SPEAKER_00 0:00

Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance. It is weekly scrap number 360. My guest tonight is Steve Prism. He Pris Borowski, I worked so hard on that. Prison Borowski. He began his fire service career in 1991 and retired from the Santa Clara County, California Fire Department as a deputy chief. He is actively involved in the fire service, speaking, writing, coaching, mentoring, people who are aspiring to get hired or get promoted. He is a regular speaker across the country, having presented sessions in 40 states, moving closer to reaching his goal of all 50 states. He has authored five career development books, all focused around leadership and personal development. And I am excited about all that we are going to get to talk about and the questions that you will have this evening. Welcome, my brother, Steve Prisborowski.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Thank you, my go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Welcome. Thank you, my brother Corley. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. This is a long time coming, but I'm glad we have the opportunity tonight. So looking forward to this chat. I'm excited. And I got the hardest part out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

The hardest part out of the way. So common common spelling and pronunciation. So exactly just common. Uh anything I mean. I mean, there's so much in what you've accomplished, what you've written, what you've contributed to the fire service. It's hard to condense it down to like a 20-second sound bite. So I always like to ask, is there anything you'd like to add? Well, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

And that's one of the things I feel uncomfortable about when I'm in the front of a class and you've got someone that's got to read a bio. I mean, my bio usually is just here's the high points on the screen behind me, and let's get going. And I feel so bad when someone has to read something. So my hat's off to you, brother. But um, I think those are the key points. I'm just happy to still be involved in the fire service. I've always had a love for the fire service since I was a little kid, and even to this day. So I mean, you know, to be still involved, giving back, doing stuff like this, teaching classes, writing books, writing articles, coaching, mentoring people. It's just it's it's a blessing. So honored to be here, brother.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Right on, and it's gonna be a fun discussion. So, okay, with that being said, audience, get your questions ready. Sam is here, he is watching the YouTube chat, he is sending the questions to me. Get them in. You want to throw them at Steve so he can answer them. And with all that being said, we are gonna get to the sponsors. Everything in the fire service gets tested training, instincts, equipment. That's why Snaptight designs and builds its fire hose to perform no matter the challenge. Durability, packability, kink resistance. Every single line is tested before it leaves the factory. So you know you can count on it. Snaptight, it's American made firefighter trusted. Visit Snaptighthose.com to learn more or find a distributor near you. Firestationfurniture.com, they provide a complete line of quality furniture for your firehouse. They are firefighter owned and operated, they understand the strain firefighters put on the furniture, and they offer furniture that's built to last. Visit www.fire stationfurniture.com for more information. And then one of my favorite people, Dane Yaw. If you want to book a class on officer development, if you want to book a class on leadership and building culture and situational awareness, he covers so much. He has an amazing repertoire of classes that he offers. So I like to promote him. Check him out, yawonfire.com. Go and book a class for your department, your conference today. And the final thing I want to talk about is not a sponsor at all, it's something that I'm super excited and passionate about. And that is the Vigilante Codex Project. And this is a project that we just unveiled yesterday, and it is it is involving all the vigilantes. And I think it's going to be an amazing project that brings amazing value to the fire service. And I'm excited about it. And I'm here to actually get the vigilantes pumped up and excited about it. And that's why I'm talking about it here. So if you're not a vigilante, why not? First of all, second of all, vigilante codex project, it's going to be amazing. I can't wait to unveil it to the world. So, with all of that being said, Steve, let's get to the scrap. One of the things that is a passion for you is I would say it's safe to say leadership. Leadership and I want, I don't know where what I that's such a broad term. Oh, yeah. Such a broad term. So I want to talk about my one of my favorite things about leadership, which is building and maintaining relationships. That's probably the place that I love to hang my hat on. I think that is the foundation of leadership. But I I want to hear your thoughts on building and maintaining relationships. So let's just start off there.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Well, that's it's funny you mentioned that because yeah, it's a broad topic and it can be really diced and sliced every different direction. But the key point about leadership, obviously, is building and maintaining relationships. And especially in today's world. I mean, I've been around for about 35 years in the fire service, obviously older than that. And when I was first getting on the job, terms like servant leadership, terms like like um, I want to say transparency, empathy, they weren't as maybe in the forefront back then as they are today. I mean, the term autocratic leadership was still may pretty much alive and well. You know, I was that probationary firefighter that was trained by the senior firefighters, you know, jump, how high? How high, sir. Yeah, not yeah, not why? Why gotta jump? What's the purpose of that? And I'm not saying that's wrong or right, it's just times change. And I think that's the one thing today that thankfully was instilled in me at a young age of the importance of building and maintaining um just quality relationships. I mean, you don't have to be everyone's best buddy exchanging holiday cards and singing kumbaya every moment, but you know what? You gotta love your people. And when I say your people, it's whether it's your your closest family, obviously, your family, your friends, those that you're fortunate to work and serve alongside, and obviously the public is there as too well, too, that when we're on the job serving them too. But the maintaining and building relationships, I think, has never been more critical, I think, than it is today. And as we know through experience, it's it's tough to build relationships. I mean, it takes time to build trust, earn trust, um, earn respect, credibility. I mean, just because you're a now company officer doesn't mean you're guaranteed all this, you know, he's a leader now, he gets the respect. No, he's you got to work at it even harder. So it takes a long time, as we know, to build that trust, build that credibility, but it's also easy to wipe it away at a moment's notice based on something you said, didn't say, did um, did do, or didn't do. And I think that's one of the biggest things that trying to reinforce in the future firefighters that I teach. I also teach at Chabot College in Hayward. And it's the future the intro to fire science class, that first semester before they go into the academy. And I try to instill that in them that it's a small world and you've got to start building and maintaining those relationships because there's still many of those people that I'm still actively involved with from not just when I got hired with Santa Clara County Fire, but even before that, in the four and a half years I was testing to become a firefighter, going to college, taking tests. And I think that's that key, that lifelong journey, but also passion to just, you know, it isn't any of us by themselves. I mean, we all know a team is not one person, a team requires us to have a group of people of different strengths and weaknesses.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

So no, it's yes, and I one of the things I love that you said is it's not all holding hands and singing who by ya and and and getting all like it because what because when firefighters hear, oh, build relationships and soft skills and empathy, oh here we go, you know. Uh yeah, it it's but it's it's so so so important. Even even those hard, crusty, you know, the the typical alpha, whatever you want to say, you you realize that the ones that you look up to the most are the ones that actually have those natural skills, despite that scruff at exterior.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Well, and I think in today's world, you mentioned the type A alpha personality is that again, fire service, law enforcement, public safety, these are the people that tend to flock toward our industry, which is great. Yeah, and the key today, I think, is really so important to show that you give a shit about people. Um, I mean, not just give a shit about the community, obviously. That's the expectation, you know, the the old concept, we're here for them. We are here for them, but we're also here for them inside, meaning those within the department, the members. And I think that's that challenging part is, and I'm not trying to sound all whatever lovey dovey, but the point is we're not going to be best buddies with everyone per se, but we got to show that at least we give a shit, and that's in a sincere, respectful manner. You know, we can agree to disagree, we may not be best buddies, but you know what? Whether you're my boss or my coworker or someone that I work for and you know, supervise, we have to have that good relationship because that's how stuff gets done. I mean, just no different than a professional sports team or a collegiate sports team. You know, there's good people that have strengths, people that have weaknesses, but we're all trying to be making the puzzle pieces fit together. And that's but you got to get to know people and know where where their weaknesses are, too.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah, that's beautiful, man. I absolutely love it. And you touched on it building uh uh what it means being here for them. Your view on that. I and you already touched on a little bit, but I wanted to hear your view on being here for them.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

I think that's it. One thing that gets lost in translation, and um, I mean, when we all take the oath of office, we raise our hands. You know, we know we're here to be civil servants, to serve the public, whether you're volunteer, career, it doesn't matter. We know that we're here to risk our lives to save lives and all that other stuff that we're um we have ingrained in our heads. But I think this is gonna sound really maybe odd to some, but like I mentioned, when I got on the job, safety wasn't as big as it is today. Safety, health, and wellness. I think we've come a long way in a good way to help make us more aware of things, to do our jobs better, maybe more safe, safe. There's but unfortunately, I think some people have taken it almost too far. And I know some eyes roll when I say this in class is like we've almost had the pendulum swing too far in the sense that, well, hell, the building's on fire. We can't go inside that building because we may get cancer or may die if the building collapses. Even though we're better trained than we've ever been, I think we're better probably aware of things, even though the hazardous situations that we face are even worse than ever. Obviously, we know today, but we're better equipped, we're better prepared. But meaning we're here for them and the fact that no, we still got a job to do, we may not come home tomorrow. And again, that's you know, no officer, no firefighter ever wants to lose anybody on their watch. I get that, but the point is that it's almost the this this that safety pendulum need, I think, needs a swing back in the middle for some. I mean, I mean, I'm not saying that's every department because there's some good, damn good aggressive departments. But when I throw the word aggressive out there, sometimes people take that, oh my god, it's bad, you know, that's a bad word. It's like, no, it's not. You can do it safely and effectively, and yeah, you're gonna take chances and make risks and sometimes do things unorthodox, but if it's for the right reasons, meaning, how would you want your loved ones, your family members to be taken care of by your local engine company, your local ladder company when they are in their time of need, if you're not there or if you're there too. So no, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

That litmus test is is that has to be if you're not using that litmus test, then what are you using is the litmus test for for your level of what you're willing, you know, when they say risk a lot to save a lot. What is that, what does that mean, you know?

