Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Having Kids and Spiritual Fatherhood
TJBHpodcast@gmail.com
We dive into deeper waters, exploring the spiritual significance of children from a Christian perspective. How does faith influence decisions about family size and the belief that each child has a divine purpose? AJ and I contrast these views with secular and transhumanist perspectives, challenging modern expectations and highlighting God's provision for those who trust in Him. Reflecting on historical and cultural shifts, this episode underscores the eternal and relational wealth each child contributes to a family.
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate. I'm with Justin what's up, bro? And we have AJ with us. Hey, it's the first time these two are in the same room together doing a podcast.
Speaker 2:I was hoping that everyone thought that AJ was just a character doing an impression. That.
Speaker 3:Justin played. Justin was doing it's Justin's. I'm going to give you my best character.
Speaker 1:AJ has kind of wandered up.
Speaker 2:This is aj I wandered up here, put headphones on and oh my gosh, that's so funny we're going to continue the uh fatherhood stuff that we'll be talking about.
Speaker 1:Let's go, man and aj has a plethora of kids yeah, a lot of them.
Speaker 2:That means a lot. He has that word I. I mean, I don't know, it's a lot now, it didn't used to be a lot I, he has tons.
Speaker 3:That word, I mean I don't know, it's a lot now. It didn't used to be a lot. I feel like what you have now used to be like the norm.
Speaker 2:Totally so everybody else got weird, you stayed solid.
Speaker 3:We stayed normal.
Speaker 2:My wife and I are obsessed with the 1800s and so we're like seven kids, 12. That's why it's the. Yeah, we've been churning lots of butter these days. Yeah, raising some barns. We want to be Amish, but with electricity, so we're trying to do all that.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you've cobbled shoes but it's great.
Speaker 2:If you want a good time on a Friday night? You just cobble some shoes.
Speaker 3:Cobble shoes have a hundred kids. I'll take your word for it on that one.
Speaker 2:Having kids is a blast man. It's fun, I mean, sometimes the grocery bill can be a little bit crazy Only if you're going to a whole paycheck, you know yeah that's true, and like when people you know lately how people have been taking that picture of what they used to be the grocery bills.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what it used to be.
Speaker 2:My wife's like that's so dumb. That's because people don't know how to shop for things that are on sale.
Speaker 3:And so if you You're like rubbing your eyes, like wait, you paid $13 for a bag of grapes, that's on you. That's your own fault. Why would you do that?
Speaker 2:If you really want those, wait until they go on sale. And if someone's like, oh, we got to have them, and it's like, then you got to be poor you have what eight kids, aj, aj, We've got six, and then we've got our seventh coming soon.
Speaker 1:And you have a fifth on the way right.
Speaker 3:Four and a fifth on the way, yeah.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you both something real quick what is in you to keep wanting them?
Speaker 3:Wait, do you Tim when a man meets a woman? Yeah, I know how it works.
Speaker 2:I would say the more for okay, so for us.
Speaker 1:I think after just lack of self-control, or you know what I mean. I'm kidding, I can't keep her up.
Speaker 2:A little. After the fourth we thought we were done.
Speaker 2:After my, my son Holden, we thought we were done and um, and then when my wife and I had a conversation about it at one point and we both realized if we were to find out we were pregnant right now, how would we feel? And I said I'd be excited and she said me too, and so we thought we should just keep having them. And then it was. It was kind of like during that time and then having our fifth and then our sixth and now our seventh, that we've realized how much we really really, really love this and cherish all of it and that kind of became a new part of the identity.
Speaker 2:Like we loved our family before but then where it was like this is what we were made for and children are a blessing, and just even like we always talk like that, we didn't talk bad about our kids ever. We always told them they were a blessing and talked about that with each other. Kids ever we always told them they were a blessing and talked about that with each other. But the more that we realized that that was true, that stuff we just rehearsed all the time. And so now when it's like we're having babies except our babies are getting closer together, which before they weren't, and I guess that goes to show, too, just the attitude change my wife and I had. That it's something we did believe before, but we believe on a way bigger level now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm fond of telling people, if you think of your kids as numbers, you get weird about it. If you think of them as individuals, you don't have that problem. Yeah, so, like I never think to myself oh man, I wouldn't have another Scarlet, you know what I mean, I wouldn't have another Felicity, you start giving them names because they're eternal, immortal souls. You're immortal souls Like you stop thinking about wow, you really had four kids, are you crazy? You really had seven kids. I mean, I'm one of eight. I had five sisters, two brothers. It was wild, it was a good time. I think the difficulty or the thing about families is not necessarily the number that you have, as much as, like recognizing what it is that you're trying to accomplish and the value of it. So, yeah, tim, if, like you can, just how did? Why do you keep having children? Well, there's one obvious reason and I would say I just want to go there for a second.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of people now, because of birth control, that are like we shouldn't have kids, we don't need to have kids. Why would we have kids? It's and it's pure selfishness. It's just pure selfishness. God puts you on the planet to have kids Like that's. It wasn't like he made man and he made woman, and then it was like sin came into the world and they were like oops, fell on each other. We had no idea this was going to be the case, like it's in the cards and part of his good design for you to have children and actually reproduce image bearers of God. That would bring dominion. They would do that, and so it's.
Speaker 3:You got to be a little bit careful about the playing God thing, and most people who are not a fan of having kids at this point are usually on the side of the secular, transhumanist people that are like let's not have children, let's become one with AI and slowly live in a green environment where everything you know.
Speaker 3:It's a weird deal. And so when I hear Christians that are like I don't want to have kids or I'm afraid of this or that, I'm like you sound more pagan than Christian and you sound more fearful than hopeful and it sounds to me like you're not really considering why God has brought you two together. So kids are important, names are important, realizing that it's not just numbers, they're people that God has formed together in a womb, has predestined before the foundation of the world and has a plan for I think that's a big deal. When I think about abortion and that whole industry and all the things around it, it's a ton of people that God, you could say in a sense, had a plan for, had stories for callings on, gifts, abilities, different things that were murdered, and when we talk badly about children and families and those things, we're almost on the side of the death cult, not on the side of the life-giving Christian perspective.
