In the second half of the season finale, Brian and Keith touch on education, the uptick in support for the Justice for Keith Lamar campaign, redemption and friendship.
Some resources to support Keith Lamar:
Keith LaMar's website
Follow Keith on Twitter
Keith on Facebook
Follow Keith on Instagram
Keith's Native Sons Literacy Project
on vurbl: https://vurbl.com/station/1V2lr9dxBXW/
In the second half of the season finale, Brian and Keith touch on education, the uptick in support for the Justice for Keith Lamar campaign, redemption and friendship.
Some resources to support Keith Lamar:
Keith LaMar's website
Follow Keith on Twitter
Keith on Facebook
Follow Keith on Instagram
Keith's Native Sons Literacy Project
on vurbl: https://vurbl.com/station/1V2lr9dxBXW/
Hi. I’m Brian Jackson.
In this podcast, which is really about survival – both spiritual and emotional– we look at the lies we are uncovering and the truths we are constantly discovering that help us to extract the splinters of society from our minds. This podcast is about music, justice and everything in between. This is Pieces of a Man.
Welcome to Pieces of a Man; I'm Brian Jackson, one-half of the duo Gil Scott Heron and Brian Jackson and along with co-host Keith LaMar, we look in on music and justice in America and the intricate relationship they share.
Keith is calling in from death row at the Ohio State Penitentiary, in solitary confinement for over 27 years, convicted, while in prison, for crimes several witnesses have testified he did not commit.
Because of the COVID lockdown protocols due to the high rate of prison guard infections, it's not easy to get Keith out of his cell to use the landline phone that yields much better sound quality for our podcast. At first, we thought we’d just wait it out and see if we could schedule enough time to get a quick episode in but it became more and more apparent that if we were going to be able to close this season out, we were going to have to go with the mobile phone. So, Keith barricaded his cell with as much sound-absorbent material as he could and we went on with it. It definitely helped a little but the combination of the poor quality of the phone’s mic and the prison Wi-Fi signal it transmits and receives over was going to be impossible to overcome. And at the same time, some of the reasons why we were forced to record under those circumstances became the subject matter for these episodes
It made sense in that context, for Keith to open up about his life in prison. We left the conversation largely unedited in hopes that his rawness helps to convey some of the stark realities that Keith faces. So please accept our apologies for the sound. A transcript will be made available in the show notes along with links to Keith’s webpage, social media pages and his Native Sons literacy project.
Thank you for listening.
We pick up where we left off in Episode 7:
KEITH: There's too much hypocrisy built into it.
BRIAN: It's maddening, man, then you –
KEITH: And in here you see that hypocrisy – yeah, it's maddening. That's the only word for it.
BRIAN: and you want to bring your kids into it? That’s the thing that...
PRISON ID MESSAGE
I struggle with the ways that this system uses to indoctrinate the next generation constantly. Having young children of my own, obviously you have to be in the world – but not of it. And it's a difficult thing to teach, man. With peer pressure and the media. Yeah.
It's difficult, partly because it's mandated. That you have to turn your children over to them at five years old. “Bring them to us.” It’s a law
BRIAN: (Laughs) “Bring them to us.”
KEITH: But I'm telling you – I'm speaking for myself, as someone who doesn't have children but as someone who has learned quite a bit from my mistakes- I would never turn my children over to this system.
They don't even teach your children, you know, real history. The only thing they teach that has any basis in reality is how to add and subtract because that's the only thing they give a damn about, you know
You come through all of those years, Brian, of education, quote/unquote and you have no idea what it means to be a human being.
BRIAN: No, they don’t teach you anything about that.
KEITH: I mean we're still having talks about how to be an anti-racist.
You know what I mean? It's absurd man. I'm talking about, you know, I'm in my 40s before I even learn or hear about reconstruction. And as a black man, you're supposed to hear about the era immediately following emancipation, where they created “black codes,” to in fact, re-entrap black people, and particularly black men back into slavery...
ONE-MINUTE WARNING
... to rent us out to various corporations for free labor and whatnot.
There’s a book called, “Slavery by Another Name,” that talks about it. You’re supposed to know that! And then, if you have this knowledge, then you also will have the power to resist the lures that, you know, entrap you again.