SPEAKER_01 11:31

So well, and it and it's interesting you say that because at least in my time on the job, like I said, we've I think we've come a long way in a good way, but trying to throttle that back, I was part of a promotional process um for one of the local departments who'll go obviously nameless. And one of the questions they asked their captain candidates, which we asked our captain candidates too, just like our battalion chief candidates during a promotional assessment center of, you know, what's your knowledge of two in, two out? Um, you know, obviously set up your instant command structure and do all the stuff that we'd expect a captain or battalion chief to do. Right. And I remember we gave a scenario during a promotional examination. And during a promotional examination, you're never going to get a fully involved building to manage because that's too easy. You're probably gonna get something very small to start with, maybe 25% involvement, where the expectation is get your butt in that burning building and get a search going, get water on that fire, and build your incident from there to make sure that you got nobody inside. And I remember this one candidate, there's me and two other raiders from each from different departments. This one candidate obviously was so focused on safety, so focused on two in, two out, which again, it's um, you know, they're focusing on the policies that their department has in place, which is important to do. Make sure you obviously know your policies, but they were so focused, it was almost the point of we got to wait for our second and crew to get here so we can have two and two out established. And I'm thinking to myself, okay. And then they start going into their knowledge of the two and two out law, at least in California. I know every state has different, you know, different laws and expectations and different department policies. But the whole point was is this wannabe captain is basically was going to wait outside to have that second crew get there, which was delayed by a couple minutes, versus get you and your crew inside to be able to get a search going, get water on that fire at least. I mean, I know you can only do so much with a three-person engine company, obviously, I get that. But when there's two of you, one person at the pump panel, two of you can go in. But that's when it dawned on me that we almost ingrain so much in our captains, or excuse me, the wannabe captains, we drill into them two in, two out in a lot of departments. I can't speak for everywhere. Sure, sure. But here's the challenge we we ingrain in them standardized operating procedures, policies, black and white stuff, which isn't not a bad thing. If you want to stay out of trouble, follow the black and white stuff. The problem is now when you become a company officer, we expect you to be a little bit more gray because yeah, you live in the gray now.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

You're the black and white is the easy part.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Yeah, for the for the company officers in the room, you've got the toughest job in the department because you're there, there's the face of the department, you're there making the go-no-go decisions. And yeah, you you have to follow policy, but there may be times you say, you know what, I gotta do the right thing for the right reasons, and it means do this. And I remember one captain that I was mentoring afterward that didn't do well in this um test. We we ended up having a conversation way after the fact. He goes, But my policy says this, my policy says that. I'm going to you're sending a first alarm assignment to report with structure fire. And he goes, Well, OSHA says I gotta have two in two out. I go, Yeah, but there's also an exception that basically allows for emergency rescue activities, at least the Paul, the one that we're aware of. And I go, You're responding to a first alarm. That's isn't there emergency rescue activities until proven otherwise? I mean, not to sound uh you know overly aggressive or risk averse, for but it's like until we get inside that building, we got to make that call. But he goes, Well, he goes, think about this back to when we were firefighters going to EMT class or paramedic school. What was drilled into our heads? I'm like to myself, I always have trouble. He goes, We would fail our EMT or our paramedic exam if we didn't follow scene safety or BSI, you know, BSI, scene safe, BSI, scene safe, yeah. And then he goes, now I'm in a captain position or testing for captain position, and now you expect me to basically almost flip it around because safety is almost out the window to a certain degree. I go, good point. And that's when it dawned on me that I think that's one of the one of the toughest positions in the fire service, if not the toughest, the company officer, because you got to operate in the gray world. Because I've had captains say, Well, I don't want to get in trouble for violating two in, two out. I'm like, okay, on my 27 years in Santa Clara County fire, I never recall anyone ever getting in trouble for violating two in, two out. I mean, you violate two in, two out, stay it on the radio, do your exception report later on through the chain of command, as the policy said. And and I think that's that challenging part. So, I mean, I obviously I've talked about a lot of different things that tie in, but I think that challenge of going from firefighter to company officer, I think is is the challenging because now you're expected to operate in the gray area, knowing that sometimes you may have to go out on a limb when it comes to safety-wise to do the right things for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

No, absolutely. And and I think what ties into it, and you alluded to this already in some of the what you said is is every department is different, and the culture in every department is different. And it a lot of it comes down to how much the person above you has your back on those judgment calls. Like, are they looking to hang you out because well, you didn't cross your I and dot your T according to policy 316, paragraph subsection C, part two. And you know, when you work for that kind of boss, it it does make it tough to operate in the gray. Whereas you have someone who who says, Hey, make the decision, I got your back. And then then that allows you to make those decisions.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Well, and I think that and that is the challenging um anomaly, or not anomaly, but uh wild card, because like when I was a brand new battalion chief and I was assigned my shift, I'm I was going around all the firehouses. I already knew everybody, I was getting to really get to know everybody before we started working together. And I remember asking the crews, you know, what do you expect of me? You know, and I remember one crew, one company officer, great company officer, but just very shy. And he's like, Chief, he goes, We've worked together before. And I go, Yeah, he goes, Don't disrespect us. You know, what do you expect of me? Don't disrespect us and don't yell at us. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, I'm not a yeller. And if I am yelling, it's the fire ground, and maybe you're just not hearing or seeing something, and you just need to get out of there just to maybe save you and your crew, or you know, maybe you're missing something. But I go, I don't yell. And I'm thinking, and he goes, Don't disrespect us. I go, I would never do that on purpose. I mean, and but then it dawned on me the reason he's saying those things is because of the my predecessor.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Who read work who, yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

That because I work for the guy too, and he mentioned that. I go, Well, I'm not chief so-and-so. He goes, I know you're not. And I go, but I also realized this captain was so gun shy, it was almost like the dog that got kicked too many times. Yes, and and it's like, okay, I it took me a while. I'm gonna have to earn his trust and respect, which is not a big deal, and it took a while. But like I told him, I go, I want you making decisions, you know, because he was that mother may I on everything. I mean, if you're a company officer, you're empowered. And I go, 99.9% of the time, it's gonna be the right decision. And the point, whatever it is, not, we'll talk about it. It's probably not gonna be life threatening. But again, I also know there's those leaders in the fire service. And granted, this was 20 years ago. I know even in 2026, there's still those people that you're gun shy working under and running scared because they are, like you mentioned, that percentage that will jam you up because you whatever violated this policy, even if it was for the right reasons with good justification. So, and that's the unfortunate part. Obviously, for you, well, excuse me, for anybody in the fire service, especially officers, you got to know your boss and hopefully know them very well. So you hopefully don't have those issues. But if you do have that type of boss, you know how to work around them and obviously keep yourself out of trouble, right? But also not sell your soul to the devil in the process because you got to do the right thing for the right reasons, even if it gets you in trouble sometimes. No, it's beautiful, man.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Oh, I love already the direction of everything we're talking about. And we got questions coming already from the audience. Are you ready for your first ones? This is Kyle Piverall. He is one of the uh what's the word you would say? He's one of the regulars that shows up for the scrap each and every week with top style top shelf questions. But he wants to know on topic, first of all, he says, when it comes to working with everyone and maintaining relationships, what are some tactics to keep standards high without disrespecting anyone?

