Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Discovering Divine Patterns: Embracing Hope and Heroism in Ministry and Life
TJBHpodcast@gmail.com
Have you ever wondered how the tapestry of your life's experiences could transform your ministry? Join us in welcoming back Justin and introducing Nick, a fellow pastor whose wealth of insights enrich our conversation. We explore the profound influence of personal stories in ministry, illustrating how life patterns, like the biblical narrative of Dagon and the Ark of the Covenant, offer opportunities for learning and spiritual growth. This episode reminds us that in Christ, nothing is coincidental, urging us to pay attention to the divine patterns guiding our spiritual journey.
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate. I'm with Justin, he's back. I am he's back in the whatever you call this room.
Speaker 2:I feel like we should like I should play back in black right now or something, you know, just for some. But then we get some kind of copyright thing and get closed down, probably. But I am back. You are back, yes, guys, it has been way too long. I'm sorry you are back, guys, it has been way too long, I'm sorry. The devil can't make you bad, he makes you busy.
Speaker 1:It is Justin's fault and I have been made busy.
Speaker 2:I want to be known.
Speaker 1:It is all his fault.
Speaker 2:Although Tim was also on vacation for one of those weeks. So I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it we were out training pastors and kicking butt taking names, had a couple of difficult weeks where we needed to cover some stuff with some people who were just walking through hell. Yeah, quite, literally. Yeah, so glad to be back, man. Yeah, and we got a buddy today.
Speaker 1:I brought a friend. We have a third Old Guthrum. Guthrum, just kidding. No, we have one of the pastors on staff, nick. What's up, man?
Speaker 3:No, we have one of the pastors on staff, nick. What's up, man hey?
Speaker 1:what's up, guys? And we use that term loosely around here. That's true, oh, pastor. Yeah, sometimes it's reverend Sometimes it's.
Speaker 2:Lord Protector.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Can we bring that up the other day?
Speaker 2:Lord Protector, yeah, yeah because that was Oliver Cromwell's title and I'm always like, like, if I ever actually arrived, it would be Lord Protector. Nick, what would your title be? You could pick one title Vader.
Speaker 3:I can't say it on air, okay fair is this a Christian podcast for now?
Speaker 1:we'll see where it goes we'll have people email in and we'll just have you reply to them that's right, yeah, exactly we brought Nick in because you guys were talking about something that I thought was interesting and worthy of bringing up, and how our life stories affect ministry today. Yeah, jeez, just the brief conversations I've had with you, nick. It sounded like you kind of have a crazy one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do, man. It's pretty cool because Justin has the gift of seeing things in the future. He's a prophet, Dang more titles yeah, he's a prophet, but yeah, it's pretty cool because some of the things you talk about that's normal to you, justin being the awesome pastor that he is and really he's my you're my daddy.
Speaker 2:Yeah the Guthrum. Is that what you said? Oh no, no, you're my daddy. Yeah the Guthrum. Is that what he said? Oh no, no, you're my daddy. He's my adopted daddy. He's my spiritual father.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but he sees the good in things and he's able to see sermons and illustrations in ways that's disproportionate than I've ever seen before, and that's one of the things that he brought up that I never even considered until he mentioned it.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just think everything in your life that happens at some level if you're in Christ, becomes a gospel story.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, tim, he says in Ecclesiastes right, there's nothing new under the sun, there's nothing new actually going on that hasn't happened to somebody else before. All the great lessons we learn are lessons that we're continuing to learn again and again because we're we're stupid. Yeah, you know what I mean. Um, you know the story of, you know dagon and the temple oh, that's my favorite with, uh, with the ark of the covenant, I think.
Speaker 2:I think it's was it first samuel 5 or second samuel 5? But they bring, you know, the, the philistines, you know, capture the ark of the covenant, they bring it in and they put in the altar of or in the temple of Dagon. And then in the temple of Dagon, the first night, you know, they spend the night there. And the next day they come in and like his arms fell off. And so here's what they do. They don't make any connection. They're like, hmm, that's weird, that's strange that that happened. And so they then take his arms and they try to put his arms back on, and then they're like okay, buddy, you're fine again. And then the next day it says that he is prostrate. Yeah, dagon, and you can imagine, these statues are not like little baby statues, like this is a big, massive statue Drop down. It literally says his arms then break off again and his head comes off and he's literally prostrate before the Ark of the Covenant. So literally you have this picture of the god of the Philistines laying prostrate, crushed, before the Ark of the Covenant. And this goes on because they hand that around to other people and it says they get tumors Some translations will translate it hemorrhoids, which is like wow, that's rough, god, I can't believe you did that to them. Some places it says that they were covered in like rats basically became a massive problem in these areas. So they send the Ark of the Covenant back.
Speaker 2:I say this to say, as Christians, we should pick up on patterns and we shouldn't see, we shouldn't believe in coincidence. You know what I mean. We serve a God that works in patterns and is teaching us these same principles again and again, because so often we don't pick up on them or we're dense, we're dull. We don't learn the gospel, oftentimes in situations when it is the most clear. It tells us that the God of this world has blinded the eyes of unbelievers so that they would not see the truth and turn to him, and that's why you have them.
Speaker 2:Putting Dagon's arms back on Like this is fine, nothing weird about that. Sometimes arms fall off of the giant statues that you have randomly and I just think as Christians, we should never have that lens. In fact, the second you become saved, I feel like this wonderful thing happens to you and Nick speak to this. You can look back on your life and you start to see God working in all the situations in your past, not just in your present. Oh yeah, absolutely Like you're like. Oh, that was the.
Speaker 3:Lord. What's funny is, when you mention it, it immediately comes to mind is Goliath Philistine lied, prostrate, face down, lost his head oh, same story.