Speaker 1:So is it playing God? Then when you guys decide, all right, seven's enough, five's enough, we're done. Yeah, great question.
Speaker 3:What do you think when do?
Speaker 1:you know when you stop.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I have two and I'm like I don't know if I could afford or deal with a third.
Speaker 3:Hey AJ, have you ever been able to afford kids in your life when we had our first kid. We were so poor, and here we are with like seven and it's like so it's economically better and it's like At certain points I was tempted to find out what baby tasted like Barely.
Speaker 1:Well, my conversation with my wife is if we have another one now, it's like, okay, do they get the bathtub to sleep in or do they get the dresser drawer in the closet? You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Here's another funny thing, though, with regard to that Like we have these standards now for living that nobody else had in history, you know what I mean. Like people were living like we have a one-bedroom cabin and we got 12 kids, you know what I mean. They were popping out of there like a clown car, you know what I mean, and it was like everybody slept, they were tight, they did stuff together, I mean it was. It was like that's kind of how things were.
Speaker 3:We just have a standard now where it's like well, everyone has to have their own room everyone has to go to college and we have to have a kitchen and we have to have a living room and we have to have this and an attic and a storage place and where's my office going to be, and all this. I'm like that. That is. That's just a consequence of decadence, where everybody believes now it's like, look, if you look at all these other places in the world that are not Western, they're living maybe more normal in some ways. Sure, because they're not living the decadent life that we have.
Speaker 3:And I get you should be thoughtful. I want to go there next. I just don't want to go there first, because I feel like most people are looking for excuses to not have children. Most people are not thinking, oh man, I really want to have a lot of kids and I'm just I'm not sure, quite sure, how to do that. I think most people are thinking, ah, I want to have kids, but I really don't want to lose out on all the things that I enjoy more.
Speaker 1:You know it's oftentimes a selfishness that drives things. I get that, but like my apartment right now, I'm past the living limit for where I'm at.
Speaker 2:If you will do things in faith, like if you feel like God's telling you to have more kids. I think that's the thing is. People should ask Lord, what would you have us do? And I think the Lord would tell people have more kids. And and and let's see if. If God doesn't say that to, to to a couple, I'd be like okay, I guess you can, you know if you're doing, if you're walking in obedience to God, okay. But usually I think that if you guys were to say that God, what would you have us do? And if it's like, have more children, then you can trust him to be like help me, take care of these kids and let me do that.
Speaker 2:And through the years, I've never been one to make so much money necessarily. So it's like oh, so all these kids are going to be, are you going to be able to afford all that? The Lord has always provided for us and there's never been a time where we've had lack. And it's not so much of like man, you must be really prosperous. And it's like the Lord has been very kind every time and he's always provided for us.
Speaker 2:And, um, if there's times where it's like guess what we can't afford, like Netflix or guess what, we can't afford. From now on, there's no going to restaurants or there's no this, this thing is like is it worth it for this precious human life? And like I love what you were saying, justin, about the and not thinking of a number, but thinking of them as a name how different all my kids are and how beautifully unique they are and how I love them all uniquely. And it's just like I can't imagine my, our lives without any one of them and what they contribute to the house. And that is just like would you, would you skip having breakfast and lunch for the rest of your life to have this child here? It's like absolutely.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I think, a kingdom perspective here, tim, is that the Bible views children as wealth. That's how they're viewed. They're an inheritance from the Lord. This is like a thing that he gives you that is considered a blessing and beautiful and wonderful, and the thing that is going to sustain you actually after you're gone. That it's more important than homes and all the other things that we love to talk about.
Speaker 3:And I think in our world we flipped that it used to be. The home was for the family, and now we think about it it's like, well, no, the family, we'll get, the we'll get. It's for the home. It's like, no, this is it's for us home. It's like, no, this is it's for us. We want this home, we want this house, this land, this stuff. And it's like, well, no, all that stuff used to exist for the thing that you needed. Now you want it before you actually have the need and oftentimes you don't fill it with the thing that it's supposed to be filled with nice.
Speaker 3:And so I would say, if you're a christian and you're like I don't have money for it, right, because you don't need it yet, yeah, I bet you, god will provide what you need when you do what he's actually asked you to do and if you're wanting God to provide the need that you have, before the need is actually there. That's not faith and that's not Christianity. Aj, we talk about this all the time, right, like you can't store up faith for tomorrow. You can't store up grace from God in some kind of bank so that you just always have it and just pull the thing down, cash it in when you feel like you need it. He's going to give it to you when you actually walk in obedience, like when you actually take that step of faith. That water doesn't solidify for Peter under his feet until he steps out. Until then it's liquid.
Speaker 3:And I think a lot of people are like I just I'm not going to be able to do it. Look, I'm not telling you to be stupid, but there are some areas where it's like God clearly says I'm going to take care of you. This is what I want you to do, and you're like well, not until I see it. Jesus, read him and weep first. I would just be cautious, because I mean, I got married, I was making, I think, less than $10 an hour and God provided, and it was like I had a kid and I got a small raise and I had another kid and I like, oh, this got taken care of.
Speaker 3:I had another kid and I was like, how are we going to do this? And then God was like, oh, here's this, there's just, there's just miraculous stuff, even this. Uh, last week, dude, no-transcript, we're going to have to really pinch here and figure out how to do this. And uh, weren't sure exactly how it was going to work out and we just prayed and prayed and uh, and the we ended up getting this thing from our like insurance. It like re-upped somehow before the end of the year, exactly on the day that we were going to have to have a payment due. That we weren't even sure how it was going to happen.
Speaker 3:And it's like that's not a it's funny. But it's not funny because he always does that Like. He always has Always it like happens. And we're like, oh man, that happened. It's like I, at some point I should stop being surprised that god shows up, because he always, he always does. It may not be the timing that I like, but the principle is the same. You cannot store up grace and faith. You're gonna have to go ahead and walk that out and watch him meet you there um. Can I dig into that a little bit too?
Speaker 1:yeah, I just think.
