#047 -The Biggest Royalty Owner Complaints About Communicating with Operators.

On today's episode, we are talking with guest Wade Caldwell, President of the National Association of Royalty Owner.  Wade is here to share the Top 5 complaints of  Royalty Owner complaints about communicating with operators. Hear first-hand how you can implement the changes needed to support your Royalty Owners.

On this episode we will talk about:
•   The biggest change when it comes to the availability of community of information to mineral and Royalty Owners.
•   The biggest advantage  to operators in improving their communications and the ability of mineral and Royalty Owners
•   The number 1 complaint from Royalty Owners
•   How to get division orders for allocation wells. 
•   What happens when operators failed to obtain the consents required under a lease?

To listen to this episode check it out on iTunes + Stitcher or on the website. 

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About NARO:
NARO is a volunteer led, member based, 501(c)6 education and advocacy organization established in 1980 to assist US mineral owners.

The mission of NARO is to support, advocate and educate for the empowerment of mineral and royalty owners.

Find a chapter near you.

www.naro-us.org/

Transcript

Tom Wireman: 0:01

Hi and welcome to the oil and gas accounting podcast. I'm your co host Tom Wireman, Executive Director of Copus, the Council of Petroleum Accountants Societies. I'm here with my co host Phil Sherwood, owner and founder of sure where the provides software for oil and gas operators and accountants. If you're a CPA, an accountant, a bookkeeper and office manager. Or if you're an oil and gas operator doing your own accounting, this podcast is for you.

Phil Sherwood: 0:24

We're here talking with the experts in their respective accounting areas to keep you up to speed on the latest accounting news rules and data. There is so much happening in the world today, especially in oil and gas that affects the accounting function of a business. Our job on this podcast is to keep you up to date and help you see more, no more and do more as an accounting professional in our field. Let's get started. Welcome again to The Oil and Gas Accounting Podcast. I'm Phil Sherwood, and I'm here with my co host, Tom Wireman.

Wade Caldwell: 0:57

Hey, everybody. It's good to be here with you today.

Phil Sherwood: 0:59

Tom, why don't you tell us a little bit about the topic for today's episode.

Tom Wireman: 1:03

Our guest today is Wade Caldwell. Wade is the President of the National Association of Royalty Owners. I'm gonna let him give you a little bit more about his detailed resume. But his topic is the 10 biggest royalty owner complaints about communicating with operators. And he's got a modest proposal for that. So Wade, why don't you give us a little bit about your background. And we'll get started.

Wade Caldwell: 1:22

Well, Tom and Phil, thank you very much for having me today. I'm delighted to be on this podcast. And I'm oil and gas attorney 63 years old. I live in San Antonio. And I am on the mineral and landowner side almost exclusively, and also manage fam family minerals for family interests in mostly in West Texas. But anyway, I've been doing this for quite a while and really enjoyed what I'm doing. So thank you for having me.

Phil Sherwood: 1:57

Tom mentioned that you are the President of NARO. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about the organization? What it does? Maybe start with what the abbreviation that stands for.

Wade Caldwell: 2:07

NARO stands for National Association of Royalty Owners. This is a 42 year old organization that's based out of Tulsa. It's basically a education and advocacy 501c6 organization for mineral and Royalty Owners around the country. We have chapters in 11 Different states or regions. And we have several 1000 members. That's one of the oldest and largest of the royalty owner organizations. And it's one of the very few that is national in scope. The way it's set up is you have chapters that form and then advocate or educate on this on the state level for oil and gas, mineral and Royalty Owners. And then the umbrella organization or national board keeps an eye on what's going on in Washington and tries to advocate and educate on behalf at a national level for the those members. So that's pretty much what we do. And it's my second year as president of the National Organization. I'm rolling off at the end of December, but it's been a really great experience.

Tom Wireman: 3:23

Well, again, thank you for being here with us today.

Phil Sherwood: 3:25

Yeah, how many members? Did you say nationally there are at NARO?

Unknown: 3:29

We have about 2,500 full time members. And you know it fluctuates largely with the price of oil. That's really about the current membership.

Phil Sherwood: 3:43

And which state association would you say is the largest?

Unknown: 3:46

Texas is the largest chapter as you would expect. The organization was founded in Oklahoma was actually founded back in the 1970s to combat the wind windfall profits tax. So it's kind of interesting to hear that name again, being circulated and grew out of that organization and established chapters in these other states. But Texas and Oklahoma are the largest, but we have substantial chapters in Ohio Appalachia, the Rockies, Colorado, California has a chapter Louisiana and anyway it's it's in primarily in the oil and gas producing states.