Speaker 2:Wow, isn't that pretty cool. So weird how that happens. A little bit of biblical knowledge for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly A little bit of David in my life.
Speaker 2:Another copyright problem, sorry, anyways, I was going to bring up Dagon next. I won't. But okay, so I brought this verse up a billion times, tim, but Romans 15, 4. But okay, so I brought this verse up a billion times, Tim, but Romans 15, 4,.
Speaker 2:Whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and encouragement of the scriptures, we might have hope. I think God has wired the grand story into all of our hearts in such a way that when we look back at our past, we get to see hope instead of destruction. And in the same way, we should be able to look at other people's pasts and what has happened and then have hope. Why? Because the one thing that you are supposed to carry into the future, if you're a Christian, is hope. You were meant to have that. God has gifted that to you. Why do we take the cup of thankfulness? So that we would have hope and remember that Christ has accomplished everything.
Speaker 2:But I just I think it's important that as Christians, we learn to see the grand story in every story and oftentimes in our past, I just think we walk through stuff and again in hindsight or as we look at it now, I'm like, oh man, there's okay, there's. You'll hear people say that'll preach. Right, there's a sermon there. Why is it hard for us to think that way? I guess is the question, why is it hard to teach people to think in those biblical narratives? And then maybe another question would be then how then do you teach people to start thinking in those narratives? Yeah for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's painful, right? I mean, we have different paths. Everybody has their own walks. Yes, we get this victim mentality. Yeah, a lot of us do. No, we get this victim mentality?
Speaker 3:Yeah, a lot of us do. No, dude, I want to pull on that thread. That's good. Well, it's interesting too, because you're supposed to have a ministry of reconciliation. That's what you're given. So how are you going to go preaching unless you yourself have experienced that? And each ministry of reconciliation looks different with everyone's life. But it doesn't invalidate their story, it just looks differently. You mentioned the thread. What thread was? And we were just talking about I got that amnesia, just getting the. Uh, you got that victim mentality yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:That's it. Thank you sorry. I had a biden moment you did.
Speaker 3:I need my handler um want some ice cream well, it's victim mentality, because it's um, in my experience, that's a, that's a pride thing, because people that do that they refuse and I mean this lovingly and I could absolutely be wrong, but they refuse to be reconciled. Because it's a pride thing, because you can justify your bad behavior. You can justify disrespecting someone, you can justify your behavior because you were harmed. So, instead of seeking forgiveness and actually looking to reconcile, you have a way to try to lord it over someone to justify really bad behavior, and that's just a. That's the victim mentality that I've seen in the world and I could have been susceptible to that if I'd have gone a different route.
Speaker 2:You know, it's funny that you say that because we were talking about what. What makes people blind to it? And I think Satan blinds people to the refrain of every story that is told, which is that God ultimately redeems those things. God ultimately uses those things, god ultimately works in and through those things to bring about his good purpose, right. So in every story in the Bible that you read, you look back at it and you're like, oh, I see how God used this for this and this and this and this, right. But if you don't have hope, if you are living in a victim mentality, you refuse to see the gospel and what's happening and ask me later on this, tim, why this is connected to BLM and liberation theology and some of this different stuff. But there's a song that I love, tim, called Embracing Accusation. It's one of my favorite songs by this band named Shane and Shane.
Speaker 2:The song, the whole song, is about how Satan loves to preach the first half of the gospel to people and leave out the last half, leave out the second half. He basically says the father of lies coming to steal, kill and destroy you know all this different stuff. And he says I hear him singing over me. You know, the penalty of sin is death. Death is mine. You know this whole idea. And he says the devil singing over me, the same old song that I'm cursed and gone astray, singing the same verse. So conveniently, he's forgotten the refrain Jesus saves Like. And it's awesome because it culminates in that moment and I'm just like yes, you know, it's glorious, but it is this picture that it's like.
Speaker 2:Even Satan can't get away from telling the truth. He only works in half-truths. So he's going to get you to focus on the death. He's going to get you to focus on look, they killed Christ. Look, they destroyed him. Look, nobody listened to him. Look, god himself came and they didn't pay attention to him. What does he forget? Oh, I got my butt kicked by the king when he was resurrected and took the keys to the king. All authority in heaven and earth is given to him.
Speaker 1:He doesn't listen to that part. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly. The whole point is that, yes, you can actually accept all of those accusations and it doesn't have to destroy you as an individual, because the reality is the greater the darkness, the grander the light, the great. You know where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. As dark as that story gets, christ is overcoming even that and then if you have a heart that's full of hope, you're able to see those stories and look for the light and pull on that scarlet thread that is in every single story. But if you are living as a victim, you're going to continue to hear the first part of the gospel, which is all of sin and falling short of the glory of God all of it's a mess, all of it's bad and miss the crucifixion and resurrection that comes directly after Tim, that'll preach, that's it right there.
Speaker 1:Well, let me ask you then, Nick, going back to kind of like the patterns we see in our lives when we get saved and we kind of look back like, oh, that was God, like was that an easy transition for you or anybody? Really Is that something that we're like? Oh you know, my past is the past. I'm good, I got God.
Speaker 3:Nothing I got God. Nothing good comes from stuff that's easy. I mean, I think, the Marine Corps boot camp. You know 20 years serving the Marine Corps, you know things that are worth. Things are going to be hard. So, no, it's not easy at all, but I really do think it starts with hope, understanding the hope that we have, the hope of glory, and understanding the redemption and the fact that God chose to use you. He doesn't have to, but he wants to, and I think the more broken you are, the greater the light shines, the more hope other people have, because you think that your story, no one else is going through it. But that's just not true and that's not been my experience at all.
Speaker 2:Tell me this came up because you were telling me a story, yeah, and I don't know if you are okay with sharing it. Oh yeah okay with sharing it. Oh yeah, I'm gonna look baby, the one about you, uh, the one about you swimming out and saving that guy, I'll shoot that.