SPEAKER_01 19:55

You know that and and that's the challenging part about leadership is that obviously everybody's different. I mean, I'm not a parent. After 26 and a half years of marriage, we made the decision not to have kids. There's times I wish I was a parent. Maybe I would have been a better supervisor over the leap over the years. But there's the challenge of, you know, you got to treat people fairly, but sometimes it's treating people differently. But you also got the standard right here. And to some people, like I had a chief one time that goes, Steve, you know what the difference between a doctor that got 70% on the boards versus a doctor that got 100% on the boards? I go, uh 30% difference. He's like, they're both doctors. Because what that I had come to him with a challenge that I had with someone that was maybe not really where they should have been. And he goes, Well, you go, and I'm thinking to myself, but that just isn't right. I mean, I get that. I mean, we all want the doctor that's got 100% scores. Not to say they're good because they're book smart, but I think the challenge there, tactic-wise, um, number one is getting to know people, um, get to know their strengths or weaknesses. And how do you do that? Well, obviously by talking to them. I mean, that kitchen table is powerful. Time you're spent in the apparatus when you're going to calls, coming back from calls, when you're bullshitting around whatever it is in the kitchen and apparatus floor in front of the rig, in front of the firehouse, training with people. Um, but also not letting your guard down when someone isn't maybe meeting that standard that they should be at. Maybe sometimes the first thing that I've learned over the years is good peer pressure. I mean, this is why getting to know your folks very well, if it's a peer-to-peer basis, hopefully you've got a good enough relationship with somebody. Like if you're a firefighter and it's another firefighter to be able to maybe just have that good adult conversation of, hey, anything going on, anything I can help you with? You know, is there something, you know, you seem a little bit off, not judging you or anything else. Now, if it's obviously someone that works underneath you, like you're a company officer, maybe it's one of your firefighters. One of the things I learned, it took me a while is take advantage of your other crew members because sometimes things are solved best at the lowest level on a peer to peer basis versus the Boss coming at you, and I mean, oh, I mean it sounds bad to say the boss, but you know, I think tactic-wise is getting to know people, um, letting them know you care, but also not tolerating you know mediocrity and making sure that sometimes maybe the team themselves can help you with that. Maybe asking the other team members, what can we do here? And maybe it's you, maybe there's a different approach. And I think that's one thing I learned from my wife. There's times where when before we got married and we were meeting with the pastor, and he's like, You guys are gonna be fine, he goes, You're opposites in pretty much everything, even though you're both in the fire service. But the one thing that's you're gonna have communication challenges, and we joke about that almost to the day. But whenever she's trying to convey a message to me, sometimes she just will say, Okay, it's not you, it's me. Even if she's wrong or right, she'll be able to at least be able to say, you know what, I'm obviously not conveying my message correctly to you. She goes, I don't want to micromanage you, I don't want to, you know, she she'd rather keep it as a high-level type of thing and expect me to figure it out. But there's times like, okay, talk to me like I'm a five-year-old, explain it as simple as possible because I'm not getting it. And I think that's that point too, sometimes just being able to, you know, be able to have those relationships with people where you can sometimes look yourself that maybe you're part of the problem or but also part of the solution, too.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

No, it's powerful. No, I love that. I love that. And the communication styles is another huge, huge uh just how people hear versus how they how we talk to them. And like you, you you articulated that very well. Uh, next one's coming from Tanner Jones. He says, as leader, but not the chief, right? How do you impact a low or negative culture in an evolving fire department, especially when things are happening that many don't agree with? So a lot to work a lot to unpack there, but that's what kind of questions we get sometimes. No, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Well, the first comment I'll make, and uh that was a great question because you know, as leader, but not the chief, this is one of the things when I do classes and sessions that I try to start out with um, is that everybody is a leader, from the newest rookie firefighter, obviously all the way up to the fire chief and people filling every level in the organizational chart. Now, obviously, as a firefighter engineer, you don't have formal leadership responsibilities within your job description, but there's still that informal leadership expectation. And I think that's that challenging part is that I mean, I was fortunate to work for a really great department over the years that still has a great culture, not just at the firehouse level, but at the leadership level. It was always a concern every time we that whenever the fire chief retired, it was almost like, okay, who's gonna be the next fire chief? And it was usually always from well, it's always been from within. And but the one thing is is that there's never been that us versus them. But I understand in today's world, there's a lot of different challenges in all size and types of departments where you know you guys on whatever station one on the B shift can have the awesome, the best crew and culture, but then maybe your leadership at the command level or the executive staff level is just whatever out in La La Land, and you know, maybe doesn't support the fire department, doesn't support the troops, and that's the challenging part is um and let me tie this back one way. There was a number of years ago, one of the departments um in the area was having budgetary problems where they were looking at maybe laying off people, and that just talk about a morale killers when you're looking at maybe layoffs, when you're looking at rig closures, firehouse brownouts, blackouts, whatever. And I remember this one company officer, you know, who I really didn't know that well, again, from another department. Um, and he just came up to me and he was just like, I go, Hey, how things going over there? How you guys holding up? He's like, Oh man, it just sucks around this place. You know, the city council doesn't have our back, the the union doesn't seem to have our back, the fire chief doesn't have our back. It's like I'm on an island here at my firehouse with my, you know, the whatever the guys he works with. And that was the challenging part that it made me realize that you know what, because he was starting to go off on certain things. There's almost getting very negative to the point where he's like almost taking it out on the people that call nine or one. Well, when you start taking out your frustrations on the on the reason we're here, the you know, the people that call for our service or stop by the firehouse, the taxpayers, the voters that'll hopefully support us, that's when we know we've lost it. But anyway, that's when it dawned on me that we can't control what goes on above our heads, but what we can control is within our real estate. Meaning, if I'm the company officer on ladder one on A shift today, I can at least control the attitude, the culture, the the um, the uh the tone, but but I can't, you know, well, engine three is doing this shit over here. Okay, I got no control over engine three. I mean, I'd like to have the same level of respect, or well, the chief's doing this, or the union's doing that.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

And I think that's that challenge as a company officer. I was guilty of this when I was a new company officer, is I tried to be too hard to be one of the guys and not recognize when I need to put my leadership hat on. I mean, as a company officer, most of the time, you don't have to be a supervisor if everyone's doing their job, everyone should know their job, do their job well, and every now and then do some course corrections to keep things in track. But this is where one of those you're that company officer, you can either think it's gonna be a miserable day or it's gonna be an awesome day. I mean, I use this example that one company officer from another department, he's like, Well, you know, the city sucks, everything else. I'm like, okay, well, you're got you come in in the morning, your guys are bitching at the kitchen table, as they should be, because of what's going on, the lack of support, the lack of love they're getting. I get it. No one wants to come to work like that. As the company officer, you got two choices. You can jump on the bandwagon, take it to the next level, or you can say, guys, we got about 30 minutes. Get this out of your system. I haven't drank the Kool-Aid, but you know what? We got shit to do. When that bell goes off, we got to put our game faces on. And we can't take it out on people. Let's go out there, let's go training, let's try to keep things positive. Now, you may get accused, obviously, drinking the Kool-Aid, being one of them, but the whole point is, is you can either dwell in the miserableness or you can try to rise it above. So I know that doesn't necessarily answer the question or solve the problems because a lot of times if you're a company officer or even a firefighter with no leadership formal responsibilities, you can't control your fire chief. I mean, there's no way. Or let's say it's the whole command team, right? Assistant, assistants, deputies, maybe it's the battalion chiefs all the way up, because that's just the way they are, right or wrong. You can't control that. You can try your best. You know, I had a friend of mine on his email signature line one time, he hated his fire chief. His email signature line, besides his name, title, and address and department was progression through attrition. And I go, what was the progression through attrition for? That was his leadership slogan. He goes, Because I can't wait for basically my command staff to retire because of how toxic they were. But that's the thing, is you can't control that. And maybe you'll never control it. So the point is, what you can't control is what's within your real estate, and that's your firehouse, your first due area, your apparatus. And it can be miserable because you may never get any solutions. You may, I mean, but again, at least you can go to work knowing you did the right thing for the right reasons and you took care of the people that are around you on your rig, and obviously the customers that we're here for.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Phenomenal. Phenomenal question, Tanner. Yeah, and even better answer, Steve. Absolutely crushing it. Steve Smith, everyone. Uh Kyle Piv coming at you once more, Piveral. He wants to know, in terms of informal leadership from the back seat, which we've been talking about, yeah. How can we help our officers while still trying to influence change?

