Paulogia

Apologist Embarrasses Himself on Diary of a CEO (And Christians Loved It)

• Paulogia • Episode 263

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 50:19

John Lennox, billed as the world's number one Christianity expert, sat down with Steven Bartlett on Diary of a CEO and Christians across YouTube couldn't stop raving about it. There's just one problem. When Bartlett repeatedly asked for actual evidence, Lennox had none. 

CJ & Paulogia - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syjzumcB8SY 

original videos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrvJeSugkM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5moyixJuwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBfauKDLSAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR5tThbbmhY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up-XuN_FTEg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_0QH8QGXok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlgK3NrQa4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ngNIhe2uV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrpbhPj76yA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYpiv2d-TLo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKEhEbSUceo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjug94iuBac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEemB0tg7eA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIdC3t0h2yQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kDmWKNVJuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2vlVVhIq5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y2pgc5JNnA

Support Paulogia at
http://www.patreon.com/paulogia
http://www.paypal.me/paulogia

Paulogia Channel Wish-List
https://www.amazon.ca/hz/wishlist/ls/YTALNY19IBC8?ref_=wl_share

Paulogia Merch
https://teespring.com/stores/paulogia

Join this channel to get access to perks:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIS4cWaXgWpznjwovFYQBJQ/join

Paulogia Audio-Only-Version Podcast
https://paulogia.buzzsprout.com

Follow Paulogia at
http://www.twitter.com/paulogia0
http://www.facebook.com/paulogia0
https://discord.gg/BXbv7DS

Support the show

SPEAKER_17

You know, people say the Bible, and I go, well, if you're using something to justify the same thing is true, then that circular reasoning I find to be incomplete. Because I could write on this piece of paper, uh, Stephen Butler is a lizard. Yes. And this piece of paper is true. You then use that same piece of paper to justify the validity of that same piece of paper.

SPEAKER_06

And I go, well, that's that's not solid reasoning. No. It's not solid reasoning, but it is a jingle.

SPEAKER_12

You never know what swimming is until you get into the water. Isn't that true?

SPEAKER_17

It is true.

SPEAKER_12

I I think what I relate there is enough evidence for someone outside who's skeptical to say there may well be something in that. But in the end, you won't know until you step into the water. And then you find that Christ is there to catch you.

SPEAKER_06

I've been treading water for almost a decade, John. So far, there is no Christ guard on duty. Welcome to Pologia, where a former Christian takes a look at the claims of Christians. And today we're once again visiting a massive podcast performing Christian apologetics.

SPEAKER_07

Have you seen The Diary of a CEO? The Diary of a CEO. Yeah. Isn't it interesting? So that's a really popular podcast if you haven't heard of it before. It's this guy named Stephen Bartlett, is it his right name? And he interviews all these CEOs and like girls and like executives and millionaires and billionaires. And that's kind of how his podcast started. But he's been going on a journey.

SPEAKER_11

Stephen Bartlett, the guy who does diary of CEO, he has like 17 million followers. It's a huge show.

SPEAKER_08

Because he was raised in a Christian home. Yes. And I think he's he he said he was an atheist, and now he's at this point where he's just, I'm hoping and I'm praying for a soul.

SPEAKER_14

The undisputed number one, number one Christianity expert in the world is John Lennox, professor emeritus of mathematics at Oxford University, multiple PhDs.

SPEAKER_11

An English gentleman, a very, you know, dignified old English gentleman, delightful, cherubic man named John Lennox. And like I said, he's 82 years old.

SPEAKER_04

He's met C.S. Lewis in person before. Like this dude is a is a is a is an amazing apologist.

SPEAKER_18

Steven over at Diary of a CEO sat down with John Lennox and things got extremely interesting. Diary of a CEO just dropped a banger of an episode with the legendary John Lennox.

SPEAKER_03

The host, Stephen Bartlett, spends well over an hour quizzing and respectfully challenging Professor Lennox on the ideas and claims of Christianity.

SPEAKER_06

And predictably, these big conversations spark a lot of interest from Christian YouTube.

SPEAKER_05

So there's that Irish built in my blood and built in my name. Put your thinking caps on as we dive into this masterpiece of an interview.

SPEAKER_03

And this is not some big gotcha moment.

SPEAKER_16

It's like someone saying, I'm a really fast runner compared to all these very young children over there. There's a lot of wise fools nowadays.

SPEAKER_11

If I can get the delivery correct, if I could fit God in my eight-pound brain, he's not a god worth worshiping.

SPEAKER_15

Well, people start feeling terrible that robots start to uh die. I mean, you see it in movies, they already do that.

SPEAKER_06

We have some dope hoodies for like 50 bucks. And you may recall that Diary of a CEO recently did a complete softball interview with Wes Huff. I interviewed Wesley Huff recently.

SPEAKER_17

Do you know Wesley Huff?

SPEAKER_12

Yes. Yeah, he was the same as Canadian. Wesley's a bright cookie.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. A big shout out to uh Wesley Huff, man. Uh, on a on a on a generational run himself. On a generational run himself. I'm so proud of Wes.