Tom Wireman: 4:26

You know, some of our listeners are operators or they have departments that handle revenue distributions to working interested in Royalty Owners, what's changed in the mineral community that would make these companies rethink how they communicate with the owners? And really kind of point maybe to the point of what you're going to get to today.

Wade Caldwell: 4:43

Tom, the biggest change that I've seen is the availability of community of information to mineral and Royalty Owners. You know, back in the old days, Mineral and Royalty Owners were typically ranchers and farmers in a local community The if you needed to get deed records to find out who else owned minerals around you, you had to go down the courthouse or hire land man to do so or go to the local title company. And to be able to exchange information, you have to go down the Dairy Queen and buy a cup of coffee that has changed. In today, you have internet message boards, very active on the mineral and royalty owner side exchanging information. All of the exclusivity of the local deed records is who owns what is gone away. It's now available at your fingertips if you know how to run a computer and know what sites to go to. And so what that has happened, what's happened in along with organizations like NARO is that middle and Royalty Owners are able to share information a lot more and are willing to share that information a lot more than in the old days? And so it's probably been a good development because it's caused a more sophisticated and knowledgeable group of Mineral and Royalty Owners that deal with operators on leasing or production issues.

Tom Wireman: 6:08

So what are the advantages for an operator for improved communications with the Royalty Owners?

Wade Caldwell: 6:16

Being on the Mineral and Royalty Owner side and seeing the frustrations that people have in dealing with operators, the biggest advantage I see to operators in improving their communications and the ability of mineral and Royalty Owners to get hold of them is reducing their complaints and their questions for their staff. I'm sure that most of your operators think of the brand new mineral owner that doesn't know anything that just inherited it from the parents and never taught them how to manage minerals, they're unsure of themselves, they're scared, they're frustrated, and you you get those calls. So you know, I think that improved communications reduces those complaints. It also has other effects of reducing audit requests on royalties. It's all about establishing trust with your middle and landowners. And if you improve your communications, it allows you to build that level of trust. So that then when you need to go back and do lease amendments, get pooling, agreements, ratifications, other types of agreements, you've got that level of trust built up where you get more cooperation, I think it also lowers your leasing costs, because mineral and Royalty Owners want to go with somebody that they trust, even if perhaps the bonus is not quite as high as some competitor. And finally, it lowers your legal costs and results in cheaper settlements when you do get into disputes with owners. Because if they view you as a cooperative and transparent company, they're more likely to I mean, I know there's exceptions to every rule, but they're more likely to cause you less of a headache and less expense. And most importantly, probably from the COPUS point of view is better morale with your staff, not having to deal with angry or uneducated middle owners all the time.

Phil Sherwood: 8:17

You know, being a software provider, we have software for operators, and we have software for royalty owners. And it's interesting when we go to talk to the different groups, there seems to be a big distrust between the royalty and the mineral owners to the operators. I think there are some, maybe some bigger operators in the past that have given them reason to distrust. How do you see the picture now?

Unknown: 8:39

It's improved quite a bit. Since I've been involved, the level of mistrust has gone down one reason is because of the better communication among mental and Royalty Owners. Secondly, the availability of information, mineral and royalty owner knows what they're doing and go and can go find out what information is available online before they make that first phone call. It helps, you know, certainly there's still some operators out there that have a probably a well deserved reputation for somebody to keep an eye on. But in general, you know, I see the level of mistrust going down. That's good.

Tom Wireman: 9:20

You know, I remember back in the days when I was kind of at shirttail relationship with with royalty owners, managing the revenue department at the company that I was at, we added a division order department that really took care of most of the issues, but owners sometimes depend on those checks. And when they don't come in for some reason, and they've they've got an unexpected expense. And I remember in this case, it was a little lady from Weibull, Montana, and the garage door opener went out and she wanted to know where oil Tech was she hit by a new garage door opener. So you just it's interesting some of the little details and things that happen, but you know, just spending some time with her and explain why she didn't get a check that month. property was actually in her workover. And she didn't really understand all that. So hopefully I got some golden graces in her books, and she trusted me come forward. But I think that's what your point is here to you is just spend that time and help people understand what the issues are.

