Navigate Podcast
Welcome to Navigate, we are two long term friends doing life and ministry together. I got tired of the same ole answers when I started looking for help when it came to my walk with God. So together we go deeper than most would on topics that most people have heard or were taught but never fully understood. It is our way of simplifying concepts that we may have over complicated throughout our lives. Bringing theology and life experience into each episode. It is our hope and desire to help Navigate your Christian walk with you
Navigate Podcast
Confronting Idolatry: Commandments Pt 2
tjbhpodcast@gmail.com
Venturing further, we reflect on the human pursuit of fulfillment through idols, echoing biblical references to Sheol and Abaddon. Whether it's material possessions or relationships, the search for satisfaction often leads us away from God. By exploring the generational consequences of idolatry, including addiction and abusive behavior, we underscore that only God can truly fulfill our deepest needs. Through stories from the Bible and cultural references, we challenge the allure of forbidden treasures and encourage a confrontation with our own idolatrous tendencies, urging a prioritization of spiritual fidelity.
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate. I'm with Justin Hart, justin, the man, justin.
Speaker 2:Dude, we never are going to get the intro right.
Speaker 1:I don't think so. Not with you here. I feel like when you're not here, I feel like I do a great job.
Speaker 2:I nail it at night by myself, all the time when I'm just practicing.
Speaker 1:But you're never not here. So I'm here now, you not here. I'm here now. You never know, I'm here. I'm here for you, tim. All right, round two, round two, going through the Ten Commandments.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So the second one during my little research that I do. One of them was graven images and idols.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Is that the same thing?
Speaker 2:It kind of spells it out in a long way. So Exodus 20, it says this. It says I am a jealous God visiting the iniquities of the fathers on the children and on the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love me and keep my commandments. So it's definitely a qualified statement where he's not just saying don't worship these things, but then he gives you some hints about what they are and what the repercussions of what those things are on your family, which are huge, I mean. So this is a big commandment with a lot going on with it. Yeah, yeah. So some people are like graven images. Yeah, same thing, it's just engraved stuff.
Speaker 1:I always thought, like graven images, like can't have pictures of Jesus in your house, can't have a crucifix.
Speaker 2:That's a great question. A lot of people think so, like the big problem with the chosen that a lot of people have is the Grave. Is it breaking the second commandment by creating an image that people are going to picture when they pray? You know what I mean. That's like oh, is this? Are we allowed to pray and use this as a prompt? Are we not allowed to pray and use this as a prompt?
Speaker 2:I mean, we could really go down to the wormhole Like this this is where you get into difficulty with um, like praying to saints, am I, am I using this person to pray for me? You get into this, especially with iconography and, uh, the Orthodox church, which is a big deal right now, Like the largest growing church in the world, is the orthodox church, yeah, and everybody's going back to it because it has this wonderful iconography and deep liturgy and all this stuff.
Speaker 2:The problem iconography like uh, iconography is basically the created images or icons that are to assist in in worship oh, okay so if I have, like a, a picture of jesus carved on a cross, or if I have a statue of Christ with, or a statue of Mary or one of the saints or things like that, the Catholic Church is very into this as well. Yeah, so this is a big question, like when are you creating an image that is helping you worship, or when are you creating a mediator by which you are trying to worship through? And it gets complicated quick, man, like there's some. It's unfortunate, but I do think it's important.
Speaker 2:So when we jump in and we think about idols and the second commandment, really what we're asking, the question is, or the statement that's being made is don't have anything you are using to try to worship me that is not me. Don't use anything as a God, a false God, something for a religious experience. Don't let anything basically become a mediator for you in Jesus other than Jesus, but more so than that, don't let anything be Jesus to you that isn't Jesus. So it's both things. Really, if you wanted to think about it this way, you could say something along the lines of the first commandment is I'm trying to think of the best way to communicate this. I guess the first commandment forbids worshiping a false God. You should only worship God. I guess the first commandment forbids, you know, worshiping a false God, you should only worship God. And then the second commandment is really forbidding worshiping the true God in a false manner.
Speaker 2:It might be a good way to state it In a false manner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, like, if I'm worshiping and people are created to worship, which is why I'm saying this it might sound confusing to you if I say, oh, worshiping the false god in a false manner. Well, it's like. Well, doesn't that sound like the third commandment? Sure, we'll get into some of that stuff later and how that functionally plays out, but what I would say is you can have an idol, either by having a god that is not the true god, that you have placed in the place of god and now are praising it and worshiping it in that sense, or you can create a false mediator to God that is not God, because there's actually only one mediator between God and man the man, jesus Christ, as 1 Timothy 2 tells us.
Speaker 1:When you're talking about people who pray to the saints like false mediators there. Right, yeah, exactly, On behalf, right.
Speaker 2:Exactly so the difficulty then becomes is someone a mediator for you, which is a problem? And then, if you get into the Catholic Church, you get things like what's called dulya, hyperdulia and latria. Latria is the worship that is given to God alone. Only that worship can go to him. Worship can go to him. But hyperdulia is like well, it's a type of reverence that we have, veneration that we have for something which functionally looks exactly the same from the outside. But they feel better about it if I give one a name and the other not, even though I'm kind of doing the same thing. So it becomes sticky. So, to bring it back, sorry, I'm like wow, we got into the weeds really fast there You've honestly triggered something, so yeah, Okay, well, we got into the weeds really fast there.