Speaker 3:You tell that story.
Speaker 2:I thought you're gonna go to my family. Well, this is, this is where that. Why would you do? Hey, we can do the family too. But yeah, I remember you telling me that story. I was like, oh my gosh, there's so much jesus, yeah, in that story. And you know, look, I know you're gonna, I know you're gonna try to beat yourself up in this story. I would like you to just tell the story, okay, cool.
Speaker 3:So we went to. We went. It was when I was stationed in North Carolina. It's called Emerald Island. There's a beach there, so we were all swimming, and one of our friends went there and it was me, another guy who was my friend, and then this guy who was. He was a new guy, so we didn't really know him well enough, but he was a Marine, and when I looked at him, look, he was drowning.
Speaker 3:Me being the great guy I am, one of my gifts is sarcasm. I'm like bro swim man, and he's like Nick, I can't swim. And I'm like you tell me this now. And I'm literally, as he's drowning, like you telling me this now, bro, quit pulling my leg. His face, though, confirmed what was reality, and that's when it hit me was seeing the fear in his face that this guy can't swim, and what we found out was basically, we're in a rip current.
Speaker 3:So, as he's getting sucked out, I then, at that moment, kick in. I'm like, well, you're not going to die on my watch. So I swam into the rip current because you know, maybe our friend, you know we may not be close, but he's a Marine, and I value loyalty, integrity and courage are three things that I value in life. So you're out there on my watch, man, I've got to have some loyalty there. I'm going to go swim out there and I've got to have some courage, because I'm not the greatest swimmer, I'm not Michael Phelps. So I jump in there and we swim and I go grab him and I start getting sucked out too. So my buddy looks at me and my buddy's out on the side. He's like Nick, you know what are you doing? Cause I kept going underwater pushing him up. I kept going underwater pushing him up.
Speaker 3:So, as we're getting sucked out, I'm trying to hold him up, but I'd go down touch, cause you know you can only carry so much. You push up't come help. I was like we're both gonna die. And he's like he laughs. I was like no, seriously, he's like we're both gonna die. I was like but I'm not gonna let him go. I was like I'm not gonna let him go. I was like, if you don't come help me as I, then we're both gonna die. I refuse to leave him. Um, so then my buddy comes in and then we start alternating. We're swimming laterally, because now, in a rip current, it takes you out, so you have to swim laterally. So, as we're swimming laterally, we're now changing positions. You know, one dragon one's pushing up, then the other one goes down, so we were able to get him out of there. And the cool thing is, you know, I got a life-saving award from that one from the Marine Corps. So I actually got a life-saving award for that, which is freaking awesome, but okay.
Speaker 2:So he tells me that story, you know, just off the cuff, like it just came up and you like begrudgingly told it to me Because this guy's like I never want to be the hero in my own story or whatever. I'm like dude, listen, that's just a cool, freaking story. I was like if you don't see the hands of Jesus all over that story, you know what I mean. I'm like okay, you got baptism into death there. You got the work of the Holy Spirit, you got the work of Jesus in that situation. You got the work before salvation and how he had to get you to that place. You have the reality that unless God goes and saves you, you're not going to make it. You didn't save yourself, and I mean honestly, you shouldn't even have been there in the first.
Speaker 2:Everything about that story to me is like, dude, god is so good and in that moment there's this picture of even in our worst moments, we have this clock in us. Yeah, that knows the right time. Yeah, you know, we have this conscience. That's like, yeah, but even then, and you weren't saved at that point, right? No, yeah, wow, and I'm sure you were hell on wheels for a little while. But even then you knew.
Speaker 1:Very kind. But even then you knew hey, I'm not going to leave somebody out here to die.
Speaker 2:And I think stories like that are important for us to look back on and be like okay, if I really do believe that God is sovereign, if I believe that he's the one that brought me to repentance, then it doesn't mean I was floating around in the void and then God found me and then it was like oh, before that we didn't interact.
Speaker 2:You know me and Jesus bumped into each other, and now things are different. Before that we didn't interact. You know me and Jesus bumped into each other, and now things are different. It actually means that God uniquely predestined me before the foundation of the world has been working in my life and on my heart from the day that I was born technically before I was born up to the point of salvation, where he actually introduced himself to me as the person who was standing underneath me and holding my head above water so I could breathe and did not die until he brought me back to the shore so that I could have life.
Speaker 3:I mean it's amazing. It's amazing Went into the chaos, went into the rip. Come on, man, that's the story of Jesus. That's exactly it. Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 2:God so loved the world doesn't mean that he just pulled over on the side of the road. It means he descended out of perfection into chaos and came in as part of the chaos. You know what I?
Speaker 1:mean he didn't walk in on a stallion, he's like.
Speaker 2:I'll be part of the chaos. I'll be called a bastard child. I'll look this part. People think I'm nothing like crazy to me.
Speaker 1:You mentioned just briefly though, about not wanting to be the hero of your own story. But we all kind of want that, don't we? Is it wrong to think in that light?
Speaker 3:I don't know. I mean I think of Tony Stark right now, edith, you know, even dead, I'm the hero. Jesus could say that in three days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go boom.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you do. I mean, if you're not the hero of your own story, I mean, christ is essentially, is what it boils down to.
Speaker 1:So I think there's something ingrained in us that points to him. I think that's the Christian thing, right? It's like no, no, god did this. I wasn't that good.
Speaker 3:It's either Christ or it's going to be yourself. I think of ego. When I was going through seminary, we were taught ego means two things either EGO, either edging God out or exalting God only. So it's going to be one of the two things. It's either going to be edging God out where you're the hero, or it's exalting God only realizing that you were dead and you needed a savior and only he had the ability and authority to step into the chaos, to save you and to bring you to safety. So ego is one of those two things.
