That's who we are. Our job is to go, solve their problem, get back on our silver horse, and drive back before they even know who was there. You know, who are those guys?
SPEAKER_02Firehouse Vigilance presents the weekly scrap, a podcast dedicated to the never-ending fight against complacency.
SPEAKER_03It is weekly scrap number 363. My guest tonight is Jerry Wells. He was a firefighter with the Louisville Fire Department for over 35 years. Prior to his retirement in 2020, he served at all levels from firefighter all the way up to interim assistant chief. He is a second generation firefighter and as well as a volunteer in his community. He loves fire. He loves fire science. He loves instruction. He has attended or presented at FDIC for over 10 years and continues to speak at fire service leadership conferences. He has written articles and continues to write and he advocates for the fire service and those who serve. It is my absolute pleasure to finally have him on the show. My brother Jerry Wells. Welcome to episode number 363 of The Scrap.
SPEAKER_01Hello, Corley. Good to be here, buddy. Very humbled, very, very humble.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, my friend. I always like to ask, is there anything I missed in the intro? Anything you like to add? Because I never know. There's always so much. And if there's anything important, please throw it in.
SPEAKER_01Well, you I mean, I'm I'm basic. I'm a very basic person. And I'll give you the the unofficial version goes something like this. Give me some tools, give me a fire rig to ride, you know, a district to protect, and a couple of really good firefighters, men or women, and let me go do my job. You know, and say and I say that because I won't, you'll never see me get in a big giant argument about smooth bore versus fog and this ladder and this, this, and this. Give me some stuff and let me go figure it out and go to work. You know, that's what I want to do. And I and I sit in the background of those conversations because I love hearing the guys that are passionate about one of those or the other. You know, my world, when I got out kind of outside of my world, I mine was more about trying to fire people up for this for the job. Right on. That's what I did. So, and that that takes in all that other stuff, you know, search and and nozzle and all that kind of stuff. So there you go.
SPEAKER_03Right in my wheelhouse. I love it. I love uh mote human motivation and psychology. I absolutely love it. So uh audience, get your questions ready for Jerry and myself. Sam is in the YouTube chat. He is monitoring, he is ready to throw your questions at us. So please, please, please get them ready and let's have some fun and let's get to those beautiful sponsors. Everything in the fire service gets tested training, instincts, equipment. That's why Snaptight designs and builds its fire hose to perform no matter the challenge. Durability, packability, and kink resistance. Every single line is tested before it leaves the factory so you know you can count on it. Snaptight is American-made firefighter trusted. Visit SnapTightHose.com to learn more or find a distributor near you. Firefighter safety and accountability starts with being able to quickly find and identify individual firefighters operating on the fire ground. Identifier safety comes with the best photoluminescent materials for durable firefighter identification solutions that can glow for up to 20 minutes, 20 hours with no switches, no batteries, which means being able to rapidly identify firefighters by name, unit, or assignment, even under hot fire conditions. All specifically designed and tested for the rigors of the job. Use code vigilance on your order. When you order from identifier, use code vigilance, save 10%. Hey, and go. If you're going to make an order, use that code. It lets them know how valuable it is for them to be on here. Be seen on scene, identifiersafety.com. And the last thing I want to talk about in the sponsor slot here is the Ramagus Papers. They are coming. The Ramagus Papers, the book is coming. It has been, Kyle has been, if you know Kyle, he's been working on this most of his professional career, but he's been focusing on putting this out for all of 2026. And it's amazing. It is so close to being done. And I'm so excited to get to share it with everybody. There's going to be a lot of hype coming about it. And I'm counting on all the scrappers and all the vigilantes to help share that hype as that book gets so close to release. So the Romagus Papers, it is close. I'm saying I don't want to, we can't put a date on it yet because it's not 100% sure. But within probably four to six weeks, we're going to be, we're going to have have it locked in. So we'll see. All right. All the hype is done. The sponsors are done. It's time to talk to Jerry. And as everybody knows, whenever we're doing the scrap, I always send out an email telling you, you know, kind of set the expectations, what to expect, and then ask for topics. And Jerry's first topic that he sent, I absolutely love because it was all around one of my favorite things in the fire service, and that is the firehouse kitchen table. And you know, people say I that he's a quiet, non-assuming person until you get him talking about the fire service and specifically his experiences throughout his career. So, man, talk to me about what you love about the fire, uh, the firehouse kitchen table, the power of it, as well as the power of storytelling.
SPEAKER_01So we'll kick it off there. Well, I'll I've learned most of the things I've learned from from other people telling their stories and what happened to them and stuff. And I get inspired by that. And you know, it's inspiration or being inspired is one of the biggest one of the best things you can have in your back pocket in this business. You know, we've all worked with those guys that they're walking through this, figuring out, man, I don't know if this is my where I'm supposed to be or not, you know, and and and it's easy for some of us to recognize no, you're not. If if that's really if that thought has hit your head, it's not. Because if you can't get excited about this job, uh you're probably in the wrong profession. And I've encouraged people to really think that through. So I learned a lot from listening guys, especially older guys that's been there, done that, and the stories that they tell, and other firefighters. So when I made company officer, uh one of the very first things I did as a company officer was we have family time at dinner time. When the dinner bell hits, we're all sitting at the kitchen table. Now I had guys that would say, Well, Captain, I I don't eat that food. I've got my own food I bring because I I'm working out, I gotta have a lot of protein. I said, Okay, we'll eat your food at my kitchen table when we call the when we call the roll. Or if you have to eat it at three, we're gonna assemble at six. I expect you there because you're part of this company. And then I had a guy that was one of my senior firefighters, and he never ate, he didn't eat dinner. It just wasn't his thing. But he always was the first one at the table with his cup of coffee, and he stayed the whole time. You know, that's how powerful it was. We have a dryer erase board behind us at station seven when I was a battalion chief, and sometimes our kitchen table talk got to the dryer race board.
SPEAKER_03Oh wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Drawing, drawing scenarios and stuff. So if if if you're you know, I get tired of officers saying, you know, I they're they're they're they're all different now, and they're not like they used to be, and these kids and all this and blaming, you know what? Be a leader in your firehouse, set some standards, make some demands, and this is this is one of them. We build firehouses now for with 10,000 square feet in it, we put five people in there, you know, for expansion. Y'all probably did that where you were from.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Three or four guys in there, you got 5,000 square feet apiece, and we wonder why our team's not very cohesive. Hmm. Imagine that, you know. So it starts with a kitchen table. I love it.
SPEAKER_03And I and and and to your point, one of my favorite things and people who I as I travel, it was built like the the old is really cool when it's 1920s, 19 teens, but even like the 1960s, and the kitchen and the day room is all one area. I love I absolutely love that. And that going away, I I firmly believe has hurt that cohesiveness that you're talking about, that forced togetherness.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I agree. I agree. But you know, we we everybody watches whatever they want to watch on their own cell phone. They go five different directions in a house, they go lay in their bunks, close their door. Who who put doors on bunks when I was a rookie? You know, we slept in one big room and listened to each other snore and fart and do all the things they do. That was fun, you know. That was some good times. And sadly, our young guys don't get to experience that.
SPEAKER_03Right. And there is there is the argument for the the sleep and the cancer and and all that. I get that. I I'm not we're not downplaying that, but I do know that some of my favorite times was in like the station two, the I mean, the weights were that that was the workout room, it was the bunk room, it was the it was everything, and it was all there together. And like you said, uh I can remember throwing stuff across the room to get someone to quit snoring, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and absolutely some fun times that we don't have time for.
SPEAKER_03I could I could talk for hours just about that, but coming back from the rides and everybody claws into bed and then the late night conversations in the dark.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I got some I got some hilarious stories about that stuff, and and I don't know, it's just you know, we we we we get we got to a point here where we're our leaders in our fire departments are just complaining and the it boils down to you're not being a leader. You know, make a make a standard and set that standard. Thompson talks about culture, you know, be a culture that people are hearing about and want to come. I want to be in that firehouse. Why do you want to be in our firehouse? I I hear y'all are, I hear this, I hear that. Oh, yeah, you do. Yeah, it kind of gets out. That's because we eat together, we sleep together, we sit around the table together, we clean together. I mean, because we do it together. We are a team, you know.
SPEAKER_03Oh, and the power of togetherness. You can't, I don't think it can be understated. We're like, I love what you say when you say set a standard. Because for whatever reason, over the last, I would say, 20 years, it's like officers have almost shied away from the ability to put their foot in the ground and say, hey, this is the way it's gonna be. It's like they don't believe they have the power to say, this is what's gonna be in my firehouse.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, uh I said I sat with with Dugan and Galeano's class, you know, this house rocks years ago. And it was exactly, I was already a captain, and I'm just sitting there going, yes, somebody's doing what I believe in, you know, they're out there preaching it. But I I've told my guys, I don't care what C shift does, you know, on at any station. I don't care if this is what they're allowed to do. That's you you want to go work on C shift, go. We're gonna we're this is where we're gonna be and how we're gonna be, you know, and what we're gonna wear. And you have options, you know, make your choice. And what we learn is we get some pretty high functioning dudes come show up, and women and show up, and and we got a pretty good thing, you know. We got people, very few people leave, and more people wanting to come.