Speaker 2:You've honestly triggered something. So, yeah, okay, well, we can go there. I'm happy to do that, happy to jump in and have that conversation, but a lot of people are worshiping false gods or, let's say, idols, and I want to get into what that is because I think that's important.
Speaker 2:And then the second thing is what are false ways to worship God by way of idolatry? That are also problems, and I think we there's a lot of conversation about this through church history Like RC Sproul, who I dearly love. I love RC Sproul but he has no problem with paintings of Jesus. He has no problems with paintings of the Lord and that evoking in us a sense of oh, it's a storytelling. He's not praying to the picture, but he would say that's totally fine. Some people throughout church history would say you should never even attempt to paint Jesus, lest you create an image that is not actually the real thing, that then people come to venerate and use for prayer in a mediatorial sense, which is not actually the right mediator.
Speaker 1:There's that famous painting of Jesus from that girl who claims to have gone to heaven.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, I can't remember the name of her and she writes, she paints like Buddhist stuff and all kinds, like she totally went off the rails.
Speaker 1:I don't know much about it, I just like a little documentary about it.
Speaker 2:But you know, I see that image everywhere. Yeah, a lot of people see that and they are like in the catacombs of Jesus. You know what I mean. So, like in my head, I'm like I don't think there's a problem with trying to tell a story or depict Christ. So I actually don't have a problem with the chosen. I don't think they're breaking the second commandment personally by giving a poetic rendition with the understanding that no, this is not actually Jesus and you should not pray to this person's face when you're praying. He's trying to display what Christ did in an artistic rendering. The problem is that there is a line there, because there's been so many times throughout history where people will take an image and now the image becomes sacred. The big joke about this is like um, who's the guy? Tim, who plays?
Speaker 1:uh, obi-wan I was just thinking that story, yeah, it's the same thing, yeah exactly so it's like you know, somebody had a statue of that guy it was a picture of obi-wan kenobi yeah, and they thought it was jesus right and they're like oh well, I pray to that right.
Speaker 2:So they're using an icon to pray to, with the assumption that it's endowed with some, let's say, specific mediatorial value. And I would say no that is not the case.
Speaker 1:I would agree with you there. But aren't there some of these things there to help you kind of get your heart positioned for worship better?
Speaker 2:So here's, another difficult thing, man, we got into the weeds quick here.
Speaker 1:I'm really into this stuff. It helps me, so let's go there.
Speaker 2:So this is difficult. When somebody says something like a worship pastor says I'm here to usher you into the presence of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What they just said is I'm now your mediator and really your worship isn't going to be the same unless I'm here. No, incorrect, not good, although people can worship and, let's say, the manifest presence of God could fall in a really cool way. I'm like amen, but it wasn't because that dude with tight pants was singing a song.
Speaker 1:I agree, and now, he did that for me, but doesn't the music get you there?
Speaker 2:I would say, to the degree that something helps you focus on the real thing, it's good to the degree that it doesn't, it's a problem and a lot of people have a hard time distinguishing.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, so, um, like old Anglican churches I love this used to put the choir in the back and you would sing forward like pews facing forward, and they would have like stained glass which had different pictures of different scenes from the Bible and things and the goal was not to focus on the people but focus on who God was and the stories. The problem is there. Even there, you're looking at the glass or you're focusing on the glass thing and you're trying to pray through that somehow or sing through it. What's the line there? How's that happening?
Speaker 2:Some people JI Packer, his book Knowing God he writes a lot about this. He's a big thing. Like you, should not have a depiction of Jesus on a shirt. You shouldn't have a depiction of Jesus on the cross. Display the cross but don't put Jesus on there, because it's breaking the second commandment. I think he's on to something in that we're making things trivial when we put Jesus on a shirt or put a guitar in his hands of some depiction of Christ that actually downplays the significance of who he is or what he did.
Speaker 1:I don't see a problem with the crucifix stuff, though.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what the cross is for Well, we'll get into taking the name of God in vain, which is where I'll really go down that wormhole, and we'll talk more about how to empty the name of God of its significance or empty God of you know. In some sense, we would empty the God, a God of the value or weight of what his name and who he is should represent. I don't want to get there yet. We'll get there a little bit later. Remember, these first four commandments are all about God, right, and the next six are all about us and how we act in light of those things. So, loving God, loving others right, and how we do that. Well, but in this particular area we're talking about okay, how then am I supposed to worship God? That's the picture, and the reality is we are made to worship you are made by God uniquely to give praise and worship to the one who created you in his own image.
Speaker 2:Worship pours out of men, regardless of what they actually functionally believe. Atheist praise Atheist worship. Agnostics praise Agnostics worship. People are hardwired to worship. In fact, I saw a statistic that it was. Theynostics praise. Agnostics worship. People are hardwired to worship. In fact, I saw a statistic that it was. They did some study, but it was basically like men are hardwired to believe in things greater than themselves and praise regardless of what they believe. It's like they're almost wired to believe in God, whether they want to or not. So think about our culture today, tim. Like what are things that people functionally worship now? And by this what I mean is whatever is driving your decisions that isn't from God, like that's an idol. Whatever is driving your decisions that isn't something that God has said should drive your decisions is functionally an idol. So like, if you are, is this like just sin or yeah Well, it's a type of sin, right?