Speaker 3:Psalm 127 is a great verse and I'd love to talk about it briefly. Okay, here's what it says Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain. It is vain for you to rise up early and go late to rest eating the bread of anxious toil, and go late to rest eating the bread of anxious toil, for he gives to his beloved even while they sleep. Okay, so this text is fantastic. It's like God is the one that has to build the house. You got to do it God's way. You got to walk out God's plan, and if you don't, it doesn't matter. You could put in all the hard work you want, you could stress about it all you want, you can get up early and you can go to bed late, and it won't matter, because unless you're doing it God's way, you're building for yourself and it doesn't do anything. It's not helpful, why? Because God gives to those that he loves, like those who are working for what he's called them to. Even when they're sleeping, he's working for them.
Speaker 3:And then we usually don't read the very next portion of this, which is directly connected to it. Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord. The fruit of the womb, a reward, like arrows in the hand of a warrior, are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them. He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate. So this text is directly connecting how you build your house having to have faith, god doing it for you, and then God providing for children and them being a heritage for you in the future that will sustain you long after you're gone.
Speaker 3:That's freaking cool, yeah. And it's like this reminder to us that the things that we're worried about with our home and land and how this is going to work out and how that's going to work out, god's actually going to do it, but you're going to have to take the steps first and then watch him multiply what he wants to do and these wonderful kids that love Jesus and are getting after it become part of what you're doing. And you would look back. I don't know a single person that'd be like man, I wish I didn't have that kid Could have had that Corvette, you know. Or if there is that person everyone would be like, well, that guy's a jerk. Yeah, you know that he's obviously everyone's like. That dude is morally repugnant. His moral compass is so jacked up. I'll surprised if he makes it home.
Speaker 1:I haven't heard it that way, but I have heard, like by their fourth kids, like if we would have had this kid first, we probably would not have had anymore because of how hard and difficult.
Speaker 2:When people say stuff like that because people would bring us their. You know, when I was doing student ministry, they would bring us kids and be like can you take this kid? They're just like we love middle school kids and they're like well, I'm glad you do, because they're driving me nuts. And there's times where it would really hurt my wife and I. It's like it would hurt our hearts, because it's like you have no idea how awesome this kid is. And we'd make a point to tell those parents all the time your kid's so amazing they're, they're so awesome.
Speaker 2:And I think if people, whenever people, have an attitude towards that, or they, uh, they, they have, or they they grew up in a family and they, they're like well, you know, I think my parents just had too many kids, they just didn't love me and it's of whack, and I'm sorry that your parents had priorities that are out of whack, or a parent that's saying that it's like I'm sorry that you feel this way about your kid. You're wrong, not them Like they're. They're not the problem, you're the issue. And so anytime it's just like you know, anytime we blow up on our kids, is it really because, like you guys had talked about this in one of the earlier podcasts, maybe two weeks ago. But, like you know, a kid spills their milk and it's like do you discipline them for that? It's like, well, okay, the times that I have done that, it's like was that about them or was that about me? It was deeply about me.
Speaker 3:It had nothing to do with them.
Speaker 3:And so when people, when anybody says that kind of stuff of like well, I and and you, it's such a presumptuous thing to be like I wouldn't have had this, you know, or you know, if I had this kid, I wouldn't have done this or whatever. It's funny because it assumes that, like God didn't know which kid you were going to get, and that it's not a project or, let's say, a child that he's specifically given to you to help you grow in an area of your life as well, like they're not the problem you are. I posted oh, tim, I posted this thing on Facebook. I'll never forget. It was like a year ago and I remember I had so many people blow up. They're like this is the kind of reasons why I hate Christians and what they say and whatever. I said this. I said children are not gosh. What was it exactly? It was like children are not a problem. They're just revealing your sin. That's what I said. I was like they're going to, they're going to show you things in your life that need to change and then you're going to be forced to become a better parent to actually raise them in the way that they're supposed to.
Speaker 3:And a bunch of people were like no way, I'm not the problem. They're definitely the problem, but wanted to say it in girl wash your face terms and everything else. I was like, dude, I started a fight with a bunch of girls on Facebook over this. I was posting it for the guys, I was posting it for the boys out there, like, hey, your kids aren't the problem you are. And all the women are like how dare you? Listen, it's real, I get it. Kids are hard. There's hard stuff. Not everything is sin. But I will say this kids reveal sin, man, they do. And God didn't wasn't. Again, it wasn't arbitrary. The kids you have, he picked for you, he chose them for you. I mean, and look, I'm a Calvinist, okay, I am a black coffee, drag myself across hot coals, calvinist. And I will say, hands down, no problem at all.
Speaker 3:Saying God put kids together and predestined them for you, and I mean, makes it very clear in Psalm 139 that their days were written before there was even one. He knows the first day, he knows the last day, he knows how many hairs are going to be on their head, he knows the lineage that they're going to be a part of what they're going to accomplish. And he chose your family. They're part of that story. That eternal soul is meant for you. It's supposed to be an arrow in your quiver. Here's what I know. It could be an arrow in your quiver if you're a wise person, or it'll be an arrow in your knee if you're a problem. And that's your choice. Right, you got to decide.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, okay, so you can either choose in the Christian life and so non-Christians it's like whatever, they're going to be messed up about these things. But for a Christian to argue points like you're making, it's like you could either choose to be crucified with Christ. Are you going to get crucified with Christ and come in and come into the fullness of God and and you know, like you know, do do those things, or are you going to, are you going to buck against that and be like I will not be crucified with Christ? And it's like, well, you're never going to come into abundant life, you are never going to come into the life that God has has made for you.
Speaker 2:Having kids is not easy. It is hard and there's a lot of hard work and there's all these beautiful things that go. But that's where all the beauty is, this is where all the most wonderful things are. So when the Christian refuses to be disciplined by God or refuses to be crucified with Christ, when they do that, it's like I guess you are saying no to the fullness of what God has for you.
Speaker 3:And here's where I'll finally make a balancing statement. Okay, because we said all that, and I think that's important, because I don't think the culture is like we're having too many babies. I think the culture is like how dare you have babies? Don't have babies, make it about you. You're not going to be able to travel. Also, you people that got married that are waiting until you're like 30 to have kids, I want you to know.