Speaker 2:There's a reason why nobody in the kingdom walks with a limp Tim and nobody walks with bobbin head and shoulders up, and it's because there's always two sides of it. Christ is the hero in every story and the reality is every hero we have in Scripture. Was God working through that person? What gives these people in the Bible the cojones to stand up and say I defy you in the name of the living God you know Like, hold up, you get to speak on behalf of God.
Speaker 3:That's hmm, that might be a little unprideful right.
Speaker 2:But you have people all throughout Scripture standing up and, in the name of God, saying this is what's going to happen and this is how it's going to happen, and being that person and we would look at them and we would see courage and heroism and glory and all these things and it's like, okay, so it sounds like to be Christ-like. I am to have a kind of a hero complex.
Speaker 2:And I don't mean to be a hubris-load loaded, problematic child who is obsessed with his own story. I mean, you should be so obsessed with the story of Christ that you start to look like him in the life that you live, and that means you end up doing some stuff that you probably wouldn't have done otherwise, not because you are awesome, but because you know God is awesome. And if God is in you, then I get to live differently than I would have. Yeah, and it's a different mentality, but I agree.
Speaker 2:So you don't want to be the hero of your own story, because Christ is the hero of your own story. But you realize that if Christ is the hero of your story, then I get to live a pretty awesome life in representing him. Yeah, and if I'm full of the living God?
Speaker 3:man, I get to walk into the fire. Yeah, you're either courageous or you're a coward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's up to you. When you have the Holy Spirit in you, you're either courageous or you're a coward and people that are like you know I don't want to be. It sounds prideful, it sounds like you're just being safe and you're calling it wisdom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we all know those pastors too that are like this guy's only praying like this in our circle because he wants to sound better than the rest of us.
Speaker 2:Sometimes their pants are really tight.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's funny talking about this because you preached a few weeks ago, which probably was one of your better sermons. By the way, I still love it. But you did a—you related Christianity with hypothermia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good yeah.
Speaker 1:I was sitting next to one of our other pastors and I told him he saved a woman in the woods from hypothermia. But you never brought that up and I thought you were. That's where you were going.
Speaker 2:That was a different story. That was a different story.
Speaker 1:But it held onto it. You know what I mean she wasn't hypothermic.
Speaker 2:She was in renal failure on the top of a mountain because they didn't bring a water purifier where there was no clean water. And then there was another dude who was dying of hypothermia. It was a different time.
Speaker 3:That'll preach Exactly.
Speaker 1:I'm just bringing that up because this whole hero thing. Right, we don't want to be the hero because we don't want people to look at us in a certain way, right?
Speaker 3:Well, I think any times you take the focus off of crisis where you get in trouble. But if God's going to use my life to magnify him, yes and amen and bring it on. That's why I'm not ashamed about sharing my whole testimony with everyone, because God can use my story to bring God glory. So, like when I was younger, for instance, some of the things like big three things that happened to me was number one my mom tried to kill me twice, so she struggled with alcohol, she would drink and we were in a pontiac trans. Am the old, uh, the old happy gilmore ones? You know the old, uh, brown ones?
Speaker 2:um, the middle seat in the front 100, so I remember being in the back throws uh fries on her.
Speaker 3:Get out of here, take what you want.
Speaker 2:Oh my god he uses the wipers to try to get her off the car, but I remember vividly being in the back seat.
Speaker 3:I was in the back right and I see the oak tree in front of us and she just slams on the gas and she's going about 60 miles an hour and hits the tree. That happened to us twice, so I remember that vividly. I remember my mom when we were driving down the street because my dad were Italian, so my dad would beat the crap out of my mom and beat the crap out of me. Like my nose is actually crooked because my dad's broke it. It's not because I was a fighter, but even though it makes me look cool, my dad broke it.
Speaker 3:So now if I look cool, I'm like yeah.
Speaker 1:You're the Marine guy. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Chicks dig scars. But my dad beat my mom and I'm being beat Like beat the crap out of them and beat the crap out of me. I remember driving down the road and getting my head smashed against the window because I got a C on a report card and he would hit it and it was like a good rubber ball effect you hit it, bounce comes back. It was good volley with tennis. Serena Williams couldn't do a better job than that. But I remember my dad driving. I remember my mom hating life so much she opens the car door, jumps out of the car at 60 miles an hour trying to kill herself in front of me.
Speaker 3:My uncle sexually assaulted me three different times and I could tell you vividly where I was, what was going on. So I mean, yeah, but God has used that in my life. So if anyone has a reason to be a victim, I could tell you yes and amen. Because I came from the trailer park. That could be a sermon from the park to being a pastor from park to pastor there you go PP, baby.
Speaker 1:I grew up in a trailer park too. I didn't go anywhere near what you just mentioned.
Speaker 3:But God, I share that and I share it proudly. If you can say that word, I'm not ashamed of it. I'm not going to be ashamed of it Because there are many other people that have gone through something similar. And here I am and God has used me and called me into his marvelous light To the point where now I am a I'm fulfilling my calling as a pastor. I have five kids. We lost two kids due to ectopic pregnancy. My wife almost died, but God has used my life and my story To reveal himself.
Speaker 3:So one of the things that I've realized through that is I have a gift of faith because I have seen God show up and show out. So it is easy for me to take leaps of faith because I've seen God use my life and I've seen basically, you know it says, without faith it's impossible, Please, God. I know that you were going to talk about. You know the prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much. I've experienced that in my own life. So I will refuse to be a coward when it comes to the kingdom, because I am courageous, because God has been my king, my savior in my life and I am a redeemed story.