Speaker 2:And I would say, of all the commandments, this is the most difficult hands down, because everything at some level, kind of I guess you could say, becomes an idol. Like, let me read this to you. This is Colossians 3, verse 5. All right, you ready for this?
Speaker 1:Let me pull this, colossians 3?.
Speaker 2:Yeah, colossians 3, verse 5. All right, you ready for this? Let me pull this, colossians 3. Yeah, colossians 3, verse 5 says put to death, therefore, what is earthly in you. Okay, that's important, right, sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil, desire and covetousness. And then it says this, which is idolatry. So I would like to say, hey, idolatry is just making a graven image and worshiping that. What Paul does in Colossians is take it out of the realm of things and actually make them, um, let's say, patterns or heart conditions for what you're actually trying to run after. Okay, so here's the like. Here's the question, tim why did people worship idols?
Speaker 1:To get an answer for something. Get stuff, yeah.
Speaker 2:Get stuff.
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 2:I do this, so this gives me what I want. I'll burn incense for the rain God so that he gives me rain, right, I will give crops to this particular thing so my wife will have a baby. I'll give money to this particular thing so that these people don't invade. I'll sacrifice my child so that I have a future. Okay, I want to like bring this back to our culture right now. We can get there. Do you see what I'm saying? So, really, what it's saying is, hey, the condition of the heart is to go to things that are not God to give, what only God is supposed to give you. And so how this plays out in all kinds of circumstances is when you want something and you're willing to sin or go out of your way, go to a different place or do something that God hasn't ordained to get it, that is an idol in your life. That's what it is.
Speaker 2:Proverbs 27, 20 is one of my favorite verses on this. He says Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied. Nor are the eyes of a man ever satisfied Like, literally, sheol and Abaddon. The chasm which every dark thing is cast into it is a bottomless void. He's like. You know what's like that? Men's eyes Just staring into, staring at, desiring, wanting whatever. And obviously man here is, you know, mankind. But our tendency is to try to get from things that we weren't meant to get what only God is supposed to give us, and we'll look for mediators to give us those things. So when he's saying, hey, don't carve for yourself graven images, don't make for yourself an idol of the likeness what is in heaven above, or on earth below or whatever, why? Because he's saying, those things you're trying to go to to get what you're only supposed to get from me, you come to me, not to something else. Quit making false gods. We brought up the ox or the calf in Exodus right?
Speaker 2:Well, we'll just say this is the God that got us out there, and we'll worship and give veneration to this. What are they saying? We'll replace God. This is a good second, and it'll give us what we need right now, so I'll settle for this.
Speaker 1:That whole thing to me is still weird. Why would you build something like that and expect power to come from it?
Speaker 2:I think, because we're made to worship, our tendency is to create things, see wonder and beauty in them. Imagine this, tim you look at a giant gold statue. It's beautifully, artistically done. It has jewels and ornaments built into it. It's gorgeous. Okay, something in you is like, wow, that's beautiful, right. And then your tendency is to take it a step further and say man, I wonder if it has some kind of magical powers. I wonder if it has the ability to do something for me.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I never see it that way, but yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, so like.
Speaker 1:Me personally, not just in general, just me. I just don't know how people can get there.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. I'm surprised to think that I think actually most people think that things will accomplish things for them all the time, that they don't. Most people think, well, if I just got a girl, that would be this for me, then she would fulfill the things that I want, even though everything in their head knows she can't provide for me what my heart actually needs. But I firmly believe deep down, if I just worship that it will give me what I want. It's the same thing. People do this with money.
Speaker 2:If I just had this, then this would provide for me what I think I need on the inside, even though, if we're being honest, it does not. Statistically it does not. The wealthiest people that we know are also the most depressed people that we know, and bankrupt people that we know are also the most depressed people that we know and bankrupt people that we know. If I just had this house, if my kid just was a little bit different in this area, if I just had this, if I just had that, and then we will pay time, talent, treasure, whatever to those things to get them to provide for us what we want when we should be relying on ultimately.
Speaker 2:God, god for those things, okay, so why do we have so many statues and different things in the Catholic church? Why do we have so many icons and everything else? I'm having a hard time connecting with God. Yeah, I would really like if there was something else that would help me do a better job of connecting with God. Now, I've inserted something now that I need to help me worship, so that I can envision something else to help me get there. Okay, now I've created something that I'm not supposed to have, because I'm supposed to connect with God, not these things. And the problem is, tim, is this is it's pretty pervasive and it makes pretty clear in this whole bit here. Right, so you shouldn't make for yourself an idol in the likeness of anything that's heaven or on earth. I mean, you know, people have worshiped the stars for forever and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think what's going on with aliens in a lot of ways that, like the unhealthy fixations. Again, I'll say it again whatever is driving your decisions, that isn't God is an idol, okay. So if you're building your life around a particular thing, that is not something that God is calling you to do, or isn't something that you've been created to do by God. There's a problem there. And then he says this God is a jealous God, which means what I mean. He desires you and he's not okay with you and your girlfriend or whatever. He's not okay with you plus whatever it's him and you. He's like a good husband that is not going to allow his wife to have side guys. It's not going to work out.