SPEAKER_01 29:49

You know, and this is one of those things where as I talk to firefighters around the country, it it a lot of departments I think don't extend that olive branch. Now, obviously, as a firefighter and engineer, you got to know your role. You're a task-level person. That's nothing personal, nothing disrespectful. Right, right. You do task-level stuff, but then you approach that officer level, you're more at that tactical level, then obviously chief level, you're strategic level, just the way the system works. And I think in some places it's almost beaten down that you're just a firefighter, you're just a driver, and just shut up and two ears, one mouth for a reason. And and that's one of the things I learned that I started when we had our recruit classes when I was the training chief, is getting to getting those recruits in there once they got out of the academy and letting them know that you're part of the team. Yeah, you're part of the three or four-person engineer truck company, yeah, you don't have a lot of experience, yeah, you got a probationary period here, but you are an informal leader. Now, don't get me wrong, you don't have all the answers. Um, you've got a long way to learn, but you are part of this team here. And the old term of when I got on the job, hey, talk to the senior firefighter because they'll help guide you. And then we had some great senior firefighters that help mentor me. There's not a lot of senior firefighters out there because I got a three-person engine company. Well, at least at Santa Clara County fire, you got the captain, then two firefighter engineers, um, because they firefighters rotate driving. I mean, it's not uncommon to have the senior of the two firefighters be five years on the job just because the way you know the station bids work or the assignments work. So there's not a lot of experience sometimes. But I think as that informal leader, how you can help your officer is number one, just doing your job. When people ask me about, hey, Steve, when you talk about leaders intent or also known as expectations, what are your expectations? You know, there's I've seen expectations that are a page long, two pages long. I'm I go, if it was up to me, it'd be one expectation. Do your job, comma, right. Four letter, four words, do your job, comma, right. Because if you're doing your job right, that means you're following policies, you're taking care of customers, you're not being an asshole, you're just being a good teammate, and you're just a pleasant person to be around. But we also know that that's not as it's easier said than done. Absolutely. So I think so. I think doing your job right, that's 99% of it, probably, but also being not, and I I tie everything into that because it means not waiting to be told to do something, all those old school things. Because I I hate it to say when people go, and this is common, we've all probably heard this, these damn kids today. Yeah. And and I love it when people bring that up in class, and it's usually people that are in their 40s, their 50s, their 60s, and it's people half their age or maybe their grandkids' age, and I go, Well, be careful saying that because if you're saying that, guess what they're saying about you? It's they're saying the same thing of hey, old man, or yeah, you time for you to retire, you're retired in place. That's that goes back to building relationships. Pointing out generational differences is not building and maintaining relationships, it's you know, leading above you, leading below you when it comes to generational times. So I think by doing your job right, um, being that brother, being that sister to help people out. And if again, it goes back to knowing people. If you get to know people so well of when to give people space, but also when to sometimes be that, hey, brother, whether it's that off-duty text or phone call or just check-in, welfare check, or even that on duty, just hey, anything going on? And having that first name basis, whether it's their family members, um, getting to know them, and I think just being there for that person, and especially back to the question for your officer, because there was times when I was or one of our chief positions was administrative deputy chief, HR chief. That was said no, no firefighter ever wanted to ever win a job. Yeah. You know, and it's like when the chief told me, Hey, we're moving you from the training chief to the admin chief for get some experience, like, holy shit, thanks, chief. Right. But but a lot of our problems I realized, and again, we had a great department with very few problems, but sometimes when things rise that high to the deputy chief level, a lot of times it was stuff that could have been handled in-house at the firehouse level. And there was times where I called the union president. I mean, we the union president at the time we joked, we we talked more than sometimes we talked with our spouses, and it was always a great relationship, but it was sometimes like, hey, I got this rose to my level. I don't want to open up an investigation. I ain't got time for that shit. It's not, can you maybe have a conversation maybe at that level to keep things handled the lowest level? And and that was because again, and that worked a lot of times too, is you know, us taking care of each other at the firehouse level. Now, don't get me wrong, some things may need to rise that level. Absolutely, and I think that's one of the things I talk about. Um, where it's that struggling part of a company officer sometimes, what what do I follow up the chain of command versus what do I handle in-house? And that sometimes is obvious when you phone a friend, and there's sometimes where sometimes company officers want to keep it in-house and want to obviously, which I get because we teach people handle things lowest level, but then we fail to forget to tell them that, but also know when to keep your boss in loop, because sometimes your boss is there to let you know that that's a big deal. We need to, you know, deal with that in whatever fashion. So I think help it doing your part by just being a good teammate, a good friend, a good coworker, a good subordinate, and just being a good part of the team. And sometimes there's another phrase that I learned over the years from uh retired deputy chief, um, Kevin, retired battalion chief Kevin Conant. He taught through one of their Jim Voyer was one of their, I think, deputy chiefs, but anyway, the term prompt for success, meaning we're all gonna make mistakes, myself included. But sometimes it's nice to be able to have someone maybe at a lower rank even call us out in a tactful, respectful way. Meaning you're driving down the freeway. Let's say you're doing Oklahoma, what, 75 miles an hour in some spots, some freeways. Sure. Let's say, let's say you're doing 105 in the 75. Okay. And your significant other, your beloved bride, your best friend, your best egos, hey dear, you probably want to slow down a little bit. That was a prompt for success, whether you believe it or not. And that's and that to me is a good leader. If you can have that relationship with your crews, not just at the same level, meaning your peers, but your subordinates and the people, your bosses, where you can be able to have that open door policy to say boss or hey brother or hey, whatever. I mean, on a one-on-one basis, in a respectful type way of, hey, dude, you you can do that, but you probably want to maybe think, have you thought about this? Have you considered this? And then maybe they look at you and go, you know what? Good point. Thanks for the prompt for success for life of a better term. But again, there's times where you know they may say, you know what, I've thought about it, thank you very much, but I'm still gonna go this direction. Hey, no, cool. That's not telling you what to do. But if you can have that, those people in your circle at all levels, number one, you got to be approachable, but you also got to be willing to accept that prompt for success from others to help save you from yourself sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Right, because absolutely, and sometimes to my reaction to my wife's prompt for success is is not effective. I'll put it that that's probably the best way to say it.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Oh, yeah, yeah, and how many and and I joke about this. How many times have relationship arguments or struggles started all because one person quit nagging me? No, they're not nagging you, they're actually trying to help you, but you'd be yours, you'd be you.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

And one of the things I like to like uh Taladega Nights, Ricky Bobby, Ricky Bobby. I don't know if you know the movie or not, but he says, With all due respect, with all due respect, he says, and then he goes off and says something outlandish and and just completely then he says, But I and the and the guy gets mad at him, of course. He says, 'But I said with all due respect,' he goes, 'That doesn't mean you can say anything you want.' But the funny part about it is, and I love this point, is if it is if it is with respect, and this is true, if it is with respect, not just a not just uh uh saying it at the hey, I'm saying this with respect, and then but if you actually say anything with respect, you can say anything. Like now it may not be received, but you can, yes, yeah, and and so I it's a good point to remember if you can stay respectful and do it in the proper time in the proper place, you can get a message across if it's coming from a place of respect.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Well, and that's why it comes back to building and maintaining relationships, but also making yourself approachable. And once because think about this, this is a hell of a gift. If if you have somebody, whether it's same level above you or below you, but especially below you, because you become a company officer. I mean, yeah, your crew usually has no problem going to you, but uh, for those of you that are gold badges, they're still very in. I mean, I remember as a new firefighter, it was intimidating, you know, gold badges can be very intimidating, and some captains could be too, they were not approachable, and it's like, but then it ties back to in most recruit academies today. I bet you we're all teaching our recruits when we bring them on the job, see something, say something, do something. I mean, that's very common. And then what happens when you get out to the firehouse a lot of times? You got two ears, one mouth for a reason, catching up. Yeah, shut up, go to work, yeah. Forget all the stuff they taught you in the academy. This is how we do it here, and then and it's like, but I'm supposed to be, and that's why it that's why I think to me, if you can be that person that says, when you get to when you first get to know your people, obviously, if you don't get if you already know them, the respect is there, but when you're getting to know people like your new crew, it's that hey, you know what, I'm gonna make mistakes, I'm gonna do stupid stuff. Please let me know if I'm missing something. Because again, I'm trying to think strategically or at least tactically, but I may be so far in the weeds that I'm missing the missile that's coming out of nowhere here because your head's you're thinking, you know, you're thinking like this. Oh, yeah. And you think about look at a lot of accident investigations, um, after action reports, not just in the fire service or tragedies that have happened worldwide, and they start interviewing people. Did you see something bad was gonna happen, or did you think something bad was gonna happen? And there's usually two answers. No, I didn't. Well, then maybe you should have paid attention better. But that's but a lot, but other times it's like, well, yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