SPEAKER_03No, and I think high performers love a standard, they do, they do, and and I think most people want to be high performers. Now, there's exceptions to that, of course. Absolutely, but when you give them a standard, I think they thrive on it. And if you don't remain consistent on it, of course, that's where they have a tendency to slip to whatever is allowed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So that was, you know, one of the things that that I probably should have sent you in a paragraph was, you know, uh leadership doesn't allow you to sit back on your on your laurels. Leadership actually, every advancement you make, that just adds another pile of responsibility and and and and things that you've got to get done in a day, you know. And and where I worked for for most of my battalion chief years, I was the only battalion in a city of eight stations. I was pretty busy. And I wanted to make calls. I didn't, I didn't, and I made a lot more calls than what they sent me on because I just wanted to go and hang out with the dudes and and watch my guys work. I just my heart swelled up when they were out there doing that, you know. And it took them a while to get used to me being there a lot because you know, a lot of chiefs show up and they're just picking guys apart. Sure. I I just wanted to be there, I wanted to be there and be a part of it, you know. And and I was that way for 35 years. I know I'm probably an anomaly, but man, I loved it. You know, I love I love what the whole service stands for and what them guys were doing. And now, six years post-retirement, um I've kind of I've been dealing with a whole lot of different stuff. And some of my my good buddies that's had problems with the career, you know, and some of those monsters are getting up in them a little bit. So, you know, I've got the same thing, but I've I've been able to deal with them just fine. We go to bad calls, and right, but man, we're some of the best people in the world to go to those calls. And that was just that just gave me the pride, you know, to take my crew and say, when the worst thing's happening out there, I want my guys there, you know, because we'll only do it right, we'll get there, but we'll come back and take care of each other as well, you know. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_03No, there's so much there, so much there. Keep me, keep me in line, buddy. I can honestly I I love hey, that's what the scrap is all about. It's tangents and rabbit holes and uh and meandering and having fun. That's what and great conversations. Yes, sir. Uh that's what it is all about. Uh I do want to include the audience, and they are already throwing questions at you. So we're gonna pivot to their questions, and you take them whichever direction you want. I'm gonna, yeah, the people are up. There's a lot of hype in there. I can't even I can't even focus on it. But this first one's coming at you from Jim Kuzmack. I'm sorry if I've abused your name, but Jim Kuzmack says, question, Chief, what is one other thing you did to bring the shift together? The family meal time is genius.
SPEAKER_01When I was a paramedic riding an ambulance, and I was back in my day, there was one paramedic at a house where there was an engine and a medic. So five guys, one guy was a paramedic. So you can imagine I was pretty busy. And we would make at that those days seven to 15 calls a shift. I would come back from a call after about five o'clock. See, see, Corley, this is an example of a story around the kitchen table. I can't just answer it, I gotta tell the story.
SPEAKER_03I love hey, stories are one of my favorite things. Yeah, but we're gonna run out of time. We're gonna make this a six-hour one. That's on you, but I love stories. If it's one story or you get 20 in, it's up to you. But I love stories.
SPEAKER_01So go after we had cleanup duties and they were all assigned. Well, guess who had the kitchen? The paramedic riding on that side of the road. Wow. Well, at 10 o'clock at night, I come walking back into the station after about five calls since dinner time. Guess what I saw in the kitchen? Dishes and just like everybody had left it. I never said a word. I went to work and I cleaned the kitchen up. That now it pissed me off. Sure. And I immediately went, you know what? When I'm a boss someday, there's something that's gonna happen. I'm going to be a member of this company. I'm not gonna be the leader of it, I'm gonna be a member of it. They're gonna see me working, they're gonna see me involved, and they will understand that I'm as just as passionate about being here and being working as hard as they do. So when I made captain, one of the first things I did is I looked at my two senior firemen, Gary Apple and Wayne Davis, and I said, I don't care how you do it, but redo the cleanup duties, the responsibilities of the day. Everybody is responsible for the kitchen. We will all clean the kitchen together because it seems like most of us use the kitchen every day, whether you bring your own food or not, you know, and or whether you eat with us or not, you're gonna use the kitchen, you're gonna drink the coffee, you're gonna, you know, whatever. So all of us, we changed that deal for those. So those guys that work the hardest and the longest aren't getting the worst jobs. And we also directed them to say, you know what, give them the easiest because they're here the least, you know. So to answer his question, leadership doesn't allow me to sit back and relax. It'll it is it forces me to get busy and to drink some energy drinks, maybe some extra coffee, right? And have an energy level because those are my guys. And if I want them to go with me and run through fire with me, they've got to respect me all the way around. Not just my fire knowledge, but who I am as a person and what I will do for them. And I'm gonna show them to them daily, even as simple as getting out there at bay duty time in the morning and grabbing a mop and mopping the floors. I tell them my conferences, officers, if you want to test yourself, if you want to test your respect from your guys, get out there in the morning when when it's time to do chores and get you a mop in your hand and see if if see if you get to mop that bay from one end to the other. Because if you don't, if you if you're well respected and they love you, somebody's gonna come take that mop out of your hands. You know, if you get from if you get from one end to the other, maybe you ought to set the mob down, go in there and look in the mirror and just have a little conversation with yourself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's beautiful. That I love that litmus test right there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the things you said there, which I really want to dig into a little bit and peel back on, is that lesson, the the power of lessons that we learned that we were where, especially when we're younger, uh, and we say, I'm never gonna do that. When I'm given the chance, that's never gonna be the way it is when I do it. Yeah. And and those are such powerful lessons.
SPEAKER_01I was at a fire. I was one when I was a medic, so I was in my first six, seven years. We had a we had a two or three alarm fires, A-frame apartment building, a-frame roof, wood shingles. So it started on a roof. Guess what? It's burning, looks like a sawtooth, just the whole thing's burning. I go up there with Captain Flanagan and a guy named Kenny Wilkins, three of us, and we're up there. And Captain Flanagan reaches around, and he's he's a well-respected, very calm dude. He reaches around me like this, like we're in a football huddle, and he reaches around Kenny, and we're all helmet to helmet. And he goes, Boys, plan A ain't working. We're gonna go down those stairs right there, and we're gonna take a look at this building, and we're gonna see what plan B is. Yes, sir. So here we go. And man, we go down them stairs. Now, now this is back when Louisville was two stations, so we worked, especially on a fire like that. You gotta get busy, you know. Right. I'll never forget walking down those stairs thinking, dang, that's how I want to be someday. Man, he's not yelling, he's not screaming, he's got us, man, and he's holding us back and going, all right, boys, let's go take a look because we got to go to plan B. And I just I'm telling you, Cory, I'm that's what I thought about walking down those stairs is I want to be like that guy one of these days.
SPEAKER_03So do you think in your career you had more of those moments of that's how I want to be, or more of the I will never be?
SPEAKER_01About three months prior to that, I'm at my first structure fire. I pull up, I'm the engine guy, I'm the I'm the firefighter on the engine. I look out in the front yard and a captain's out there absolutely losing his mind, yelling and screaming, and it's a it's a ripping fire, it's coming out of the back of the house. And I thought to myself, Corley, this is not a I'm not kidding. I thought, what is wrong with that guy?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm only I'm not even a year, right six months old. You're recognizing that that that is not his. Yeah, and I'm a second generator, my dad was a Dallas firefighter for 30 years. I'm thinking, is that how those guys act? I mean, I'm kind of getting into new to this business, you know. Yes, so I've had bad leadership and I've learned from that. I didn't, I don't, I don't disrespect that guy. He it was his some of it was personality, some of it was his excited, some of it was man, the chief might be coming. I don't know, but I know that wasn't how I want to be as a leader, and I stored that back here and I didn't make a deal about it. I didn't go tell all my buddies back in the station, you know, and dog on him. I just stored it away and said, one day, if I ever get the chance to be him, I'm gonna do it different.
SPEAKER_03Right on.
SPEAKER_01And one of my biggest insults from was from Dustin Bortsfield, who who uh was walking past me, you know, walking the water out of a hose one day, and he looks over at me like this. He goes, Man, you're your uh chief, your size ups are killing me like that. And he, you know, and he kept on going. I just look at him and I go, I wonder what that was about. Well, as it turns out, he was the firefighter on the first new engine. We had we had pre-assignments there, so he was a nozzleman. I got there and I checked out with I said, I said, Lewis, well, you can show battalion 160 out. We got a one-story uh brick home. Looks like uh there's a lot of people here. It's in a cul-de-sac, a lot of cars, guys, gonna be crowded, a lot of people stand out in the front yard. And uh Lewis, you can show battalion 160 in command. Let's go ahead and call it a working fire. We have fired through the roof. So that's what I that's how I did it. That's what he did. And he came to me afterwards and he goes, When you started talking, I just thought it ain't nothing. You know, he's too calm, it's too quiet. There ain't nothing here. So he starts taking his pack off. And when I said we got fired through the roof, his pack is you know totally off his back. And he's a nozzle man, so he had to get back, you know. He he's real, he's he was my fastest uh guy to put his gear on, matter of fact, when we all had our little contest. But you know, that's an example of, and when he told me that and all that, and I got the the the the back noise to it, you know, the background. I went back to the station that night that night. I sat in my office and I go, maybe I've made it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because I thought about walking down those stairs, and I said, I want to be that someday. And I just had a kid acknowledge that maybe I'm about to.