SPEAKER_14

Professor John Lennox is the number one Christianity expert. Uh, I thought actually Wes Huff was the number one Christianity expert, according to the diary of a CEO, but apparently Wes is happy to be the number two, number one Christianity expert.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, this is just amazing. I I had to read this a few times. I'm like, there's no way Wes Huff said what I think he just said here. But look at it. He says, a pleasure today. So Wes Huff says on X, a pleasure today to meet up with Professor John Lennox. Credit to Stephen Bartlett for finding two of the number one Christianity experts, referring to himself. So I read this and I had to read it again, and I had to ask people like, Wes Huff isn't really saying, like, is Wes Huff really posting on the internet that he is the number one Christianity expert?

SPEAKER_14

I mean, you don't really want my opinion. I am the 563rd, 345th number one Christianity expert.

SPEAKER_06

Now, I was recently over on CJ Cornthwaite's channel to discuss this very John Lennox episode in detail as ex-evangelicals. And you'll definitely want to check the description for a link to that full conversation.

SPEAKER_05

All right, my guest today is Pologia, and we're going to do something that I haven't done all that often, but we're going to do a response.

SPEAKER_06

If you've bought into how do I solve the problem of my sin and then are shopping for a solution to that, I don't deny that Christianity is one of the better options if that is the problem you're trying to solve. The trouble is, most people who deconstructed or deconverted land at this question of is there sin? Is this something I need to shop for? And then convince me that that's a problem I have versus you know the late night infomercial. Hey, are you still chopping onions like a schmuck? I'm like, yeah, I am. Like so it's not.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Is this you? But this is more of a reaction to the reactions kind of thing. Maybe. We'll see how it goes. The thing that the Christians were most excited about was not the content of Lennox's message, but rather his demeanor and folksy vibe.

SPEAKER_17

Yeah, he was very much, he gave me the same feeling as you, just like feels like a really happy person, very sort of content-rounded.

SPEAKER_12

Well, there are many of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_17

But it seems to be a trend that you know a lot of the Christian apologists that I've interviewed have that b anchoring that so many of us are looking for.

SPEAKER_12

There's a real sense of that. You know, uh I sit in front of many people, and of course they often ask me questions I don't even understand. But uh in life, uh that piece is very important to me.

SPEAKER_09

John Lennox is an individual that I've been listening to for a long time, many years, and has a has had a profound impact on my life in the demeanor and method of delivery, in the care he has for the people he's talking to. I always tell people, John Lennox, to me, from a distance, and I have friends who've studied with Professor Lennox, and and they say the same thing. To me, he feels like the grandfather I never had. If I were to pick to have a grandfather, it would be like John Lennox. I'd sit next to him and just listen to absolute wisdom from this man.

SPEAKER_14

It was quite a chastening answer, actually, from John Lennox, delivered in the most wonderful grandfatherly tone.

SPEAKER_09

That's Christian maturity, ladies and gentlemen. You and I should be replicating individuals like Dr. John Lennox.

SPEAKER_14

Isn't that brilliant? The best argument for Christianity is drum roll, you, John Lennox, your character, your integrity, your peace. It's interesting that psychologists often talk about a non-anxious presence. John Lennox himself is that non-anxious presence. His life is his testimony. He is a witness. And John Lennox himself is the light. And it's a compelling light and an attractive light.

SPEAKER_04

And so I love that answer. Okay. I love that answer. Now listen to what Stephen says.

SPEAKER_08

Greatest evidence. Evidence of God is actually you, John Lennox. Yeah. I'm like, so sweet. That is how it's supposed to be. Yeah. You know how manners, our the way we talk to them, we l the way we listen, you know. Let's be the that Christian. Yes. Let's not be the I need a point. I need to get my point right. I need to give you the truth. And oh, he's just so sweet. I want to love him. I want to give him a hug. I want him to be my granddaddy.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10

I thought this moment was beautiful. It was almost like a challenge to Stephen Bartlett from John Lennox's life.

SPEAKER_14

And what do you notice about it? It had nothing to do with an argument, a chain of reasoning, an anecdote, a story. Didn't have anything to do with the expertise of John Lennox. John Lennox might be a number one Christianity expert. I think he is the number one, number one Christianity expert. But what is really connecting with Stephen Bartlett has nothing to do with his expertise. It has everything to do with his example.

SPEAKER_06

I don't care about tone or charm. This is no more or less appealing to me than the angry shouting apologists. At this point in my journey, I really just need to be shown the evidence or the arguments. Why should I think that Christianity is true? Not why might it make me feel good? Or are the other people who believe it nice people that I want to hang out with? I don't know that I've ever covered John Lennox because I've always found him just so devoid of substance. For a mathematician, he's shockingly touchy-feely and soft on proof. Not my thing.

SPEAKER_12

We've had pushed at us for too long, a very reductionist view of the world. It's nothing but physics and chemistry. It's nothing but this is that. And people rightly feel it's too small a world to live in.

SPEAKER_06

So the true answer makes some people sad. Okay. That doesn't make the answer wrong. It just means that some people are sad.

SPEAKER_12

They're looking to break out of this. Isn't there a bigger picture that can make sense of my world and make sense of my life and giving some meaning? Because if you reduce everything, it ends up with a black hole of meaninglessness.

SPEAKER_06

Of course, there are many ways of seeing a bigger picture and to give your life meaning, even if the universe is purely material and not supernatural. Maybe I'm weird, but first I want to know what's true. And if we can establish something's true, then we can look at the secondary question of whether I find it personally meaningful, or how to structure personal meaning within what's true.