Speaker 3:The rate of divorce, when you don't have kids early on, skyrockets. It skyrockets because you're not committed to the same stuff, you don't have the same obligations and you start looking elsewhere. I mean, there's a lot of things that go into that, but having kids early, although you think may not be the best financial choice in a particular situation, is absolutely a great choice. A from a fidelity standpoint. B, from a purpose standpoint, because if your marriage is more than just about you, you're going to be fine, but if it's just about you, you're going to live selfishly, because your default is selfishness and comfort.
Speaker 3:Okay, that being said, my recommendation is at least three. I've said this before. Jesus tells us to be fruitful and multiply. Two is addition. Okay, if you have one, you didn't even replace yourself. Two we replaced ourselves. Three we did more than replace ourselves. My recommendation is three I'm doing more than that. I would say there might be strategic things that you're doing for the kingdom. We're in the same way that Paul says look, if you don't have to be married so that you can devote yourself fully to this, go ahead and do it. But he's talking about kingdom work. So, yes, if you're in freaking Africa and you are taking care of 56 orphans and you're about to have your 13th kid and you're not sure how you're going to feed the orphans, Okay, that's, that's great. We should think through that. And even then I would say, maybe God will provide what you need If the Lord's bringing them to it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just think there's situations where you could say I'm trying to dedicate myself to this particular thing for the Lord and I might say, okay, that at least makes more sense to me than I just want to travel, or I'm not financially set up yet, or my house isn't big enough yet. Those are not kingdom issues, those are comfort issues and we need to delineate between those two. Now, obviously there's like infertility stuff going on here we could have conversations about, and you know people are like man, I want to have a baby, I can't have a baby. That makes total sense. That's okay. That's different than saying we're not ready to have a baby yet because of X, x, y and Z. It's just. It's just different.
Speaker 1:You said something earlier, aj. We haven't touched fatherhood yet honestly, we're just talking about making babies. I know, prioritize, yeah, prioritize Um as a father.
Speaker 2:How do you prioritize your kid, kids, whatever any amount of age really with when it comes to scripture in life and like mostly trying to get like balance as a father, like work, wife, kids you know, bible you know it's a tricky balance and that, uh, I assume that when my kids grow up, uh, I hope that we have a really, really, really good relationship and they can tell me without, uh, without saying it and and and trying to be hurtful, like this is where you screwed up or this is, this is what was hard Cause I, I don't think like, I'm not trying to bat a thousand. I'm trying to do my very, very best um to to to be faithful to it. So, the times where I screw it up, I have to hear from my wife, like your kids need you, you need to, you need to, not, you need to, you need to be home. So I tried, I tried to listen to my wife and I try to listen to my kids, too, when they say things that are important, so like, and there's times where I screw that up, where you know, someone drew me a picture and I'm like that's great. And then, uh, so today I brought in a picture that was was drawn for me and it's like, okay, this is important to my daughter that I bring in this thing that she did, you know that she did.
Speaker 2:And, um, there's times where, dude, you just you screwed up, or you, you get inspired and you're like, oh yeah, I need to be reading um, reading the word out loud to my kids, or I need to be telling them Bible stories, or we need to really prioritize these things. And, man, there's times where I'm like I feel like I'm drowning and that like just trying to do that there's other guys that might be more organized or might have it more together, and I'm just like I try to do my best to hear the Lord in prayer of what is important in those moments and the times where it's like I got to go home early and go spend time with my kids.
Speaker 3:I would even say and this is just personal, I guess attempt at this consistency is great and we should shoot for that. I like having stuff on my calendar or planning stuff with the kids, like like here's what I mean. We do like date nights in my house. We're going to take the kids out, we have this. I talked, I talked about this, I think, the last podcast. We have this Boba place we go to and there's claw machines and we just we have a great time. All the kids are like dad, when's my date night? And then I take them out and I do the with dad. So it's like sometimes it's a date night and sometimes we're going to, we're going to pop up the laptop, we're going to go into dad's room and we're going to eat popcorn and Skittles and open that Dr Pepper mom said you couldn't have yesterday and we're going to like hang out and watch this movie and talk through it. Sometimes we paint together. My son loves to watch Bob Ross, we watch Bob Ross, we paint some stuff, and then he's like dad, can we fight now? And then we go outside and we beat each other to death with swords.
Speaker 3:What I was going to say is I think it's less about the amount of time, although that's important, there's something to be said about the quality of time that you spend with them, actually talking to them like do you know your kids? Do you know what they're not good at? Do you know what they're not good at? Do you know what they're good at? This is something I'm always trying to coach guys into with, like, even if you're leading teams at work or you're like you're just trying to think through, how do I help this guy get better? You need to know what people are good at and what they're not good at. It always bugs me when parents push their kids into stuff that stuff that they wanted to do not necessarily stuff that the kid wants to do because they just assume oh, he's a facsimile of me, I know what he needs. Well, it's like yeah, I mean some things, but they're different. I mean God gave you, god gave you. These kids are different. You need to know who they are. You need to spend enough time with them to learn who they are and you need to spend enough time with them to be able to help them work on who they are.
Speaker 3:And man, being a single mom or a single dad, this would be incredibly difficult, and so I think there's a lot of conversation we could have there. But I would say for the, for the average you know family who's kind of in that vein I would say, man, spend enough time with them to know who they are, be able to help them grow and what they're good at, and make sure you're getting to know their heart in that process. If you're doing that, you can do that with. I would say less time, that's more intentional, or more time, that's less intentional. But you're going to have to pick one of those. I would say a wise man who has a lot going on in his life and is trying to make an impact in different places doing different stuff. Make the time that you have with your family really impactful and you'll do a good job. But if you feel like I'm too busy so I don't have a lot of time, and then you don't even maximize on the time you do have, man, you're, you're dropping the ball in both, both areas.
Speaker 1:So what about, uh like reading scripture prayer, that kind of thing?
Speaker 3:I mean, if you're, oh my gosh, I just want to rant right now, tim. What are things you don't like? What are rules you have in your house, specifically what? Well, I'm asking you, what rules do you have in your house?
Speaker 2:Any, or is it like outback steakhouse? Yeah, bedtimes, no rules, just ride.
Speaker 1:Do you have bedtimes? We have routines. Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3:Do you force them to brush their teeth?