SPEAKER_03Send it so calm. Send it so like it wasn't even an insult, it's a compliment. How calm he's not he's so calm that he took off his pack. That's a that's a now it's not the result you want, but it's it's an awesome compliment.
SPEAKER_01Right. And it's a it's a compliment. And you know, he was he was, I mean, me and him have a great relationship. We we even as a boss, we played with each other all the time and it was fun. But right, but uh you know, he felt comfortable enough, and there's you another leadership class right there. He felt comfortable enough to you know hit me like that and leave me standing there going, man, what do you do that for? You know, and it was hilarious. We just had a laugh. And then, you know, I got to go home and swell up a little bit because I go, Captain Flag and man, you you you're paying, you're still you're still working here, buddy.
SPEAKER_03You know, so still paying it for it. We're gonna get a plan B. I love it. The uh and the other part of it is I think it was Clyde Gordon. I I want to attribute it to is that when you do your size up, try to sound like you're taking a nap, like you're getting ready to take a nap.
SPEAKER_01You know, Gordon Graham said, you know, you like the that's you know, as Billy Goldfitter talk about the you know, the trash guys, you know, they don't come around the corner first day, scream their head off because there's trash cans everywhere. It's what we expect, you know. So act like you've been there before. Football analogy. If I was your football coach and you go down there and spike your football after a touchdown and make a big dance in the end zone, I'm probably gonna have a problem with that. Honestly, I really think I'm more fun than I'm gonna sound. But my my point to you, my point to you is, dude, hand the ball to ref, come over here, because that's what we've been practicing for all week. Why does it expect like it's a big exciting thing? We got another one to do in a few minutes, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Barry Sanders is one of my all-time favorites. Like he every every touchdown, he just handed the ball off to the ref. See, that's cool, that's classy. Without a doubt. Kyle Piv coming at you. Piverall wants to know, Chief, how can we show others the importance of family time, togetherness, and standards? Oh boy. Well, there's a lot to unpack there, so you can go any direction, any direction you want. Have fun.
SPEAKER_01There's a first of all, you know, I'll I'll I'll talk about the fact that that guys who think like him, think like us, that that are consider themselves into the job, they think on a different level. And they got to know that and recognize that. It took me a long time to get that. And Dave Dabowski, who you had on, oh yeah. Uh, there's a great story there with his son, uh, you who had a very similar question just like that at the kitchen table. And and Scott Thompson was there with me. Okay. And and Scott actually brought it up first, but he goes, you know what, you've been so fortunate to be with your dad. Your dad only runs in with the high tier, top-tier firefighters, and that's who you've been exposed to, you know. And you think about a kid like that that's been with Dave and all the people he knows and the fools and all, and he goes to a firehouse with a couple of guys that ain't don't quite get it yet, you know. Right, man, you think of how think about how frustrating that could be for a kid with his energy level and how, man, that's that's not how my dad's friends are, you know. So that's kind of the questions he's asking. And I've always said, be um the best, the best, I'm trying to think of the word I always use. I just I just went oh folks on myself, but right on. You gotta be, you know, you gotta be exciting and excitable, and it needs to come out of your blood. And you can your body language needs to show that you're passionate. That's the first step in that stuff, you know. So, so when you're in the firehouse and and you're you get a buddy at the kitchen chapters, I promise you, there's one other guy in your firehouse that that might think like you do. And I told one of my other buddies this who was out giving giving me the same problem about well, we're all none of my guys want to train, none of them want to do anything. I said, Then you be the trainer. He goes, Man, I only have two years on the job. I said, I'm gonna start feeding you information. I brought him pamphlets and books that fire rescue magazine paper deal. What I'd I'd bring in fire engineering magazines and I'd say, do this article. And I'd say, go out in the bay, get the tools out, and to your other firefighter. And I said, What's what's gonna happen before long? There's gonna be another person show up. What y'all doing out here? Oh, we're just going over this. Oh, okay. I mean, listen. Next step, another fourth guy, fourth guy shows up. Before long, the officer shows up. Oh, what y'all doing out here? Oh, we're training. Before long, you're gonna be the one expected to train because it's it's an un, you know, it's it's not, it's not on your callers. You're not the trainer, but all of a sudden they're gonna go, what you got for us today, Matt? Right. And he'll go, I got something for you. Be an example and let that stuff ooze out of you. And guess what? It will get contagious. To answer his question, uh, kitchen table time is important. Come up with a keep something in the back of your head, uh, a little story to tell, a little trivia to make, a little 15-minute deal about when you're at the kitchen table, and all of a sudden, guys will be thinking, uh, wonder what we're gonna talk about tonight.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's called it's it's you're gonna have to think about it a little bit in the head. I had a guy named Conrado Martinez who worked for me, and ever most people know him because he was he's pretty popular in the FDIC world because he was a poper and a drummer, real fun guy. And uh he always would come up to me, what do you got for me today, Captain? And what that means is he knows that I'm gonna give him one little tidbit to go think about.
SPEAKER_03Right on.
SPEAKER_01And he the reason I'm even telling this story is because he challenged me. I'm driving to where I got a 45-minute drive into work. I go, oh boy, Conrado's working with me today. He's gonna want something. Right. What can I what can I do? You know, so I always was always ahead of him, always had a little something for him. Same thing, kitchen table. If you can get your guys there, first or second time, just have something. Firefighter level guy. I'm gonna assume he's a firefighter. Doesn't have to be, you know, whoever asked the questions what I mean. Sure. Uh just have something to make a little conversation about or start a little 15-minute pre-plan or post-plan about what we did last shift or something. I got a question. Play stupid if you want to. I got a question. Can we talk about this for a minute? And it begins a conversation. I've seen so many meals that's supposed to last 15-20 minutes, go two hours longer, because guys get involved and and because it becomes contagious. Just saying.
SPEAKER_03One of the things I love about what you said there is intentionality and being deliberate about it, like doing it on purpose, not an act, like it doesn't happen on accident. It takes forethought by you to set up a success that you can have. And the thing is, uh, Kyle, just like Jerry said, if you are intentional about it, if you have something in the back pocket, it doesn't have to be elaborate, doesn't have to be, you know, but have something, and then people will man setting the expectation. That's beautiful, Jerry. I love it, man. You gotta fire it up right now.
SPEAKER_01Me too. I did something silly one time, but I didn't have anything. I'm like, oh shoot, I go, I read this somewhere in Reader's Digest or something, which nobody's gonna know what that is in this audience, but that you know, why why are manhole covers round? You know, and I asked Conrado that because manhole covers have a lip going all the way around, you know. Why are they round? And he sat there and stared at me, you know. And I use this, I've told this to thousands of people because it's funny to me. It's the only shape that if you lift the big old heavy lid up, you know, and you turned it, it it's the only shape that won't fall through. Fall through. Yeah, yeah, is that a fire service deal? I don't know. Maybe not, maybe it is. We used to pry manhole covers up and we'd balance them standing straight up, didn't we? Yeah, absolutely. Well, if that was a square, guess what could happen? Oh, yeah. So I turned it into a firehouse trivia question, you know. Just simple, silly things like that. We did, we did for fun and made our firehouse more fun, you know, a place to learn and a place to be yourself.
SPEAKER_03No, and I had a company officer in my battalion who would do a discussion each night. He would come up with a philosophy, it was he he would get deep into some philosophy and and bring it up at the dinner table. And and the young guys would just look at him like, what is this crazy stuff you're talking about? But they they they really did enjoy it. They looked forward to it. It was it was fun at that house where I was stationed as a battalion chief to sit at that table and enjoy those after dinner conversations. Yeah. Although when he started them, they were looking at him like he was a pink cow, you know what I'm saying? Like absolutely. But he he made it, he was the company officer, he made it normal, and it became expected.
SPEAKER_01So, so what he could do the next round after he realized, well, they think I'm a pink cow, okay. Jimmy, you're you're you're six months in, you bring the topic next year. Right on, you know, right on. And we don't get to be judges of his topic, we jump in, especially that officer. He better have some follow-up or some feedback with this kid. You know, he if he even if he has to think up something really weird, get involved in his conversation like you, like you appreciate him doing what you ask him to do. No, and by example, by example, the buy-in by yes, before long, before long, everybody you know is is starting to buy into this. And when am I gonna get my chance to bring my topic? I'm gonna I'm gonna blow them away with this one, you know. Larry Larry Connolly, you know, Larry? Oh, yeah, he's Saint Lewis. Yes, he said the other day on his show, that's where I got that phrase that it was in that paragraph I sent you, equity stake. He uses that word. You know, have equity stake. Let your guys have equity stake. Maybe how much different would we be if we truly had to do like lawyers and buy into a law firm? Okay, if you want to be at this house, you got to put in a thousand dollars into the kitty if you want to show up here. Nice. Would that would that not change some of these guys? You know, some of the guys that just show up. Equity stake, man. That now they're in. Now they're in it to win it, you know, and they're involved.
