when it came to rules and regulations kind of stuff. But I always used to tell people, you gotta remember one thing. There is gray in this world. There's black, there's white, and then there's gray. I would argue, I would argue in the fire service, we live in the gray. If you can learn to live in the gray and adapt on that little spectrum, that little continuum between black and white, that's how you're gonna be more successful by by understanding the gray, you know, and where you gotta be in that in that range. I always felt that way. Because I worked with people that were black and white, and they were tough to work with. They were tough to deal with sometimes. Sure. I used to tell a friend of mine, in fact, I I had a friend of mine that volunteers. He was one of my one of my colleagues, one of my chiefs, and he was a black and white guy. He was an awesome chief officer, awesome firefighter. I used to tell him, remember, there's gray in this world. So when I left the chief's office, he was the next guy up. And uh I remember I gave him a great t-shirt, I gave him a gray hat at the awards dinner. I said, I just want you to understand there is a colored, there is a color gray. You know what I mean? You gotta be able to live in the gray, both as a volunteer and as a career person. Right on, right on. I think in life in general, in life, you gotta understand the gray, man. I think that's no, there's a beautiful life lesson there. There really is, man. That's being true, man. Even when raising your children, like right, you gotta understand, you gotta let them, you know, let them uh let them have a little leeway, like you know, a little gray area. All right, I that was gonna be my last question, but then I got one from Jim Kuzmack who wants to know, Chief. I have to-Jim, I know James. I have to ask, how's the golf swing going? The golf swing, I just started swinging again. I recently had uh a detached retina. So I had surgery a couple of months ago, and one of the one of the worst things the doctor could have told me was I can't play golf for two months. Oh wow. So I wasn't happy about that. But sure. Thanks for asking, James. I just got out on the driving range the other day, and I was swinging the clubs a little bit, and I'm feeling pretty good. Uh my eye is almost there, almost 100%. So I appreciate the answer. I appreciate the question. Love it, love it. All right, Chief. I want a question I love to ask. I ask it every show, and it's book or books that you think firefighters should be reading. What books do you think it doesn't have to be a firefighting book? It can be, yeah, but what books do you think they should be reading? So, you know, I thought about this. Um, if if if you've never read any of Vinnie Dunn's Chief Vinny Dunn, Dembi Chief Vinny Dunn's books on collapse, those are critical for anybody in this business. Um I love everything about Vinny Dunn, like the battle space books, the collapse of the new buildings, all yes, yes. I'm telling you what, man, that guy is uh he's an icon in this business. Uh no doubt about it. You know, and I didn't know him very well. I never really worked with him. I'd met him over the years, but uh just a tremendous, tremendous mentor for all of us. Um another book that I always uh John Norman's written some really good books on tactics. John Norman wrote a book, uh Working with Giants. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. Oh, yeah. Working with Giants. That was a great book. So now I'm gonna give you something else. I'm gonna show it to you because so this year, right, is the 25th anniversary of 9-11, right? Yes, sir. So it's a sad year, right? But if anybody wants to read something beautiful, if there is anything beautiful about it, but a beautiful story, the best book I ever read about 9-11, hands down, and I'm gonna show it to you right now. It was this book here. It's called Daniel Sir, a story of September 11th. S-U-H-R Daniel Sir, a story of September 11th. Well, now you see the book, it said by Paul Conlin is the author. Okay. So I'll give you a little background. And I'm telling you, it's a quick read, it's a beautiful um and Paul Conlon is the author. I just want to say Paul Conlon, Paul Conlin, C-O-N-L-O-N. Now, Paul Paul Conlin is a retired New York City battalion chief. Okay. But as the story goes, Paul Conlin was a captain on 9-11. Paul was working that day in engine 216 in Brooklyn. He was there for the day. He was a covering captain. He was only there for the day. And 216 responded to the World Trade Center from Brooklyn, but they got there pretty quickly. Danny Sir, and I did not know Dan, but he had a tremendous reputation. He had a bunch of brothers on the job. He was the first firefighter to be killed that day. He got killed when Paul Conlin was the captain and 216 was the engine company. They were walking into the South Tower and Danny Sir got hit with a body from somebody that jumped from whatever floor. And he was killed instantly. So Paul, you know, he was very, of course, the impact it had on him, Joey Latin, was unbelievable, right? He wrote this book. And he tells the story, and he does it so beautifully and uh compassionately and respectfully, and you know, talks about Danny Sir's family, and he was married, he had children. Um, if you ever this is the best book I ever read about 9-11. There's a lot of books out there. Yeah, different people wrote books. This book, I think a lot of people don't even realize it. And I always tell people if you want to read a book about 9-11, that's the book. Okay. It was uh it was beautifully written. Um, very, very, very good book. So those are some of my my thoughts as far as books are concerned. Uh you know, um, you know, what what what I mean? I think I told you, I gave you some John Vinny Dunn, you know, he's the man. Right on. He's the man, he's the man. Beautiful, beautiful. Uh, and especially I haven't read this the Daniel Sur. I've I've not heard of it. So that's gonna say it too. You better read Frank Lee's book. Okay. We wrote two books now 30 Fires You Must Know and Commercial Leadership. That's right. And and which goes better. They're both excellent. Yes, absolutely. Okay. Beautiful, beautiful. Okay, Chief. We have a thing we're doing on the show. It is you've done this before. Well, you kind of did it before because you you had to share with the other people, so we cut it down. But this is the first time you've done the five questions for firefighters by yourself, and we're unveiling the brand new version 6.0 of the five questions for firefighters. The vigilantes helped me come up with the new ones. Cool. So, this you are the first person to answer this version. Now, there's there's some favorites in here, but there's some brand new ones coming at you. So