But I didn't want to say anything, I didn't want to step on toes, I didn't, I didn't know if it was my place, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

What if I and what if I was wrong? Right, God forbid, and then or well, I did last time I said something to my captain, he told me to shut the F up, right? So I'm like, you know what? Fine, you be you, and then you got a culture problem, obviously, a toxic problem. And we and we all know and worked for those types of officers of all ranks. So I think if you have to meet, that's a gift when someone can come up to you, and this could be your kid, this could be your best friend, it could be someone you work with that actually has the stones to be able to say, you know what, you've probably thought about this, but I'm not sure if you actually maybe realize that this is maybe an unintended consequence or this was going on. Even if you know you're right and maybe they don't have all the facts, because sometimes, especially if you're a chief, you can't share all the details or they're not already known because they're confidential. The last thing you want to do is say, Hey, just shut up. What do you think? You don't tell me how to do my job, because then of course it's gonna be like versus hey, you know what? Thank you for that heads up. I appreciate that. I didn't even think about that. Thank you. I'll let me take that in, or thank you. We thought about that, but I think it is safe to go on that roof because I've already assessed that roof and I think it's good to go in, but thanks for the heads up because of whatever. And then that way the person at least knows that you know what, hey, I'm valued, he gives a crap about me.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

No, and and the truth bringers are are if you identify a truthbringer, whether they're above you or below you, yeah. Yeah, that's the only way you can see your blind spots because they're blind spots for a reason. You can't see a blind spot no matter how hard you try. Uh, and that's where those if you you have to encourage those truth bringers. And if you shut them down, you you don't just shut down that truth bringer that like the firehouse is notorious for your reputation. Will grow as no, no, go tell him that he'll chew, you know. Yeah, you will shoot, you will shut down anything that will identify your blind spots.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

And then we wonder why we have a toxic work right culture, and it's all because of sometimes that one leader that thinks they maybe have to and have to have all the answers, and that's what I was guilty of as a new company officer. I'm five years on the job, I'm a new comp captain. I got two firefighters that are you know, 50 years combined experience, and I naively thought that I had to have all the answers, and it took me a while to realize that, and there and of course, they had a lot of the answers. At one point, I asked the question of okay, you knew that you're an electrician. Why didn't you tell me you could help solve that problem? And of course, his answer, well, you didn't ask. Yeah, well, shit. Okay, that's I mean, and you could argue it both ways of well, yeah, you should have stepped up. Sure, then I can also I can see both sides of going, you know what? I own that because I should have gotten to know him better, not just on the job, but also off the job. And granted, it was a new person I hadn't really worked with before, so we just knew each other superfluous.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

So, but again, the ownership aspect is I need to own to make it okay where he feels comfortable and and willing, willing to share that. You know, I want him to want to wash the dishes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so no, I that that uh I absolutely love and again, there's a theme running here on this relationship thing that seems to be recurring uh tied to everything. More questions coming at you from the audience. I don't want to, yeah. Okay. Uh Daniel Valens Wayless says, We always hear about going from buddy to boss. When you're building those relationships, what are your thoughts for maintaining or balancing that respect, building that relationship when some feel you are a buddy more than their supervisor?

SPEAKER_01 43:31

You know, and I I think there's something else I was guilty of as a new company officer is that transition, which is probably the toughest transition going from buddy to boss, or some say crew member to supervisor. Sure. It's a tough one because one moment you're obviously doing goofy stuff as a firefighter engineer. You know, as I talk about in class, is like, how many firefighters really give a shit about risk safety risk management? And I don't expect any firefighter to raise their hand. You're taught it, you're trained. It you have policies, but now as a company officer, obviously, you know that you have a more responsibility in your head now of you know all those things that I mentioned. But again, as that buddy, I think I tried too hard to be the buddy, and I think I lost some credibility and respect. I think that's that fine line of getting to know your folks. That I mean, again, back to doing your job and doing it right. If you're doing your job right, yeah, I know you're gonna probably be testing the buttons, especially of a new company officer that just made the transition, whether you know them or didn't know them, or didn't work with them much before. But again, as a company officer, trying not to jump to conclusions, trying to get to know people, I think is critical, but also recognizing that there's times where you have to put your supervisor hat on, your boss hat on. You know, I was listening listening to one of Jocko uh Welling's recent um podcasts, and that's one of the things I talk about when I talk about leadership. To me, courage under fire leadership is a number of different things, but also helping save people from themselves sometimes. Right. And um not that they want to do things negatively or with a negative outcome, nobody ever wants to get in trouble or cause damage. And sometimes, unfortunately, bad things happen even when you're trying to do the right thing or you're just not paying attention. But even Jocko made the comment where, because he was talking about sort of a similar subject, that he goes, When you he goes, that's where the boss basically needs to recognize, because that ties into company officer, when things are going basically something that's illegal, something that's unethical, or just something that's just you know not meeting the standard. You know, that's when you got to step in as a boss to be able to correct those behaviors or at least attempt to correct those behaviors. Um, because you never want to be the highest ranking person in the room when things go south, because obviously all fingers point at you because you should have done something about it, or recognize it, or you can't solve every problem, at least attempting to solve the problem. So I think that's one of those things of I mean, at the kitchen table, obviously, you can be that buddy, you know, when you're joking around having fun, but then there's a time and a place where when the conversation goes south for whatever reason, you got to be able to put that hat on. And, you know, again, you hope your crew wouldn't put you in that position where you have to do your job. That when a company officer or chief officer has to hold someone accountable for not meeting expectations, whether it's not unethical, illegal, maybe unsafe, not meeting expectations, that person has put them in that position to do their job. And I think that's what sometimes the few times that I had to have a boss hold me accountable, I felt bad because I had to actually have my boss whether it's write me up or have that stern conversation. Sometimes that works, but it doesn't work for everybody because not everybody has that, I guess, um not ownership, but uh ability to say, I'm I'm sorry, boss, I'm making you do your job. And again, sometimes that solves the problem right there. But I think just because here's the one thing one minute conversations go south, the kitchen table, and you're you know, you got two choices. You can either, well, you got three or four choices, you can either join in the conversation, which doesn't help if it's going south, you can say nothing, which is not helping, and now you're condoning behavior, or you can leave the room, which doesn't solve the problem, or you can actually try to at least change the conversation. Say guys, let's change the conversation. How about them? Whatever. How about them Yankees or whatever else? Well, then you run the risk of obviously now being the boss because you're not having the fun that well, you used to have the fun that you used to say, you know, whatever stupid stuff when you were a firefighter, you changed right. Well, hold on. You forgot where you came from, you drank the Kool-Aid. So there's the goal. One of the goals when you are that brand new firefighter, hopefully, when you become a company officer, if that's your choice, not everyone's should promoter is meant to promote, but if you are gonna be that company officer, we're gonna remember everything you did as a firefighter. So hopefully, and even worse. So hopefully, you're not you are pretty consistent to the point where you're not that stupid, goofy person, then all of a sudden, well, you got to do this because I'm boss now. But hopefully, folks don't put you in that position, but if they do realize, hey, I'm trying to help you help yourself and obviously be better.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

No, I love it, I love I love everything, and uh, there's so much to unpack there. We could probably do an hour just on that that topic easily, and just that one question. So, great question. And one thing I I do like to always point out on the buddy to boss conversation is the person, and this is just my take on it, but it is you have to realize uh was it Daniel? I think it was Daniel. Daniel is that the person in the lower position determines what hat you have to wear. It's not like if they put you in a position where you need to be a supervisor, there's only two choices there. You you either be the supervisor or you don't do your job. You know, if you say, Hey, I'm gonna be your friend now, then and they put you in that position, then you're abdicating your authority.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

And go ahead. And no, and sorry to jump in there. And as I tell people, you'll find out your true friends, because your true friends won't put you in the position to do your job. But if they do put you in there, whether it's on purpose or accidental, whatever else, your true friends will be the first to say, you know what, I I own this stuff, I'm sorry, do what you gotta do. And you know what, we can still be buddies, and let's go. How's our fishing? But again, you'll also find out they may not be your true friends, right? And that's sad because, but again, they're in it for themselves. But that's the key, I think, is recognizing that if you don't do anything, again, now you just permitted the behavior, you condone the behavior, and they'll use that against you at some point, and then now we have inconsistent leadership, and that's a big problem with one of the biggest complaints I hear from unions, unions, or you know, labor groups across the country is inconsistent, you know, enforcement of policies or treatment of people, and you gotta be consistent. That's not fair, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Firefighters love those three wars. That's not fair. Uh, so absolutely, absolutely. Um, I like uh I like this one. This one's coming from Daniel. Daniel in the audience actually says, What is the one thing you wish you knew before you took the gold badge?