SPEAKER_03Uh Larry Conley, you brought him up, so I'm gonna say shameless plug. August 11th, on the scrap. He is finally coming on the show. It's long overdue, but he is coming on the show. It will be good, it will be awesome. So tune in for that one.
SPEAKER_01I'll do a little I'll do a little conference with him in Missouri, and he's always there, and his brother David's there. Scott comes some and me and Scott do that class together. But uh man, he's those guys are a ball just funny around right on.
SPEAKER_03Uh Jay Mosesar. What can a fire department do to develop leadership when the current leaders haven't been developed themselves?
SPEAKER_01That gets asked almost every week, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_03Right, it is a it is I think it's a I think it's a massive uh issue across every organization in some level. So it's just it it does get asked because it it's again if you if you solve that one, that's a bestseller. You can oh I agree.
SPEAKER_01That that kid can retire if he puts the book out. Because you know, I I'd I'd start by saying I don't know, you know, to be honest with you. I don't know. I just know that that my the bosses that I attracted to were high-energy guys who loved the job, who had equity stake in our organization. And then as I got a little older, Chief Lasky came to town and introduced me and a bunch of us to there's a whole world outside of Louisville, Texas, you know, and I started getting to meet some of the superstars around the country, and because of him, because we were we we never did get encouraged to go anywhere, you know. And uh you get around some of those people, you come back and you you learn and you bleed that stuff out, and it comes out of your pores and people start picking up on it. Now, I'm gonna say right now, I got enemies there. I mean, there's some people don't like me, and we won't go into all that. Some of us because I had to be their boss, you know. And I will be a boss. That I I promised the boss I would be one if I had to. So uh, but he asked the question that's one of the biggest challenges in every fire department, is getting officers ready to be officers because we don't have enough time, we don't have it in our budget. In his case, he he talked about maybe the officers that are already officers weren't really ready, and there may not be the best for teaching, you know.
SPEAKER_03Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_01I know I know there's a department that that I can talk about, and and he can work on a way to build this in. Getting people like you, maybe maybe some of my programs, but people coming and talking to your organization helps a lot because uh it's hard to be a it's hard to be a prophet in your own land, so to speak. But people, if I if I come, I used to go to there's a guy named Colin Schule that invite me to Canada and I'd go up there to his department on uh two different occasions, and and you know, those guys would eat it up. I've got I carry emails that they left me because they inspire me to keep getting on an airplane and going and doing it again, you know, because they wrote they they made such a difference. Just a simple little paragraph I said. So get your guys exposed to some outside influence, whether they come to you or you guys are out training. The the city of Plano, which is a metroplex of Dallas down here, or a suburban suburb of Dallas, they do a little deal, and the only way I know about it is because they invited me there. And they have a week-long officer school for any new drivers and any new captains. And the drivers are in there. I think, I think it's the drivers because they're eligible to bump up in a year or so. So let's start getting them some. See, that's their ex there's their their way to start getting guys some information earlier. But they would give them a four-day class, and then on the fifth day, they would invite officers, leaders from around the metroplex of people they know. So I got invited one time, and we set up at front as a panel, and they go, Okay, y'all have been in a week-long class that we've put on. Here's some guys that's been there, done that, that are I use the word loosely well respected in their field. Sure. Because I was there, that was fun. So the wind's picking up on you. Yeah, I know. I gotta get that down a minute. But I'm I'm in a story, so we got okay, okay, yeah. Anyway, priorities, priorities. Give those guys a chance to sit and talk to somebody that's been there and done that, you know. And they applied some of the things they learned, and then they they they asked some questions, you know, and these guys jumped in there and told them from experience here's what's going on, you know. So uh that's what that's what it's about. So that's a good example of a department that's putting a lot of energy and actually funding into the fire department. So that's that's the way it is. Just you guys, go ahead. Go ahead, take care of business. You can just survive. My wife's trying to help, but we ain't gonna get it stood back up. So I'm just going. I got my arm propped now. I'm doing great. But to answer his question, yes, I I man, that's the question that I wish I had an answer for. It's the million-dollar question, without a doubt. My my biggest response is stay excited, don't let people steal your your passion.
SPEAKER_03Yes, that's that's that's a valid, validation.
SPEAKER_01Because obviously, this is one of the up-and-comers in that fire department that's gonna that's that's got a desire, that's got equity stake, and he's looking for answers, you know. But but it requires it requires energy, it requires the guys up above to recognize we need to start doing something now because you don't develop officers overnight, you don't develop them in a minute or two, you develop them over a lot of time. And and I can tell you from experience, I don't care how much time they put into you, they're not gonna have you prepared for everything we face in this business. No doubt about it. I can I can go into an hour's worth of that too, and it's it's ugly. Uh but you just can't, you know, it's just you gotta think on your work in the gray, you know.
SPEAKER_03No, and and two things I want to say on top of that. One thing you said in there was get outside your department. It is so important to get not because your department's bad or anything like that, it will keep you vitalized, it'll keep you from becoming, you know, losing your passion, losing your energy. And you can bring back so much to your department. Get outside your department. It's uh Brian Brush, one of my favorite quotes is Brian Crush. I'm sorry, I can't believe I said that the wrong way. Brian Crush, one of my favorite quotes is once you get outside the walls of your fire department, you realize the fire service has no walls. Yeah, I absolutely love that quote. So do that. The other thing he said, which I've I might be having old person because I just lost it in the in the quote. So I I'll if I think of it, I'll I'll interrupt you. Okay. Are you ready for some more questions?
SPEAKER_01Sure. I I feel bad.
SPEAKER_03I didn't answer that one very well, but no, I think I think you I if there was an answer for it, brother, I I believe someone would have found it. I don't think there is one. I think there's only ways to mitigate the the symptoms that come from that. You know, that all you can do is deal with the symptoms uh until attrition and uh change and change takes time. Change is friction, friction causes heat, and heat causes discomfort. And so there is no easy answer for it. It's just surviving it until the change can take place.
SPEAKER_01I can tell you another little bitty thing that uh departments can do. We did it. Okay is when uh when I promoted to driver, I the second shift that I was supposed to be a driver, I was riding the seat, and that was horrible. Oh wow. I was excited, right? But I had a bad MBA out on Interstate 35, you know 35. Oh yeah, in your town. And there was a young girl, 16 years old, laying on the yellow on the white line, out of the car, laid out. What did I do? I was an ambulance, I was a paramedic on an ambulance two shifts ago. What do you think I did? Lock in, lock in on patient care patient care. My radio, who I just called for a second chief to come help me, or a first chief at that time. And uh I laid my radio down and went to working on her because I I resorted to what I know. Yeah. I wasn't ready to be an officer that day. You know, it didn't even hit my head that I'm fixing, you know. So we instilled the the the fact, and this cost a little bit overtime money because I can't go ride, I can't go ride a seat for two years. I gotta be a I gotta learn to be a driver engineer for two years before I'm eligible to ride a seat. And if there's nobody else that's that can ride if my boss is off, then we pay overtime. So there's the cost in it, you know. Somebody might have to swing. I don't want to swing. Well, you need to because so-and-so is not ready to be a driver or an officer yet, you know? So no and then the same same thing for captain to to battalion. Just because you make captain, you're not gonna come do my job for two years. I need you to be good at your job, and then we'll get you in there and start training you to be do my job. That doesn't mean you're gonna do it the next shift. We're gonna start working with you after two years.
SPEAKER_03But it does take someone, and like you took you touched on it earlier, it's a standard. Like you had to set that standard and say, this is the way it's gonna be. And so many organizations don't have that priority or standard. And without that, what do you have?
SPEAKER_01Well, this is one of the things that Lasky brought when when he was there is we we changed to that to solve that problem a little bit. So right on that that helped a lot. So helped me for sure.
SPEAKER_03Solid. Okay, I got do you need this the does the is that thing good? Are you good? Yeah, it's leaning on my back if it looks like that. I can take care of it. You I can talk about something for a few minutes while you fix it. Fix it. Go ahead, talk. 30 seconds. All right, you do you do your business, and I will I will talk about because one thing he brought up was Cornwall Fire Department and um love them, know them, don't know them as far as everybody out there. Uh Jaime Reyes is one of my favorite people on the planet. Uh, I owe him so much from my first trip to FDIC, where he was he was absolutely my savior when I first went out there to teach, and he taught me so much. But uh not just not just my personal relationship with him, but their officer development program, I think, is a model that a lot of people could emulate. That week long that they invest in their people and put them through scenarios and invest in not just the tactical side, but the the personnel side and how to deal with interpersonal problems and relationships, it's phenomenal. And Jerry brought it up, and it is an amazing thing. So I wanted to touch on that. And that was the thing I forgot a minute ago, so I did bring it up. Oh, here you go. All right, everything's good? Yeah, all right. I'll throw it over there. It's good when the wind blows here. Hey, that's what I said. The best thing about the scrap is that it's live. You never know what's gonna happen. And the worst thing about the scrap, it's live. So uh Seth Drew is coming at you. More questions, man. There's a lot of questions coming. So he wants to know we've worked hard and are seeing positive momentum building our department's training culture. How do I keep the momentum going while still focusing on mastering the basics? You said he's it it's getting positive momentum.