You know I was just telling people this is like a circus man. And you know at the circus they have them little games where you try to get the teddy bear for your sweetheart? All you gotta do is knock them eight bottles off the table.
BRIAN: But it's fixed! You'll never do it.
KEITH: So you end up paying $200 for a teddy bear that costs $5 right you know what I mean?
And it's the same thing we end up doing; you give up your life for a Mercedes-Benz; you give up your life for, you know, this fake reputation, you know what I mean? And it's all a gimmick, man – but you don't know that, because you’re just going into the world...
PRISON AUTOMATIC DISCONNECT
BRIAN: I want to focus a little bit more on the campaign to raise money for your legal representation. Or, as you correctly call it, “to buy your freedom.” Explain a little bit about the best way to contribute – and why.
KEITH: This is another little bit of information I learned this morning about change.org-– so it's 160,000 people
BRIAN: ...right
KEITH: And they send the emails- my family has donated $50, $60 to this place, right? Alright, what's done is done. So, we're going to set it up, but we’re going and engage with 160,000 people. Come to find out, change.org won't give us their emails, you hear me?
BRIAN: oh
KEITH: So we’re like “what?” and they say "yeah, we can't give out the emails because we don't know if y'all might run a scam and then it would reflect badly on our business," right?
So, you know that's 160,000 but – so now we put a notice on the page embedded in the thing to let people know if you'd like to be involved in my campaign personally to go to my website. And so, 10,000 people had already done that. That's still a lot of people.
BRIAN: That's a lot of people. But yeah, but it's not 160,000 people.
KEITH: You know $20 apiece that's $200,000, right 'cause it's just two dollars – 200,000.
$20 is 200,000, – 10,000 times 20, – if my math is right... if they educated me right (laughs)
BRIAN: While we’re talking about that: Let's give everybody the information – the correct information, as to where they can where they can get in touch with you, where they can contribute, where they can get more information.
Shoot.
KEITH: Well, the primary place that people can get in touch with me is on my website, keithlamar.org, justiceforkeithlamar on Facebook and Instagram.
But once you go to keithlamar.org or Justice for Keith LaMar, you'll find all the information that you need to view the video, to order the book, to contribute to the merch store that Amy is running to, kind of raise money for funds – so everything that you need to get engaged in my situation is there for you.
That's where the work has already been done at and that's the good thing about the campaign is that, you know, everybody has contributed in their own way their own individual way to put together this foundation.
So yeah, you know the change.org petition has been great; unfortunately, we don't have access to the 160,000 people who signed the petition because change.org, as it turns out, won't supply us with those emails. I guess it's a form of self-protection; they don’t want people to be able to run scams and scam people or whatever the case may be.
But over 10,000 people shared their email address on my website so we're asking people to follow up and do that and share that website, share that information with other people and so that we can kind of keep the ball rolling, keep the momentum rolling.
I's just the nature of this system, everything is monetized, commodified and, you know, buying your freedom is no different, man, you know. You just gotta play the game, as degrading as it is, as unseemly as it is, because human beings reduced to a price tag is already in and of itself is a degradation.
But, OK I'm being degraded anyway. You know what I mean?
BRIAN: We all are. In this system.
KEITH: We all are.
BRIAN: But you to a greater extent, you know. Yeah
KEITH: ...and that's a part of it
BRIAN: But I just want to say that - I just want to once again encourage those who are listening – not only to interact with Keith – I mean, following that same thread, Keith – I encourage people to visit keithlamar.org, to go on Instagram and Facebook; follow Keith on those platforms because of the fact that the more followers that you have, the more visible you are to those who look at these things and make decisions about who to get behind. So that's also a big part of it...
KEITH: And not only that- yeah that's a big part of it, but the more people who are paying attention to your situation, the less likely the people in here will remove you from participating in that outreach.
BRIAN: Good point.
KEITH: You know, when 160,000 people sign a petition, that kind of sends a signal through the system. And I was expecting some kind of adverse reaction from the people who run this place; to kind of put me in the hole or...
Then when I started thinking about it that wouldn't be too smart to do that because 160,000 people is 160,000 people. That's 160,000 people potentially calling the phone. 160,000 people writing letters.
So you don't really want to poke at that, if you're on this end of it. And so, the more people who are engaged in my situation, the less harm that could come to me.