Speaker 2:Visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and fourth generations, for those who hate me, but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love me and keep my commandments. So let me give you a very practical application for this Generational sin man. A father that's addicted to alcohol and loves alcohol is worshiping at the altar of alcohol, worshiping the idol of alcohol, because he's trying to get from alcohol what he's supposed to get from God. And now his children also struggle with alcoholism and now it runs in the family. Okay, parents who have crazy standards for their son in this area, or abusive parents have this going on. Well, it turns out that abused people tend to abuse other people.
Speaker 2:It goes down the line God will give you over to the idols that you want to serve. The problem is, when you serve those idols, you get the payment that those idols give you, which tends to be death because they can't actually give you life. Only Jesus can give you life. Death because they can't actually give you life. Only Jesus can give you life. One of my favorite stories in the Bible. That is maybe a weird one for some people to think about when I bring this up, but really is about Achan. Achan in Joshua chapter seven, I think seven or eight Might be a bit of both. I got to think about that Achan is actually. Let me just pick it up real quick.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to remember Aiken.
Speaker 2:Aiken is the guy who basically is told they get a mandate, hey, go into these places, wipe them out. I think it's AI that they're fighting against. Yeah, joshua, chapter seven. And they're told hey, don't take any of this stuff, don't bring it home, it all needs to go, it all needs burned, it all needs destroyed, Don't bring anything back. And Aiken is the guy that takes a bunch of stuff and he puts it in his tent, okay, and then they go out to war later and a ton of people die and then they're like cool, we're going to cast lots and find out what happened.
Speaker 2:Turns out this guy's got all this stuff in his tent, which I want to like get into that for a second, because it's not like their tents were miles apart. You know how many people had to know that he was hiding crap in his tent. You're telling me he brought, you know, gold and all kinds of stuff and he buries it in his tent and none of his neighbors thought anything was weird was going on. He was digging out dirt from the inside and hauling stuff in and putting it in, even if he did it in the middle of the night. There's no way his family didn't know and there's no way the people around him didn't know, which means that he was doing a bunch of crap and other people knew it, but it wasn't a big deal because it was in his own home, right, which is what we say about, like homosexuality and all kinds of stuff. Now, it's their own home, it's them, it's not going to affect me. Then everybody goes out to battle the next day and a bunch of people, freaking, die because God's not going to bless a nation or a people that are allowing things like that to happen without repercussions. There's going to be stuff that goes on. Anyways, they cast lots falls on his family and him and his family are burnt to death and then covered in stones as a monument to remind people. When you live your life that way, that's how you end. Now, remember, remember. And there's.
Speaker 2:The story is fascinating to me because man, god's been blessing them and doing all this stuff. They made it out of Egypt, they parted the sea, they got all these stories of everything that God did, fed them with manna in the wilderness. All these things they go in, they're wiping people out, kicking butt, earlier, you know, the whole Jordan parts in front of them and they, you know they walk through on dry land, like miracles have been happening. The angel of the Lord shows up. You got Jericho up to this point. God is real and he is doing stuff. And he's like, hey, don't touch that. And this guy's like you know what though? But then you think about it and there's a reality here, like okay, tim, you watch the Black Pearl.
Speaker 1:You know, pirates of the Caribbean, the Black Pearl, yeah.
Speaker 2:There's something about cursed treasure, isn't there? It's intriguing. You know what I mean. Or the Hobbit, or the Voyage of the Dawn Treader, or whatever story you want to paint, there's always some treasure that you're not supposed to touch. And there's a real oh.
Speaker 2:I taught this the other day with my kids because we were watching the new Aladdin Right and they go into this cave and the deal is you can get the genie's lamp, but don't touch any of this other stuff, because if you touch any of this other stuff you're going to die. And what happens? I get really infatuated by this treasure. I end up touching it, and the joke is that he ends up cheating death right in that story and gets out, and it works out for him. But there's something about cursed treasure that we gravitate towards, even when we know it won't have the outcome that we want. That's idolatry. That's what I'm getting at.
Speaker 2:Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied, nor the eyes of a man ever satisfied, and so we have this tendency in our guts to worship things that we should not, to venerate things that we should not, to put in positions of power things that we should not, purely because we're trying to get to God, but we're doing it in ways that he said not to get to me, in Things like sorcery. I'm trying to gain power from the other side, and so I'm doing these things and it's giving me something, but it's going to take me to death. This is the guts of idolatry. So if the Bible is true and there's one mediator between God and man and it is God himself, jesus, then nothing else is supposed to be a mediatorial thing for us to get what we want, because it's in him that we move and live and have our being, so we have to put to death these deeds that it's talking about in Colossians, chapter three our tendency to want desire and walk off for things that we want to be God for us because it's easier and we can check a box. But it's not the real thing. We're looking for a connection back to God and we're willing to settle for something other than Jesus. That's what idolatry is.
Speaker 2:Calvin said that the human heart is an idol-making factory. We're just constantly coming up with new things to put in front of Jesus and follow instead of Jesus. We're constantly looking for things to fill the void in our heart instead of Christ, because, if we're honest, we're not okay with just Jesus. We want something else. We want something palpable that we can follow. And Achan finds out the hard way that, even though he's serving God and running after God, he has an idolatrous heart, and that idolatrous heart leads him to taking stuff that is just stupid. Like you're out in the middle of the wilderness, how are you going to use, you know, a bunch of freaking gold and whatever else. Anyway, I need this though.