SPEAKER_01Is that what it's positive momentum, and they are building a strong training culture. Training is every day, every day. These guys have to know that something after, it don't matter how busy we are, what kind of food we're gonna eat, whatever, whatever, training is every single day. And I don't mean the kind that you put your gear on, you go out and sweat like we do in Moore, Oklahoma, or Louisville, Texas. I'm talking could be kitchen table time. It could, you know, hot day, could be out there at 10 o'clock at night, we're gonna run out and real quickly, throw our bunker gear on, see who does it the fastest, make it fun. Training is every single day. And that's how you build the momentum and don't make it grueling on people. Now, on a cold day, a cool day, that's when you go do the stuff that we have to go do, like the, you know, some you got to do some live fire, this kind of thing. But training's every day. Training's after a call. You know, you leave a you leave an EMS call, you run around and run down the back side of a strip center. Seth Taylor's a good one of my truck captains. He was he was my driver when I was a captain on a truck, and we turned down and did back of strip centers a lot and just sit there and talk about how we're gonna get in that door, you know. Little simple things to build a you're gonna build a habit that training is has to be going on. I went to I went to a local fire department to do my class. They gave me a chance to kind of practice before I did my first FDIC. Nice, which was, by the way, the very the probably the scariest thing I've ever done on purpose. Right on, right on to teach a class at that place. And a friend of mine named Les Stevens, another chief in San Marcus. I'm shameless plugging some of these guys who have helped me along the way. Right on. Let me come down there and to his fire department and do it three days in a row. You know, I really I really got it. Dialed it. Oh, that's then, you know, steps are unbelievable. Never forget stuff like that, you know. So, but but train every day and get to a point that it's expected. And if you don't train, somebody's going, gee, Captain, what what we got today? We're not we're not training.
SPEAKER_03Right on.
SPEAKER_01I went to this, I was telling you, I went to this local fire department, they were gonna let me do a class, and one of the guys came in late and he goes, he's turned around to his buddies trying to be the coolest cat, you know, and he goes, You know what time I you know when I knew we were gonna have training today? When we were pulling into this parking lot. I didn't even know when we were on the rig, you know. So I don't know, he wasn't mad about it. He thought it was kind of funny. And I thought, this is a bad situation for all of us because y'all had an outside instructor, not for me. Because let's say you were there doing your programs, right? Nobody knows you're coming. There's a drop, we we dropped the ball at the leadership level right there, you know. So training's got to be a priority. The apartment from the top of the department down, you know. It it but it doesn't need to be a beating, you know, because if it becomes a beating, guys dread coming to work because of a 20-minute drill. Sorry, but what we're firefighters, that's what we do. My experience anyway. Sorry, Sam. I'm my head's getting chopped off.
SPEAKER_03Sam fights the eternal battle every week. You don't worry, you're not alone.
SPEAKER_01Ask him uh, did I answer it at all?
SPEAKER_03Man, I think you attacked it very well. And I love the fact that you said that that when people don't uh the setting the expectation on training, like one of the most powerful things you can do, and you said it in there, was when they expect like like what's hey, there's something wrong today. We didn't train, right? Like what uh one of the stories I like to tell, which I'll I don't want to take any of your story time, but I want to tell this one real quick because it is a powerful story for uh Captain Davis. And he was talking about how he was he was um enjoying when a person would come on overtime to his shift because they were more appreciative of his leadership style than his own crew was because they'd started to take him for granted how much he took care of them. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_03And and but he said that they were starting to to gripe a little bit whenever they were training. There was a little bit of negativity creeping in. And we were talking about it on the phone. It was just a minor conversation about this thing, you know. And but one of the things he realized through that conversation, it was his own realization. He said, Holy shit, it's my fault, Corley. He goes, I allowed it to become a question mark of whether we were going to train today. So when those days when I said, Hey, we're doing it, they were like, Oh crap, we don't get the day off. You know, so because he let it become unexpected, you know, the consistency wasn't there.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03And anyway, that's that reminded me of that, that powerfulness of that story of that, hey, wait a second, something's wrong today because we're not training. If you can get there, you're winning the game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. One of the things I did as a battalion, I like I said, I had most of my battalion life, I had I had six houses and then a seventh one was built. But you know, if we were going to do engine company drills, you know how many drills I had in the day? I had six engine companies. I had six drills.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, so if they're an hour or if they're an hour, hour and a half long, guess who's staying out there daylight till dark in the winter time, you know? And then I got engine companies showing up and they're like, uh, hey, we had to train, you could come up here and do this, you know, blah, blah, blah, from some of your 25, 30-year guys. I look at them and I go, let me tell you something, mister. I got five more of these to do. So you just show up, have your gear on when you get to the drill field, like you know you're gonna train, and that saves five minutes because you don't have to get out and chit-chat a minute and then go back and get your gear on. Get it on, have it ready when you pull in drill field, we'll get you in and out, and you'll be gone. But remember, five o'clock tonight when you're sitting down at the dinner table, I'm still out here working on my sixth engine. So I don't want to hear it. You know, that's I've I've said that before, but I'm not a chief. This those are my guys. I don't get to just go to one drill. I'm going to all of them. They're my guys.
SPEAKER_03No, no, and and and and man, it's so like I wish more people could understand that when you take by doing that, you give yourself, and I don't mean you do it for this reason because it's not, but you're leading by example, first of all. But the other thing you give yourself is that morally uh superior position to say, hey, look, show up with your gear on, get done fast, because not only is it gonna be faster for you, it's gonna be faster for me. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I'm and I'm standing there in bunker gear myself, right on, and I'm not going in, I'm not putting on a pack, I'm running this drill, but I'm in my battle gear like I expect them to be. So lead by example all the way, man, all the way. And and because guys, we're the worst, Corley. We're we're I used to say in my class, the last few classes I did, I call it my last lecture, but I say, egos and immaturity ran me out of the fire service. I just got so tired of this stuff. And half the guys back in my home department, if they're watching, they have no idea some of the stuff that I dealt with and and we dealt with, you know, and and all chiefs can say that.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And even when days were slow, I would even, and I had a slow day, I'd go to HR and I'd go sit in HR and I'd talk to the the lady that does our payroll, and I'd I'd get a little tip from her, you know, because we had to do payroll. If there was a problem, she calls me, I call a captain, and I'd go to HR and I'd I'd have good relationships with those people because you know, you work probably a lot, your department's a lot like mine, I imagine. HR can be a good friend to you, or they can be a pretty good enemy to you, you know. So I tried to build relationships all over the city, not only, but but visit my firehouses at the same time. So set the example even when it comes to training every day.
SPEAKER_03Man, I love that. I absolutely love it. And that is a recipe right there. If you get nothing else out of the scrap and all the stories and everything else we talk about, if you get nothing but that, that is that is gold for your career, uh especially as you promote up the chain, man, setting the expectation.
SPEAKER_01I saw I did this deal in 1992. I went to a conference. This one I was probably 25, and this guy in a suit, he was the main speaker in a suit. Well, I don't like suits. I want a guy dressed in a fire outfit, you know, or at least looks he he was a businessman they hired to come right to the keynote. But he did something. He he read a poem up there, silly poem. I don't do poems, but I in 1992 I remembered this, and I say it at every at every awards banquet, rookie school graduation, and every conference I teach. But it goes real quick, it goes like this. I saw them tearing a building down, a group of men in my hometown with a hoe heave ho and a lusty yell. They swung a beam and the side wall fell. Well, I asked the foreman, are these men skilled? The kind you'd hire if you had to build, and he laughed and said, Oh no. Common labor is all I need. You see, we can easily wreck in a day or two what it's taken builders years to do. So I thought to myself as I walk away, which of these roles will I play? Am I a builder who works with care, measuring life by rule and square? Or am I a wrecker who walks around content with the labor of tearing down? And that's all it was. And I left there that day and I go, you know what? That's fire service, that's fire service stuff right there. You either a builder or you're a wrecker. There ain't no in-between in our business. Because if you ain't moving forward with these guys that are trying to take us a certain direction, you're dragging us back. We don't need neutral. You know, you've worked with guys in neutral. Oh, yeah. They're a pain. They take all of our energy. You know, we can't go have the fun. We, you know, as battalion, you go to work, you want to have a fun day just like you did as a firefighter level, you know, but then you walk in, you got a problem. Oh, God, it just sucks the life out of you. And I get that mean face look on my face, like guys always say I have. You know, my resting bitch face, I guess, is what it's called.