BRIAN: It helps to protect you, yeah. In a weird way, it helps to protect you.
KEITH: It helps to protect me. In a weird...
PRISON ID MESSAGE
Now, mind you, with that comes a responsibility. I have to make sure that I'm doing the things that I'm supposed to do on this end and I want to assure people that that is the case.
I'm not doing anything untoward, not dealing in drugs, not manufacturing any weapons or threatening anybody or doing anything that could jeopardize the support that's going on in my life. You know, because that would be foolish.
BRIAN: That’s important to note.
KEITH: I'll be 52 years old – yeah that's yeah, that's important to note because I'm in a situation where it could all of a sudden be said that, “hey we found a knife in his cell” or, “hey he's smuggling drugs” – or anything, but you know, going back to the math – they taught you how to do math, do the math! Why would I, with less than three years away from a supposed execution date, why would I – and you know I have friends and family, I'm one of the fortunate ones. I don't want for anything in here in terms of material things. I have food to eat, I have warm clothes to put on to protect me against the elements and whatnot. My family made sure of that. Plus, I'm 52 years old. I know the game. I know selling drugs is a trap. So I don't do that. I know that threatening these people is futile; they have the weapons – I don't. You know what I mean?
So any of those things, if you hear any of those things about me, it's a lie, Brian, it's a lie, man, you know?
BRIAN: I already know.
KEITH: Yeah. I'm not gonna do anything to jeopardize the circle of love that’s surrounding me right now. I have an obligation and I take seriously that obligation, man.
BRIAN: Well you know we all love you and we all trust you. And we know you. Yeah.
KEITH: And that's another reason why to read the website, to read the book: Get to know me. I know it's expected for people to judge people that's in my situation, but I don't shy away from my placement of things. You know I took somebody's life. I was selling drugs; this person lived in that world where all these things were going on and unfortunately both of us lost our lives as a result. I admitted to, owned up to what I did and I paid the price for what I did – willingly.
BRIAN: You did your time for that.
KEITH: I literally paid the price. I got 31 years in, going on 32 years I've been in prison. And I think more important than that is what I've done over the past several decades in my life.
After I finally found my way back to myself, what I've been trying to do to redeem myself because – beyond anything, above anything, Brian – it’s falling short of my potential. That's something that I have to live with, right?
But that's also something that I've been trying to repair. I've been doing a lot of outreach. In conjunction with fighting for my life, I've been trying to save some other kids lives...
ONE-MINUTE WARNING
I've been trying to – I've been fighting to save other kids, like kids who are caught up in the juvenile justice system because that's how you bring balance to your life. Obviously, I can't bring back the person's life I took but maybe I can save one of these young people's lives who are coming behind me, maybe I can save their lives and, in that way, try to redeem this life that I took.
PRISON ID MESSAGE
You know so that's what I'm doing, that's what I'm trying to do brother. I'm just trying to do the right thing now. Just trying to do the right thing, you know, do right by myself do right for my family and do right by the people who love and support me man. I'm just trying to do the right thing.
BRIAN: (Just a point of information: Keith is referring to his Native Sons Literacy Project – nativesonsliteracy.org. I'll leave a link in the show notes.)
Usually, we have time to talk about the news headlines offline, but since time is limited, I just thought I'd throw this one out to you and see what you thought. Not sure why it tickled my fancy the way it did, but it's some interesting stuff here, man.
“Trump tells McConnell it is too soon to give up.
“Soon after Majority Leader – Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell congratulated Joe Biden on the election win Wednesday, President Trump told McConnell in a tweet early that it was “too soon to give up. Republican Party must finally learn to fight,”
Trump wrote, sharing an article, “Trump’s allies slam Mitch McConnell for congratulating Biden.”
KEITH: I mean that's trump's M.O., right? I heard Barr has also resigned because he came out and said there were no irregularities in the election, right? He told him you gotta go.
But yeah let me say this Brian. As absurd as Trump is as an individual, I understand the motivation to keep fighting. That's what I'm doing. But you've got to bring the evidence, though.
Yeah, I can understand if you feel you've been wronged and then, yeah you’re supposed to do everything you possibly can in order to right that wrong.
BRIAN: You have that right.