SPEAKER_12

And that's one of my uh top reasons for not being an atheist, because it destroys rationality by almost by definition. Because it tells me that my brain, which does all the thinking, it's not my mind, it's connected, and those are two different things, and that's another big story.

SPEAKER_06

That has not been demonstrated in any way. But I guess everyone's allowed an opinion.

SPEAKER_12

But this is the end product of a mindless, unguided uh process. And I have fun with scientists, you know. Sometimes I ask them uh about the brain and how it arose, and they tell me something like that, and I said, and you trust it. Tell me, if the computer that you use every day, if you knew it was the end product of a random process, would you trust it? Every single scientist, and some of them are very high powered, that I've asked that question to have said, no, I would not. So I say, you've got a problem, haven't you?

SPEAKER_06

Lennox is right about one thing. We should not blindly trust our brains. Human cognition is full of biases, optical illusions, false memories, and motivated reasoning. One reason we needed to create the process of science is precisely because unaided human intuition is often unreliable. But the fact that cognitive is imperfect does not imply cognition is untrustworthy. Evolution needed only to produce brains that are reliable enough to navigate reality. And the overwhelming success of humans at manipulating and predicting the world is evidence that our cognitive faculties are at least partially truth-tracking. Would I trust a computer that was the end product of a random process? If a billion randomly generated computers were subjected to relentless testing, and only the machines that successfully solved problems survived, then yes, over time I would increasingly trust the survivors. Lennox's analogy leaves out the most important part of evolutionary theory: selection. Randomness supplies the possibilities, but selection determines the outcomes.

SPEAKER_12

And that's my main beef with people like Richard Dawkins and the new atheists, but I see they're fading. They're fading.

SPEAKER_06

They always say new atheism with such scorn. I don't like I don't know what that means. It's it's it's it's like wokeness or like oh, any label you can put on uh a nebulous feeling is if you define new atheists as four individuals, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Daniel Bennett, then yeah, they're fading away in that two of them are deceased. And the remaining two are currently primarily anti-Muslim to an extent that they openly or implicitly align themselves with some right-wing Christian ideology, which makes them less of an existential threat to someone like Lennox. These four men stopped being at the forefront long before I ever even began my deconversion process. So I'm pretty tired of this notion that these four specific men represent the answer to whether gods exist. Shall I enter a discussion with modern apologists complaining that the attendance at Billy Graham rallies is very low and that C.S. Lewis hasn't written anything new in a long time? Therefore, Christianity has lost its relevance? Because that's how new atheism complaints sound.

SPEAKER_12

So here's the irony. Atheism, claiming rationality, destroys it. Whereas I believe the Christian faith also claims rationality in the sense that evidence-based, we shout about that a lot in science and medicine, and rightly so. What we trust in ought to be evidence-based. I claim exactly the same thing for Christianity. And that's why I'm a Christian, because I believe the evidence supports it. Otherwise, I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_06

If that's the case, you decided not to bring evidence today. In fact, despite the fact that Stephen was repeatedly, openly inviting you to provide the evidence you claim to have.

SPEAKER_17

There's many things you said about the nature of Christianity and religion that I go, amazing, yes, yes, yes. And then there's a couple of things I go, ooh, well, mm. Uh and the same when I sit here with a physicist that's telling me about the Big Bang.

SPEAKER_12

Yes.

SPEAKER_17

I have the same thing where I'm going, yes, yes, of course, yes. Oh, we've got evidence that the universe is expanding. Okay, mate. And then they'll say other things and I go, Well, that's not complete. And so I find myself sat on the fence. I would love you to convince me. I mean, it's not your responsibility to do so, but where does that journey of of believing begin for someone like me? If I could choose that, if I could press a button and have it, I would have it. But there's this other part of my brain which will naturally interrogate whether it's real or it's true. You're absolutely right. It still leaves me with a question about whether it's true. And this is the sort of central question that I need to find my way over. Yeah, I agree with you. Absolutely. How do you know that this thing you've committed yourself to and you've believed and you know talked about for 70 years of your life is true?

SPEAKER_06

And could it be the case that it's not true? Steven had to keep trying to drag the conversation back to the lack of evidence so often I was getting embarrassed for Lennox's inability to answer. Instead, what we got was 90 minutes of evading the question.

SPEAKER_12

Jacob Ace of Actor. Now, I know that there are hard problems round the edge here. There are really hard problems. That doesn't answer your question. It's a question I ask often. We have had these arguments and debates. A good God and an all-powerful God would, could, should, all this kind of stuff. And we never get a satisfactory answer to that. That's a hard question. We'll never understand it or solve it. It doesn't answer a question, but it gives you motivation. Now that's not an answer. There are no simplistic answers here. I suspect I can't prove this to you. Well, you can't answer that. What do you make of it? I don't think we're gonna find out.

SPEAKER_17

I don't know. I feel like I'm wired to try I try and have to solve these fucking problems, these big questions. I have to like figure them out.