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Oh, the gold badge. I liked it. You know, we talked about going from buddy to boss. I always joke, going to buddy to boss is firefighter to or engineer to company officer, going from company officer to battalion chief, for example, or shift commander, that's like going from boss, because you are the boss as a company officer, boss to the dark side. Yeah. And I think the biggest challenge that thankfully, again, you're already a company officer, so you already are a supervisor when you usually go into battalion chief, shift commander. So you already recognize the supervisor responsibilities, the leadership responsibilities, the management responsibilities. But I think the one thing that really hit home was more so than captain lieutenant positions was how stuck in the middle you are. I mean, I one of the things when I coach and mentor people that want to go through the promotional process, I always try to um encourage them don't just prepare for the test, prepare for the position. Oh, yeah, that's true. Because you can prepare for the test, but then what if they change the test? But prepare for any day in the life of whatever you want to be. I mean, prepare for that day in the life, and there should be no curveballs. But again, you can't prepare for everything. But the rec the part of being stuck in the middle, because as a company officer, you're there to take care of your crew, your troops. I mean, yeah, you got a battalion chief and you got the gold badges above you. That's where I sometimes we get the us and the them, which sucks in some departments, thankfully, not at County Fire. Um, but when you are that gold badge, okay, you are that one step closer to the executive team. And in a small department that's only got a couple firehouses, you may be literally part of that executive team. So it may just be one fire chief, three shift battalion chiefs, and maybe a 40-hour whatever admin deputy training or whatever else. So you are part of the command team, large department, maybe there's multiple layers, but I think that and when you're stuck in the middle, it's tough because you got to make sure you're part of the management team, but also part of the firehouse team. Right, you can't lose your credibility, but you also both ways. Yeah, so I think that's where the true stuck in the middle really comes into play of because it you don't want to be that one of the things I learned very quickly was I remember how one of our one of our battalion chiefs, when he'd come by the firehouse, of course, we're already grilling him for all the latest rumors and all the good stuff and everything else. And and I remember one of the guys one time is like, Hey, chief, so you just got you know, you just came from the puzzle palace, we called head admin headquarters. Right. What are the good juice for the puzzle palace? And of course, and he's being very guarded, and he's like, you know, he's going over some things. Hey, what about this program? And I'm just yeah, I can't remember what it was, but like, what's the status of maybe starting the Swiftwater Rescue Program, which we didn't have, but we really, and of course, the and I there was something talk of what of that program that he was referencing, like I said, brain fording on the exact program, but but the chief basically is like, well, I don't know anything about that at all, and it was almost like a very quick, I don't know anything about that at all. And I'm thinking to myself, Well, that doesn't make sense because what we're being what he's being asked about would fall under his purview because it was one of each of our battalion chiefs had management responsibilities. Like one chief was responsible for PPE, another was responsible for station uniforms, another was responsible for tools and equipment. And I'm thinking to myself, and and the fire chief had talked about this too, but and then of course, maybe like a day or two later, it came out that this was starting. And I remember asking the chief afterwards, like, didn't you had knowledge of I got I'm not and I we had a good relationship. I wasn't jamming him up, but I was I was basically the captain at the time. I go, Did you know that was going? He goes, Yeah, but you know, I you know, you go around the firehouse, Steve, when you become a battalion chief, you know, they're gonna grill you, and you know, you say one thing, and then next thing you know, it's gospel because the chief said it, right? So you got to be very careful about how you say things. I'm thinking to myself, yeah, but it's almost like you're lying. So, what I learned from another chief who did it, I think, in a better format was, well, yes, we've been having conversations about that topic at various levels. Um, it's not a done deal yet, it's not dead in the water, but no, we are having conversations. We're also having conversations about many projects and programs, everything else. But yeah, it's something we're thinking about right now. It's like, well, hey, I'd love to get so it's almost or sometimes just saying, you know what, it's like a personnel issue. So can you tell us what's going on with you know Ralph, who's looks like he's gonna get fired? Well, it's a personnel issue, it's confidential. If it was you, like I don't think you'd want the information so we know about it, but we can't share the information. That and I think that's that balancing point. Is I'm not lying to you. I do have information, I just can't share it with you. Because again, if you breach that confidence and breach the confidentiality of those above you, then you've obviously run the risk there of a trustworthy executive team member uh in hopes of trying to be the buddy and not the boss.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Right on. No, it's a great again, phenomenal questions from the audience, like always. We got one coming at you from down under Luke Stevenson himself. Holy moly. Luke on, I've been working on this Australian accent, so you gotta put it. If you can't understand what I say, it's because my terrible accent, okay? But it goes like this.

unknown 55:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

Do you think volunteer services where leadership roles are elected by the members are more at risk of that buddy versus boss confusion? Any tactics, especially where promotions are not permanent?

SPEAKER_01 55:37

Well, and that could be a worldwide question because I know, especially in the United States, a lot of the volume, I mean, there's still a lot of volunteer fire departments and companies around the country. I get it, you know, more so than career members. And I know that elected positions are alive and well. And that was the I mean, a hard part for me to really fathom and understand. But I know, you know, you go back to areas like the East Coast, and it's all elected positions, and a lot of times those are based on popularity versus competency competency. Right. He's he's the he's in the cool kid club, and that's the challenging part because again, it has nothing to do with qualifications, it's just maybe so-and-so threw the best parties or is then or the nicest guy in the world. So, okay, you know, you're nice guys, so I'd rather have you up there, but doesn't solve problems. So I think when you have those people, you know, first of all, you can't change the system. I mean, if that's the system in place, unless there's a way to go from elected to appointed, which again, appointed has problems too when you just appoint people, because then there's always do they get picked because they're the chief's buddy, was it favorites? There's no perfect system. But I joked about earlier the progression through attrition. If someone's maybe in elected position for one, I mean I'll use the example. We had a fire chief one time that just for whatever reason hated leather helmets. How can you later how can you hate a leather helmet? I mean, we finally got leather helmets, thankfully, about 10 years ago. But I remember at the time, it was two thousand uh a number of years ago, Chief retired Chief was getting ready to retire. He was about a year out, but he announced his retirement. I remember we had a group of guys that were just wanted leather helmets, and there was a bunch of us that were going to throw our name in the hat for Fire Chief. And I was getting my and it was all internal process. There's about five of us, and I'm getting ready for the high-level questions like what's your leadership style, your vision, you know, your plan for the department. I wasn't aware of the task level stuff that I should have been focusing on. But when I was going around the stations when the chief retired was getting ready to retire, he's like, So, Steve, he goes, So, how are we gonna get these leather helmets? I go, well, first of all, until the chief, I mean, they go, We've tried time and time again, we've had a committee together, they did a great job. We've we've had multiple pitches to the fire chief. How do we change the fire chief's mind? I go, you're not right for whatever reason, he just doesn't like him. I mean, I don't, you know, I don't say good, bad, or indifferent because to me, leather's traditional, but anyway, so there is a bad, I guess. But anyway, that was his preference, that's his choice. Sure. But I go, Really, you're probably not gonna change his mind. So until the next whoever fire chief is, you're probably not gonna be able to do anything. So put a fork in it, keep your idea there, keep motivation, and then when the new person comes in, so fast forward, and now we're getting ready for fire chief interviews. And I remember I'm like I said, I'm getting ready for my vision, my leadership. People are gonna ask me where I want to take the department. When I go around the firehouses, just as a I'm a battalion chief at the time going around. So, chief, what's your thoughts on leather helmets? That was the pretty much the old the common, dominant, and I'm thinking to myself, well, I like leather helmets, and I go, I'm for leather helmets, I love them. I mean, I we can't waste money per se, but if it's you know, and if we if if if we can get leather helmets that meet the safety standards that are expected by the board of supervisors, I don't have a problem with it. You know, we don't have unlimited money, but okay, good, good. You know, uh, it's almost like okay, I got your vote of confidence because you like leather helmets there. But but tying that back, I think, is just um annoying when sometimes sometimes you just have back to elect the the question. There is sometimes you're not gonna do anything with the current structure or the current individuals, but at least going back to Buddy DeBoss, doing the best you can within your company, your level, as frustrating as the politics may be.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