Speaker 1:Right now. Okay, hold on my teenager, yes, okay.
Speaker 3:Okay, how about this? Like I get into a list of things, would you be upset? Is it wrong in your house to lie? Yeah, okay. Is it wrong in your house to hit each other? Yeah, okay, you're forcing things on them, okay, okay, kids are not there. They don't know.
Speaker 3:Your goal is to teach them what they need to know, and we talked last time about the authority influence spectrum, right? Um, your kids are, are there to learn, and their brains are structured in such a way that they're they're trying to learn what is right, what is wrong, what's good, what's bad, what's evil, what's not. And if you're like I'm going to let them decide on their own what that's supposed to be, you are failing as a parent Hands down. God says you're supposed to raise your kids the right way to know what's supposed to happen, and kids that are unruly and monsters are like, are like judgment on your family, and so I just I detest that question because it's like yes, no matter what you're doing, you're teaching them what matters and what doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:You not being involved in something says it's not that big of a deal. You being involved in something says it's a bigger deal. Um, and sometimes the things you are involved in aren't good, and some of the things you're not involved in are good, and you should really think about what you're teaching them with your action or your inaction. But no matter what, you're imposing rules, you're imposing morality, you're imposing what you think on that. I mean, aj, would you disagree with that?
Speaker 2:No, I think I totally agree, and I think something that I was thinking when, as you were, as you're talking about that, is that the value you have for the things that you are teaching your kids, like, if you value education of God, is not just like this is something we have to do, you guys.
Speaker 2:But this is like this is coming out of the overflow of my heart, just like my value for humor is that like I want all my kids to be really funny and I want us to be able to joke around.
Speaker 2:If any of the kids were like I don't get sarcasm, like get out of here. It's like you're gonna have a really hard time in our home because it's gonna be very jokey, it's gonna be like that that's a value we have, yeah, and so when we talk about the Lord and like kids you know all my kids are like me in that way we start talking about Jesus and everyone gets teary and we just start getting like we love the Lord and we start talking about you know, my kids are probably better at like being disciplined and reading the word of God, and then that must be because of their mother. You know, like that, that's a value my, my wife has that. That's great, and it's like this is important, that we'd we'd get in the word of God, we'd sit down and get quiet and we do this. And so it's not something of like this is something we have to do, whereas like something like for me, brushing my teeth is not the most important thing.
Speaker 2:You know it's a it's something that it's just like I know I need to do this. And so if my kids are like, did you brush your teeth? You're like no, and I was like, ah, I get that. Yeah, I get that.
Speaker 3:And then those dental bills, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's you know. But like you are, like you're going to get out what you value, if you value, when people value football which I, you know, I don't but when people do, they just breathe it. It's just like they. You don't have to be like we need to make sure we talk about football for 20 minutes tonight. It's like they're already talking about it, that that's what they're doing. And so when someone's like I don't want to do this or impose this, it's like, well, the best thing you could do is start to you. If you really do want this for your life, you better, you better have a great value for it and start really loving it, and then that'll be the overflow of your heart. But if it's something that's not there, it's like, well, that's going to be really hard and the best thing you can do then is just get into it, like I guess, like I want to have this, but I don't have it. It's like get around people that are passionate about the Word of.
Speaker 1:God, I get that, but I mean, Justin and I we hung out with a bunch of homeschoolers, right, and a lot of the kids were like my dad made me wake up at 6 o'clock every morning and do a devotional. I just don't read the Bible anymore because I just hate it. It's just not fun. I just correlate it back to those times where I just disliked it.
Speaker 2:They could say that. But then if things get really, really hard and they hit rock bottom, and If the parents were doing it out of fear, they didn't actually love the word of God, right? Yes, that's what I was going to say. But there are people, I think, that they say I regret my parents doing this, and then things actually get hard and then it's just like, oh, like dude, okay, now this is a perfect example. No, this is stupid, but Terminator 2, right, I was going to say Star.
Speaker 2:Wars. John Connor hates his mother because his mother is a psycho. His mom was teaching him how to blow stuff up and how to be you know. His mom was telling him all these lies about him being the savior of the world. And then, all of a sudden, the reality of the Terminator comes upon him and he's like these things are real.
Speaker 2:And he's like I'm glad that now I know how to load guns and how to do all these things, and so sometimes kids might not understand it and be like I resent my parents for doing this and it's just like I'm trying to save your life and I'm not here to be your friend. Guess what? We're not friends. I'm your dad. I'm going to teach know how to do that. I like that, I think I mean, that's my story too.
Speaker 3:I mean you, you, you brought that up, but it's like that was. I mean I, we were up early in the morning every single morning, getting after it. It was very militant and I think, um to your point, aj, I do, you didn't not do it. You did exactly the thing that you set out to do. You just taught them the wrong thing instead of the right thing through that process. But here's what I know Super frustrating like for me when I was doing that, like school is when you're learning and don't want to and it's helpful.
Speaker 3:Now I'm a pastor and all the time my dad spent pouring in and teaching me about the word and what a concordance is and how to use it and why it matters shaped so much of my ability to help other people at this point, help other people navigate that stuff. I got an 18-year head start on my theological education that other people couldn't even scratch because my dad was a little crazy. Couldn't even scratch because my dad was a little crazy. And I think two things there One, you should be passionate about what you're teaching your kids, because you're teaching them, if you're passionate about it or not with your own behavior. And two, whatever happens, especially if it's something that God has told you to do, he's going to use it in a unique way. If you're really adamant about, like you know, doing some weird dance or something in your home and that's part of your identity, okay, maybe that's. Maybe it's helpful, maybe it's not helpful, but there are some things, like teaching your kids to love the word, that are incredibly helpful. And what's funny to me, tim is like I had a hard time with my dad because he was like that, and so I'm like a little trigger shy with my kids, like trying to teach them the word.
Speaker 3:And we sit down and we talk about the Bible and Fridays are like our Bible day. We're going to sing doxology, we're going to do the Lord's prayer together, we're going to do a little catechism, I'm going to open up the word. We did some stuff in Romans. Now we're going through John and it's weird to me that, like my kids are like wanting more.