Speaker 1:Right, he was probably thinking of his family.
Speaker 2:I don't think he was Tim, you know, right before they were all burst into flames and died. I just think, when we think about idols and I just I'll try to make it practical for everybody idols, and I just I'll try to make it practical for everybody when you think about idols, the movie the Pirates of the Caribbean is actually kind of a good example, because when you touch the treasure, it doesn't just touch you, it tends to touch your whole family and everyone around you. And then you have all these kinds of weird things, you know, going on and you're wondering why am I experiencing this and how is this happening? And you think you know the answer is more treasure. You think the answer is that, well, if I just had this, I'd get away with it. Oh, I just had that, I'd get away. Like idols never land and stay in one place, they're like rot. They tend to touch everything else too, because once you have the money, then you got to have the girl.
Speaker 1:And once you have the girl, then you're going to have the job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it becomes an entire worldview of getting my gratification. My desire is what I want that I should be getting from God, from the wrong things. Here's the picture you have Solomon, who is the wisest and richest man to ever exist on the planet, thousands of concubines, hundreds of wives, thousands of concubines, hundreds of wives, palaces, money, buildings, gardens, everything Writing Ecclesiastes. It's all meaningless, it sucks. You just want to give the guy a hug afterwards because you're like buddy. What happened to you? Like what happened Paul, in prison in Philippi, probably walking around in excrement and urine, writing to people about joy and how we've been given everything. How is that possible? One knows the substance and where to get joy and life and how worship produces good things, real worship and one has been caught up in eyes that are going the wrong way all the time. Or his book, proverbs and Ecclesiastes folly, which is a false type of worship, what takes you to meaninglessness and a chasing after the wind. And we are stupid. We follow the wrong things all the time. This is everything that he writes about in Romans 1. Like another picture of this Tim. That just drives me absolutely insane. Okay, I'm just going to paint this picture for you.
Speaker 2:Adam and Eve in the garden. All right, yeah, so we think about this story. It's like there's a tree in the middle of the garden. Why did God put it in the middle of the garden? How come it's there? How come God couldn't just put it somewhere else? You know what I mean. It's super frustrating. And it's apparently full of a bunch of lush fruit and is gorgeous, and Satan's just there ready to. You know, pick you a fresh fruit off this tree and do one of those quick reels. You know where they take the knife and slice open the fruit. It's just the most beautiful thing you've ever seen Delicious.
Speaker 1:Delicious.
Speaker 2:Exactly, butterflies show up, I'm like this is what happened in the garden right here. It was one of these reels. Okay, what blows my mind is this what we tend to forget, because I think of our idolatrous hearts and our emphasis on the wrong things, is that God put them in a garden, which means that although this tree was there with fruit, they're in a garden in the presence of God, walking around with a bunch of beautiful, delicious, freaking fruit, right? So the first idol in the Bible that we really see is with Adam and Eve, and they started to believe that God was holding out on them. And when Eve saw that the fruit was beautiful and desirable for gaining knowledge, she took it and she eats it, right In the middle of a freaking garden with tons of fruit and perfection and literally walking with the presence of God. He was not robbing them, literally, he had given them everything. You can fill your stomach with all of this everything. How are you hungry for fruit in the middle of a garden that's full of fruit.
Speaker 2:You get what I'm saying. Like that's saying, hey, listen, there's one apple and it's rotten. Don't eat that, eat the rest of these apples. And we're like how dare you deny me the rotten apple? And we know this is the case, because that's what happens to us. We think God is holding out on us when we're literally walking with God. God has given us himself, and Eve fixated on the fruit long enough to turn her back on all of it, on the entire garden. They just couldn't get their hearts off of what they didn't have, even when it was the worst thing for them. It's one of the most short-sighted moves in all of human history, and Achan really is repeating the same thing. He walks into this place, he's been given a nation and blessing, and God's doing miracles, and they're going to the promised land, and he's like you know what, though? But that, that gold, I'm going to bury that in my tent. That's happening, and he kills everybody in that process. So I think it's worth talking about in this story.
Speaker 2:When you're thinking about an idolatrous heart, just think about yourself here for a second. An idolatrous heart tends to make light of God's commands, like if you are struggling with idolatry and you are, and I am too our tendency is to downplay or doubt God's good character with regard to his commands, which is why the Ten Commandments are so key. We talked about this last week. Right, god has given us fences so we don't get eaten by wolves. But if you doubt the fence, you doubt God's character, you doubt that love. Then you will start to make for yourself idols, and idols are, I wonder, what's on the other side of that fence. I bet it's better. I bet God's not actually trying to take care of me, and you start to walk that direction.
Speaker 2:So you know, you got to ask yourself the question are you making light of the commands that God has given you in your life? If you are, then you're already struggling with an idolatrous heart because you don't doubt the commands for their own sake. You doubt the commands for what you think is on the other side that will take better care of you than God. Like in this story, achan convinces himself somehow that it's not hurting anybody else. If I take this, it's not a big deal, and I think sin is always trying to get you settled for something silly when God is trying to offer you the promised land, but you're just not willing to trust him or wait, so we'll take something else instead.