Speaker 2:Dude, you know what I love watching you two being a pastor, watching you two being a pastor. You can see stuff in other people when you sit down and talk to them, precisely because you've been there. It's like poor people are better at noticing poor people.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, because they see the tells. Rich people don't necessarily notice that. They're all kind of the same. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Poor people notice and I would say hurt people or wounded people. Maybe better to say this way scarred people notice, wounded people.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Right Because they've seen like, oh, I see what's going on here, I noticed that, and so you'll sit down, bro, you'll be counseling, you'll be talking to somebody, you'll be praying for somebody, and you'll look at them and be like did this happen in your life? You know what I mean. And you'll just watch their face break open with tears because you just started some work in their heart that nobody else has been able to speak to. Oh yeah, and they've been carrying a weight that no one else could see.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you better believe, at that moment I'm pulling on the threads. At that point now I'm speaking nothing but truth, because the Word of God is meant to be edified, to be lifted up. There's life and death and the power of the tongue Well, yes and amen, especially when you're speaking the power of the Holy Scriptures that's sufficient to salvation and redemption in their life. And at that point I'm pouring into them what the Word of God has done in my own life. So I know the Scripture.
Speaker 3:My kids laughed at me the other day. They were like, daddy, you know so much Scripture. I was like, yeah, I know where I suck at, because I renew my mind so I could tell you exactly where I suck. So all the scriptures are a quote. I'm like, yep, it's because I stunk at that. But when God's used that in my own life, you better believe I'm pouring out the eternal fountain upon that person and I'm calling them at that moment to the moment of life, and I know it's the Lord working like literary resurrection from dead to life, just in the, in those situations it's so fantastic.
Speaker 1:You know I mean, I don't know you that well, nick but I never would have guessed any of that about you. You do fill a room pretty well. You're hilarious too, but yeah, thanks. Do you ever, was there ever a time Like I feel like this is what people do is they look back at those moments that you just kind of mentioned in some way and be like this was God's fault, why would I follow him?
Speaker 3:You know, I actually used to um. One of the stories when I was growing up is um, when I was in the Marine Corps. I just joined the Marine Corps and, uh, we're over cursing and I was an alpha male. I really was Um. I wanted to go harder, I wanted to go longer, I'm going to get a faster.
Speaker 3:I used to get beat up because if there's a dude taller and he curses out, I'm going to go fight him first. I get beat up. Don't get me wrong. I've learned at that moment never fight a dude that fights like an Irish guy with his hands backwards. You don't do that. I learned my lesson. But I wanted to be the biggest, baddest and best, if you could say that. And I remember a lady came up to us and she started quoting John 3, 16, and I finished it for her and I was like, yeah, I know the story. Get the F out of my face If God would have taken me. Now, mind you, I grew up as a Baptist. I grew up, I said the prayer, I got baptized. I said that, I said everything, but there was no redemption in my life until 2007. So, yeah, I knew scripture and I did not. I ain't gonna say I hated God but I did not seek him. But I can tell you right now I was not saved. Does that answer your question?
Speaker 1:Yeah, in a way.
Speaker 3:I mean, I didn't hate God for it. Because I believed in God, I rejected God. So when the Bible says then Romans 1, that they knew God but they never decided to give him glory or acknowledge him as God, I could tell you for a fact that was my life. I knew there is a God. I knew his name was Jesus Christ, but I did not want anything to do with him. In fact, I rebelled against him because I was rebelling against the very one that loved me that was allowing this to happen in order to bring a better story through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What would you say to somebody then who was like it's hard for me to follow God all the way because of my past, because of what has happened?
Speaker 3:I would say at that point you're trying to be the God of your life and I was like you can get healing. He has come to forgive you, he's came to die on the cross, he's come to reconcile you and he's the very person that could bring you purpose and value and hope in that situation, if you allow him to. But you refuse to allow him to and you're mad at him for rejecting, for what you think is rejecting you, but in fact you're rejecting the very one who came to save you, the very one who wants to use you. It's a pride thing, because what you want to do is essentially justify yourself as a victim. God has done this to me when in reality he's sovereign. He allows it to happen because he sees the beginning from the end. Right, Right.
Speaker 2:And I think at that point you're agreeing with Satan that death wins yeah 100% Right.
Speaker 2:I mean because at that point that person is saying, no, I do believe that this is all I am, I do believe this is all I'll ever be, and as long as I believe that lie, there is no hope in any of my stories. I'm only going to see death and we've talked about this a little bit before, tim but people living in light of the next funeral, they can't even celebrate amazing moments in their life because they've so deeply bought the lie that their story is a story of death, not of life, that you reinterpret the whole world in that way. This is why we talk about earlier I was bringing up liberation, theology and victimization and BLM and some of these different things is because so many people who are part of a death cult and by death cult I mean man they celebrate death of the very things that God has given us in life, and we've talked about transgenderism, how it's a type of suicide you know what I mean of your God-given identity and abortion and some of these different things that it's this constant celebration of death instead of life throughout history. So what happens is you have people go back through history and every story that we know that's true from history they have to reinterpret in light of a bad thing that happens instead of the good thing that happened. So obviously, the whole 1619 you know project and the idea that actually america was actually founded on slavery and that's what it is, and it's not founded on independence from this or that. This is when they became who they were.
Speaker 2:What did you just do? You went back, you looked the story and then you amplified the earlier part and then deny the later part having any significance, and a lot of people do that with the Bible. Jesus was a good teacher. He said some good things. Do I believe in the resurrection? No, the thing that actually gives it power and validity and hope and the opportunity for life, no, no, no. I want the teachings but I don't want the life. Why? Because I'm actually in love with the idea of death and I become somebody who goes back into every story. And I will tell you this, tim people are great and I mean amazing strategists at finding death and the downside in every situation. It's really hard to find somebody who doesn't think that way. People are fantastic at it. Give me any good situation, I'll help you see the bad.