Wade Caldwell: 10:14

Yes. And you know, we've done some studies. And you know, our estimates are that there's over 11 million mineral and Royalty Owners in the US. And the average mineral and royalty owner is a retirement age widow that's getting about $800 a year in royalties. So there are a lot of small mineral and Royalty Owners still out there that have held on to these minerals, because they see it as part of their family heritage. And certainly, you know, they depend on that money. So the idea that this is, you know, a bunch of large landowners is really not the case for the average person

Phil Sherwood: 10:54

is the US one of the few countries that allows private ownership of minerals?

Wade Caldwell: 10:59

Yes, US and Canada have always had private ownership, whereas many other countries at the beginning of the foundation of the country decided that they would own the resource, the natural resources, ie Mexico.

Tom Wireman: 11:14

Phil, let's shift gears for just a minute here. Again, your presentation was entitled The top 10 complaints. What the top complaint that you're hearing today from Royalty Owners was number one?

Wade Caldwell: 11:24

By far the largest complaint is operators that can't be found, you get a notice that the operators changed in this is mostly smaller operators. And there's no website, if they if they have a telephone number on the check, although they're supposed to have a telephone number, it goes to voicemail, there's no email to contact anybody. If you leave a voicemail, the calls don't get returned. And so immediately, that puts the middle royalty owner in the position of having to write letters. And if they've gone to that trouble, they're probably mad already. So I would urge every operator to have a website, to have an owner relations page, to have good information on that owner relations page to try to get out the appearance of being easy to communicate with, they'll respond to emails quickly respond to telephone messages just to get left on a voice mailbox. So that's by far the biggest complaint is just the small operators that make themselves hard to find.

Phil Sherwood: 12:32

The ideal with a lot of small operators, and I do know that a lot of them do not have websites. So that would be probably one of the biggest things because when you go to look for information, you're gonna go to Google first thing and those companies website is going to come up. So that is a great suggestion that every operator have their own website, it just has to be a one page website with your contact information. Pretty much. But yeah, what would you say the number two complaint is?

Wade Caldwell: 12:58

The number 2 complaint is about owners that get put in suspense, and aren't told that they've been put in suspense, you know, some title issues come up. And maybe it's a well, that they're only getting a check on once a year. And it's a small check. And you know that a lot of them just don't realize that they've been put in suspense, and they're not getting checks anymore. And so we actually tried to get a law passed in Texas that would have required a mandatory notice be sent to owners if they get put in suspense. We weren't able to get that passed in the last session. But we're going to try again, in the upcoming session. In a lot of a lot of these I've run across many cases where somebody got put in suspense because of a computer error, or a cheque that got returned because the post office messed up. And if there was some mechanism in place where there was an effort made to contact those people and let them know that they've been put in suspense. I think it would help a lot in terms of ratcheting down the level of mistrust.

Tom Wireman: 14:03

I guess what you're what you're saying a little bit, too is so I have siblings and a lot of other Royalty Owners and things have siblings. So I get my check and my sister doesn't get hers, she immediately thinks okay, what's going on? Why did you get your check? I didn't get mine. And that's back to the point here. If it was a computer mistake where something got overridden in the system or the post office returned the check for no apparent reason. Maybe through no fault of her own. She signed the division order and everything and no fault of her own she she got suspended so but you know, I'm sure she would be feeling like something wasn't quite right. And she'd be a little upset about I guess that's kind of the point that you're making here. So

Wade Caldwell: 14:42

Yes, and there's some I think benefits for operators here that if you if there is a title dispute that comes up is to notify the the mineral and Royalty Owners or get put in suspense because if they decide that they need to file suit to clear up that title dispute, they're a lot less likely to include the operator in that lawsuit. If they feel like the operator was proactive and let them know what the dispute was, and who was raising it, and make the fight between the owners that have the dispute and not involve the operator.

Tom Wireman: 15:18

That's a good point. You mentioned when we were talking earlier about, you know, making sure that we have good relationships between the operator and the royalty owners. And you mentioned, you know, things for reasons such as lease amendments and that sort of thing. But what about allocation? Wells? Are you hearing anything about that?

Unknown: 15:37

Yes, that's a very hot topic. In Texas, at least, people are getting division orders for allocation wells. And it's really impossible to check to see if your royalty interest is correct, unless you know what the allocation formula is. And so some operators will include the plat, and they'll tell you what allocation formula they used, and how much of the wellbore was on your tract versus your neighbors to make it easy to do. But there's a lot that don't. And so, I do suggest that operators if they are drilling allocation wells provide that information along with the division order. I think it again, helps reduce calls and complaints, it also results in a higher percentage of division orders getting signed and returned. So that's been a big issue in Texas, people are learning what allocation wells are, but they still need the basic information to be able to check the figures, correct.