I mean, again, you can bitch about that station, that shift, that crew. But you know what? How about focusing just on what you can do? I mean, you're not gonna save the world and change everything as one person, one firehouse, one crew, but at least you can go to sleep at night knowing you did the right thing for the right reasons, and until you get into a leadership position yourself, which sometimes doesn't always solve the problem because then maybe it's even tougher when you're at the top to change things for the better.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

No, absolutely no, and that's and that and that is that sphere of control and and controlling what you control, controlling the controllables, all of that plays uh such such a such a valuable mindset to survive in that kind of environment where you're very frustrated. So no, I love it, man. Phenomenal questions from everybody. And the one the ones we didn't get to, we will try to hit them up in the after party. It's one of the best things about the after party. But right now, I'm gonna move to one of my favorite questions, which is book or books that you think firefighters should be reading. Doesn't have to be firefighter books, but if they are, that's you know, that's phenomenal. But what books should firefighters be reading, according to Steve Prism or Rowski.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Well, there and there's a lot of books, but you know, as I struggled with this thinking about that, because again, I got a lot of books like a lot of us do that I think are valuable. Um, the one I think that really hits the the nail in the head, um, The Training Officer by my good buddy Dave McGlynn, chief out of uh Pennsylvania area, good guy. Why this hits home for me is for a number of reasons. Um just like when I talked about earlier, every rank is a leader, some informal, some formal. But also, take the word officer out of it. Every one of us in the fire service, whether you're the fire chief all the way down to a rookie probationary firefighter, you're a training officer or training instructor. Yes. And especially as an officer, when you become an officer, you're gonna be the you know, the training officer of your crew, battalion chief, training officer of your crews. Yeah, you got a formal person probably at admin working Monday through Friday, like I did for a while, but you got to know the strengths and weaknesses of what your crew need. So why this book is important to me, I think, is because I mean there's good books out there that relate to training, but there wasn't whether you're a training officer, meaning the 40-hour person responsible for the whole department, or just a battalion chief shift commander responsible for your crews, or just your crew. You got one or two or three people that you supervise on an engine or ladder company, you are the training officer. You can't do everything, you got to know when to delegate, you gotta know your subject matter experts, you got to be able to build people. But I think this provides just a good overview of all the responsibilities. And why I say responsibilities is when I was when I was a brand new captain, I made the comment about our our training division is understaffed, 350 members. We had like three people in the training division. It was like a deputy chief of training, a captain, and a firefighter for 300 plus people. Obviously, and I remember a battalion chief goes, Steve, if you're relying on the training division staff at admin to get your crew trained, you're missing out on the boat. You're the training officer of your crew, they're gonna pump out what's mandatory by law, obviously, the high-level stuff, but you're the one, the boots in the ground, the gut you get your crew out there, knowing your mandates, knowing how to work with different people, how to get them different topics. I think that's I think one of my current books. I think that's important because again, regardless of your rank, you've got to be able to know. I mean, I think we all know how to train, so to speak, but also more importantly, learning that everybody learns differently. That's one of the big issues that a lot of people well that this is how I learned it. Well, okay, 90% of the people learn it that way, but you know what? There's still 10% that maybe you got to have a different tactic, sure, and they're still a good person.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

So I think that's my take for right now. Beautiful, beautiful book, too. And I don't think it's been brought up before that I uh that I may think of. So Dave McGlynn again, uh training officer, man. Absolutely great, great book. Which takes us to one of my favorite things we do here. It's called The Five Questions for Firefighters. And there are no right answers to these questions, they're just your just your opinions. The points are arbitrary, they're passed out by me with the help of the audience. So, Steve, Prisborowski, are you ready for five questions for firefighters? Here we go. Number one, bring it. You have a time machine, but it can only be used for one thing. You can go back in time and give yourself one piece of advice. What would that piece of advice be for young Steve?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

As I talked about, I touched on earlier, going from buddy to boss was my probably biggest struggle in the fire service. And I think what I tie down to, I had no problem with the expectations because I was already prepared with okay, here's my expectations, like I talked about earlier, do your job right. It was basically five expectations. Take care of the customers that we serve, take care of your crew members and other department members, have fun, you know, and you know, just make things better. Well, where I failed on, I think a lot of the times was the the second part of expectations. It's great to give out your expectations, but they're worthless if you don't hold people accountable. And I think as one of our retired battalions, she said, you you know, he goes, You can give all the expectations of the world, but if you're not holding people accountable, you can basically wipe your butt with your expectations because just like a parent, you're screaming and yelling at the kid to stop doing what they're doing. And yeah, it's usually false, you know, false uh promises. Um if you don't do that, I'm gonna take you know, if you don't stop doing this, I'm gonna take away your phone. And then of course I'm gonna count to three. And then it's four, it's five, three and a half, four. And I think, and again, and I think that's where I could have done a better job. Nobody got killed or injured my wife on my watch, knock on wood. Um, there was no bad outcomes that I was aware of on the fire ground at the firehouse. But there's times where I look back and I go, you know what? I think I settled for mediocrity sometimes, and I settled for basically substandard behavior because I didn't want to rock the boat. Um, when I should have said, you know what, put my big boy pants on, and you know what, you guys can hate me for this, but you know what? No, we are gonna train a little bit extra right now because that performance that we just saw was substandard. So you know what? We're gonna go train right now. And I think that's where I got sucked into peer pressure of oh, come on, it's it's Sunday, it's it's whatever. It's raining outside, it's a day that ends in Y. It's you know, hot, cold. The firefighter, yeah, the firefighter excuses. I love that. I trained I I my my needle was pegged sometimes more toward the buddy when I should have said, you know what? I gotta be the boss in the situation. So lesson learned because it it came back to bite me. And at a later point, of like, of course, that one person years later basically made a comment of well, you didn't say anything back then. Right, right. You know what? You're right, and I'm wrong. So you know what? I'm saying it now. I can't take back then, but yeah, people don't forget.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

They don't. Firefighters are like elephants, man. They there's no doubt about it. Uh, and I love I I want to paraphrase Steve here and say, without accountability, your expectations don't amount to squat. I'm not sure the exact phrasing, but that yeah, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

But that's and I think that that's a problem in today's society because if you look at a lot of people, a lot of people, especially in today's world, not just the fire service, but the world don't like conflict. Absolutely, conflict is a bad work.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

Yes, conflict aversion.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

And I hate conflict too to a certain degree, and I get it. But there's that point where now that you're that company officer, again, 99% of your job should be fine because everyone's doing their job and doing it well, but for that one percent of time, and someone puts you in a position to do your job, that's when you got to realize this is why we have a supervisorial position. Because if we didn't have supervisors, well, we wouldn't need supervisors if everyone do their job.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:19

And again, most people do it. So beautiful. It's beautiful. Uh number two, max points on number one, by the way. We've talked about it for like 10 minutes. That's that's phenomenal. Max points, max points. Number two, it's job town. It is time, you're in route and responding. Think of the scene from Backdraft where he slaps that cassette into that cassette deck. Uh, what song are you playing while in route?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:42

Well, it's funny you mentioned that because I would have to work. For those that know me, I have a love of all types of music. I love live music, go to about 100 concerts a year around the country when I can tie in teaching and I can tie in concerts or ball games, seeing friends, it's great. But I've always had a love of hard rock and heavy metal. I mean, I just went to Garth Brooks with my wife a couple days ago in Milwaukee, and then two days later saw Death Angel and Violence, a couple heavy metal thrash fans from the Bay Area here, like two days later, and people joke, you saw Garth Brooks one day, and then last year was Barry Manilow one day with my wife, and she likes that other type of rock. Sure. But almost any Metallica song, but Metallica Seek and Destroy would be that one that's in the you know, we're going to a job town. We got maybe five minutes to haul ass, obviously, get there, but get us in that zone. I think would be Metallica, Seek and Destroy. But I could probably name a bunch of other signs. Yeah, dude, I love old school Metallica, some of the original seek and destroy. Born and raised in the Bay Area. I know people give California a hard time bad rap, but I got to grow up in that area where I mean I graduated high school in '84. Yeah, I'm that old, but that's when Metallica's breaking out, and all these other bands in the Bay Area that I got to grow up on still enjoy today. And some people go, You don't look like one of those type of people. It's like, what the hell is one of those type people look like? You know, don't judge the book by cover.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