SPEAKER_01

See, this guy really wants the answers, or he's pretending. I don't know if he does or not. Maybe this is all for show and it's all for clicks. He seems to genuinely be asking. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But then he keeps bringing on guys like Wes Huff and John Lennox, who are clearly not giving him the answers. I mean, he's saying that. Like, well, you say you don't know. I mean, you're the Bible expert. I mean, Wes Huff just said, remember at the beginning that ex post, Wes Huff claims that himself and this other guy are the number one experts in Christianity. And this guy interviewing them openly acknowledges like you guys just aren't giving me the answers.

SPEAKER_17

These big questions I have to like figure them out, or they'll just sit there causing increasingly more confusion, which pops me right on that agnostic fence.

SPEAKER_12

Yes, I would encourage you to concentrate on the one that you think is most important, one at a time.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so he says, you know, after all this, I just want the answer. I just want the answer, but it's just more confusion. And Lennox is like, yeah, well, whatever you think is the most important question, yeah, just search after that. Uh wouldn't that wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity to tell him what the most important thing is? The gospel, maybe?

SPEAKER_06

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who's embarrassed at this display from John, though Michael and the other Christians had plenty of complaints.

SPEAKER_01

John Lennox, unfortunately, is really going to muddy the water about hell and salvation and what the Bible teaches. Like, you know, you really can't know.

SPEAKER_16

But some of the answers that Lennox was giving, Stephen wasn't satisfied with, saying that this is what pushes him to agnosticism. I actually wasn't happy with some of these answers as well that Lennox was giving. I appreciate what he does for the Lord, but I think we as Christians need to be better on answering these particular questions.

SPEAKER_17

So going back to this question I asked about good people, living a good life, it it it seems to be the case that the Bible suggests that if you don't believe in God, even if you lived a good life, you go to hell. And hell is described as not a nice place. So I I was thinking about the most kind person I know that's lived her life to be unbelievable, passed away. She didn't believe. Does that mean she's in hell? Well, you can't answer that.

SPEAKER_01

Instead of just telling him what the Bible says, uh Lennox replies and says, Well, you know, you you you just can't know. I don't know. I mean, you can't know that. And Bartlett responds, he said, Yeah, but the Bible tells us, right? No, no, no. So he's he just kind of ignores that. So he number one problem, he says, you can't know whether someone believes in Christ or they don't believe in Christ. Does that not believing in Jesus, not re you know, rejecting the gospel? That sends people to hell. Well, you you can't know that. Really? This guy's an expert on Christianity, so he's gonna muddy the water further. What is what I think what are you implying there, sorry?

SPEAKER_12

Well, what I'm implying there is that we paint hell as something ogre-like, uh God stuffing and demon stuffing uh bodies into hell, when actually I think Lewis got it right here, you know, when he talks about this.

SPEAKER_01

He's gonna do exactly what Wes Huff did when Wes Huff was on this podcast, exchanging the doctrine of Christ, because we all know what Jesus taught. If you don't believe in Jesus, if you don't trust the gospel, you're going to hell. But this guy either doesn't believe that or he says, You can't possibly know that. And then he gets into this thing. Well, hey, let's forget. Again, Wes Huff did the same thing on the podcast. Let's ignore what Jesus said, what the Bible says. Uh, let's see what C.S. Lewis said. You know, C.S. Lewis really had it correct. So let's ignore Jesus in favor of C. S. Lewis. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_12

Hell is absence of God, and it's chosen. If a person doesn't want God in their life, and I've known people like that, and they choose it, God will give them what they chose. Otherwise, God is going to have to force his way into their lives and they don't want him.

SPEAKER_01

The Bible never says that anywhere, but he's exchanging the doctrine of Christ for the doctrine of Clive Staples, C.S. Lewis. Uh, the Bible doesn't teach that hell is the absence of God. Matter of fact, Revelation 14 tells us that they're tormented in the presence of God, the the holy angels and the lamb. So, but he's going to quote C. S. Lewis to really kind of uh downplay hell.

SPEAKER_16

There is a trend amongst Christians on downplaying what hell is like, and they get this from C. S. Lewis, which I don't think is right. We get our theology from the Bible, not from Lewis. And we see that they describe hell as just absence of God. Now it's true that those who go to hell are absent from God's love and kindness. But not complete absence from God. In fact, the worst thing about hell is that you're in the very presence of his justice. Those in hell will wish that God wasn't there, that his wrath wasn't being poured out upon them. He mentions that people choose to go there themselves. I don't think that's accurate. Only in the sense of people choose to sin, sure. But do people voluntarily choose to say I would want to go to hell? The answer is no. Just like when a criminal breaks the law, does he choose to say, I want to go to prison? Yes, send me to prison, please. No, he wants to get away from prison. In fact, that's why they try and do everything to escape getting caught. And even in the court date, they try and minimize the sentence. We would all do that in a sense, right? If you were brought to court, you're not going to tell the judge, judge, I want the maximum penalty, please. I want the max, don't minimize it. No leniency, please. You don't do that because none of us want punishment. And so those who are going to be sent to hell are not going to be like, yes, I'm going to hell. That's what I want. That's my choice. No, they're going to be thrown there against their will.

SPEAKER_12

What scripture reveals is a very interesting thing, that the only people to whom Jesus talked about hell were religious bigots who were in danger of it. He didn't talk about it to ordinary folks who were struggling with believing and trusting God and all the rest. That's point number one.