Phil Sherwood: 16:39

You know, what happens when operators failed to obtain the consents required under a lease? You know, they failed to notify they've been put into suspense, there's a title thing? Or are they you know, the leases, they have to consent to have something done on their property? Or their Well, what? What types of things come up then?

Wade Caldwell: 16:57

That's a bit of a major area of complaints, you know, if you have a lease that required your consent for pooling. For example, first of all, you know, not setting up your lease in your system to flag those issues, is a common mistake that I see made. And you know, it can have really disastrous results for operators, they fail to get pooling consent. And it's a substantial owner in the wells on their tract. And they say, No, we don't agree, you know, the wells have been drilled and the checks are going out. And they say, Hey, we don't agree to this unit, you got to shrink it down. And you know, it can create a lot of havoc. So the failure to obtain consent, whether it's pooling, or if you've got a surface owner, you're dealing with on the weld location, or laying flow lines, you know, those types of issues that are commonly put into a lease that require consent.

Tom Wireman: 17:59

I've been to conferences before I'm thinking about one in particular, when I went to the, the one you want, like geske, for instance, State College, Pennsylvania, this was early on, and people were trying to understand why their checks had deductions that their neighbors didn't have any. And again, you talked a little bit earlier about how people compare information and notes back then it would have been a lot more manual. But what issues are you seeing with like post production deductions and things from from checks of the royalty owners?

Wade Caldwell: 18:30

Well, the biggest issue is companies that are taking deductions on no deduction leases. And I can't tell you how many operators have called when you get the first or second check and see that and they say, oh, sorry, we just, we messed up when we set it up in our system. But again, that's a intake and flagging issue with the operator that needs to those safeguards need to be put into place. And the second thing I've seen commonly is where a new operator takes over and they reevaluate the leases and decide that it does allow them to take deductions, and they state start taking deductions on wells that haven't had deductions taken on them for years. So to me, the the being able to reduce those complaints on the operator side starts with a check stub transparency, you know, having codes on the bottom that you're supposed to have under most state laws as to what the deductions are for possibly adding to your owner relations page on your website, an explanation of the deductions and why they're necessary from the operator point of view. It also gives the operator the chance to put their story out there as to why they need particularly on gas production to be able to deduct some of these expenses. You know, a lot of less sophisticated mineral owners that may be getting paid on an old Amid finished product out of the gas plant don't realize that those deductions may be benefiting them because it's making them more valuable product to sell. So those are the types of issues that we see that are the complaints that are most often raised.

Tom Wireman: 20:20

One thing I was going to ask you to just if this kind of stuck in my mind. I remember back in the day, is North Dakota, the only state that's pretty, very prescriptive, I guess, in terms of what their check stub detail looks like, or states adopted similar kinds of things? I know, I know, it was very, very clear at one point that you had to have all the attributes that the state required is that it's common now? Or is that just kind of state by state?

Wade Caldwell: 20:46

Yes, most of the oil and gas producing states have some sort of checks to disclosure law. Texas has a pretty good one, Oklahoma has a pretty good one, in what I see more often is particularly smaller operators that just don't follow what the law requires. But even beyond that, may be possible to comply with the law, but still not give enough detail that's a mineral owner can look at the check stub and in really understand what the deductions are for whether this processing transportation, marketing, compression, whatever the the type of deduction maybe.

Phil Sherwood: 21:29

So what complaints that you receive regarding ratifications?

Wade Caldwell: 21:32

Ratifications is a important issue, particularly for non participating Royalty Owners, which there are a lot of them out there. They don't even know that Elise has been done. In many cases, they don't know that a well has been drilled. And here they get a ratification and a division order in the mail. And so, you know, their first question is, well, what, what lease got signed here? And so I've always wondered why, if you're going to send somebody a ratification, ask him to ratify a lease or a pooling agreement. Why don't you just go ahead and include the underlying lease and the pooling agreement with ratification, because any more sophisticated middle enrolled, the owner is not going to sign that until they get a copy of that document. So to me, it again, builds credibility by the operator to provide that underlying document without having to request it.