Speaker 3:They're like no, dad, can we do it again today? Can we do it again today? Like we're in the middle of breakfast. Scarlett will just grab the Bibles and just put them on the table. Like dad, can we do another? And I'm sitting here like don't screw this up, this is awesome, this is really cool. Don't screw this up. And I'm like I'm not hurting you, right, like cause, cause, I, I really hated this. Do it well, but if you were weird and begrudging and trying to jam it down their throat, that's different. If you're being a good dad and you're helping them not just teach them the right things, but how to love the right things you're doing really well and I think that's important yeah.
Speaker 2:And I want to point out I think you're the John Connor of the church- you were raised up for such a time.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:And now people are like look like you have not just your kids, but you have people that are following a lot of the models that you're putting out. And you're like, well, I don't want to do this, but it's just like, yeah, but they're, they're following this, there's life in it and and I think where you using this dumb movie analogy- we're here now.
Speaker 3:We're locked in.
Speaker 2:It's working If the guy's mom in the movie is a nut and stuff, but John, people follow him and so it's like, well, why do they follow him? He has life and there's something there. And so even if you're screwing something up, but you're like I know it's important and it's like the best thing you could do is to love it and impart those things to your kids. But even if you're like I'm going to teach my kids the word of God and then they're going to hate me for it later, it's like that thing will not be a failure.
Speaker 3:Well, let's take it even a step further with what you're talking about. Okay, use this illustration or whatever. I will say this about my parents their goal was to prepare us, not to make it like some utopia. We were all best friends, were all best friends. They really did, like every one of my family is managing something, running something like is a leader, because my parents wanted to raise us to work really hard and to be leaders.
Speaker 3:Like, um, we could talk about the environment and different stuff, or you know, I didn't think this went right or that went right, whatever. But I will say this the goal for raising your kids is not that we have the best times at the home ever Although, man, you should make the home a sweet place that they love. The goal is to prepare your children for you not being there anymore. The goal is to prepare them Like here's the deal, those arrows that you let go, like you're not responsible for what happens to them when they're soaring through the air, but you're responsible for creating an environment that sets them up perfectly for when you're going to release them. You know, and and I think with our what you're talking about, john Connor went through this and then was actually prepared for what was coming later, and then he was able to lead others because he was prepared in a unique way. And I think our kids should be prepared to lead and be people in a unique way, especially in our generation where we're seeing all this crazy stuff come down the pipeline no one has a philosophy, no one understands a solid worldview, no one has a moral bedrock, not in the place that we live. When this crap hits the fan, you know who's going to rule this thing People who actually know who they are and how to bring structure and how to lead in difficult times and how to unite around things that matter. We need kids that are, that are knocked and ready to be launched into the next generation, cause I'm not going to be there later and and I need them to make an even bigger impact than I did.
Speaker 3:And if you think about Obed, you know, and you think about Boaz and you think about Jesse these people that came before Jesus, these people that, sorry, that came before David and then eventually, jesus right, but they lived in such a way that they were passing things on and their heritage is a heritage of righteousness that eventually begat a king who changed the entire world. Every single one of us, as parents, should be thinking this is not just a kid, this is not a nobody, this is somebody that God wants to use uniquely to change the world. And I think we should think that way, we should process that way and we should prepare our kids that way. They're not just our kids that we're raising up to be part of our family. They're immortal souls that God has called us to call up and send out so that one day, when you're long after you're gone, they are standing and fighting for the things that you were trying to fight for and you brought this up a while back but the outcomes for our kids aren't guaranteed.
Speaker 1:Right, we could do all these things and they could still wander away when they turn adolescent age or whatever. Right? What do you do with teenagers, or even older kids than that, that maybe grew up the way you guys are describing, but just don't want nothing to do with it anymore?
Speaker 2:I think what my mom would tell me when I, when I went away to Bible school in Northern Ireland, northern Ireland. She's like I prayed like crazy for you and um, I think my mom prayed like crazy for for all her kids and uh, but she said mom prayed like crazy for for all her kids and uh, but she said I especially prayed for you because you were just so out of control and um, I don't know. I just think like that we shouldn't undervalue prayer, like the power of a praying mom and dad and um, you know, you have these grandmas that pray for their grandkids and stuff. Just pray like crazy and it's just like ohkids and stuff just pray like crazy and it's just like, oh, it's like they're fighting the air and it's like, or they're accomplishing great, great things.
Speaker 2:I think that when we see with our kids, we need to pray like crazy because it is like this world wants to sift them. The enemy would love to sift them and take them for his own, and so we do our best, and then we call on the promises of God, and so we do our best and um, and then we call on the promises of God and we, and you know, when we see our kids. If they're going to drift, we don't ever let go. You just pray and you don't let go, and um, and that's where, and at the end of the day it's like, yeah, I guess we can't, we can't control them, we can't make them do what we want, but we can trust that God loves them more than we do and and we just yeah.
Speaker 3:Statistically, things go a lot better when dads are doing what they're supposed to be doing. Yeah, just being blunt, it's usually not the kids that that have landed there all by themselves. It's usually the dads that stopped trying along the way. There's, there's some stuff there I could get into it. I'm not saying that's every scenario. I am saying the statistics bear out pretty quickly. When dads are doing what they're supposed to be doing, families tend to follow suit and those kids become adults that follow suit.
Speaker 3:Where it doesn't work out is when dads are in prison, dads are lying, dads are hypocrites or dads are not involved. Look, I hate to say this because I don't want to be part of the culture that beats the crap out of dads and says if you guys just get your life together, they could be fine. We need to call men up and encourage them and build them up, because the reality is we've been so crushed under the weight of it's all your fault, not just from the world, but from every pulpit that I know of, every pulpit that I know of. We need to call men up and encourage them and give them places of honor and help put the sword back in their hand so that they can do a good job and not immediately be the helicopter mom that oh no, he's going to shoot your eye out. Take that from him. We need to be okay doing that and helping build them back up. That being said, I really do believe that if you are a solid dad that loves Jesus, is praying for your kids, loves your spouse even if there's some weirdness for a little while, generally speaking, those kids come back around.