SPEAKER_16

Now, this wasn't a helpful answer by John Lennox because it's not true that Jesus only spoke about hell to religious bigots. He spoke about hell to crowds. Think of the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus says, whoever says you fool will be liable to the hell of fire. And he's not just speaking to religious bigots here, he's speaking to crowds, which would include not just his disciples, but others as well. Or another example in the very next chapter. Jesus says, the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there'll be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Now he's speaking here to his disciples and others, he's just seeing a centurion express great faith in him, and he's marveled at that man's faith. And so he's not uniquely speaking to the religious leaders at this point in time.

SPEAKER_12

And it it seems to me that the one example in the New Testament of a person who did not live a good life and neglected the poor around him and ended in that place, there is no evidence that he wanted out of it. What he said was, please send Abram to my brothers, that they don't come to this place. There's no indication that he wanted out of it. And I think this is a grim reality here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so this is the rich man and Lazarus, and of course, presumably the reason why the rich man was not begging to get out of Hades or hell is that he knew it's permanent, like you can't get out. I mean, that passage even says that. So, but how does this answer the question? How does any of this clear up this guy's question? Again, Stephen Bartlett, I guess he's an agnostic. He's asking all these, you know, top experts about Christianity, supposedly, clear questions like, hey, if I don't believe in Jesus, if someone doesn't believe in Jesus, then they're going to hell. And then you get, you know, five minutes of humming and hawing and tiptoeing around the question, how is this helpful? It's not.

SPEAKER_16

If there was a way for him not to be under the anguish, he would long for it. But we see that Abraham describes as a great big chasm between heaven and hell. No one could pass between the two places. And that's why he says, Well, can you at least warn my brothers not to come here? And we see a picture of this in Proverbs 1. When people have ignored God's word and his wisdom, it says, Because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof, I also will laugh at your calamity. I will mock when terror strikes you. Look at the reaction. God's saying, Fine, you rejected my truth. I'm now going to laugh and mock when that terror comes upon you. When terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you, and have a look at the next verse. Then they will call upon me and I will not answer. They will seek me diligently, but will not find me, because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. You see, it's going to be too late. Even if someone in hell is like, Can I get out? Is there a way for me to forgive forgiven? It's too late then.

SPEAKER_12

We can argue about cases like that all the time. Neither of us is God. And the way God deals with these people, after all, next to Christ on the cross were two thieves. Well, they were terrorists, actually. They'd both murdered, apparently.

SPEAKER_01

The Bible says they were a thief. Um now they're terrorists. I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_06

I cannot express how shallow and vapid this hell is locked from the inside claim is to a non-resistant non-believer. If, after I die, I'm given the definitive knowledge that a creator god exists, I'm gonna be immediately convinced and be all in for team creator. It's not that I don't want to believe or want to obstinately hold on to some sin. I'm just unconvinced. The idea that such a person would stomp their feet and stay in hell out of spite is just ridiculous. If hell ends up being a place I can leave any time, then neat. Then this life really had no purpose, did it?

SPEAKER_12

But we've got to face the fact that there are differences. My Jewish friends believe that Jesus died and did not rise. My Muslim friends believed he didn't die. I believe he both died and rose. Those three things cannot be simultaneously true.

SPEAKER_17

Aaron Ross Powell But when I look at the stats here, data shows that devout Muslims and a devout Hindu get the exact same psychological meaning boost and sense of peace as a devout Christian. Well, how do you measure that? Well, they ask them, does your life more meaningful in sometimes um I've got one particular friend who's part of his c you know uh evidence that what he believes is true is the feeling he got when he started believing it.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, well, but the data suggests that if it is true, a positive feeling would reinforce that, of course, but it doesn't prove it in the end.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, John Lennox from late in the interview who says that a positive feeling doesn't prove anything. I wish you could talk some sense into the John Lennox from earlier in the interview, who thinks that positive feelings and experiences prove Christianity.

SPEAKER_12

Christianity, to me, doesn't compete with any anything else. Because Christ offers me something nobody else offers me. Nobody else offers me peace, the peace of knowing that I have real forgiveness, the peace of knowing that I have a friend and a companion to whom I can talk all the time. That's been so meaningful in my life. But I have had several experiences of what I can only put down to direct divine guidance, and I record them in the book.

SPEAKER_17

And then how do you know that this thing you've committed yourself to is true?

SPEAKER_12

So I have had several experiences enough to tell me, look, this stuff is real. Give people a real basis for hope that transcends this world. And the only place I know where to find that is in Christ and in Christianity.

SPEAKER_06

That all sounds like an argument from positive feelings.

SPEAKER_12

A positive feeling would reinforce that, of course, but doesn't prove it in the end. Aaron Ross Powell Exactly.

SPEAKER_17

It is statistically the case that the more hopeless your life becomes, the higher the probability you have of turning to a religion. And also if you're having a crisis of meaning in your life for whatever reason, I looked at some of the data and it does show that's absolutely right.

SPEAKER_12

And that's what you'd expect if there if it's true, at least to a certain extent, it gives people something outside themselves. That's simple psychology, I would have thought. Simple psychology. But it doesn't prove the truth or it doesn't prove the truth.