Speaker 1:Well, Saul did the same thing I'm thinking of the story, you know, when he's supposed to kill all those Anakites, and he ended up taking the king, taking all the best things you know.
Speaker 2:Totally yeah, yeah, and he's like well we'll keep the sheep.
Speaker 1:Here's a, I guess, bring up to the idol thing, man. If I, if my family, needs more income or something, I didn't get a second job, am I making that an idol now? Cause I'm not relying on God to provide anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. If it's, um, I think if it's, if it's making decisions for you instead of God, yes, so think about it this way Am I willing to sin to get what God has already told me I could have? And if you are willing to sin to get the good thing that God is saying I'll already give you in my good timing and whether you want to do it, then, yeah, you have an idol, because what you're saying is I'm willing to eat the fruit so that I can have the fruit faster instead of walking across the street and getting the fruit there. Now, obviously, that's a simple explanation. But if you actually trust God and he's saying I'm a jealous God, I'm not giving you to anybody else. You've got to trust me.
Speaker 2:It'd be like a kid going to their friend's parent's house so that he can have beer, instead of saying, hey, if you wait a little bit, I'll give you the beer, but you need to be old enough to actually drink. You know what I mean. It's that it's settling for something that's not better and is going to take you somewhere you don't want to go, which kind of leads into the second thing An idolatrous heart tends to lie to you about God's goodness. I don't think he's good. He's holding out on me, he's. He's. He's not giving me the, the, the things that I want in my life and man, have you ever been just bombarded with lies?
Speaker 2:You know, like what does that look like for you? Oh yeah, Daydream.
Speaker 1:Okay, daydreaming yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Adam and Eve turned their back on an entire garden because they start staring at the thing that they think that they want and I just you can imagine. It kind of gives you an idea of what the lies were that they were believing. But I think the same thing about Aiken. What was he believing when he saw that treasure? He's going to help my family. We're the poor family on the block. I'm just trying to get a little bit ahead.
Speaker 1:I've worked so hard, I deserve this yeah.
Speaker 2:I did more than everybody else, even though that's really not the case. Right, I want to give. I want to give some clarity here. I want to give you some quick tools with this, because I do think it's important. When you're dealing with an idol in your own life, one of the best things that you can do is actually confront it out loud. Okay, so if you are struggling with money, you're struggling with you know, whatever the idol is, that you're like man. I am flirting with, doing something that I shouldn't. I'm spending way too much time thinking about taking that cursed treasure.
Speaker 2:Say something out loud, like do something to remind you of the reality that you're actually in my favorite stories, tim, have you ever read the CS Lewis books the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the whole Narnia, yeah, yeah, yeah, one of my favorite ones in there is the Silver Chair, and you got this guy named Puddle Golem. He's kind of like a frog man, he's like a weird. He's like a version of Golem, but like a good version of Golem. He's like a happy well, when I say happy, I mean dreary all the time but kind of like. His character is kind of like an uncle Psy, you know kind of thing. Anyways, they go into this deep, dark cave where they're trying to rescue this guy and this witch, who's a snake and a sorcerer and all kinds of stuff, starts playing this music and putting them under a spell and convincing them that there is no sun, there is no upper world, there is none of that. You're making fairy tales, you're doing all this stuff, and so what he does is he sticks his foot in the fire and basically says pain is one of the things that just wakes you up to your senses, even when you're falling asleep and going under a trance, and it's an outward thing he has to do to remind himself of the reality that's actually there. And one of the things that you can do in your life like this is something I'll do. If I'm noticing myself staring at somebody that I shouldn't too long, or I'm noticing myself paying attention to a desire too long, or I'm allowing something to happen on a screen in front of me too long, I will literally say out loud nope, don't want that, and I'll move on. And just saying something out loud to confront the lie that is, that's going to take care of me or be a better mediator to me than God is, helps immensely.
Speaker 2:Bringing in backup helps immensely too. Invite other people in. Hey, you're struggling with something, call your buddy. Hey, I suck right now. Can you help me out? Will you pray for me? Just like, look, I'm going to bring up another verse to you real quick. Hey, I suck right now. Can you help me out? Will you pray for me? Just walk like, look in, I'm going to bring up another verse to you real quick.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I apparently got a lot of these today and I realized I did, but in Proverbs 24, one of my favorite right now this is verse five and six. A wise man is strong, and a man of knowledge increases in power. And he says this, for by wise guidance you will wage war, and the abundance of counselors, there's victory. Okay, if you're struggling in a fight against something, you got an idolatrous heart man. I got an idol in my life Listen to other people because you're under the treasurer's curse right now. Like you're not paying attention, you're allowing something to provide something for you that it should not, and if you don't bring in backup, oftentimes you're going to lose when the fight actually calls and when it happens. Been putting my heart on this way longer than I should I've been trying to get from it what I'm only supposed to get from you. I'm asking you to change this thing in me. I'm sorry, I've been, I've been, and functionally the Bible communicates it this way You've been cheating on me Like all throughout scripture.
Speaker 2:There's this massive narrative in the old Testament, especially of God telling Israel quit flirting with other nations, like in some. In some portions, especially in like Ezekiel, he's like hey, you're spreading your legs under every tree on the trail, like stop it, it's disgusting. You're perverting yourself with all these other things that can't take care of you. And I've taken care of you from the time you were a baby. I've raised you, I poured into you, I've given you the things that you needed, I cleaned you up, I've gotten you out of that area and I'm trying to bring you back. Stop, literally, like the language you use is quit whoring yourself everywhere. You know everywhere that you're going. And I don't think we think about it that way because we downplay the commands of God. We're thinking to ourselves oh, it's not that big of a deal, it's fine.