KEITH: ...but you gotta have the evidence, though. You have that right. But you have to have the evidence though. You just can't keep saying, “I didn't get a fair trial” or “I didn't get a fair election.”
And had I not come into the statements that I always knew existed, but they withheld them during my trial. I knew these statements existed. They had to exist; somebody had to have seen somebody else do the murders that I was being accused of. I knew that because I didn't do it.
And so – but the state withheld these statements until my trial ended and the judge colluded with them to do that.
But lo and behold! they trickled in and that's the thing when I'm talking about God when I'm talking about how the universe works.
I have the statements now.
And see, it would be different if Trump had the goods because he's president of the United States! Surely he'd get a hearing – “Here's what I have.”
But he's been going from court after court with the best attorneys in the world and all of them have finally come out and said,”Listen man, ain't nothing here, you know..."
But I've got the actual statement of someone who actually admitted to killing somebody for whom I was sentenced to death. I have that statement. I just recently discovered a statement from one of the key witnesses, one of the star witnesses who swore he saw me commit crimes, admit in his initial statement that I wasn't even in the pod. See this is what I want people to see.
PRISON ID MESSAGE
So this is what I want people to see. Because ultimately what I’m doing is retrying my case in the court of public opinion. I want the public's opinion – on whether or not I got a fair trial or not.
BRIAN: I would have to say that – out of all the people I've spoken to who read the book, the consensus is that there's no way that you could have possibly committed the murders that occurred during the Lucasville riot, man.
This is why I think it's so important whenever I talk to people, I always tell them to read the book, because it gives such an in-depth accounting of what you saw and what you didn't see – and where you were and where you were not.
KEITH: Yeah, you said, “Read the book.”
That's so amazing man you don't you just don't know, brother. The fact that there's even a book to read you know. I'm talking about just the struggle it took just to learn how to write about your life, what you were going through – what you go through.
Not a lot of people know how to tell their story. A lot of people first of all don't feel that their story is worth telling... because it's a difficult thing to do.
BRIAN: I’m still working on mine.
KEITH: You're a good writer too, man and you had a hell of a story.
We talk a lot you know behind beyond what we record and share with people. We just talk about life you and I man and it's a hell of a story, you know.
All of us go through our trials and tribulations, our ups and downs you, know, based on the situations that we are born into; the circumstances the context that we come into this world that we are confronted by; these different situations and circumstances. but I can't wait for people just to learn more about your story brother. Because it's a triumph in a lot of ways.
BRIAN: Thanks man... Thanks.
While we're talking about your book, I think the way you were actually able to physically get the story down on paper is an interesting story. Why don't you can you talk a little bit about that?
KEITH: Amy Gordiejew – participating since day one with my campaign...
You know Amy, man, helped me write the book really. I transcribed the book to her over the phone – as crazy as that might sound because I didn't trust the mail and so I just used to, every morning between 8:00 and 10:00 o'clock, I used to read to her and she used to type it into the computer. We did the whole book like that.
Her little kids; Lola was five, Daniel was eight years old when they came into my life. And now Daniel is basically overseeing my Instagram account along with quite a few other people, right?
And Paulie. He's tweeting out putting stuff on Facebook. They're all family, man, but you know, just to have that come full circle like that is just a humbling ex(perience).
Lori Swain – Lori Swain is the one who produced the documentary – while we're giving shoutouts. Lori Swain, she rode all over Ohio doing interviews, put together the documentary; Gwen Mason, you know accompanied her, her road dog, you know, so she wouldn't be in the car by herself, you know what I mean?
Jess, J Sole, Wali, Brian Jackson, Marion, Zelda and Nathaniel... you know, there's so many people! Too many people to really call out; Luana – all the information she's been giving us, you know, keeping us abreast of certain things that's going on making those connections, you know what I mean? Somebody on the other side of the world!
BRIAN: Shoutout to our UK listeners.
KEITH: You know and so it's so many people who have come into my life and that has restored my faith in humanity.
So even if my worst fears come true – and I tell people this all the time – I don't feel like my life has been a waste. Particularly these past 20 odd years. I've been imprisoned for 32 years but just in the last two decades, which is a long time under any standard. But the last 20 years I've been really living my life – a good life, Brian. A good life, brother, and I'm proud of it. I’m proud of it. They say you judge people by their friends and I really wish people could see in me some of the...