SPEAKER_17

Because what if I believe in the dragon at the bottom of the garden or the spaghetti monster. And it seems to be the case that really irrespective of which religion you that you know fills that you know place in your life, you still get the same boost in meaning.

SPEAKER_06

Yep. Yet another reason I'm disinterested in arguments from utility. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_12

And if your good deeds tip over the bad deeds, then you get into whatever it is, heaven, nirvana, all the rest of it. That's religion. It's not Christianity, though many people think it is. Because if you ask them, are you a Christian, they say, Well, I do my best and I hope that God will be kind. That isn't Christianity. It's the exact opposite of Christianity.

SPEAKER_11

Okay. So it goes on, and it's really something that you really need to look at. John Lynx basically said you're never going to get the you're never going to get the answer that'll satisfy your brain and your intellect or your uh that will knock down your pride or your resistance to it. Because you're not going to be able to fit an infinite God in your nine-pound brain or whatever how ever much our brain is.

SPEAKER_00

Jerry, do you know the human head weighs eight pounds?

SPEAKER_11

If I could fit God in my eight-pound brain, he's not a God worth worshiping. If I can understand God fully, to my satisfaction, have enough proof or evidence or whatever you want to call it, then he's not worth my worship.

SPEAKER_06

No one's asking for every answer about God, but if God designed our brain, he could have made it capable of at least awareness of the existence of God. I don't know everything about how my car works, but I know that cars exist. That seems in line with something God could do. In fact, it's the bare minimum if he wants to have a relationship with us.

SPEAKER_11

I think that the key is the word surrender. Um most people uh can't see that there's enough logic and reason. And and really, uh, John Lennox is not giving a lot of scientific evidence for God, but he's giving all kinds of logic and reason. There's a very reasonable you know, evidentiary. It is evident. I don't know if there's a lot of scientific hardcore evidence for God, but there's it's very evident to us that there is something, uh there is has to be a beginning to everything. Everything has been in the beginning was the word, and we are all DNA-based, which is a series of numbers and letters, it's a word uh from God. Uh there is a design to it. Um, why why wouldn't we think that? Well, it's because we really can't surrender.

SPEAKER_06

Sorry, Joel. It has nothing to do with surrender. I was already surrendered as a Christian when I started looking into this. I'll go back to surrender today if I become convinced. It's precisely the lack of evidence that is the problem. And for some reason, is explicitly not a problem for you. You literally just laid out that there's no evidence, but your intuition tells you so. I hate to tell you this, but your intuition is not a reliable way of knowing something.

SPEAKER_11

We've made gods of ourselves. I have loved ones in this very same situation, several of them family and friends. That it just wouldn't even occur to them to actually say, Oh, that's nice that you believe that, but they wouldn't, you know, dare step out of themselves and take the act of surrendering their will and putting faith, you know, having that step forward earlier in this interview. Um John Lennox said, you know, if to Stephen Bartlett, if I told you there was a red Ferrari outside for you that I've driven here and given to you, you wouldn't actually believe that until you've gone to look for yourself. You have to step out of yourself. You have to again surrender.

SPEAKER_12

I could say, uh Stephen Bartlett, there's a red Ferrari parked the straight outside.

SPEAKER_17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_12

And it's yours if you want to take it.

SPEAKER_04

We can I know, I know. I'm not trying to hype him up, but this is this is a great point. This is a great point. Hey, you can receive said gift, but you have to want to go and explore and see and investigate if said gift is outside. That's fire.

SPEAKER_12

You could sit and discuss it for a thousand years. You would never know whether I was true or not unless you went and looked.

SPEAKER_06

Are you under the impression that skeptics haven't gone to see if the promised Ferrari is outside? I think for my journey, I was. I spent decades sitting around the table, assuming there's a Ferrari, but then when I went to go check the parking spot where they said it was gonna be, there was no car there. Right? So I'm not sure why this would resonate with anyone. And I a lot of this is I'm not even sure who John is thinks he's talking to. Yeah. Because if there is a Ferrari, let's go see the Ferrari. Yeah, I agree. Why let's not talk about it at the table. God is not a Ferrari in a parking spot waiting to be noticed. God is the promise that one day after you die, you'll totally get a Ferrari that you can't see now, but definitely exists. This sounds more like an email scam than a plan of salvation.

SPEAKER_12

The word skeptic is a very interesting one. I regard myself as a skeptic, but in Greek, skeptime means to look at something from a distance.

SPEAKER_06

I don't speak ancient Greek, but I don't think Lennox does either. I can find no evidence in standard Greek lexicons that the verb skeptimi means to look at something from a distance. It means to examine, investigate, or consider. Historically, a skeptic isn't someone who stays distant from claims, it's someone who investigates them carefully before accepting them.

SPEAKER_12

If you are ever going to get to know a person, you've got to begin to give up your distance.

SPEAKER_04

You oh man, if you're going to get to know a person, you're gonna have to give up your distance, i.e., you're gonna have to be willing to move towards relationship, towards the person. If Jesus is who he says he is, if he really is God of the universe stepping into flesh, you have to be willing to move towards him and take baby steps. And that's basically what John Lennox takes as conversation.

SPEAKER_12

You will know that from everyday life. And it seems to me one of the things to try to begin to grasp is God is not a proposition or a philosophy or even a religion. God is a person.