I love it. Max points for seek and destroy. That is the first time Seek and Destroy has been put on the list. Uh, I I can I can yes, okay. I was I felt pretty confident saying that. Usually I check with Sam, but I felt pretty confident. Uh, phenomenal max points for seek and destroy, old school Metallica, especially. I love it, I absolutely love it. Uh, and there is a Spotify playlist with all of these answers, it's out there and it grows every week. It grows every week, and it's an it is an eclectic and diverse collection of music. Uh number three is cold weekend at the station. The rig checks are done, the training is done, PT is done, food is simmering in the crock pot. And what I'm saying is it's a lazy day, but you're not being lazy. You're clicking through the channels in the day room, and you hit that movie. And it doesn't matter what point of the movie it is, you're gonna finish that movie. What is that movie for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:51

You know, it's funny because especially with different generations in the fire service, you could have obviously people obviously in their late teens, all the way up in their 60s, you know, and again, with my age group and everything else, I don't. I mean, again, I'm more of an old school guy from the 80s movies because again, I don't think that I mean, again, I'm not trying to judge differently just what I grew up with, but I have trouble with this one because uh I think it was 1977 when Animal House came out, right? Um, that was my my dad took me to that movie, and I think at the time I was probably gosh seventh or eighth grade, maybe at the time. Sure, and I remember that's one of those movies, Animal House or Die Hard. I'm struggling with those because Bruce Willis and Die Hard always loved the cop ones. John McLean, man, absolutely. And it's funny because I I remember those days fondleys where we had, you know, there was no sports on the whatever it was, maybe non-sports season or whatever else, and we had our shit done, and it was like, okay, it's Sunday or whatever, all the stuff's done, and let's chill. And you know, and we're all different, but Animal House would probably die hard. I'd struggle with both of those because I still when they come on, even today, they're 40 plus years old or 50 years old.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:56

No, I know it's the crazy part. As we get older, the fire service gets younger. Even this question is starting to lose its relevance because they don't really watch movies as much as they use, you know, movies aren't as as a thing anymore. You know, streaming services have have almost destroyed uh just that this algae. So, what was the answer?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:14

You I heard two, but I don't know if there was if if there was Animal House, probably because I saw it earlier, meaning it was 77 versus Die Hard. I think it was probably 82, 83, but I'd say Animal House because I just saw it pop up on a plane screen a couple weeks ago. I can't remember where I was going, but I was just fumbling through the things there, and it's just like here's Animal House. Obviously, they bleeped out everything, so it took all the fun out of it, but it's just one of those things like I can't get enough of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

And I love it because it's tied back to dad taking their seventh, eighth grade, all the nostalgia. Max points, three for three from Steve Smith so far. Number four, what is the one habit that you believe separates an average firefighter from an exceptional firefighter?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

I was well. Part of me was gonna say training, but I think at a higher, but I'm thinking task level with that because it training is important, don't get me wrong. But I think at a higher level it's gotta be just passion. Because passion, if you've got the passion, you're gonna passion for the job, passion for the department, passion for the community, passion for people. Training's gonna training, mentoring, leadership's gonna fall underneath that. So I think passion, because if you've got the passion, it means you're trainable, you want to learn, you want to get. I mean, I hear today from so many people around the country, and maybe it's a age thing where someone can't connect with the younger generation because I hear those things. Well, these kids today are the younger generations, they just don't have the love of the job like we used to have. Well, maybe they don't because maybe they weren't exposed to it. Maybe they didn't have a father, brother, sister, whoever in the fire service, maybe they didn't have friends, maybe the crew that they're assigned to didn't expose them to that because there's some crews around this around the country that are on their phones all day and maybe just doing their own thing in their cubes at the firehouse storm, or and they only come together. Well, shit, they may not even come together at lunch or dinner time. Maybe maybe they just come together when the bell goes off. Or but I think that's that thing. I think passion overall, because if you've got that passion, to me, it overrides everything. You know, it's like when I get people that ask me all the time, it's like, could you narrow down like oral interview, you know, helping people get promoted, you know, what's the best thing you can do to score well in an oral interview? Okay, without even giving answers, because I don't believe in giving answers because the answers got to come from your heart. But to me, passion and enthusiasm are probably two of the most important things when someone's in an interview, but also someone's obviously on the job. So if you've got that, those are leadership traits. If you've got the passion and enthusiasm, hell, I'll follow you to hell and back as long as you got my back and you know we get along and I trust you and respect you. And hopefully that leads to all you wanting to do the right things for the right reason. So I think passion's got to be it for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

Great, great answer, man. And it's a first principle because, like you said, it covers so much, it covers all the like training, like you said, it covers training. Uh, beautiful answer. Four for four, max points, which takes us to the final question, the fifth question. The question that never changes heavy fire, searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on a VES?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:24

Oh, but nozzle any day. Well, I spent majority of my time on an engine company. I had time at engine one, truck one, but again, I rarely filled the truck because that was the senior captain, so I get to ride in the truck. But we're not a fire. I mean, our department 19 firehouses, about 20 some thousand calls a year. We did not get a lot of first, we did not get a lot of structure fires. Unfortunately, the Silicon Valley here does not burn that much. So don't get me wrong, truck work is fun stuff too, and it was great to do that when I did it. But I think nozzle any day has got to be it because those are just I don't know. To me, nothing beats being on that nozzle, first do make an entry, and again, doing your thing. That's what I signed up for. Wet stuff and the red stuff. Nothing against the people in the truck companies, more power to them, but I love the answer to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:14

Five for five max points from Steve Pris Burr Rowski trying so hard to get it right, but well, I'll just keep working on it. I'll just keep working on it, and that officially puts 360 scraps in the books. Congratulations, brother, for being here for number 360. Uh, thank you for sharing your evening with well. You're in California or you're two hours before you guys are. Yeah, so not quite early evening with us, but I appreciate it so much. Uh, if someone wants to get a hold of you, if someone wants to reach out, what if they want more information on booking a class or bringing or just talking to you, what's the best way to do so?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:47

Easiest thing is my website, code three fire training. So code three, like C O D E three, and then fire training, all one word, code three fire training.com or Google my last name. But my website, code threefire train.com, has my cell phone, my email address. I got a free stuff link on there with a lot of free stuff, presentations, documents, other resources. And I've helped a lot of people around the country get promoted or hired, and they've never even met me just because of a lot of things I put up there. That was just good stuff to use to study stuff. So code3fire train.com. Feel free to reach out anytime. More than happy to be a resource to anybody out there. Killer.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

I love it, man. I love it. And the fact that you said free stuff, like firefighters love free stuff, but yeah, that dude, great, great, phenomenal. And that takes us to the housekeeping. Uh, my housekeeping. Go to patreon.com/slash the vigilantes. Man, the discord is where it's at. I can't explain to you uh how much it's like all the good parts of social media without all the BS. It is amazing, and it's all it's the like-minded souls. It's beautiful. If you're not a part, go become a part. It's awesome. The network is unreal. And like I like I teased earlier, the vigilante codex, the codex product, the project is coming. It's gonna change the fire surface. I really believe this. So all that being said, uh, enough jabbering for me. Let's see who's coming up next week on the scrap. It is Dana Larkin. We're gonna be talking about all things fools, and we're also gonna know, we're gonna find out why he's why he's the dive bar aficionado. We're gonna figure that part out. Following up with that, it is time to talk to Tommy Gunn himself, Steven Runyon coming back on the scrap, and that is gonna be an awesome discussion. So it's Steve tonight, Dana next week, Steve the next week. It's it's just an amazing, amazing June heading into July and the 250th anniversary of this country. All right, enough jabbery for me. Let's get to the after party. Steve has agreed to come and be roasted. Steve Frisborowski, thank you once again for spending your evening with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:48

Chief Moore, thank you very much for the time, brother. I appreciate the opportunity. I appreciate all the questions that were asked and great time tonight. Thank you, brother.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

I had a lot of fun with the discussion and and and audience, he said it. Great questions from you. You do it each and every week. You show up live, you ask great questions of the guest, you set the scrap up for success. You truly are what makes the scrap magical, and I can never say thank you enough for showing up each week and making it happen. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning. This job will never be safe. So stay smart out there.