PRISON ID MESSAGE
… and they say you have to judge people by their friends and I really wish people could meet and get to know some of the people who I count among my friends: Dennis O’Hearn.
BRIAN: Another great writer.
Beautiful person, man; his wife Bilge you know and just all the help... Helen – you know, the gifted little young person that's a part of our circle. Brilliant! Who knows what kind of brilliant stuff she's going to do!
Daniel. Lola, Paulie... I could just go on forever naming people who have been instrumental in helping me carry my story forward and without whom I would still be a nameless, faceless person but it's just about doing the work.
And Ralph Waldo Emerson said, “If you do what you are assigned, you can neither hope too much nor dare too much.”
You just have to do what you are assigned.
So the question becomes: “From whence comes the assignment though?”
Life. Life, man. Life’s telling you what you need to do. You know, you have to be in tune with your life. And at some point, along the way something told me I had to learn how to write and I listened to that and Richard Wright taught me how to write. His book Native Son, I listened to it or read it every day. Every day. And I still do. I still do, even to this day. I've got it in my CD player right now. You know nobody has CDs nowadays. But I do you know what I mean and I listen to it particularly CD #14. That's the CD where everything is at.
If you get the Richard Wright Native Sons it's the 14th CD. It's so cold. It's cold man, that somebody was that brilliant. On this planet man. And I have all of his stuff right here within arm's reach man and I feel so blessed for that – and all this music man I have.
PRISON ID MESSAGE
BRIAN: You have a serious collection. Yeah, you spent a long time curating and...
KEITH: I've had to discard a lot of stuff – “yeah, that’s not for me...”
Plus you gotta figure out what's for you, what belongs to you, what speaks to you. And before that so you gotta find out who you are first before you even start classifying this stuff you know what I mean? And that took me 10, 12 years just to figure out who I was again. You know what I mean? And so the last 20 years I can say I've really been doing some good quality living, man. Good quality living.
I owe that to a lot of people though you know. I didn't do it on my own.
Snoop– I always mention Snoop when I'm talking about my life.
(Laughs)
He's dead now man, I found out. He got off of death row, as he told me he would but he died shortly after that of cancer. Isn't that something man. That's how it happens.
He told me he was going to get off death row because this dude was brilliant, Brian. I'm talking about quantum physics, the whole nine yards. He knew about everything but you know and he was a drug dealer. He didn't get caught selling drugs he got caught doing something totally outside of that, man and for whatever reason he took a liking to me, man and I sat at his foot and just... soaked it all up, man and that, I think saved me. I think that saved me.
Snoop.
And he was funny too, man. Funny as David Chappelle.
(Laughs)
BRIAN: (Laughs) That's pretty funny!
KEITH: This guy was hilarious, man! He was hilarious, man, you know...
He used to write me letters and draw a little men on it to illustrate some of the points he was making in the letter you know? (Laughs) ...and it had captions you know, “I’m a clown!" You know what I mean? Like that...
BRIAN: Yeah...
KEITH: And he helped me work through a lot of my fears...
PRISON AUTO-DISCONNECT
BRIAN: Yeah brotherman. Strange times man. Strange, strange times...
KEITH: I just want to say man- yeah it's definitely strange times that we move in through, especially in here. Moving through some difficult days man these last several months or so.
And I know that this is you know kind of different from the format that we usually try to put together and I know you are really just trying to focus on me and my situation and I appreciate that, brother. You've been doing that from the very beginning, man, just trying to help me get my word out for that so let me just personally thank you, Brian just for taking that time, brother and just for help elevating my voice and everything man. I can't even put into words how grateful I am for that, for you taking the time away from your family from your kids... You know, I don't know where they're at, 'cause I don't hear any noise in the background so maybe you had them sequestered in some kind of soundproof room while we're doing this (laughs)...
BRIAN: Nah man, they’re right outside the door, man!
KEITH: ...but I appreciate it brother. Damn, I appreciate it man. You know in hopes that we can bring more people into the conversation, into this circle man. Let's widen the circle you know I think it was Alice Walker who said it – “Anything you love can be saved.”
Alice Walker said that. “Anything you love can be saved.”