Phil Sherwood: 22:29

It seems like, again, this is communication coming up again, do you think it's better for operators to over communicate with their mineral owners? I know some operators, they like to send as little as possible to try to avoid questions, because some, sometimes the more information you get, the more questions there are. What do you say on that?

Unknown: 22:49

Well, I can see that, you know, if you are, it may provoke more questions from less sophisticated owners. But the things that I'm suggesting here are things that a reasonably sophisticated owner, or is going to ask for and so it's really, you know, like providing the underlying document with a ratification agreement. If that procedure or safeguard was built into the system on the operator side, is going to first eliminate all those follow up calls. And, you know, again, build trust, let's say you were dealing with a very sophisticated owner, and they said, Hey, man, this guy sent me the lease without me even having to ask for it. And when he sent me this ratification. I like that company. It builds that level of trust, and probably reduces the level of phone calls that you get, you know, and particularly in an example like that, I don't see that it's going to generate more phone calls by including the underlying lease along with a ratification request, if anything is going to result in less phone calls.

Tom Wireman: 24:01

By my count, we're kind of up to point number seven in your tenant complaints. What can operators do to help educate owners? Because I think one of the points that you've been making along the way is that, you know, owners just they can't educate themselves necessarily. So they need some help, what can operators see to help that?

Wade Caldwell: 24:19

You know, I think that operators need to realize that if they've got the angry person on the phone that really doesn't know about minerals. They may be upset because their parents didn't explain this to him. They may be upset because they don't get along with the siblings and the siblings are not sharing information with them. And so I think it's it would be helpful if operators were to help guide mineral owners to the organizations that are out there groups like Nehru, Texas Land and mineral Owners Association, Nadella that have a lot of information that somebody can go and read. mineralrightsforum.com. For example, if you're providing that information, I've always wondered why they don't include with the, if you've got a new owner that just took over because dad or granddad died, why there isn't some sort of flyer that goes with the division order or transfer order that says, hey, here's the list of organizations that you may want to check on To find out more information about mineral and royalty ownership. Because to me, a more sophisticated mineral and royalty owner reduces workload for operators rather than increases.

Phil Sherwood: 25:38

Yeah, those were a lot of great resources. Another one would be the Mineral Rights Podcast.

Wade Caldwell: 25:47

Yes. Yeah, that's a great pod podcast as well.

Phil Sherwood: 25:51

There's a complaint probably when agreements and paperwork getting lost. Do you have any thoughts here on how the operator can help Royalty Owners when they've misplaced agreements, so they can't find the least they can't find their paperwork?

Wade Caldwell: 26:05

Yes, you know, understanding, again, you may be dealing with somebody who's the family's fractured in this, the sibling or the executor of the estate, is not given in that any information. So they're frustrated and upset, they don't have a copy of the lease, they don't know how to go and find, and usually the leases are not in the deed records anyway. And so to me, it builds a lot of credibility with that owner, if you provide them last documents, like leases, like a pooling consent that's been signed or a unit, you know, to zation agreement that's been signed it most operators have it at their fingertips at the end of a computer mouse and consented pretty easily. And so I think that providing those agreements to owners is a constructive thing that that helps operators. So it and also may answer a lot of the questions that people have, like, you know, they they'd call about post production deductions on their check. Well, email them, the old producer, at least that grandpa signed to show that, yes, those deductions are allowed, and that probably is going to be the end of the conversation. But if you refuse to provide that lease, then you know, you get the formal notices pursuant to state law to provide that you have to respond to and to me, I just think that anything that you can do to help provide that information to him is probably going to reduce your workload in the long run. Where do you see operators trying to mend leases through the division order process? Is that Is that a concern? It is, you know, the law is a little bit murky on that in some states. You know, in Texas, for example, you can revoke any division order you sign with 30 days notice. But, you know, we have seen some operators that particularly try to get language on post production deductions, and put into the division in order that maybe the lease didn't allow. And so, you know, most states have a state mandated division order form that the operators have to accept. If they don't, there's the Nadella form out there. And since I haven't seen any big advantage to an operator to try to gain any legal leverage by including stuff in a division order that doesn't really belong there. So my pitch with operators to stick with the Nadella are state mandated forms. And it's going to reduce your workload, because they again, the people they're going to catch that are the more sophisticated owners, they're going to send you a nasty letter saying, Okay, I'll see you tried to amend my lease, well, here's the state mandated division order that I've signed. And then you've got to go back and check to see they didn't change anything. Or change the, the Ri on the division order that they they created themselves and signed and sent back to you. So again, I would discourage operators from trying to do that.