SPEAKER_02

Don't you just love what is being said here? The richness coming from John. All Stephen has to do is search, seek, knock. That is what he has to do. Genuinely search for truth. Search the scriptures day and night, and it will be revealed to you. We need to be praying that Stephen will begin to be drawn to the scriptures, drawn to Christ, drawn to the truth that is found in God's beautiful word.

SPEAKER_13

God has very clearly chosen to interact with humanity in this way, where to those who desire more will be given, and to those who remain, you know, unconvinced or unpersuaded or at that kind of cold, comfortable distance, um, that is a legitimate option as well. But I I love this analogy that Linux is giving here of the red Ferrari that we could talk about for a thousand years, but it's not until you actually walk towards it that you'll get some real first-hand knowledge about it. Once you have known and interacted with God through his word, through his spirit, um, it is undeniable. I just don't know how else to say it. It the theoretical becomes real, and God not only in his existence or his um matter-of-factness.

SPEAKER_06

This is the same advice like dress for the job you want or fake it till you make it. It's like, well, if you start why don't you just hold Jesus' hand for a while and maybe you'll learn to like each other. Yeah, I guess it's not uh it's it's good advice for maybe your career, but it's not great advice for for choosing a uh a partner, be it spiritual or real.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. And I mean people like the irony is I think I think people do can join religions and find tremendous meaning in them. But like if you're hoping that by joining a religion you're going to find out that this is true at the like at the expense of everything else in the world and every other way of being human and other like all the things I believe are true and nothing anybody else believes is true, you know, it kind of becomes like like surely you can see that's confirmation bias, but I don't know, like it's just it's really difficult to it's difficult to not see through this, I think.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and and Steven mentioned it up front, was like, I would love for this to be true. Like there are a lot of people for whom Christianity sounds cool, so the objection isn't that we think that we're immediately saying this is a terrible idea and I want nothing to do with it. Uh and again, I think John's shtick doesn't apply to that person very well. Yeah. Next up, Lennox will completely misunderstand Stephen's objection about geography.

SPEAKER_17

I've got some um some of the questions that really stumped me when I was so I was I was Christian up until the age of about 18. And then I went into the whole like new atheist movement with Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and that little phase of my life. But one of the stats that used to get me when I went through that new atheist movement was that globally, 91% of adults simply adopt and keep the religion they were raised in. And if a person is born into a Hindi or Muslim household, there is a 99% statistical probability they will remain in that faith. Only 1% switch out. And then the argument, I think it came from Dawkins or someone else, was that is it fair that there's this birth lottery determining who ends up believing what, or theoretically getting into hell or heaven?

SPEAKER_06

Yes.

SPEAKER_17

Because if I was born in, I don't know, Afghanistan, the probability says I'd probably be Muslim. Yeah, well, I I take that. Absolutely. So God gave you an advantage in this context because he he he allowed you to be born his in his all-knowing, all uh understanding way, put you to be born in a place where you were likely to be Christian.

SPEAKER_06

Notice that Stephen didn't accuse John of just blindly accepting whatever religion was most popular in his region. Stephen is objecting that because people in general accept whatever religion is popular in their region, that means that Christian God isn't giving everyone an equal chance to say yes. And that some who say yes are doing so purely out of circumstance and not merit, which again seems unfair from a God who allegedly loves everyone.

SPEAKER_12

Sounds to me as if he gave the same advantage to you. So the question is, what do we do with that privilege?

SPEAKER_14

It was quite a chastening answer, actually, from John Lennox, delivered in the most wonderful grandfatherly tone. And John Lennox is absolutely right. What are we going to do with what we do know? We can get caught up in all kinds of speculation for what about those who don't know very much? Ultimately, we we just have to trust Jesus with stuff we don't know. But before we consider what about those people who know very little, John Lennox is absolutely right, putting his finger on the conscience and on the conscience of Stephen and saying, what will you do with what you know? And he says that in the context of a heck of a lot of affirmation of Stephen, and and quite rightly so. He's saying, Stephen, you appear to be an earnest seeker, and that is good. And keep on pulling at those threads, but you must continue to ask that question, what am I doing with what I do know? Before I consider what will people do who know less than me, I need to figure out what will I do with all that I know? Brilliant answer. Not aimed at the intellect, aimed at the conscience. And that was moment number one that really landed with Stephen. Landed with Stephen.

SPEAKER_06

Well, Glenn, do you have insight into his brain? Because at the end, Stephen will tell us what resonated with him. And it wasn't a tug of conscience.

SPEAKER_12

People always stay in the religion in which they're brought up, you see. When I next got a chance to speak, I said, Peter, I told the audience about my Christian background, but you said nothing about yours. Now tell me, were your parents atheists? He said they were. Oh, I said then you remained in the faith in which you were brought up. John is missing the point.

SPEAKER_06

This is a critique about fairness, how God isn't giving everyone the same opportunity for salvation. But instead, John will avoid the question with one of his many tales of owning someone in a debate. Why do all the old guard apologists think we care about some dude they totally owned if we accept their biased recollection of a decades-old conversation?

SPEAKER_12

Oh, but he said it isn't a faith. And I said, Peter, I was I was convinced that you believed it. And it brought the house down, of course. This the cyberspace went mad. And the point was made repeatedly all over the internet.