Speaker 2:That's how some people live, that's how some people walk and that's how some people, and oftentimes those people end up going to learn how to become some kind of certified counselor because they can't solve their own story, but they'll try to help other people. Be okay with the problem. Yeah, like, like, here's okay. Tim, this, this, this bugs the crap out of me. I see it all the time. Um, this meme or picture, whatever comes up, uh, of this part on the office. Did you ever watch this show? Oh, yeah, I'm sure you did.
Speaker 1:Did you ever watch the office?
Speaker 2:Nick, there's a part on the show where one of the guys takes an intern out to go do his first sale.
Speaker 2:And it goes horribly, yeah, it goes very bad. And he looks at him and says not everything has a lesson. Sometimes you just fail Right and a lot of people are like, wow, I find that super impactful, wow, that's really deep. I'm like that's really interesting that you're saying the lesson is that there was no lesson, which seems what you just taught people is sometimes it's just death and there's nothing to learn from that or no way to grow past that, and you should just accept that it's death. And I'm like actually the gospel kind of pushes in the face of that and says no, that's not actually how we think, that's not actually the case, and what that is is part of a worldview that says I will look for the death instead of life. And looking for the life is something that you shouldn't do and in fact, that's going to exhaust you, that's going to make you tired. How about just stop at the death of Christ and not move on?
Speaker 3:to the resurrection and you're training yourself for it too. I think about in the Marine Corps when we're doing drill instructors. You're naturally doing inspections on people. So when you're inspections, you start from the top, you go all the way down to the bottom. You naturally start training for your eyes, for the normal things that you know you're going to catch, because that's just training your eye. The same is true.
Speaker 3:I always say that what goes on in the spiritual is absolutely, or physical is absolutely true. In the spiritual, same thing is true. You have to train yourself to look for good. You have to teach yourself and you have to ask God to give you eyes to see. So I was a narcissist. I would always look for negative things, but I've had to train myself.
Speaker 3:So I actually am a very big encourager, which God's one of the areas. God redeemed me because I will only choose to try to see the good in people. I'm not going to allow your past to define you. Even if you're defeated, don't allow your defeats to define you. We serve a king that's risen from the dead. When scripture says, how not with God if he gave you his own son, how not with him? Give you everything you ask? Well, yes and amen, Either God cannot die, he cannot change and he cannot lie. So that's either a lie or it's truth. Well, dadgummit, I'm going to take it at my word of God and I'm going to put it into practice and we're going to jump, and we're going to go kick Satan in the teeth and we're going to enjoy it, because that's the God we serve.
Speaker 1:I will say it is just personal speaking man is. It's exhausting to try to find the good all the time and depending on circumstance, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Think about it this way, though, Tim is it exhausting to be depressed?
Speaker 1:Not when you're used to it. Right, that's exactly what I wanted to get at.
Speaker 2:I don't think it has to do so much with the exhausting to find the good. I think it's exhausting to start swimming instead of drowning. Yeah, it's like working out. Yeah, it's a good word, right, like it's easier to let the air in your lungs grow stale under the waves and let it slowly grow darker and you do nothing. But the thing is that is dying, right, and you're not dead yet, but you're acting as though you are, and I think some people would rather pretend to be dead now. Yeah, and in a sense it's easier, but I would say in another sense, no, it's transitioning. Easier is actually living. Easier is breathing. Easier on your whole body, easier on everyone else around you, easier on every part of you, except for the part of you that has become so polluted by darkness that it wants to take everything else with it yeah, and I would even say um, if I could be so bold as um.
Speaker 3:Like, uh, when you see people fighting, like that's signs of life. Like I think about my little kid, my fifth child. Um, he's uh, 11 months. So watching him trying to crawl, he eats it it. He crawls a little bit, then he eats it. Now he's trying to stand and he's eating it, but eventually he's standing. Now he's trying to walk, pushing stuff. It's true, in the spiritual, you have to train your spiritual muscles. If you're not training your spiritual muscles, you're going to be spiritually apathetic. So are you going to fight for life? Because I think if we don't fight for life, then I think we're spitting in the very face of life itself. Because Christ says I've come to give you life and give it abundantly. If I'm not trying and seeking him to live through me, if I'm not a spiritual catalyst, then what am I doing? Why am I here?
Speaker 2:Christ comes to give us life, and I believe that we're all supposed to be conduits of that. The it's the mentality that you've talked about. You said your, your, uh, your slogan for a long time was carpe diem.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Seize the day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, um, along these lines, tim, what takes you to that darkness where you start to feed on death instead of life? By the way, this is always a point where I like to pause when I'm watching Harry Potter with my kids and talk about what the name Death Eater is so appropriate, because they literally feed on it. That's what they do, and some people are like that. And what do they do? They suck the life out of people. Those people exist. They don't dress like that, although in the early 2000s they did Spiritual leeches. Right, they are.
Speaker 2:But Viktor Frankl said this men settle for pleasure when they don't have purpose. And I think about this all the time, because a big part of my calling in my life is to help people discover and find their purpose, so that they'd stop settling for pleasure. But I think pleasure takes you to this place where, like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this, and then what ends up happening is you realize that, oh, I'm not, this isn't actual life, this is a type of death. And then you start to reinterpret everything is death instead of life, not because the purpose and the life isn't there, but because that's not what you were shooting for. You were actually shooting for pleasure. And what pleasure actually, without purpose, is death. Real pleasure is only found in purpose, and that means actually swimming above the waterline, right? And so I just think, when we talk about this idea of people living in this kind of state or looking for these kinds of things, it's what you have.