Tom Wireman: 29:17

What about portals and things? I mean, I know that's probably one of the things that you'll get into here a little bit more, but is that something that that NARO is is really, I guess promoting,

Wade Caldwell: 29:28

I don't know the NARO is promoting it, I've been promoting it, because that's that's really the way that I see this going. You know, you've got this great explosion of information that's available to mineral enrollments, theatres, inverse with buying every check processing company they can get their hands on, and the operators that are pushing mineral and Royalty Owners to get their check stub data electronically, because once you get it set up, it's a lot He's, you're on the owner as well. And so what I see this going to is really a form of a portal that operators should set up for their owners. Where you and I've done this for to get drilling reports, you know, the, the operator provides me a portal that I log in and pull drilling reports on. Well, that's been drilled, you know, there's portals that exist for check stub data. Why are those portals being expanded to a a owner portal in general, where the owner of ll say, Okay, here's the production on my wells, without having to rely on the delayed data that's coming through a state agency website, for example. They can go in and maybe get more detail on the deductions that have been taken and answer their questions so that you don't get emails or letters asking for audits, I think that would first smaller oversee would probably eliminate the need for them, you know, having to get a CPA to set them up, if they had a way to go get digital data directly themselves. So anyway, I just see a lot of benefits to these baby steps of little mini portals and different facets of middle ownership being combined into one big portal. And, and, you know, it's, you know, the security on it, I think can be set up. I know, it's just a hassle to monitor the security with all the tricks going on out there. But it seems to be the way that we're heading.

Phil Sherwood: 31:39

What would ideally be included in a portal like that you talked about drilling reports, check stub data, what other types of information would you like to see out their production data?

Wade Caldwell: 31:50

You know, if a wells been shut in for being worked over, and there's a delay in when it's reported to the state, and when the owner can go and get the information from the state. And usually, it's been more than the 60 to 90 days work over provision in a lease, but that that information is available to the operator immediately. So if there was a note, okay, well, we'll shut in to replace the downhole pump. That's one saved phone call or one save letter that you don't have to respond to. And so those, that's the type of information that I see owners would want through an owner portal.

Phil Sherwood: 32:31

Would they like to see like the joint agreement, the lease agreement out there any any kind of documents associated with it?

Wade Caldwell: 32:38

Well, that would be nice to have, you know, if they could go in and get their missing documents through the portal, particularly when you have a change of ownership, somebody dies, and all the documents got tossed in the estate sale, or the house clean out, you know, it helps new owners rebuild their library. And, again, this is stuff that's probably already set up on the land side. Even if it's just available, it would, I think in the long term, you know, there's there's a lot of, I can't downplay the amount of time it would take to set this up and implement it. But if the long term workload should be less for operators, in a lot of circumstances,

Tom Wireman: 33:23

Thanks Wade maybe just to wrap things up. Today, you've given those of us involved in revenue distribution, some helpful guidance and addressing ownership complaints or owner complaints from there, but maybe summarize just a handful of those key points for our listeners today.

Wade Caldwell: 33:37

If you're looking for a top five, it would be number one. Have a website and a good owner relations page; return your emails and phone calls on time. Number two is to provide the allocation formulas, the Azrael plat and the allocation formula being used with allocation wells. Number three would be to provide missing documents that an owner needs without making it difficult for them. And Number four would be to provide particularly on ratifications the underlying document that you're asking people to ratify those things of and by themselves would I think, build that credibility with your owners, help your owner relations reduce stress on your staff from having to deal with angry or, or upset people, and in the long term, reduce your workload.

Phil Sherwood: 34:39

Great, thanks. Yes. Very good. Thanks for being our guest today, Wade. This has been a really interesting discussion. Sitting here taking notes, and we provide for a lot of our operators for uploading documents. So I wanted to pick your brain to see what what other stuff we should Add to the portals that our operators have. So, thanks for providing that information through a conversation.

Wade Caldwell: 35:08

Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it very much.

Phil Sherwood: 35:12

Well, that wraps up this episode. Thanks to everybody for listening, Wade's contact information and such will be included in the show notes if you wish to contact him if you have more questions about Royalty Owners and royalty owner associations. Also, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts. Subscribe to the show so that you're notified when we drop the next episode.

Wade Caldwell: 35:33

Again, Wade, thank you so much. Until next time, listeners have a great day.

Unknown: 35:38

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