SPEAKER_05

I've been listening to these arguments for 20 or 30 years now. You know, and it's like, what does it do? Like I I heard John Lennox speak, he was at a conference. I was at once and probably around the year 2000. And he was saying the same stuff. And it's like it hasn't changed. And it's not like it needs to, it's not like the message needs to change or anything. But like it's the same war stories. It's the same like kind of gotcha moments that he was just so smart and everyone was amazed. And everybody clapped. And everybody clapped. And everybody thought that I was the best.

SPEAKER_12

Here's one of the world's top philosophers. They doesn't understand that his atheism is a belief system.

SPEAKER_05

I would say, like, if somebody studied religion, is like who says religion is belief, even? Like that's such a Christian way of framing religion, and even more so a Protestant Christian way of framing religion. So like to turn around and say atheism is a religion because you believe things, it's like, well, why is religion believing things? Because not all religions have core beliefs, or you know, I mean, I guess there's things people think is true, but like it's the Protestant obsession to be like propositional belief. That's what matters. And atheism is not, as far as I can tell, is not a propositional belief in the same way. It's an negation. So anyway.

SPEAKER_06

And this is also one of those things it's like, well, Frank Turk, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist, is literally the name of his podcast. It's like, are you trying to say that faith is bad? Frank? Like you're you're you atheists are just as bad as we are, is a weird argument. Yeah. And possibly most disturbing were John's horrific insights on both divine and marital relationships.

SPEAKER_12

The irony of all this is that we would never, at least I don't know, and some people might, but in a human relationship, we don't base our affection and relationship with someone on the basis of their merit. I have a little analogy I use that sometimes tickles people's minds. I say that I met a beautiful girl on my second day at Cambridge. I'd been warned she might be there, and she was, sitting in church. And I decided that I'd like to marry her.

SPEAKER_06

So This instant marriage decision happens a lot at Bible colleges, because, you know, no sex until wedding day.

SPEAKER_12

I bought the most expensive cookery book I could. And uh I came and I handed it to her, and she said, What's that? Well, I said, you know, we have a interesting tradition in our family, you see. Uh, and if anybody gets married, they give the potential bride a cookbook. Why? Well, look at page 152. Here's the the laws for making an apple cake, and I like apple cake.

SPEAKER_06

You're somehow making me want to eat an apple cake, even though I don't know what that is. That sounds delicious.

SPEAKER_12

No, I said it's going to be like this. If you keep those rules for the next, let's be generous, 40 years or so, I will accept you. Otherwise, you can go back to your mother. Now, when I say that to an audience, they rock about with laughter.

SPEAKER_05

And everybody clapped. And everybody and everybody thought that I was the best.

SPEAKER_12

But it's exactly the way many of them have been taught to think about God. Keep the rules as best as you can and hope that God is generous. When actually, I did no such thing. I've given my wife several cookbooks, but they're not the basis of the relationship. And because the relationship is based on acceptance that comes at the start of the common journey, it sets her free to live and do other things that she wants to do.

SPEAKER_06

John comes from religion that says that a man must have domain over his woman the way God has domain over people. For John, all relationships have a justified power imbalance. So he sees no problem with what he's saying. John is bragging about how, while it would be in his rights to punish his wife for making imperfect apple cake, he benevolently chooses not to.

SPEAKER_12

He even lets her have hobbies. See how nice he is? And I have noticed often that once people begin to realize that they're beginning to understand a basic concept, which is grace, that God does everything. And if we trust him, he it is that gives us a certainty.

SPEAKER_06

No, actual relationships have power balance. This God is some kind of sugar daddy. And the cost of being a kept person is blind, exclusive loyalty. He is, after all, a self-proclaimed, jealous God. We are worthless trash that God will pick up from the street and dress up nice and set us up with an apartment, and all we have to do is look pretty and say, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_12

So it's not arrogance to accept it from him. It's arrogance actually to reject and say, oh no, no, I'll go my own way and I'll try my best and hope that you will accept me.

SPEAKER_06

It is impossible for me to reject someone until I'm convinced they exist. John is skipping over step one. The bare minimum requirement for me to reject anyone is to be aware of them.

SPEAKER_12

The heart of the Christian message, which I believe is there, is that the trust is based on what someone else has done, what Christ has done, not what I have done.

SPEAKER_06

Well, if it doesn't depend on me doing anything, I guess I'll be good on judgment day. Since believing and accepting and participating in the relationship would all entail me doing something.

SPEAKER_17

John, thank you. One of the um one of the most compelling uh arguments for uh God that you've presented and your way of seeing the world and being is not actually necessarily anything you've written in your books or not necessarily anything you've said. It is it is actually you. And uh you you you have a certain peace and contentment that I uh rarely see in people that I interview, but I often see, and I've almost always seen in the Christians that I've interviewed.

SPEAKER_06

Translation. Nothing you've said here today is remotely compelling or convincing, but you seem nice, and it's nice to be nice. But I'm already nice, so thanks for coming. And do you know another number one Christianity expert I can talk to? Thanks for watching, and don't forget to check out my detailed conversation with CJ Cornthwaite, digging you to more of this diary of a CEO conversation with John Lennox. Tap on the thumbnail on screen now, and I'll see you over there. Until next time. Later.