there are no right answers to these questions, just your opinion, and the points are arbitrary, passed out with the help of the audience. So, Chief Tom Richardson, are you ready for the five questions for firefighters? Yes, sir. Here we go. Number one, you have a time machine, but it can only be used for one thing. You can go back in time and give a younger Tom Richardson a piece of advice. What advice would you give young Tom Richardson? I would have given the advice to Tom Richardson to have served in the military. That's the one piece of advice I would have given. Is there a go ahead, go ahead. Sorry. The one thing I regretted that I did not do, you know. That is one of my that is I I I share that in in wondering. I I don't know if regrets the right word, but the one thing I wish I'd always done. So I guess that that's the that's the definition. I mean is there a branch that you would have you would have liked to have done? I probably would have been a Marine. My dad was a Marine. I was gonna say I knew the dad. Hardcore Marine, and I worked with a lot of Marines. Uh most likely would have been a Marine. All right. Beautiful, beautiful answer. Max points for the first time someone's answered that question. So, number two, you've had this question before, so we'll see what the answer is this time. It's Job Town. It's time. You're in route and responding. You got to think of the scene from Backdraft where he slaps that cassette tape into that cassette deck. What song are you playing in route? So I don't know. I think it's a pretty cool song. The song by Queen, We Are the Champions. All right. We are the champions. And if you listen to the lyrics, it's pretty cool. Like, you know, it's uh it's a it's apropos. I love yeah, Queen is one of my all-time favorite bands. Brian May, I think, is a wildly underrated guitarist. Yeah. I absolutely love uh We Are the Champions. Great, great. I Sam, has it been on before? Okay, it has been it has been on there before. Okay, so but that's awesome, man. I love the song. Max points, one and two, max points. So here we go. Oh, my Mike. Oh, did he really? No kidding. Wow, awesome. You're in good company, is what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh, number three, it's a cold weekend at the station. The rig checks are done, training is done, PT is done, the food is cooking. But what I'm saying is it's a lazy day, but you're not being lazy. Yep. You're clicking through the channels on the TV. What's that movie? That no matter how many times you've seen it before, you're gonna finish that movie. What's that movie for you, Chief? Top Gun. Phenomenal answer. Love that movie, man. Oh, yes. Love that. So last time it was The Godfather, correct? Yeah, it was. Yeah, so yeah, that like you got two of my favorite movies. Yeah, the top gun was good, though. Me and you we're best friends, see? Yeah, man. Godfather and Top Gun. Top Gun. Max points, easy max points. Okay, number four. First time this question's been asked, but what is the one habit that you believe separates average firefighters from exceptional firefighters? I talked about it a little bit earlier. Early on. Uh humility. Humility. I love the answer. And that honestly, man, I can't think of a better answer. And I'm wondering how long this question will survive because I'm wondering if that isn't the answer I'm gonna get over and over and over. You know what I'm saying? Humility. You've answered it the first time, so we'll see with the with the passage of time. But it's a great, and and it's been a theme that you've had throughout this entire show as we talked about different things. So very consistent. Final one, and that's that's four for four max points, by the way. If you're keeping track at home, number five, heavy fire and searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES? You know what, man? I will always pick the nozzle. Always. I will always pick the nozzle. You did say you were mainly an engine company boss for the majority. So I wondered if it would, yeah. So the two best positions in the fire service is the nozzle firefighter and your engine officer. The two best positions, man. I love it, Chief. And that officially makes it five for five max points, and that officially puts 357, 357 scraps in the books. Chief, I can't say thank you enough for spending your evening with us, fielding the questions from the audience, talking about the things you're passionate about. If somebody wants to reach out to you, get more information, get a hold of you for some reason, is there a way to do so? Sure, you can reach me via email uh anytime, and I can I'll give you my email address. It's R-I-C-H A-R-T, as in Thomas J as in John 1959 at gmail.com. There you go. There you go. Reach out if you want to get more information from me. So unbelievable. Man, chief, I've really enjoyed the conversation. So I'm gonna do my housekeeping. Yes, sir. Go to patreon.com slash the vigilantes. If you're not a vigilante, I always ask why not. It is one of the it's where all the cool kids hang out. The discord is unbelievable. If you're a part of it, that there's stuff in it every day. Discussions. In fact, one of the things that the vigilantes helped me decide this week was the brand new five questions for firefighters. They're constantly helping out with the scrap, they're constantly helping out with each other. It's its own animal, and you should be a part of it. So uh I always want to tell people go become a vigilante. Uh patreon.com slash the vigilantes. Next week on the scrap. It's been a long time in planning. Mr. Jason Worthy coming on. And then two weeks from today, it will be time to talk some grit with Brandon Chapman. So back to back, uh, it's gonna be exciting. You want to make sure and be there live with your questions. 2026 rolls on in style, and that's enough jabbering for me. We're gonna have the after party. That's one of the best parts about being a vigilante, is you get to come to the after party. Chief Tom Richardson is invited. Uh, it's not, yeah, we'll see. And and it's supposed to be a roast of the guest. It never is, but that's the running joke. Uh, so we'll see how the roast goes. Audience, you make the scrap magical each and every week. It would not exist without you tuning in and asking your beautiful questions. So thank you so much for making the scrap what it is. I love you all. Chief, thank you for spending your evening with us, man. It means the world to me. My pleasure, man. It was great. Thank you for having me. Everybody out there, remember must don't scrap. I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning. This job is not safe. So stay smart out there. Thanks for listening to the weekly scrap. Please subscribe and please share. We'll see you at the next episode.