Speaker 2:Tim is several generations now of people who no longer have purpose, so their purpose has become finding personal satisfaction and being, let's call it a death eater, somebody who is just looking to crucify the next Jesus, someone who's looking to kill the next thing, someone who's looking to find the wrong that was done in every situation and has become part of a system that sole desire is to destroy things that eventually be destroyed itself. And that's what the Bible says. Evil actually destroys the wicked. It kills itself eventually, and it's sad to see that.
Speaker 2:But suicide numbers or people that are deleting themselves, or whatever you want to say, is going up all the time. Anger is going up all the time, never more clearly seen than in our political climate. The time Anger is going up all the time, never more clearly seen than in our political climate. Seize the day actually takes you to darkness really fast if there's not a purpose behind it that's actually guiding you to life. And that's why I always tell people Tim, we were talking earlier, like okay, so how do you train yourself to see that Reading the Bible makes you do?
Speaker 1:that.
Speaker 2:Reading the Bible makes you, and it's it. It's almost frustrating for some people at first because they're like this is like a 1960s or seventies cowboy movie. You know what I mean? I was like why is it always a happy ending? I'm sick of that. You know what I mean? Um, but the reality is it's telling us the true story again and again and again that even in the darkest moments and the weirdest and it's gritty and there's a lot of awful things all of it ends with Christ reigns over all and every ounce of it belongs to him and that he is redeeming all things to himself.
Speaker 2:And if you're constantly reading the Bible and you don't see that grand story in every little story and every little story in that grand story, you'll live different. You know what I mean. You won't see it and you'll live in light of the next death and the next funeral. But if you're somebody who sees the resurrection and understands the pattern that God tends to use and how he crafts things and orchestrates them, then you start to change your mind in every scenario and you start to view things differently and you see them in light of the cross and the tomb and not just the cross. Yeah, Interesting.
Speaker 1:I like what you said, nick, about having to fight for life. Yeah, interesting. I like what you said, nick, about having to fight for life. Yeah, I don't think that's a concept a lot of people take when they become Christian.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because you just said it. You're like God Christ comes to bring gives a lot of things to us and we think that comes easy. Yeah, or that should come naturally, or that should be instant in our lives. Yeah, not so much. We have to something we have to fight for every day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, that's what Satan's whole purpose is is to come to still kill and destroy, and he's come to do the opposite of that. So we have a real enemy. Um, and I think it's it's cute to have it on a coffee mug. You know, you don't fight against flesh and blood, but the powers and principalities. Um, he's a real freaking enemy. If he's a real freaking enemy, then I better have a real freaking faith that's going to transform my life, which is my life.
Speaker 3:Verse James 2.18. Show me your faith by what you say. I'm going to show you my faith by what I do. I can proclaim that I'm a Christian all day long, but if I'm not out living it, how real is my faith? Like, how much do I really believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Because I tell you right now one of the pet peeves that I have when it comes to when we go out to do Planned Parenthood we are out there and these people hate us so much but they believe in what they believe so vehemently that they're less than 1% of the population and they've radically changed culture. They have more of a faith than we do and we serve a living God.
Speaker 3:I'll be danged if that's going to happen on my watch. I'm not going to allow someone who believes in death, someone who hates God, have more of a realistic faith that causes them to move and stand up than a God that raised from the dead. I will not have it. So, yeah, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to live my life according to what God says, because I believe he's alive. He even says he goes. I'm not the God of the dead. He even says he goes. I'm not the God of the dead, I'm the God of the living. Well, we better live, then, because he comes to give us that life, and I really, just like Justin was saying seize the day used to be my thing.
Speaker 1:I'm going to get a tattoo one day, His sister-in-law right.
Speaker 3:She took care of me and what I've realized is God doesn't take from your story. I'll tell you about that one. But Carpe Diem was my thing. It was like seize the day. It was my body, my choice. I did whatever I will with it. And I'm not knocking people that are struggling because I could tell you about being on the other end of Planned Parenthood. I was a dude who bullied a girl into taking the morning after pill. I've been on that end so I know what it's like as a man to suffer through that. And still here we are, 30 years later. I still think about that. But seize the day, carpe diem, he doesn't take from that story. So what I was telling Pastor Justin is I've added to that because God revealed it to me probably about six months ago. We were chatting about it. It's like it's carpe diem ad gloriam day. So that's actually what's on my signature. It's seize the day for the glory of God. He does not take from your story, he adds to it. And he adds it for his glory, not for you.
Speaker 2:There's the refrain. It's not just the first verse, it's the second.
Speaker 2:As long as we can end the story the way that Christ ends the story, then I'm happy with that and that's why, even you going out and doing stuff at some of these clinics and things, our desire is for their story to not end in death, but for it to end in life instead. Yeah, it's life work. When other people are doing death works, we're going to do life works because that's what we are as Christians and that's what we're called to be as Christians is those who would bring life instead of death. Yeah, and man, we're up to our necks in a culture that, like I said, man is walking in the opposite direction. And I think to your point more than ever now. I love what you said, pastor Nick. You said, gosh, we serve a real freaking enemy, so you better have a real freaking faith.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's such a good reminder. Come on man, let's go.
Speaker 2:It's going to be my diva. It pumps me up.
Speaker 1:There's been this thought swirling around and you guys kind of touched it a little bit, but it's the idea of self-help as a maybe I wouldn't even say seasoned Christian but, somebody who's been a Christian a while, right. I mean, look the self-help idea, and for me this is just personal. Now I had a great relationship and then it kind of fumbled, and then it went down, went up, and now it's just kind of uneven, right, but the idea of self-help for me has been turned into.
Speaker 1:I'm relying on what I did 10 years ago as a way of self-helping myself to get back right with God, right. What is something that people can do? If the maybe they don't relate to this man, I'm just crazy. But to continue to seize that day for the glory of God. How to continue to you know, step up towards God and the faith he has for you.