Speaker 3:The times where they don't come back around or things go off pretty radically is usually when there was a massive problem, fallout issue, huge divorce, infidelity, dad stopped going to church, dad was a liar and was just watching porn the entire time. He didn't care about. You know what I mean. Like those things come out. That's the stuff that ends up. That's the stuff that sends kids in a spiraling in a direction that they were never meant to go. And that's not because they you know they couldn't have been or done something awesome, but, uh, purely because, uh, the thing that was supposed to be stable the bow, um, that was supposed to get locked in and ready to launch them went cattywampus at the last minute and it shoots them off.
Speaker 3:And you and you pray that arrow straight, but oftentimes it's, it's messy, and so, again, I don't want to be the guy that just sits here and bash dads. I'm not going to do that. I think they need called up. I think they need encouraged and some fresh life breathed into them.
Speaker 3:But I think one of the reasons that I'm so desperate to call men up and call dads up, pour into them and call men to more is because I really do believe that if they will take a stand and they see in themselves what God has put in them, we can actually change so many things Families get better, marriages get better, lives get better and the priorities get changed in a whole new way too. But as long as men see themselves as nothing and garbage and good for nothing and it's all my fault, then they're going to continue to. We're going to continue to live in the same cycle of destruction that we've been seeing and we're going to have nobody but feminists and you know, honestly, in some places, pulpits to blame for it who sit there and blame men for everything, champion women and then wonder why it's all going south Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good and I like that the men would value themselves, like if they would value themselves as the bow, like I need to be strong and then have the value, like, while we were talking about this value for kids at the beginning, if you see how lovely they are and how unique they are and, like man, this is a gift from God and then that makes you want to stay strong for them. So I think putting proper value on things like that like I am God, put me here and gave me these children because I am like he's saying I'm valuable and he's trusting me with these things I think it's why are we so messed up? Because we have all these misplaced value systems? Yeah, we've, we put our, we've put our hope and our love towards things that are just stupid and frivolous.
Speaker 2:But if it's like if we would love jesus with all of our hearts and be like and what else do we love? Oh, my gosh, we love family. And then it's just like why are these people prospering? It doesn't make sense that they would have seven kids and that they're giving themselves over to a person they can't even see. And it's like, yeah, they're the happiest people in the world. It's like why is that? But maybe God's real, maybe the Bible is not lying to us.
Speaker 3:Can I touch on that too, because you brought up something that my wife said to me the other day and I was just wrecked by it. I was like, oh, that's so good Cause. I think, implicitly, I knew it. But like she said it and I was like, yes, this is accurate. She was saying, um, whenever you think about how to like punish your kids or whatever he said, he, she said, you don't want to punish them with family.
Speaker 3:She's like because the home should be the place that people want to hang out and be a part of and feel like is a special environment. Later on, she's like whether you're doing like Sabbath dinners or birthday parties or whatever, people shouldn't the kids should walk into your house later and be like, man, I hated this place or this sucked, or you know this was going on or that was going on. It should be a place where they walk into and be like oh man, I'm loved here, this is it, I love being in this particular environment. And she was like so the way that even you think about grounding kids, you know what I mean. It's like so if they can't go out, they can't go anywhere. Well, did you just? Did you just make the home a prison in a way that actually makes it an awful place that they don't want to be in now, and the opposite of that is what you're actually trying to accomplish, which is no, I want you to love home, I want you to love family.
Speaker 3:And now we did this backwards. Listen, you could, you can remove the punishment aspect from it if you want to, but the reality is this, and this is what you're saying Home should be a place where it's like we love family, we love our house, we love what we're doing. And that starts at the top. That doesn't start with the kids making the parents happy. That starts with the parents helping show the kids how to have a good time. And if your kids are pissed off and angry and that you don't like family, man, how do you think your kids are going to be? They're your fault. What's going on with them is a reflection of you, and if you're not allowing again those kids to reveal your sin, clean you up and help it become a better environment, it'll only be your fault when they don't want to hang out around the house later on. That's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is interesting. I was grounded a lot as a kid.
Speaker 3:Tim's like resonate big time, Big time.
Speaker 1:Before we end this, we had somebody write in a question. It really doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about, but since I have both of you, you both have daughters Perfect, I have daughters. The idea of asking the father's blessing before the get married where does that come from? And is that still important? Like, does that matter?
Speaker 2:Oh man, I'm curious.
Speaker 1:It's so important.
Speaker 2:You guys are more seasoned than I am, so I so when I had to ask my wife's dad if I could date her first, and um, and that was that was important and that's something I'm totally going to do. Um, no, some knuckleheads that wants to date my daughter, it's like you over my dead body, you know. It's like you, come, come If you are, if you're a young man, that is just like I could see you auditioning for spouse and that, that, uh, that somebody like hey, you might be, you might be the man for the job. Okay, cool, come, show me what you're all about, what you want to do. Then, if I like you, you can date my daughter. So you think some knucklehead that's like smoking pot and is like, hey, I'm going to take your daughter out. It's just like I'm going to beat the crap out of you. No, I'm going to fight you. Then I'm going to go find your dad and go fight him for not doing a good job with you. And then you know like, no, okay, and so for marriage.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Like, my daughter belongs to me, she is my she's, she's my daughter. When that. That's why at the wedding, the pastor says who, who gives this one away? And then the dad or, you know, sometimes the mom and dad say her mother and I do. Or the dad says, I do you like she belongs to her father. And then you're giving her to a husband to belong to that husband. Now that now the dad is not, I'm still your dad, I'm still going to do this. It's like now my hands are off, now you belong to this young man. So that young man is going to marry this girl and he's like, well, we'll just go alone, but we'll go do this. It's like so you stole her.