Well I hope that means that I can be saved, because I definitely have a lot of love in my l....
BRIAN: You definitely have a lot of love in your life. You've given a lot of love and that's the love that's coming back at you, man.
And you've also added so much wisdom and insight to this podcast man, and it wouldn't be the same without you.
Keith – thank you for participating in this journey together. Over the last few years – I mean, over the last few months – that we've gotten to know each other, and um...
KEITH: It feels like some years though, huh? (Laughing)
BRIAN: Yeah man, but what I’m trying to say is, you feel like family too. So, I’ve got the time.
KEITH: Yeah man, and I don't take that lightly. I don't take that lightly at all, man and...yeah... I hope that in some way I've been able to return some of the kindness and generosity you've shown me since the beginning, since day one, you know because it's about reciprocity man.
I believe in keeping it moving, keeping it circulating man and I try to do that with everybody who reaches into my life I try to be for them what they're trying to be for me man and kind of mirror back to them what they need – what they’ve given. I mean I'm in tune to that yeah I'm in tune to that
BRIAN: Well, I've spoken to many of them and I feel and I can speak on their behalf when I say that you have given back much more, more than that and we appreciate it.
Before we go let me just say also one of my main supporters Amy Turk – she's running the Twitter account, she's in charge of the Twitter thing so I would be remiss if I didn't mention her. Amy Turk, she's been a great help. Her brother Ben Turk, too – yeah. It's just too many people!
if I didn't mention you for whatever reason, charge it to my head and not my heart because I deeply love everybody who's involved in my campaign, and I think Alice Walker had it right: anything you love can be saved. And I think I'm going to be saved. I'm already saved because I'm living my life with all of y’all and so I feel good about that.
The Lowerys – they’ve been trucking these kids down here to see me since they were in diapers. And having those kids in my life, having those kids in my heart, has helped me remain on the human side of things.
BRIAN: I’m sure of that.
KEITH: If you get my drift.
BRIAN: I totally get your drift. And we can’t forget about your Uncle Mainie, man, because we were supposed to give him a shout-out a little while ago, so “What’s up, brother”
KEITH: That’s my main man, Dwight LaMar, my grandfather’s oldest son. Looks just like my granddad. Me and my granddad were close too, Brian. And my uncle came to see me every month before the quarantine, before coronavirus. Now and then in the visit...
ONE MINUTE WARNING
I would see my grandfather's face in my uncle's face and I'd say to my uncle, “I just saw him.” And so on the visits I would also get to see my grandfather as well so it was a double bonus. And he's been coming down here faithfully for years. 20 years, over two decades, my uncle. My whole family man, a lot of my family, my nieces and nephews. I've got a lot of good people in my life man.
You do the same for us brother well I just wanted to close out that that section man and I appreciate this.
I know that it was in the best of circumstances from an audio perspective, but I’m looking forward to many more, many more conversations in the future
KEITH: Okay.
BRIAN: So, Happy Holidays everyone and thanks a lot. We'll see you the other side.
KEITH: Happy New Year. See you on the other side, yeah. Thanks brother.
BRIAN: Thank you, Keith. Talk to you soon.
PRISON AUTO DISCONNECT
We were initially going to talk about things that have gone on since the election, but after our conversation about Brandon Bernard's death and the recent speedup of federal executions, the COVID lockdown in the prison – it became clear that there was no subject more important than what Keith and too many others like him are going through.
As a “reality check,” as a friend of Keith described the raw quality of the episode, you heard the voice of “Brenda,” which is what Keith calls the lifeless message that interrupts his phone calls every five minutes – almost always just when the conversation is getting good. You might have heard loud sounds in the background or doors slamming or men yelling across corridors.
I hope that Keith’s description of some of his daily challenges and heartbreaks start a fire of restless outrage inside of you as it has in all of us and moves you to join us in fighting to see to it that Keith LaMar lives the rest of his natural life feeling the sun on his face whenever he pleases.
We soldier on. Continue to be safe in 2021 and thank you for your support.
You can find out more about Keith LaMar at keithlamar.org and @justiceforkeithlamar on Facebook and Instagram.
Support his struggle and learn about his case by buying his book, Condemned, on Amazon.
I'm Brian Jackson and this has been Pieces of a Man.