Speaker 3:Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is self-help. I'm not knocking that stuff, but I think about you. Know it starts with the first word, self, and about you. We cannot bring ourselves healing. We cannot bring ourselves healing, we cannot bring ourselves life. We find it in true life, which is Jesus Christ. So when Pastor Justin says that the Bible is it, the Bible is where I go, Like it is the word of God, it is life. So not just reading it, but actually applying it to my life. Because the more I've tested God and I mean that lovingly but the more when God says test me, I'm like, okay, let's try it the more I've learned to test him when it comes to faith, the greater my faith has become. I don't have a great faith because I'm a great person. I have great faith because I serve a great God. So when God tells me to do something, either it goes back to those three things for me Either you're a liar or you're a lunatic like CS.
Speaker 2:Lewis says or you truly are.
Speaker 3:Lord. Jesus cannot die, he cannot change and he cannot lie.
Speaker 2:I take God at his word Let me jump in here just briefly, tim, here's what I would say To people who feel like they're doing all the things that they're supposed to be doing and they're not seeing results. Oftentimes, the results that you're looking for are different than the ones that people are actually saying you're going to receive. That's good. So, like if my goal is, I just want to feel better about this in this particular situation, I just want my life to go better. How come I'm not making X amount of dollars? How come I'm not able to do this thing or that thing? How come I haven't landed this job?
Speaker 2:I'm reading the Bible, dude. You're totally missing it. Yeah, you're going to get more miserable because you're trying to use Christian currency to buy the devil's outcome. That's it. Like that's not it for your life and God probably is doing stuff in your life during that season and you're pissed off about it because it's not what you wanted. So, like, if you go in using the Bible as a self-help tool, you're going to be really irritated because you're going to find yourself stopped from being the center of the story every single time you try to apply those principles. So some people are like yeah, I've tried that, I've done that, and what they mean is I gave God an opportunity to give me what I wanted, and he didn't give me what I wanted. What else you got? And to me I want to tell that person hey, your moral compass is so screwed up. I'll be surprised if you make it back home today. You know what I mean, because what you just told me is up. I'll be surprised if you make it back home today.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like because what you just told me is hey, I read the Bible and I read myself into every part that is supposed to be about God yeah, and I read God into every part that's supposed to be about myself yeah, and I'm not actually looking for God. I'm looking for something to worship me yeah, Because I want it to give me what I want, instead of me doing what I'm supposed to do and God getting what he wants. And then I'm surprised that I'm still miserable, because I got a foot in the world and I got a foot in the church and it's just not working out for me and it's like, yeah, that's never going to work for you.
Speaker 3:It never is. Man. That's good. You want the benefits of God without the commitment to him? Yeah, that without the commitment to him, that's exactly it I think about Jesus feeding the 5,000.
Speaker 3:They're like you've come because of the bread. You're not going for Jesus, you're not going to be relational with him, you're going for the benefits. Eternal life is not a state, and what I mean by that is not a place. When the Bible says you may know eternal life, is this that you know God and Jesus Christ, whom you've sent. Eternal life is this that you know God and Jesus Christ, whom you've sent. Eternal life is experiencing Jesus Christ. It is a present possession that we have right now because we have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:Bro, but that's it. Like, picture this, you got this crowd. That's like I want the bread, feed me the bread. And he's like listen, I'm literally going to have my body shredded and torn apart for you later. I want to give you that. And they're like I don't really want that, right, like, but that's it. Then it's rejecting like actual, the actual substance and the good thing, because you're just not really into that and you just want what you want, which which just, I guess, at the end of the day, just reminds you, with people like that, if you do, if you start with a self-help approach to things, that this will help me achieve the things that I want, which makes me want to do a hit job right now on seeker-friendly churches, and I just I'll try to avoid that. But I would ask you the question this is I'm going to teach on this tonight.
Speaker 2:Actually, ask yourself the question what am I delighting in? That's good, what am I delighting in? What are the things that I'm actually saying? What am I delighting? What are the things that I'm actually saying, man, I love this and I want this and I'm hoping for this and I'm fighting for this. And if none of those things are things that actually have to do with the Christian life, or like actually falling in love with Jesus and being the person that God has called you to be and laying your life down so that he can raise you up, and all this stuff. But it looks more like the American dream, or you being the hero of a cowboy story. You know what I mean. Although cowboy stories sometimes are wholesome, you may be actually fighting for a whole different kind of story and you're pursuing pleasure, not purpose. That's it man.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think about what is it? He who is forgiven much loves much. Man, do we really realize how much we're forgiving? Yeah, you're right. When you see the cross and some people think the cross is right there, you know, you're just a little bit there's a chasm. Like I don't think we realize how much the cross covers in our own life and how much of a bridge it is between us and God himself. The Holy Spirit dwells within us, man. I pray that my love for God is evidence in how well I love others, because he says that you cannot love me who you can't see if you don't love those that you can see. And I think that's a good word, man, is it ain't about us? Like, is it really about him or is it about us?
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. That's time, guys. We're a little bit over Right on.
Speaker 2:Nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We had old Nick on, we had to give it a go.
Speaker 1:Loved it. Thanks for joining us, Nick. That was awesome. My pleasure, guys. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:I'm going to end this one because it's been a little bit. I just want to pray for anybody listening today. So, father, god, we pray for anybody that feels like they're stuck and is not able to transform the way that you've called us to and are actively doing in our life. Lord, that you would just bless them with your presence and your power, protect them from the evil one. Lord, I pray that in a world that is full of death, works that we would be people who would bring light and life and hope. God, so I pray that you would reveal hope to people, strength to people, and allow us to walk in anointing and the calling that you've called us to, and may we be people that bring life into every scenario. Lord, we love you and we thank you in Jesus name, amen.
Speaker 2:Catch you all next time. Have a great week guys.