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is a covenant question, so obviously Old Testament perspective. If you want to marry someone's daughter, you go to the father, you ask for permission to marry his daughter and usually you're giving him some kind of like compensation for what he's done. Why giving him some kind of like compensation for what he's done? Why? Because he's losing something wonderful and going out of his way to entrust you with it. This is supposed to be the perspective. The father is a head of a home and is the protection and covering for the investment that is his daughter, the kingdom, you could say wealth that is his daughter. Now, this is true of sons as well, but it's a different environment because fathers are supposed to be, let's say, the functional head of the household for their daughters, not just their wives, to go to the covenant head and say, hey, I am a sufficient covering, I will take care of her, I can protect her, I can cover her the way that you would require, the way that you would ask in a sufficient way. Because the reality is is, once she leaves that covering, once this girl moves from father to this man, she's putting a crown on his head and saying, okay, you're the head, you are the king of this household and I'm going to submit to you. She's putting a crown on his head and saying okay, you're the head, you are the king of this household and I'm going to submit to you. That is a heck of a thing to do. So, one, the father should be involved because it's been his investment time caring for this person, raising them up, providing, protecting, and two, because he should protect her from idiots who cannot actually provide and protect. So if your daughter is dating somebody and this guy hasn't asked for permission first, it's a lot harder for you to step in and say you're done, goodbye. If your daughter is dating this guy and he came up and asked you first, what he's done is invited you into the process, and that means we get to have a conversation. Is invited to you into the process, and that means we get to have a conversation. And the second that she says no, I'm done. Oh, all that girl has to do is say dad, no, not him. And then dad gets to step in and say, yeah, you're not allowed in the house anymore, we're done. Thank you so much, appreciate you, I appreciate the time. But then he's in the process and is able to continue to be a covering and a protection for her, because she is not her own. She belongs to the father and the father is responsible before God.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that whole eloping idea is this idea of I'm actually running away from the covering. It's a prodigal marriage is what it is. I'm running away from the covering. I don't want your protection, I don't want your help. I don't want to do this the right way. I'm running away and I'm going to risk it. I'm going to do what I want to do and be who I want to be. It's my body. But yeah, the covenant head is really this picture of inviting a provision and a protection into the process to make sure that your daughter is cared for in that. So 100%, you should ask that. I mean my, my daughters already know um, daddy gets to say no to anybody that he wants to if he doesn't trust them, because they're supposed to trust me enough to know and see something in them that is wrong, that they may not see yet. And that building that trust to starts now with my kids.
Speaker 1:What about the fathers you mentioned, like the ones who aren't around, the ones in jail?
Speaker 2:the ones who just don't care, like at all, who, whatever, or you know, you still want to ask them, or is it kind of, yeah, I would. I would tell a young man that said there's somebody recently that said, what do I do? Their dad is not honorable at all. So to honor him and and invite him back into that and like you don't have to go blame him for all the things he did wrong, but be like I, hey, I, I love your daughter and I'd like to, I'd like to marry her. You know, um, if you honor that guy, then he's all of a sudden he's invited, like there's a repentance that can happen. He might be like, uh, like, sure, you don't even have to ask me, but it's like no, no bad thing comes from generally trying to be kind to people.
Speaker 3:Comes from generally trying to be kind to people. True, like you're not going to get bad things coming from. Even if somebody is a jerk, it's not bad to try to be kind to somebody. The exception I would make is if her father's a Satanist that hates Jesus and hates her because she's become a Christian and she's out of that place. Cool, yeah, she's not under his headship. Why? Because his father is Satan. So her functional headship at that point is either becoming the pastor of that church, who's helping at some level provide in that capacity, or you know somebody close to her that's more of a father figure that's taken on that role.
Speaker 3:But yeah, there could be complicated situations, but I would say in general yes, you should ask for permission and it's old fashioned and it's a great, wonderful defense mechanism that's meant to be built in to protect families, protect girls and their hearts and protect masses from happening before they happen. And in our feminazi you know, crazy world, we've we've removed this, we've devalued men, we blame them for everything and then we're mad at them for not providing the very thing that we've shamed them for Right.
Speaker 2:So let me, I want to say this I want my daughters to be prizes. I want them to be like these, beautiful, like diamonds. And my sons I want them. Someday when I'm like I want you to go out and find a diamond, go find this diamond of a girl, and when you do that and you go to her dad and you're expressing this is your daughter is precious and valuable to me. That's what I'm, that's what I'm doing. And so someday, when some, if there's a boy, that's like, mr Hupp, I love your, I love your daughter and she's a precious diamond.
Speaker 2:It's like, okay, you get it now. You, okay, you understand, okay, you understand anyone that comes in is like I don't think that, that you know what's one thing to do with another. It's like, well, okay, you, you're showing me you don't have a value for these things. Like, someday I want my sons. It's like if you have to go out there and you have to go work for it, you gotta go. Like, you gotta, you, gotta make sure that this guy, this guy believes that you, that you, she's a diamond, then do it, go earn, go earn it, go make, go make it happen. And you know when there's, when there's a lack of that, for for young men. It's just like like well, I was just hoping it would just like kind of fall into my lap and it's like why do we? Of course, our, our society is just like a loser mentality, like whatever happened to to raising up champions and raising up, you know, like these knights that are going to go win the princess. Of course you have a whole society of just couch potatoes.
Speaker 3:It's like no daughters. You're a princess On the morphine drip of pornography, playing video games, getting, you know, disgusting and out of weight and wondering why nothing's getting conquered, nothing's getting built. You know, it's horrible. What's happened to young men? It's horrible. I'm really trying to go to war with that. I know most of us here are and are trying to call young guys out of that crap and call them up and put a sword back in their hand, but it's, it's hard work we need a john connor.
Speaker 2:Come on, man, let's go we got real.
Speaker 1:We got real well hey aj, thanks for man. It was a lot of fun having both of you on.
Speaker 2:That was the Terminator song by the way, that was it. We knew I didn't. I was there for you, the audience that was.
Speaker 3:He just thought he was blowing his nose into the microphone. Hey, for the record, that's a great question and I appreciate people. That are important things that are worth talking about. But, yeah, enjoyed the conversation and definitely been praying for you guys and for your families, those of you that are listening throughout just walking through this, especially for dads and fathers it's hard Got a couple of texts from guys that aren't even dads yet. Shout out to Sean just talking about thinking through hey, how do I do this? Well, it helps me think about the spouse that I want to have and how I want to navigate this stuff. Dude, if we can eliminate bad decisions and stupidity before you find yourself in a place where you have to have certain types of wisdom, praise the Lord. Let's avoid any more branches down the stupid tree. Let's do it right, cool.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me guys, Absolutely as always man.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