SPEAKER_03All right, I got a couple here coming uh from I think acquaintances of yours, at least I know one of them is, but Michael Town. He says, as someone who experienced being a new hire under Chief Wells, ask him to talk about how he treated new hires, specifically asking the new hire what their expectations were of him as a chief.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, we spend so much time grilling these guys, you know, getting them, get them to come to work and setting our ex telling them what we expect of them, and we're kind of up here looking down on them. But then, you know, I those guys come to us with expectations too, you know. And the reason I say that, Michael, is because I believed that we had a reputation and I worked hard to maintain that reputation that Lewis will have. And I'll be danged if I'm going to let that reputation be tarnished while I'm working there, you know. And I wanted to know, number one, what do you expect from me? What have you heard about me? And what do I expect? So I don't want to let you down, you know. Number number two is if you came with these greater expectations of what we can really deliver, I want to be the first one to tell you, buddy, we're not quite that good. You heard that maybe, maybe that's a little overinflated. Let's try to drop it to this level. We'll we're gonna we're gonna be pretty good, but maybe we're not gonna be that good, you know. But Michael was a guy, remember him, he he worked for me for a while, you know. And but I spent time with the rookies. Eight hours most I spent one of my eight hour days with all of them and loved that because it got me a chance to get to know them. Because they all come with they all come with tools in their toolbox already, you know. And I think it's our job to learn what that is, you know. So I did. I asked them, what do you what do you expect from me? What kind of boss you like? What kind of boss did you have that maybe you left? You remember? I bet you've got this quote. What is it? 85% of people who leave a job do it for what reason? Bad bosses, baby. Bad bosses. Bad boss. I don't want so to Michael. I didn't want to be that bad boss. Right on. I didn't want to be your next one. So what is it? You know, what do you come with? What's your expectations for us? So I hope that answers his question.
SPEAKER_03No, it's a beautiful answer. The second one coming at you here is from Scott Thompson. And he said, Ask Jerry, ask Jerry how he handled switching to reserve apparatus during the shift. So I feel like there's a story here, but I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01So I went to uh some bad things happened, and I had to get the the operations chief came to me and said, We're gonna clock our battalions around. Chick, cheek, chick, cheek, everybody goes to a different shift. I got to go to where the bad stuff had happened. They wanted some leadership change, just different look. That's a whole nother story. It's probably the it I thought at the time is the worst thing that could ever happen to me in my life. It turned out to be the best. It was oh wow. That's that's a whole nother scrap. If okay, okay. I was like, my my curiosity is why it's it's spectacular. The some of the some of the stories I could tell you based on that. But uh I had a meeting, and one of the things I believe in is if you know every every person who has a job, their number one priority ought to be to know their boss, know what makes them tick, uh, know what they love, know what they hate. You know, and hate's a strong word. Uh maybe not that that's not the right word. Know what they don't like. So I called a meeting. I'm the new guy on this shift. There's been a lot of problems. Uh some guys have been demoted and just a lot of soreness, you know. So it's kind of a kind of a dark place for me to get started, you know. So I go in there and I go, I give them that quote, basically, what I believe there, and I go, so I'm gonna make it easy on you. I'm gonna open up the book, you're gonna see right through me, and I'm gonna tell you flat out, here's what I expect of you. One of the speeches I said to them was, I'm coming to your calls, even your EMS calls, I will show up. Don't be surprised. Don't don't look at yourself and go, Oh my gosh, my shirt's not tucked in, whatever. I'm there to go on calls because I love this job and I love what you guys do. And because I'm a boss now, I don't get to go the patient contacts like you do anymore. Sometimes I need to do that. So I don't have to go deal with other crap that I have to do with. So I get to a point where I go, we've had a lot of engine breaks that breaking down. I said, if your engine breaks down in the middle of the night, your first call is to me. And I had a captain sitting on the front row, looks at me, and he goes, Chief, you mean to tell me if my engine breaks down, goes into limp mode. You know, they did that the last several years, goes into limp mode at three o'clock in the morning. You want me to call and wake you up, my boss? And I go, absolutely do. Yes, sir. And he just he it that and that was hard for him to swallow. You know, I don't want to do that to my boss, you know. I go, I am on your team and I'm gonna prove that to you. And one one of the easiest way I can prove is that right there. And here's the backstory, Corley. The mechanic worked at my firehouse, so the reserve engine was always at my firehouse. But there's also a truck company with five guys in there, too, you know. But I had a driver, my I had a captain ranked driver. So how fast could a battalion chief and his captain driver get out of bed, grab that reserve engine and our battalion rig, run down to where they're broke down, help them switch over because now we're two extra guys to grab some packs or whatever they need, right? Throw them over. Now I've got three highly paid, highly trained guys in their own district ready to make a call again with another one point whatever million dollar fire truck ready to go instead of one sitting on the side of the road out of service, and three guys that can't make a call because their rigs broke down. Right. That much faster I could get them in service, get them back to their house, get some sleep, because there was this this happened. This captain came from our busiest, most busiest night shift. And I get on that engine and limp it back to the station where I'm gonna go to bed, and the cap the mechanic will see it in the morning, you know. And I told him, I said, just try me. Two months, two months, he called me once a month to go help him out. Go help yeah, help him out. And and I made a believer out of him just on something that simple. But I mean, that's not that, you know. I know there's bosses out there that would absolutely rip somebody for waking them up. What do you think I'm supposed to do about this? You know, no, I'm a part of this team. I want uh this is how I can help. I'll bring you a rig. We'll get you in service faster, we'll get you back to your house faster, and I'll get back. I'm in and I'm in and out of bed in one hour, you know. It's not that big.
SPEAKER_03And I want I want to know the relationship with that did you win him over?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean Did he become a believer or yeah, he's a believer. I mean, he was he was you know real standoff is at first. Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_03Because everything that had been going on, and I think who knows who knows how many people have have talked the talk and never backed it up, you know.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I started that meeting with okay, what's my reputation? What do y'all think about me? And I I heard some pretty heard some pretty hard things, honestly. Okay. But you know, it's rumor stuff, it's firefighters talking. I go, I'll probably I'm gonna prove you wrong on that one. We'll just we'll just go. I'm not even gonna address it, but I'll prove you wrong. You know, I love it.
SPEAKER_03No, I love that. I love that story. I love that dedication to to proving to having your having your talk match your walk or your walk match your talk.
SPEAKER_01Go ahead. I hope I hope that's what Chief Thompson was asking about. I I think that's a story. We've had a lot of stories.
SPEAKER_03Uh Austin McKittrick had this to say. This is not a question, but it's coming out. He said, Chief, we still push hard to make the guys understand the legacy built prior to their arrival.
SPEAKER_01Good for you.
SPEAKER_03That's pretty powerful right there.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Austin. That's good. That's one of the things I did. And and you know, I'm a big believer in line of duty death studies because when we when we do a study of a line of duty death even, we're we're learning somebody's name and how what happened to them, and how can I apply that to today for us, you know, learn from it. Well, that's another way of keeping a legacy alive, those guys that went before us, you know. Austin's Austin worked for me a long time. Me and him have corresponded a little bit over time on one of the projects I used to do with the rookies, and and he's told me he's taken that idea and he's carrying it on, which makes me just I'll just swell up with pride when somebody's gonna take something that was mine and and keep it going because he got something out of it, you know, and it's a great way to draw in a rookie, new person, and get them involved, you know.
SPEAKER_03No, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Austin.
SPEAKER_03No, and Sam is looking for uh he Sam does an amazing job of pulling your questions. Sam does an amazing job of finding things like that to show to share. Because I if I every once in a while I'll look over here and try to read the YouTube chat, and it's it's very distracting because you guys like the conversation. That's not my job. Sam does an amazing job of doing that. So thank you, Sam. Uh I love it. Let me see. What uh yeah, okay. I got you, Scott. Scott Thompson's reserve apparatus. I got that one. All right, one more coming at you. Seth Drew wants to know Chief, in your experience, what are the greatest challenges that captains or battalion chiefs face in today's fire service?
SPEAKER_01There's a couple of things. One is this this belief system that all these guys, these kids are coming in so different. Okay, I I think that's I think that's a cop out there. And the reason I say that is because who are the who all these when I go to these conferences and I hear older officers say that, I look at them and I go, Well, what generation are raising these kids that are coming in to burn?
SPEAKER_03Well, we're losing you. I don't know if the wind's picking up, but it's catching your mic. I don't know if you can twist it.
SPEAKER_01Can y'all hear me now? How about now?
SPEAKER_03That's better. I'll tell you if I'll tell you if it gets bad again, but okay. I'll keep you posted. Go ahead, start it over.