Speaker 1:And it's Just going to burn my family alive later and bury us in a wild box. You know, what sucks for me is when I hear stuff like that. It's like, well, this guy did that and they're great, they're fine, they're moving on in life where I want to be. So what's the?
Speaker 2:big deal, I think you lie to yourself. And then the third thing really an idolatrous heart does to him is it makes you lie to other people, because you take the first lie right and then you're like it's probably fine, and so then you invite other people in it. Case in point when Aitken is burying stuff in his tent you know what I mean and his family. Now they're involved in the lie, now they have to be a part of it. The rot spreads. Now the neighbors that definitely saw you burying stuff in your tent on your way back from the trip. It wasn't like he had a little purse full. You know what I mean. There was stuff going on that was a problem.
Speaker 2:And now other people are involved in that lie. It's the same thing again with Adam and Eve. Right, because Eve takes the fruit, because she believes it, and then the first thing she does is give it to Adam, who's standing there as well, and now he's involved in the same thing. And then when God confronts him, he's like it wasn't me, it was the woman that you put here, right? And now I'm extending this Idolatrous hearts tend to believe lies themselves and then extend lies to other people, because if the father of lies is the thing that is creating the idols. Then you begin to speak the language of the idols instead of the actual God that you're supposed to serve and you become part of this kind of nasty cycle of lying about things that are going on, which is why it's funny to me when I talk about the Catholic Church, because I feel like they're constantly stuck in some kind of We've got to define things really clearly here, because we want to look like we're doing the right thing, even though we're basically getting people to pray to Mary.
Speaker 1:Okay great.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a problem. You're not praying to the statue, you're praying through the statue. Right, okay, cool.
Speaker 1:Well, let me ask you you actually brought this question up years ago when we first got saved dude. Is prayer a form of worship?
Speaker 2:I think you have to say that it is, and that's what I was saying. When we talk about, you know, dahlia, hyperdahlia and Latria, and they're trying to parse it out and saying, well, some prayer is worship and some prayer is not. And I would say prayer is worship, so praying to saints is idolatry. Prayer is worship, so praying through something is ultimately idolatry, unless you're praying through Christ to the Father, which is praying to God, and if not, I think you're participating in some kind of lie. You're putting things in a place where you shouldn't, and you end up kind of hiding things and acting like, yeah, but it helps me, though.
Speaker 2:An area I see this is with I'm going to meddle I brought it up on another podcast, though, so I don't care Like yoga, oh yeah. So I go and I do this thing and I make poses with my body that are actual, like poses of Hindu gods, with the person creating this with the sole purpose of saying if I shape my body in this way, then I'm inviting that god into me to give me peace and whatever else to help me do this Okay.
Speaker 1:Or if it's just stretching.
Speaker 2:And it just helps me, right. So I tell myself it's just stretching, but if I'm being honest, I'm very intrigued by all the things that go along with it. Now I got crystals on my bookshelf because those seem to be helping me out too, and I started reading some things. Oh, they're just for fun, right, it's not a big deal. This to me is the same thing with, like smoking weed. You're like oh, it helps me, feel this, it helps me. Well, what's supposed to help you feel that, jesus, there's an authorized way to get peace and joy and hope and all these things. And there's an unauthorized way to get peace and joy and hope and all these things that are superficial and not really the real thing. And your argument is I'll do a better job serving God if he lets me do the idolatry thing too. Yeah, that's not going to work. And then we try to kind of hide that stuff, right, because nobody goes around in church saying I smoke weed. But a lot of people do, and they're still going and worshiping and telling themselves it's fine.
Speaker 2:Luke 12 always scared the crap out of me. There's nothing covered up that will not be revealed and nothing hidden that will not be known, according to. Whatever you have said in the dark, it will be heard in the light in which you have whispered in the inner rooms, will be proclaimed upon the housetops. I would say listen, don't deal in lies, whether that's lies you're telling yourself about the idolatrous heart that you're struggling with, or whether that's lies you're having to deal in now to get other people to be okay with the thing that you're doing. And I've seen this with stuff like homosexuality. Man, somebody is a Christian, they have a really good friend, and now they're really struggling with homosexuality and they met somebody and they've convinced them it's a good, monogamous, fine relationship. We both love Jesus. We haven't abandoned this.
Speaker 2:Okay, ultimately, that's idolatry. That's what that is. And now you're dealing in lies to try to cover up what the idolatry is that you're doing. And now they're inviting you into that lie too and trying to convince you persuasively, like Satan did with the apple, that this is fine and God wouldn't actually mean that he wouldn't be holding out on you for the things that he said right. Therefore, consider the members of your earthly body dead as it pertains to impurity and immorality and passions, evil desires and greed which amount to idolatry. This is the picture. Don't let those things destroy you the way that they want to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I was actually talking to my wife about this, because for me it's always been. I had a conversation with you a long time ago about when you get a rosary.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Remember this and you were nice about it and stuff, but I was telling you the reasons. Like I don't believe that it has power, but I believe it will help me get into a better place where I could talk to God. Yeah, idolatry.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:See, that's weird to me, I guess. Yeah, because I don't believe in the artifact itself, given anything, rather than allowing myself to commune with God. Better, right, you know.