SPEAKER_01You remember what I just said? Uh who's raising who's who who is raising those generations in the fire department? Yeah, you know, we come in complaining and we say that's one of the biggest challenges. Well, it the challenge is we get these kids that weren't brought up like like Jerry Wells was. I could swing a hammer, I could, I could, I don't know, I could build a house when I got to the fire department. I did a lot of things, but kids don't do that now. And we talk about that's one of the big challenges. Well, yeah, it is. But it's also one of the one of the greatest opportunities for us to go, you know, start a whole new training regiment because we got a whole new episode moving inside. So we have a whole new episode of training, and Sam's gonna kill me.
SPEAKER_00So that is one of them. Right on. Getting there. No, you're good.
SPEAKER_03That's why I said it's a live show. I know, I love it. Mountains are mountains are crazy. Yeah. But the truth is, most people listen more than they watch. Like the last 90% of the views, I say views, 90% of the downloads are are are audio only. And so only like 10% of the people got to enjoy the view. Okay. Sam, are we good there? Sam will get to enjoy the view, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, so that's one of the challenges, is is the the people, the kids don't come in with the same skills that they did back in the 80s and 70s, 80s, 90s, you know, just because life is different. That's not their fault, though. And we gotta quit us old guys got to quit putting the blame on them, making them feel less, because it's not their fault. You know, they didn't they get raised that way because they it's just the way the world is now. But you know what? You take that same kid, and my gosh, if I get a if I get an address that I don't know, he'll have it pulled up on maps faster than I can get my my suspenders pulled up, you know. They have skills, they're just different than what some of us old guys uh came in with.
SPEAKER_03Right on.
SPEAKER_01So that's one of the challenges. The second challenge is the fact that we're we're going to so much social media and all that stuff that so much of the news gets out faster. Uh, there's so much jabber out there, armchore quarter, arm chair quarterback, and I think it's I think it's negative. I think if we're gonna fix this world, we go back to flip phones and that'd solve all of our problems.
SPEAKER_03I I don't know if it's because we're just getting older or if that is if if if it is true, but it does seem that the the the instant scrolling, death, doom scrolling is just the death of society.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So uh it's great for gathering information, you know. They can get us, they can get us information really fast, but that's one of the bad things. So I that's that's the two I would say that's that I'm kind of think about regularly. Right on.
SPEAKER_03No, that's beautiful. No, uh great, great answers, great questions, great questions, yes, sir. And it's been phenomenal. You've crushed it, and we haven't even got to uh some of the stuff we're gonna talk about, which means you have to come back on another scrap, tell more stories at some point. So we're gonna make that happen. But for now, I'll move to one of my favorite questions, which is book or books that you think firefighters should be reading. I'm always looking for books to read.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I tried to uh I tried to be a little bit different, but man, there's a you've had a lot of guys on this show.
SPEAKER_03No doubt, no doubt. You're episode 363, so there's been a lot of books covered. I've been asking this question basically since the beginning.
SPEAKER_01So well, one of those one of the books, the number one book that I'll say, I don't care how many people said it, because it backs up everything I've been talking about is the book by Simon Sinek calls Leaders Eat Last. Yeah. And it's the concept of you serve your people that are doing the work, you know, your leaders do. And it was from the Marines, you know, he makes the point about the Marines will go through a chow line and it's the officers serving their food, and then the officers come in and eat last. And uh I'll go to a firehouse, or back when I was working, I would go to a firehouse, you know, and they'd invite me and the driver to my driver to uh lunch. And one of them will say, Well, chief, dinner's ready, come on in, get fix your plate. And and somebody would you usually the captain would go, he ain't going first. I'm telling you right now, he ain't going first.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01So that you know, that reputation got out. And it wasn't the physicalness of eating last that I was trying to push the point across. It was the fact that, dude, you do the work now. I remember when I was the hard labor guy, I'm just the boss up here. I get all the fun stuff. I get to sit in the air conditioning in the heat when you're out there working, and I'll jump out to say some cool things to you, and I'll get back in and get warm while you're rolling hose. You work hard. Let me let me support you any way I can. The other thing, the other thing I did with that is when I became a battalion chief, I told my first driver, his name's Gary Apple. I said, Gary, I want I want us to be able to do everything that we can do in this office, I want us to be able to do in this battalion truck. Meaning, get every piece of paper that's a you know, a document. It's probably all digital now, but we had file folders in the back seat back there in the center. And I could do anything from that battalion. I didn't have to say, meet me back at the house. Right. I don't want, I don't want you to come out of your district to come to my district to sign a piece of paper or to fill out a form. I'll bring it to you. Matter of fact, I've got it with me. You know, that's that's just one of the things that's that's along that lines of leaders eat last. I'm I'm I'm here to serve you guys and make all of our jobs better. Right on. So that's that's that's book one. Uh you probably had it before it's your ship. I love that concept by Michael Abershoff.
SPEAKER_03Abershoff, it's your yeah, two of my favorite books you just mentioned. Like I if you put a gun to my head, my favorite leadership book is Leaders Eat Last by Cynic. So gun to my head. I think there's so many good ones.
SPEAKER_01But here's another one. Okay. Probably had had this before. Everything I need to know. I learned in kindergarten. Kindergarten. Remember why remember why I told you sometimes I left the fire service because I just got exhausted with it all. In that book, it talks about sharing, playing fair, being kind, clean up after yourself, don't hit, say you're sorry. Take a nap, you know, simple little things. Wouldn't it be great if we were all masters of that right now? Oh, yeah. No doubt about it. Especially, especially all wadded up in a firehouse with all these personality and stuff going on.
SPEAKER_03It's not that complex. It's just it's just very, very difficult to stay consistent at. It's not that complex, though.
SPEAKER_01And the last one I would say is Tony Dungey's Quiet Strength. Quiet Strength. It's a it's a it's a he's a Christian man, talks about the subtitle of that book is Principles, Practices, and Priorities of a Winning Life. And he he talks about when he got to Tampa Bay. One little quick story. He gets to Tampa Bay, and one of the problems he found out was the towel manager, the team manager, was assigning a towel with a with a paper clip to every player's locker because they didn't have a great budget for towels and the towels were disappearing. So he he put their name on a towel and they had to turn the towel in. That's how he could find out who's who stole the towel when he didn't have enough towels, you know, after practice. And Tony comes in there and learns that, you know, Coach Dungeon, he's like, I tell you what, we're gonna do we're gonna make a statement that we're gonna trust you with towels, that the towels of the organizations don't take them home, don't go wash your cars with them, use them. We're gonna get them washed, put back in your locker. You quit stealing them, and we'll have a whole stack of them ready for you to use, as many as you want. And it was an you know, that's an example. That's just a little bitty paragraph in one page of that book. And I just I just read that and I went, There's a boss that started trusting his players the second he got there. Yes, that's how he built trust and and gained respect by by one little thing, towels in the locker room, you know.
SPEAKER_03Now and you translate that to the fire service with these with these people in positions of authority who are who are like, okay, how many shirts do you have? How many let's uh or insert whatever you know? Shirts always seem to get picked on in the fire service, but but uh you know, it's just it's it's insane. It's insane.
SPEAKER_01These itch me too much. I don't like these, you know. We get it, oh my gosh, guys. Yeah, no doubt. Well, that's that's that's my four books, and then they're not, you know, they're not fire service books. I've read a lot of fire, there's great fire service books. I guess I'm supposed I should say Scott's book, it's a great book too, but you know, I love talking about culture, but the I like to draw fire service lessons from outside the fire service, it's just more fun to me. It's challenging.
SPEAKER_03No, it's hard for me when you start because you throw in functional fire the functional fire company with Scott Thompson, and and then it's hard for me to say, man, that's that is that is man, it's like the million point scale, it's at the top of that scale, and then they're step up and lead like Frank Viscuso, and it's like uh pride and ownership. Speaking of Lasky, you know, like how do you and so anyway, and then you like start leaving out names, and then it's then it's terrible. So, but no, absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_01See, he was my chief for 11 years. I didn't even mention his book, but I read it a lot, you know. I've I was a lot, I was there for a lot of the stories, so that's just one I'm drawing from something I'm not familiar with, you know. So that's it. No, absolutely, brother. Absolutely talking about that was cool.
SPEAKER_03Beautiful, beautiful. The uh we have a thing we do on the scrap, it's called the Five Questions for Firefighters. You have never done them before, so it'll be fresh for you, but this is the sixth version of the five questions for firefighters. So, Jerry Wells, are you ready for the five questions for firefighters? Okay, I'll get it. There are no right answers, it's just your opinions. Oh, perfect. And the the points are arbitrary, assigned by me. Okay, with the help of the live audience. So here we go. Number one. You are you have a time machine, but the only thing you can use it for is to go back in time and give young Jerry one piece of advice. What would that advice be?
SPEAKER_01I already said it. Build you a network outside of your fire department. Make your, you know, time is is the one thing that we all have just a certain amount of, and then it's gone. We're we're out of gas, you're out of gas. Make that time count. You know, I I wasted 15 years of my fire service career. I don't, I'm not gonna say wasted because I was learning, I was studying, I was going to conferences around the Metroplex, Dallas Fort Worth area, but then I found out there's a whole lot more. There's there's, you know, you know about all them fire departments, but man, conferences there, conferences there. I started going and I it pulled me out of my shell, first of all, I get to meet people like you. And I got a whole list of I wrote them down here in the last five or six days, people I've met along the way that have actually made a you know, a subtle or a huge impact. So get yourself out of your fire department, go around top-tier firefighters, you know, that that love the job, that are into the job, and and just grasp what you can off of them because they will give you the energy to go back and survive some of this stuff that some of these guys have been asking about that you just fill your tank up to where nobody can drain you.
SPEAKER_03Easy max points, easy max points for build a network outside your fire. Man, 100%. I love that. Love that answer. Number two, it's job town, it's time. You're in route and responding. You gotta think of the scene from backdraft where he slaps that tape into that cassette deck. What song are you playing while in route?
SPEAKER_01I might get kicked off of the after party for this one, but I'm already excited. I told you, I'm not all that I think I'm more fun than I sound a lot of times, but I've heard a lot of your answers. Okay, I'd love to do some of that. My my answer to you is going to be the William Tell Overture. Okay, yeah, Lone Ranger. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. And the reason that is is because it doesn't have words, it's more of a uh what is that stuff? Kind of what kind of music is that? I just went blank again.
SPEAKER_03Oh, orchestra, like it's like a it's it's it's uh symphony type stuff.
SPEAKER_01Symphony, yeah. It I want my guys thinking, not getting amped up and to where their brains are short circuiting up in there. I want them thinking and just kind of chilling, going and thinking about what we're going to. So with that William Tail, it's just a little bit of a charge up, but there's nothing in there, just headbanging stuff like a lot of the answers you've got before. I'm more of a calm, cool and collected. Let's arrive on scene, hit the parking brake, go work. So I can't say I'm pretty boring that way.
SPEAKER_03It is the first time the William Tail overture has been added. Yes, Sam? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I was like, man, I know my memory's bad, but I think I would remember the Lone Ranger thing. There is a funny story to tell, real quick, which is we used to play Tiger Woods golf at the firehouse in the evenings when everything was done. And whenever someone would make a killer shot, we had a little Bluetooth speaker, and that would start the turn, dun. It would drive our company officer crazy. He would be like, if anybody turns that damn song on one more time.
SPEAKER_01So you know you know what the rest of that Lone Rangers whole thing is? That's who we are. Our job is to go, solve their problem, get back on our silver horse, and drive back before they even know who was there. You know, who are those guys? We're not there to get a thank you. We're just there to go and make it fix it.
SPEAKER_03Who was that masked man?
SPEAKER_01Who was that? Who are those people? And every once in a while you get lucky in your career that someone shows up at your firehouse and wants to meet you and say thanks for what you did. That's why I like that song.
SPEAKER_03Overture has been added to the Spotify playlist, so it'll be mixed in there, and you get max points. And number three, it's a cold weekend at the station, rig checks are done, training is done, PT is done, food is cooking and simmering in the crock pot. It's a lazy day, but you're not being lazy, is what I'm saying. So, what is the movie when you're clicking through in that in that day room? You're clicking through, no matter how many times you've seen it before, no matter what point in the movie it's at, you're gonna finish that movie. What is that movie for you?
SPEAKER_01It's been said before, but it is tombstone because that is legendary dialogue, that is legendary acting with legendary actors, it is loyalty, it is family, friendships, and one of the most ultimate good versus evil movies of all time.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's a phenomenal answer because everything you just said about that movie is true. I've never actually broken it down that way, but it's the fire service, man. One of my favorite quotes in the world is is from that movie, but and it's such a quotable movie, so uh absolutely max points three for three. Number four. What is the one habit that you believe separates average firefighters from exceptional firefighters?
SPEAKER_01It'd be easy for me to say train every day, all that kind of stuff, what we've already talked about. And I'm gonna say it like this these guys that do this, they live their life with passion and enthusiasm, not only at the job, at the fire department job, but they do it with their families, their great dads, uh, their great husbands, their great wives, they go on great vacations, they just live with a great amount of passion. And and that to me separates some of the guys that you know, some of the guys that I've always said we're called to this job. I I really believe that we're called to do this job. And if if you feel like you're not called, then then maybe you really need to look at that. But those guys learn to to do the job and do it well, but also do the rest of the job that makes them a whole person, a healthy whole person. Beautiful mushy.
SPEAKER_03No, no, I mean I not for me, but I'm a mushy guy, so that's okay. Uh that's I think it goes with uh passion. So uh, but 100%, man. The I how would I say that right? I don't think you can be a passionate guy without having that mushy. So I think it's I think it just comes with it.
SPEAKER_01I'm sitting in a house in Red Lodge, Montana, because I was passionate and did my, you know, I had I I went just chased stuff, you know, chase dreams. That's that's that's what we did, my wife and I.
SPEAKER_03Final one, number five. And it's four for four, four for four max points, by the way, because I love passion. Okay, uh, heavy fire and searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on a VES?
SPEAKER_01So the VS is gonna be a successful one of those TV show grabs, right? Hey man, this is this is yours, your that's that's how I see it. So I'm I'm uh when I first heard this question years from somebody else, I was I said, you know what, on this one, I'm gonna be the nozzle man because I know that that guy can't do his job successfully if I don't do my job well. So he gets the glory. I just sit back here in the back and solve the problem, make it happen for him. That's kind of how my mentality was when I rode a truck because you know we didn't get the glory, but we did all the work to make the nozzle guy have a better outcome, you know, a good outcome. And I loved being the back up background guy right on in this question because I pictured a successful VES with a news camera right outside the window when they come out. I wanted to be the dude back there in the hall, no base off with the nozzle.
SPEAKER_03Making it happen. Okay, nozzle is the answer. Five for five max points, easy max points on all five. One of the easiest max points I've passed out five for five. I don't think I could even argue. Well, maybe the William Tell, maybe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's maybe that's that's gonna get skipped on the playlist a little bit.
SPEAKER_03That is original. That is original, but I don't know, man. That that opening trump, I think it's a trumpet.
SPEAKER_01That just just if you just heard that pulling out of the bay before the garage door goes down behind you, wouldn't that be cool? When you flip your lights on, that's what plays in the cab. It just automatically plays that little snippet. Uh maybe, maybe not.
SPEAKER_03You got your max points. I I have to say, you got your max points. And it was, it was, it was great. And that officially puts 363 scraps in the books. My brother, Cherry Wells. Thank you so much for spending your evening with us. You're at uh in Montana, I'm assuming. Yeah, it's evening, we'll call it evening. That beautiful, beautiful view. But uh, if somebody wants to get reach out to you and get a hold of you, if someone wants to get more information from you, what's the best way to do so?
SPEAKER_01Uh Jay Wells, I mean, wait a minute, let's back up. BCJ Wells at gmail.com. And then I'm on I'm on the old person's social media, Facebook, and I I'll read it, but I don't I don't get in discussions on there. So I'll throw something out, watch what everybody else says. So I'm not gonna argue with you on there, and I'm not gonna have a big beat down about it, but you can reach me on there. I've got a I do have a Facebook page on there called the Ultimate Team Sport, which we didn't get to talk about much, but uh maybe later.
SPEAKER_03Right on. We'll have to we'll have to hit it on the next one if if we can get through the questions from them and of course our stories, which are which is uh to me, I love it, man. So uh I think there's a ton of value tonight, but we'll get to it next time. We'll talk, we'll make that a priority. Okay. So um housekeeping for me. Go to patreon.com slash the vigilantes, go become a vigilante. The discord is up and running, it's amazing. We're working on the Discord or the uh Vigilante Codex project, which if you want to have an impact on the fire service, come be a part so you can be involved because the doers of the vigilantes, like I'll how do I put this the right way? The vigilantes are doers, and then the doers amongst the doers are putting together the vigilante codex, and it's gonna be amazing. And it's just the first one, there's gonna be more. So uh if you want to if you want to know more, go sign up. Patreon.com slash the vigilantes, get on the Discord, become a part next week on the scrap. Man, back once more. It is the Dr. Benjamin Martin. He's one of my favorite people to deep dive into leadership and talk to. He's gonna come back then two weeks from today. It'll be time to get on with none other than Chief Candace Ashby back for round two. So you know you want to get here and get your questions in. So you've got Jerry Wells tonight, Benjamin Martin next week, and Candace Ashby uh coming up. That's an amazing July. So I uh Brian enough jabbering for me. Let us get to the after party. Jerry, man, I can't say it enough. Thank you for sharing your stories, your your passion, and the nuggets and just the truthful wisdom that that people I I'm telling you, man, there's some good stuff here. I can't say uh thank you enough. Audience, uh you tune in each and every week. You show up on the front row, the front row gang, the scrappers and the vigilantes, you make the scrap magical. Your questions always right down the middle so that the the guests can crush them. I I can't say enough how much you mean to me and the scrap. It doesn't exist without you. Thank you for tuning in live. I love you all. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning. This job will never be safe. So stay smart out there. Thanks for listening to the weekly scrap. Please subscribe and please share. We'll see you at the next episode.