Speaker 2:But I would say that the rosary is what is it Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's a, yeah, it's for the, it's a prayer, basically.
Speaker 2:Well, it's kind of a mediatorial element too. I pick this up, I play with these beads. The beads represent the things.
Speaker 1:It's got the cross on it, usually Jesus on it too Well, you follow a prayer along with the beads, yeah.
Speaker 2:And look if somebody is like hey, I hold some nails while I pray because they remind me of what Christ did. Ok, that, that makes a little more sense. Or you light a candle when you pray the rosary is a little bit more associated with praying the rosary for one Agreed. There's kind of a system behind that particular thing and they see a lot of these things as mediatorial, not as helpful for remembering.
Speaker 1:It's different, and so look, but if I view it that way, does it still matter?
Speaker 2:Here's another question, tim, could you play like crazy Eights with tarot cards? You know, or maybe there's a better analogy? It would be like the match game with tarot cards. Oh, I find the same one. Well, I'm not using it for that purpose, but I like the cards. They've got cool pictures on them and stuff. Maybe just don't.
Speaker 2:What's the attraction to it when you could use something else? Why use that thing? And I think it's dragon's treasure. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I think there's a reason that we're attracted to some things that we maybe shouldn't be when something else would do, and it's because there's something associated with it that actually is pungent. It is strong. There is a desire for me to want to do this, and I think we as Christians should try to avoid those things and be very careful about it, because they don't ever stop there. You know what I mean. Again, idolatry is like rot it never stays where it is, it continues to grow and then you find yourself in a place where you don't want to be, which is really the fourth thing that idolatry does. And even in this story with Aiken and the story any story in the Bible where somebody walks in, let's say, in line with their idolatrous heart or the idolatry that they're struggling with.
Speaker 2:It lies to you about your future. It tells you this will actually help me. This will be good If I take this treasure, if I eat this apple, if I sleep with this uh, bathsheba, you know, whatever it is, this will be a good outcome. It will provide for me the thing that I actually want. And everybody knows if you take the dragon's treasure, it's cursed you. It does not go well, but you convince yourself in the moment. This will help me get to the place that I want to go, but it does not take you to the place that you want to go. Pick any idol. That's how it works. I mean, it might work for you. For a second you feel pretty pumped about it, until you don't feel pumped about it at all, and now I literally you know that's why I like the story of the black pearl right?
Speaker 2:Like you now, I literally can't taste food. But I'm going to be honest with you. People, tim, that have struggled with addictions, with drugs, that's literally where they're at. Food doesn't taste good anymore. It doesn't matter, I have to have this or nothing else is good. We know these things internally.
Speaker 2:But if you stare at the idol, the treasure, long enough, you become captivated by it. Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied. Neither your eyes Close them. Fix them on Jesus, get your eyes up on things that will actually take care of you, and it goes a long way. And I do think, look, I do think there can be helpful tools to remind you of who Jesus is. I'm not saying there can't be To my point.
Speaker 2:I don't think shows that depict Jesus are in sin of breaking the second commandment. Although I'm OK If somebody lands there, I get at least why they want to be careful. I think we've taken it way beyond those things. And I would say, man, when there's arenas full of people for sports events, when they're throwing their hands up in the air, they're worshiping, you know what I mean. They're praising. They painted their bodies, they're going through weird, freaking tailgating rituals before the game. I won't change my socks because they haven't lost right Like the superstition is the word that we use.
Speaker 2:All we're saying is I have a strange attraction to try to leverage this thing as a mediator to get what I want. And again, the second commandment is about how God is not to be worshipped. Ultimately, don't worship me through these things and don't try to get from other things which you're only supposed to get through me, and our tendency is to do that with the stuff around us. We see these horoscopes and people trying to define the future with the stars, and we see this with literally. We call people icons. You know what I mean? It's like literally, it's like another word for idol. That's all that is, and it's a problem.
Speaker 1:Hey man, thanks for the chat today.
Speaker 2:Oh dang, has it been that long yeah?
Speaker 1:a little bit over actually.
Speaker 2:Holy cow, I had no idea I was ranting that much I wouldn't call it ranting no it is what it is.
Speaker 2:But hey, listen, just like I was telling you guys, pay attention to what's going on with your heart. Confront that stuff out loud, invite back up if you're actually struggling with it, and make repentance and confession a regular part of your day. Part of your day is you want to start clean with a real love for God. In the same way every day. You would want to start with a fresh love and an allegiance to your bride or your husband or your spouse or whatever relationship you're in. It's about allegiance to God first, and then it's about thinking through how you actually worship that God that you love, and you don't do that through other stuff or by believing lies or walking in a way that you shouldn't Focus on the good things that God has given you and trust his hand in your life. And if you start to let other things sneak into your life, I'm telling you right now they're lying to you about outcomes, they're going to make you a liar and they're going to hurt everybody around you. So keep it in mind.
Speaker 1:Awesome, cool, thanks man.
Speaker 2:Right on, guys. Hey, have a blessed day.
Speaker 1:Catch you.
